Conference misery::feline_v1

None of our cats are allowed outside and all but one have their claws.  The
one that doesn't lost them before we got her (we were at the vet and this
"person" walked in, gave the vet a cat, and declared that she was going on
vacation and the vet should either place the cat or put it to sleep; after
this "person" left, we asked for the cat).  The declawed cat (Fred) obviously
has the instincts for her claws since she'll go over to scratching posts and
make the motions (which we find really sad).  She's very hesitant about jumping
which is in agreement with things we had read about declawed cats.  Also,
her front pads are misaligned because the paws don't have the internal
structure to give the pads proper support.

All in all, we're against declawing.  The cumulative damage of several cats
(5-10 at any given time) over several years has been really trivial (like
totally fer sure).  Cat "trees" and scratching posts usually suffice.  We
only know one person whose cat did significant damage to her furniture (a
corner of a stuffed chair now looks like a cauliflower), but her relationship
with her cats has always been bizarre even at the best of times (they throw
things at her in the middle of the night, mess on the rug as soon as she
steps in the door, etc.).

						John

I find the idea of declawing extremely repugnant, but if it comes to a
choice between sending the cat to an animal shelter or having its claws
removed, I suppose I'd have to go along. I don't think anything would
persuade me to do it to one of my cats, though; we've never had serious
claw damage (except to my knees when one of the cats anchors its claws
in them and does that long stre-e-e-etch!).

If you want a pet with no claws, get a goldfish. :-)

-b

p.s. There's certainly time to wait and see. If the kitten doesn't scratch
furniture, then declawing won't be an issue...

My hope is that I can train the kitten to use the scratching post and keep
it away from the furniture.  I once had a chair whose arms were ripped to
shreds by my two cats at the time, but as I had gotten it at a tag sale and
didn't really care that much about it, I never discouraged the cats from
clawing it.  They didn't touch anything else (well, the rug, occasionally).

I guess what I'll do, then, is wait on the declawing.  Now I have to just
get the kitten!  I plan on going to the Humane Society, where it's extremely
difficult to leave with just one kitten!  (But I've done it before, and I
can do it again...!)

							-- Nina

P.S.  RE .1 -- Chayna has no compunctions about jumping at all!  She leaps
gracefully all over the place, so I guess the declawing didn't hurt her
jumping abililty.  She does rub the furniture alot with her front paws, though,
as though she were scratching.  I shudder to think what would happen if she
had her claws!  Though maybe she wouldn't do it so much if she did have them.
Who knows...?

You should note that the humane society, the one in Nashua, asked me if I
believed in declawing cats.  I think they would have rejected me as a
potential cat owner if I said I did.  They have lots of info on how bad
it can be for the cat - cases where the paws never heal or heal wrong,
cases where replacement claws start growing at odd angles from the bone...
I think it may be better to keep the kitten's claws clipped (very carefully,
the vet can show you how) and/or filed down, rather than removed.  We 
are training Koshka and Chorniy with a squirt bottle, but they usually
keep their clawing restrained to the foot-wiping rug at the side door, which
is fine with me.

   I have 5 cats and I wouldn't declaw any of them.  (Not even Pip who opened
an artery in my hand the last time I sprayed him with flea sray.)  I have seen
cats who have suffered personality changes because of declawing.  I've also 
seen cats who suffered physical complications because of improperly done 
declawing.  I trust my vet to do a good job as I'm sure you do yours (or you
wouldn't be going to him/her) but on the other hand, If it's not broke don't 
fix it.  Speaking of Pip and the slashed artery, be watching this note file 
for a note from me on a wonderful way I've discovered to deal with difficult
patients without undue trauma to patient or treater.

tlh

When I bought Zorro, my Maine Coon, I signed a contract that said that I
would never, ever declaw him. I saw this as right and proper.

