Conference misery::feline_v1

	What an awful thing to have happen to your cat!  Please tell your
	wife that we send our sympathies to her.  

	I can't comment on what to do about the dogs, because I don't know
	what your local ordinances are like.  You might want to call the
	Animal Control officer in your area, if there is one.

	As far as getting another kitten in Colorado, I checked a copy of
	CatFancy, and though I couldn't find any breeders listed there
	from Colorado, I found this item:

	"Let us tell you about these fascinating cats.  Write Main Coon 
	Breeders & Fanciers Associate.  Send $1 and large SASE to MCBFA,
	2669 Skeel St., Brighton, CO 80601."

	Sandy

>    To make a long story short, I want to get her another Maine Coon,
>    but was told it would be next to impossible to find one here in
>    Colorado, and that it would be VERY expensive.   Does anyone have
>    any input.. ???  
    
Jeff,

as much as she might want the cat, it sounds like a very dangerous place for
you to have one...vicious dogs next door make it too dangerous.  A cat or
kitten can get out far too easily -- especially when they are young and
curious.

If you do decide to get a cat, I'd make sure that ALL house members were
dedicated to keeping the cat inside, that the cat had all claws ( you can
train a cat to scratch a scratching post - just keep at it and get a sisle
rope covered post), and I'd lean towards getting an older cat that was
used to staying indoors - perhaps adopting one from the local shelter.  I'd
also FIRST talk to local animal control about what you can/cannot do about 
those dogs - they sound far too dangerous.

The person with the dogs should have his/her head examined....what if a
small child had been in the yard??????

re: where to get a Maine Coon cat - buy a copy of Cat Fancy Magazine or some
other cat magazine.  Write to them for information about local cat fancier's
organizations.  They can point you to local breeders if any.  The price is
worth it for a healthy cat, in my opinion.

    Please tell your wife how sorry I am about the cat.  I do think that
    you should talk to animal control (or the police, if there
    is no animal control officer) about the dogs;  if the officials
    don't care about a cat, ask tehm what if it had been a child.
    How terrible that it wasn't even possible for you and your wife to
    bury your pet.  An indoor cat might be okay if you were certain that
    there was no possibility of it getting outside.
    

    My god, please extend my sympathies to your wife - I feel so very bad
    for both of you.
    
    I too think that you should contact your local officials and see what
    can be done.  It seems as if these dogs shoulnd't be left loose - what
    if it had been a child?  How insensitive of these people to not say
    anything while watching your wife go through hell!
    
    I hope you can find another Main Coon - they are wonderful cats - I
    would have a serious talk with these neighbors when you do get the cat
    and make sure that it does remain in doors - or perhaps you could build
    a cat run if you want to let it out for fresh air.
    
    My thoughts are with you - please keep us posted.
    
    Giudi +3

    I'd be careful of a cat run.  I imagine that large dogs
    could get into one.
    

    Part of what is going on is real grief, complicated by the
    dog situation.  I wouldn't expect your wife or you, for that matter, to
    "calm down" for some time.  When things are a little more settled,
    you might want to consider visiting a shelter and seeing if you can
    find a Maine coon look-a-like.  Both of my neighbors' cats are
    big fluffy lookalikes.  At least your neighbors finally did tell
    you what had happened;  maybe they feel badly and you can work
    something out with them about protection for future cats.
    

    What a horrible thing to happen.  
    
    I have 2 names in Mass, I don't know if they are still around, but when 
    I visited a cat show awhile ago to check out the breed, I picked the
    breeders who were the most friendly and informative.  In fact, one stud
    did very well in the rings I watched...so quality was there as well.
    Anyway, if you don't find any leads out that way, maybe you could
    work w/ a breeder in another state and have the cat flown to your home.
    I've chaperoned several cats for feliners now between LA and
    Boston...so it's very do-able.
     
    Karen had a good point (.6), and it's possible that the neighbors
    would want to prevent this from happening again.  If thats not the case
    then maybe mentioning it to the dog officer would be the way to go.
    
    Good Luck with your search....our thoughts are with you-
    
    Michele & Nippa
    
    

    I don't know where in Colorado you are, but there is a pet supply 
    store in Colorado Springs that has some business cards of cat
    breeders posted.  I'm pretty sure I saw a couple of Maine Coon
    breeders up on the board.  The store is called Colorado Pet Vet,
    (719)599-5611.  They're located on Austin Bluffs Parkway just 
    east of Academy Blvd.
    
    I'm sure sorry about your cat and I hope you'll find another baby
    to love.
    
