Conference misery::feline_v1

    It is not good practice to put a whole male cat of any type outside.
    This will allow him to breed freely with the female cats (stray
    and otherwise) and will add to the feline overpopulation problem.
    
    My advice would be that if you have decided that you are definitely
    going to do this, then do it right.  Build your male suitable stud
    quarters in your home.
    
    Siamese...child like cries...???? You have got to be kidding!!!
    :^) :^) :^)  Everyone in your neighborhood will know that your 
    female is in season, including every unneutered tom cat.  Which 
    brings up another interesting point; if you allow your male outside, 
    he will fight with other whole male cats to establish territory 
    and to win females.  This poses a great risk to his health.  Are 
    you aware that whole male outdoor cats are at the highest risk for 
    such fatal diseases as FIV and Felv?
    
    Your female will not be physically mature enough to bear a litter
    until she is at least a year old.  That does not mean that she will
    be considerate enough to not come into heat until then.  She can,
    and probably will, start cycling at 6 months of age.  She can come
    into season as much as every couple of weeks until she is bred.
    A cat can come into season again just days after coming out.
    
    Likewise, your male can mature as early as 5 months.  Don't kid
    yourself, it can happen.  It is even more likely to happen if a
    male and a female are being raised together as they will cause each
    other to mature faster.
    
    If you are dead set on becoming a breeder, get yourself a couple
    of good books on the subject, and start researching now.  You will
    need to know about things like genetics, health care, cattery
    management (as much accounting as the physical management of where
    to put the stud cat), etc.  There is a good book available called
    "Breeding Purebred Cats, A Guide For The Novice And Small Breeder"
    by Anne S. Moore.  Check it out.  If nothing else, it will give
    you a start.
    
    Jo

    You might also considering showing your cats to get a good idea of
    their quality compared to other show siamese cats.  That would give
    you more information on whether or not to breed them.
      Good luck
        Nancy DC who is also a new breeder

    I think Jo said it best.  Being a breeder is more than putting two cats
    together and letting them go at it.  Do you know if the quality of your
    Siamese are of breeding standards?  Do you know anything about genetics
    and the fatal cat diseases or hereditary problems?  I purchased two
    purebred kittens and both of them died of genetic defects!  My breeder
    had wonderful intentions, but absolutely no knowledge whatsoever about
    what breeding entailed.  She ended up having to refund me the purchase
    price of my kittens -- one year later!
    
    Jo is right.  Putting your whole (un-neutered) male outside is not a
    good idea at all, as he will cover a great deal of territory searching
    for unspayed females to mate with and fight with every tomcat in the
    process.  And, he will be exposed to disease by these outside cats. 
    Serious breeders keep their cats indoors, and their males in adequate
    stud quarters.
    
    Please, think long and hard about what you are going to do; if you want
    to breed Siamese cats then do it right.  If you were in the market for
    a new car or major appliance or even a new job, wouldn't you research
    your choices very carefully?  It might be a good idea to learn
    something about cats first, before making the decision to breed them.
    

    I would also not recommend putting your male outside, un-neutered.
    
    Chances are he might stray from your house looking for available
    females....and never come back....become another road statistic....or
    someones lunch...or impreganate a female who got out by accident or was
    let out by an ignorant person.
    
    If you are going to breed.....Please do it with RESPONSIBILITY.
    
     

    I am not a breeder but I do know that the previous replies are very
    good advice. I agree that if you are going to do it, then do it right.
    If you care about your cats, and cats in general, do it right. Do the
    research so that you will be prepared for the (many) negative 
    possibilities. 

    Another point about letting your male cat out is that, in addition to
    getting various diseases, getting mangled in cat fights, or hit by a
    car, he could be stolen. There are unscrupulous people who will steal 
    a purebred animal and then sell it. 

