Conference misery::feline_v1

    I'm not an  expert by any means but I have never heard of docking
    the manx' tails. There are three kinds of manx tails- the rumpy
    (which is completely tailess), the bumpy (which has the stump),
    and the long tailed cat which looks basically like any other cat.
    Docking would be frowned upon as it would then not be a true bumpy
    and seems to be unethical since bumpies are breed for appearance-
    not surgically altered.
    
    The Manx people (the ones on the Isle of Man -I mean) breed their
    cats with a GREAT deal of care and would NOT dock a tail.
    
    Pat (who hopes to go to the Isle of Man this summer - BTW)
    
                           

    just an additional note- the Manx cats on the IOM are constantly
    in jeopardy of being stolen by people from off the island coming
    for a "visit".  The catteries on the island have waiting lists for
    up to five years, so rather than wait for a cat some people steal
    a cat and sell it to buyers for large sums. It is not the long tailed
    Manx which are wanted but only the rumpies and stumpies.
                  
    So I can see why someone might alter a long tailed Manx cat, and
    try to pass it off as a stumpy. He could get alot of money for it.
    
    Also in breeding, a long tailed Manx bred with any other variety
    of Manx could still produce a rumpy or stumpy, so an unknowledgeable 
    buyer would never know if he were "taken" or not.
    
    Pat

    If there is a market, some *H will do whatever it takes to
    make the $$$$.  Docking, ear cropping, surgery, makeup, etc.
    This goes across the board - horses, dogs, cats, even rabbits.
    From something as harmless as using white powder to make a
    white rabbit, white cat, white  dog, or horse with white feet 
    look whiter, to docking, chemicals, drugs, or surgery.  Some
    breeds of dogs are "supposed" to be barkless.  Surgery can do
    this and the dog is sold to an unsuspecting buyer.  Horses in
    shows are drugged to "behave", or trained with cruel methods.
    Cropping ears has spread to the horse industry where certain
    breeds require "perfect, small, delicate looking ears."
    Dobe's and boxers are cropped & docked, but I have seen them
    "undone", and they are attractive dogs, a Dobe looks very houndish.
    I was at the vets few weeks ago, and a woman came to pick up her
    boxer puppy that had had it's ears done.  The pain in the puppy's
    eyes alone caused me to cringe, along with the rest of the group
    waiting to see the vet.  The woman actually apologized to the puppy
    and us!!!
    
    As long as there is a market....need I say more?
    
    P.S. - There is a five year waiting list for the Manx cats
    from the IOM, yet we destroy millions of cats a year because
    there are not enough homes.  This is wrong!  Something is wrong
    with this picture.
    
    Lynne
    

    I once saw a dobe with uncropped ears.  He was adorable!!  I'd gladly
    take a 'natural' dobe anyday.
    
    Lynne, I do agree with your viewpoint; unfortunately, for every
    good cause there is an even better arguement.
    
    Let's not take this note down a rathole.  It is a very controversial
    subject.
    

    "Let's not take this note down a rathole.  It is a very controversial
    subject."
    
    Yes Please, I openned this note to discuss a subject I hadn't seen
    discussed in this notefile before - surgical alteration of cats.
    The note was openned in response to a reply in the Honeybears note
    about Manx breeders who end up docking their tailled Manx cats in
    order to be able to place them.  
    
    Personally, I can't see the point, but then again, I have four holes
    in my earlobes.....  Its amazing what humans will do for fashion, eh?
    
    

I believe that surgical alterations, in some cases at least, are started
to correct birth defects....a case in point being the "stiff tail" described
for fold kittens.  A tail in which the "stiff" backbone (rather than the
more flexible cartilege) extends too far toward the end of the tail, presents
a hazard to the cat/pup (happens to dobies too) - it is always getting broken
and can lead to infection, blood-poisoning, and even gangrene when the
flow of blood to the end of the tail is blocked.  Some tails are docked,
and it becomes "fashionable" for all tails to be docked because the kitten
or pup looks "cute" that way.

In both the dog and cat world, breeders are reexamining the "habits" like
this and beginning to pull back from the automatic docking of tails or
ears.  Of course, having been around a happy doberman with a full tail,
I can tell you that the dog nearly whipped my legs to death - I had bruises
from thigh to calf from that tail.  I think the dobie tail may have been
docked in self defense!

    Okay, I will speak on the subject of why some of the Manx breeders
    that I know have docked the tails on their kittens.
    
