Conference misery::feline_v1

    
       I guess short of fencing your yard, there are a few other choices,
    seems it is a common problem.  What worked for me once with a dog
    situation was to scoop the deposits and re-deposit them on the dog
    owner's front step.  This worked very well, I only had to do it twice,
    and the dog never came over to MY step to poop again.  I don't know
    what kind of relationship you have with the neighbors, but doing this
    did not affect my relationship with the neighbors, luckily.
       You could spray the area with cat repellent.
       If the cats are let out at regular times,  maybe be ready with the
       hose one day.  Cats don't forget where they got squirted with water.
       Divert the cats attention with catnap at the neighbors border far
       away from the house.
    
             Those are some quick thoughts.....good luck,  Denise

    I'm really sorry to hear about the Cardinal.
    
    I suspect that the cats are not neutered and this is the source
    of the awful smell when they spray.  Also, I actually
    don't think that bells would help, as one of my neighbors' cats is
    belled and still catches a number of birds.
    
    I have two  suggestions: (1) I don't think you will have much luck with
    this, but speak to your neighbors about having the cats altered.  There
    is no reason why you should have to live with that odor. 
    (2) Change
    your birdfeeders so that they are cat-proof (put them on poles,
    keep them away from branches and fences that the cats can use to hide
    under or jump from) (3) Being very careful not to hurt the cats, try
    the spraying with water business.                    
    
    Another side of why this is so unfortunate a situation is that your 
    neighbors are probably not taking good care of the cats.  Everybody
    loses in this situation, except the rotten neighbors.
    

If you live in a residential area, are you in a town?  If so, perhaps
you can report the neighbor's cats as a nuisance and get an animal
control officer involved?  It sounds like you need mediation from
a third party who will act as an advocate for your situation.  Your 
relationship with the neighbor is probably not too good, as it is, 
and a mediator might help improve it.  Asking for mediation will
also let your neighbor know how much this bothers you - she may
not have understood that you and your mother are really upset about
it.

Another option, ask your neighbor to come over and smell the foundation
of the house, explain in a calm voice that this is not tolerable for
you, and ask her to work WITH you to find a solution to the problem.
Focus on the smell, not the birds (she is obviously not considerate
enough to care about your desires concerning the birds, so don't 
emphasize the bird issue).  Explain that the smell is making your
home uninhabitable and you need a solution to the problem - talk to
the local humane society about the problem and have some brochures
about low-cost spaying/neutering and any other information you can
get with you when you talk to her.  DON'T get into an argument with 
her.  If she attempts to start one, back off.  Then call the local
animal control officer and ask what can be done about a "nuisance"
situation.  In most communities, there are laws against people
allowing their animals to become a nuisance for their neighbors.
Generally, people are warned and then they are fined if the issue
isn't resolved.

If you don't get this taken care of, other cats will be drawn to the
smell and you will have a bigger problem, so it is appropriate to
pursue a solution.

    I have two cats which are outdoor/indoor cats.

    I have been thinking about how I would react if my neighbours complained
    about my cats.

    If my neighbours complaining about them catching birds then I would put
    my point of view, and agree to differ, I would not try to stop them doing 
    this.

    If they complained about them spraying and it being a nuisance ( which they 
    don't, but as an example) I would be concerned, and I would want to ensure
    they didn't continue - without shutting them indoors.

    So, I would not mind them squirting the cats with water - it wouldn't harm 
    them, they wouldn't have to do this more than a couple of times before they 
    got the message.
 
    I would buy them cat repellant powder, to encourage the cats to avoid the 
    area.

    I would try to tempt the cats to stay in the garden.

    I would also listen to any ideas the neighbours had, that didn't mean I had 
    to keep them shut in anywhere - indoors, or a run.

    Any inference that I did not look after my cats well, would stop me in my 
    tracks and I would stop trying so hard to help.

    If you can tackle it from this angle, then I hope you can come to 
    a solution that is fine for both of you and the cats.

    Good Luck

    Heather   

    
    
    Re:  .1 Fencing
    
    Fencing is not going to deter most cats.  So if you were considering
    that, don't waste your money.  (At least no if the sole reason for the
    fence is to keep the cats out.)
    
    My yard is fenced and my neighbors cats just climb or jump over.  I
    have 4 foot high chain link on 2 sides and 6 foot high stockade on the
    other two.
    
    Suggestion, if you have a neighbor with a big dog, collect some of the
    dog droppings and deposit them in the areas that the cats have chosen
    for a litter box and you won't see them using it again!  (Strange but
    true!)
    
    Hope it helps, (even though the cure sounds worse than the disease!)
    
    Feline hopeful that your situation improves.
    
    Sue & Panther & Spot
    

    As an owner of indoor/ outdoor cats ... we deliberately keep a well
    dug patch of earth in our own garden, which the cats like to use
    as a litter tray, and so they are less tempted to use other people's
    gardens.  Perhaps your neighbour could do this?  However, it does
    sound as if the cats are not neutered, and I do not know any way
    of stopping full toms from spraying wherever takes their fancy!
    
    In general, I agree with .4 - that is pretty much how I would react
    if someone criticised my cats (actually, my problem is the opposite
    - Pandora visits several neighbours for lunch, and I would like
    to discourage them tactfully from feeding her!  Oliver is much too
    shy to visit anyone).
    
    Helen.
    

    Thanks for the replies.  I quess this is what creates bad feelings
    between neighbors.  Why is it that animals always perfer someone elses
    house to do their business on??  
    
    A few years ago we had a man deliver our daily paper on a ten speed and
    he would bring along his german shepard wich ran beside him.  Every day
    without fail when he delivered our paper he marked all our bushes and
    blessed us with a big plop on our lawn.
    
    My dad canceled the paper he could stand it anymore.
    
    Don't people who own animals like this feel guilty/responsible??  I 
    mean an accident is one thing that can be overlooked, but repeatedly
    being careless and allowing your pets to inflect themselves on
    others really steams me ....sizzle sizzle ...
    
    My dad has since put moth balls down along the foundation to deter
    them.  I don't know what smell is worse.
    
    I'll look into the cat repellent powder that sounds like the best idea
    yet?
    
    I know what you mean by a bell not working. Knew a Simese cat that
    would actually hold the bell still with one front paw while she
    continued to stalk her prey...  Their very clever.
    
    I actually feel bad about feeding the birds at all now.  Its like we're
    coaxing them to their death......
    
    Didn't mean to be a mysterious stranger by not signing my original
    note.
    
    Thanks for the helpful info...
    