    On the other hand, if you let him run loose indoors he may be mature 
    enough even now to get the female pregnant if she comes into heat -- 
    and you may never see signs of her being in heat. If she is too 
    young and/or not receiving the proper nourishment (because you are 
    unaware she is pregnant), that could cause problems for her and the 
    kittens. Also, the male cat may start to spray indoors, which most 
    people do not consider pleasant. :-)

    Something no one else has mentioned yet is the severe pet over-
    population problem in the U.S. (do I sound like a broken record?).
    I hope you will consider this before you start breeding. Not only do 
    mongrel cats end up in animal shelters, so do purebreds such as 
    Siamese. It doesn't seem to matter if people spend money for an animal; 
    if they don't want it any more, they get rid of it. Just take a look at 
    the adoptions note (415) in this file to see the numbers and types of 
    kittens and cats being given away, and the reasons people give. Visit 
    your local animal shelter and ask them how many Siamese cats they get 
    each year. Most shelter animals are killed due to lack of homes. 

    As you can see, there are a lot of things to think about. There are 
    many informative notes in this file on breeding, overpopulation, and
    indoor-outdoor issues. You might want to take a look at them to get 
    an idea of what you could be getting into and if it's really worth it.

    Good luck! 

    Linda

    I second Jo's idea of reading the book on breeding!  I have a copy of it
    and have gone over it and the cat owners home vetrinary book along with
    many others (old and new).  I still need to go to the "experienced
    ones" for advice.  This is something you really have to be aware of and
    be serious about.  The cost alone can be astronomical!! What if she
    has complications during delivery!  The kits need to be hand fed?
    Death? etc. etc.  There are plenty of siamese kittens and cats of all
    ages out there to be adopted.  Being one of the more popular breeds you
    can find one at any show for sale, also breeders sometimes sell or give
    to a good home a retired queen.  I could go on forever and give all
    kinds of thoughts to this so I will quit now.  If you want to see a
    copy of this book send mail and we can arrange it.
    Karen, Ruby, Stinky, Wing
    

     One other point not mentioned:
    
    Serious breeders sell their pet kittens with spay/neuter agreements
    (contract to be signed by both parties indicating the kitten will be
    spayed/neutered between XX ages).  This is to ensure that only kittens
    of acceptable quality (as set by the breed standard for Siamese) will
    continue to be bred to improve the Siamese breed.
    
    Another thing to consider:  are the pedigrees of your male and female
    compatible for breeding?  The breeder I purchased my purebred kittens
    from is a sweet, generous, terrific person.  But, I should have
    realized in our initial phone conversation that something was amiss
    when I asked her what bloodlines her breeding cats came from and she
    stated, "Can you hold on a minute while I go look them up?"  If I knew
    then what I know now I would never have purchased from her, as nice as
    she is.
    
    I know it sounds as if we are all coming down hard on you but it is
    only because we care about cats, and realize just how serious breeding
    is.  If you knew the love, time, and investment the breeders in this
    file give to their cats and the hundreds of dollars (thousands) of
    dollars they spend to breed responsibly you will understand why this
    topic is so controversial.
    
    You did come to us for advice, and these are our viewpoints.  Please try
    to filter our replies for the valuable information they contain,
    instead of taking them personally (I know that's easier said than done;
    there are a lot of heated, controversial topics in this conference and
    the breeding issue is one of them, along with declawing and
    indoor/outdoor cats).
    
    
    --Roberta
    
    

    re:  8
    
    I don't understand your reply??????

I would like to add one more consideration to becoming a breeder:

Your male is going to develop some very unpleasant habits if he remains whole.
He will require separate, easily cleaned, easily aired-out quarters.  I have
a friend who just "backed-out" of the breeding game because she could not
live with the"

	1) scent marking - often called "spraying" - that the male does
	   EVERYWHERE in the house.

	2) inconsistent litter box habits - sometimes, when the females
	   in the neighborhood were in heat, her whole male would lose
	   the ability to "remember" to use his cat box.  Her female
	   NEVER used the cat box when in heat.

	3) his body odor - he had a bad case of BO all the time - sorta
	   "goaty" was her description.  He had a constant case of stud
	   tail and required a bath AT LEAST ONCE A WEEK.

	4) the damage to the bedroom she used to hold her male.  She did
	   not properly cage him and he has saturated the walls with
	   spray and soaked the carpet where he didn't tear it to shreds
	   trying to get out.  He also did a job on the curtains and
	   blinds.  Needless to say, the bed box springs and mattress
	   are also a total lost.  