	Jon

I can only echo the other sentiments expressed in the prior responses:  it
is painful, can be dangerous, and may be unecessary if you take certain pre-
cautions.  That is, clip and file the nails (they might protest but be frim;
tell themthe alternative!); provide a scratching post, and keep the squirt
bottle filled.  I bought an expensive sofa bed with a little fear and trepi-
dation, and so far I have only had one encounter -- fortunately the sleeve
was the recipient of the clawing and was easily mended.  As others have stated,
when faced with the choice of declaw or dispose of, opt for declaw, but cer-
tainly before the age of one year -- after that, the consequenses mount in 
severity.

cathy

Thanks for all your responses.  I'll adopt a "wait and see" attitude, but I
will consider declawing only as a *very last* resort.

						-- Nina

My girlfriend had her cat declawed because the thing was a
holy terror. Just walking by it was enough to make it attack
your ankles- with claws out, slashing away. The first time
I met this cat, I reached down to pet it, and it promptly
drew blood from four scratches on my hand. This cat had the
annoying habit of getting into the clothes closet and 
climbing up to the shelf using whatever piece of clothing
that happened to be handy. I still have scars on my hands,
and that cat hasn't had claws for almost a year. 

I never saw a cat that was so quick to use its claws. As this
cat had never been outside for a day in its life, I agreed
with the decision to have it declawed. It didn't suffer any
personality changes that I noticed, and it was a lot more fun 
to be around, afterwards.

I wouldn't blindly condemn declawing- there are cases that
warrant it. 

Charlie

P.S. This cat was the greatest roach hunter you ever saw. Losing
its claws didn't seem to slow it down any.

I had my cat declawed as a small kitten. She never had any problems and never
had problems jumping, or climbing where ever she wanted. She had seven toes on
each front paw, and after being declawed seem to be able to walk better. For a
TOTALLY indoor cat, I think declawing is a good idea. Pepper would make claw
sharpening motions on any furnature she wanted, and I never had to yell at her.
Whatever joy she might have lost not having claws I thing was more than made
up for by the freedom she had to "claw" at anything she pleased.

NOTE: If you EVER let your cat outside DO NOT DECLAW it.  I think that removing
only the front claws "so the cat can still climb trees" is a crock. An outdoor
cat needs ALL its claws.

Before we got our first cat, we decided it would be declawed, since we
had a lot of new furniture we were concerned about. However, once we
actually got the cat, and became attached, we couldn't bring ourselves
to do it. The vet (who I respect highly) insisted that it is entirely safe,
but stressed that it was a big commitment to keep the cat indoors.
We now have two cats, neither of which are declawed. They never will be.
In theory, declawing is OK, but when you think of it with regard to 
an animal you know and love, theory goes down the tubes. (All I can
think of is that its like removing your kid's fingernails.) My house
and furniture definitely has taken somewhat of a beating, because the cats
aren't perfectly trained - but that's life. Even though they're house cats,
they do escape once in a while. Anyway, that's my opinion. I hope that once
you have that cute little fuzzball sitting on your lap and purring his
head off, you'll decide against it.

mns

We've had our cat for seven years now.  We declawed him when he was about 2 
years old because we were moving in to a new apartment with new furniture.
All in all, if we had it to do over again, I don't think we'd do it.  I'm
not convinced that he suffered any permanent psychic damage (he's very 
affectionate) but it was a traumatic experience for us as well as him.  It
took several months before he was "back to normal".  It's hard to tell
how much physical pain he actually suffered.  Several years later, a claw 
started growing back and we had to get that removed too, since it came in
wrong.

Come to think of it, there is one area where he has changed 
psychologically since the operation: He *hates* to go anywhere in a car,
especially to the vet!

I'm just not sure it's worth it.  After all, if you consider your cat a
member of the family (like we do), which is more important, your cat's
happiness, or a little furniture damage? (I realize that your problem is 
complicated by the fact that it's not *your* furniture.)  I wouldn't do
it unless there was absolutely no other way to keep the cat.

