Conference misery::feline_v1

    I have a feeling that we've said enough on the subject already.
    
    read 2261, 3875, and some of the following: (from DIR/TITLE=BREED)
    
   352  USHS01::MCALLISTER   13-OCT-1986    71  Ask the breeders...
  1147   ATEAM::DOIRON       29-FEB-1988    16  ??BREEDING??
  1173   AIMHI::TOMOLONIS    11-MAR-1988     4  BREEDING
  1655   TWEED::R_SICILIANO  12-AUG-1988     7  Question on "Breeding"
  3184  ARCHER::HAYES        29-DEC-1989     1  I need some advice on Breeding!

    I, for one, don't want to go down that rathole again right now.
    
    jack

I will ask one question of the base noter.  With all the cats and kittens
killed each year because there are no homes for them, why would you encourage
ANYONE to breed cats for ANY PURPOSE other than to improve the 
physical and mental strength of the breed as a whole?  If people want family
pets, they can get them from the paper, from the shelter, from the neighbors...
anywhere.   Assuming that you care about cats, how can you encourage any
breeding that is not well planned to be to the advantage of the kittens to
be born?  "Backyard" breeders aren't performing a service to the breed,
they aren't even performing a service to the prospective owners who get
these kittens....as several noters of this conference cat attest after losing
pets they dearly loved due to genetic defects in the kittens.  I suspect any
one of these people would have been willing to pay a great deal more money
to have a healthy long-lived pet.

Your justification of the amateur breeder is extremely short-sighted.  If
a breeding cannot benefit the breed as a whole, and lead toward healthier
kittens, there is no justification for it.  Period.  There is virtually
no breed of cat that does not harbor the potential for genetic defect...
it is the nature of the limited gene pool required to get a specific
"type" to breed true.  Knowing that, noone should attempt to breed without
carefully planning each litter.  To do less is to betray the animals
themselves.  Amateurs who spend the time and money to get to know their
breed, the available bloodlines, the defects/shortcomings of each, and
to pay for the breeder cats, and the continuing veternarian care required to
keep the cats and kittens in optimum health will not be able to offer
any kitten at a "bargain" price.  The reason these backyard breeders offer
bargain prices is because they don't spend the money to take care of their
cats properly or breed their cats carefully - if they did, they wouldn't 
be able to offer bargain prices. 

I don't know any reputable breeder who breaks even with his/her cattery.
They all have vet bills approaching $1000.00 hanging over their heads.
They all work at jobs to support themselves, their families, and their
cattery.  If you purchase a kitten from a reputable breeder, you aren't
defraying the cost of getting that kitten into the world...the mom cat
has undergone months of preparatory vet care before being bred, her
food has been carefully supplemented to increase her chances of a healthy
pregnancy.  She has undergone continued vet care during the pregnancy
and the kittens have been thoroughly examined by the vet.  Shots have
been administered, ear mites and worms have been avoided.  The cat and
kittens are healthy.  The daddy has been carefully selected to have
a good genetic mix with the female - yes, to delivery beautiful kittens,
but equally important, to delivery healthy babies.  No cat is beautiful
if it isn't healthy.  This all costs money that the backyard breeder isn't
willing to pay.  If the kitten purchased from a backyard breeder is
healthy, you are lucky.  It wasn't planned to be.  It just happened.

    Well said .3! 
    Martha
    

    Well, I have to disagree...about the "rathole" part, that is.
    This is an important issue to us animal lovers, and getting 
    many differing opinions is a valuable learning tool, at the
    very least.  I read most of the notes pertaining to breeding,
    and there really is not much clarification of the subject(s)
    being discussed, just a lot of "flaming".  What's wrong with
    this being a note that explains the pros & cons without the
    flaming, name calling, finger pointing, etc.?  Some plain
    facts & details would help, not hinder at this point.
    
    For instance:
    
    Fact:  There is a serious overpopulation problem here in the
           U.S. of kittens/cats/puppies/dogs.  1989 Nationwide
           statistics are that 13 million had to be destroyed.
           (Info from MSPCA 1989 pamphlet on animals turned into
           (all) shelters across the U.S.)
    
    Myth:  Having a litter of kittens/puppies before you spay your
           female cat or dog is better for them.
    
    Sometimes this way gets the point across easier.
    
    L-

A "good" example of amateur breeding can be found in note 415.790.