Her cats, male and female, are now both fixed.  And she and the cats
are much happier.

If you wish to breed, then please research what it requires....not least
of which is a significant financial investment.  Whatever you decide,
please don't allow un-neutered or un-spayed cats to roam free - not only
do you risk your cats health due to exposure to terminal diseases, but
you add significantly to the pet overpopulation problem.

    E.T.,
    
    I think what .8 is trying to say is that we (the repliers to this note)
    have once again overstepped our boundaries and come down very hard on
    another innocent newcomer to this conference.
    
    At least that is how I interpreted it.  We are circling... .0 is the
    prey.
    
    
    --Roberta
    

    re: 11
    
    ohhhhhhhhhhhhh.  I see.
    
    Roberta, do you think I'm wrong in thinking that maybe we are a bit
    tough on newcomers?  This note probably isn't the place to discuss
    it, but I dunno - we seem to have dipped our toes in some warm water
    lately.  What do you all think??  
    
    E.

    re circling - 
    
    I see note 2261 in a reincarnated form. (not as bad, yet)
    
    jack
    (always with 2 cents to spare)

    No, E.T., you are not wrong.  We can be very tough, but it is only 
    because we love cats and are very sensitive about these controversial
    issues, especially when they involve adding to the pet overpopulation
    problem when not done properly and seriously.  Sometimes it is
    difficult to choose the words carefully, without sounding abrasive.
    
    I have been on the receiving end when the discussions about
    indoor/outdoor cats surface and generalizations are made.  I know how
    .0 and others must feel when they re-open the conference and read the
    replies to their notes.  It is hard not to feel hurt but sometimes the
    truth has to hurt in order for the message to become clear.
    Of course the opposite can happen and the message becomes lost when
    the two viewpoints fight for control...
    
    

    
    
    	As basically a newcomer to this file - lots of reading, but not
    much writing - I feel all of the replies were written well and did not\
    come off too harsh.  What everyone wrote was the truth.  Maybe the
    new breeder to-be just never knew/thought of some of these problems,
    and this note might help her in her decisions (which basically only
    she will decide in the end).  There is nothing wrong with giving
    someone helpful information - there is never too much in a discussion
    like this one.  Better to have alot of info then not enough.
    
    	I personally Congratulate you all on a job well done!  Your hearts
    and heads are in the right place and I believe the base noter will
    understand.
    
    	-Dee
    
    

    
    I sincerely thank-you all for taking the time and interest in setting
    me to thinking about my seriuos responsibilities.I will think about	     	
    all your thoughts .I was most surprised By the numerous responses	
    and I realize you are only trying to help.So I thank-you and	
    I have learned a good deal of valuable information.
    
    
    
            
    
    
    
    
    

    re:12
                                           
    I think the key is that for newcommers this conference may appear 
    a little harsh on certain subjects, we may appear over sensitive,
    and that we don't value other peoples opinions.  But I think the
    most important key is that for people who have joined the conference
    and are regular readers/writers you really start to understand
    how wonderful, caring, and sensitive people are the core of
    this conference.  
    
    I have always said that animal lovers are the best friends you
    could ever have.  Keep up the caring...and all your opinions do
    matter to someone who has to make a decision.
    
    Sandy (Tamba, Poco, and Barkley)
    
    
                                    

    I went back to read the basenote and discovered that its gone.  why?
    I wanted to review the original request in that note.  I guess I"ll
    have to rely on memory.
    
    I believe the basenoter declared her intention to breed siamese cats
    and asked for advice.  That's exactly what she got.  I feel very
    strongly that the replies in this note were well within the limits
    of good noting.  When the day comes that I can not politely express
    my feelings on a subject in this file then I will withdraw.  
    
    Breeding cats into an overpopulated world is a serious consideration
    and I think that is what we have expressed here.  In the past there
    have been very harsh and hurtful notes in this file - I don't find
    any here.
    
    Of course - not being a newcomer I can't give that perspective.  So I'd
    ask the author of the basenote to reply to us.
    
