Conference misery::feline_v1

	old wives tale				information
	--------------				-----------

cats HAVE to be outdoors to be		They adapt to indoor-only
healthy and happy.			living very well and live much
					longer, healthier lives as indoor-only
					pets.  The average life-span for an
					indoor/outdoor cat is 2 years in an
					urban environment.  The average
					life-span for an indoor-only cat is
					approx. 16 years.  Many live into
					their twenties.
  
					Two additional reasons to control 
					your cats:
					1) Cats are not native to most
					areas of the world in which we live
					and have a negative impact on local
					flora and fauna when allowed to roam
					uncontrolled.
					2) Even the nicest neighbor
					doesn't appreciate your cat messing
					up their garden and yard.


cats must be removed from the		Cats are no specific threat to either
home when babies are expected.		the pregnant mother nor the newborn
					infant.  Toxoplasmosis is much more
					likely to come from raw meat than
					from cat litter.  If the cat is
					an indoor-only pet, and checked out
					by the vet, there is virtually no 
					threat to the pregnant woman from
					the cat.  While every parent should
					be careful with newborns, the cat
					or kitten is no more threat to the
					infant than any human.  Cats do not
					"steal the breath" from infants.

kittens are "sturdy" and don't		a kitten is a baby, just like a human
require special care.			infant.  It can easily be hurt by
					the handling it gets.  Small children
					do not have the motor control to be
					consistently gentle around kittens
					and it isn't wise to allow the small
					child to hold/squeeze a kitten.
					Life-threatening damage is possible.
					The same is true for puppies.

    addendum to .0 concerning male neutering:
    
    While its true that neutering alters a male's behavior the
    sorts of things it effects are fighting and spraying (not to
    mention the smell of the urine) in highly positive ways.
    Neutered males roam less, fight less and smell a whole lot
    better!

    			"Curiosity killed the cat"      
                        
    Cats & kittens are VERY curious.  They need to be treated
    just like a new baby coming into the house.  All dangerous
    objects need to be removed or locked up. i.e. sewing needles 
    with thread attached, plastic bags, cabinets with poisonous 
    chemicals.
    Kitties love to climb into dark hidey holes, so look out
    when doing laundry, as they may climb into the washer or
    dryer, or get shut into an attic, or closet, or trunk.
    They will climb into the engine compartment of your car,
    because its warm, or lie under the car in the shade to get
    out of the sun.   They love to explore, and will play with
    anything...including scissors, fans, or dangling belts in
    the closet.  Keep closet doors closed, as they may get tangled
    in a belt or coathanger.
    
    L-
    

    I've heard that "big ears means a good mouser".  Certainly King Kong
    and The [late and lamented] Mighty Thor were both the biggest eared and
    greatest hunters of our cat associates.  That is, King Kong still is.
    a
    q
    

>				  	The average life-span for an
>					indoor/outdoor cat is 2 years in an
>					urban environment.  The average
>					life-span for an indoor-only cat is
>					approx. 16 years.  Many live into
					their twenties.



	This is an old wives tale - I have always lived in an urban environment,
	and I reckon the average age is the same for an indoor/outdoor, as an 
	indoor only.

	My cats are 4 and 1,(my previous cats have died at 6 weeks (an
	abandoned kitten I took in that that had cat flu), 18, 16, and 15). 
	My sister-in-law's 3 cats are 12-16, my brothers cat (outdoor only) is 
	11. My neighbours cat is 7.

	My friends 3 indoor-only cats all died at age 1-2 of feline aids. They
	were purebred persians.
	
	Cats that are indoor-outdoor, and are from indoor/outdoor parents, have
	many more inherent immunities.

	However, if you're going to let a cat go outdoors, when it's 
	parents/grandparents........ have never been outdoors, then you may get
	problems.
	Thankfully, the only cats that tend to be indoor-only in the UK are
	purebreds, and they're not very popular.

	Heather	

>>>           <<< Note 3965.5 by BIGHUN::THOMAS "The Devon Dumpling" >>>
                   -< When is a wives tale not a wives tale >-


>				  	The average life-span for an
>					indoor/outdoor cat is 2 years in an
>					urban environment.  The average
>					life-span for an indoor-only cat is
>					approx. 16 years.  Many live into
					their twenties.


These stats are from the USA - they are the numbers from the SPCA, humane 
society, and are the compilation of their data from shelters and from vets
all over the country.  In my community, San Jose, the AVERAGE age for a cat 
that is allowed to roam is now LESS THAN 2 YEARS.  These are, again, figures 
from the local SPCA, Humane Society, and the vets in the immediate area.
The natiional figures are printed in the popular cat fancier's magazines
and are available, upon request, from local humane society or SPCA offices.