    First of all, lets go back to the type of tails that manx can have.
    The rumpy is the show quality Manx, it is the one that everyone
    wants the most.  Not only is there complete absence of a tail, there
    is actually a slight indentation where the tail should be.  This
    is important to note, since Manx whose tails have been docked will
    not have this. The stumpies have a stub of a tail, or sometimes
    half a tail.  Then there are the tailed Manx.
    
    Now, breeders use the tailed Manx in their breeding programs because
    they must only breed rumpies to tailed Manx in order to avoid problems
    with the lethal gene.  But, not all tailed Manx are of good enough
    type to use for breeding, so those must be sold as pets.  The pet
    buyers, seeing a tailless Manx cat at a show, want their pet Manx
    to look just like it, afterall, the breed is known for it's
    taillessness.  So, they don't want to buy a Manx with a tail.
    Occassionally, breeders will have rumpies that are pet quality,
    and those sell with no problems, since they have the trait of
    taillessness that the buyers want.  But, the tailed Manx looks like
    any other domestic cat, and no one wants it.  If a breeder cannot
    find good homes for their pet kittens, then they cannot continue
    to breed.  
    
    So, the breeders dock the tailed kittens tails, and sell them to
    the pet buyers.  Most of the breeders that I know *tell* the buyers
    that the kitten's tail has been docked.  That way, there is no
    deception about how the cat came to be tail-less.
    
    I am just presenting the other side of the story here.  My discussing
    it does not mean that I agree or disagree with it, or that I condone
    it.  I just think it is important that both sides of the issue be
    known.
                                                         
    Jo

    **** Warning - I am asking this question for information only because I
    am sincerely curious; I am not trying to provoke/start/continue debate***

    Jo, since you've talked to some of the Manx breeders, maybe you could answer
    this. I've heard that one of the reasons that a cat has a tail is for
    purposes of balance (like when they are high up on a tree branch or the
    walking along a travis rod; similar to a circus performer using a rod
    in a high wire act). How does docking of a Manx's tail effect the
    cat's balance/equilibrium. For that matter, do "rumpies" or other
    bobtailed cats have balance problems? Or is the story about the tail used
    for balance just an old husband's tail?

    Deb 

    I don't know if the balance thing is an old husband's tail or not,
    but Manx cats, rumpies, stumpies, and those with docked tails, don't
    seem to have any problems with balance.  They get along just fine.
    
    The one thing that one must check for when buying a Manx kitten
    is that their back legs are strong and work independently.  Some
    Manx may exhibit a kind of "bunny-hop" gait that is the result of
    a type of genetic defect.  In CFA, the judges check for this, just
    as they check for the stiffness in the tail of the Scottish Folds.
    
    Other problems that have been associated with the Manx are dribbling
    urine, or having bowel control problems.  Both of these problems
    are fairly rare, and breeders have been carefully planning their
    breeding programs so as to completely eradicate them from their
    chosen breed.
                 
    Also, Manx are higher on their back legs than they are on their
    front legs, perhaps this build up of the back legs helps with balance.
    
    Jo

    Almost forgot.  One kitten out of a litter of four that a friend
    of mine had dislocated his tail just short of halfway down.  The
    tail had to be docked since efforts to splint it didn't work.  The
    kitten didn't have any trouble with balance, and was just as playful
    and rambunctious as it's littermates.  This docking was done when
    the kitten was about 12 weeks old.
    
    Jo

    That is interesting. One of the reasons that I ask is that Spiro had a
    tail injury and his agility in doing high-wire acts just isn't the
    same as it was. Of course, I guess I can't expect a seven year old that
    was on his own for six years to be as agile as the pampered youngsters
    (Eirene & Panther). Another reason that I wondered is because when I
    see Panther and Eirene deciding to climb up the cat tree rather than
    jump, I notice that their tails seem to play quite a part in the feat.
    
    Deb

    Parakeets have a very large tail feather, and when it's moulted (each
    year?  twice a year?  I forget how often....) it
    takes them a day or two to learn to rebalance.
    

    See note 3233 for a related discussion.
    
    Graham Warnes + Fudge + Squiff
    CSC Warrington, UK

    The more I hear about Manx's the more convinced I am that Bumpy-tail
    is a "Stumpy" manx.  I think she's a purebred.  I'd love to find a
    Manx breeder in this area who could confirm this.  From pictures I"ve
    seen she definitely has the body type, including the "jacked up" back
    end and her tail is about 1/2 length, which in and of itself is not
    proof, but the bone curls at the end like the top of a violin which
    I've read is definitely a Manx trait.  I got her from the animal
    shelter when she was two years old so I have no way to verify any
    of this.
    
    re: age and agility - Well, you certainly couldn't tell by Mao.  At
    age 10.5 she is still, by far, the best jumper in the house.
      Nancy DC

    re: .3
    
    I'ld like to go back and discuss the use of powders, sprays,
    conditioners, etc.  
    
