Conference misery::feline_v1

    Our fleas are back as well, though not as many.  My experience with 
    the baths/dips/sprays is that they last only a few days.  Spraying
    should be done twice a week.  Also, the spraying does not get all the 
    fleas...
    
    What did you spray the house with?  This is important!  It must be
    residual.  Otherwise you are getting only the fleas, and not the eggs.
    
    Good luck!  There are MANY notes in here which may help you out
    further...
    
    Paula

    Even more important:  Vacuum the whole house and furniture every day
                          and comb the cat every day.
    
                          Spray, vacuum, comb.
                          

    I've bombed, vacuumed, sprayed, AND had the cats
    dipped, and they started scratching 1 HOUR after
    returning to the house.  It only takes 1 missed
    flea to start the whole thing over again.....
    
    L-

    and when you vacuum, either throw out the bag or
    keep flea powder in it, so the eggs that are vacuumed up
    don't just hatch in it.
    

    Though I havn't had problems, my vet advised using powder on the rugs,
    letting it sit for about 15 minutes then vaccuming. He said that the
    powder was more effeective than the spray (unless of course you bombed
    the house).
    
    Deb

    Does your kitty go outdoors.  My Charlie had an awful flea problem
    until we worked out that while we were sraying him in accordance with
    the spray instructions, he was going out and rolling in sand that was,
    it turned out, an ideal breeding ground for fleas.  He was covered.
    I bought a new steel flea comb and combed him for as long as he would
    stand still.  He's almost free now.   I'm sratched and scared, of
    course.  I found the 3M spray Spectrol very good, but didn't seem
    to kill these fleas, but maybe we wern't seeing the same fleas that we
    were spraying for but a new batch.
    
    Roll on winter.
    
    Me and three
    

    About 3-4 years ago we had fleas.  We tried bombing the house ourselves
    (at least twice), the cat was dipped, dusted, you name it.  Finally, I
    called around for an exterminator.  I found one that was just under
    $100 and guaranteed for 3 months.  I had him come over, and had Dusty
    dipped at the vet's the same day.  Within the 3 month timeframe, the
    fleas came back, and I called the exterminator back - he came out free
    of charge, I had Dusty dipped again.  That finally got rid of them. 
    When my grandfather's dog came back again the following year, we had
    fleas again, but I called the exterminator right away and they were
    gone with 1 application.  I figured that I spent a lot of money trying
    to get rid of them myself & it was worth calling him first instead of
    going through it again.
    
    Good luck.  Fleas are so disgusting.  By the way, you may want to have
    the vet check for worms, since the fleas are carriers.  I was so upset
    I just couldn't believe that God could create such horrible things that
    tortured my little baby!  
    
    Thrilled_if_I_NEVER_see_another_*&^%$#@_Flea

    Re: #7
    Did you ever stop to think that what ever was originally created
    to eat the fleas as food, man has, in his haste to ruin the
    earth and everything in it or on it destroyed that natural
    ememy?
    
    I wouldn't be in haste to put the blame where it doesn't belong
    since God is perfect in all his activities.
    
    Barbara  (owner of **3** long haired cats)
    
    ps/I agree they are disgusting

      You have to understand the whole life-cycle of the flea to get rid of
    it. Usually when you spray/dip/powder, the only thing you kill is the
    ADULT fleas. The EGGS are still there, and within a few days they
    hatch, and the whole thing starts again. What you have to do is revisit
    the spray/dip/powder in about a week after the first application, and
    maybe even the third and fourth week. ALso, the house/rugs have to be
    treated the same way.
    
      There ARE some newer flea control products on the market that will
    prevent the flea eggs from maturing and hatching. From what I've read
    on these, they are supposed to be very good and effective. Maybe your
    Vet could tell you more about them and even recommend some brands. I
    haven't had any experience with them.
    
      I use "Zodiac" powder on my crew. There is a "Zodiac 21-day" powder
    that seems to work very well, because the effect lasts long enough to
    kill emerging baby fleas, but even then the environment has to be
    dusted as well as the animal to be effective.
    
