Conference misery::feline_v1

    Fran,
    
    Your note really hit home for me.  I have the same situation with
    two of my housecats, Monroe and Winston.  Monroe is about 7 and
    Winston is about 5.  They are not crazy about the number of other
    cats we have (I breed Birmans), and they are definitely not crazy
    about kittens.  As a result, they spend all their time in one room
    of my house, my office.
    
    Now, I feel terribly guilty about them not taking advantage of the
    whole house, but everytime I decide to try and place them I lose
    my mind.  I once had someone coming over to see Winston, I went
    to get him to comb him and clean him up and ended up balling my
    eyes out.  My husband called the man back and asked him not to come.
    
    I think that they deserve to have a house where they can roam freely
    from room to room without being afraid of running into a bunch of
    other cats, or having a kitten chase them or bite their tails. 
    But, I can't seem to let go.  Other people have told me that I
    shouldn't worry about them so much since they are happy, healthy,
    and much better off with me than if they were strays outside, or
    living out their lives in a no kill shelter (lots of cats are in
    that position).  I want more than that for them, but I can't give
    it to them in my house, and can't seem to let them go.
    
    So, you see, I am not a good person to help you with this since
    I am in the same position.  Maybe others in the file can help both
    of us.
    
    Jo

    I hope someone can help us out too, Jo.  The situation really does
    a number on me from time to time..
    
    Fran
    
    
    

    Fran, are your cats all altered?  If not, that might help to calm
    things down.
    

hi Karen,
    
    yes, they are all altered. Had that done when they were little.
    calmed everone down except Lilly...she is extrememly affectionate
    but if you pet her more than a few seconds her purrs sound more
    like growls and she gets bushy tailed. and if another cat female)
    happens to be nearby there have been times when she shrieks and
    spits and can be very dangerous if she happens to be on
    your lap or if you are holding her.  Yet when themales are around
    she is as good as gold.
    
    Fran
    
    

    Lilly sounds a lot like Holly.  Except she is rather territorial towards
    all cats.  I put a figurative cold facecloth over my face and leave them 
    alone as long as no one is actually getting hurt.  I think some of
    what's going on is getting Mom's attention.
    
    Holly reminds me of Elizabeth I when she does this.....
    
    

    unfortunatly there have been some serious cat fights, screaming,
    hissing and scratching whenever Lilly has manged to corner Misha
    or Jemma or worse when they should simply run into each other
    unexpectadly rounding a corner. this is why we have had to
    separate them.
    
    Fran
    
    

    I do what Karen does, I pretend not to notice.  Usually, there is
    more noise than actual damage.  And no one has ever gotten hurt.
    Monroe and Winston don't get into fights, but the girls will fight
    for status from time to time.  That happens in households with whole
    cats.  Everyone's status changes when they are pregnant, in season,
    or nursing kittens.  The heirarchy has to be worked out all over
    again.
    
    Monroe and Winston are wimps, if they venture out, then see a cat
    that they don't know well, they run like the dickens back to their
    room.  They are quite content to huddle together in the cat bed
    and talk about their "close call".
    
    Jo
    

    the cat fights we have had have so far not ended in physical hamr
    to the cats, it is however, my husband or myself who have ended
    up scratched. the fights will happen unexpectadly and most
    of the time it seems to be for status regarding us, meaning
    whoever is sitting near us or something will suddenly pounce
    on any other cat that comes over for attention. generally
    there is just hissing; but with Lilly it get down right
    viscious.  Vets we have brought her to say she has perhaps mixed
    up
    hormones and that she is more Tom than female. However another
    two vets say she is just natuarlly aggressive. But to us she seems
    more ont the Defensive...
    
      heavens..I am soooo confused about this kitty :-(((
     

    Perhaps ovaban would help.  I would suggest you ask your vet
    if s/he can prescribe anything that would help calm Lilly down.
      Nancy DC
    

    I'm not sure if ovaban is something we already tried. there were
    two perscriptions which were meant to even up the possible hormone
    imbalance but they had an odd effect on her being that she turned
    into a puddle literally slithering around similar to a catnip
    high. the other medication made her starry eyed and confused.  
    the best we found was a quarter tab of valium whenever she got
    really hyper and she just mellowed out. but we are worried about
    giving her this too frequently so we used it sparingly but we
    could only give it to her when she showed signs of freaking out
    which solved very little as the damage was already done.
    we tried letting her downstairs again last night..but within
    a half an hour she was at it again....
    