    I consider this something totally different than actually "mutilating"
    the cat.  
    
    For showing purposes, we use powders or sprays to enhance the cats
    already good looks.  Just like triming hair in certain areas does.  I
    consider this similar to a person putting on make-up or doing their
    hair.  
    
    Maybe we shouldn't even be allowed to bathe our cats, since this really
    is "unnatural" also.
    
    I'ld like to discuss how people feel about this more.
    
    cin
    

    Hmm.  That's an interesting analogy - using makeup !  Suits what folks
    do for show kids.  The only thing I question is when persian folks
    powder pack a cat - I guess I don't really understand it, never 
    having done it or seen it done.  
    
    I'm lucky with the brown patched - I use next to nothing on her -
    just a spritz of Bay Rum - don't have to, but it smells good and
    seems to enhance her red/mahogony - she's very easy to show.
    Now, if I had a 'white' boy, whew, that's a lot of work keeping
    them clean and show ready.
    
    I don't think using stuff that is safe for the animal is a bad thing.
    Covering a serious defect in the cat is another, like dying black,
    using henna (sp?) on reds, etc.  If a show hall is dry, and you
    use a spray to hold the hair down so it doesn't stand on end, and
    it doesn't damage the cat or make it ill, I don't think that's a
    bad thing.  
    
    The poor judges are so used to feeling conditioned, powdered, shampooed
    coats (fur), that I"m not sure they would know what a natural cat felt
    like !!  just kidding !
    
    I know some folks do things that are wrong and not safe just to show
    a cat - I've heard stories - guess the folk I am friendly with at shows
    don't participate in unsafe practices.
    
    Jo, I can understand why the Manx breeders do what they do, but I'm
    not sure I accept it nor would I do it.  It's probably one of those
    problems that will never go away - I sometimes wonder why we breed
    breeds with serious genetic defects like ears and tails - they are
    really beatutiful, but.....   I thought your explanation why, was
    very good - thanks - it gave me a different perspective on the subject.
    
    E.

    I consider the use of conditioners, sprays, and powders to be part
    of grooming, and not on the same level as mutilating a cat in pursuit
    of the $$$$.  
    
    When I groom my cats, for show, or even just at home, there are
    certain products that I use on them.  Conditioners help prevent
    static, which can cause painful shocks when I or a judge touches
    my cat.  Grooming powder helps keep the fur nicely separated, helps
    reduce static, and keeps the oils in my hands from spoiling the
    coat when I am handling the cat alot.  Powder can also help to control
    stud tail, which is not only unattractive, but can also be unhealthy 
    for the cat.
    
    Jo

    Elaine, I share your viewpoint regarding the powder-packing.  I
    use a bit of Mr. Groom powder on Murdock but that's about it.  I
    have seen Persian breeders powder pack (with baby powder) and the
    cloud of dust it creates is enough to send my lungs into constrict
    mode!  I often wonder how the poor cats feel.
    
    On the docking tails, do the breeders perform the docking or do
    their vets?  Do all tailed kittens get docked or just the ones that
    will not be used for breeding back to rumpies?  I thought I recall
    someone saying that the docking is done at only a few days old.
    That would conflict with Jo's statement of "typey" tailed cats being
    used in the Manx breeding programs.  A breeder cannot tell if a
    tailed kitten will be typey at only a few days old.  So, at what
    age does the docking actually occur and who does the procedure are
    my questions.
    

    I think Jo meant that the pet's tails were docked so they 
    would sell. The cats used for breeding probably wouldn't
    need their tails done.
    
    ?
    E.T.

    I am suprised that you have seen a persian breeder powder packing
    their cat at a show, since normally that is done at home, after
    the bath, as part of the pre-show grooming.  The idea is to powder
    the coat while it is still slightly damp, and then blow dry all
    traces of the powder out before the show.  The powder will lift
    and separate the hairs, making the coat seem fuller.  I don't have
    persians, or show them, but most of my grooming books describe powder
    packing in this way.  Only a few colors of cats can be powder packed,
    it wouldn't do on a black, or a tabby, I suppose.  Most breeders
    will not use baby powder on their cat.  Be careful what you assume.
    I have my Mr. Groom in a small Baby Magic Powder cannister since the Mr.
    Groom cannister is too big to lug around to shows.  Lots of people
    assume I am using baby powder on the cat, when I am not.
    