    JM

      Re .9
      I use "brewer's yeast" and although you will find most professionals
    'pooh-pooh' the effectiveness of it, I have been able to get away with
    one or two dustings of my 15 animals now for the past 6 years--when I
    began to use it. The theory of it's effectiveness is that the Vitamin
    B-6 which is a major component of Brewer's yeast builds up a natural
    repellent in the animal. Before I began using it we would be
    dusting/spraying weekly all summer.
    
      I will say that it MUST be done very concientiously and regularly.
    However, we apply it daily in their food, and it also helps to make
    their coats nice and shiny and healthy. It's a great food supplement
    even if the pros don't agree on it's flea-repelling aspects.
    
      (B.T.W....I am NOT interested in a "debate" on this issue. It WORKS
    for us. If it doesn't for others, then so be it. No
    lectures/disclaimers needed nor wanted!!)
    
    JM

If you have cats that go outside, or a dog that goes outside (of course, they
all do go outside don't they)....you will have a continuing problem to deal
with...and it can be done.  An overview of what worked for me when I had
three dogs and 4 indoor-only cats:

	1)  have the yard sprayed for fleas on a regular schedule.
	    remember to spray starting at the house and working out
	    to the boundaries of the property.  If you have an apartment,
	    get permission to spray the areas in front of the door to
	    your unit.  I sprayed once a month during warm months, and
	    once every two months/three months the rest of the time.

	2)  if you are infested in your home, consider investing in a one
	    time professional treatment for house and yard.  The new
	    sprays kill eggs as well as adults and are guarenteed.  Have
	    your pets all dipped at the same time.  I found that a flea
	    shampoo didn't cut it as well as a shampoo and dip. 

	3)  Keep your home clear by remaining vigilent.  Don't wait until
	    you see a flea, treat the home regularly with either spray
	    or use the borax, BUT TREAT REGULARLY.  Treat your pets that
	    leave the environment of the house regularly as well.  If you
	    take your dog out for a run, then immediately treat for fleas
	    AND CHECK FOR TICKS when the dog comes home...BEFORE IT GETS
	    INTO THE YARD OR HOUSE.  If your cat goes outside, treat with a
	    vet-approved spray or powder weekly during the flea season.
	    If brewers yeast works for you, feed it to your animals, but 
	    don't expect it to completely take care of the problem....
	    In a heavily flea-infested area, chemicals are going to be
	    needed.

>    Did you ever stop to think that what ever was originally created
>    to eat the fleas as food, man has, in his haste to ruin the
>    earth and everything in it or on it destroyed that natural
>    ememy?
 
	The cold kills fleas.

	The invention of Central Heating means that many more fleas
	survive the winter than ever before, thus the breeding stock
	increases each year.

	Your choice - warmth and fleas, or cold and no fleas.

	Heather

>>>	The cold kills fleas.

quite right.  And, in the wild, the animal's normal nomadic lifestyle where
it seldom sleeps in the same place for very long, tends to create dens up
high off the ground, and moves it's young very soon after birth to an
entirely NEW nest - are all natural population "controls" in the war on fleas.
When we, the humans, intrude on this normal cycle, we get the IDEAL breeding 
situation for parasites:

	1) warm environment year-around
	2) adequate water
	3) adequate food supply - us and our pets - in one place all the time
	   especially nice since we tend to make/give our animals
	   beds in the same spot all the time...we don't move them and us
	   out of the home for weeks at a time in order to starve the fleas
	4) lots of chemicals which kill off any predators that prey on
	   fleas, leaving the fleas unopposed in their population explosion.

Because we are the prime problem in this "natural" equation, it isn't really
possible to control fleas with "natural" controls....unless you want to start
moving around the landscape with your tent, using no heating, and living with
lots of bugs.  8^}

>	4) lots of chemicals which kill off any predators that prey on
>	   fleas, leaving the fleas unopposed in their population explosion.

	What predators prey on fleas, and what are the chemicals that kill
	the predators, and not the fleas?