    Kitty

    Things like this infuriate me.  People who raise animals that are part
    wild (wolf mixes and such).  I know that people will probably jump down
    my throat on this one, but I would pursue having those animals put down
    and let your neighbors see what it feels like to miss a pet they love.
    Their behavior was unforgivable.  And to put your pet in a bag and
    throw it in the dump...like garbage.  They make me sick.
    
    Nancy

I am also very sorry to hear about your loss, as well as the pain involved in
the other aspects of the situation.

Somewhat along the lines of "animal control ordinances" and such, I am left
wondering if the fence that the dogs jumped had been intended to contain them.
Many folks don't realize what is necessary to keep a determined animal from
escaping.

Leading into the escaping cat syndrome...Ignorant as I have been in the past
(pre-kitten era, ya know?) I was impressed with the "airlock" that was at the
"Pat Brody" shelter.  If an uninvited critter goes out the first door, you get
a chance to correct the situation before it's too late.  We have a (sort of)
similar situation going from house to garage (when the garage doors are shut),
but the front door is the bigger problem, especially since that's how we let
Tigger out.  Maybe some similar kind of setup can be devised if necessary.

And, of course, making sure everyone knows not to let the cat(s) out!

Jill

       As the owner of 11 dogs, I have NO TOLERANCE for the owners of these
    dogs!! I would certainly take this to the authorities! Dogs that are
    not controlled--and any dog that goes off their own property and onto
    someone elses and kills ANY animal is NOT controlled--are trespassing,
    and if you were there at the time and picked up a 357 Magnum and blew
    the dogs away you would have been totally justified and protected by
    the laws in most states...and with the hunting/gun influence in CO I'd
    be very surprised if it were not so there. Dogs are NOT protected when
    they pull stunts like this. I'm sorry!! This is UNEXCUSABLE and those
    people and dogs should be made to provide restitution in some way, even
    if it means that these dogs must be destroyed! 
       It is extremely important to me as a dog AND cat owner (4 cats too,
    and all get along fine, thank you!) to be RESPONSIBLE for your animals
    and to allow your animals to harm and/or bother other people or
    property in ANY way is irresponsible. This boils me....I see this sort
    of garbage all the time, and the animal usually gets hurt or blamed
    when the HUMAN--or what passes for one--is the one who should be
    punished. Too bad we can't put some dog OWNERS to sleep instead of the
    dogs!!
    
       As for Maine Coon availability in CO: How far are you from Littleton
    Colorado? Not being fiamiliar with the state, I have no way of knowing.
    Anyway..in Littleton:
    
             RockCoon...Grand Champion Bloodlines...Show, breeder, pet.
    Home-raised brown, red and dilute tabbies. Health Guaranteed. CFA,
    TICA, MCBFA. 303-979-5399. Jeff and Debbie Diehl, 12159 Little Haystack
    Mountain, Littleton, CO 80127.
    
       There are also a couple in TX and one in SD which are at least
    closer than Mass...
    
       Sorry to go on about the dogs, but this is one of my biggest
    hot-buttons. 
      
    
      John McD

       By the way....the name/address of the breeder in .11 is from a
    PUBLISHED listing of over 700 catteries that appears monthly in "CATS"
    Magazine, and therefore is considered to be "in the public domain"
    
       Funny thing is...The Maine Coon Breeders & Fanciers Association is
    located in at 2669 Skeel St., Brighton, Colorado.....
    
       A buck and a self-addressed stamped envelope(large) sent to this
    address Attn: Corresponding Secretary, Gail Mitchell, will get you some
    literature on these cats...
    
    JOhn McD

       Please accept my heartfelt condolences for you and your wife.
    This is horrible!  It's beyond horrible!  I don't even have a word
    available to describe what has happened here!  I would most certainly
    take this further.  I think you should first sit down with those
    *&&% neighbors whom I have no printable words for either, and have
    them explain how they can knowingly do what they did to your cat.
    It is beyond any explanation I can think of!  The mental anguish this
    has caused demands to be rectified in some manner.  Check to see what
    your local laws are. 
       I know how you feel about the Coons.  My Ruby was the love of my
    life, he died of leukemia several years ago.  What a love he was!
    Out of the many, many cats I have known and loved over the course of
    my life, there were those certain "coon" traits that made Ruby special.
    I do hope you can find a new friend.  By the way, there are many coons,
    some even purebred that can be found at shelters.  My Ruby had been
    an abandoned cat.  You might want to give that a try.
       I am still in shock after reading this story though!  I am trying to
    imagine how I would feel, the violation - wait till I tell my 10 cats
    when I get home.  They will NOT believe it either.  Maybe when all us
    cat lovers go home and give our babes a squeeze and tell them this sad
    tale, you'll have a large troup of angry kitties coming to Colorado to
    tear up 2 horrible dogs and their owners!   Seriously,  I do hope you
    and your wife can find a way to handle this and find a new friend.
    Please do let us know how everything works out.  We all care!
    