    Valerie

    After reading my last reply...
    
    Just wanted to clarify the paper delivery story.  It was the dog not the
    man who left us presents.  That did sound kinda of strange.  I can
    imagine you all trying to picutre that in your minds and thinking... 
    "Boy, some folks do have really strange neighbors...."  (Tee Hee)
    
    Valerie

    I have the same problems with the neighbor's cats.  One is a male and
    is definitely "whole".  They also are *always* after our birds, two of
    which are Cardinals.  Our flower beds around the house are used daily
    by these cats.  The neighbor has a garden, but covers the bottom with
    plastic, hence the cats come over to our house to do their job.
    
    As far as the birds, it is natural instinct and if it not the
    neighbor's cats that come over, it will be someone else's cats as cats
    territories are very large.  We fixed this the best we could by putting
    the bird feeders up high on poles and we only feed them in the dead of
    Winter as birds will eat bugs in the Spring/Summer/Fall and can pretty
    much find food on the ground.
    
    But, as far as them using our flower beds as a litter box, we have not
    solved this yet.  I have been looking into this situation as last year
    I tried the hose but, since I work most of the time, it was not
    effective.  This year I am putting moth balls in dixie cups,
    distributing them around the area they use, and am hoping for the best. 
    Cat defication SMELLS horribly, so I know what you are going thru.  Not
    to mention that it is killing alot of our perinnals (sp?) and that is
    what is making me mad.  I am told that once they stop using my flower
    bed, chances are they will not come back.
    
    I will let you know how the mothballs work.  But, when I get ticked
    off and am talking with my husband while we are outside cleaning up
    this shit, I make sure the neighbhors hear me bitch loud and clear.  I
    know the laws protect cats as far as roaming, so there is not much you
    can do about it, but that will not stop me from voicing how
    disappointed I am that they can take such good care of *their* garden
    which differs their cats to *our* garden.
    
    Good Luck!
    
    Anna
    

Our town (Wilton, NH) managed to make the front page of the Nashua Telegraph
with one man's solution to a problem with his neighbors' cats  --  he's taken
to shooting them!  We're talking 30 or more cats here, not just one or two
visitors.  They are ruining his children's sandbox, as well as a pile of sand
he was using for some construction; I guess there were other problems but those
were the two that stuck in my mind.  He tried discussing the problem with the 
owners, and they just didn't see any way they could change the cats' behavior;
making them indoor-only wasn't an option in their minds, and we all know that 
"cats are born to roam".

The police investigated, and have since decided (I think) that he is within
his rights and they aren't going to prosecute.  Guess cats aren't worth much in
the eyes of the law!

I'm not advocating such a drastic solution, makes me sick to think about it
actually.  But the owners share responsiblity here, they are the ones who are
letting their opionion on cat behavior ruin someone else's property and 
enjoyment of their own yard -- the unfortunate thing is that the cats are
paying the ultimate price.

I'm firmly on the side of indoor-only, but I do respect the rights of others
not to share that opinion; I would never assume that people who have outdoor
cats don't love them and care for them, and I'm willing to agree to disagree
on the indoor/outdoor question.  But that doesn't give them or the cats the 
right to invade my property -- isn't there a quote to the effect that "your
freedom to swing your arm ends at my nose"?   When your choice interferes with
MY rights, then you've gone too far.

Not an easy problem to resolve, I wish you luck!


Jan  who_has_11_indoor_only_cats_and_lots_of_fur_on_everything

	Personally, I get offended (mildly) by every entry like this and it's 
	replies because everyone seems to *assume* the owner-in-question 
	does not properly care or assume responsibility for their cat.  
        We've (feliners) have had the discussions/debates, and agree to 
    	disagree, however I still get the same implications.  If a neighbor 
    	was *TELL* me I was neglecting my cat, or I *wasn't* taking full
    	responsibility for her,  or *my* cat was responsible for X,Y,and Z, 
    	I would get upset and tell them where to go.  
	
	If a neighbor mentioned, tactfully, that they saw my cat digging in 
	their garden, I would suggest spraying her w/ the hose as a deterrent - 
	and getting back to me for an update.  If that didn't work (which I'm 
	certain it would, if implemented properly) I would be motivated to try 
	another alternative for the safety of my cat.  I am not sure what it 
	would be, and don't plan on worrying about it because there doesn't
	seem to be any problems (Believe me, I WOULD know in this neighborhood.
	These people complained about me parking my trailer in my yard- claiming
	it takes away from the esthetic value of the entire neighborhood)


	I've learned that everybody thinks their way is the right way, and 
	everyone else is wrong - regardless of the situation.  And, no one
	likes to be told they are wrong.  If I have a difference of opinion
	with a person, I usually try to talk it over w/ my boyfriend , first, 
	and then try a mock conversation.  My intentions are always good, 
	however I have a difficult time expressing myself in certain situations 
	- and I can easily come across negatively.  If you would like to use 
	me as a sounding board for a mock conversation, contact me off line.

	Thoughts on the immediate problems:

	It sounds to me as if your neighbors cats may not be neutered.
	You may not be able to do much about this fact, except giving
	them some information on the benefits of neutering (and possibly
	offering to pay for half).  But the cats may be drawn to the smell
	of your mom's foundation as well.  Maybe using a product like natures
	Miracle - it breaks down the urine, or Lime (this does a great job
	for odors in the barn) will defer further visits.  Please don't use
    	mothballs, they are poisionous (or if you do, put them in a cat
    	proof/child proof container which would allow the scent to come out
    	but not allow contact w/ the mb).

	You didn't mention if your mom's cat was spayed?  

	You might try cat proofing your bird feeders as well.  I put mine on a
	taut cable strung across 2 trees (up high enough to just pour seeds in).
	I have several feeders up there and get a variety of birds.  Nippa
	gets close, but she never catches them.  This solution also keeps
	squirrels from wasting the entire contents of the feeder @ one sitting.
	

    	Good Luck, this is a tough one.  I only hope, if I were to have
    	this problem, that the neighbor is as considerate as you.
    
    	Michele		
    

>>>>>BUT THAT DOESN'T GIVE THEM OR THE CATS THE 
>>>>>RIGHT TO INVADE MY PROPERTY -- ISN'T THERE A QUOTE TO THE EFFECT THAT "YOUR
>>>>>FREEDOM TO SWING YOUR ARM ENDS AT MY NOSE"?

