Conference misery::feline_v1

    Russell, I have never had a pregnant cat, but I do have friends who are
    breeders.  All of them are present during the birthing process, because
    if there are problems, they will have to assist.  I think you should
    plan on being there when Fudge is due to deliver.
    
    That's all I know.  Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
    

    I was new to the kitten birthing process also when Tigger had her
    litter.  I didn't even know exactly when she was due.  There was no
    warning; one day when I got home my husband said he heard noises
    upstairs and went up to my walk-in closet.  Tigger had made herself at
    home in an empty corner, and was birthing happily.  Three kittens were
    born in the space of 24 hours, the last being born the next morning. 
    After birth of each, Tigger would wash them off, and she did a great
    job.  Also, she did not leave her brood for a few days, so I put down
    water for her in a corner of the closet.  I also spread out a comforter
    for them all to be on.  I put a cardboard box with kitty litter in
    there mainly for Mom, since (to my great amazement) it appears that
    Mother cat takes care of anything her baby's do for quite awhile (two
    weeks or more!)  
    
    Tigger did not seem to want the water, nor use the box.  (Tigger is the
    mother).  She did leave her family periodically to eat, etc.
    downstairs.  Now that her kids are up and downstairs and have trained
    themselves, pretty much, she is VERY ANXIOUS to go outside.  She does
    not give appearance, other than her anxiety, of being in heat, but the
    vet assures me they can go into a false heat and get pregnant even when
    they are nursing, so if you don't want another pregnancy right away,
    keep her in!
    
    As for other cats, I had problems with Sam hissing at the mother cat,
    and they used to be bosom buddies.  He doesn't bother her anymore, but
    will hiss at the kittens if they are in his face.  It seems to be a
    point of honor with him, but that is all he does.  I've noticed that he
    prefers to be outside most of the time now, and that could be the
    kittens or the nice weather.  But I think he'll adjust.  The other cat,
    Murphy, is old, and can't be bothered with any of it.  I don't even
    know if he notices them!  I would say with litter mates, there might be
    some original hissing at the kittens, and you might want to separate
    them from the actual place of birth.  
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Betsy

    (Re:  .2)  I have one more thing to add, and that is about touching the
    kittens after birth.
    
    I had heard horrible stories about mothers actually rejecting kittens
    that had been touched by human hands up until two weeks after birth! 
    My own personal experience was that we were very well known to Tigger,
    having had her for a year previously.  We did not try to touch the
    kittens until about 3 days after birth.  They had been cleaned off, and
    were fuzzy and dry.  Even then, Mom watched very closely, but allowed
    us to play with them.  When she started pacing around, we gave them
    back to her--usually only about 15 minutes a day.  
    
    Tigger also calls her kittens--a high pitched chirping noise--now a
    meow at all.  And they come right to her!

    I handle all my kittens immediately after birth, and have never had a
    mother reject her kittens.  I personally feel they should be handled
    and socialized as quickly as possible.
    
    cin
    

    I see no reason to separate the sister.  She may even become a
    babysitter for the mother and let the kittens nurse on
    her (especially if she has had kittens before).  Mothering kittens
    and puppies is a natural instinct for female cats and dogs alike.
    We once had a litter of kittens and our beloved female dog fell
    madly in love with them and would curl up with them let them
    nurse when the mother cat was not around.  She even growled at
    the mother cat once when mother nudged one of the kittens who
    was wondering too far away!
    
    I would personally wait until the kittens are a few days old before
    introducing Aunie to the little ones and see how Mom responds.
    She may welcome having a sitter while she is away from the babies!
    
    Here is funny story about kittens.  When I moved into my apartment
    I noticed that the home owner's cat was pregnant.  I have a large
    red long hair male - Patrick (who happens to be fixed). Well one
    hot night I got up to let Patrick out and the female happen to come in.
    I believe the screen door was not tightly closed.  Anyway the next
    morning I got up and saw the female cat and shooted her not realizing
    she had her kittens in my closet!  I went to work and then to a class
    after work and didn't get home until 8:30 PM.  When I went into the
    house the female cat made a beeline past my legs and headed for the
    closet.  When I pulled back my garmet bag there was a little of
    4 kittens!  And my Patrick was in the apartment all day with them!
    I have no idea what he did - I am sure they must have been crying
    all day for their mother! By the way the kittens were fat and healthy
    and didn't seem affected by being away that long from mom!
    
    Good luck with your babies.
    