Average means that some live longer, some don't even live that long.  In
the USA, the AVERAGE age of an indoor-outdoor cat is not to the advantage
of cat or cat-owner if they live anywhere around an urban center, whether
village, town, or city.  If you have an environment where there is little
traffic, your odds may be better.

    Anyone have any data for the UK?

	Do you honestly think that many people would have indoor/outdoor
	cats if their average life expectancy was only 2 years?

	I have lived in my current urban area for 6 years, many of the cats
	that were around when I first moved in are still around. 
	I am less than half a mile from the main M4 motorway, this strech of
	motorway has more traffic than any other in the UK(even the notorious
	M25)and I'm also less than 400 yards from the main A4.
	
	There has been 1 cat run-over in our road in the last 6 years.

	The average age of the cats in my area is about 8, there are older 
	ones, and younger ones. I would guess at the average life expectancy to
	be about 16-18.

	If the average life expectancy was 2, then I would expect to see many 
	young cats, and not many older cats - this is not the case.

	I don't know if any group actually collects statistics about this in 
	the UK.

	Also, your statement says "roam free", not indoor/outdoor.
	Does this include cats that are strays and ferrals, as opposed to cats 
	that actually have owners, and are looked after?

	Those of you in the US who have indoor/outdoor cats, whats your
	experience of your cats life expectancy?


	Heather

>	Those of you in the US who have indoor/outdoor cats, whats your
>	experience of your cats life expectancy?

	Our outdoor cat didn't make it to her third birthday.  She was
	killed in a car accident.  I will never have an indoor/outdoor cat
	again because its not worth the grief.

    FWIW - there are already three indoor versus outdoor basenotes, numbers
    8, 1114, and 3529. If you want to debate indoor versus outdoor, let's
    keep it neat and do that there, and discuss old wives tales here.
    
    jack
    sparing yet another two cents.

>    FWIW - there are already three indoor versus outdoor basenotes, numbers
>    8, 1114, and 3529. If you want to debate indoor versus outdoor, let's
>    keep it neat and do that there, and discuss old wives tales here.
 
	But it was entered as corroboration of an old wives tale, and we were 
	discussing that.

	Heather

    Heather - I've seen the same statistics.  If you can find some
    from another source that disagrees with that, or if you can find
    them for the UK I'd be very interested in seeing them.  I have to
    agree with my husband that I'd rather not see this note become another
    indoor/outdoor note.
    
    FWIW my first cat died 1 week short of her 2nd birthday.  She was the
    first and last cat I will ever let out unsupervised.  That's a decision
    we all make for ourselves.
      Nancy DC
    

    How can this note NOT become another indoor/outdoor note when the
    indoor only proponents continue to publish these types of statistics,
    which mostly apply to the FERAL and STRAY cat population.  My mother
    had a 17 year old in/out cat who died of old age, a 14 year old in/out
    cat who in her elder years chose to stay inside of her own accord (they
    still have her), and presently have a 7 year old in/out cat, and an
    over 10 year old in/out cat.
    
    My Nikki is between 7 and 10, T.K. is 4, my neighbor's in/out cat is
    also almost 4.
    
    These are real statistics.  Now, back to old wives tails.
    

    My neighbors have had three out door cats.  One has been hit and
    terribly hurt once by a car, another was hit _twice_.
    

the subject was old wives tales.  The old wives tale addressed is the
assumption that cats MUST be allowed to roam outdoors to be healthy
and happy.  The information offered was:

	1)  Cats can and DO adjust to indoor-only (or limited, restrained
	    outdoor access on a leash or in an enclosed habitat) living.
	    They can live long healthy lives without being allowed to
	    roam outside.

	2)  Information necessary to DECIDE whether you wish to have an 
	    indoor/outdoor cat is available from many sources.  The 
	    statistics offered were from two NATIONALLY-RECOGNIZED sources
	    in the USA.  The statistics are compiled from multiple sources
	    and include the information gathered from vets, the SPCA, and
	    the humane societies in the USA.  Yes, they do cover feral
	    cat populations, and "strays" (which are simply cats that have
	    been killed while not "at home" and which could not get home).
	    The statistics indicate AVERAGE life spans for urban cats.
	    "Average" MEANS some live LONGER and some live SHORTER lives.
	    Obviously, the limited life span indicated means that MANY
	    MORE cats live short lives than long lives. 