                     <<< Note 3893.5 by BOOVX1::MANDILE >>>
                             -< I disagree....... >-

    Well, I have to disagree...about the "rathole" part, that is.
    This is an important issue to us animal lovers, and getting 
    many differing opinions is a valuable learning tool, at the
    very least.  I read most of the notes pertaining to breeding,
    and there really is not much clarification of the subject(s)
    being discussed, just a lot of "flaming".  What's wrong with
    this being a note that explains the pros & cons without the
    flaming, name calling, finger pointing, etc.?  Some plain
    facts & details would help, not hinder at this point.
    
    For instance:
    
    Fact:  There is a serious overpopulation problem here in the
           U.S. of kittens/cats/puppies/dogs.  1989 Nationwide
           statistics are that 13 million had to be destroyed.
           (Info from MSPCA 1989 pamphlet on animals turned into
           (all) shelters across the U.S.)
    
    Myth:  Having a litter of kittens/puppies before you spay your
           female cat or dog is better for them.
    
    Sometimes this way gets the point across easier.
    
    L-

re: .6

>>> A "good" example of amateur breeding can be found in note 415.790.

	Was that really necessary?  This note was set up to avoid the
	finger pointing, etc.  Why do you feel it necessary to point
	fingers at that noter??  

	Karen

    I strongly agree with .5   There is alot of information that
    could be shared with a person who is thinking of becomming a
    breeder.  the more info shared would.. help them make a good decision.
    
    There are alot of pros and cons to just about everything...and I 
    would think we could spell them out without going after someones 
    juggler vein.  To date...I have yet to see the PROS to this topic.
    
    I am not a breeder...because I have weighed the pros and cons and
    made my decision.
    
    Sandy (Tamba, Poco, and Barkley)
                     

Excuse me, Karen, did I say something wrong?  This note is supposed to 
be for information on amateur breeding and that recent note certainly is 
a good example of amateur breeding.

Pat

               <<< Note 3893.7 by ALLVAX::LUBY "DTN 287-3204" >>>
                     -< a good example of finger pointing >-


re: .6

>>> A "good" example of amateur breeding can be found in note 415.790.

	Was that really necessary?  This note was set up to avoid the
	finger pointing, etc.  Why do you feel it necessary to point
	fingers at that noter??  

	Karen

    I had to log off before I really had a chance to finish
    the last suggestion I wanted to make on .5.
    
    I wanted to suggest that examples/definitions of amateur breeding,
    breeding for profit, breeding to better the breed, 
    results of overpopulation, etc. be entered here so that an all
    around knowledge could be gotten on the pro's/con's of breeding,
    period.  
    
    However, I would rather that no references be made to any notes
    in the file, to avoid causing any hurt feelings.
            
    L-

>>>that recent note certainly is a good example of amateur breeding.

Well Pat, I guess it depends on your point of view.  In my view, it
wasn't a good example and thus I thought you were being sarcastic
when you said "good" example.  The quotes implied the sarcasm.  Sorry
for misinterpreting but I still feel that individual noters should
be left out of this discussion until they choose to involve themselves.

Karen

I realize I am taking a chance of being YELLED at by writing this note,
but here goes...

I agree with both points of view.

THERE ARE DEFINATELY TOO MANY DOGS AND CATS IN THE U.S.
And SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE.  We took on the responsibility for the
lives of these animals as soon as we domesticated them, but are we God?
Do we have the right to say what is better for the breed?
Our way of determining what is best is definatly not nature's way of
"the fittest survive".

I would not have been able to afford my  schnauser puppy from a "reputable
breeder".  I instead got her from a mom and pop breeder.(She is a great puppy,
by the way). 

RE: .3   The healthiest cat I've ever seen was an indoor moggie.

It's all very confusing to me.
We definately need to educate people about the situation, but who's to say
who's right about who to breed?  If the breeders are really worried about
over-population, why don't they quit breeding, leaving more strays with 
homes and letting nature take care of who survives?
(not my opinion, just a thought.  PLEASE don't flame me. I'm just
trying to show the breeders that there are other ways to look at this.) 

I think we all agree that there is a problem that needs to be solved.
I don't think the solution is in attacking people who do different, but
in educating them on the situation and then we all need to do our part.

Becky

P.S.  These are opinions only and are not meant to attack or offend
ANYONE!!!

re:  the all-too-frequent accusation of "attacking someone" because the
information offered is not what the requestor WANTS to hear...