I am also (as most people are) against declawing.  However, I would alse
recommend against trimming the cat's claws as recommended in an earlier response
Cats are very fond of keeping their claws sharp.  Cutting the claws only
causes the cat the scratch everything in sight in an effort to resharpen the
trimmed claws.  It is also too easy to trim the claws a little bit too
close, drawing blood and causing the cat great discomfort. 

What I would recommend to keep kitty from scratching is a commercial 
preparation called "Boundary".  This comes in a spray can and contains
an odor which is not noticed by humans but which cats find especially
obnoxious.  If you spray "Boundary" onto furniture, plants, etc. which
you kitty to stay away from and then rub the kitten's nose (gently)
into the sprayed area, kitty will avoid it like the plague.  It sometimes
takes 2 or 3 times to make the aversion permanent, but it is certainly
less drastic (and expensive) than declawing the cat.

denise

   Actually, cats don't scratch their claws to sharpen them.  They scratch them
to remove the old outer layer just as we clip our fingernails.  Thus clipping 
the claws will help *if* you can get your cats to put up with it.  
   
tlh

Well, this certainly has been an educational note!  However, as far as my 
situation is concerned, the point (!) has become rather moot:  last night we
acquired a 1-1/2 year old, declawed (front only), neutered male Silver Persian
cat.  We hadn't gotten a kitten yet, when early this week a friend of my 
mother's called and said she was looking for a home for this cat.  Well, we
were looking forward to getting a cute little kitten, but we decided to take
a look at the cat.  And of course we ended up bringing him home.  He's quite
friendly; when my mother's friend handed him to me, he immediately started
rubbing his head affectionately against my chin and face.  I was instantly
charmed.  He's also one of those rare cats that doesn't mind being held. 
So we decided to bring him home and see how he and Chayna got along; my
mother's friend said we could bring him back if they didn't.  (He wasn't her
cat, by the way.  She'd gotten him from a friend who couldn't keep him
anymore for whatever reason, and thought she had a home for it, but that fell
through.  So she called my mother, who told her I was thinking about getting
another cat.)  So far there's been no flying fur or raging battles.  In fact,
the cats largely ignore each other, or at least make a show of ignoring each
other.  I think they're keeping fairly close tabs.  The occaisional face-to-
face encounter has been accompanied by a bit of hissing and growling, but
not much.  So I think there's hope that they'll get along.  We shall see.
Anyway, the declawing issue has been deferred for a while (until we decide
to get another cat! [ha -- not in the near future, that's for sure...])

							-- Nina

"The declawing issue has been deferred...?"  Surely you're not thinking
of *that*!!!!

(-||-)

Groan...!

I'd hate to declaw my two household monsters, though some of the furniture has
suffered for it.  When I bought a new sofa, I bought the critters their
own new piece of furniture (a big cat tree, with a carpetted "house" halfway
up it), as well as making sure that the sofa did not have padded arms (they
are butcherblock).  I try to remember to clip claws every couple of weeks.
I have one of the notched-scissor type of clippers.  This is not a popular
activity (especially with Nebula, my half-Siamese, who struggled so much
once that I cut her toe.  She's never forgiven me.), but I'm bigger than either
cat is, and they get brushed, which is a popular activity, after I get done.
The worst part is that I also brush their teeth - the vet discovered that the
older beastie has gum disease on one side of her upper jaw - anyone else
ever tried to brush a cat's teeth??  I do both of them so the affected
feline won't think she is being especially picked on.

Good beasts, cats.

	In principle, I'm against declawing, but sometimes it may be necessary.
If it _has_ to be done, only have the front claws removed.  The back
claws aren't for 'jumping"; if a cat has to defend itself, it usually
clinches and claw/kicks with its hind feet.
	My vet, who is extremely cat-oriented, doesn't oblect to declawing,
but refuses to remove the rear-foot claws.

Steve

If a cat is a TOTALLY indoor cat, that never leaves the house except to
go to the vet, why does it need claws? 