	3)  When in doubt, ask your vet.

    Well, in my youth, and just before I started breeding I had
    indoor/outdoor cats.  During my life I had 5 cats that were in/out.  Of
    the 5, 1 lived to 12 years, 3 were killed by cars within the first 4
    months of their lives, and 1 was killed by a car at about a year.  I
    didn't bother to average that out, but, I think it comes pretty close
    to the 2 year average.  
    
    I lived in the country on a back road that was not heavily
    traveled....you could count the number of cars that went by in the
    course of a day on two hands.  
    
    I think what we all have to think about is that some cats will survive
    and live happy, healthy lives outdoors, but there are many that will
    never see their first birthday.  
    
    BTW, the 1 cat that lived to 12 was leash trained for the first two
    years before she was allowed to roam.  
    
    cin
    

	I have to agree that there is no way this note can't become 
	another indoor/outdoor issue when the staunch indoor only folks
	keep shoving the same stats down our throats.  

	Not all cats can adapt to the so called luxurious indoor only
	status.  Some can, and some can't....and it is WRONG to assume
	that all cats can.  Along that line of thinking, can I assume
	all cats should be bred?????  I don't think a healthy cat is one
	who sheds excessively (loses hair in clumps) due to nerves of 
	being confined, stops eating and using the box, and has a temperament
	change for the worse.  
    
	I have seen reports which state that neutered animals stand
	a better chance of survival that un neutered......but I haven't
	seen anything about the indoor outdoor stats which keep coming
	up in this conference.  Would someone be so kind as to send them
	to me.


	RE: .15

	I have talked to several vets about this and they think it is hogwash!
	some cats *belong* inside while others don't.

	RE: known elder outdoor cats

	Nippa is 4
	boyfriends cat Pepper lived to 23, and was put down
	my aunts cat is in her early teens
	my girlfriends parents have always had cats which lived into their teens
	Buster (the stray) has to be over 4
	I know of *many* barn cats which have been around for as long as anyone 
	  can remember

	I also know of many cats which have become causalities, but what about 
	survival of the fittest?

    I personally feel that everyone should do what they feel with regard to
    indoor/outdoor.  It's a very personal decision.  I have also read the
    stats provided, I think they're available from the Humane Society, or
    some such organization.  
    
    I don't think were trying to shove anything down anyone's throat, but
    it is a fact that ON AVERAGE indoor cats will live a longer life than
    outdoor cats.  Although that's not to say that there will not be indoor
    cats that die at a young age or outdoor cats that will live to 20
    years or more.
    
    

    I don't see why any cat would not be happy indoors if it was never let
    outdoors to begin with.  What they don't know, they don't miss!   I live
    in an area with lots of woods around.  My in/out cat made it safely for
    the first 3 years, and recently, she lost half her neck (Chewy is 
    recovering nicely by the way).  I'm just lucky that she wasn't killed.
    I learned my lesson before it was too late.  I have decided that my
    other 2 cats will always remain indoors.  They are perfectly happy
    inside.  The youngest is 6 months.  I can leave the door wide open and
    he just sits there and looks outside.  He has no desire to go out
    because he has never been out.   How can a indoor only cat hate living
    indoors if they have never been out?   It's a different story if you
    try to confine an in/out cat to just the inside.  Then you're likely to
    see behavior problems etc.    I don't think that anyone is trying to
    shove Stats down your throat.  They're just giving facts.  I hope your
    cats remain safe outside.   If one day they do get killed though,
    you're opinion may change like mine did.  Nothing anyone said in here
    changed my mind.  I learned the hard way and the one who suffered was
    my cat.   
    
    Pam, Chewy, Zula and Ziggy too
    
    
    Moderator - Maybe these notes should be moved to a Indoor/Outdoor 
    note where we can continue the discussion without taking away from this
    note.
         

>>    Moderator - Maybe these notes should be moved to a Indoor/Outdoor 
>>    note where we can continue the discussion without taking away from this
>>    note.

	I agree!

	I usually avoid reading the notes where people argue about this
	and that.  I saw this note on Old Wives Tales and got interested!
	But, what do I find but another note where everyone is arguing!
	I guess I'll just have to hit next unseen everytime I hit this
	note, as well as the other notes that do not interest me.

	Karen

	Well,  I asked my vet.


	About 90+% of the cats on his register are indoors/outdoors.

	Most of the problems with cats are from other cat-bites. These are not
	normally serious, and happen to indoor only cats too, if it's not
	an only cat.

