Conference misery::feline_v1

    Therese,
    
    I am unfamiliar with the term "Pewter" persians.  Could these be the 
    same as what we refer to as "Silver"???  
    
    If so, I'm working with Silver Exotic Shorthairs, which are a
    Shorthaired version of the persian...
    
    Silver and Chinchilla persians and exotics over here in the states are
    suppose to have brillient "Green" eyes....all other persians/exotics
    are suppose to have "copper (orange)" eyes with exception to the whites
    which may have blue eyes, copper eyes, or a combination of the both.
    
    Looking forward to hearing more info...
    cin
    

    Cin,
    
    From the sounds of the eye color, and the breeding to black, I think
    maybe they gave the name Pewter to the color we call Blue??  What
    do you think?  That would explain the eye color.  Or maybe Smoke?
    
    At any rate, welcome to Feline!  I am a breeder to, but not of
    Persians.  I breed Birmans, most of my lines are imported from the
    UK.
    
    Jo

    Jo,
    
    I thought of that, but I thought that blues were blues
    everywhere....remember the colorbred blues...they used to be around
    years ago.
    
    Maybe the smoke colors, black or blue, could give a pewter color look. 
    I'm most anxious to find out.  
    
    cin
    

    I saw a book last night in Book Corner (I think) entitled "The Ultimate
    Cat Book" which showed all the breeds.  Pewter Persians were shown,
    but I can't even remember what it said.  I didn't buy the book because
    it was $39.95, but I drug Randy over and said it would be a great
    Christmas gift.  
    
    Just my $.02 worth.
    
    Bernice
    Mother_of_Trouble_Becky_&_Velcro

    Therese
    
    I think the colorbred blues are only bred blue to blue to blue to
    blue, and no other colors bred in.  I could very well be wrong,
    as that has happened in the past.  In the Birmans, when we say
    colorbred, we mean color to like color.
    
    Sounds like the pewters are beautiful.  I don't know that we have
    anything similar here.
    
    As for breeding Birmans, they are a very difficult and frustrating
    breed to work with.  You can get cats with perfect type, but unless
    those white feet fall exactly right, the cat is most often sold
    as a pet.  By the same token, you can get perfectly gloved cats
    with lousy type.  
    
    I have no idea what you would get from mating Bubbles to a colorpoint.
    I don't remember if Bubbles was the Black you mentioned.  Okay,
    I will take a shot at it if you will confirm Bubbles color, and
    tell me what color the colorpoint is.
    
    Jo

    Gee, this is getting really interesting!!!  
    
    Jo, your right, Colorbred blues were blues with only blues bred to
    blues on the pedigree.  I think it would be doubtful if you'll see
    these anymore!!!  
    
    Now, as far as the colorpoint breeding, I would think that all your
    kittens would be solid colored unless the pointed gene is in both the
    Sire and Dam's pedigree.  I'm using the genetics I learned when
    breeding Himmy's for this assumption, so it may be off.  
    
    I don't think that we have a color equivalent to the Pewter, at least
    not from the description, I wonder if a Silver Tortie would be close???  
    
    Boy, I'ld love to see a picture of one of these cats.
    
    intrigued by color...
    cin
    

    I had forgotten about the pointed gene being recessive, that is
    true, she probably will only get solids, but what colors?  If the
    queen is a black, let's say carrying blue, and the male is a sealpoint
    carrying bluepoint, then she could get solid blue, black, but what
    else?  Would it be possible to get a self seal from that breeding?
    Cin, you would know better than I.  I only have to deal with seal
    point and blue point as I am not working with the dilute colors
    in Birmans.
    
    Jo

    Jo,
    
    I think you'ld only get solid black or solid blue, unless of course,
    one of them is carrying red or cream...then you could get blue creams
    and torties as well, although the chances of particolors are always
    greater when the red is visible in either the sire or dam.
    
    I think Therese is considering breeding bubbles to the shaded
    chinchilla...only I don't remember what color bubbles is, and lord only
    knows what a chinchilla can give you....
    
    Where's Holly Taylor!!!!!  She knows a little about these weird shaded
    silver colors!!!  ;-0
    
    cin
    

    One of project managers bought a cat book in yesteray for me to
    look at. In the section under long haired cats they had sectioned
    that off into the different breeds. Under the part with shadded
    silvers/chinchillas (sp) they have all the requirements that a judge
    would look when showing the cat, and even the standard for judging
    in the UK, and there was the catagory of PEWETERS. It said, same
    as shaded silver, or chinchillas BUT must have gold or orange eyes.
    
