Conference misery::feline_v1

    I dont recall having seen you note in here before so I will warn
    you that this COULD become a prety heated conversation. You will
    get all opinions on this matter and it will also probably get diverted
    down the indoor/outdoor rathole. This topic has been discussed under
    a number of other notes as well.
    
    As for my opinion, well I am in the U.K. where de-clawing is illegal
    unless it is for medical reasons so I dont have the choice, but
    I wouldn't have it done even if I could.
    
    It seems that a de-clawed cat MUST be kept indoors at all times
    as they have no means of defence and cannot whiz up a tree to escape
    from danger, and it is a lot rarer to find indoor only cats in the
    U.K. than in the states.          
    
    

    Hi,
    
    Just a suggestion:  the following notes have tons of information
                        opinions, and suggestions, not to mention
                        heated feelings regarding the declawing
                        issue.  You will find that many feliners
                        have voiced their opinions.
    
    38
    74
    223
    778
    821
    1909
    2263
    2507
    2992
    3366
    
             Happy Reading !!!
    
    E.T.

    As mentioned previously, folks in this file have *very* strong feelings
    on this topic. If, after reading all of the notes that E.T. mentioned
    you still have questions, by all means feel free to ask. However, I am
    going to take this opportunity to remind the community to observe
    proper noting etiquette and abide by conference policies if replying on
    this topic.

    Deb
    FELINE co-moderator 

    P.S. Thank to those that made the preceding replies for the tone and
         style that you used. 

    
    
    	OK I'll jump in a give my .02 worth.
    
    	I just had my latest 3 month old female Siamese "Ashley" declawed.
    	She's the first cat I ever had declawed and I've owned lots over
    	the years.  She is an indoor only cat.  The Vet said to bring her
    	in "the younger the better".  Well I brought her in on a Tuesday
    	morning and they operated that day.  I called later and was told
    	all went well.  I picked her up Thursday morning.  When I brought
    	her home and put the crate on the floor, out she comes RUNNING!
    
    	She never limped or fussed in anyway.  She was just as active as
    	before and there is not after effects as far as I see.  She jumps
    	on everything and plays the way she always did.  She still TRIES
    	to sharpen her front claws on the wicker chair, but now I just
    	smile and let her be.  We used recycle newspaper pellets for
    	kitty litter that we bought at the Pet Store for two weeks and
    	now she is back to her regular litter.
    
    	She was abit swollen at first in the toes and they shaved her feet so she
    	looked even odder, but honest, she has had no ill effects at all.
    
    	I like many felt it was inhumane and would NEVER do it to my cats.
    	Well guess what - I changed my mind.  The other Simanese I
    	adopted was 16 months old and already declawed by previous owner.
    	She was fine and that also made me go ahead with my decision.  I
    	read alot of the previous notes in this file on the subject, and
    	that made my own decision.
    
    	Good luck,
    
    	-Dee
    
    	
    	
    	She can do what she wants and I don't worry about the antique
    	furniture, drapes etc being ruined.  
    	

    For me, the decision has never been based on how well the cat would
    or would not come out of surgery.  When I think of the effects,
    I don't think about the phsysical effects the day after surgery.
    I think about it in terms of what the cat is losing, and whether
    I would want to give that up myself.  The answer for me was No.
    
    Jo
    

    Personally I'm against declawing except for medical reasons or
    as a last resort.   I've never found it necessary to declaw any
    of my cats.   Also having had a declawed cat living with a bunch
    that weren't declawed, I know that if one is declawed then it 
    doesn't necessarily follow that the others must be as well.
    
    In fact, I will require of anyone who acquires a Putiput scottish fold
    that they agree not to declaw without my permission.
    
    Having said all that I have also observed that some cats seem to
    suffer no trauma at all and others have a tough time.  I think it
    has alot to do with the skill of the vet and the method used.
    Therefore, my advice to you, if you decide to declaw your cat, is
    to get recommendations of vets from folks in this file who have had
    their cats declawed and not had them suffer any trauma from it.
    
    Good Luck and welcome
      Nancy DC

I live with all declawed cats (4), 1 my roommate had declawed before I met her,
2 I rescued and placed with a women as kittens - and got back at 7 months
of age or so, declawed but not neutered, and Hannah, which I had declawed.

I chose declawing for Hannah because she was extremely active and fiesty,
and she injured the eye of Marge's older cat, Tabby...it was determined that
Hannah needed to be "equalized" with the rest of the household so they
could hold their own with her.  I do not regret the decision, nor do I
feel that Hannah does.  She is indoor-only, as all my cats are and ever
will be....another heated issue...I choose to keep mine indoors and healthy.

Sam and Nick, the 2 declawed by their adopting "mom", had very bad
declawing surgery - a hack job in my opinion - and they are having
some problems with arthritis.  This can happen when the final toe joint is
amputated, rather than just the claw removed.  If the surgery is cheap,
I would hunt for another vet.  You do not want the toe joint amputated, just
the claw removed - it is surgery and it doesn't come cheap.

