Conference misery::feline_v1

    Those older homes have a lot of space between the floorboards,
    the walls and the studs......which unfortunately is a "haven"
    for the little furry critters.  If you use anything that may
    poison them, they may die behind a wall & smell, or your cats might
    get into the stuff.  Mousetraps work, but again, they are unpleasant
    and the cats might get into them.  
    
    Lynne

    > Those older homes have a lot of space between the floorboards,
    > the walls and the studs......which unfortunately is a "haven"
    > for the little furry critters. 
    
    Tell me about it!!  Our house is 107 years old, and recently I was
    cutting thru the upstairs floor so I could run some pipe... when
    I broke thru the floor and got a look inside, I noticed that the
    downstairs ceiling was COVERED with rodent droppings (rat-sized
    and up!)  I couldn't tell if they were ancient or relatively new... 
    probably a combination of both... our sewer pipe broke, and I'm
    positive that several sewer rats have made their way into our
    house... I trapped one in the basement, and we laid out poison and
    got another... and the plumber chased another one out when he was
    fixing the sewer pipe.  I think our rat troubles are over for now,
    though....
    
    [Yes, I know about the hazards of laying out rat poison with kitties
    in the house... that's why we only laid it out in the basement.  Our
    kitties are NEVER allowed in the basement... too many hazards down
    there for a small creature get in trouble with...]
    
    --jim
    

       Does this ever sound lika a familiar theme!!
      My house is also very old...but we aren't really sure HOW old. All we
    are SURE of is that when we did some repairs on the floor in the
    "mud-room", which was put on as an addition to the ORIGINAL house, we
    found under the old floorboards a newspaper dated 1892!! So the
    original structure is likely much older thn that... We still have a
    stone foundation, and the beams that are in the cellar are SOLID 6"X6"
    and are probably Chestnut...You coudn't drive a nail into them with a
    machine-gun!
      
       And, as in all of this sort of dwelling, the rodents will move in
    when the weather outside gets COLD....like in the late fall, or
    WET....like in the spring when the rains and melting start.  We've used
    mousetraps in the cabinets where the meeces find their way, but after
    catching numerous of the little critters, and STILL having the problem,
    I have finally come to the conclusion that poison is the ONLY way to
    get rid of them.....and not just ANY poison....the one that WORKS is
    "D-CON". This isn't a "plug"...I don't have a single share of "D-CON"
    stock...but this is an important issue.
    
      What I do is place a half-dozen of the "D-CON" Bait trays in the
    cellar...up under the overhang or if you have an un-finished area or
    access to an unfinished area that cna be closed off from the rest of
    the house that is a good area. Also, many of these older houses have
    either totally unfinished attics, or partially unfinished attics.
    Rodents have a tendendy to hang-out in these places. The "D-CON"
    actually attracts the little devils, and it is very effective.
    
      I totally agree with the cautions about making SURE that this stuff
    is NOT accessable to your pets... But I disagree that there is a
    potential of a poisoned rodent causing a stink by de-composing in your 
    walls or some other inaccessable area. THe original "D-CON" used the
    chemical "warfarin" as it's active ingredient. "Warfarin" is a blood
    thinner, and is used by the medical profession to alleviate blood
    clotting in stroke victims....in carefully administered dosages, to be
    sure. What it did to a rodent was thin it's blood to a consistency that
    it would not be contained inside the blood vessels, and it also would
    increase the thirst of the animal, and more water would thin the blood
    further....and the animal would literally bleed to death internally.
    The reaction and ultimate death is totally painless, according to every
    report that I've read, and the resulting corpse DOES NOT decompose in
    the normal sense...it simply DRIES UP. When I was a kid on the farm, we
    would find rat and mouse bodies that had been poisoned, and it was
    almost like they'd been "freeze-dried". They were weightless, like
    nothing at all except the skin and bones. When mice and rats are killed
    in a house,they dry up and do not smell.
    
      The NEW and IMPROVED "D-CON" doesn't use "Warfarin" any more....since
    the little devils built up some sort of immunity to it. The new
    chemical has one of those "Bi----De---Dexi-----Mega------Dupa----"
    chemical names that is totaly un-pronouncable. It does the same thing
    that Warfarin did, but it will kill the warfarin-resistant rodents.
    "D-CON" can be purchased in the local supermarket in the same area that
    they sell cleaning products and insect sprays usually. A package of 4
    bait trays will run you around $5.69. Unless you rip the walls out of
    your house after using it for many moons, you'll never see the dead
    rodents..
    