    I am home today with an allergy attack and the name of the book
    is at work, but it definately is on my list of I MUST HAVE. The
    pictures are real photographs and it has other catagories in it
    and shows the big cat show in London and how they have the stewards
    and the person showing is a spectator and in some the judging is
    done off site somewhere and then the cats are shown to the audience.
    (I hope I have that part correct). Facinating book.
    
    My family will be complete WHEN I can have a shaded silver or
    chinchilla, but I am afraid that will not be for awhile. When it
    happens I would like to have an older cat, probably a retired queen.
    Our Ming is so wonderful and we love her so much that I would like
    to try that arrangement again.                               
    
    Barbara

    Therese,
    
    I'ld love for you to send me a picture, which I will happily return. 
    My mailstop is VRO5-2/D6.
    
    cin
    

    Therese,
    
    Don't forget me!  I want a picture too!  My mailstop is WRO1-1/A7.
    
    It must be fun to have litters with all different colors of kittens
    in them.  All my Birmans are born white, and I am almost always
    correct in predicting the ration of blue to seal.  Except for once.
    I bred my blue point queen to my seal point stud who carries blue,
    and was predicting that I would get maybe two blue points in the
    litter.  I was hoping for a blue point girl to keep.  Well, the
    litter was born, and I couldn't tell which was which.  I usually
    know within the first few days who is blue and who is seal, just
    by the tint of their white coats.  Well, for weeks, I kept telling
    my friends that I think I have one blue girl.  I took some pics
    of the litter when they were three weeks old, and low and behold,
    when the photos came back it was quite clear that I had four blue
    points and ONE seal point!!!  I took the pics back to the litter
    to try and find the lone seal point, and couldn't pick her out!
    The only way I knew that I had a litter with four blues was from the
    pictures.  Weirdest thing that has ever happened to me.  It wasn't
    until they were about 5 weeks old that it was easy to see which
    one was seal point.
                                                 
    Curious about what point you were trying to prove about Golden
    Chinchillas when you accidently got into Pewters.  I happen to adore
    goldens.
    
    Jo

    I don't know if you would get tabbies.  I don't know if the silver
    is that dominant.  Since the chinchilla is a form of agouti, I would
    guess that you would get tabbies, but what color, that is a whole
    nuther question!
    
    I know, how 'bout silver patched tabbies!! At least for the girls
    anyway.
    
    Has this breeding taken place yet?  I hope so, don't know if I can
    wait 63 days to find out what colors and patterns you get.  :^)
    
    Jo

    Silver patched tabbies are GORGEOUS!!  I want one from Tony
    when they're born.  Now a silver-patched tabby persian would really
    be a sight!
    

    Gee, I wonder what my Lil will give me.  She will be bred to a
    red Persian boy on November 25thish - she is a brown patched tabby.
    
    Jo, do you believe that if you breed on the 3rd or 4th day of
    the heat you are more likely to get females?  Or is this just
    an old wives tale or does it have something to do with 
    acid or alkaline  ?
    
    Boy, waiting 63 days is a long long time!  Lil is so stubborn,
    she will probably go 67 days!
    
    E.T.

    Elaine,
    
    A Brown Patched Tabby bred to a Red should give us a chance at the
    following colors:
    
    Brown Classic or Mc Tabby, Brown Patched Tabby, Red Solids or Tabbies,
    Torties or Torbies, or solid blacks.  
    
    Also, Lil came from a Solid Red to Brown Classic Tabby Breeding, and
    her Hubby-to-be came from a Tortie to Black breeding, the dilutes in
    both pedigrees are several generations back, so I don't think there
    would be any chance for dilutes.  Of course, Mother Natures been know
    to surprise me before!!!  ;-)  
    
    Well, Jo, what do you think?????  I'm still curious about whether
    breeding later in a females heat would produce more female kittens than
    male.
    
    cin
    

    cin/Jo/ET-
    
    what is the difference between a classic tabby and a tabby (if any).
    also what is a patched tabby?  a calico w/ tabby makrings?
    
    Michele

    re: 25
    
    Michele, from what I understand, a patched tabby is a red/brown/cream/
    beige cat with tabby marking over the patches of color.
    Usually when folks say tabby, by default they mean a classic - when
    folks say McTabby, it's a Mackerel.
    
    E.T.

    Of course, E.T., then there's the spotted tabbies...which only adds to
    the confusion....
    
    cin...

    ugh!  That's all I need - just getting through the birthing will be
    somethin' else.  All I ask out of this first litter is 5 female
    shorthairs!!  and VERY HEALTHY and mom to be VERY HEALTHY and 
    fatter!!
    
