Conference misery::feline_v1

    Just a quick question-did you sign an agreement with the statement
    on the paperwork that you will have no pets in your condo?  I guess
    if it is in writing on your agreement, there is nothing much you can
    do?
    
    Nancy
    

    I would consult with another attorney.  I would think that since
    you own the condo, and the cats are inside with you, they cannot
    be considered a nuisance to others, and therefore the condo association
    cannot tell you to get rid of them.  What happened to bring this
    to light?  How long were you living with the cats before the condo
    association told you to get rid of them?
    
    What are they threatening to do to you?  Sell your house out from
    under you?  
    
    Jo

    3397.1 -There was no signed agreement with the association.  They
            just specified in their rules that no pets were allowed,
            although they have tried to pass a rule to have owners 
            of pets pay an annual fee ans been voted down. 
    
    3397.2 - I've had these cats for two (2) years, but since I was
             a friend of one of the members, they were overlooked.
             A new association has been in placed since August of last year
             and they never bothered me until I fell out of grace with
             them because I spoke out of term about an un-related
             matter.  I call that harrassment!  
    
             The penalty, according to this assoc. is $25 dollars starting
             March first, and $50.00 after the 15th of March and will
             double every two weeks until such pets are removed.  I
             thought I could hide them, but it's pretty difficult,
             besides, why live like I am in Russia?  I thought I was
             living in a FREE country with the ultimate american dream,
             MY OWN SPACE????
    
    

    Who is harassing you about the cats? Another owner, a tenant, a
    trustee or a management company?

    Providing that the cats aren't creating any kind of nuisance (like
    howling all night), you might try to get a waiver from the trustees to
    be able to have the cats.

    Before I bought my house, I had purchased a condo. Before I signed the
    P&S papers, I found out that pets were allowed. At the closing, and after
    all the papers were signed, I finally got the condo rules and
    regulations and discovered there was a limit of "one 5 LB pet". No one
    hassled me, but I did check with my lawyer and, condo regulations
    aside, he said that it is very difficult with an owner occupied unit to
    force them to get rid of a pet if the pet isn't causing any problems.
    (He also said that since I bought in Phase I, and no R&Rs were
    available but the place was advertised as allowing pets, things didn't
    really apply should things go to court.)

    One jerk DID give me a hard time about having multiple cats until I
    finally commented on:

       1. what a lovely cannabis plant he had in a street-facing window  
       2. condo rules prohibited using the premises for illegal activities
          (and growing marijuana fell into that category)
       3. I had an uncle and cousin on the local police force.

    I didn't hear another word about the cats.

    Bottom line, almost everyone does something that is prohibited by condo
    rules & regulations, from keeping pets to shaking their rugs out
    windows. Find their Achilles heel. (oh, and see a different lawyer).

    Deb

    This is ridiculous!  I, too, own a condo and their rule is one pet
    only and it has to meet certain dimensions -- like 22" high and
    so many inches long or some such nonsense.  I have five cats, and
    while 2 are allowed outdoors, the other 3 are indoors only.  Well,
    Kelsey walks on a leash so the neighbors know I have him.  We did
    receive a letter from the management company once about our 2 that
    roam the common grounds (some idiot complained), but I wasn't asked
    to "get rid" of them.  There is nothing in our condo rules that
    states cats can't roam, only dogs, so the management company contacted
    the folks who made the complaint and told them to work things out
    with me directly.  They never stepped forward.  I did worry about
    Nik and T.K. being out without me home so I started keeping them
    in during the day and two years later, there have been no more
    complaints.
    
    In your situation, I don't get it!  Your cats are indoors only,
    so how can they possibly be a nuisance to others?  Some people just
    aren't happy unless they have something to complain about!  Don't
    give up without a fight.  I think you have a very valid case here.
    
    
    --Roberta
    

    Just got through reading Deb's reply.  She's right!  I had an inkling
    of who was doing the complaining and had a list of "achilees heels"
    waiting to toss in their face had they stepped forward.
    
    Also, we are in very good standing with the management and development
    company.  By staying on their good side (i.e., kissing up), lots
    of things we do that shouldn't be done are overlooked (nothing illegal
    of course :^) ).  I have a feeling that because you spoke out on
    an issue, you are now a victim of circumstance, and harrassment.
    