In my opinion, it is much more important to list the real negatives associated
with breeding kittens or puppies rather than list the obvious benefits.  It is
easy to imagine a cute litter of kittens or puppies, all healthy, and the money
that people will pay to buy them.  It isn't always easy to understand that
there are problems to deal with when breeding:  

	1)  The prevailing attitude by many who want to start breeding
	    cats or dogs is that they will "make some money" at it.  This
	    isn't valid.  It means the individual is
	    generally unwilling to pay for vet visits, vaccinations, etc.
	    that are important.  Yes, often everything goes just
	    fine with the animal pregnancy and kittens/puppies are born with
	    no obvious problems in spite of limited or no vet care. 
	    However, they also can go terribly wrong; females attempting
	    to give birth can die, whole litters can die, kittens/puppies
	    can be born with defects like the condition in which a
	    kitten's/puppy's heart doesn't "grow-up" with the body of the
	    animal (sometimes seen in purebred cats and dogs, often Birmans
	    and Siamese - dobermans and labs), and kittens/puppies can die
	    from diseases they get from other animals in the environment.  

	2)  People think that the cute little kitten/puppy will still be a
	    cute bigger kitten/puppy when she/he matures sexually.  They 
	    are not prepared for the real transition the animal undergoes;
	    such as a "complete" change in personality, development of 
	    extremely "unattractive" behaviors which are normal sexual
	    behavior for the animal.  Males become aggressive and territorial,
	    females often become extremely and continually vocal.  Both
	    males and females "forget" housebreaking.  Both males and females
	    "spray" their territory.  The male will get into fights with
	    any other male in his territory, whole or not, whether they used to
	    be friends or not.  He must be isolated from other animals.
	    In some cases, the animals can be very "touchy" and should not
	    be around small children - they can bite and scratch when
	    annoyed.  If they aren't actively breeding they are generally
	    annoyed.

	3)  Although it is wisest to wait until the female is fully
	    mature physically before allowing breeding, the female becomes
	    sexually mature long before physical maturity occurs.
	    This means that the female will be in "season" repeatedly
	    before she can breed.  In some cases, a female will continually
	    cycle in heat with only a week or two between cycles - this
	    is particularly common in cats.  During this time, the female
	    must be isolated.  Whole males will hear her call and smell her
	    scent for miles around and they will come to the "call of the
	    wild" unless the area in which she is confined is kept closed
	    up..not necessarily a healthy or attractive option in the summer.  
	    There will be loud and continuous fights in the owner's yard 
	    while the males attempt to determine the "dominant" male.  
	    These animals don't watch a clock, even though we humans do.
	    These animals inflict real injury on one another, which means
	    other pets belonging to the owner are at risk from these
	    unwelcome males.  The female should not be bred for a period
	    of time after she has been pregnant.  She will cycle in heat
	    whether she should have kittens or not.

	4)  Once a litter is born, the mother must be watched carefully.
	    Some females are not good mothers and will not tend or nurse
	    their young.  Some have even killed their young (although more
	    common for dogs than cats, it happens in both species).  The
	    male may kill the young if allowed near them.  Other pets in
	    the home may kill the newborn young if allowed near them.  This
	    means the female must be protected, watched, isolated.  If
	    she begins delivery, she must not be left alone.

I'm sure breeders can offer even more bad news.  Before anyone begins breeding,
they need to understand these negatives - and be prepared.  In some cases,
once the cat/dog has reached sexual maturity and developed unattractive habits,
these habits aren't easily broken even if the animal proves to be unacceptable
as a breeder and are neutered/spayed.  That's why some purebreds end up at
animal shelters.

    re: .13 - very good points.  I'd like to also add that one must
    be prepared for the "thundering herd" stage.  This is when the kittens
    run around the house like little demons getting into absolutely
    everything!  This means needing a kitten room or cage for them.  Right
    now we let the kids run around the house when we're home and aside 
    from knocking things over and generally being underfoot, they're
    pretty good.  But young kittens can also be destructive.
    
    Also, depending upon what breed you chose you may have the issue
    of what to do with the less desireable kittens.  For example, when
    you breed scottish folds - not a recommended breed for the new
    breeder - only some of the kittens will have folded ears.  What do
    you do with the others that look very much like any kitten in any
    shelter when they're little?  
    