	He has seen stress-type problems in the indoor only cats, which
	he hasn't seen in indoor/outdoor cats.

	The indoor/outdoor cats live longer than the indoor only cats.
	Average 16-20 for indoor/outdoor, and 12-16 for indoor only.

	The vet puts this down to:
 	The indoor/outdoor cats are normally moggies, and come from parents of 
	indoor/outdoor cats, and have therefore built up many immunities.

	The indoor only cats are normally purebreeds, if they do happen to pick 
	up an infection, they don't have the immune system built up enough to
	protect them(as the parents....were probably indoor only too), and also
	purebreads tend to have more inherent problems.

	I have written to the RSPCA to see if they have any statistics, though
	I would be surprised if they do, as cats do not have to be registered, 
	and noone needs to be informed when you get a kitty, when or how they 
	die, or whether you've kept them indoors or not.

	I shall let you know how the RCPSA reply.


	Heather

    You know, Heather, I wish you wouldn't continue to proclaim that
    purebred cats have more inherent problems than moggies.  This simply
    isn't true.  
    
    cin
    

Well, what a perfect opportunity to dispell another old wives tale...that 
purebred cats are less robust than moggies.  Well, guess what moggy in my
house has outnumbered trips to the vets 2 to 1 over both purebreds??  Julie!!
She had the best of kittenhoods and the best vet care money could buy (and
do we mean lots of money!!), but for some reason, if someone in the house
is sick or out of sorts or 'tossing cookies', it's Julie.  Maybe it's because
she's a redhead....

Here's another one...cats can see in the dark.  I love that one.  Nothing but
radar can see in the dark!  They see better than we do in the dark, but
in my house, if something goes bump in the night, it's a cat who can't see
where he or she is going!!

So, let's get back to old wives tales!

Mary (WITHOUT her moderators hat on for a few more minutes....)

    I heard one today.
    
    If you neuter a male cat before he is a year old, it will stunt
    his growth.
    
    Facts:  A male cat can  be neutered as early as 6 or 6.5 months,
    IF his genitalia are mature enough and functional.  The only 
    thing that won't happen is that he won't develop jowls or his
    face/head won't develop the large roundness that whole male
    cats have.  His face/head will pretty much remain as it is when
    he was neutered.
    
    What WILL happen is that he probably WON'T begin spraying, he WON'T
    become agressive, he probably WON'T try to mount the other cats in
    your house, he WILL become a very sweet, mushy, lap cat!!
    
    E.T.

    E.T.
    
    Maybe you should tell that to Flame and Bailey....both of those cats
    continued to develop in the head area long past neutering.  True, they
    may not get as jowly, but their heads do still develop.
    
    cin
    

    Little Bit is developing a nice "applehead" as my neighbor calls
    it, and he was altered months ago.
    

    Ah, well that's even better - guess it's just the jowls that may
    be affected!  anyway, it seems that neutering early is A-OK !!

    Yup, and E.T. even if you wait and they develop jowls, they will often
    lose them after neutering.  But the heads still get big!
    
    

     
    re: .28   ...and we're still waiting for both!
    
    

>    You know, Heather, I wish you wouldn't continue to proclaim that
>    purebred cats have more inherent problems than moggies.  This simply
>    isn't true.  
 

	The first information was from experience - friends that have both
	indoor/outdoor moggies, and indoor only purebreds.

	I was asked for more information.


	The last note I entered , as I said, was information from my vet.


	I am still waiting for information from the RSPCA.


	If you like, I'll tell my vet that you say he's not telling the truth.
	

	Heather	

    That is enough. If you want to belabor the point, take it OFF LINE!
    
    Deb
    FELINE co-moderator

    Back to the original subject....maybe someone can clear up these
    old tales.  (no pun intended)
    
      o Can cats see in the dark?  I had heard that if it is pitch dark
        cats cannot see, but if there is a stream of light they can.
    
      o Are cats colored blind?  I heard that they do see some color
        but not as bright as we see.
    
      o Do cats have good hearing?  Can they also hear dog whistles?
    
    
    Can anyone provide information....
    
    Sandy (Tamba, Poco, and Barkley) 
    

According to several excellent TV programs I've seen over the last two years
on PBS or the DISCOVERY channel:

      o Can cats see in the dark?  I had heard that if it is pitch dark
        cats cannot see, but if there is a stream of light they can.