    Mary and Patrick
    
    
      

    I made it a point to be present when Halie had her kittens and
    I'm glad I did.  She had 7 kittens from about 6:40 am to 10:15 am.
    By the time #7 was born she was pretty exhausted and showed no
    interest in taking care of the kitten.  I broke the sack, cut the
    cord and wiped if with a facecloth to stimulate it.  
    
    Halie is a very relaxed mother.  She doesn't worry about the other cats
    (except Batman who she chased off one day when he was "visiting" the
    kittens) and tolerated not only my presence but my neighbor's presence
    as well during the birthing process.  I think its an individual 
    trait.
    
    I would get some instruction from your vet.  In fact, your cat should
    go in for a check around 49 days.  Make sure you know what to expect
    and the danger signs to look for that would tell you its time to
    call the vet - or intervene.  Diane Levin was good enough to loan
    me her copy of "the book of the cat" which has a section on birthing
    kittens and I found it helpful.  Also, get yourself some KMR & a 
    bottle to have on hand incase you have to help mommy feed the kittens.
    With Halie's 7 we did need to supplement the feeding some.
    
    I handled the kittens pretty early on too.  I tended to leave them
    to Halie most of the time during the first few days, but I was there
    alot.  I know they knew I was around because one or more of them
    would lift their head and hiss at me!  This took the form of opening
    their mouths and breathing hard.  At first I thought something was
    wrong.  Then I realized the little brats were hissing at me!!
    Cats have such nerve!
      Nancy DC

    Would someone please tell me what KMR is (I know that it's a cat food
    for kittens).  What I don't know is:  (1) Is it called KMR, or does KMR
    stand for something else?  (2) Is it dry, moist or wet?  (3) Cans or
    bags?  (4) Do most supermarkets carry it?  (5) How long do you use
    it--supplement or primary food source for kittens?
    
    You can see I've never heard of it, except in this notesfile.  Any
    information you can give me would be helpful.

    KMR = Kitten Milk Replacer.  It is called KMR.
    
    Powder form
    
    Cans
    
    Best bet is to buy it in a feed or pet supply store.
    
    
    

    KMR also comes premixed in cans so you don't have to mix it.  The
    powder must be mixed with water, and usually ends up lumpy.  Since
    the powder doesn't seem to last much longer than the cans, I usually
    just by the cans or make my own.  You can buy KMR at the pet store,
    feed store, vet's office, or at a cat show.  It is always good to
    have on hand when you are expecting kittens.
    
    Having just gone through a delivery, I can attest to the need to
    stay with the queen if you can.  This sometimes means calling in
    sick, or rearranging your schedule to work at home.  I am glad that
    I was home with Limoges since she had complications.  We could have
    lost the litter and Limoges had I not been there.
    
    I handle the kittens from the moment of birth, and continually
    throughout their infancy.  This does not upset my queen's, in fact,
    they seem to expect it.  I weigh each kitten every day, and record
    it's weight gain/loss for my own benefit.  That way, if one starts
    losing, I know that it needs supplementing.
    
    I would keep the pregnant queen and your other cat separated.  I
    keep my pregnant girls isolated from the others to protect her and
    her babies from picking up illnesses.  The pregnant/lactating queen
    and her kittens are very susceptible to picking up illness.  If
    you plan to let them together at all, I would at least wait until
    the kittens receive their first vaccinations (between 6 and 9 weeks).
    Also, don't let the kitten's near any cat that was recently vaccinated
    with a modified live virus vaccine, as the vaccinated cat will shed the
    virus in it's urine.       
    
    Jo

    re: .9  Jo  Dundee is due for his 4-in-1, rabies and FLV boosters
    How long to I need to keep him away from the kittens to protect
    them?  They'll be getting Fel-o-vac this weekend but that is
    only a three-in-one.  
      Nancy

    Nancy,
    
    You might want to consider using the Fel-o-vac on Dundee.  I think it's
    safer to use all killed vaccines in an environment with young kittens,
    and breeding cats.
    
    I'm not sure there are many benefits to using the modified live vs the
    killed vaccines, and I'm terrified of the 4-in-1's.
    
    cin
    

    re:  4-way
    
    Lordy, I, too, am terrified of the live 4-way.  About three years ago,
    a vet came to the house and vaccinated everyone - it took me 18 months
    to clear up their eyes!  They weren't bad, but noticable stuff was
    in the corners of everyone's eyes.  I had asked for the 3-way, and
    he decided to use the 4-way.  I never used that vet or the 4-way
    again and probably never will.  About 4 or 5 breeders last year
    had horrible eye problems from using 4-way.  They ended up keeping
    their kittens weeks longer than planned because of their eye problems-
    they had to spend $$$$$ on medications that didn't work.  I couldn't
    believe the number of folks that had the same problem.
    