       How about this??  We usualy keep our dog's Milk-Bones in a cabinet
    over the stove, and we have periodically had mice get in their through
    some of the electrical cord access holes that former residents cut in
    the wallboard. When it happens, we try to treap, then usually give up
    and get the "D-CON". Usually we can tell when there are mice even if we
    don't see droppings because a couple of cats will be sitting on the
    stove, peering anxiously at this cabinet. SO the other night I didn't
    think anything special when "Smokey" was doing that....Imagine my
    disgust and absolute shock when I opened the cabinet door to see a
    half-grown RAT at the milk-bones. I was shocked, but got the old
    "D-CON" out and placed it in the areas noted above...rats and mice both
    are effectively eliminated by this stuff!!
    
      John McD

    
    
    
    That's what I am so worried about.  I can just see me groping in the
    dark to go to the bathroom and stumble over a mouse (or worse).  Believe 
    me, I would drop dead of fright!  Mice I can handle...rats I can't.
    
    I am renting the house so I am going to call the Landlord and tell him
    of my dilemma and let them handle the situation.  If they call in
    a professional exterminator (which is what I am hoping they will do) I 
    will send Otis and Tiffany off to the vets for a couple of days.  
    Besides which - I also want those holes filled.
    
    Another question!  Can they chew through the walls into the rooms?
    And, if they entered in a wall - would they exit out the same way?
    I have visions of me laying there in bed one night and this 'creature'
    coming out of the walls.
    
    Don't mean to sound paranoid about this (I am sounding paranoid, aren't
    I!!!)....or can I rely on Otis some for taking care of the problem.  
    They (mice) must know there is a cat around, right????
    
    Marilyn
    

      Rats can chew through just about anything if they want to badly
    enough. They have been known to chew their way into sealed food cans.
    However, they usually have sufficient food around a home that they
    don't need to do that. Mice, on the other hand, can get through the
    tiniest little cracks that you would SWEAR that a fly couldn't get
    through.
    
      Exterminators may get rid of TODAY'S crop of rodents, but unless they
    leave some sort of poison the rodents will be right back. Thats why I
    don't bother with them, and use the "D-CON" on my own...
    
    JM

    When I was a "starving grad student" I lived in a basement
    apartment of abuilding that had mice and cockroachs.  Yeeck.
    I got in the habit of doing two things: (1) storing food like flour,
    beans, grains, etc. in the cabinets in glass jars (mason jars,
    old giant mayonaise jars)
    and keeping stuff like bread in the refrigerator (toast or nowadays
    microwave to warm it up).  If you can remove their ability to
    get to any food, you've won part of the battle and taken one worry
    off your mind.  Should work for teh other noters Milk Bones as well.
    Come to think of it those giant metal cans that popcorn comes in
    would be good for large storage.
    

    I have a large pantry that I am in the process of putting things like
    flour, sugar, macaroni and cereals in Mason Jars.  The only problem 
    I might have is leaving Purina Cat Chow out for Tiffany.  She doesn't
    eat anything else...and only on a whim.  She isn't fed on a schedule
    it's always out for her.
    
    How do I break her that habit..it would probably help to solve the
    problem.
    

    Actually, i suspect Tiff may spend a good deal of her time
    sitting in front of her dish waiting for a mouse snack.  MAybe
    this will solve your problem :-)
    

    RE:  8
    
    ...wish Tiff would get the message.  She doesn't have a clue.  Let's
    see, a description of Tiffany.  Definately a yuppie cat.  She is
    loveable, sweet, friendly, spoiled.  She knows how to relax and it is
    beneath her to 'chase' anything....or get dirty!  
    
    Otis, on the other hand, LOVES the cellar, gets high sticking his nose
    and paws in dirt (i.e. potted plants), can smell food down the
    street, loves water (drinking and playing in), understands the English
    language perfectly, and he struts around like he's god's gift!  Otis
    is the one that will do the stalking...he is very alert.  And, the
    fact that he weighs in at 25 lbs - definately has an advantage.
    
    My paperboy brings his dog (Drac) with him to collect on Saturday's.
    Otis greeted Drac at the door last week and Otis stared him down.
    The dog DID NOT move.  Otis on the other hand, sniffed and checked him
    out - turned his head (hrmmph) and walked into the kitchen.
    
    M
    

    .....The reason I am against poison is 1) I think it's
    cruel causing suffering (shudder!) and   2) a dead mouse 
    or rat carcass from eating the "D-Con" or whatever, can 
    be in turn, eaten by a dog or cat, and they become poisoned.
    
    Of course, I am a little biased as I lost a cat from
    poisoned gopher bait when I was 6.  They intended to
    poison the gopher, only my cat ate it instead.  Not
    a nice thing to come home to from a family vacation...
    a note from the house sitter saying my beloved pet
    was gone.  
                