    So I'd say choice of breed deserves alot of thought also.
    
    Also note that the presence of intact males and/or females in your
    house may prompt your neutered cats to break litterbox training too.
      Nancy DC

    Before this forum, I thought pet store pets were cute, breeders.....
    whats the difference between backyard and the pro's?  A cat is a cat,
    right?    
    
    Wrong!  I have learned about the impact and difference of the above
    statements.  I agree, some noters were hard on the non-conformists, 
    but their points got across to me.  I think the facts have to be presented
    (the truth hurts) as is, not sugar coated, and toned down.
    
    I have been burned 'big time' by buying an animal without looking into
    the facts.  In fact, I am very gun shy about buying another.  However,
    if and when I do, I will make sure of the breeders reputation, I will
    look at offspring [ dispositions, health, conformation].  I do not want
    to get stuck again.
    
    I think `amature breeder' should be clearer defined.  Is it one who is
    starting to get into breeding, but has an experienced, professional
    breeder to guide them, or is the the person who decides to breed to
    make a few bucks?
    
    Sure, backyard breeders are doing a *great* service by providing the general
    public with apparant purebreds.....but if they don't care about
    breeding the best, I certainly would not want one of those animals, who
    know what problems will arise later on.......it just is too big a risk.
    
    Michele & Nippa
                                                   

    p.s
    
    When buying an animal/purebred animal, the actual cost of the animal
    is negligable.....it's the upkeep that gonna cost you $$$$ in the long
    run.

    Well said, Michele.
    
    As you all know, I have lost two wonderful purebred cats in the past 2
    years.  Even though I know my breeder had the best intentions when she
    began, she had no one to guide her through the trials and tribulations
    of what breeding entails.  The woman she purchased her cats from took
    the money and only offered advice when asked for it.  She had
    experienced lethal health problems with her cats and that information
    was never passed along to my breeder, nor did she herself think to ask
    about it.  Yes, she is showing her Ragdolls and they carry some pretty
    impressive titles in both TICA and ACFA.  She has also bred the Ragdoll
    Fanciers Club Ragdoll of the Year two years in a row.  Well, BIG DEAL! 
    THREE of their brothers and sisters have already died of genetic heart
    defects, and now she is learning the hard way how serious breeding live
    animals really is.  It is not a "fly by night" endeavor, and every
    novice breeder should have an experienced, knowledgable mentor to
    guide them in their program.
    
    To further back Michele's last statement, obtaining the purchase price
    for my Ragdolls was the easy part.  I am STILL paying back a loan for
    the cost of both cats at the time of their deaths, which is TWICE the
    amount of the purchase price.  I was only reimbursed the purchase price
    for Shelby, my first Ragdoll; Kirby was the "replacement" kitten for
    Shelby.  I was too emotionally drained to fight for the cost of the vet
    bills, and knew my breeder would never have bred the parents had she
    known what was behind them.  It's too bad we both had to learn the hard
    way.  For her, repaying the financial cost was easy, but repaying the
    emotional part was impossible and that was hard to deal with.
    
    At the time of my purchase, I didn't know enough about choosing a
    breeder and she didn't know enough about breeding.  And we both got
    very hurt by our lack of knowledge.  You can bet neither of us will
    ever be making that mistake again!
    
    --Roberta
     

    I would also like to see a definition of amateur breeder as I'm not
    sure where I fall.  I'm very new to breeding and have alot to learn
    but I'm trying to breed responsibly.
    
    I also wanted to say that I don't have trouble with breeders who
    are breeding responsibly and may be breeding types of cats that
    are currently not in fashion.  For example, the "apple-head siamese"
    or the "sweet faced persians".  With the exception of CFF which has
    just created a class for the traditional siamese (I believe) there
    is no way any apple-head siamese would do anything at a cat show.
    I don't think that necessarily means that this style of cat should
    not be bred, responsibly, if there are people who would prefer this
    type.  Also, I think many people would prefer a much less extreme
    persian - the style that might not do so well at cat shows.  These
    are "old fashioned" styles of cats that were the winners at the shows
    10 years ago.  If the lines are sound then I don't think there's
    anything wrong with this.
    