    The catalog I order vaccines from has a warning beside any vaccine
    containing clamydia - I don't think I'd use it even if it came in
    a killed form.
    
    

    another question:  Jo, do you or Cin vaccinate your breeding girls
    and studs for FELV?  Anything new on that issue?
    
    E.T.

    No, E.T., I don't vaccinate anyone in my house for FelV....I test
    everyone regularly....females at least once a year, just before
    breeding, and males usually 2 or 3 times....I also test the kitties I'm
    showing more frequently.  
    
    I heard that Fort Dodge is working on a killed Chlymidia vaccine.  If
    it comes in killed form, I may begin using it.  The killed form, only
    stimulates the immune system, but doesn't infect the cat with the
    virus.
    
    cin
    

    I agree with Cin, I would vaccinate Dundee with all killed vaccines,
    (Felovax PCT), or I would keep him totally separated from the kittens
    until they are sold and gone.  You would be taking a big risk in letting
    them be together, with him vaccinated with modified live.  For a
    time-frame, I am pretty sure that it is up to three weeks after
    vaccination that they can shed the virus.
    
    I do not vaccinate my Birmans for Felv either.  I do test
    them though.  Once a year if they are not going to any outside
    catteries for stud service.  If they are going for outside stud
    service, I test before they leave, and then test again about a month
    after they get back.  Of course, for that month before they are
    tested, they are isolated from all the other cats.  I also test
    for FIV now.                 
    
    I used to use the 4-in-1 shots, and did have occasional eye problems.
    Since I have switched to the Felovax PCT (all killed), I have not
    had one cold or eye infection with my kittens.  Quite a feat.
    
    Jo
    

to continue the vaccine discussion:

I live with 4 indoor-only cats who have all repeatedly tested negative for
FeLV.  I decided to stop vaccinating them for FeLV as their chance of
exposure is, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, virtually null - given our living
circumstances.  Do you think I'm right on this, or do you guys recommend
the vaccination?

    I do not use the FeLV vaccinations - if I were sure they were 
    worth doing, I would, except on whole females and stud males.
    I test the 'house', but don't vaccinate.
    
    I, too, use only killed vaccine and have had NO PROBLEMS at all.  Not
    even a slight reaction!  It's wonderful!
    
    

    Dian,
    
    I feel the same way that you do.  The stress on the immune system
    from the Felv vaccine is greater than the benefits that your cats
    might be receiving from the vaccine.  They are indoors only, they
    are not exposed to other cats.  The vaccine is an altered vaccine,
    not modified live, but not killed either.  It puts tremendous stress
    on the immune system.  It is also the first vaccine of it's kind.
    I have no plans to start using it on my breeding cats, although
    I have used it on the household pets in the past.
    
    Jo

    I'm not sure I understand this - are you saying that its only
    the 4-in-1 and NOT the Rabies or FLV shots that I need to worry
    about.  If so then I'll consider using the 3-in-1 for now on Dundee
    but I fully intend to get him his rabies & FLV shots.  I believe
    in vaccinating all my cats including Bonnie.  Halie and Batman are
    not vacinated against FLV.  I know Halie has had no Rabies shot.
    I don't know about Batman. 
    
    I have purchased Felovac's for the kittens first shots and Eclipse
    4KP (Killed Panleukopenia) for their 2nd & 3rd shots.  I will verify
    with the vet before using the latter.
      N

    Wasn't it any live or modified live vaccine.  Most breeders
    seem to NOT vaccinate their breeding girls and boys for FeLV.  
    Some breeders have had problems with vaccinated girls.
    I guess that just because a vaccine is available, doesn't mean
    it is good to use it or that it will benefit an animal.  The FelV
    shots are LESS than 80 % effective and I believe have modified live.
    Something I wouldn't touch.  I don't think enough testing has been
    done on the FelV.  It's much safer to use killed.  I have had vets
    tell that there is no problem using live, well I have had problems,
    I know MANY people that have had problems, but I guess the vets still
    have to support the drug companies.  The killed protects the animal
    withl no side effects - it works very well.  My goal is to boost
    their immunity, no give them the disease with live vaccine.
    I don't think I will ever forgive that vet that I had to the house
    for giving my crew 4-way live!  It was like I had a whole housefull
    of yuk for a while until I got it under control.  
    