            Denise and the gang of 10

Thank you all so much for the heart felt good wishes.  I can't put 
into words how much this means to both of us.

It's funny how anger seems to be taking over both Cindi's and my emotions.
At first I was stoic, then sad, then pi$$ed !  Cindi had to stop me from 
going over and plugging those animals with my pop gun (described in previous
entry - ;).

We've decided to pursue a criminal complaint on the animals (and owners - funky 
laws in Woodland Park).  Pam Brady, local code enforcement officer, explained
that first offense vicious animal type complaints usually produced a stiff
fine (to the tune of $250 - each !), but was somtimes suspended in order for
the people to put the money towards a proper dog run; in this case:

6 feet tall, or better 
2 feet buried underground
Overhead fencing
etc...

A very expensive proposition.  If I know the neighbors, they will be forced
to take the fines and get rid of the animals.  I feel bad about that - I know
how I'd feel, but I HATE those dogs (and I love ALL animals).  I'm sure the 
neighbors will hate us, but hey...  If they don't get rid of the animals and 
don't build the run, they'll get wacked with a second offense with fines(x4!).

Anyhow, in defense of dogs in general - We have four dogs (3 Golden Retrievers
and a yellow lab - just like ole yeller), and CB got on FAMOUSLY with all
four - and all the dogs visibly miss CB.  Ever seen a 6 month old golden MOPE ?
It's not a pretty sight.  :(

Also, up in Woodland Park, it's mandatory to keep you kitty inside - Pam caught 
a 240lb mountain lion less than a 1/4 mile from our home.  There are lots of 
predators (beautiful predators too!) up in the Rockies...

Again, thank you all so much (for the pointers and condolences).  We'll
keep you all posted.

Jeff (and Cindi - and Sting, Marshall, Dude,and Scratch)

Jeff,

please be careful that your neighbors do not retaliate against your dogs.
Perhaps it would be beneficial to first talk to the neighbors and explain that
you feel the dogs are a danger, not just to animals, but to small children
that might get in the way of the dogs when they are attacking their pets....
and make it clear that you are NOT going for revenge, but to protect
your neighbors, your guests, and yourselves.  Perhaps you can convince your
neighbors that they must either get rid of the dogs or fence them properly
as you described.  There are enough publications out there now that talk of
the danger from these hybred wolf-crosses -- maybe you can also hand a copy
of an article to them when you talk to them....the local library can probably 
assist in getting you reference material and getting copies made.

If that fails, at least they will know that you are not just retaliating
against them for what happened to your cat....it may help protect your dogs.
Also, once a complaint is filed (and I do believe you must file one - these
animals are too dangerous to be around people and pets), make sure that your
dogs are inside when you are gone...and patrol the yard looking for poison
before allowing your pets outside as a precaution.  The pseudo-macho mentality
that leads people to purchase/breed these hybreds in the first place can also
justify killing dogs to "punish" people for imagined offenses.

     Re .14
     
       Jeff,
      I can certainly understand the feeling...but don't feel to harshly
    against the dogs. I'm a firm believer that there are NO "bad dogs",
    only bad people. If these animals had been treated with dignity, and
    controlled as they should have been to begin with, the tragedy would
    not have occurred. 
      As for the retaliation aspect...while this is a possibility, I had  a
    similar situation in a previous home with a neighbor, and when the
    veiled threats occurred, I and a police officer paid this individual a
    'friendly' visit, and we were able to convince him that he would be
    much better off if he became a GUARD for our house, because the officer
    made it very clear that no matter WHAT happened to my property, he
    would automatically be arrested and charged with it!! And the officer
    added that the guy had better hope the house never got hit by
    lightning... never did have any more trouble with that dude....
    
      JM

>      I can certainly understand the feeling...but don't feel to harshly
>    against the dogs. I'm a firm believer that there are NO "bad dogs",
>    only bad people. If these animals had been treated with dignity, and
>    controlled as they should have been to begin with, the tragedy would
>    not have occurred. 

if these "dogs" are, in fact, wolf-hybrids, which are becoming increasingly
popular in Colorado and other western states...then they aren't dogs at all...
they are wild animals and the only effective control is to keep them away
from domestic animals and humans that they do not "know".  We've had some
folks in California get themselves in very deep trouble with these animals.
They aren't really trainable or controllable.