My objections to declawing are:

  1) It ain't natural.
  2) Surgery should be done by the desire of the cuttee, not the cutter.
  3) Surgery should not be done instead of behavior modification.  Cats are
     intelligent animals.  You CAN teach them that certain behavior is not
     allowed, just as you have to teach kids.  Cutting out the animal's
     claws so you don't have to train it not to scratch your carpets and
     furniture is the coward's way out.  
  4) Often, it's a sign that the owner cannot or will not control the animal.
     (Not to say that there are not uncontrollable cats - I've had a few.  But
     the rule holds in general.)  As such, you're only treating the symptom,
     not the problem.  Undesirable behavior is still likely to occur in a cat
     with no claws, and then the only surgically "easy way out" is euthanasia.

You may ask, what is the difference between declawing and neutering/spaying, 
which I do endorse.  The difference is primarily in that I know behavior 
modification will work to stop a cat from scratching, having successfully done
it many times.  To my knowledge, behavior modification does NOT prevent a
female from going into heat, nor prevent a tom from responding.  Reproductive
control will unfortunately remain primarily surgical for cats.  

- Chris 

RE: .20

>If a cat is a TOTALLY indoor cat, that never leaves the house except to
>go to the vet, why does it need claws? 

Why do YOU need finger nails?

I think it's terrible to put an animal through painful, disfiguring major
surgery (and that's what claw removal is) just to suit the convenience of
the pet owner.  Cats will be cats.  They all come with claws, and they all
scratch things to keep them sharp.  If you don't like it, then keep goldfish.

--PSW

re: .21

Are you saying brainwashing is preferable to surgery?  My cat continued to
"scratch" things after she was declawed - except then I didn't have to scold
her.  It allowed her to behave more naturally in her environment, which was my
house. 

As far as the morality of "cutter" making a decision rather than "cuttee", pet
owners have no choice but to decide what is best for their pets.  For instance,
if your cat is ill or injured YOU and no one else must decide how (or if) he
should be treated.  Anyone who has ever had a seriously ill cat knows how
agonizing it is to have to decide between treating the cat, with only a chance
of recovery, and putting the cat to sleep, saving it from what might be
pointless pain and suffering. 

I don't think there is necessarily any relationship between cats scratching and
other behavioral problems.  Pepper was the best behaved cat I ever knew, she
just liked to scratch on things. 

re: 22 

If I disliked having my fingernails cut so much that I cried and struggled when
ever it was done, and if having them caused me to be scolded and punished, just
for doing things I though were normal, then I probably have them removed.  But
seriously, I realize that declawing involves major and painful surgery.  That is
why I had Pepper declawed at the same time she was spayed.  It meant only a
single trip to the vet, and a single session of surgery.  I know that she
underwent some pain, but I am convinced that it was less traumatic for her than
continual scolding for scratching things.  The surgery wasn't till she was six
months old, and by that time it was clear that she had no desire to explore the
great outdoors, so committing her to entirely indoor life wasn't cruel. 

The comment about getting a fish is silly.  Pepper was a cat, and acted like a
cat; she just didn't damage furniture, drapes or walls doing it.  I did think of
getting a fish once, but only to provide Pepper with "cat TV"! 

It is not my intention to convince anyone to declaw their cat, but to point out
that doing so (on a TOTALLY indoor cat) does not make the owner some sort of
heartless monster.  In some cases, it can lead to a happier life for both the
owner and the cat. 

Steve 

I am not advocating "brainwashing". I'm advocating TRAINING instead of
SURGERY.  Big difference in money.  Big difference in behavior. 

You cannot teach a cat not to scratch.  You CAN teach a cat not to scratch the 
Oriental carpet or the brand new sofa, given acceptable substitutes.  To use
another analogy that you probably won't like (you haven't liked any of them so
far), you can't teach a cat not to eliminate - but you CAN teach it not to use
the corner in the living room, since there's a perfectly good litterbox in the 
back room...

