Conference misery::feline_v1

    Call Penelope WHO????
    
    Thank goodness that's not MY home number listed!
    
    	Penelope the Cat_Lady
    		(who is having enough fun without Himmies, thanks  :-)

    Boy, it hurts to bite my tongue this hard...
    

    Barbara,
    
    I think we've all been scolded a little too much for giving our
    opinions on this subject.  
    
    I'm rather gun shy...so it's easier to bite my tongue.
    
    cin
    

    BTW, Barbara, I couldn't agree more!
    
    

    re: .2 - Oops, sorry Penelope :-)
    re: .1,.4 - ??  %-}
    re: .5 - I think that helps me to understand .1,.4 ... I think
    
    Asking as a newcomer to this notesfile (and purebread cats) - Is it
    reasonable to assume that since she doesn't have papers that finding a
    "mate" will be difficult ? and that allowing her to have kittens would
    only add to an already overpopulated cat world (but not benefit it) ?
    
    ...boy is she gonna be disappointed... she'll probably howl worse than
    ever tonight...   :-)
    
    Jim

    re: .6,7 - Is there a keyword "/SORE_SUBJECT" that I should have
    searched on before entering this ?   :-)
    

    Jim,
    
    Your right about your interpretation of our notes.
    
    Not only will it be difficult to find a mate for your kitty, but it is
    considered irresponsible by most breeders, many feliners, and probably
    all shelters.  There are just too many unwanted cats and kittens in
    this world, not only "mutt" cats, but also purebreds.  It's sad to
    think about the millions of these cats that are put down every year
    because there are just not enough homes.  
    
    I realize that you will probably find good homes for all your kittens,
    but these people may have adopted a purebred from a shelter (they are
    there, you know), or bought a pet quality cat from a registered breeder
    working to improve the breed.  There was a beautiful black and white
    persian at the Copley show this weekend that was up for adoption from
    the shelter that had space at the show.  
    
    Most breeders sell their pet kittens with neuter/spay agreements, which
    means that you get papers after the cat is fixed.  Usually it's because
    the cat has a "flaw" of some type that make it unsuitable for breeding. 
    In the case of himalayans or persians or exotics, it is probably a
    longish nose with not enough "break".  Breeding these cats only adds to
    the cat population, rather than improving the breed.  
    
    I have been very strong feelings on breeding unregistered purebred
    cats.  Obviously, I don't think it should be done.  And, it is much
    healthier for your cat overall to not have kittens.  It also saddens me
    to see himalayans that look like birmans with colored feet...
    
    Huh, Pennie!
    
    If you'ld like to discuss this further, please feel free to send me
    mail.
    
    cin...
    

    Jim,
    
    Firstly,  Welcome to Feline !!  Ha, you say - you must be kidding!
    It just so happens that you have hit upon a, shall we say, 
    delicate topic amongst those folks that have house pets and
    those folks that do participate in, what we like to think,
    is a responsible breeding program.  That is NOT to say that
    you would not do that.  Some of believe that a cat that has
    not been registered should not be bred.  The cat with no
    papers, has no papers for many different reasons.  It usually
    means that the cat doesn't meet the standards of the breed and
    to reproduce the same poor quality is not the correct thing to
    do.
    
    Another feeling that is strong is having a litter for the
    sake of having a litter, is not a very good idea.  If you
    are going to improve the line or produce kittens that are
    better (meaning that they meet the written standard more than
    their parents), then breeding two cats is a wise thing to do.
    
    Breeders work very hard and spend lots of money to produce
    good quality, healthy animals.  Pet Quality kittens are sold
    as pets with spay/neuter agreements so the poor quality will
    not be repeated.
    
    Some folks say that they would like to own a certain breed, and
    can't understand why they should have to pay $$$ for that cat.
    
    From your node name, I assume you are here in MK0 as I am.
    If so, feel free to stop by my office and we can chat.  I hope
    you find some time to do that.  I'm not sure I explained the
    situation very well, but it's just my 2 cents !!
    
    We would really like to hear more stories about your baby. 
    
    Elaine (E.T.) 

    re:  .1 through .9
    
    Folks, I think from .1 to .9 we have really have neglected our manners.
    Nice to see the trend changing!  Jim is going to think we are a bunch
    of real weird people.