I'm sad for you too, and what happened seems brutal. Since the neighbor does
have a fence up, at least the neighbor tried to prevent their dogs from 
getting out.  It seems that since they took so long to tell you, that they 
were ashamed of what happened, and were afraid to confrontat you.  (In spite 
of what happened, I feel better that your wife only has memories or your baby 
at home!)

You are definitely justified in your anger.  Even so, I always look for ways
to put anger to rest.  If your neighbors are sorry for what happened, maybe 
they would voluntarily pay for a new kitten?  If you want to avoid confrontation
maybe you could put a letter in their mailbox?  Of course I don't know what 
their attitude is like, and if they're not sorry, pressing charges will be 
appropriate as well.  

Best wishes,
Tanya
(on the east coast in Marlboro)

      Re .18
       If this were a NORMAL circumstance, I may have some reason to agree
    with the "peace" method. However, this is not the norm. 
       Wolf-dog hybrids are explosions waiting to happen, and since the
    owners of these particular animals have proven by the incident that
    they either do not understand waht they have or do not care, there must
    be a more practical solution. 
    
      It is a proven fact that there has NEVER ONCE in the history of
    mankind a documented case of a WOLF attacking a human. In every
    reported case that has been recorded throughout history, it has been
    discovered that the animals attacking humans were wolf-dog crosses.
    These animals retain the untrainable aspects of the Wolf, but have none
    of the non-agressive instincts that this magnificent animal possesses. 
    
      TOTAL restraint is the only answer. In addition to the described
    kennel run, I'd insist that it have a covered top as well.  
    Having these animals in anything less than thses conditions is akin to
    having someone living next door to you who has a house full of
    dynamite.
    
    JM
     

    First, let me say I'm sorry about the basenoter's cat.  A terrible
    thing to happen.  :(
    
    
    As a differing opinion, I'd say don't judge the dogs, judge the owners.
    
    As cats chase and catch and often kill small animals, dogs tend to
    chase things that will run away from them.  Sometimes, they will kill
    them.  It's sad and won't make anyone feel better that it's a 'natural'
    thing to do, but I certainly wouldn't pursue having the dogs put down
    for it.  I think that's an extreme measure.
    
    If the dogs jumped the fence, I'd certainly pursue (in all vigor!)
    getting the neighbors either to contain their pets, or to place them
    with someone who can.  A six foot high fence is *not* too big for even
    a medium sized dog to jump--I've had a dog who could do just that and
    he was not a large dog.  So I'd vouch for the kennel run, enclosed,
    etc.  You run the risk of having barking become a nuisance, but the
    dogs will be contained. 
    
    I'm pretty surprised that the neighbors didn't contain their dogs
    beforehand, especially if your neighborhood has gone so far as to have
    no free roaming cats.  If people are to keep cats indoors, then I'd
    think they'd be extra certain to have to keep their dogs contained!
    Also, I'd ask if your neighbors knew of their dogs's habits concerning
    smaller animals.  If they knew their dogs chased cats, and if they knew
    their fence was too small to contain them, this makes the whole
    incident even more preventable and serious.
    
    Good luck in your efforts, and again, condolances for your cat.
    
    
    

    I also want to express my sincerest sympathies over the loss of
    CB.  I have sent some mail off-line but wanted to post it publically
    also.
    
    For those of you who are defending these dogs I want to re-iterate
    one fact - THESE ARE NOT DOGS!  They are WOLF-DOG crosses and we're
    dealing with a totally different animal.  I have a close close friend
    who had a wolf/dog cross and has told me numerous stories about the
    measures they went to control that animal!  She is a very responsible
    pet owner and says she would never have another wolf/dog mix.
    
    I also agree about blaming the humans.  It is clearly their fault.
    Having said that I would also like to point out that regardless of
    who is to blame you have a situation that MUST be controlled.  The
    wolf/dogs are the ones who are posing the damage and they must be
    controlled.  It is ineffective to direct all your energies at the
    humans.
    
    I believe that if you are going to have a pet, especially a somewhat
    exotic one like a wolf/dog, then it is your responsiblity to be
    informed about your pet and to take the appropriate actions.  I don't
    accept the "excuse" that it is instinctive for some dogs to kill
    cats regardless of the truth of that statement.  It doesn't make the
    owners any less responsible.
    
    
    
    CRY BABY has been added to the Silver Lining Memorial list.
    
    Nancy DC