    Are the "condo rules" you're talking about the actual legal,
    binding documents (can't think of the right name) for your condo
    association?  Also, how long have you owned the condo and how
    long have you had the cat(s)?  Was the "rule" put in after you
    purchased or got the cat(s)?
    
    What the association will most likely do (if they are serious about
    this) is put a lien on your property for the unpaid "fine".  You
    would then not be able to sell the property until the fine was paid
    or the matter settled in (or out of) court.
    
    I would try to work it out and also to get the rules changed.  If you
    have the resources to back it up, tell them you'll fight them in
    court....who knows, there may be a way around it and they might not
    want to spend the money to defend.  Definitely talk to another 
    attorney, preferably one that also loves cats 8').
    
    
    Good luck
    Bob 

As the cats are indoor-only, I should think a letter to the assoc. stating
this fact, stating the duration of time you have had the cats with
you, AND stating the fact that you have signed no agreements promising you
would NOT have pets is appropriate.  I would find a lawyer who is willing
to work with you on this.  As the cats are confined within your condo,
they are your "personal property"....they cannot be construed to cause
any "wear and tear" on the surrounding property so I don't understand the
reason for the protest.  At any rate, you've had the cats for more than
a year with no official protest which sets a strong precendence for your
right to keep them.  Don't give up without a fight.  In many cases, this
can be an attempt to "bully" someone into giving up....they are not
often willing to push it to court (and spend all that money) if there
is no real damage to the association's property involved.

    Um, I am a little more pessimistic about this than the previous
    replies.  Condo rules are (usually? always?) binding on the condo
    owners...that's one of the down sides of owning a condo instead
    of a single family home (the up sides include having snow shoveled,
    grass mowed, roof repaired, etc.)
    
    You can try to work within the association of owners to have the
    rules changed.
    
    Your case is stronger if the rules were put into effect *after*
    you already had the cats, and also, the fact that you have had
    them for a while does set a precedent for them to be implicitly
    allowed.
    
    Before I made the offer on my condo, I had my attorney send around
    a form that was signed by all other owners that I would be allowed
    to have indoor cats unless they caused a health hazard or were
    bothersome noise-wise, etc.  The condo rules in existence allowed
    for pets, but left room for the other owners to decide that they
    were bothered by, perhaps, the sight of cats sitting in my window,
    for example.  The seller knew that I would not buy without the other
    owners' signatures on the form, and so he help pass it around.
    
    Good luck!
    
    	Pennie

    Seems to me that I read an article in Cat Fancy or Cats magazine
    about a similar situation occuring in New York where housing is
    at a premium.  There may even be a precedent setting case. 
    
    More suggestions include writing to the cat magazines for more
    information or pointers to issues that contain articles on this
    subject, and seeking out another attorney's opinion.
    
    I hope that you work this out.  I agree with the others that this
    seems unbelievable.
    
    Jo

    When we were looking to buy our first house/condo I also explicitly
    asked about cats.  We didn't buy a condo because I couldn't stomach
    the thought of spending all that money and then having someone else
    tell me what I could and could not do within my own four walls.
    
    I agree with the others about contacting another lawyer.  I don't 
    remember the details, but if there was no written document that
    you signed when you purchased the condo stating that pets were
    prohibited then I don't think you can be legally sanctioned for
    having the cats.  Also, as was previously stated, if the cats were
    allowed for two years prior to this then that does imply consent.
    
    Good luck and keep us posted.  Personally, I'd rather spend the 
    money to go to court than pay the fine.
      Nancy DC

    re: harassment - if it turns out that their actions can be construed
    as harrassment then the threat to sue them may just shut them up -
    especially if the threat comes in the form of a letter from your
    lawyer.
    

    Re .4, I loved your response, Deb!
                                   
    I agree with most all the responses.  Don't let them get away
    with this garbage.  This fine they want to impose, was it in
    writing, submitted to all condo owners prior to purchase of condo?
    Or did they make this up specially for you? (such nice boardmembers)
    
    re: Harrassment - get another lawyer who's willing to work with
    you, and have them send a letter threatening to sue.  You have
    had the cats two years without any problems, notices, etc., so this
    implies acceptance/consent from the owners.  You also did not sign
    anything agreeing to the no pets policy, nor do your cats go outside.
    