    

    I'm with Nancy.  I have read so much in this notes file about the
    positive effects of Ovaban in situations like this.  Please do try it. 
    It was so nice reading the base note and seeing how much you love and
    want to keep Lilly.
    
    Sandi mom to THUNDER, LIGHTNING, STORM and DEJAVU too
    
    

    Sure! I'm willing to try it for her! could you tell me just a bit
    as to what it does? is it a hormone type medication? is it new
    because I'm surprised after six vets no one recommended it yet;
    I called my husband and he does not recall Ovaban as one of the
    prescriptions.
    I would like to know a bit about it before going to the new vet
    we have so that I sound like I know what I am talking about.
    thank you
    Fran
    

    All I know about it Fran is that its a female hormone that is some-
    times used with neutered males that continue to spray.  The breeders
    would know more about it than I.
      You could always call your vet and ask him/her about it.  Say
    someone mentioned it to you and would it be appropriate for Lilly.
    My vet is usually very happy to explain things to me.
      Nancy DC
    

    Possibly no vet reccommended it because it is has not been "approved" for
    use in cats, or at least 1.5 years ago it wasn't and I don't think
    that it yet recieved USDA approval. I found that it worked real
    well on Argus and there has been a lot of literature about it's
    use on cats.
    
    Most vets have it because it has been approved for dogs.
    
    Deb

    HI Nancy!
    thanks. a female hormone may very well be what she needs as the
    vets at least agreed that she was territorial in a way closer
    to a male.  If that's the case, then the poor thing must be
    mixed up. It rminds me of the behavior I have seen in 
    domestic dog/wolf mix where as pat of the animal wants to be
    freindly and the other part is defensive.
    Lilly is due for a check up in ten days. I will talk to the vet
    about the use of ovaban for her and will enter here the results.
    
    thank you all again for your concern for my Lilly!
    
    Fran
    
    

    re .14
    hi! our notes must have crossed as I just read yours about the
    USDA approval for cats..I will asked the vet about it..if it
    works well..I hope I can get it for her..
    
    Fran
    
    

    How are you getting scratched?  Are you actively trying to break up
    the fight, or are you clobbered because the fights start with one cat
    in your lap or some such?  If the former, the fix is easy:  intervene
    from a distance by flicking a little water or some such.
    

    I didn't know it hadn't been approved yet.  Another piece of
    info to store away.  Let us know how you make out with Lilly.
    

    We went through all of Lilly's old perscriptions and lo and behold
    two years ago we had one for Ovaban - in fact it was the first one
    that was tried on her. Unfortunatly it didn't work with her at
    all so then a few other things were tried.
    
    re.17  sometimes the scratching takes place when, for exampple we
    
    are sitting at the couch and Lilly and whoever she's after come
    charging right across our laps.  A couple of times we intervened
    but learned our lesson on that one as my husband got an awful
    gash on his hand the last time.  And other times she may be sitting
    on your lap (which is no longer allowed) because out of the
    blue she'll spot a cat and dig her claws into your leg; but still
    a lot of times she will ignore the other cats.
    
    It's the unpredictablity of the situation that led us to isolate
    her to the upstairs most of the time.
    
    
    Fran
    
    

Cats can take a LOOOONG time to adjust to situations we have to inflict on
them....but they will eventually adjust.  If they are loved, healthy, and
safe from harm, then they can stand to hiss and puff up occasionally....and
I can tell ya, even the touchiest of cats will occasionally enjoy the play
that another cat can provide.  I think you have to do what you can and then
tell your furry friends, "this has to be this way, kiddo, so you have to
figure out a way to get along".....I have done this and, after 1.5 years of
Nicky acting out his desire that Hannah go away by losing weight and being
a very picky eater, he has finally accepted her presence and is beginning
to gain some weight again...I couldn't give up Nick and I couldn't give
up Hannah, so they had to adjust.