    Well, at least this time this topic is being handled in a much calmer,
    nicer manner than in the past, and while I wasn't real happy with some
    of the early responses  I appreciate seeing the improvement that I've
    seen in the last few notes. 

    Deb
    FELINE co-moderator

    Jim -
      You are VERY astute!!  And Welcome to Feline.
    
    I have a pet quality scottish fold that I love to pieces!!  He's
    always going to be extra special to me because he's my first fold.
    I really wanted to breed him - if for no other reason than to get
    another fold.  My breeder hadn't required a spay/neuter agreement -
    I think because he doesn't sell to anyone he considers less than
    totally responsible.  I finally got Dundee neutered because I HAD
    bought him as a pet and for all the other reasons stated earlier.
    
    Of course, that hasn't stopped me from getting one knock-out of
    a scottish fold female - Show/Breeding quality.  I'll hopefully
    be working with Bev Hardacre and Tony Costa (Dundee's and Bonnie's
    breeder) to produce more of the "Costa-type" folds that I love
    so much.
    
      Hope to see you at the cat shows!!
    
    And I too am VERY happy at the way this was handled.  Congratulations
    folks!!
      Nancy DC

    This isn't addressed to Jim, but it just seemed to be
    a place to put this note.  Some of you may recollect that I
    was acquired by Little Bit who was originally a stray someone
    dumped in the neighborhood, who was temp taken in by neighbors, then
    wound up with me when they dumped him.  So now I have three cats
    in a tiny house and am definitely over cat max.  And last weekend
    I noticed another very-likely-a-stray outside, and last night I saw
    him or her again. Aaaeerrtrrehdfsjsfdjdsfhsdgsd!  
    

    
    Gee, thanks for the warm welcome... %-}  I think I've recovered now.
    ...and to think I was concerned as to whether the wording/humor in
    my base note was 'appropriate'... I never gave it any thought what
    a can of worms I might be opening.
    
    I really do appreciate all of the input.
    
    I thought I heard, or read, somewhere that it was better for the cat
    (for some reason, though I'm not sure why?) to have a litter before
    being spayed. I take it this isn't true ? I mean, she won't freak out
    if she never experiences motherhood will she ? :-)
    
    Another couple questions, too - I hope you don't mind educating me...
    She's now been in heat twice. The first time lasted over a week, but
    this time only a few days of howling and far_more_affectionate_than_usual 
    behavior. Is this normal ? Also, how often will this happen ? These two
    times occured within about a month of each other.  
    
    ...and last, but not least - How soon can she be "repaired" ? I mean,
    is it bad for her to keep going into heat, but not get "satisfied" ?
    She's an indoor cat, but we realize the risk is there! Everytime
    someone goes out she runs to the front door and howls when she can't
    go too.
    
    Ok - you wanted a story... here goes. Last week my 9-year old daughter,
    Courtney, walks up to the cat, grabs it by the tail, starts pumping it
    up and down like she's planning to fix a flat tire and says to my wife
    "Look Mom, I can jack up the cat's bumm!"  :-)
    
    Jim

    Jim,
    
    All cats go into heat randomly depending on the light cycle, the time
    of the year, and general overall health.  They are all different. 
    But, you can expect that it will be frequent.  
    
    It is very unhealthy for a female cat to continually go into heat.  You
    risk they developing Pyometra which is a very serious uterine
    infection.  Of course, there is also the chance that she will get out,
    because she will keep trying.  
    
    Penelope will be much happier spayed than continually going into heat. 
    And she will not miss motherhood, believe me!!!  Also, many female cats
    will begin to spray or resist using the litter box during heat cycles.  
    
    I really hope you consider spaying her before she has kittens.  She
    really will be much better off.
    
    cin
    

    Hi, You didn't make any errors - WE DID !!!  You should forgive us!
    
    Yes, we do have a few hot issues in this file, as most do.  I think
    it's because we all care so much about the health and well being of
    ALL cats.  
    
    Generally, the rule of thumb is to spay at 6 months before the
    female goes into her first heat.  Neuter a male between 7 and 10
    months (some folks wait a year).  Having a litter is not necessary
    as Cin mentioned.   Your cat is very unhappy when in heat. She
    will be much happier after she is spayed!
    