I would not recommend the surgery if:

	1)  You EVER intend to allow your cat free roaming privileges.

	2)  You can train your cat to use a scratching post and leave
	    your furniture alone.  This CAN BE VERY DIFFICULT FOR A
	    WORKING PERSON AND NOONE HAS THE RIGHT TO CRITICIZE YOU
	    IF YOU AREN'T SUCCESSFUL.  What is required is behavior
	    modification - and that can be impossible if you have
	    no way to keep the cat from scratching stuff while u are
	    not around to control it.

	3)  You have small children that live with the cat.  Yes, a
	    cat with claws can scratch a child - and this is necessary
	    if the child is HURTING the cat - many children do not
	    understand that cats and kittens can be damaged by tight
	    squeezes and such.  I feel it is best to leave the cat
	    with the weapons necessary to defend itself.  You may
	    end up with a crying child, but the child can be treated
	    for scratchs and will learn to NOT DO THAT AGAIN...the
	    cat can end up with internal injuries if it cannot defend
	    itself.

If you feel it is mandatory that you declaw to make your life with your
cat happier and healthier, find a reputable vet -one who will explain 
what the extraction process is and not mutilate the paws - and get 
the declawing done.  It is infinitly better the cat live indoors-only, 
with a loving family, and declawed... 

rather than having it rejected and sent to an early, unnecessary death
at an overcrowded shelter.

>  It is infinitly better the cat live indoors-only, 
>with a loving family, and declawed... 

	My cats have the choice of indoors/outdoors, as I have a cat-flap.

	They love the outdoors, and only come inside to feed, and sometimes
	to sleep.

	If they preferred it indoors, then they would stay inside.

	When it's really cold outside, they'll come in and play, climbing the
	scratching post, they wouldn't be able to do this if they were declawed.
	

	Although it's not a nice thing to think about, if you ever had to to
	part with the cat, how easy would it be to place a declawed cat, as
	opposed it a cat with claws.

	Here in the UK it would definately be last on the list, it may be 
	different in your area.

	Heather

       I also agree that this is a very emotional issue, and I personally
    believe it should be only a last resort type of thing... I have two
    males who are de-clawed, and these are the reasons:
    
      (1)Smokey, a gray male, was "obtained" by someone when he was 8 weeks
    old to be a "mouser" in a barn. This was in November, in New England,
    and he got cold one night and climbed up into the engine compartment of
    an automobile. Next morning the erson started the car up, and he got
    caught in the fanbelt...the trauma was severe, requiring his left front
    leg to be amputated. With only one front leg, if he tried to climb, he
    would get "hung-up", and become immobilized...de-clawing the other leg
    prevents this from happening.
    
      (2)Luke-the Drifter, a stray who was terorizing the neighborhood's
    cat population to survive, was hit by a car, dislocated his hip, broke
    his sternum, and was very sick and hurting when we rescued him. As an
    agressive animal, and with a de-clawed three-legged cat and three very
    sedate and non-agressive females, we elected to de-claw and neuter him
    and introduce him into the "inside" life. THis has worked out very
    well, except for one day about 5 days after he came home when he
    decided to tey to catch a bug on the other side of the screen on a
    window, which resulted in a lot of blood when he broke open one of the
    wounds that was only partially healed. We were able to stop this
    without much trouble, and Luke has adapted very well to his new life
    and seems to be very grateful to be well fed, well loved and with three
    girl-friends and a buddy to live with...
    
      THis isn't a cut-and-dried issue, and each instance has it's own
    merits/reasons, and I for one believe that it should be a matter of
    conscience and need..
    
    JMcD

    Thanks for all your information.  I have read the other notes and they
    were very informative.
    
    I will still have to do some thinking about it.
    
    Thanks
    

    	I think I'm on record in numerous topics as to being somewhat
    opposed to declawing.  Good luck in your decision.
    
    	Bob McQ
    

    It might be interesting for you to consider having a more powerful
    being determine that you do not "need" your finger and toe nails,
    and therefore, they operate on you, and you wake-up one day without
    them and you're wondering why you're limping and you can't grab
    anything without pain. 
    
    You may want to read Pete Singer's book, Animal Liberation, wherein
    he discusses the concept of "speciesism".

    Really, what problem are you trying to solve by operating on the
    cat anyway? The cat's ... or yours?
    
    

    
    I wish this isue were only that simple.  I've worked at animal
    hospitals and shelters and I can't tell you haw many people will turn
    in a cat because it is ruining the furniture.  You can't tell these
    people that a little training goes a long way.  They can not be
    bothered.  They would rather declaw than take the time to train, or
    worse they turn thier animals into a shelter to be "adopted".  (Most of
    us know what happens to most adult cats that are released for adoption
    - they are killed.)
    