    In the mean time I suggest you start trimming claws regularly.
      Good luck.
       Nancy DC

    I have been giving this a lot of thought and realize that by
    interceding in these spites when she gets defensive Lilly may
    very well be becoming used to the idea that whenever there is
    someone there she doesn't particualry care for well then just yell
    shriek etc and mommy or daddy will make the mean old other kitty
    go away.
    
    uh oh..maybe me and my husband have a behavior problem :-)))
    
    now I just gotta figure out how to change this without one of the
    other cats having to be set up so to speak....
    
    sigh..cats..can't always live with 'em...can't live without 'em..
    
    Fran
    
    

    I wear a terrycloth bathrobe a lot at home;  claws can't get
    thru it.  (Holly likes to jump up onto my shoulders
    unexpectedly....)
    

    we are thinking of ordering his and hers suits of armor to protect
    us from Lillith the Hun!
    
    :-)))
    
    Fran
    
    

Suggested tactic:

Allow all cats access to the room you like to sit in.  Get your CAT
(cat adjustment tool - long distance sprayer filled with cold water)
and sit back....when the scrabbling starts, hit both offenders with
a good dose of water - BOTH offenders, regardless of who started what.
They hate that....it will get better pronto.

Another thing that helps alot - get all cats bathed at the same time,
using the same shampoo...they operate by smell mostly and the same
smell will make it much easier to accept the "other".

Some hassling has to happen....it will happen until they decide who
is in what position in the pecking order - keep nails trimmed and
ONLY interfere when you cannot stand it anymore - then use the CAT.

NEVER NEVER NEVER put hands or feet in the middle of a cat fight!    
You can cause worse damage to all parties involved that way...the
cats have thick fur to protect their skin from nails and teeth...you
don't.

    All of the preceding suggestions were good ones, but bathing could
    be either expensive or a hassle. I've found that if I give everybody
    a good combing after coating the comb with grooming spray, which has
    very heavy lanolin smell (you'll think that cats were in a barber shop)
    you'll have the effect of everyone smelling the same.
    
    Deb 

    I was gonna start reintroducing them one by one again.  I will
    try that and the scent idea too.  I'm a bit uneasy about the squirt
    gun regarding Lilly as I'm wondering if it wouldn't make her more
    fearful.
    
    they (my gang) have been establishing a pecking order for four years
    now..and unfortuantly the jury is still out on the decision :-((
    
    Fran
    

    Fran's cats and mine must have gone to the same school.
    We have had Mocha and Ming for a year now and they still
    are fighting to see who's "king of the hill". Sometimes
    I think I will get rid of them and be animaless but of 
    course that's just an idle threat. (Isn't it Roberta?)
    
    I keep hoping some day peace will reign in our house and then
    when that silver shaded persian comes along, our door will be
    open for it. I drool every times I see one. I could have cat
    napped the one from the TICA show in Nashua last weekend. What
    a beauty.
    
    Back to perservering and squirting.
    
    Barbara
    

    well, we tried bringing Lilly down stairs the past couple of
    nights and reintriduce her one by one. First night she was stubborn
    and no waty would come down. last night well..
    
                  HISS! WHAM! SPAT! SPIT! MEOOOOOWWEEEE!
    
    OH WELL...AT FIRST YOU DON'T SUCCEED....
    
    FRAN
    

    You know what they say Fran, Patience is a virtue.  (Guess you'll
    get nominated for sainthood!)
      Nancy DC
    

    Sainthood!!  hmm...complete with holy card I hope :-)))
     St Fran of the Fighting Felines....picture of arms outstretched
    holding back one bristle-tailed Lilly the other side four arched
    back hissing kitties..back reads: alas, fran of the fighting felines.
    save us from fighting feline foes faithfully.. Amen..Hiss..MEOW!
    
              :-))))
    
    Humbly yours,
    Fran
    

    re: .31  What an image!

    re. 32  ... but I wonder what the Pope will think about it ?
    maybe I should let Lilly stay at the Vatican for week with
    my other four and maybe that will plead my case :-)))
    
    p.s  me and Lilly took a nap this weekend together..and all was
    all sweetness and purrs!!
       then she went downstairs and beat up her brother...!!!
                        AAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!
    