    BTW - I'd like to extend an official invitation to you to join us at
    the cat shows.  There's one in Framingham Mass on 9/23 which is 
    still open for entries (I just got my confirmation yesterday).  If
    you'd information PLEASE contact me.  If you decide to go feel free
    to ask to be benched with Nancy Diettrich-Cunniff.  Catshows are great
    fun and we'd be happy to help.
      Nancy DC

    
    
    I think the base note originator did reply to us in .16.

    In case anyone is wondering why .19 was removed, it is because
    we cannot repost a note that was deleted by the originator without
    the permission from the originator.  Thank you very much .19 for
    taking care of this !!
    
    

    That was well said Nancy (.18).  I think we all did a good job to keep 
    in line......however.....this person may have been excited about her
    plan, and when we let her know that there were some missing details....
    she felt compelled to delete her feline faux pas.

  I am usually a RON (actually I'm always a Ron), but I've been 
  reading this conference for a couple of years, and I'm real tired 
  of hearing the diatribe against the practice of breeding purebred, 
  but unpedigreed, felines.  I've seen 2-3 people chased out of this 
  conference for even suggesting that they might try to mate their pets.

  So I would like to put forth a dissenting opinion on the matter
  and I would also like to try to dispel a few of the arguments against 
  this practice. Before doing so, I'd like to identify the various 
  types of cat owners; they are my definitions, but I believe them to 
  be accurate; I suspect every cat owner in this conference falls into
  one, or more of these categories.


    Cat_Lovers:     From the people who love cats for the companionship 
                    they provide, to the lunatic fringe (and you know who 
                    you are ;), Cat-Lovers have no interest in breeding 
                    and little regard for pedigree; they just love cats.

    Amateur Breeders: The innocents who stumble blindly into this 
                    conference to discuss the breeding of their 
                    purebred, but unpedigreed, felines.  They seek
		    advice, information, and support; they get crap.  

    Show Breeders:  They love their cats, no doubt, but their primary 
                    interest is in 'showing' purebred, pedigreed cats.
                    They are, essentially, hobbyists and they breed 
                    purebreds, in the hope of producing 'show-quality' 
                    kittens.  As an adjunct to their breeding programs,
  		    they also produce 'pet-quality' kittens, which they 
                    sell at exorbitant prices in order to subsidize their 
                    showing/breeding expenses.  
 
                    They are the Righteous.  They have taken it upon 
                    themselves to cajole, intimidate, browbeat, 'educate', 
                    and otherwise discourage Amateur Breeders from producing 
                    unpedigreed kittens.  Their hue and cry is "Only for 
                    the improvement of the breed!", frequently citing cat 
                    overpopulation as another reason unpedigreed purebreds 
                    should be sterilized on sight.

    Cat Farmers:    Those involved in the business of producing low-quality, 
                    pedigreed, purebred cats, for profit.


  My Position:
	
     Overpopulation of pets is a problem.  I don't approve of the 
     indiscrimate breeding of any pets; all outdoor/unsupervised pets 
     should be 'fixed' at the earliest opportunity, as far as I'm concerned.

     However, I see nothing wrong with an Amateur Breeder breeding purebred
     cats as long as he/she is willing to bear the responsiblity of finding 
     suitable homes for the them.
		

  The Overpopulation Argument:    "Too Many Kim Basingers?"

    There is a demand for 'pet quality' purebred kittens;  I have never 
    seen a purebred kitten go unsold in this conference.  The overpopulation 
    argument, as it applies to purebred kittens, is a red herring.

    Yes, purebred adults do end up in pet shelters occasionally.  However,
    I suspect that if you traced the lineage of the purebred cats found
    in shelters, you would more likely find a Cat Farmer or a
    Show Breeder, than an Amatuer Breeder, at the end of the trail.
    Although I don't have the statistics to back it up, I suspect that
    Amateur Breeders are responsible for a very small percentage of all
    purebred kitten sales.

    There is a demand for purebred kittens, and Amateur Breeders provide
    Cat-Lovers with an affordable alternative to the expensive, 'pet-quality'
    kittens sold by Show Breeders and the purebred kittens, of questionable 
    heritage, available at pet stores.


  The 'Improving the Breed' Argument:   "It Ain't Necessarily So!"