Cats don't need continual chastisement - if they are trained properly.  There 
should be no need for harassment once you get the message across.  Of course, 
if you CAN'T get the message across, then the alternatives come down to 

  a) getting rid of the cat,
  b) resigning yourself to the damage, or
  c) removing the cat's claws.

Having to make choice (c) doesn't make you a heartless monster.  Choosing (a) 
makes you a heartless monster.  Choosing (c) merely means that the optimal 
solution didn't work with this cat.  

The thing is, a lot of people consider it easier to cut than train.  You said 
it yourself - a little money, one trip to the vet, some pain that you didn't 
feel - as opposed to a few weeks of effort that you can't pay someone to do 
for you.  If you haven't tried training the cat - please don't cut it.  Get 
rid of it. Better for both of you.

- Chris

    
    	RE:.24
           
    >get rid of the cat, it would do both of you the best good (or
    somethinglike that)
    
    	I would think the same thinking applies to homeless and hungry
    people.  If you can't feed someone, just get rid of them...Right?
    
    	Come on. Their are all ready enough homeless animals out in
    the world. Don't you think that's going a bit overboard? I'm sure
    if the animal had a choise between being thrown into the pen or
    getting declawed and staying in a nice family, what do you think
    it's decision would be?
    
    	Todd New_cat_owner

    Re: .23
    
    Very well put Steve.
    
    Todd and I will soon be getting our kitten declawed.  She is young
    enough to heal up fast and to not miss having them around.  We plan
    on taking extra days off work to see to it that everything will
    be A-OK.
    
    I really do not feel bad about getting her declawed and definitly
    do not feel like a monster.  We love cuddles and would not put her
    through any unjustified pain.
    
    Tammy

    All it took for me to despise the practice was one picture story
    of a claw regrowing through the top of the cat's paw.
    
    Since then I've heard many stories of the pain and suffering that
    the cats can go through if the surgury does not go perfectly.
    Then there are the stories of the cats who can't climb a tree to
    get away from a dog - even indoor cats sometimes get out - despite
    the tales of a few declawed cats managing to climb.
    
    I think this issue is like discussing religion, though.  We'll
    probably never convince each other.
    
    --Louise

       I am adamantly opposed to declawing.  We will change our lifestyle
    rather than declaw a cat.  (I've also seen/heard the horror stories.)
    
       However, I also realize that not everyone is fanatical about
    cats like Gary and I are.  (To have 6 un-declawed indoor cats, you
    *have* to be a fanatic!)  So if given a choice, I'd rather see a
    cat live declawed than be put to sleep.  (Sort of like I'd rather
    live with a mastectomy than die of cancer.)  
    
       If I'm placing a cat though, I'll put it with someone who won't
    declaw it before I put it with someone who will.  (Course then I'd
    place it with someone who will declaw it and keep it inside, before
    I'd place it with someone who would make it an outdoor only cat.)
    
    tlh
    

    I'm curious -- why the objection to an outdoor only cat?
    I'm considering aquiring a cat that would be outdoor-only, as
    1) We could use a mouser.
    2) My wife is allergic to cats.
    
    	George

          To keep this from becoming an indoor/outdoor discussion, 
    I'm going to refer you to note 8. Inddor[sic] vs. outdoor. (I was
    the one who misspelled it in the first place so I can make fun of
    it.)  See 8.5 for what I wrote then.  (Before I was married, I was
    RAVEN1::HOLLABAUGH.) I'll also add a reply with more reasons.
    
    tlh
    

       See note #215 for ideas on dealing with cat allergies.
    
    tlh
    

    
    	215. is a sneezy note! |^)
    
    	Todd

    First, let me say that I'm very pleased to see some Colorado cat
    lovers in this file!
    As far as declawing goes, I'm basically against it. But like every
    controversial [sp] issue, you never really know what you'd do until
    you're faced with the decision. I've considered it from time to
    time but I just can't do it. His claws are part of his charm. I'm
    the only one who ever bleeds from them and I've learned to live
    with it! Sort of... 
    When it comes right down to it, it's the owners decision. Hopefully
    the owner wouldn't lose any friends...
    