	Heather

>	What predators prey on fleas, and what are the chemicals that kill
>	the predators, and not the fleas?


parasitic insects that eat fleas do exist.  There are many insect predators
in the insect world.  In a wild environment, the predation from these 
insects COMBINED WITH the "nomadic" life patterns of the flea's hosts - 
animals on which the flea feeds, but then drops off of to reproduce - keep 
flea population in check, both by keeping the total number of fleas controlled
and by "spreading" that population over a larger area -- You have fewer fleas
in any one spot - you have fewer adults finding suitable breeding
partners and fewer flea eggs for the next generation.

The chemicals we use kill ALL insects in their path, including the fleas.
HOWEVER, the flea eggs hatch and they continue breeding while the predators 
that FEED on the fleas are not as sturdy, nor as quick to breed.  The end 
result is that we have intense infestations of fleas with no natural predation.

The solutions are to use as benign a chemical stew as we can or to take up
a true nomadic lifestyle for ourselves and our pets in which we rotate our
living quarters every few months -- and never return to the same spot more
than once a year or so.  It works to keep human parasites under control as
well, and for those who aren't into bathing and washing bedding and such
it is a lifestyle that keeps them healthy.

I'm not into packing my tent around, so....  

>parasitic insects that eat fleas do exist.  There are many insect predators
>in the insect world.  

 You keep saying this, but which ones?    (maybe I could breed the predators?)

>The chemicals we use kill ALL insects in their path, including the fleas.
>HOWEVER, the flea eggs hatch and they continue breeding while the predators 
>that FEED on the fleas are not as sturdy, nor as quick to breed.  
 
 I thought the chemicals kill the eggs too - I know they do with lice, as that's
 what my cat tends to pick-up.
 The reason they keep breeding is because you don't manage to reach all the
 fleas and eggs. 
 
  When I lived in Plymouth 10 years ago - a city that has been around since 
  1066 - the amount of fleas around were minimal - because very few people had 
  central heating. 
  The the area that I lived in had been built over a hundred years ago, and the 
  population was fairly settled, it did not see an increase in the numbers of 
  fleas.  We had two cats at the time, and they rarely picked up fleas.

  Fleas love the warmth, and die in thew cold.

  Heather  

    >I thought the chemicals kill the eggs too - I know they do 
    >with lice, as that's what my cat tends to pick-up.
    
    No, many flea treatments only effect the live fleas.  That's why you
    have to keep treating the cat twice a week for a few months to be sure
    you've gotten everything.
    
    The new flea sprays are "growth inhibitors" that work by interfearing
    with the flea's life cycle.  These types of chemicals will prevent 
    the eggs from hatching and the larva from maturing into adults. 
    However, these are fairly new to the market.
      Nancy
    

the primary parasites for fleas fall into the mite family....I don't know the
official names for them, but they exist.  Unfortunately, they don't do us
much good in an urban environment.

re:  fleas and cold.  Yes, the fleas die in the cold...however, the eggs simply
go into winter hibernation until temperatures become more appealing.  Don't
depend on the weather to do more for you than simply DELAY the next infestation.
And those of us from warm climates like California know that fleas are a
year-around problem...

The newer chemicals that prevent the completion of the life-cycle and/or that
destroy the flea eggs are potent, potentially expensive, and not always easy
to get.  They are pretty successful when used correctly, however, and do offer
the best option I've found so far -- along with controlling the access of
"flea carriers" to the greater outdoors beyond my "flea-free zone".

    I want to thank everyone for all the notes concerning fleas.  The
    information has been invaluable to me.  What I'm looking for is
    comments/advice as to what I'm doing now to take care of the problem.
    
    One week ago today I found tapeworms in my kitten's stool which is what
    clued me in to the fact that we had fleas in the house.  I got
    medication from the vet for the worms and some Durakyl (sp?) for the
    cats and some Spectrol (I think - a 3M product) to spray the house. 
    The spray for the house is time released, supposed to kill hatching
    larvae - you know the story.  I vacuumed the house, furniture before
    spraying the house as directed and sprayed the cats.  I washed bedding,
    blankets and pillows.  Nymets had a
    reaction to the Durakyl - congestion, watery eyes, lethargy.  Called
    the vet - he said to wash the stuff off him and if he wasn't better in
    the morning to call him back.  He said not to spray Nym again as he
    would only get sick, to get a good flea comb and comb him out 2x a day,
    but to go ahead and spray the other two since they were okay.
    