Exactly.  This is the REAL issue here.  This isn't a question of what a cat's
normal behavior pattern is - nor is it a question of whether it is "healthy"
or "unhealthy" for the cat to be allowed the "freedom" to roam.  It is
an issue of respect for the rights of the people around us.  It is a 
question of whether the person (you and me) who is responsible for 
bringing the cat into the environment is also a  RESPONSIBLE NEIGHBOR.  In
a larger sense, it is becoming (in the USA) a question of whether other
people will be allowed the luxury of even HAVING a cat as a pet.
In many cities and towns in the USA, the problems cat cause are becoming
community issues - AND CAT OWNERS ARE FINDING FEWER AND FEWER PLACES WHERE
THEY ARE WELCOME BECAUSE of the prevailing attitude held by many cat owners
that their cats have a RIGHT to roam, uncontrolled.

In many towns, leash laws for cats are under consideration, or already
on the books.  The eventual result may well be that most of us will
not be ABLE to have cats -  because we cannot find anyplace to live
that will ALLOW cats. Period.

If you talk to any animal control officer, member of the humane society,
or any group concerned with retaining or restoring our natural areas,
you will find that there are also very real environmental issues - such
as the threatened extinction of birds and animals that our "pets"
hunt, voraciously.  You can also get an ear full concerning the HEALTH
issues surrounding the cats' use of garden, sandbox, and play areas as
their sandbox from community health care workers.  These "deposits" are 
a prime breeding place for some very nasty parasites - to which humans, 
dogs, and cats are all vulnerable.  There are just too many cats running
free in, and around, cities and towns.  If we, the pet owners, do not
begin to take control of this situation, we may find that others, without
our love of these animals, take control instead.

If we live in communities, we must consider the impact our choices have
on our neighbors.  Every one should have the right to live WITH cats
if they choose...but, everyone should ALSO have the right to live WITHOUT
cats, and WITH birds or other creatures.  We cat owners MUST find a
way to protect these rights - or risk losing some very precious privileges
of our own.

    Let me make it clear why I view the neighbors as not taking proper
    care of their cats:
    
    1.  The cats aren't altered, thus they have a higher chance of getting 
    lost when they roam, and of contributing to pet overpopulation.
    
    2.  By allowing their cats to be nuisances in the neighborhood
    they are running the real chance that some neighbor will take things
    into their own hands and harm the cats.
    

    dian...
    
    very eloquently put.  there's nothing i could add, except to agree that
    *i* would rather be in control of the situation, rather than let it be 
    the choice of someone with a less agreeable attitude towards cats.
    
    diane & the dynamic duo
    

    My thoughts are very similar, if not identical, to Michele's.  As
    an owner of 2 indoor/outdoor cats, I would be very receptive to
    working out a solution to a neighbor's problem that involved my
    cats.  If asked to do so rudely, my first reaction would probably
    be one of defense and my words equally as adverse.  However, once
    the obscenities (if any) subsided, I would definitely be amenable
    to combatting the behavior in question.  Not only do I want to refrain
    from making enemies with my neighbors, I also want to ensure the
    safety of my cats on all counts.  I don't relish the thought of
    ever making T.K. and Nikki strictly indoor cats but if a neighbor
    was making death threats on their lives, I would do it.
    
    I raise the same question as Michele:  Is your mother's cat spayed?
    And even if the neighbors cats are neutered they can still mark
    territory.  My parents neutered cat sprays occassionally; luckily
    it is on their house and not the neighbors.  And as far as the birds
    are concerned, my bird feeder set up is similar to Michele's; out
    of reach of the cats.  We haven't had any problems in the 2 years
    we've lived there.  I do agree that a spray with the hose is a great
    detterent -- most cats do not like to get wet and will get the hint
    in a very short time.
    
    I think the most difficult aspect of your mother's dilemma is the
    lack of cooperation from her neighbor.  Her choices as they stand
    now are to (1) file a nuisance complaint with the appropriate agency
    or (2) implement some of the suggestions mentioned here and hope
    that they work.
    
    Good luck whatever you/she decides.
    
    
    --Roberta
    
    

    I guess the part I'm having a hard time dealing with here, is why
    should the person have to do anything to stop your cat from coming in
    their yard.  
    
    I mean, it's not my fault your cat comes in my yard, so why should I
    have to wait with the hose handy, purchase (read that spend my hard
    earned $) boundry sprays or powders, moth balls, etc.  
    
    I'm dealing with this now, and I'm mad as hell!  No, my cats aren't 
    spayed, but they also don't bother anyone else.  So, just because my
    cats aren't spayed, is that an excuse for someone elses free roaming
    male to spray MY house!  I've been spending a fortune lately to try to
    keep these cats away from my house, besides the smell, who knows what
    else they're carrying!  
    
    I guess the bottom line is that if your cat is causing me a problem, I
    don't think I should have to do anything to solve it, since I didn't
    create the problem.  It makes me even madder when someone suggests that
    I spend my $ buying products to keep someone elses cat away from my
    property.
    
    just my .02...
    cin
    

    Cin, if your female cats are in heat, they are going to attract toms.
    I don't think you can say this is exclusively the fault of the toms'
    owners.  
    

    My moms just got her kitty last week, she's 11 weeks old her first and
    only kitty she has.  This problem has been going on for quite some time
    now.  
    
    The old saying is true "You catch more flies with honey then you do
    with vinigar."
    
    I agree to approach the problem very calmly and non threatening, which
    mom did, our neighbor was very nice herself, but in full disagreement
    with mom's point of view. I quess we'll just keep trying.
    
    But as stated in previous note.  If people continue to let cats roam
    knowing that they are distrubing their neighbors and continue to do
    nothing about it, they are in a way forcing people to take matters into
    their own hands to settle the issue once and for all, and many
    people like the man in Wilton NH, would not think twice about 
    shooting, posioning or  what ever to solve the problem.
    
    Valerie
    How much better if the loving cat owner solved the problem by taking
    responsibility for their pet.  They would actually be a protection for
    them.

    It is if their cats are unneutered and being allowed to roam free. 
    It's rare that neutered toms spray, and when they do, they don't have
    the odor that "whole" toms do.  
    
    I wouldn't even complain about the spraying, it's the smell....I think
    it's terrible that the outside of my house smells more like cats than
    the inside!   And I have 3 "whole" males!   oops, make that 2 now!
    
    
    
    
    

    re:17
    
    I beg to differ!  What if cats are in heat, cats that are
    indoor exclusively.  My opinion is that firstly, the toms
    should be shims, and should not be prowling other folks
    yards or spraying other property.
    