    E.T.

    Okay, let me explain a bit about the tabbies...
    
    The Classic Tabby pattern has very noticable stripes in a Bulls-Eye
    pattern on the sides.  The pattern has what is refered to as
    butterflies over the shoulder blades and a double stripe down the
    center of the back.  
    
    
    The Mackrel Tabby has random, unbroken stripes completely around the
    body.  Looks like rings around the body of the cat.
    
    The patched tabby can come in either classic or mackrel pattern.  This
    is a cat that is more than one color with the tabby pattern over both
    of the colors.  These are usually blue-creams (blue-patched) or Torties
    (Torbies) or Brown Patched which is a Brown Tortie or Brown and Red.
    
    And then there's the spotted Tabbies, which look like they have a
    leopard pattern over the entire body.
    
    I can remember when, if you bred persians, and you had a tabby, it was
    like you had some sort of disease!!!  Nobody wanted to have a tabby in
    their lines!!!  Now, it sometimes seems as if there are more tabbies in
    the shows than the solids.
    
    cin...who loves Stripes, no matter which pattern they come in!
    
    

    Michele,
    
    There are three kinds of tabbies... classic, mackeral (sometimes
    shortened to mctabby) and spotted.  I think that classic is the
    dominant pattern, but Cin would have to confirm that.  Classic tabby
    is the most common pattern in American Shorthairs, so if you have
    been to a show and seen a AS, then you have probably seen classic
    tabby.  The pattern has round circles or swirls of the sides of
    the body, sometimes refered to as bulleye's.  There are smaller
    swirls across the shoulder blades, and if you see them from above
    the cat, they look like a butterfly pattern and are called butterflies.
    
    The Mackeral tabby pattern is vertical stripes, fairly close together
    on the body of the cat.
    
    All tabbies have the M on the forehead, and ring on legs and tails.
    They also have "buttons" on the tummy.
    
    A patched tabby is a tabby pattern that also has red or cream splotched
    into the pattern.  On a Calico, if the tabby markings are on the
    red only, that isn't considered true tabby since red throws ghost
    tabby markings.  
    
    As far as getting more females than males if you breed on certain
    days, I have no idea.  Usually, I have been planning a certain breeding
    for so long, the minute the female is in heat, in she goes with
    the male.  I don't waste time. ;^)  I have been getting an unusually
    high number of female kittens, but I contribute that to my male,
    who seems to be throwing a lot of X genes.  I have done some outside
    breedings, and those cats are having greater numbers of females
    than males too. 
    
    Kyrielle just had her litter the other night, two girls and two
    boys, born during game three of the world series.  The kittens were
    pure white at birth, but will probably be seal points.  The queen
    carries blue, and the sire is of my breeding, but we don't know
    if he carries blue or not.  Anyway, no matter their color, they
    are adorable, and healthy.
    
    So E.T., you didn't tell us if the exotic carries the longhair gene.
    Shall we try to predict which color will have the longhair, and
    which colors will have the shorthair too??
    
    Jo

    re: 27
    
    Gee, I never would have guessed that Cin.  Tiger Stripes, Just Plain
    Stripes, STriped P.J.'s, etc. etc. etc. etc.
    
    Stripes are GREATS with me too as long as they are classic stripes
    and there is red and brown on the cat somewhere!
    Lots of that deep mahogony RED.
    Could that be why I bought Lil, just because she has classic stripes
    deep red, and she is a brown patched tabby with a wonderful face,
    a bratty fresh disposition, huge eyes, etc etc etc...

    re: last few
    
    thanks...I think.... %*}
    
    I never realized what I thought was a tabby was a Mc Tabby...cute!
    I think I can visualize a patched tabby...but a spotted one?????
    I'll have to look more closely at the next show.
    
    M 

    Yes, the Exotic carries both longhair and shorthair gene.  But,
    breeding to a red persian will certainly give me some longhairs
    unfortunately!!  If you breed shorthair to shorthair for 5
    generations, you are pretty sure to breed out the longhair gene.
    The longhair gene is dominant and the shorthair gene is recessive.
    
    I wish we could predict the colors being shorthair!!  That would
    be fun - I can hardly wait!!

    Amazing, you ask one question, and simultaneously get three answers!
    I guess we have just about covered the tabby thing.  But, ET still
    hasn't told us if Lil carries the longhair gene?
    