    Laurie

    Add my vote to the against declawing side.  I have had many, many
    indoor cats ( up to 12 at one time), and I have never had a problem
    teaching them not to destroy my furniture, rugs or hands and arms.
    If any of you are interested in showing your cats you might consider
    the fact that most associations will not allow declawed cats to
    enter competition.  The method I have used to control scratching
    is 1) provide a scratching post. 2) keep the cats claws trimmed
    down. and 3) be consistent in your discipline and redirection efforts.
    Many people think that hitting a cat on the nose or body is a good
    way to get it's attention and punish it.  Not so!  Cats are intelligent
    animals and not only will they react agressively from this kind
    of treatment, they will associate the punishment with you.  This
    means that when you aren't home it will be "safe" to destroy your
    household.  The squirt bottle method is the best bet along with
    a good firm "NO!".  Then redirect the cat to his scratching post
    and be sure to praise him when he uses it.
    
    With behavior modification there should be no reason to declaw.
    This method worked for me on a cat that we adopted when he was 13
    years old.  You can teach an old cat new tricks.
    
    Jo Ann
    

    Declawing a cat is extremely painful.  What is actually being done,
    is that each "finger" is amputated to the first knuckle.  There
    can be severe problems with improper healing.
    
    I strongly recommend that the claws be clipped very carefully. 
    If your cat does not allow you to do this, try it when it's sleeping!
    This seemed to work for me and I have a very active 14 lb cat!!

    
    We recently started clipping one of our cats claws (the other
    was declawed long before we knew of the dangers of it...) but
    Sundae, the one we've started clipping, is doing much better
    about not clawing the furniture, carpet, etc.  And I was 
    surprised at how easy it was to clip his nails.  He just
    sat there like we'd been doing it all his life...he's about
    5 or 6 years old... and to my knowledge this was the first
    time they had been clipped.  (We got him from someone else
    a few years ago.)  
    
    Re:  declawing being painful, etc.  It was mentioned in an 
    earlier note that declawing caused "behavior problems" like
    biting....and it seemed to be true with Corby.  He can really
    get mean when he wants to.  So my mother and I think that it
    may be because he had been declawed.  
    
    Myra

RE: Note 38.37 by MYVAX::LUBY 
    
>    When all else fails.... blame it on declawing....
    
I'm sure if Deb Skaltsis were here today (instead of on vacation for a few days)
she would tell you about her cat Alexandra.  Deb found Alex as a stray and Alex
had already been declawed.  Deb has a multi-cat household (Alex was the 5th,
Nicki is the 6th) and not all of the other cats were really thrilled to have
Alex around.  Since Alex is the only declawed cat in Deb's house, she finds it
very difficult to defend herself and this causes her some anxiety and causes
her to be overly cautious around the other cats.  Other than that, Alex is a
real darling.

So yes, declawing a cat CAN cause behavior problems.

As one of the moderators of this file, I would like to remind our audience
that we are not interested in any flames on this issue as it's been debated
fairly thoroughly already.  Facts are quite welcome however.

Pam

    I can't really say that I'm for declawing.  I had thought of it
    before we got our little fur-bundle, but I must say I don't think
    I could go through with it now.  However, I will say to the behavior
    modification people - I had a Siamese cat that, in it's 19 year
    life span (this is one cat, mind you) totally destroyed:
    		1 sofa
    		1 loveseat
    		1 armchair
    		1 wing chair
    and cost my Mother and Father close to $2,500 in re-upholstering
    fees.  This was approximately 100 times more that the cat cost 
    originally (a fact that my parents continue to make me painfully
    aware of).  Yes, we did the squirt gun, the scratching post, the
    clipping of the claws (a ritual that took three people, three pairs
    of rubber gloves and a towel), the re-direction, the whole nine
    yards.  Yes, cats are intelligent.  And this intelligent cat 
    wanted to scratch the furniture. And if the cat wants to scratch
    the furniture, there's really not much you can do about it.  Our
    final solution was to drape everything with sheets at night and
    set up barriers to keep the cat out of the rooms.  She climbed the
    barriers and figured out how to get under the sheets. You could
    come downstairs at night and find a lumpy ghost clawing the top
    of the sofa.  She knew darn well she wasn't supposed to be doing
    it, but did it anyway.  She died with all of her claws.  My mother
    swears the next cat won't.
    