    I belive Dr. Brody uses 3-way - he feels that for the short amount
    of protection you get to the Chlamydia (approx. 6 months), that it
    isn't worth including it  - you would have to revaccinate often and
    it causes enough problems to really not make it worth it.  I think
    each vet will have a different opinion.  I had live experience - 
    I won't use it.
    
    E.T.

    I think that most breeder decline to use the FelV shots....there have
    been some reports of females that have produced FelV + kittens after
    having been vaccinated.  FelV is very hard to transmit from cat to cat
    as long as your using good isolation techniques, so *I* think you take
    more risk by vaccinating, than not.  It's always going to be a personal
    choice, and opinions will differ from breeder to breeder.  
    
    My vet warned against 4 way vaccines....so I've stayed away from those. 
    He doesn't use them at all in his office.  He does use modified live 3
    ways, but agrees that in my environment, an all killed vaccine is
    definitely the safest route.
    
    I don't do rabies shots either, and this is another personal choice,
    although, I do suggest that kitten buyers discuss the option with their
    vet.  Many vets suggest waiting till at least 6 months for rabies
    shots.  BTW, I also suggest that kitten buyers also discuss the FelV
    vaccine with their vet.  I've only done rabies shots on cats that are
    flying or traveling outside of the country, because you have to.  My
    cattery situation is such that in order to get out, or eat something
    rabid, my cats or the "animal" would have to make it through at least 3
    closed and locked doors.  Very unlikely possibility.  
    
    Like I said before....these are all personal choices, and we should
    each do whatever makes us most comfortable.
    
    cin
    

    Any vaccine that is live will be shed by the vaccinated cat.  So,
    giving Eclipse 3-in-1 won't help.  You would still have to keep
    him separated from the kittens.
    
    Jo

    Jo,
    
    Do you see any advantage to modified live vaccines vs killed...except
    the price, that is???
    
    cin
    

    I am not sure if I understand the question Cin, but I will give
    it a try.  
    
    I do not see any advantage of giving Modified Live vaccines instead
    of Killed.  Is there a price difference?  I think the Killed are
    fairly inexpensive (I pay $10.19 for a ten dose tank).  I can't
    remember exactly, but I think the 4-in-1's that I used to use ran
    be about $1.99 a piece. (wow!  I just checked my Foster and Smith
    catalog, they ask $2.25 for 4-in-1 and $19.99 for the killed tanks!!
    I am getting a really good price from California Vet Supply!!)
                 
    If you are getting your vaccines done at your vet's office, you
    might not have much of a choice.  Some vet's only give one type
    or another, and do not give the client a choice.  Might be interesting
    to find out what type your vet uses.
    
    Jo

    re: jo and cin-
    
    How are you testing your cats for Felv.
    
    Michele (who is looking for a way to have 15-20 cats done as cheap as
            possible)

    I still don't have an answer to my question.  Let me re-phrase:
    Are rabies or FLV shots modified live or killed.  I'm under the
    impression that the FLV shot is not even killed virus its just
    protein from the virus. 
    
    I am not going to vaccinate the kittens for Rabies or FLV, I'm
    just concerned with Dundee shedding virus from his Rabies & FLV
    shots.  I will use the Felovac on Dundee instead of letting the
    vet give a 4-in-1.
    
    Nancy

    I think I answered this a while back, but, I FelV test all my cats
    regularly.  Breeding females get tested at least once a year, usually
    prior to breeding, or just after, depending on if I'm doing the
    breeding in my house, or it's an outside stud service.  If it's outside
    stud, then they get tested before, and about 30 days or so after. 
    Males get tested twice yearly at least, and if they're with an outside
    queen, then they get tested about 30 days after breeding.  The cats
    that I'm showing get tested about 3 times a year....I figure they end
    up with the most exposure.  
    
    My vet charges $10 each for the testing.  Although, I've also been
    using the saliva tests regularly because they're a little less
    expensive, and I don't have to stress the cat with a blood test.  I
    especially use the saliva tests if I'm testing a cat that has been bred
    already.
    
    As far as the cost of vaccines, that's what I meant Jo.  The Fel-O-Vax
    vaccines (all killed) seem to be the most expensive ones.  The modified
    live ones all seem to run between .80 and $1.00, and the Fel-o-Vax is
    $1.29....not that that's much different of a price!  ;-)
    
    cin
    

    Maybe the preloaded Fel-O-Vax are a bit more than the tank.
    
    I like the preloaded, but may consider the tank next time.  Not sure.
    
    E.