    

    HI!
    just a little update on Lilly. Took her to a new vet yesterday and
    she came out as healthy as can be.  This vet's opinion is similar
    to what we have heard before that she is hyper-sensitve to her
    surroundings and finds it difficult to differentiate between
    happiness and fear and tends to get over stimulated particualry
    around the change of seasons.
    He suggested declawing so that if she has an unexpected fit she
    will at least not harm anyone on her way.
    Lilly is five and 1/2 years old...is declawing a sensible alternative
    and if so is she too old for this regarding how well she will
    heal up. As this and other vet's have suggested it may be a 
    viable alternative to the situation because if there are any future
    children in the houshold Lilly's behavior could cause serious injury
    to toddlers.  I do agree with this by living with her and her
    unexpected fits.
    
    Does anyone know of successful declawing for an older cat and if
    so does this sound like a viable solution to the Lilly delmena,..
    
    We are planning on one day having children and we do share a very
    real fear of what can happen to a toddler if he or she should happen
    to be at the right place at the wrong time.
    
    thank you,
    Fran
    
    

    Fran,
     I'm sure you know that generally I disagree with declawing.
    However, in your situation I think you have a good reason to
    consider this alternative.  I would be sure that you've exhausted
    other options first tho.  I think its important that you know
    that you tried everthing else first and once you've made the
    decision be comfortable with it.
    
    re: surgery on older cats - well, I've never had a cat declawed,
    but Bumpy-tail had hernia surgery at age 10.  She came through
    it all with flying colors and healed up quickly.  If that's
    any indication, I'd say a 5 1/2 yr old would handle it all
    just fine.  
      My vet always does a blood test 2 wks or less prior to the
    surgery.  He says that cats are prone to anemia and that when
    you mix anemia and anesthesia you can have trouble.  I suggest
    you ask your vet about this if you are worried.
      Good luck
       Nancy DC
    

    Another thing to consider.  Since Lilly is a bit on the aggressive
    side, declawing her may cause more trouble.  Right now, she uses
    her claws to warn you when you are making her angry, if you take
    those claws away, there goes the early warning system.  This could
    frustrate her, and cause her to become a biter.  Cat bites can be
    much more serious than cat scratches since they are puncture wounds
    and can become easily infected.  They are also very painful.
    
    Jo

    re.36  oh dear, I didn't think about the teeth :-{{{
    
    re .35.  we really have tried multiple alternatives..eleven 
    differnt vets including this recent one :-((
    
    I hate to admit it..but I'm worn out on this problem..five years
    is a long time and if we could only see a light at the end of
    the tunnel it might make it easier.
    
    well, I'll give it a lot of thought; until then  (sobs! and more
    sobs :-(((((  )
    
    signed
    pooped out in Lowell
    
    Fran
    
    

    I don't recollect from the previous 37 replies if this has
    been suggested before, but what about
    the possibility of a cat tranquilizer in tiny doses for awhile?
    

    re. 38
    hi. we do have those for her and an open subscription..they do work
    well, however I was afraid she could actually get addicted to them..
    I don't know if that might happen or in small doses if it is safe..
    
    Fran
    
    

Tranquilizers can cause damage to internal organs if I remember correctly -
if taken over long periods of time....at any rate, my vet does not accept
them as an alternative for "cronic" behavior problems due to physical health
issues.  You should discuss this with your vet - I just don't remember
enough about what was said when we discussed Hannah's tendency to "strike
out" HARD with her claws - at other cats, people, etc.  I elected to declaw
rather than give up the scooter (my nickname for her) and, IN THIS CASE,
she did not take up biting....she doesn't seem to know she doesn't have
claws and still strikes out with her paw....it is satisfying to her because
the cats and the dog still cringe away from the paw - giving her the
satisfaction of having control of the situation, but giving me the satisfaction
of having my other animals NOT having scratched eyes, ears, etc. getting
infected.  My vet removed only the claw, no part of the paw was taken...
Hannah still attacks furniture and still strikes out at me when she wants
me to stop brushing her or whatever.  In our case, it was a good solution
to a bad problem.
    