    Opinions?
      Nancy DC

    What I don't understand is the changing of the "breed style"
    as in "old fashioned" vs "new edition".  i.e. the "apple-head"
    vs the "wedge-head" siamese, etc., according to what is the 
    current fad.  I can remember persians with semi-normal faces,
    too, but now they have faces so flat to actually cause eye/breathing
    problems.  A siamese, or persian, or whatever, should not be
    "re-structured" to meet what is currently in fashion.  Do the
    judging standards change from year to year, or do the standards
    set back in the beginning(?) hold?  I am very confused by this
    as I remember the looks of cats at catshows about 20+ years ago.
    (This also goes for horses and dogs, too.  But maybe not as much)
    All the siamese had the same "look", so did the persians, the burmese,
    the abbysinians, etc. Not, however, how they look now.  
    Of course, there are a lot of what I call "man-designed" breeds,
    such as a "ragdoll", which are crosses of certain breeds, and are
    given, for want of a better word, special classifications.
    This doesn't change a breed, only creates a new one.  This I think
    is a facinating thing, to try to create a "New Breed".  But the
    trial & error must output many "imperfect" kittens a.k.a.
    overpopulation.  
    
    Like I said, I'm very confused with the "changes".  Can anyone
    shed some light about this?
    
    L-

    There is a discussion about breed standards and how they are set
    elsewhere in this file.  Check the keywords for more info.
    
    A glance throught the CFA yearbooks of ten years ago will show you
    that the changes in Siamese and Persian head types occured quite
    a long time ago, perhaps more than 10 years ago.  The look that
    these breeds have now is not a current fad.  Unless the definition
    of current includes a 25-30 year span.
    
    I think that to renew the discussion of whether or not breeders
    have ruined the Siamese and the Persian would be to beat a dead
    horse.  This topic has come up many times before.
    
    Jo

    The discussion about Breed Standards is in note 2293 for those looking
    for more information about how breed standards are created, or
    modified.  That note also lists the requirements for becoming a
    breed council member in your chosen breed.
    
    Jo

Another thing to remember about breed standards....those of us in the USA
often think that the first siamese or persian cat we saw 20 - 25 years
ago was the "real" way the cats should look.  Often, the cats were changed
from the original look when brought to the USA from other countries - probably
because the breeders could not find a large enough gene pool to assure healthy
kittens.  They may have bred "out" to another cat breed occasionally in order
to expand the gene pool and prevent the degradation that will eventually
occur if the gene pool is too limited.  I know that is what happened to the
dogs my parents used to breed when I was a child, weimerarners.  That was
30 years ago, so it isn't well known today, nor willing admitted by anyone
involved with the breed.  What breeders are currently doing in many cases
is bringing the USA cats back into line with the international standards.

Having said that, I want to go on record as not liking the wedge-head siamese
(look starved and mean to me) OR the current persian/exotic shorthair 
(these cats look like their underwear is WAY TOO TIGHT at best, sneering at
everything - and the peke-faced models are sad, uncomfortable-looking 
distortions in my opinion).  However, I recognize the international standards
are in line with what is being bred.  

re: definition of "amateur breeder" .vs. any other kind.  I propose that
there are actually 4 kinds of pet animal breeders:

	1) The "professional" breeder - for my purposes, this is the
	   breeder actively involved in cat shows, breed standards negotiations
	   within the cat show circuit, and actively involved in not
	   only breeding pure-bred cats, but breeding "better" pure-breds
	   of the chosen breed.  These are the folks that worry about the
	   genetic mix of a breeding, and they are the folks that have
	   determined "the rules" for beeding healthy kittens...for instance,
	   professional breeders learned the hard way that breeding two
	   Scottish Folds with folded ears was a genetic mistake, and they
	   also learned the rules for breeding manx cats without genetic
	   flaws.  They are also the folks that can spend a fortune to
	   purchase a potential breeder cat, only to neuter or spay the
	   cat if the potential is not realized, rather than breeding
	   herds of "pet quality" kittens or even kittens who may have
	   life-threatening genetic defects.  We cat-lovers owe these folks
	   a lot...without their input, our knowlege of cat care and cat
	   nutrition would be much more limited than it is.

	2) The "amateur" breeder - this is the person starting out to become
	   a professional breeder.  This person either learns from the
	   pros and begins to uphold a standard, or he/she desintegrated
	   into...