    Changing the characteristics of a breed is not, necessarily, improving
    the breed.  Genetic improvment in a breed of anything comes from
    the process of natural selection (survival of the fittest, etc), not 
    by selective breeding.  Show Breeders 'breed in' the desirable 
    qualities of the CURRENT standard, and 'breed out' the undesirable 
    qualities; the outcome is not necessarily an improvement.  Once a breed
    becomes static, CHANGING the standard (thus changing the breed) becomes 
    necessary in order to perpetuate the 'showing' aspect of the hobby.

    Persians are a perfect example of the point I'm trying to make.  Persians
    (IMBO) can have the prettiest, sweetest, most expressive faces of any 
    breed and I find it disturbing that Show Breeders (having perfected the 
    'pretty-faced' standard) have created the current prototype; a disfigured, 
    fierce-looking mutant that resembles a cross between an Ewok and a
    a Gremlin.

    You would be hard pressed to find a Cat-Lover, or a veterinarian for that
    matter, to agree that the Persian breed has been 'improved' by the 
    'pig-nosed' Persian fad currently in vogue.  The current standard is not
    aesthetically pleasing and it promotes respiratory problems in the breed.


  Ethics, or Economics?    "Not in my backyard, you don't"

    It should come as no surprise that the people most vociferous in their
    opposition to Amateur Breeders are the Show Breeders, who compete with 
    Amateur Breeders for the 'pet-quality' kitten market.

    The quality and conditions of ownership are essentially the same for
    'pet-quality' kittens, regardless of whether they come from an Amateur
    Breeder or a Show Breeder.  Both types are purebred examples of a breed,
    and they can never produce pedigreed offspring; the only substantial
    difference is a piece of paper and the price.


  In conclusion, I believe there is a place for both types of breeders.
  Cat_Lovers who cannot, or will not, pay $250-$400 for a 'pet-quality' 
  kitten should have the option of buying a purebred kitten at a reasonable
  price; the Amateur Breeder fills this void.  Those of us who wish to pay
  the extra money for pedigree, can buy our kittens from Show Breeders.
 


  Ron (Flak-jacket on, helmet in place)


  BTW:  Show Breeders, please don't take this as a frontal attack on your
        hobby, or as a personal attack on you as individuals.  You provide 
        a lot of valuable information/insight on cats, and I am very grateful 
        for your contributions.  I just don't agree with your position or the
	condescending manner in which you treat well-meaning, Amatuer Breeders.

re: .23

I went back and re-read the base note when the first comments came thru
on the "harshness" or our responses...the base note asked for advice on
breeding cats.  The plan was put forth that the male siamese would be
"left outside" while the female was in heat...the first thought that came
to me was that the base noter did not understand female cat heat cycles
at all or they would have known the female, when exposed to a whole male,
cycles into heat and stays there almost continuously until bred.  None of
the responses that I read told the base noter to NOT BREED.  We all tried
to offer some information on the subject - what the cats are like when
left whole, the problems that surround the actual delivery of the kittens,
some of the problems that can afflict the female and the kittens,
etc.  Yes, we did ask that the male cat not be left outside to impregnate
other cats, get into fights, and be exposed to Felv OR OTHER TERMINAL
DISEASES; this was an expression of legitimate concern for the cats involved,
but it was not a demand that the cat be neutered.  Noone said "DON'T DO IT",
we suggested the base-noter learn something more about it, before plunging 
into the breeding game.

If someone asks for advice, they have to expect that the advice may not
be encouraging.  If what they want is someone to say, "YOU ARE TOTALLY
RIGHT AND DON'T NEED TO LEARN ANYTHING OR DO ANYTHING ELSE", they have to
ask for that kind of support somewhere else.

I am curious as to what kind of advice you expected us to offer....were
we supposed to say it was okay to put a whole male outside to get torn
up while the female was in heat?  Were we supposed to say there are no
problems associated with pregnancy and delivery?  Or that it isn't
important to know about the potential lethal genetic problems that pure-bred
cat breeds can have?

	I thought the first few replies provided some excellent information;
	they were informative and provided the basenote author with the type
	of input that he was seeking, as well as some excellent unsolicited
	advice.  But once the information was dispensed, the sermonizing began.