    The first time I combed the cats (figured it was good for all of them),
    I got about 7 fleas off each one.  I have continued to comb all three
    over the past week and now we're down to 1-3 fleas apiece, sometimes
    none.  Sid and
    Hoover were sprayed again this past Monday and I'm going to spray them
    again tonight.  I have vacuumed the house and furniture every other
    day.  I am going to get 2 bottles of Spectrol tonight and spray
    everything again this Saturday.  The condo is 880 square feet.  The
    directions say one bottle for 800 square feet for a mild to moderate
    problem - one bottle for 400 square feet for a severe infestation.
    
    Questions:
    
    1.  Since I've never had a flea problem before I don't know if I have a
    mild or moderate problem.  Tapeworms tipped me off that there was a
    problem.  When I first checked the cats for fleas, I could only find a
    couple on each - had never seen any in the house.  Do I have a major or
    minor problem?  Since the number of fleas found on them is diminishing
    does that mean the chemical is killing them off as it's touted to do?
    
    2.  Since Sid and Hoover have been sprayed but I still find a flea or
    two on them is it because I'm not putting enough on them or not often
    enough.  I really don't like putting inseciticide on them but what
    choice do I have.
    
    3.  Would a flea powder be safe to put on Nymets if it doesn't contain
    what the Durakyl contains?
    
    4.  Should I put Borax down on the carpets next week to reinforce the
    spray from Saturday?
    
    5.  The vet said I would know when the fleas were gone because there'd
    be no more flea dirt on the cats when I comb them, but how can you
    really be sure?  How long will I have to continue spraying the cats - 
    weeks, months, forever?  They're all indoor cats.
    
    6.  This is getting expensive - should I quit while I'm ahead and call
    an exterminator?  I live in New England and have never had this
    problem.
    
    7.  Is flea dipping better than powders, sprays?
    
    8.  Help!  I'm loosing my sanity!  It's hard to fight something that
    you have a hard time seeing and it breaks my heart to comb my babies
    and finding these disgusting things crawling on them, not to mention
    watching Nymets have to breath through his mouth 'cause he was so
    stuffed up.  He didn't even want a Bonkers - I knew he felt like
    doodoo.
    
    Thanks for listening,
    
    Terry
    
    

re: .20

If you have a cat with allergies, take him to the vet when spraying the house
and/or spraying your other cats.  Have the vet dip him while he is there with
some other flea treatment.

you are doing all the right things.  Some notes on the process:

	unless your vet advises otherwise, do not spray your cats more than
	once every seven days.

	if you let your cats outside, you will continue to bring in fleas.
	if this is the case, then you must plan on a long-term maintenance
	of the problem, rather than attempt eradication.  Long-term mangement
	means frequent treatment for tapeworm, keeping borax down on the
	floors at all times, vacuuming twice or more a week, and spreading
	more borax.  This will not elimiate the fleas, but will probably
	allow you to keep their number under some level of control.  If you
	have the energy and time, daily vacuuming is recommended...treat
	the vacuum bag by spraying it with flea spray after vacuuming...
	this will allow you to keep the bag in the machine for a week at
	a time.  Treat your patio and yard with a recommended kennel spray
	on a regular basis.  Treat any commonly used hallways with flea
	treatment.

	If your cats are indoor-only, you can attempt eradication.  If this
	is the case, then:

	Liberally spray the vacuum cleaner bag before and after vacuuming or
	dispose of the vacuum cleaner bag immediately after vacuuming.
	Do spread the borax on the floors.  Vacuum frequently.  I would
	recommend you have the cats removed from the house to the vets,
	ALL dipped at the same time, and have the exterminator in to really
	spray the house ONCE....after they have treated the house...AND
	any patio area, common hallway and/or yard immediately adjacent 
	to the condo, you can maintain a flea-free zone.  However, in 
	my experience, it IS CHEAPER to get the pros to do the job once,
	and then plan on a REGULAR maintenance program.  My program is:

	Spray the yard around the house once a month during warm months,
	   working from the house OUT to the rest of the yard.  During the
	   worst of the flea season, I spray once every two weeks.
	Spray the house AND stuffed furniture once in the spring and
	once in the fall.
	Flea comb all cats once a week, examining for fleas.  If one is found,
	dip cats, spray house and yard.
	Vacuum at least twice a week.