	3) The "backyard" breeder - this is the person who doesn't know,
	   and doesn't care, about the standards for the breed.  He/she
	   wants kittens to sell, hoping to make money.  This person will
	   buy cats that "look" like the breed of choice, breed kittens
	   providing the minimum level of care for both breeder and the
	   litter of kittens, and sell them at "bargain" prices.  The breeder
	   female is often bred to death in this environment, throwing litter
	   after litter until complications set in and she dies, taking a
	   litter with her.  The only advantage to this type of breeder is
	   that they tend to stay "small", having a few breeder females
	   and one male in most cases.  These folks like animals, but they
	   are ignorant of their proper care and they choose to remain 
	   ignorant because they want to "save money".

	4) The "kitten farmer" breeders - these are your criminals that
	   warehouse cats in deplorable conditions, breeding for volume
	   head-count of kittens and selling exclusively to pet stores.
	   They breed both pure-breds and american short-haired cats.
	   A backyard breeder can turn into a kitten farmer, but the farmer
	   is usually a coldly calculating individual who plans to get
	   "big" from the start.  These people do not like animals, they see
	   them as a means to an end.

    RE: .22
    
    I like those definitions a lot!!  They sum up my feelings in a
    nutshell.
    
    

	re .22

	I would agree in general, with your definitions with the exception
	of 3  (backyard breeders).  What a load of crap.  To suggest that
	ANYONE who breeds cats and doesn't fall into the first or second
	category is some kind of an idiotic, immoral, unfeeling monster
	is moronic.

	There are lots of responsible backyard breeders; many who read this
	file.  They don't deserve that kind of characterization.  I suspect
	many backyard breeder know as much, and care as much, about cats
	as ANYONE in this conference.

	Because you don't agree with them, is not a reason to trash their
	intelligence and motives.

	Have a nice day,

	Ron O.

    I like your definitions Dian, they are exactly how I would have worded
    them.  Thanks!  :*)
    
    M&N
                

If the breeder takes time to learn about the species and the breed of cat
he/she is working with, then he/she is an amateur breeder...and that is not 
an insult.  The breeders WHO DO NOT KNOW, AND DON'T BOTHER TO LEARN are 
"backyard breeders"...and yes, I accuse them of being ignorant, inconsiderate,
and irresponsible.

A distinction you obviously missed because you didn't read what was written,
but what you EXPECTED to be written.  

With cat population what it is, and with so many cats left without homes,
and KILLED BECAUSE NOBODY WANTS THEM, there isn't any valid reason to 
breed cats except to attempt to improve a breed.  Look at our own "available
for adoption" note if you doubt this...so many beautiful, loving, adult
cats are out there looking for homes, destined to be KILLED when turned
over to shelters, because everyone wants a kitten - and so many seem willing
to dispose of a cat.  I am, quite frankly, sick to death of people who pay
$50.00 for a special breed of kitten without papers and breed a
few litters of kittens to sell cheap....to anyone with the asking price,
whether they are responsible or not, whether they show any indication
of willingness to make a committment to the cat - FOR THE LIFETIME of the cat.
Then the kittens grow up and end up in shelters or advertised in the 
newspapers, or at the vet's office, or just "thrown away".  I spend every
spare cent I have and a great deal of time attempting to rescue these cats...
It is heartbreaking.  The backyard breeders are the PRIMARY source of the
purebred strays/rejects out there...and if they are insulted because I call
them ignorant, so be it.  Reputable, INFORMED breeders have "return clauses" in
their contracts and they screen prospective cat owners to attempt to weed-out
the casual buyers...and they take back their cats if the owner doesn't
want the cat...and they take proper care when breeding...and they cannot
sell kittens cheap.  Period.

	Not to belabor the point, but there are knowledgable, responsible,
        caring cat lovers who will occasionally breed their pets.  They
	have no intention of becoming 'professional' breeders; by your
	definition that makes them 'backyard' breeders.

	I think part of the problem here is that is unfair to attempt to
        pidgeonhole all cat fanciers, and I understand that I started it,
        in an attempt at clarifying my opinions.  In retrospect, I realize
	it was a mistake.

	The bottom line is that every breeding situation has to be evaluated
	on it's own merit.  It may come as shock to some of you folks, but
	it's not that unusual to find a 'professional' breeder who is guilty
	of the same practices you condemn the 'backyard' breeder for.  On the
	other hand I have dealt with 'backyard' breeders who I wouldn't 
	hesitate to recommend to prospective cat owners.