    re .40
    thank you for your input on the Lilly delemna!  we are leaning towards
    having her declawed as we monitored her behavior this weekend to
    take a good look at when or how she uses her claws.  There are
    two ways she does it. She uses them to dig into whatever is under
    her at the moment she gets upset and then to swipe at the others
    but more with a defensive posture than aggressive.  The others in
    turn, including the pup get the message not tom come close and
    move back in a similar defensive stance. Seems Lilly made her
    point over the years for the others to back off. However, if they
    are not looking at her and she is behind them she will swipe
    at them aggressively and this is what has cause some injury to
    the others who in turn will do an about face and although they
    back off Lilly starts in with the claws and making contact
    with delicate eyes and noses.  The kitty, in short, is slap happy
    and even with well trimed claws she has hurt the others at times.
    
    we have exhausted all sort of means to prevent this and we are now
    the ones backed off in a defensive position on what to do about
    it all.  we are going to check around for a vet we feel comfortable
    to perform the operation..
    
    we live in the Lowell area... can anyone recommned a vet for such
    an operation...I know many are opposed to such an operation and
    we have obviously felt that way too as none of our cats are
    declawed, but unfortuanalty Lilly has hurt people and critters
    when she panics and we feel it may help to put a stop to the
    injuries by having the weapons removed.
    
    Fran
    
    

    re: 40
    
    If you are in Lowell, you are not too far from Hudson NH,
    and Countryside Animal Hospital on Route 102.  Dr. Brody
    is the BEST in New England, as far as I'm concerned!!
    I would recommend him highly.  603-889-8269.
    
    E.T.

    I would take E.T.'s recommendation in a minute.  People who have
    as many cats as she does always know a good vet!!
    
    I have even told some of my east coast kitten buyers to contact
    E.T. for the name of a good vet.
    
    Jo

    Thanks, Jo.  
    
    I can't say enough positive things about Dr. Brody and his staff.
    Over the past 25 years, I have tried many different vets in the
    Lowell, Chelmsford, Westford, Nashua, area.  I think that each
    one I found was better than the last, BUT, I have now been with
    Dr. Brody for almost 3 years.  His diagnostic abilities compare
    to none.  He probably should be with a teaching university or
    college - but, I'm very glad he is here in Hudson New Hampshire.
    I travel a total of 60 miles round trip to have him see my cats.
    I have even tried two vets closer to my home in Candia, both of
    which are good, BUTTTTT, I still go back to Dr. Brody.  I trust
    him, trust his staff, trust his judgement, he listens to me and
    trusts me to know my animals and their problems and behavior.
    When I say that an animal can't handle a type of medication, he
    searaches until he comes up with something this particular animal
    CAN handle.  Same when one of my kids or my friend's kids turn up
    with some strange symptoms - he doesn't rest until he figures out
    exactly what is wrong and exactly how to treat it.  
    You can eat of the floors and surfaces throughout the entire hospital.
    When I bring a kid in for surgery, they let me put the cat in the
    cage, and let me make the cage and cat comfortable and then stay
    with the cat as long as I want to until the cat feels secure.  
    A real warning to me is when a hospital won't let me in the "back
    room" - when that happens, I WALK and WALK FAST out the door!  I
    have to know where my cat is going to spending time and in what
    kind of circumstances - clean or whatever.
    
    Sorry to run on, but I just feel so lucky and secure in having 
    the luxury of a vet that I can depend on - all I have to call
    any time - especially the time he was there for me and my
    Pashenka at 12 midnight Saturday night.  He saved my red boy's
    life that night!!  He was only about 3 months old!  
    
    E.T.
    

    THEN DR BRODY IT IS!!  (lucky name too, my puppy's name is Brodey!):-)
    
    I will have him check her out and discuss the declawing with him
    which will make an even dozen in vet opinions - eek! but worth
    it if we are comfortable all around in our decision which has
    been quite difficult.  If it is a go on the declawing then it
    will have to be next month as the puppy is due for his neutering
    opeeration (ooch!)  Surprising enough Lilly ignores him; it's the
    feline gang that causes bushy tail.
    
    I cannot thank you all enough for your inputs and advice.  It
    helped so much to be able to talk it out and to have people
    understand how we love Lilly so much and have done so much so
    that we can keep her home with us.  A lot of people were telling
    us we were crazy and the only alternative was euthenasia as they
    said "well it's not like she's your kid or something"  That's
    just the point they don't understand; lilly a the others "are"
    family.  Besides I have several quirky human relatives and I
    wouldn't euthenize them; so how could we do it to our quirky
    baby kitty.
    