    The last Tom that sprayed my windows, is now a non-Tom, and
    lives exclusively indoors - MY HOUSE.  His name is Charlie (Chow Lee)
    and his previous owner think he ran away, and really don't even care.
    He messed up my screens so badly, it too me a whole summer of scrubbing
    to clean them up!
    
    I guess my $ .0002 cents worth would be to say that if you own an
    animal, it's YOUR responsiblity to see that the animal doesn't cause
    bother or discomfort to anyone else or anyone else's property.  If
    you do not wish to spay or neuter, that's your business, but I don't
    want to have to clean up after your decision. 
    
    Just my opinion.
    
    E.T.

    Hmmmmmmmm, E.T. brings up an interesting point.  When I was growing
    up, my mom used to spay/neuter the neighbor's cats without them
    even giving their consent!  She would sit down at the kitchen table
    and write letters to Friends of Animals asking for certificates.
    No, it was not her problem nor did she create it.  She just got
    sick of seeing the litters of kittens being born every spring, and
    the toms coming across the street to her house and picking fights
    with her spayed/neutered cats.  The neighbors never even knew what
    she was doing, let alone care!
    
    Anyway, I understand the logic of what Cin is trying to point out.
    Unfortunately, life ain't that easy, and there are times when we are
    going to either have to live with things the way they are or find
    a way to fix them ourselves.  Yes it is frustrating but there are
    always going to be people we can't get through to no matter how
    hard we try.  I agree that we shouldn't have to spend our hard earned
    money solving problems that someone else created.  It is sad that
    in the end (as in the Wilton case), it is the innocent cats who
    suffer.
    
    

    
    my .04 cents worth..........
    
    	Interesting replies....some I agree with and some I feel are off
    base.  Why would the owner of the cats who are roaming feel inposed
    upon by someone telling them that their cat is causing problems.  Their
    cats is roaming and dirting the neighbors property whether it be by using
    it as a litter box or by spraying the foundation walls.  Put yourself
    in the place of the person who keeps a nice yard or a nice car or
    whatever - they take pains to keep things up - and then someone else
    lets their cat mess it up.  Not fair folks.  Would you say something
    if it was someone's kid throwing garbage in your yard or trashing it -
    you bet you would.  Well the homeowner who's property is being messed
    up has every right to say something and the owner of the cats who
    are roaming should listen.  
    
    	There are two  issues here - treating people's property as you
    would hope they would treat yours, and being responsible for your
    pets when someone talks to you about their not so good habits.  Don't
    be so defensive - listen first then react.  These cats are causing
    problems and the owner of the roaming cats ARE RESPONSIBLE.  No good
    will come of this problem, if the owner of the roaming cats do not
    take some steps in correcting the problems.  Alot of heartache could
    be avoided if people would listen and then try to solve the problems
    instead of bickering and defending their "furry kids rights".
                                                      

      I know I should stay out of this..but what the H......
    
      I have 13 animals...all under control....and even though it's a
    "given" that now and then there will be a "deposit" of some sort left,
    there is NO odor in my house. There is ALSO no odor OUTSIDE my house
    from my kids...nor are ANY of my animals allowed to bother the
    neighbors or neighborhood in ANY way. I ACCEPT the responsibility for
    may actions...and those of the animals I own who do not have intellects
    and wills as humans do.
    
      One point seems to be lost in this discussion: The BIRDS are here
    NATURALLY! Somebody with a LOT more clout than any human PUT them here.
    Sure, there are many NATURAL predators fo birds, but domestic cats ARE
    NOT natural bird predators...they have been introduced to the
    environment by HUMANS, and they should be controlled by those who put
    them into the environment unnaturally. Natural predators LIVE in the
    environment..they don't simply kill there and then hide in some sort of
    "safe harbor" like the domestic cat does. I find it really ludicrous to
    hear these statements like "My poopser WANTS to go out..." Sure...and
    she WANTS to have 19 kittens every time she comes into heat...but that
    doesn't mean that the owner has to LET her...no more than the owner has
    to allow her to roam in a killing frenzy all over the neighborhood. In
    a previous not I presented statements taken from The National Audubon
    Society relative to the massive killing of birds by un-controlled
    domestic cats...and was "pooh-poohed" without a SHRED of refutable
    evidence... It IS a big problem...and it's literally destroyed some
    bird populations in the southern Pacific Islands. A case in point is a
    large, flightless Parrot who is on the verge of total extinction due to
    the irresponsible actions of humans...once this bird is gone, there ARE
    no more..and WHO are WE to decide what species of animal/bird/insect is
    to live or die. 
    
      Actions such as those described by the basenoter are EXACTLY what
    causes the ludicrous situation that is presently convulsing an entire
    town somewhere in Ohio or Illinois(Don't remember which..watch the
    newsmagazines tonite...) where there is now a LEASH-LAW for CATS!!
      I can see this coming into force in other areas of the country if
    people don't get their acts together.....
    
    JM 
      
                   
    

    This really has nothing directly to do with the cat issue, but reading
    these notes reminded me of something that happened to me when I
    was a child and has colored all my views of animals since.
    
    One winter day a friend of mine and I were playing in a snowbank
    at the end of our driveway.  A dog came along - about beagle size -
    and we started teasing it.  Well, the dog bit me and I ran into the
    house crying.  My mother asked me what happened and I told her.  Well
    she didn't run off to whoever owned the dog and tell them they had
    a viscious dog.  She just said "Serves you right!  Don't tease
    animals."
      
    Sure taught me a lesson........
      Nancy DC

    Michele asked me what I was trying to get across with this note.
    I think I'd better give it a bit of thought.  I'm not saying here
    that the dog's owner had a right to let the dog run or anything
    like that.  I was just impressed with my mother's reaction.  She
    respected the dog's "feelings" and reactions.  She basically said
    that the dog was justified in his reactions and that I had to take
    responsibility for my actions.  She taught me to respect the feelings
    and the rights of another living being - even if that being happened
    to be four footed.  
    
    Like I said, it really doesn't have alot to do with the original
    topic other than it may come under the heading of "Good neighbors"
    and knowing when to hold the neighbors responsible.  I was impressed
    because alot of other people would have stormed off and yelled at
    the neighbor.
      Just an example of human associative memory I guess.  
      Nancy "glad its Friday" DC

    re: 24
    
    Gee Nancy, I thought it was directly related to the base note.
    Funny, my mother used to say the same thing to me if I was
    teasing the dog or the cat and they retaliated or reacted
    in a negative way that upset me as a child.  It taught me
    a lesson also.  Treat animals the way you would like to be
    treated yourself.  
    
    E.T.

    re:23
    
    Way to go JM.  I agree.  Thank you for taking the time to write
    it all out.
    