    Besides, it would gross me out to think of the dead
    bodies behind the walls.....ugh!  I'd want them out
    of the house, bag n' baggage! :-) :-)
    
    Lynne

      Re .10
      You are entitled to your beliefs, but I don't agree that they are
    necessarily valid. Have you ever seen a mouse that has been caught in a
    trap?? I've had numerous mice maimed by the trap, yet they were alive
    when I found them...bleeding and severly injured. Traps can be one of
    the cruelest things ever invented...
    
      As I also explained, the "D-CON" does NOT cause the rodents to die in
    agony like Strychnine and/or Arsenic did. They first of all get
    extremely thristy, and go to the place where they usually get water.
    Then they go BACK to their den, where they become extremely tired, fall
    asleep, and simply do not ever wake up. The poison used for Gophers
    that I'm familiar with was a Strychnine-based material that not only
    killed gophers, but firds, squirrels, sometimes dogs too, because it
    was typically a paste that was spread on a piece of bread and left in
    the gopher burrow. Neither Strychnine nor Arsenic cause the animal to
    dry out...the carcass is entirely whole and IS susceptable to being
    eaten by many animals--with fatal results. Unfortunately, this stuff is
    still used today in the west in some areas.
    
     
    
      JM

inadvertently, I found I'd created a humane mouse trap - one that allows you to
move the mice out of your home and release back into the wild, preferrably
far from home....

purchase a tall container with a fitted lid - plastic or metal will do, it
must have smooth sides and be at least two feet tall and opaque.  Cut a small, 
mouse-size whole in the top.  Put about 2 inches of kibble in the container.
Place the container where your cats cannot get the mice and where the mice
can get to the container.  Check it every day.  You will find mice in it,
completely healthy, however a little unhappy at their predicament.  Move
the container, keeping it upright, to the release location, remove the
lid of the container while pointing it AWAY FROM YOUR BODY AND FACE....
they will generally jump right out once they see daylight....or tip over
the container and they will run away.  refresh your "bait" occasionally.
Keep watch on the container and you should soon remove all brave foragers
from your colony.  I found a sturdy, medium sized plastic trash can with
fitted lid worked very well....of course, in my case, a mouse put the little
mouse-sized hole in the lid of the container and promptly fell in the can.
My roommate lifted the lid to fix the dogs' dinners and was hit in the
chest by the poor mouse - who was knocked back into the can.  Marge shrieked
and clamped the lid back down on the can, trapping the poor little creature
again.  I jumped to the rescue by moving the can outside the garage and
tilting it down, pulling off the lid, and watching one very scared mouse
run for the hills.  After that, I found a mouse in the can approx. once
a week and began to drive them down the hill to the open field.  In a month,
I stopped finding them - I presume I had transplanted the whole colony.
Iams dog kibble seems pretty irresistable to them.  I, of course, immediately
purchased a metal can for the dog kibble - but kept our humane mouse trap
until all mice appeared gone.

re: d-con.  It is, as you say, not necessarily cruel to the mice/rats, but
it can be very hazardous to the health of the small animal that eats the 
mouse/rat - an increased risk because the rodents are VERY thirsty and 
beginning to get sleepy....conditions geared to make them more willing to
take risks and less likely to outrun a pursuer.  I believe the boxes indicate
that the bait is not considered safe around small children or pet animals...
or, at least they used to say that.

    The last reply reminded me of my experience with an outbreak of
    mice in our apartment in downtown San Jose.  We had mice all over
    the apartment one winter.  My husband immediately went out and bought
    a bunch of traps which we placed.  Well, after a couple of nights
    hearing SNAP, SQUEAK, SQUEAK... I'd had enough.  He got a little
    upset as well when we found one little guy caught by his nose. 
    We went right down to Orchard Supply and bought a "Tin Cat".  This
    is a metal box that is designed to catch the mice alive.  It worked
    wonders!!  The very first night we caught a little mouse, and the
    next morning we took the Tin Cat, some seed and cedar shavings down
    to the Guadalupe River.  We were determined to give this little
    guy a new home!  We spent a few minutes digging up a little burrow,
    lined it with cedar shavings and deposited all the seed into it.
     We were so pleased with ourselves for being so kind to this little
    orphan.  Surprise, surprise!  When we opened up the Tin Cat over
    the burrow, the little mice jumped straight up and ran for his life.
     Well, hopefully he eventually found his home. :)
    
    Kim

    Re .12 - You misunderstood me.......I do not like poison,
    mousetraps, stickytraps (Like flypaper, the mouse gets stuck
    when he walks on it, and struggles to death-ugh!) or any type
    that kills or causes suffering. (Including letting the cats get
    them (the squeak of terror echos in my head & heart for days)
    
      (I do what .13 does......) 
    
    Poison is poison.....and a chemically induced intense thirst
    sounds (to me) like suffering....and since the mouse cannot 
    say whether s/he is suffering or not.........
                                                        
    But, I'm not attacking your use of D-CON, BTW.
    