    I will let you know how it works out for her; as I mentioned
    we won't be able to do much until next month but I'll still
    be here at FEline armed with claw clippers until then..
    
    again, thanks and God bless
    
    Fran
    
    

    Fran,
    
    I just reread some the notes (your replies) - I, too, would 
    suggest trying the Cat Adjustment Tool - I have been using 
    it my my brats for a couple of weeks - Fran, I have to admit,
    it's the most fun I've had in a long long long long time!
    The feeling of POWER.  I, for the first time since I"ve been
    owned by cats, am in control when I hold that bottle - and
    boy, do they KNOW IT!!!  I do have a bunch of cats, and when
    most folks come to the house they always say how well behaved
    the kids are, but there are times I would like to open the back
    door and boot them all out!  The CAT has really helped -
    try it for a couple of weeks - you may be surprised!
    
    E.T.

    Hi E.T.!
    
    ok. as a mentioned we wouldn't have the money to bring Lilly to
    the vet for at least another month so meanwhile would be a good
    time to try the CAT. I'm wondering though, if Lilly acts up
    should we CAT-alyze her or the other cat to teach them to simply
    stay clear of her.  I am wondering if the CAT may antagonize LIlly.
    
    I guess what I mean is, what message does the CAT give to the cat;
    is it saying stop picking on the other cats, or stop whatever your
    doing; ....uh oh...I'm confused again....:-(((
    
    Feebly yours,
    Fran
    
    

    Hi yourself!
    
    I go for the one that is causing the noise.  If two are really
    getting it on equally, I let them both have it!!  She needs to
    learn that her behavior is unacceptable.  So do your other cats
    if they are being naughty.  I can pretty much guarantee that
    she WON'T like it - but, it may slow her down.  She also needs
    to see you disicplining the others - so she knows you are not
    just picking on her.  There seem to be 3 or 4 kids in my house
    that are always a little on the damp side!!!!  I won't incriminate
    or name them - they would be embarrassed of course, but, if you
    are ever at my house, and pick up a kid and that kid is a little
    damp, you will know why !!  I sure helps - I haven't yelled at
    anyone is a couple of weeks !!
    
    E.T.

    re:  keeping Lilly - You love her enough to know that she's not
    just a "nasty cat", or mean, she's scared.  Her reactions are for
    a reason other than pure meanness.  
      I've always found that those things that were most difficult
    for me to handle and which I did find a way to handle comfortably
    are also those things I find most rewarding and most meaningful
    to me.   
      And Lilly is a FFM....Feline Family Member  :-)

    I always spray all cats involved in the ruckus, keeps the others
    from setting the "nasty" one up.
    
    E.T. - I drive an hour each way to my vet in Fremont, for the same
    reasons that you listed.  I wouldn't have it any other way.
    
    Jo

    Nancy, you are right on the mark in saying that Lilly is not a
    mean cat.  She is full of cuddles and kisses when she feels ok.
    There have been times when I have taken a nap and woke up to find
    her cuddled beside me purring and purring. that for certain is
    a sign that she has no mean streak. 
    
    E.T.  I have just talked with my husband on the phone and we are
    going to try the CAT for a couple of months first, by then
    we may see results one way or another..and by then she and the rest
    of the gang will be due for their monthly checkups so we will bring
    her to Dr. Brody then.   We know this will be one drip-dry kitty;
    maybe she'll be needing a raincoat by Christmas :-))
    
    Fran
    
    

    sigh - I really wish Brody was closer!  But, I wouldn't trust any
    of the kids serious problems with ANYONE else.
    
    

    ha ha!  I have a little calico girl that is usually in the
    drying process!  All I have to do now, is hold the bottle up
    and aim it at her - she stares at me for about 5 seconds, then
    runs like crazy!  Of course, there are 2 cats in the house that
    will NEVER be squirted no matter what they do!!!  Bet you all 
    can't guess which two they are !!  Hint:  2 little girls.
    
    E.T.

    Hmmmm, let me see, Katenka Dolly Zhivagocat, and Tiger Lilly???
    