    If you know who is causing the harrassment, confront them.  They
    are obviously afraid to come face to face, so this would give you
    an advantage, and make them MIGHTY uncomfortable.  This might be
    all you need to do to stop this now.
    
    L-

    You have all being so supportive.  Until yesterday, I thought I was all
    alone in thinking that this was outrageous.  There is a condo
    association meeting coming up the 21st, and I intend to bring all this
    information with me and give them a peace of my mind.  I also know a
    few bits of wrong doings that I did not want to use, but if forced to,
    I will do it. I am dealing with a very tight crew, since all of them
    are very tight and run it like the Gestapo headquarters, if you get my
    drift.  
    
    I will continue on gathering more information and will call the local
    humane society and I was also thinking about calling the newspapers
    about doing a human interest store or write to the editor, as someone
    suggested in one of the notes.  
    
    Thank you for your support, I needed that, and I will keep you posted.
    
    By the way, let me introduce my two furfaces:
    
    1.  Tama - grey angora - about 12 pounds and he thinks he is king.
    2.  Gibson - grey angora - about 10 pounds and he is shy but
        loving - he is the one that was abused by my friend.
    
    They look like two book-ends.
    
    Nilda
    

    Good Luck with your fight - from a UK Feliner unconstrained by
    Condo-Rules ! 
    Keep us all posted with any news.
    
    Graham Warnes + Fudge + Squiff
    Warrington, UK
    

    Be advised.......talk to an attorney and KNOW exactly where you
    stand before going to the association meeting.  If the "no pets"
    rule was in the condo docs when you purchased the condo you're
    going to have a problem if they want to enforce it.  It's not
    necessary for them to have had you sign anything agreeing to this
    condition....if it's in the docs, it's the "law".  Again, they
    can (and by the sound of things, will) fine you and place a lien
    against your unit until it's paid.
    
    Have you tried talking to any of the trustees individually to try
    to gain their support?  That's the time you could bring up the other
    "violations" that are going unenforced and "suggest" that if they
    intend on enforcing "no pets" they will have to enforce all others.
    
    Your best approach might be to suggest that the by-laws be ammended
    to something such as:  No pets allowed in common areas, must be
    kept inside, no larger than.....etc.
    
    Best of luck!
    
    Bob

    Just had another thought.....take a look at the condo docs and
    see what's required to ammend them.  It might be that you could
    propose an ammendment which a certain % of the owners must approve
    for passage.  You could then start talking to the other owners to
    see what your chances would be.  Could be the majority of them might
    like a pet themselves.
    
    
    Bob

    I'm with Bob on his comments and suggestions.  I too am owned by cats but
    also own my property inside.  I rent the mobile home lot.  I am allowed
    one animal on *their* property.  As the dog is the only one that goes
    outside, my cats don't apply to *their* property.  They did try to
    impose a *pet fee* but it is illegal in NH.
    
    Keep up the fight but legally.  Definitely know your rights before you
    confront the *committee*.
    
    By the by,  your cats sound adorable.  Could I borrow your *book-ends*
    for my daughter?  I need something *unique* for her birthday.
    
    	Good Luck
    
    	Sandi with Black Thunder, White Lightning, Storm (woof-woof),
   			 DejaVu & Patches the Stray
    
    

    Hi Nilda,
    
    I'm in full sympathy about your situation.  I can tell you my
    experience as a condo board member.
    
    I've been on our board for about 2 years, and in the early fall we
    instituted a fine system which included violators of our rules and
    regulations.  We originally had a no-pets rule.  I pointed out that an 
    indoor-only cat wasn't bothering anyone, so why not allow them?  
    As easily as that, we changed our rules and regulations to allow 
    one indoor-only cat.  We agreed that if the cat was roaming the halls 
    or was let outdoors, the board had the authority to levy a fine against 
    the owner of the unit and ask them to get rid of the kitty.  We look for
    animals that are *annoying to others* -- ie dogs (they bark), other
    outdoor animals (they leave lawn "litter").   Unpaid fines can lead to 
    liens and eventual foreclosure.
    
    As for the legal documents that you signed at your closing, they are
    binding and require you to abide by the by-laws and rules and regs.  
    Again, rules & regs are changeable.  Our by-laws authorize the 
    board to make these changes.  Yours might also do the same.
    