This works for me.  However, my cats do not leave the flea-free zone, and I
no longer have a dog to bring in fleas.  With a dog, I found that I really
needed to keep on top of the yard spraying or all pets got fleas immediately.
I also didn't take my dog to the woods or stuff -- a doberman is simply not
a "rough it" animal....a villa by the sea, perhaps, but certainly no woods,
thank you.

As you noted the process is expensive.  Call the pros and you will find that
a competent pro with a guarentee is probably cheaper in the long run.

    re .20
    
    I think that you have a mild infestation.  Sounds like you are doing
    things right.  Just keep it up.  I second Dian's suggestion of treating
    the yard.  You can bring fleas in on your clothing.  Also, being
    in New England, you should see a slow down on the fleas when the
    cold weather hits.  Out here in California, flea control is a year
    around project.
    
    I choose to treat my house with Borax rather than insecticide, and
    the cats get treated with a shampoo in DeFlea instead of other types
    of flea killer.  It works for me.  The only real pesticides that
    we use are liquid Sevin in the yard.  I have a dog so I have to
    be really good about spraying the yard every couple of weeks.
    
    Jo

    
    Several years ago I came to the conclusion that fleas could live
    through a nuclear holocost! Our cats, at the time, were indoor/outdoor
    and would pick fleas up from the surrounding area. They were infested,
    the house was infested, it was disgusting.
    
    We tried flea collars, baths, dips, sprays (house and cats) and all I
    think we accomplished was getting the cats extremely annoyed at us and
    a whole new batch of scratches/scars on us, from wet cats. And, we
    would still find as many fleas on the cats as before! AHHHHHHHH!
    
    Finally, a note in this conference suggested a product, (around here in
    Maryland it is called Flea Stop) that contains di-Limonene (sp?) - it
    comes in spray, dip and powder. We had great luck with with product.
    Not only did it get rid of the fleas but it leaves a lemon scent, so
    your house doesn't smell like the inside of a can of RAID. 
    
    We still had fleas after that, but at a much reduced rate. Then, when
    we moved to our new house, I was not going to let fleas start up there.
    So, the cats were confined for a week at my Mom's house (while we were
    moving) where we bathed them with this stuff, and then sprayed the room
    severel times throughout the week. No fleas came into the house!  
    
    That was 2 years ago. Since then (cats no longer go outside though) the
    only time we had a problem was when we were cat-sitting a neighbor's
    cat and we (the humans) picked up fleas by being in their house and
    playing with their cat and brought the fleas back into our house. A
    week of spraying, vacuuming and a wet washcloth (with dip) rubdown of
    the cats took care of the problem.
    
    Good luck with this! You can eventually win! It just gets very
    frustrating when you go through all the mess and the next minute a flea
    jumps on you!
    
    janetb.
    rascal and merlin

    Funny you should mention Flea Stop.  I picked some up last week because
    I couldn't stand the smell of the Durakyl on the kitties.  It was
    awful.  I couldn't stand having them near me for the first couple of
    days after spraying them.
    
    I have continued with the Borax on the carpets, vacuuming every day and
    spraying the cats (except for Nymets who had a bad reaction to one
    product and I refuse to take a chance with anything else).  The problem
    is not as bad as it was but I still get a fea or two when I comb them. 
    If they're not gone by Christmas, I'm calling the professionals in. 
    I'm beginning to think that they're coming over from the condo next
    door.  The people moved out in September but they had this big
    humongous dog that they took out into the woods a few times a day and I
    think he brought the fleas into the building.  The fleas probably
    hopped over into my unit once their buffet left.
    
    Yes, it is frustrating but I have vowed to get rid of the little
    b**tards.  Having my little babies tormented by these creatures is not
    acceptable to me.
    
    T