    E.T., just send Lil over to my house for the birthing, Kyrielle
    and Lyscentia will show her what to do.  Both of them have tricked
    me into leaving them so that they can have their babies in peace,
    without me running around like a nervous parent.  Kyrielle had her
    kittens in my closet while I was watching the ballgame.  Nice of
    her to let me know that it was time! :^)
    
    Of course, Laci is worried to death now, she has been seen wandering
    around the house looking very confused, muttering "but I don't want
    to have to have my babies in the closet all by myself!!"  Kyrielle's
    reaction "chicken!!".
    
    Jo

    ET, your breeding of Lil to the persian is similar to my breeding
    of my blue queen to a male carrying blue.  You have a chance of getting
    50% shorthairs, just like I had a chance of getting 50% blues.
    Well, I had a litter of 5 kittens, and 4 of them were blue, so don't
    worry about it.  You will get some shorthairs, and maybe more than
    you expect.  Sometimes genetics is just a roll of the dice.
                    
    Jo
    

    That's it exactly with Exotics.  It's 50% skill ... as in putting the
    right two cats together... and 50% luck ... as in the right kittens
    having the short hair!!!  
    
    Of course, it always seems like it's the pets that are SH, and the
    show quality type that get the LH...
    
    Ahhhhh....the challenge!!!!  
    
    cin
    
    

    But Jo, I did tell you - in .31 - Exotics carry both the LH and the
    SH gene.  
    
    As to the birthing, I told Cindy's husband Dave, that Cindy
    will have to move in to my house from day 62 until K-day 
    (that's kitten day) - if I remember correctly, he said he
    didn't mind!!!!!!!  (much) I have a feeling we will be
    on the phone during the whole thing.
    
    I think I'm putting the cart before the horse here - I think
    that firstly Lil needs to go into heat, then be pleasant and
    willing with the little red boy, then I'll worry about birthin'
    kittens!!
    
    I'm psyched !!

re: .31

>		      If you breed shorthair to shorthair for 5
>    generations, you are pretty sure to breed out the longhair gene.
>    The longhair gene is dominant and the shorthair gene is recessive.

The shorthair gene is dominant.

If you breed a longhair to a longhair, you get all longhairs.

If you breed a longhair to a shorthair(carrying no longhair), you get all 
shorthairs carrying longhair.

If you breed a shorthair(carrying longhair) to a shorthair(carrying 
longhair), statistically, you'll get 50% shorthair(carrying longhair), 25% 
longhair, and 25% shorthair(carrying no longhair).

5 generations isn't going to tell you anything; since each cat either *is* 
or *is not* carrying the gene.  If you want to know whether a shorthair is
carrying longhair, you'd test-breed it to a longhair.  Statistically, if
the shorthair *is* carrying longhair, 50% of the kittens will have long
hair.  One longhair kitten proves it; however, all shorthair kittens
doesn't *disprove* it, but the more shorthair kittens you get(without 
getting a longhair), the more unlikely it would be.  For example, producing
five shorthair kittens would give you a confidence level of 31/32; you'd be
about 97% sure that the shorthair wasn't carrying longhair.  Eight kittens 
(two average litters; one large litter) brings this up to 255/256, or about
99.6%. 

Ray

    re: Patch Tabbies -  HEY you guys left out one of the most beautiful
    of the patch tabbies - SILVER patch tabby.  That's what I want out
    of Dundee-mommy-cat's litter!  
      Nancy DC

    Nancy,
    
    I will have to count my two cats tomorrow .... if Bill gets mugged on
    the way to Maine, remember I DO have your description .......
    
    This is going to a loooooooooong 33 hours.
    
    cf

    re: .38  Not to worry Cathy.  Dundee-mommy-cat just had 6 kittens
    on 10/29 - 3 male, 3 female.  A big litter for her.  There's at
    least one silver patch tabby in the group.  Now we wait for
    another 2.5 - 3.5 weeks  to see who's going to fold.
    
      Nancy DC who can wait for her second fold.  
    

    glad to hear it.
    
    I will be taking a roll of film this afternoon, but at 400 asa I may
    not get much.  I have some 1000 that I will have to take probably over
    the weekend as tomorrow is supposed to be rain.  I have terrible luck
    with a flash so go with natural lighting as much as possible.
    
    Now we are down to 8 hours - no, make that 7 hours 50 minutes before
    they arrive.... who me, I'm not anxious.
    
    They are going to be so much bigger that I expect that there will  be
    many changes.  the silver one will be snowy and the other one is not
    100% named yet.
    
    The hardest part will to partially ignore them making a great fuss over
    Misty as she is the one most likely to be jealous so that she will
    reallize that the newcommers will not be taking ALL the love, that
    thereis enough caring for all.
    