    There are a few 'interesting topics' in Feline:  spay/neuter,
    indoor/outdoor, breeding nonpurebred cats/unregistered cats,
    declawing, and probably a few I forget for the momemt!
    
    Take care and welcome!  
    
    E.T.
    
    

    
    >Penelope will be much happier spayed than continually going into heat. 
    
    Before we offend Ms. Greene again, let me point out that Cin is
    refering to Penelope the cat, not Penelope the person. :-)
    
    Deb (whose parents' cat is named "Penelope", too)

    Deb, I was hoping that Pennie would get a chuckle out of my note!!!  
    
    So, I can't help it, I'm in a strange mood today!!
    

    Cin,
    
    You're ALWAYS in a strange mood...
    
    
    And for those of you who need to know, I will give you a friend's
    phone number, and you can call him to find out how I am when I
    am in heat.  Heh Heh.  Cin knows him...Cin's the one who -- in
    public -- yelled out, "Hey, Pennie, you didn't tell me he SPRAYS!"
    (or some conversation like that!)

    
    
    After reading this topic with all of the the replies, I can't help
    thinking of my Persian, Frito.  As some of you may know, I had
    purchased a Persian kitten (male) from a (if you want to call her..)
    "breeder" last year.  I fell in love with him at once, he was so
    cute and had big copper eyes.  I paid $200.00 for him and took him
    home.  This was my first cat and I was so excited to finally have
    a kitty all to myself!  I noticed he started sneezing (all the time)
    and took him to the vet.  I found out that Frito had upper respitory
    infection, a heart murmer, conjunctivitis (sp?) and a sprained
    back leg.  I couldn't believe it, I was so pissed (sorry,,let me calm
    down..).  To make a very long and painful story short, after months
    of going to the vet's, sleeping over there, blood work and medicine
    and LOTS OF TLC, my mom found Frito dead in our living room.  I called
    the vet and they asked me if I wanted an autopsy done to find out what
    the cause of death was.  I said "no way" because that poor kitten
    (died at 9 mos.) was in so much pain and unhappy, I just wanted to
    leave him alone and let him rest in peace.  
    Frito had some blood work done a few days before his death and we
    found out what his problem was.  He had a kidney failure (most likely
    the cause of death) and it caused all these other things to happen to
    him.
    
    I honestly believe that this is the result of poor breeding.  I have
    to put a lot of blame on myself though.  I went into the breeders
    home not knowing anything about purebred cats and what to look for
    for a healthy kitten.  I didn't know anything about the different types
    of cats you can get (Show quality, Pet quality).  If I knew this,
    I would have known that Frito was a sick little kitty.  His eyes
    had "gooky stuff" in them and he was sneezing.  I asked the breeder
    why he was sneezing and she said that Frito had just been given a
    bath.  I asked him why he was limping and she said that he was lying
    down and his leg could be asleep (sprained).  I was Gullable with
    a capital "G".  
    
    So I think why the breeders in the Feline notes file get really
    upset with cats not having papers is because these things do 
    happen.  Hundreds of kittens and puppies are suffering because
    of poor breeding and not having a home.  Breeders take their
    breeding very seriously and i'm sure they FLAME when they hear
    stories of breeders like the one I went through that don't 
    really care about the quality of the kittens but rather the
    amount of money that they can get for them. I'm very grateful
    for all the support and advice I received from the last entry
    I put in with the story of Frito.  It helped me out a lot and
    I learned a GREAT DEAL thanks to all the caring breeders and
    cat owners on FELIINE.
    
    Since then, i've gone to the Nashua Humane Society and adopted
    a Gray Tiger Cat which I named "Tigger" and a Calico cat
    named "Callie" (how original).  Even though I love these 2 cats,
    Frito is my favorite.
    
    Thanks for listening!
    Chris_Callie_and_Tigger_too!

    Chris -
      An EXCELLENT note!  Thanks for taking the time to write it.
    
      Please don't berate yourself for your innexperience.  People go
    to breeders because the breeders are supposed to be the "experts".
    That's why we go to doctors, or take our cars to the mechanic.
    Unfortunately there are incompetant and disreputable mechanics 
    and doctors.  It certainly IS desireable to be well informed, but
    don't be too hard on yourself.  Learn from the experience - as you
    obviously have - and pass the information along to others - as you
    are obviously doing.
      Take care
       Nancy DC