    The keyword is RESPONSIBILITY.  Many folks ask me why I don't
    let my 19 cats out (folks say that cats WANT to go out).  My
    response usually is that if you have a 2-year old child that
    WANTS to touch a hot stove, and doesn't know any better or
    what's good for them, do you let them touch the stove or do
    you exercise your knowledge and responsibility and prevent
    the child (or cat) from hurting themselves?
    
    My opinion is that after seeing so many road kills (all types
    of animals, not just cats, but plenty of cats), that I want
    my cats to live long healthy happy lives - I think that they
    can do that without going outside.  I do know that my cats
    are not bothering any one else or damaging other folks property
    in any way, and I EXPECT the same in return from other animal
    owners.    
    
    I do know that each person is an individual with different ideas
    and opinions - that's great - it's what makes the world go round!
    But, when 'your' individuality infringes upon my rights and property,
    that's where I draw the line and expect consideration.
    
    E.T.

    Does anyone know of a law in New Hampshire, that if one of your
    animals (cat or dog) bites a person on your property, and if
    the bite is reported, and the animal is not vaccinated, that
    they immediately decappitate the animal for testing?  I'm not
    sure if I have the specifics of this law right, but that seems
    to be the jist of it, from what I'm hearing.  If you don't
    vaccinate your cats, and they bite a visitor - it's off with
    their heads!  
    
    Guess that's even more reason for me to keep my New Hampshire kids
    inside!  I like my cats with their heads on, at least most of them.
    As of this morning, my Lara almost got her head knocked off, she was
    being such a sh*tful girl! Actually, most of them have been serious
    brats all week!
    
    E.

    I think this is an issue of responsible pet ownership.  To act
    responsibly is to accept responsibility for the actions of your
    furry kids.  And let's face it, they are kids.  They are dependent
    upon us for everything.  We are their providers.
    
    Being responsible for your furry kids' actions is not limited to
    just caring for them.  It also extends to cleaning up any messes
    they make or repairing any damage they do to other's property.
    
    Unfortunately, we are also dealing with an ownership issue as well.
    By ownership, I mean there are no laws in either NH or Mass that
    I'm aware of that can prove ownership of felines.  By law dogs must
    be vaccinated and you have to provide a license through your city/town.
    There's your proof of ownership.  How do you prove legal ownership
    of a cat?
    
    If I were you I'd talk things over with your neighbor.  Stressing
    the fact that damage is being done to your property.  In the meantime,
    use the hose....it really works and won't hurt the cat.  Keep talking
    to the neighbor each time something happens.  If they are so
    inconsiderate that they allow it to continue, write them a letter
    and copy your local animal control officer on it.  Hand deliver
    the letter to the ACO and talk with them.  They'll probably go out
    and talk with the neighbor.  
    
    Good luck.  This is the neighbor's lack of consideration.  The cats
    don't know any better but they are usually the ones that suffer
    in the end.
    
    Nancy

    re: .28
    
    ET-
    
    I read about that in here awile ago, and was concerned because I let
    my cat out.  Coincidentally, a small child in the neighborhood got
    bit by teasing a cat around the same time.  I asked my vet (in MA)
    and he said he had never heard of such a law and that they would
    quarentine the cat for X amount of days.  If it showed signs of being
    rabid, they would then do the procedure you described.  If not, then
    the cat is free to go.  again, he wasn't positive, but though it very
    unlikly.  I'd be interested in getting a surer answer.
    

    Wow!  This issue is like a cat on a hot tin roof! (oops, sorry :-))
                                                        
    I can't remember all the reply #'s, so I am picking my responses
    randomly.  I have 4 neutered males, but the local "whole" male
    still sprays the outside of my house.  I watch him every morning,
    and eve, as he passes through my property on his way to the local
    cat whorehouse.  I have mentioned this to the owner, and she knows
    he does this, apologizes, says she is getting him cut, and another
    season goes by. (I thought of taking him, but I can't catch him) 
    I am sort of friends with her, as we both ride together.  The last
    time I "complained" about something (the smell of the horse waste
    they were not taking care of)  she stopped associating with me for
    a year.  People do not take this kind of thing well, even said by
    a friend in a kind manner.  Her own in-laws were going to report
    her, but she didn't believe me!
    
    I am going to start the "hose treatment", because the smell is
    getting bad.  He and the neighborhood cats use the undereve front
    of my home as a litterbox.  This is also another cleanup project
    I have to do.  Pull out the dirt, and replace with woodchips.
                                          
    I'm not happy about this, but it's not worth alienating the
    cat owner.  I will be having outdoor cats soon, too, and I
    want them to be safe. (of course, any outdoor cats of mine
    will be S/N & up to date on shots)  I am a RESPONSIBLE pet
    owner.  Unfortunately, too many others are not.
                                                          
    IT IS the owners responsibility!!!!  But short of causing
    harm to the cats (like taking the matter into your own hands
    like the NH man), and pissing off the neighbors, there isn't
    much you can do.  
    
    Well, off to buy cleaner to clean the foundation! :-)
    
    Lynne
    
    

    re:30
    
    Yeah, now they don't wait, and there isn't a quarantine - it's 
    just 'off with their head' in New Hampshire.  
    
    Boy, I'd like to see someone come to my house, overexcite to
    tease one of my cats, blame me if they get bitten, and have
    the law try and kill one of my cats.  If any of you have seen
    a person you know get very very very angry, think of that 
    person and multiply that amount of anger by about 10,000 and
    that's how I would be.  I would expect that anyone visiting
    anyone's home would be of their own accord.  I guess I can
    see them needing to check right away if it were an outdoor
    animal, a wild animal or something like that.  Although
    the idea certainly doesn't appeal to me for any animal.

    re: neighbors - My mother has always cautioned us about bad
    feelings with our neighbors.  As my mother says "You never know
    when you'll need a good neighbor."  Years ago when my father had
    his heart attack, the first neighbor over offering to help, to say
    with us kids so my mother could go to the hospital was also the 
    neighbor who's kids caused my parents the most annoyance - no real
    damage just alot of noise and running across the lawn, stuff like
    that.  
      I think her message is to chose your battles carefully and be 
    very sure that the price you'll pay by creating bad feelings is 
    worth it.  
      My mother would faint dead away if she knew that her "strong 
    minded" daughter was actually quoting her advice.  :-)
    
    I also think that until you own property you don't fully realize
    the significance of neighbors.  I know I didn't.
      Nancy DC
    

      I beleive that law in New Hampshire is directly associated with
    UNIDENTIFIABLE animals...NOT with those that can be proven to have had
    their rabies vaccinations current. If not, then New Hampshire must be
    living somewhere in Medieval times....
    