	The fact that the basenote author deleted the basenote, and headed
	for the hills, should tell you something about his/her perception of
	the 'tone' of the replies.

	Ron

    re:.25
    
    
    the base noter entered another reply

    re: .23
    
    FLAME ON:     
    
    I know that your note was a statement of your opinions, but I must
    say that I am greatly offended.  
    
    I guess by your definition I fall into the catagory of "show breeder".
    And boy, what a definition that is.  Well, I am a cat lover.  The
    fact that I legitimately breed and exhibit my purebred cats does
    not mean that I do not love cats.  Not just my own cats, but all
    cats.
             
    The base noter was asking for advice about what to do when his female
    was in season, but not yet ready to be bred.  I offered what I felt
    was good advice....read up on the subject.  Don't get in over your
    head.  I also told the base noter that it was not a good idea to
    put the male siamese outside when the female was in season.
    
    To the things that I listed that could happen to the male when he
    is outside, let me add one more.  HE COULD BE SHOT BY SOME IDIOT.
    Maybe the reason that I am so sensitive to your note is that I have
    just spent the morning waiting for news on my Laci, who was shot by 
    some idiot when she managed to escape the house during the night.
    One of the cats managed to push out a screen and Laci got outside.
    She is on the operating table fighting for her life right now and
    I am consumed with worry.
    
    I consider myself to be a valuable member of this conference, and
    feel that I usually don't add to a note unless I have something
    important to add, or unless I have some bit of useful information.
    This reply may be the exception since it is loaded with emotion.
    I truly resent your implication that I am only doing this for
    the money, or the rosettes, or that I like to discourage others
    from breeding purely because I don't like the competition that they
    represent when it comes to selling kittens.  That is not true. 
    As far as kitten sales goes, I haven't had a problem.  But, as far
    as breeding problems go, I have had my share.
    
    Breeding is a serious financial drain, and anyone who is thinking
    of getting into it should research it first and know exactly what
    they are getting into.  That is my intention in this file, to help
    others to see exactly what they are getting into, and to help them
    be more aware of what can happen. 
    
    If you see this position as one of condescension, then you are entitled
    to your opinion.  I just want to go on record as saying that I feel
    that my purpose is to help new breeders, just as I was helped when
    I was starting out.
    
    Jo

    Okay, I'm not going to respond to any of the sh*t in this note except
    the part about the persian breed.  
    
    The "pig" style persians are a much healthier improvement over their
    lower nosed ancesters.  If you've never bred or had both types of the
    breed, please don't generalize.  
    
    With the "pig" style persians, the nose break is now above the eyes,
    rather than centered between them blocking the tear ducts.  Therefore,
    there are less prone to tearing, and eye infections and breathing
    problems as their previous generations have been.  
    
    So, they may not be prettier, but they are healthier.
    
    steaming...
    cin
    

	re .28

	Jo, I had no problem with the informative reply that you made to the
	basenote, as I indicated in .25.  And maybe I should have been clearer
	but I did not suggest that a Show Breeder could not be a Cat-Lover,
	as well.  From your notes, I know that you are both.

	re. 29

	cin,

	Apparently your view on the relative health of pretty vs. pig is not
	universal, though you could be right.  I based the statement on
	comments made by my vet, who I have enormous respect for, and the few
	Persian breeders I've talked to.  I don't remember what they had to
        say about tearing, etc., though our 'pretty' Persian does have a
        tearing problem, occasionally.  We have never owned a severely peked
	Persian, so I don't have that much first hand knowledge.
	

    
    
    Most Noters do "provide a lot of valuable information/insight on
    cats" that we all do appreciate.  Some however, should participate 
    in the RO mode.
    