    And as for your current board, they are *elected*.  I have
    strongly encouraged my co-owners in my condo that, if they don't like how
    the condo is run, to get on the board and change it.  My condo had a
    hard time even coming up with interested owners to run for the board,
    so I personally recruited the complainers.  They're wonderful additions
    to the board, as I knew they would be!
    
    There are lots of positive things about living in a condo which have
    already been mentioned, but the one big negative is that you co-own
    with lots of other people who may not think the way you do.  Since it's
    a group decision as to how a condo is run, that's the risk you take in
    owning a condo.  There are sacrifices.
    
    BTW, within a few weeks after my suggestion to change our rules &
    regulations to allow one cat, I got my first kitty -- Cammey, a real
    sweetheart.  I had our board meeting at my place on Monday and they all
    met her and liked her, too.  Of course, she does have the endearing
    habit of caressing everyone's feet with her little head.
    
    I hope your story has a happy ending!
    
    Best,
    Debbie
                                                  

    They can't sell the unit out from under you.  They can fine you
    monthly, and if you refuse to pay the fine, they can put a lien
    on your unit.  This means that the fees will have to be paid
    in full before you sell the unit.  If there are other pet owners
    in the building, you cannot be singled out and fined.  The fine
    structure must have been voted on by all Trustees, entered into
    the minutes for the meeting, and posted to all residents via
    U.S. Mail.  If you feel their actions are harassment, then consult
    a lawyer.  As I stated earlier, if their are other pet owners
    in the building, singling you out constitutes harassment. 
    
    There are lousy people out there who will push you as far as they
    can before you start pushing back.  
    
    If you are a renting tenant in a condo you can be evicted if you
    refuse to follow the rules, but they can't evict an owner (at least
    not in NH).
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    Mary-Michael Cochrane (a former condo Trustee)

One additional comment:

Laws in states differ.... however, in Cal. and (I think) a New England
state, successful legal action has been brought to just this type of issue.
If your cats are indoor-only, they are "personal property" - they have
no impact on the common areas of the condominium (which is what you
share with the other owners).  Just as nobody has the right to tell you what
type of furniture you CAN own, they also may not tell you what "personal
property" you CANNOT own...as long as this property does not infringe
on other condo owners' rights.  If you are renting a unit, you are
obliged to follow the rules established by the owner of that unit regarding
what you can do to the interior of the unit; as a buyer, you have the 
right to choose what you have IN your own home.  The one fallout from
this is that you may be asked to PROVE you cats are indoor-only...how
mad have you made the complainer(s)?  Mad enough to lie?  Are your cats
de-clawed?  Is it possible that a cat or cats that look like yours
ARE fouling the common areas and you are taking the blame?

Many associations establish one or more "nuisance" rules (which they often
know wouldn't stand up in court, but which they can use to "manage" 
members) - rules that are very selectively enforced, depending on how 
much you annoy someone.  If you don't overreact, do contact a lawyer
to write a letter stating your case and informing them you will take
the case to legal action if necessary, you may be able to start a
dialog with them....and you can get the agreement that you
require - legal action is costly and the condo association isn't going
to fight unless they KNOW they can win and recoup their losses from
you.

Main rule:  Don't get emotional...do talk to a lawyer (even ask advice from
the ACLU on this one - sounds like someone is trying to infringe on your
civil rights here - "a man's home is his castle", right? 8^})

    I suggest you try another lawyer, esp. one that a local
    tenants' rights group recommends, or the local
    animal welfare organizations might be able to recommend one who
    knows about this stuff.  It is relatively cheap to have an 
    attorney write a letter to someone, in this case the condo
    board, and it often gets results (legal stationary and the
    fear of a lawsuit strikes terror in the soul.)
    

    
    Stupid things like this (condo associations, rules_that_tell_you_
    what_you_can/cannot_do_with_your_property) are why I bought a
    house!!!!!
    
    My home IS my CASTLE!!!! (and the kittys' ;^) ).
    
    Fred, Diamond_the_hellcat, and Catfish

    
    Hang in there and keep us posted.  Don't let these a**holes get the
    best of ya!
    

    My condo rules include "all pets must be walked on a leash."
    
    Yuh right, Hobbes on a leash!  Noone enforces the rule.  Though
    Hobbes would probably live longer if I kept him under greater
    supervision.
    
    ed