      Most states in the Midwest have laws related to un-vaccinated
    animals. I've read that the theory is that the rabies virus congregates
    in the brain, and the brain is what is needed to analyze for proof of
    the disease or abscense of it... I DO NOT believe that they'd take a
    dog or cat with a current rabies certificate and do that to them. If
    they do, I'd move to another state that doesn't practice wizardry and
    witchcraft in the State Government...
    
    
      JMcD

    
    Thanks for all the replys ... It does give us all alot to think about.
    
    In response to NH laws on rabies vaccinations.  I had taken my kitty to
    the vet and he had asked me if I had intended to get her a rabies shot. 
    I told him that I felt that it was unnecessary because she is a
    an indoor only cat.  My old vet in Merrimack (which I no longer use for
    reasons which is another topic for the notes file) tried to convince me 
    that she needed a rabies shot in case a bat flew into my house/attic
    and the cat was bitten, (Now what are the odds of that
    happening???Given the fact that I have no attic )  
    
    My new vet recommended the rabies shot for a different reason.  
    And that was that in the event that she did bite someone, state law 
    requires that the cat be quarantened (sp) for a certain # of s, and 
    a lot of paperwork.  He said just to avoid the hassels in the event 
    she was to bite.  Made more sense then the bat theory but I still 
    opted not to have it done.  He mentioned nothing about decapitation....... 
    I assume while in quarantene if she showed signs of being rabid then 
    they would have to put her down.  Maybe the idea of decapitation was 
    confused with an autopsey of something to that effect.
    
    I read a while back somewhere that the last reported case of rabies in
    the state of NH was some 50+ years ago.  Anyone else have any data to
    support this?
    
    One last thought about outdoor cats and owners taking responsibility.. 
    I don't want to offend anyone here but how much is involved with the
    owner just not wanting all the work/cleaning that comes with an indoor
    only cat.  Could alot of it just be shear laziness?   An out doors cat is
    surly eaiser You can have your pet when you want it and none of the
    litter box cleaning and you ha no responsibility for it when it's out
    "out of sight out of mind".  It sure makes his/her life easier.
    
    My vote is for leash laws.  If you want to own a pet take the
    responsibility that goes along with it..  Sure their
    cute and cuddly ther also a lot of work.  
    
    Valerie                               

    Well Valerie, I DO take offense at your remark about people who
    allow their cats outdoor being lazy and irresponsible. I know you
    do not intend to offend anyone, but how would you feel if I were
    to comment "People who contain their cats indoors are cruel and
    selfish" ?? I have 2 indoor/outdoor cats, one is 7 the other 2 1/2
    years old. They are vaccinated, wormed, and wear breakaway collars
    with name tags on them. We live on 7 acres boarding a 100+ acre
    conservation area. We have been living there 3 years now, with not
    one single bad incident related to the cats being outside. I also
    have a horse and a German Shepard living on the property. I see
    that my cats are feed and coddled whenever they need it, and they
    are in/out by their own choice, all they need do is ask for the
    door to be opened, which they are both very voicetrous s(sp?) at
    doing. I have no litter box in the house, both are perfectly well
    housebroken and rarely have accidents. I take full responsiblity
    for my pets, all of them, and their well-being. Where they a problem
    to my neighbors I would certainly do whatever neccessary to remedy
    the situation, as I am sure most owners do. The neighbors in the
    base note are (hopefully) in the minority, and should not be used
    as a representation of all of us who allow our cats outside. They
    may well be lazy and irresponsible, but I do not feel you should
    judge others like that just because their views are different from
    yours. 
    

    Unfortunately, I think the attitude of the people in the base note is
    more the norm than the exception.
    
    

I feel that some may not understand that a cat, when allowed to roam,
doesn't just go to the next door houses during the normal transit of
territory....he/she can travel several miles in any direction on a normal
day.  Even though the neighbors you can talk to have no reason to
complain (or prefer, in deference to good relations with next door
neighbors, to simply keep quiet), it is quite probable that your cat
is stopping many places you don't know about....and strangers aren't
as likely to take the "deposits" your cat makes lightly.

If you are lucky enough to live far away from others, maybe the only
impact will be on the local bird/bat/rodent population.  If you don't
live near any endangered species breeding areas, this may not be a
problem....however, the majority of us are not so lucky - our decisions
to allow our cats to roam have direct NEGATIVE impact on the lives 
of the folks around us...
and, in that context, the decision to allow your pets to roam onto
other peoples' property, leaving their litter whereever they choose,
is irresponsible.  As has been said, it isn't an issue of how
"healthy" or "unhealthy" it is to allow your cat to roam free - it
is an issue of respect for your neighbors' rights to live WITHOUT
cats if they choose to.....and to live without the litter your cat 
leaves in their yard and garden, regardless of whether they have a
cat or not.

    Thankyou .36; my sentiments exactly!
    
    

    Noter .36 you are very fortunate to have 107+ acres for your cats to
    roam.  I could see where their roaming would not cause a problem with
    your neighbors.  Many of us don't have this type of situation and
    roaming cats are quite a problem for many reasons mentioned in this
    note.  I know that many folks with outside cats are responsible pet
    owners, but many are not.  You would'nt believe the reaction and
    vulgaraties that you get when you try to approach your neighbor about
    the problems of their free roaming cats.  And when you live in heavy
    populated neighborhoods with traffic the dangers to letting your cat
    roam at will are not in its best interests.  
    
    I would like to relay the latest news on the neighbors cats mentioned
    in the base note.
    
    Next door to my parents the neighbors own a dog that although not tied
    is trained to stays on his own property.  Well, one of the cats that
    we all are so familiar with by now, wanders into the dogs domain ( to
    tease it, which it does on a regular basis) and as most dogs do he chases 
    it out of it's yard and across the street, but this time, right
    under the tires of a car unfortunate enough to be at the right place at the
    worong time.  Not only was the cat killed but the dog almost got it
    too.
    
    Need we say more.....
    
    Valerie
    
    
      
    across the street wanders into the yard
    
    and 

    I hesitate to post this reply - you will see why...
    
    About ten years ago when we moved into our new house, we had
    similar problems with neighbor cats coming into our yard and
    doing damage and beating up our cats.  We did not know who
    the cats belonged to as they all seemed to roam free.  My
    husband at the time (now an ex) rented a small animal trap
    from the humane society and trapped one of the toms.  He took
    the cat to the humane society and had it neutered then brought
    the cat home and turned it loose.  The cat was understandably
    upset and he must have passed the word to the other cats in
    the gang to look out for the guy at our house because we never 
    had any problems from that time on.
    