    Jo

    Well I can make a good guess on one because it seems that
    all of Cindy's cats have a water fetish!  I can't fill the
    teapot without "maaaa"  "maaaa"  :-)  
    
    And I can guess that the other one has earned a lifetime of
    privileges for being such a good show kitty  :-)
      Nancy DC

    re: 54 & 55
    
    Gooood guesses!  Those are them!  The ladies of the hour.  You are
    right Nancy.  TenkaBabies and I spent quite a lot of time together
    for 22 consecutive months - she has earned lots of special time
    and privileges for life.
    
    As for Lil, all she had to do was show up in my house - it was instant
    special.  She really is something else.  A very very sweet special
    baby girl, and will be for a long long lifetime!!
    
    Lil is getting to be quite the show girl - she steps out of her
    benching cage, walks on to her grooming table, sits and watches
    the gate go by, plays, and just looks cute.  When she feels like
    having a drink or a snack, she walks back over to the door of
    her cage and steps in her cage, with a look at me like, "don't
    help me, I can do it all by my self!"  She is really something -
    a cuddly brown baby bear (with a 'face', flat, but a face!!)
    
    E.T.

    Lilly's whiskers are wet! and her tail! and her behind! 
    
    sigh..now she won't cme out from under the bed....:-((
    
    
    

    Don't worry, she will.  Keep it up...you've got to "out stubborn"
    her.
      Not an easy feat...
       Nancy "Darn Stubborn" DC

    Gee, your aim sounds interesting!  I try to aim at their side, I
    think.  Or whichever body part I can reach with the stream! 
    I use a plant sprayer bottle,
    with the long-range stream!  My aim is really getting to be 
    something else!  AS you can tell, I am really quite proud of
    my accomplishment with this CAT.  I'm so amazed that the silly
    thing works, that I want to practice all the time.  I can hardly
    wait until one of the hairbags misbehaves.  Trouble is now, that
    the silly cats know that they are going to 'get it', so  I think
    that they think twice before messin' around.   Last night I picked
    Pashenka up and stroked his side, and said, Yuk, you're WET!  
    Vikkitoria was also a little damp.  But then, those two are usually
    a little damp.  sigh 

    re -1
    
    When Lilly has a fit she get bushy-tail so a direct hit in the
    behind requires little skill as she reveals quite a target :-))
    
    the nose bulls eye was a lucky shot!
    
    Fran
    

    My four brilliant cats have figured out exactly where
    in the living room they can scratch so that Dad can't
    reach them from the loft with the CAT.  OR, they scratch
    the couch and run just out of reach of the CAT.  However,
    with two new editions, MOM has started being vicious with
    the CAT, which has resulted in a few rather surprised and
    damp cats and one *very* insulted Dream, who got her butt
    drench last night for clawing the new chair (MOTHER, I'm your
    Little Princess!  This is *not* acceptable behavior!).
    
    Mary-Michael (who is calling Niniane Charm and Dream Boogie
    and Charm Dream and Boogie Mips and Mips Belle and.....oh goodness ET, how
    do you keep them all straight! ;-)

    re: 61
    
    Welll, M-M, I'll tell ya...  When one of the little creeps
    is performing like a real brat, and I'm very very MAD,
    I just yell VERY VERY loud, 
    
    1.  "who_ever_the_h%^ll_you_are_and_
    2.  "what_ever_the_h*^ll_your_name_is
         CUT IT OUT!"
    
    Don't waste time trying to think of their names.
    I have always said, that my next cat's name would be
    either 1.  or 2. from above !  Sure is a good thing 
    Lil came with a name or she would have won one of those
    prizes.  

    Re: .61
    
    Even with three, I now understand why my Grandmother used to say
    "Hello, Marian, uh Linda, uh Janet, uh Karen."  Having all three be
    black/grey/white doesn't help any either.
    

    RE: .63
    >                                             Having all three be
    >black/grey/white doesn't help any either.
    
    With solid three black cats, I found that different color collars make the
    identification process so much easier.
    
    Deb

    
    
    That's a good idea, the problem with my two, (Both black) is that
    they would swap collars just to confuse me! Sigh...
    
    Feline outfoxed sometimes,
    
    Sue & Panther & Spot
    
    

    Try having a house with 16 birmans running around!  The only way
    we can tell them apart is if we get a good glimpse of their gloving,
    since no two are alike!!
    