    Cathy

    re: .40 (?) Which James Bond film??  I'll rent it and watch for
    the cat.
      Nancy DC

    Jo,
    
    I will get Cindy to pass the photograph on to you It isn't a marvelous
    one but gives you an idea of what they look like. I will try to
    take some more and send those on eventually.
    The point I was trying to point out that the Golden Chinchilla was
    not pure bred white chinchilla to white chinchilla at some time
    I was convinced that cream our brown tabby had been added to the
    line.
    What I got from mating blue/cream to Chinchilla was 5 kittens -
    1 silver shaded (green eyes)
    1 shaded cream cameo (orange eyes)
    2 pewters (orange eyes)
    1 Kitten with silver and gold on the same coat (emerald green eyes)
    
    I was unable to keep the silver and gold kitten as I we were on
    alert to go to the Falkland Islands but I let her go to a couple
    who would breed on with her.
    
    Now the story gets interesting. All four paw pads were solid black
    and we did not know what to register her as but unfortunately at
    1year old she developed a smudge of pink between the claws and had
    to be registered as a tortie cameo.The couple who had her from me
    then rescued a black persian male which had just been neutered and did
    not realise they can still be fertile for three weeks. The proverbial 
    happened and they ended up with six kittens.three tortoishell
    females,1 shaded cream cameo,1 full cream,and a beautiful blue
    smoke.Talk about beginners luck.All kittens had orange eyes and the
    blue smoke was superb.If you are interested in genetics perhaps we
    should get going on my Ryland sheep.
     

    The Bond films were my first introduction to Silver Shaded/Chinchilla
    persians. I wondered if the makeup man had made up their eyes and
    sprayed paint on their fur. (Boy, was I ignorant then of the different
    breeds of cats).
    
    The allergies are much better now, but will be great when we get
    lots of snow.
    
    If you would like to include me in the picture loop I would love
    to see any of your babies.
    
    Regards,
    Barbara

    I just bought the "Ultimate Cat Book," discussed in an earlier
    note and it has a full, two page layout on Pewter Persians.  Gorgeous
    cats!  This entire book is just chock full of rich, colorful
    photographs of cat breeds, including one of a new breed called a
    Burmilla, which is a cross between a Burmese and Chinchilla Persian.
    It is a shorthaired cat and very, very, pretty.  I haven't been
    able to put this book down since buying it last Saturday.  Although
    a bit expensive ($30), it's well worth the price.
    
    --Roberta
    
    

    Roberta,
    
    Will you bring it with you to the Marlboro Cat show???  I'ld love to
    take a quick look at it.
    
    thanks
    cin
    

    Sure, Cin.  As long as you bring me curtains again :^) !!  I haven't
    received my order yet from Village Stitching and time is getting
    close!  I'll let you know if I get them before then.
    
    Thanks!
    Roberta
    

    Sure, Roberta, anytime....
    
    Just let me know if you need them.  
    
    cin...
    

    It is called "The Ultimate Cat Book" by David Taylor.  It is a large,
    hardcover book with a royal blue jacket.  The jacket displays a
    beautiful picture of a sealpoint Himalayan.
    

     <<< Note 2983.54 by FSHQA1::RKAGNO "A Cat Makes a Purrfect Friend" >>>

    It is called "The Ultimate Cat Book" by David Taylor.  It is a large,
    hardcover book with a royal blue jacket.  The jacket displays a
    beautiful picture of a sealpoint Himalayan.
    

Thanks I will start looking for the book.
Therese

    Well, I got the pictures of Therese's Pewter Persian.  They are pretty
    cats...look similar to our Shaded Silver Persians only with Copper
    eyes.  
    
    Therese, your kitties looked a little less extreme than what we usually
    see here...Can you tell me, are the kitties in the pictures considered
    show quality, or breeder quality???  I'm just trying to get a feel for
    the differences in the persian breed from one side of the pond to the
    other.  
    
    Someday I'ld love to go to a cat show in another country....not
    including Canada of course....we've been there before!!!
    
    cin
    

    
    I know this won't help Therese, but I saw a few copies of "The Ultimate
    Cat Book" at the Bedford (NH) Mall just yesterday, at $29.95.  The pics
    in this book are *gorgeous*!  If I hadn't already bought myself a few
    presents . . . :^}
    
    

    I looked for the book at the National at Olympia but it wasn't there.I
    am still looking then I am going to hint like mad as it is my birthday
    at the end of the month.I'll need something to cheer me up because of