    I know this sounds a little drastic and I am not recommending it
    nor would I ever do this myself.  
    
    Nancy

    Nancy, I kind of like your solution!  It is humane, and the cat
    is better off neutered and stray, than just plain stray.  Most folks
    who don't spay/neuter their cats and let them run amuck simply can't
    love them as much as we here in Feline love ours.
    
    If I had neighbors who let their unneutered toms roam and they were
    infringing upon my property, and posing a threat to my cats, I would
    not even bother to speak to my neighbors about the benefits of
    neutering, I would simply take their cats to the vet and have them
    done.  Yes it's money out of my pocket but as far as I'm concerned,
    it's for a good cause.
    
    I was expecting your reply to be a lot worse than you let on in
    your intro sentence!!
    
    
    --Roberta
    

    re: 24 - teasing.

	Having an un-neutered female cat is definately teasing the toms.

	Why not offer to have your female neutered, and their toms at the same
	time - a good compromise, and shows you are in favour of neutering for
	all cats, not just everyone elses.

	Heather
    

    Nancy,
    
    I also like your idea and it worked, didn't it? I don't think it's
    cruel at all!
    
    Robyn, Rocky & Smokey

    I'm a breeder, and my unspayed females are part of my Exotic Shorthair
    breeding program.  It's kind of hard to be a breeder, with only spayed
    cats!
    
    cin
    

    THANKS  Cin, nicely put....
    
    Very soon to be official   I'm hoping for "Valique". as my cattery
    name. I'll keep you posted...
    
    Valerie

    Nice Cattery name, Val, I hope you get it too....it's very classy.  
    
    cin
    

    Val, what breed of cat will you be breeding?  I like Valique too.
    
    
    --Roberta
    

    I am all for breeders being able to breed the cats.  I assume most
    breeders are trying to improve a specific breed and they love and
    care for their animals.
    
    The tom my ex had neutered was your basic alley cat who was allowed
    to roam at will.  Personally I don't see much advantage to allowing
    a cat of this type to breed at will and contribute to the unwanted
    overpopulation of kittens.  My cat is neutered but he is not a
    purebred.  He is a basic orange and white guy but I love him
    anyway.
    
    Thanks for the positive replys and I'm sorry if I offended the
    breeders out there.
    
    Nancy

    Hi Nancy,
    
    No, you didn't offend "us breeders out here" ;-)
    
    We are very concerned about the overpopulation of pets,
    ESPECIALLY those that roam and are have no home!  We are
    even concerned about overpopulation of purebreds, believe it
    or not!  You are correct:  we are trying to improve the breed,
    and in trying to breed "That Special Cat" we do have others that
    need good homes (ours or others).
    
    I think the solution to the roaming Tom was a good one!
    
    	Pennie

    I agree with Pennie - no offense taken at all.  And it IS a
    real pain when the neighbors don't neuter their Toms and they
    are, understandably, drawn to our homes.  I also LOVE Nancy's
    solution and wish that it was a viable solution in more
    situations.  
    
    Having trapped ferals - all four of whom turned out to be the
    sweetest most loving kitties - I really feel what a crime 
    contributing to the cat overpopulation problem really is.
    
      Nancy DC and the House 'o Cats

	Okay, seem to be getting closer to the problem......

	2 indoor/outdoor un-neutered males

	1 (?) indoor un-neutered female.

	Un-neutered males are spraying on the house.

	Somehow you need a solution that will

	1. Not entail, neutering your cat
	2. Not entail neutering their cats
	3. Not enforce their cats to be indoor/run only

	the solutions I and others have come up so-far are:

	water-spraying their cats,
	cleaning the area in which they spray
	cat-deterent in your yard (I've used "cat-scat" in the past)
	cat-attraction in their yard (cat-nip?)
	Putting feed for the birds in a place which is inaccessible for cats, 
	and winter-only, as that when they need it.

	What about keeping your cat away from the area thay spray when she's
	on heat?

	Have I missed any, or are there any other solutions from anyone?

	Heather

    
>    The tom my ex had neutered was your basic alley cat who was allowed
>    to roam at will.  Personally I don't see much advantage to allowing
>    a cat of this type to breed at will and contribute to the unwanted
>    overpopulation of kittens.  My cat is neutered but he is not a
>    purebred.  He is a basic orange and white guy but I love him
>    anyway.
 
	I don't agree with trying to keep breeding a specific feature into
	any animal, I'd rather neuter the "pure bred" and keep the mogs
	breeding rather than the other way around.

	I have two males, one dull ginger (and stripy), and one light ginger
	(light stripes on legs, but plain back). They have been neutered, as I 
	neither have the time or inclanation to breed cats.

	I would never order, or take on a pure-bred, unless it was a stray.  

	Heather

    Thanks guys for the support on the name I never would of imagined it so
    hard a task to pick a name for your cattery.  Anyway I have my fingers
    crossed and hope it comes through.  I at present will be breeding
    Himmalayans.  But as things progess that may broaden to Persians
    (Exotics???) you never know where life may lead you...
    But for right now just himmy's.  I have a great Persian PCP that
    is 7 months old and will be getting a Tortie Point next week, she's
    just 9 weeks old.  So it will be some time before I send out any birth
    announcments.  But will keep you posted.
    
    I'm going to try to keep it real small but I'm sure
    you all started out with those same exact words and now where's it got you??
    Anyway thats my intent.. Right now I will be working with the breeder
    which I purchased my girls from for stud services.  I am not able to
    keep whole males at this time.
    
    Just to set the record straightfor this note-- My mom just got her 
    first and only kitten 2 weeks ago.  She's 12 weeks old .........
    This problem has been going on for years before she ever owned a cat...
    So it's not that they are attracted to smells of Queens in heat or any
    thing like that.
    
    
    I am looking forward to the prospects ahead My Maxine came into her
    first heat last week at 7 months.  It won't be too long now.  
    
    Just a quick question if your cat does come in heat at a young age and
    the heat cycles develop quite regularly, instead of letting her continue
    unbreed can you breed her so that she kittens at a year.  Given that
    she's good size condition, weight ect.. ect..  Please advise.. 
    Might be a topic for another note. if so lets start one.
    
    We try our best to breed the best to keep and show and love the best!!!
    
    
    Valerie
    

    I better not even reply to .52 or .53, or I'll probably get in trouble.  
    