    Lynne

        Thre is no question that you will catch numerous meeces with
    traps--whether they are the standard or the catch-and-release type.
    However, there should be some better understanding of ehat you are
    contending with here. 
      (1)If you have truely been infested with MICE--then you will not
    cateh them all in 99.9% of the cases. 
    
      (2)If you have been infested with RATS, you will not catch them all
    in 99.999999999% of the cases. 
    
      (BOTH of these species very quickly become "trap smart", and will
    soon avoid the traps. It is also thought that Rats have an ability to
    pass-on the instinct to avoid traps to their offspring. Rats also learn
    to avoid most types of poison after a period of time....and both rats
    and mice have built up a certain amount of immunity to the older type
    of "D-CON", which contained "warfarin" as the killing agent, but
    neither rats nor mice have 'learned' to AVOID this poison.)
    
      (3)If---as MOST of the cases this time of year turn ot to be---you
    have become host to MEADOW VOLES, or WOOD MICE, then ther IS a chance
    that you may catch all of them. However, since neither of these species
    typically reside in houses, except during this time of year or in the
    fall when the cold may drive them out of their NATURAL habitat,(Either
    brush and/or wood piles, or underground burrows) the most LIKELY result
    will be that after the spring water diminishes, they will simply move
    back to their natural environment on their own...
    
    
       Lastly: There have NEVER been any reported cases of a pet eating a
    rodent killed by "D-CON". Unless a dog were to dig out a burrow of
    freshly killed mice, and have aberrent taste preferences, the
    possibility of this occurring is about nil. The carcass of a "D-CON"
    killed rodent has an odor that is unpleasant to dogs and cats, and
    unless the body is discovered within a day of the demise, there won't
    be anything left to eat anyway. 
      The animals that have been killed that DO present a problem are those
    killed by OTHER types of poisons. People still us Arsenic paste,
    Strychnine, and some other types of posons, which not only leave dead
    bodies that are attrctive to dogs and cats, but the poisons themselves
    may be eaten by animals other than those they are intended to kill.
    Recent studies indicate that MANY animals and birds such as Eagles and
    Hawks have been killed over the past years form eating this sort of
    kill.
      
    
       However, to analogize a bit....
      These "old" poisons are the WWII, Korea and Viet Nam's of the war on
    rodents... "D-CON", on the other hand, is the "DESERT STORM" technology
    of the rodent war...it AINT the same old stuff!!
    
    
       JM

>       Lastly: There have NEVER been any reported cases of a pet eating a
>    rodent killed by "D-CON". Unless a dog were to dig out a burrow of
>    freshly killed mice, and have aberrent taste preferences, the
>    possibility of this occurring is about nil. The carcass of a "D-CON"
>    killed rodent has an odor that is unpleasant to dogs and cats, and
>    unless the body is discovered within a day of the demise, there won't
>    be anything left to eat anyway. 

I didn't know that....better living through chemistry for sure!  Luckily,
our residential area is relatively new and the only kind of rodents we see
in our homes are the field mice-type....of course, in the future we can
look forward to roof rats moving in - but not until the trees get bigger...

For general information:  one area that even the most conscientious 
housekeepers seem to overlook is the pet food connection.  Purchase a 
METAL trash container big enough to keep your cat/dog food and make sure 
the lid FITS.  Place the bag of pet food in the container and keep it covered.
The best way to deter infestations is to keep food as unavailable as possible.
The small (approx. 20 gal size) metal trash cans I purchased are the best
investment I've ever made in controlling infestations.

      Re .16
      Well, that's what I saw in an article on the stuff....I've never
    actually 'sniffed' a dead mouse..;-)
    
      I totally agree that there ARE some things that you can do to
    alleviate the rodent intrusions. Leaving food of any kind exposed is an
    invitation to them...and "food" is a broad definition when it comes to
    rodents. Trash collected to be disposed of is a good attractor, as is
    dog/bird/bunny/horse//goat/cow or any other animal food. Rats 'n mice
    are not finicky eaters...about anything will do. 
    
      Metal containers, sealed glass jars, etc are good storage containers.
    In some of these 'old' houses though, there are so many holes and
    nooks and crannys that they can get into that it is hard to totally
    eliminate them.. With 5 cats in the house you'd think they would have
    more sense than to even try to come in...but no such luck...we still
    get some every year...
    
    JM
    

    An update to this note:
    
    Found out that it wasn't mice that Otis was sniffing - but he had found
    an 'ants' nest in the wall.  They only came out (the ants) from the
    nest in Spring!
    
    Though they can be pesty...at best it's better than facing a mouse
    in the middle of the night.
    
    M