    Jo

    Thanks Nancy for moving this note.
    
    I wrote in elsewhere about the search that my friends went
    through to find a Manx kitten.  They could not find a breeder
    anywhere in the northeastern US that they were really happy 
    with.  They had to choose between generally unhealthy living
    conditions and docking.  They chose the docking breeder.  All
    the tailless kittens were spoken for; only the docked ones
    were available.  
    
    I just assumed that this was a matter of course for the breed,
    as with Dobermans and Boxers.  The breeder was very open with
    my friends about it.  I guess the only reason it is new to
    some of us is that no one in this notes file is a Manx breeder.
    
    Personally, I would not dock an animal for aesthetic reasons.
    However, for pet quality tailed Manxes it could mean the difference
    between a loving home and...
                      
    Susan, slave to Ditto 

    Yes, Jo, your right.  Powder packing is alway done at home.  I think
    what Roberta or Elaine might have seen was just excessive use of powder
    in the show hall.  I used to powder pack my white persian, because he
    had very long fine hair, and packing it made it fuller and kept him
    from getting curley overnight.  Always used a blow dryer the following
    morning and made a dust cloud in the room!  ;-)  I don't use baby
    powder either, I use plain corn starch.  
    
    I guess some of the things I'm not sure how I feel about are things
    like colored shampoos, and blueing for whites....how are these things
    much different than actually dying a black cat, for instance???  Now, I
    do use a blueing shampoo on my white cat, to enhance the white color,
    and this is a people shampoo....why shouldn't someone be able to use a
    black color rinse to make the black look better???  
    
    I do think there is a difference, but I don't know why....is it because
    I have a white cat, and I'm using blueing???  I'm not sure if that's
    being hypocritical.  Is using blue powder or brown powder okay....and
    if not, why is using white powder okay??  
    
    I'm not really sure how I feel ... 
    cin
    

    ref. 21
    
    I know that really good Manx breeders are hard to find in the
    Northeast. Part of the reason I want to go to the Isle Of Man 
    this summer is to look at some good breeding stock to use as
    a base for  a Manx breeding program I want to start in this area
    of New England.                      
    
    I plan to go into this with my mother and with another woman 
    from IOM who lives both here and in the IOM, and who has 
    connections with an IOM cattery. In any case, my mother will 
    be travelling there this summer for both a vacation as well as
    looking into the cattery, which she has visited on other trips there.
    
    My conditions for the cats will be healthy and they won't be docked
    because I don't believe in "docking." This will take awhile to set
    up because I want to establish a reputation as having excellent
    Manx.
    
    Pat
    

    The thing with using blueing on whites isn't really to improve color
    that they don't have, but more to keep them from staining, right?
    Or to take a yellowness out of their coats.  When someone uses a
    black rinse on their black, they are coloring the coat.  I have
    had judges tell me that a black shouldn't be jet black all over,
    since the color has natural variations.  I think that blacks will
    be suspect if they are jet black to the roots, without a single
    color variation.
    
    (wonder if either Postmarque or Bojangles are "rinsed") :^)
    
    Jo

    Jo,
    
    Aren't colored powders actually supposed to be against the rules???  In
    some ways, I don't see where enhancing a whites white is worse than
    enhancing a blacks black!  
    
    I do agree, it seems different, but I'm trying to figure out why.  I
    also used brown and red shampoos and powders...does this mean I'm
    cheating??
    
    cin...who wouldn't want to show a black if her life depended on it!
    

    The blueing shampoo is really to help remove staining, and make the
    white whiter.
    
    

    I don't know Cin, there is such a fine line.  For instance, with
    colored powders you might be trying to change your cats color, *OR*,
    maybe the cat needs powder, and white powder would distort it's
    color.  I had to powder Kalliste's tail when I was showing him,
    due to stud tail, and being a seal point, the white powder made
    him look as though he didn't have point color on his tail, so I
    used Fuller's earth for a bit, and then changed to that Brown Sugar
    powder.  I didn't feel I was cheating.
    
    Jo

    Re .23, if anyone is planning a vacation (holiday to us UK Feliners!)
    in the IOM, remember that last week in May & 1st week in June is TT 
    fortnight (m/cycle racing) and accommodation/ferry crossings are either
    unavailable or very costly.  The Manx Cattery in Douglas is well worth
    a visit (small number of cats though), as well as the races - but on
    separate occasions!
    
    Graham Warnes + Fudge + Squiff
    UK Feliner and Biker
    Warrington, UK