    Let's just agree that someone elses cat coming onto my property is not
    my fault, no matter what I have in my house or on my property.  And, it
    shouldn't cost me money to get rid of this other cat, or it's
    aftermath.  I have absolutely no idea who owns the cat that's spraying,
    and it isn't the neighbors on either side, or across the street.
    
    Breeding is a personal decision that gets made.  I think any personal
    decision to breed "moggies" or poor quality "purebreds" is
    irresponsible, but that's just my opinion....you don't have to agree,
    and I don't want to discuss it further.  It's pretty plain to see that
    there are many, many kittens looking for homes this time of year....I
    feel sad knowing what will probably happen to many of them.
    
    cin
    

    I'd like to kindly ask that the conversation be redirected to what was
    asked by the base noter.

    Deb
    FELINE co-moderator

>    I better not even reply to .52 or .53, or I'll probably get in trouble.  
 
>    Let's just agree that someone elses cat coming onto my property is not
>    my fault, no matter what I have in my house or on my property.  And, it
>    shouldn't cost me money to get rid of this other cat, or it's
>    aftermath.  I have absolutely no idea who owns the cat that's spraying,
>    and it isn't the neighbors on either side, or across the street.
 

	In .52 I gave some solutions, I am trying to help with the problem,
	and being fairly even-sided. 

	The opposite side of the coin to you is - cats roam, un-neutered
	cats spray, it's not the owners fault, it's natural.
	I'm trying to find solutions that would work for both sides. If you
	can't do this, then you may end up with the problem for much longer.   
   
>    Breeding is a personal decision that gets made.  I think any personal
>    decision to breed "moggies" or poor quality "purebreds" is
 
	The poor quality that comes with consistantly breeding a specific 
	"strain" of cat is very unkind to the cats. Cat breeding is 
	becomming more and more like dog-breeding, with congenital and
	nervous problems more common than not. Moggies are much more
	resilient and come with none of these problems.
	This has nothing to do with the number of cats available, 1st decide
	if you want to breed. If thats what you want to do, breed moggies, not
	"purebreds".
	
	The other point about what happens to unwanted kittens, I think the 
	problem is much worse in the US than the UK, the Cat protection league
	and recue centres always manage to find homes for kittens.
	Most adult cats are also placed, but its becoming more difficult to
	place these.
	
	Heather

    never mind!
    
    You apparently don't understand the issues regarding breeding.
    
    cin
    

>	The opposite side of the coin to you is - cats roam, un-neutered
>	cats spray, it's not the owners fault, it's natural.
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Are you seriously suggesting that the owners of DOGS that chase cats,
threaten children, generally hassle you and your neighbors would not
be responsible for the dog's behavior????  Or that parents cannot be
held responsible for the behavior of their CHILDREN???  

Of course the cat owner is responsible!  You wouldn't say the dog owner or
parent isn't responsible for the damage caused by the dog or child...
the cat owner is JUST AS RESPONSIBLE as a parent or a dog owner.  
The cat didn't get into the area by magic, a human brought the cat to
the area in which the damage/hassle occurs.

I am strongly conditioned to take responsibility for the damage I cause, 
directly through my own actions, OR indirectly through the behavior of 
my pets/children/guests.  I surmise that we are dealing with cultural
or familial differences here - some of the replies indicate a much
different view point as to the limits of responsibilty.

    er: .59 - I concurr.  I feel personally responsible for my cats'
    behavior.  part of that includes keeping my cats leashed so that
    they do not become a nuisance.  We have a neighbor who, despite
    repeated requests plus written complaints to the animal control
    officer, insists on letting her dog run free.  I shudder when
    I think of what could happen if that d*&*@d mutt came into our
    yard when the cats were out and I wasn't around.  (I am always
    right there supervising).  And you better believe I hold the
    neighbors responsible!!
    
    While spraying in unneutered males is an instinctive behavior and
    not something you can train them out of, the owner can improve
    the situation by neutering.  Even if the cat keeps spraying it
    won't smell anywhere near as bad.
    
    When you own property, I think, your perspective is a bit different.
    You better believe that I resent the fact that we paid $140K for our
    house and my cats aren't safe in their own yard!!!!!!
    
      I guess this qualifies as more than $.02.... must be at least
    $.25 worth.
      Nancy DC

    
>    When you own property, I think, your perspective is a bit different.
>    You better believe that I resent the fact that we paid $140K for our
>    house and my cats aren't safe in their own yard!!!!!!
    
 	Well, I do own my own house with a small garden.

	It is completeley fenced at the back, and I have a gate which will keep
 	out any wandering dogs or children.

	Cats can come and go as they please.

	I have a cat-flap for my cats to go in and out whenever they choose.
	I have one neighbour with a spayed female, they also have a cat-flap
	and all three cats use both flaps.

	I have had an un-neutered cat come into my house - the kitchen area, 
	and spray. He has done this a couple of times recently.

	I really don't see how the owners can be responsible for this.
	And, at the end of the day, it's only a smell, not an attack or damage.

	My solution to this is to go out at the weekend and buy an electronic
	cat-flap, activated by an attachement to my cats collars.
	I will get an additional attachement for the neighbours spayed female,
	as she often plays with my cats and comes in the house.
	I will also have to buy a collar for my older cat, as he currently 
	doesn't wear one.

	This will allow my cats and one neighbours spayed female free access, 
	but not any others - like the un-neutered tom.

	Problem solved without any adverse affects to any of the cats, myself, 
	or my neighbours.

	Heather

    re: .61 - Sorry, we have a big yard and can't afford a fence.  I
    also feel that I shouldn't have to go to that expense because of
    a neighbor's lack of consideration and refusal to accept the
    responsibility for his/her pet.    A fence is a solution to this
    problem (Provided the dog doesn't jump it - this is a BIG dog)
    but I still feel that I shouldn't be required to spend thousands
    of dollars to keep out a dog that has no business in my yard in
    the first place.  
    
    Having said that, I'm going to agree to disagree and drop this
    discussion.  Besides, the original note was about cats not dogs.
      Nancy DC
    

    Before this gets any more lively, I'm going to ask once again (remember
    reply .56?) that if this conversation is to continue it be redirected
    to what was asked by the base noter, and, as Nancy and Cin
    said/implied, that folks are going to have to agree to disagree about
    the other topic, or to take it to the Indoor/Outdoor note.

    Deb
    FELINE co-moderator

	Okay, so back to the base note,

	Have you tried any of the solutions proposed here, and have you solved 
	the problem?

	Heather