    Some cats are just smart enough to ignore you ;-)
    
    Mary-Michael

    Ming only destroyed one couch.  She did the same couch through
    several incarnations [read: new upholstery].
    
    In a totally non-cat-related frame of mind we bought a new couch
    one day.  Her only interest in it was to sleep wedged between the
    cushions.
    
    I guess she just wasn't a fan of tuxedo sofas.
    
      Annie

    My experience with declawed cats (at a humane society) has shown
    that many of them turn into biters to compensate for their lack
    of claws.
    
    Declawing is a very unnecessary surgery in my opinion.  It is
    comparable to removing your fingernails up to the first joint on
    your finger.  Recovery is painful and traumatic and complications
    often accompany this surgery.  Many times  arthritis develops in
    the joints of the foot or infection sets in.
    
    Once a cat has been declawed it remains defenseless for the rest
    of its life.  It cannot be an outside cat because its defense mechanism
    for fighting and climbing has been removed.
    
    There are many alternatives to declawing that should be used first:
    
    .Squirt guns loaded with cold water
    .Clip the nails weekly
    .Provide rug scraps or a special scrathing post
    .Most pet supply stores sell repellants that do not stain furniture
    
    Many humane societies and veterinarians are banning this cruel practice
    as more and more information becomes available on it.  Please, please
    give the alternatives a fair try and then really consider your cat's
    feelings if declawing becomes an issue with your pet.
    

    re. -1
    
    You mention that many humane societies and veterinarians
    are banning declawing.  Could you be more specific?
    Do you know of any veterinarians who refuse to perform
    the surgery?  How does a shelter "ban" declawing?
    
    I would really like further elaboration on this if it
    is not too much trouble.
    
    Thanks,
    Donna

    
    Please see other notes regarding the actual declawing process. 
    There is a process which does not involve "amputation".

    re .43
    K & H spay which offers low cost spay certificates, like the Friends
    of Animals certificates, specifically states in their application:
    
    "Cats who have been declawed will not be spayed through this program
    because people who can afford this costly unnecessary operation
    do not need our services."
    
      Nancy DC

    
    
         Gee what about all the people who adopt cats that have already
    been declawed?  I see enough of them at the shelter and in the local
    paper.  Hope they have some type of exception on that rule.
    
                                                                   
                                                               kim

    
    	Re: .42
    
    	I too would be interested in hearing of vets and humane societies
    	that ban declawing.  I know that certain breeders do, but a
    	humane society would be stupid to do this.  There are alot
    	of declawed cats in this world and many of them probably came
    	from animal shelters.  I find it hard to believe that a humane
    	society could ban declawing.  What are they supposed to do??
    	They can't take back a cat just because someone declawed it
        because chances are, the cat will be put to sleep.  I personally
    	favor declawing over euthanizing.
    
    	For the record, I have 2 declawed cats who are very happy
    	and had no problem recovering.  I have another cat who is
    	not declawed and is a terror with furniture.  He has destroyed
    	alot of furniture in his 13 years and we finally found something
    	that he will scratch that is not furniture.  An oriental rug!
    	Rather an expensive scratching post....  If it wasn't too late
    	in his life, he would be declawed too.  
    
    	If I get another cat, I will attempt to train him, just like
    	I did with my other two (I was too young with the old cat).
    	If he doesn't behave and scratch what he is supposed to,
    	I will get him declawed too.  I WILL make the attempt, but
    	I have no intent of sacrificing any furniture to any cats!
                                                 
    	This topic is about as controversial as abortion....
    