	NO....the basic science of vision is the processing of light.
	If there is no light, then there is no vision...that's why
	fish born in dark caves evolve without eyes.  Cats do have
	efficient vision, and can see very well in limited light, but
	they aren't magic....at least in the "seeing in the dark" sense.

      o Are cats colored blind?  I heard that they do see some color
        but not as bright as we see.
    
	Fascinating subject.  Some scientists have been investigating this
	question for many years.  So far, we know that cats do recognize
	some colors...we don't have a complete handle on how many different
	colors they can distinguish, or how subtle their tonal recognition
	is.  We do know that they have better, more complex vision processing
	capability than dogs.  The colors we are sure they can see are in
	the primary color spectrum, yellows, reds, blues, greens.  
	The assumption is that color recognition gives the cat protection 
	as a predator, offering the ability to recognize brightly colored, 
	often deadly prey (a common defense of small creatures in the food 
	chain is to develop deadly skin secretions and bright colors 
	to warn off predators).

	Meanwhile, Hannah the cat knows her blue eyes match a certain towel
	absolutely perfectly and she has purloined it so she has a regal
	place to lay around looking beautiful.  I know she knows which towel,
	because no other blue towel will do.  

      o Do cats have good hearing?  Can they also hear dog whistles?

	Cat have excellent hearing and this is why the old wives tale about
	them being able to see in the dark got started.  They seem to be
	able to gather more information from what they hear than we do....
	information about distance from that which makes noise, for instance.
	In the natural order of things, cats are night predators and the
	ability to process sound so efficiently makes them excellent at
	their jobs....just ask any field mouse in their territory.

	They have a wide spectrum of sound recognition, much wider than the
	HUMAN spectrum and roughly equivalent to the canine hearing spectrum.
	They seem to hear dog whistles (sometimes -- depending on the quality
	of the whistle), but, being cats, generally choose to ignore the
	sound...after all, it has nothing to do with sex or food, so why
	bother?  

Here is some information I remember reading in Desmond Morris's books (I beleive
the titles are "Catlore" and "Cat Watching", though I'm doing this from memory).

1.  Can cats see in the dark?  Well, in ABSOLUTE darkness, the answer is no.
It's simple physics; if there are no photons striking the retina, there is no
image.  However, it is difficult in a house setting to obtain absolute darkness.
There is almost always some stray light coming through windows, for example,
even in the dead of night.

However, the cat's eye does make more efficient use of light than does the human
eye.  Behind the retina of the feline eye is a reflective surface (I believe it
is named the "tapis lucidum", which if I remember my high-school Latin correctly
means roughly "curtain of light").  This surface will reflect light photons
which initially pass the retina back, thus allowing the cat to "see in the
dark."  I believe the tapis lucidum is what produces the color you see if you
look into a cat's eyes at the right angle.

Also, I believe the cat's whiskers help with maneuvering in the dark.  The
whiskers are very sensitive and can help prevent the cat from bumping into
objects.

2.  Are cats color blind?  Until recently, the accepted answer was "yes."
However, there now appears to be evidence that cats can discern colors, but
perhaps not as humans do.  It appears that color is not a critical portion of
the cat's "information processing."

DISCLAIMER:  This is from memory from the books I mentioned above (at least I
am certain of the author's name! :-)  I hope I haven't made a total "dweeb" of
myself :-) :-)

					- Ken

Drat, I forgot something else I wanted to write in the last reply :-)

Good hearing?  ARE YOU KIDDING? :-) :-)  Do you have any idea of what the
record distance is from which a cat can hear a can opener? :-) :-)

(Seriously, yes, they do have good hearing.  In one of Mr. Morris's books, I
believe he gives the cat's hearing range.  I don't remember it exactly [yes, I
know, when did that ever stop me? :-], but the high end was certainly above the
human scale [which is 20 - 20,000 Hz, though 18,000 Hz is a more typical
cutoff]).

					- Ken

    You are right about the can-openers....they come running from
    everywhere.   Also they must have a great sense of smell because
    if I am cooking Chicken Soup....my kitty Tamba shows up no matter
    how far away he was.  He loves my chicken soup...veggies in all.
    
    Sandy

    vision:
    
    My guys seem to have trouble seeing a few pieces of dry food in
    their plates.  I am certain that they detect it's there by smell,
    so I assume either their near vision is not so good (I think I
    read that somewhere) or the color discrimination (brown vs.
    plate-color) is not so good.
    
    noise:
    
    The cats know before I do when someone is coming up the
    walkway to the house.
    

    re: hearing - never mind the can opener, if I just open the cabinet
    that contains the cat food they come running!  Only happens when I
    open that particular cabinet!