    Elaine,
    
    By the time you buy the syringes, the cost is about the same, and
    there's no hassle with the preloaded.  Also, you don't dull the needles
    inserting them into the tank!  
    
    cin
    

    Yeah, I guess between that and the shipping cost preloaded is fine.
    The diaphram on the tank is a rubber material - I would worry more
    about contaminating the tank itself rather than a dull needle. But,
    it sure is easy with preloaded !!!  They are NICE!  
    
    I remember way back when, I did volunteer work at the Malden Hpospital
    (100 years ago), I worked in Central Supply - hospitals didn't have
    disposable syringes or disposable anything, one of my jobs was to
    sharpen the needles so they could be sterilized and and reused.  
    It's amazing how things change in 30 years !!
    

    Nancy,
    
    Felv is not killed, but is is not exactly modified live either.
    It has been described to me as being a protein derivative, and a
    genetically altered vaccine.  I don't like the sounds of either,
    and can't swear whether either description is right.  
    
    I think that rabies is killed, but I would check with my vet if
    I were you.  If it was a killed vaccine, then I don't know why most
    types of it still call for IM injection.  Seems that if it was killed,
    all brands would be sub-q injectable.
    
    I play it safe and keep my kittens separated from all other cats
    except for their moms.  If you choose to let them mingle, my advice
    would be to vaccinate them at least once (better if you vaccinate
    them twice before mixing), and not let them have access to any cat
    that has been vaccinated with any type of modified live vaccine.
    
    I am sure that it sounds to you like the rest of us are being paranoid,
    and that our cats are growing up in total isolation.  Neither of
    those statements would be true in my house.  I have learned from
    experience on this subject, and if my experiences can help prevent
    someone from having the same problem, then I am willing to tell
    them.
    
    On the subject of Felv and FIV testing, I draw blood for those tests
    and perform them at the same time.  We do the Elisa test.  I don't
    test the kittens until they are four months old.
    
    I must be lucky, a box of 100 syringes usually only costs me $11.00.
    And then I have them around in case I need to administer Oxytocin, or
    Epinephrine.
                 
    Jo

    What I've read in this particular note regarding vaccines, killed
    virus, 3-way and 4-way is all quite interesting, particularly since I
    had taken my two foster kittens to separate vets.  One vet believed in
    giving the FeLV right away without testing the other only tested.  As
    it was Buck got the vaccine, Simon tested negative, but hasn't had
    the vaccine.  Now I'm wondering if Simon has been put at any risk.  I'd
    also noticed that though Buck's energy didn't ebb, his appetite did and
    he dropped a few ounces.
    
    I don't have enough time to absorb all the info in notes while at work.  
    Is there a book or paper on all of this?  I've also heard frm several
    people that you can give vaccines yourself.  Does this take a license?
    How can I learn more?
    
    Thanks!
    
    - karen

    Jo -
      No I don't think you're being paranoid.  I've had enough experience
    with the ferals etc to have an idea of how bad it can be.  I just got
    confused about whether the FLV and Rabies were modified live or
    killed vaccines since the former seem to be a problem.  
    
    The kittens are getting their first vaccines (Felovac) this weekend
    at 6 weeks old.  I spoke to Dr. Nielson of Revival, from which I
    got the vaccines, about using the Eclipse-4kp on 9 week old kittens.
    He said its ok provided the kittens are weanned and the shot is given
    sub-Q and not IM.  I"ve got three weeks to think about it, but I
    suspect I'll just go with the Felovac for the second shot and not
    go to Eclipse until 12 weeks.  I don't really want to force them
    to be weanned.  I figure Halie will take care of that when she's
    ready.  By 12 weeks tho, I figure they'll probably be weanned or
    very close to it.
      I'll use my one extra felovac (I ordered 15) on Dundee instead
    of using the Eclipse 4KP.  I think I'm going to end up trashing
    some of the Eclipse 4kp's because I won't use them before they
    expire but I'd rather do that and be safe.
      Nancy DC

    You can ask for extended expiration dates if they haven't been shipped
    yet.  I do that when I am ordering more vaccines to get a price
    break.  That way, they will still be good when you are ready to
    use them.
    
    Or, you can sell them to your friends!  :^)
    
    Jo (who hates to waste money)

    re: .34 - Good idea.  I'll wait until I receive the syringes to go
    with them tho.  I ordered them last week.
    
    If anyone is interested, let me know.  The kittens all got their
    FELOVAC's this past weekend and so did Dundee.  Dundee was the worst
    behaved of the bunch, but I think that had more to do with being
    forced into close proximity with a "stranger" (Cindy) than with the
    shot.  
    
    Giving the shots was VERY easy and no one reacted in any way at all.
    They didn't even sleep more than usual :-)
      Nancy DC