    	Karen
    

    I agree that the topic is as controversial as abortion.  It also
    comes down to a matter of conscience.
        
    While I don't personally agree with declawing, I would be sorry
    to think that cats who could have a good (although indoor) life
    would be deprived of a loving home because of declawing regulations.
        
    I also don't (personally) believe in keeping a cat indoors.  I can
    appreciate the viewpoint of those who do, but its not for my cats.
        
    However, I've had my cats spayed.  My decision was based on the
    following:-
        
    1)  No unwanted kittens taking the homes which could go to strays.
        
    2)  My tom cat wouldn't get ripped to shreds fighting.
        
    3)	My female cat wouldn't be worn out by litter after litter.
        
    4)  My personal convenience, and lets be honest that was the decider.
        I didn't want my house/other people's houses sprayed, tom cats
        hanging round when my female came into season, litters of kittens
        every few months to home.
        
    When I come into contact with owners of unspayed cats I try to
    persuade, though I don't attack them for not having their cats spayed.
    Declawing etc is taking the 'convenience' aspect one stage further.
        
    This is a bit muddled, but I guess what I'm trying to say is 
        
    1)  Understand the other persons point of view.
        
    2)  Attempt to persuade, not attack if you don't agree with their
        views.
        
    3)  Remember that in most cases they will consider the interests
        of the cat as well as themselves and if they can't live with the
        cat scratching the furniture etc it is surely better that the cat
        has a home minus claws than no home with them, providing that
        it is not let outside where it can no longer defend itself.
                                                      
    Kate                                              
                                                      

    BTW I stopped my cats clawing the furniture by keeping a squeezy
    bottle of water to hand for a few weeks and every time they scratched
    I just zapped them with the water.
    
    Harmless and they soon got the message.
    
    Kate

    RE .48
    
    
    
    
    		I like your logical attitude.  it's the same
    		   as mine.
    
    Sandi (Lightning, DejaVu & Thunder's mom)
    
    		3 indoor only declawed cats
    
    

    RE .50
    
    
    Oops.....
    
    Meant to say 2 declawed cats.  Thunder is not declawed at this
    time.
    
    Thanks E.T. for picking up on that.
    
    Sandi (Lightning, DejaVu & Thunder's mom)
    
    

    My opion:
    
    If you're worried about furniture, etc., don't get a kitten/cat then.
    
    Declawing is cruel and psychologically damaging.  I totally disagree
    with anyone who considers it, or any veterinarian who does it.  It's
    downright mean!
    
    Tammy Clark

    
    RE: -1.
    
    RAT HOLE ALERT...

re: .-2

We value differences in this notesfile.  You are welcome to state your
opinions herein, but kindly remember that others are also entitled to
their opinions and remember that we each have our own sets of values
and that it is not for others to judge them.

And for what it's worth...I have two partially declawed cats for whom not
declawing would have been cruel.  As for them being mentally damanged, gee,
I dunno...I thought they were pretty strange anyway.

Mary, with her moderator's hat slightly askew

    re: .52
    
    PLEASE continue to contribute your opinion, but please state it a
    little differently. e.g.  "In my opinion declawing is cruel", or  
    "It seems to me that declawing is psychologically damaging".  Its 
    a minor semantic point but there's a difference in meaning.   This
    leaves room for alternate views.
      There are plenty of folks who feel that properly performed 
    declawing is the desireable alternative to sending a cat back to 
    the shelter or having it put down or tossing it out.  These folks 
    also care about their cats and love them.  Its important to remember 
    that we all love our cats very much and none of us would react very 
    well to being told we are cruel.
    
    FWIW - I breed Scottish folds and my contract prohibits declawing
    without my permission. 
      Nancy DC
    

    Well put, Nancy!
    
    I don't particularly agree w/ declawing cats myself, but who am I to 
    impose MY opinion  onto someone else? I suppose it's better than
    neglect, right?
    
    Bonnie