    
    

My question still has not been answered.  You jumped on us for "lecturing",
when what we were doing was giving information about what the new breeder
needs to know BEFORE breeding the cats.  The expense, the potential health
problems of the breeding cats and the kittens, the behavior of the whole
breeding cats, and the behavior of the other cats in the neighborhood when
a breeding female is in heat is ALL important information about which the
base-noter did NOT indicate any foreknowledge.  The suggestion to find out
about the potentially lethal genetic flaws that may exist in the breed was
EXTREMELY timely information.  Uninformed "backyard" breeders are a primary
source for these problems in the first place.  Responsible breeders learn
about their breed, the potential for defects, and select breeder mates for
their cats only after exhaustive searches of animal pedigrees.  The attempt
is not to breed the most expensive cat, but to breed the healthiest, strongest,
most intelligent, most beautiful cat possible.  It isn't easy, it isn't
cheap to maintain the cats, and it isn't something a person should start
without a great deal of information beforehand.

    Not only has this notes file provided valuable information and insight,
    it has provided emotional support that was much needed during times
    of loss and illness by caring people.  I know we are all entitled
    to our opinions but perhaps the RO mode SHOULD definitiley apply
    to SOME more than others.
    
    Thanks, I feel better now,
    
    
    Giudi + 3

    The RO mode?
    
    Sorry, guys, but I never get the punchline of most jokes either :^}
    
    Feline uninformed,
    
    Roberta
    

    Re:  34
    
    RO = "read only".  .31 came up with that one.  Kind of liked it
    so I used it. (Marlene - hope you don't mind - ha ha ha!)
    
    
    Giudi - Feline Relieved

    re: .30
    
    I appreciate that you had no problem with my reply to the original
    basenote, but I still think that your catagorizing of the folks
    in this file was offensive.  As to the comment that you did not
    suggest that a Show Breeder could not be a Cat-Lover, I would say
    that you might want to go back and reread the note that you entered
    in .23.  I have gone back and read it myself.
    
    >>"Cat lovers have no interest in breeding and little regard for
    >>pedigrees; they just love cats"
    
    I think that excludes me since I have a definite interest in breeding
    and very high regard for pedigrees.
    
    >>Show Breeders:  "They love their cats, no doubt, but their primary
    interest is  in 'showing' purebred, pedigreed cats.  They are
    essentially hobbyists...they also produce 'pet-quality' kittens,
    which they sell at exhorbitant prices in order to subsidize their
    showing/breeding expenses."
    
    My primary interest is in the health of my cats.  I am not a hobbyist,
    my cattery is my life.  I do not sell my pet kittens in order to
    subsidize my showing/breeding expenses, I work at DEC for that.
    The words hobbyist, exhorbitant, and subsidize all have very negative
    connotations to me and I take offense at their use in this context.
    
    >>"They are the Righteous (the show breeders). They have taken it
    upon themselves to cajole, intimidate, browbeat, 'educate', and
    otherwise discourage Amatuer Breeders from producing unpedigreed
    kittens."
    
    We, the show breeders of this file, have been working with cats
    for many years, and have come upon many situations that we can and
    do share with the other noters of this file.  We are a valuable
    source of information.  When we can, we offer suggestions, information,
    pointers to more information, support, and anything else that we
    can think of.  Many of the regular noters of this file, those with the most
    information to offer, are what you term Show Breeders.  It hurts
    me that my input is being thought of as cajoling, intimidating,
    browbeating, or discouraging to another noter.  If that is the way
    the average RON feels, then perhaps I should restrict my participation
    to those "cute cat" stories that offer just a simple diversion in
    an otherwise busy day.  But, that is not the reason that I note
    in this file.  I note in this file in order to learn and to share.
    
    I think that we all will have to be careful about what generalizations
    we make about breeders, non-breeders, and each other.
    
    Jo                                  
    

    re: .23
    
    Under the heading of the Overpopulation Argument you also stated
    that the purebred cats that are in shelters can be traced back to
    Cat Farmers (AKA Kitten Mills?) and Show Breeders.  On what do you
    base this observation?  Most show breeders have contracts that clearly
    state that if the cat can not be kept by the new owner, for any
    reason, that the Show Breeder will take it back.  My own contract
    also forbids the new owner from leaving my kitten at the pound,
    humane society, any type of shelter, or the pet store.  Instead,
    the cat is to be returned to me, so that I can either provide it
    with a home myself, or find it a new home.  For this reason, I feel
    very certain that none of my kittens or cats will to worry about
    ending up in the pounds.  How many Amateur Breeders will guarantee
    a cat of their breeding a home for the rest of it's life????  How
    many Amateur Breeders do you think will still be interested in breeding
    a couple of years down the road when one of the cats they bred is
    in need of a good home???  How many Amateur Breeders do you actually
    know that offer contracts with their kittens???
    