	Ron O

    re: .27 - perhaps there are those folks who only fall into the
    "amateur breeder" category.  They do their best but don't want
    to get into breeding extensively so they never progress to the
    professional level.
      Nancy

    I have owned cats my whole life and have never experienced the
    wonderful joy of seeing kittens born and the proud mom taking such 
    great care of her babies.    I do know that some experiences
    aren't wonderful and it could be expensive...but to this day I still
    feel I have missed out on a wonderful part of kitty life.  
    
    When we got Poco who is a beautiful three colored kitty with alot
    of spirit...both my hubby and I thought long and hard whether we
    wanted her to have one litter before being spayed.  Even though
    deep down we wanted to do let her have a litter....what made us 
    change our mind was:
    
       o I would have interrogated (to death) any person who would have
         wanted to take a kitty to ensure they were going to a good
         home.  Probably so bad...they wouldn't want the kitty after
         that.
                                                         
       o And if we found the right home...I get so attached I would
         have cried for days after it left and would want updates on
         how the kitty was doing.
    
       o And if we couldn't find the right home...I know I would have
         kept each and everyone of them no matter how expensive it is.
                                                                      
    My point here is that if I ever do decide to let any new kitty of
    mine have ONE litter....I do not consider myself IRRESPONSIBLE OR
    NON CARING as long as I take the responsiblity to find the kitties
    a good home (my standards are real high) or keep them myself.
    
    I really do feel I have missed out on a wonderful part of my babies
    lives.  Even after reading all note files about breeding.  
    
    Sandy (Tamba, Poco, and Barkley)
                 
    
    

    Re-.22 - I liked your definitions-I think they apply!
    
    Re-R.O. think generalization, not stereotype!
    
    L-
    

re: .29

Your attitude about the kittens and potential foster parents is very common 
among the professional breeders I know.  (You've done a reasonable job of 
describing my wife, for example.)

A way for you (or anyone) to get their feet wet breeding would be to do so 
under the guidance of someone knowledgable.  You could then get appropriate 
guidance about what would be a good breeding, and coaching through the 
birthing process, and a safety net in case something goes wrong.

We have worked this way with some people.  After trying it, some have 
decided that it wasn't for them, others have decided to persue it.

Ray

    Nancy,
    I would like to feel that I am being professional about my working with
    my cats.  I don't know how many I will end up with and how far I will
    go to show (probably not to CA any time soon).  I work closely with the
    woman I got my cat from and discuss all sorts of things.  As Ray said
    she is there to guide me.  Does this mean I am not professional?  I
    would like to think that I am because of all the time, money, thought,
    preparation I put into this "hobby".  Perhaps not.  What would you
    consider the professional level?
    Karen, Ruby, Stinky, Wing
    
    PS  Of course the people like Cin who have been doing it forever are
    ones that I feel are at this level too. 
    

as the person who proposed the descriptions, I would consider someone who
works with others to select and breed the best possible examples of the
breed, who spends the time/money for the medical/nutritional care necessary
to prepare the female to bear young and assures the appropriate medical
care for both mother and offspring, to be "professional" in their approach
to breeding.  Lets face it, the standard defintion for "professional",
that the individual MAKE money at the task, doesn't really work with breeding
cats or dogs....the overhead is great enough that you can probably manage
to "break even", but to make money, you'd have to BE a licensed vet...

Besides, the amateur who is working to learn about the chosen animals, and
the breeding of these animals is not to be sneered at.  I think that someone
who is serious about breeding will eventually get involved, at some level,
with the establishment and maintenance of "quality" standards for the
chosen breed...it's sorta a natural progression of understanding the
standards and determining whether they are good or bad for the health
and well-being of the animals.  Most folks participate through work with/for
the shows and competitions or by joining breed-specific clubs.  The simple
truth is that you NEED to "have your ear to the ground" concerning defects
and diseases that are discovered for your chosen breed or species, treatments
for and prevention of diseases, and ESPECIALLY the vulnerabilities inherent 
to the breed or certain blood-lines of the breed...and the best way to keep 
up on these things is to KNOW other breeders.

    I guess I just meant that there are some folks who will breed a
    few litters under the guidance of a good breeder following all the
    guidelines of responsible breeding but never get into showing heavily
    or building a cattery reputation.  They will do it for the experience
    and produce healthy, beautiful kittens, and then retire.
      No insult intended.
      Nancy