    I'm not sure which is the "worse crime" taking an animals claws away,
    so that it can keep it's home, or leaving it intact when it is put down
    at the local animal shelter.....
    
    Feline thoughtful,
    
    Sue & Panther & Spot
    

if a person is home all the time, a cat can be easily trained...it is called
bahavior modification.  If you read up on the subject you find that it is
only guarenteed to work if the training can be continuous - EVERY TIME THE
UNDESIRABLE BEHAVIOR OCCURS IT MUST BE CORRECTED.  Some cats will learn
to scratch in one or two areas only, and therefore they can be trained to
use a scratching post by simply placing the post(s) in the area in which the
cat scratches.  Some cats have a high need to scent mark (the OTHER
thing a cat is doing when "scratching" furniture - there are scent glands
in the pads of the paws) and they will scratch many places.  If the cat
owner works then the problem becomes insurmountable.  I have two cats that
only use one spot in the house...both could have easily been trained to
use a cat post by simply placing the post where they scratch.  Their owner
at the time decided to have them declawed - I don't know the other reasons
she may have had for this and I do not criticize the decision.  I have one
cat that "scratches" any piece of furniture on which I leave my scent 
thereby claiming me as her person.  I have no idea how I would have trained 
her to not destroy the house - I would have had to cage her 10 - 12 hours 
a day and all night in order to prevent the behavior when I was not 
alert or around to correct it.  Other reasons forced us to have Hannah
de-clawed - a decision my vet agreed with due to our circumstances, but
DO NOT DOUBT THIS: I would have declawed Hannah for damaging
my roommate's furniture rather than cage her all the time OR send her to 
the shelter to be killed.

Just to keep our perspective here.....Hannah DID NOT LIMP when she came 
home from vet after the operation.  She was running and jumping around
just as she always has.  She STILL gets to all the places she wants to get.
She STILL takes swipes at the other cats and me when she is angry, and
she STILL "SCRATCHES" FURNITURE.  I doubt whether she even knows she 
doesn't have the claws.  She is an indoor-only cat and she is alive and
happy.  I have a competent vet who removed ONLY the claws, not any of
the toe.  IT IS A SURGERY i HAVE UNDERGONE MYSELF TO HAVE A SEVERLY
DAMAGED TOENAIL REMOVED.  The only difference between Hannah's and my
surgery was that Hannah's feet have fur on them.  My little toe has
grown back a "hard" cover over the delicate surface of the nail bed,
as Hannah's toes have grown a hard cover over the surface of the claw
bed.  Her toes look much better than mine because she has pretty fur
over them.  I had a slightly sore toe for a few days.  Period.  No
trauma, no life-long feelings of inadequacy....it simply isn't that
dramatic.

I agree that the surgery can be botched by idiots....toe joints can be
removed.  That is unacceptable and horrible.  It can be avoided if the
cat owner asks the vet how the surgery will be performed and refuses
to allow an incompetent jerk to do this to their cat.  It costs more to
get the right kind of surgery done.  Don't look for bargains if it
becomes necessary to get the surgery done.

No surgery should be performed unless it is necessary.  That goes without
saying.  I believe it is A BETTER OPTION to remove the front claws than
to kill the animal.  I have a right to this belief.  Others have a right
to the belief that it isn't.  Noone has the right to call anyone names,
insult anyone, or harass anyone over this.  This is not an issue where
your decision is going to affect your neighbors. It is, therefore,
your decision alone.

    
    RE.13
    
    I may not have expressed myself very well when I wrote that note. 
    Hadn't finished my first cup of coffee yet :-}.
    
    The point that I was clumsily trying to make Re.12 was that I would
    like to see everyone have their options open on the declawing issue.  I
    would rather see a cat declawed and have happy owners, (hence happy
    cat) than see a cat distroyed because it was clawing the furniture.
    
    It is a personal decision, that should be made on a case by case basis. 
    We all know that there are no two cats alike, nor owners either.  And
    thank heaven for that, I love the diversity of personalies in both
    animals and people.  Some cats can be trained, some can't.  Some owners
    can train, some can't (for what ever reason.)
    
    In my clumsy way I was trying to point out to .12 that this issue is
    not so black and white as he/she had thought.  My appoligies if my
    thoughts were not clear.
    
    Feline Thoughtful Still,
    
    Sue & Panther & Spot
        
    
    

    re: .13 - That is exactly why I have modified my position on declawing.
    I am personally against doing it unless the only option is to take the
    cat to a shelter or have it put down.  And in that case I highly 
    recommend that you get references from other folks who have had the
    procedure performmed on their cats with a minimum of trauma.
    
    This is one of many issues about which my beliefs have been broadened
    by exposure to other folks' opinions.
      Nancy DC