    And, on another point, who do you think supplies those pet stores
    with those kittens of questionable heritage???  The amateur breeders
    and the kitten mills, that is who.  Show Breeders, being that they
    are members of organized cat associations that have by-laws and
    constitutions, are forbidden from selling any kittens to a pet store
    or other similar retail establishment.  The breed clubs also forbid
    the sale of kittens to pet stores, as do most cat clubs.  We Show
    Breeders police ourselves, do the Amateur Breeders do that??  The
    Amateur Breeders are just as likely to have bought there breeding
    cats from a Pet Store, and decided to breed in order to recoup the
    exhorbitant price that they paid there.
    
    I better quit, this has been a gawd-awful day and I don't need to
    make it worse.
    
    Jo

    I want to make one other point about the breeders in this file -
    and, you know, I'm not sure what category I fall into - they ALL
    have a deep committment to the feline population of the world. And
    NOT just purebreds.  
    
    How many of the breeders have Moggies as well as their purebreds?
    
    How many of the breeders have taken in stray, abandoned or feral
       cats or have otherwise directly contributed to the rescue of
       these cats with contributions if they could not house the cats
       themselves?
    
    Certainly its not just the "breeders" in this file who have made
    these contributions, but I think those actions demonstrate a love
    and committment to cats that runs much deeper than a hobby.  
    
      Nancy DC

    re: .23
    
    I am EXTREMELY offended by your note and categorization of breeders.
    
    In fact, I don't dare say another word.......but I wanted you to know
    that I think that it is.....never mind.....
    
    Michele (A novice breeder (of different animal) who LOVES all types
	    of cats)

    Just to continue this discussion on overpopulation - 
    
    Legitimate breeders sell two types of kittens, Show quality and Pet
    quality.  When a pet quality kitten is sold, it's done (by and large)
    with the stipulation that the kitten is to be spayed/neutered. That
    keeps the overpopulation problem in check, and also keeps the quality
    of the pedigreed cats higher, since the "lower quality" papered cats
    can't be bred.  
    
    Backyard breeders may not be in it for the money, (we've seen examples
    of people breeding apparent purebreds just to ensure the availability
    of "purebreds" to people that don't want to spend a lot of money), but
    I don't believe that any of these folks would either take a cat back
    anytime after it's sold, or require that the kittens were spayed.
    That's the main reason that they're frowned upon. Legitimate breeders
    don't sell cats to make money, and few would sell a cat to someone that
    couldn't afford it. (What kind of medical care would such an owner
    provide?)
    
    I agree that newcomers to FELINE are subjected to strong feedback,
    sometimes more than is warranted, but I feel that the people in the
    notefile are only acting out of their love and concern for animals.
    When people care this much, they at times get carried away by their
    passion. It isn't "wrong", (emotions aren't subject to "right" and
    "wrong"), but sometimes the results achieved aren't the intended ones.
    
    Oh well. We're all here to learn, I hope.
    
    jack
    (who, having said this much, will now go to read-only mode for a while.)

    Sorry not to have been around yesterday afternoon - I was off site for
    the entire afternoon.
    
    It's obvious things are 'bit hot' here.  I'd really appreciate
    all of you taking this topic off line, and adding no further
    replies to this note.  I appreciate the way you have all handled
    this inspite of the strong feelings involved.  Thank you all.
    
    
    E.T._MODERATOR_FOR_ONE_WEEK_ONLY_WITH_TWO_DAYS_LEFT

    
    Please add NO additional replies to this note.
    
    If you wish to discuss the subject further, please either use
    mail or start a new note.
    
    Thank you, Moderator

    
    This is my third request to have no more replies added to this
    note.  If anyone wishes to discuss breeding/showing or anything
    else, please start a new note.
    
    I have hidden ALL of the notes after my first request.
    
    I am now setting this entire not to be WRITE LOCKED.
    
                          Moderator