    Jo

    RE: .65
    
    My Panther may be a wimp, but he would never wear a pink collar!
    
    Deb

Re: .61, .62, .63, .64


Well, with 20+ pigs (our nickname for cats in general), I find
that hollering "PIG" tends to do the trick (although you could
probably holler "CAT" too!).  The guilty party always seems to
know whom we are referring to.

Paul  

Dad to Phae, Ari, Seph, Trodzl, Weencz, Fred, Kigger, Lipi, 
Speaches, Screamsicle, Tasha, _um_ Max, Minx, Teenser,
_um_how_many_is_that_so_far_ Eeyore, Boofus, Fontzer,
_um_ok_who's_missing_ Tiff, Missle, Isis,
& Dan (the "+"th or ".5"th pig)

    I also use the generic "CAT!"
    
    Now that we've had two additions - Flame and, at least temporarily,
    Jesse, I find myself calling everyone Jesse - or Flame - or Jack
    - No wait a minute....I can tell the difference between Jack and
    the cats.  He's the one who won't listen to me.
      ;-)
    
      Nancy DC

    re: 66
    
    Good Lord, it would be like having 16 crazy Exotics!  I can't imagine
    wiping 16 globs of water off of 16 chins every time one of the crazies
    takes a drink!!!  At least with Exotics, they come in different
    colors - you at least know which one you are dealing with!
    I Deb's problem with the three all black boys - I have to be
    face-to-face with them to really know for sure which one I am 
    dealing with - sometimes I can tell from a certain position, but
    mostly it's faces.  Once in a while I mess up with the 3 calico's
    - sorry, Tenka, but your two other sisters aren't too much different
    especially if they are all curled up in balls in kitty beds - then
    if Katenka and Malinka are curled up together, sigh - it's tough!
    
    Jo, do you run around turning cats upside down like the judges do?
    We usually watch the Birman judging cause our Exotics are right
    after the Birmans - it's fun watching them tip all the cats over
    to see their back feet/laces.  How can you remember who has high
    or low gloving?  or   ??  tricky!!
    
    

    Try two silver tabby kittens, same age, same size, nearly
    identical coloring, the only difference is that Mips' bad 
    eye looks different than Belle's bad eye, but it's the *Same eye* 
    on both kittens!
    
    So who are you, hiding under that chair in the dark...... ;-)
    
    Mary-Michael and co.

    I really have trouble telling the kittens apart sometimes.  They
    are constantly changing, the only thing that doesn't change is their
    gloving, so we usually have names for them like "low toes", or "high
    runners" or "sloppy laces" etc.  Then this last litter through me
    for a loop.  Five kittens, 4 blues and 1 seal (she was easy to name
    :^}, we call her "seal baby").  But, I started calling one of the
    blue girls "low toes" only to discover that one of the boys had
    low toes too, and they were very similar.  So, I now have "low toe'd
    boy" and "low toe'd girl".  I have to look at their feet, then under
    their tails to really now who is who.  The adults are easier.
    
    I think the best entertainment at a cat show is watching a judge
    try and look at the Birman's gloving.  I have seen them do some
    really funny things.  The funniest part about it is that there is
    an easy way to do it, but none of the judges seem to be able to
    handle the easy way!  I have a wonderful collection of pictures
    of judges turning Birmans this way and that to try to look at gloves
    and laces.
    
    Jo

    Lilly isn't doing much better. The CAT unfortuantly has seemed
    to make her angrier.
    
    Fran
    
    

    That's not too surprising - she's mad cause you won't let her
    misbehave.  As long as she stops beating on the other kids, 
    she can be as mad as she wants to be.  She will either get
    over it or be mad.  She will realize that being mad all the
    time isn't much fun - and that beating up on the others causes
    her to get very wet - not much fun either.  She may put 2 and 2
    together and come out with:  Gee, if I"m a little nicer, mom may
    give me treats and pats."  One never knows, but YOU are the boss!
    
    

    re .74
    problem is she isn't mad at me it seems..she's going after the
    others with a vengence instead  :-(((
    
    fran
    
    

    re: 75
    
    Fran, just keep after her every time she goes after someone - 
    she will eventually associate the water with her actions, which
    are unacceptable.  This could take time.  I've done with two
    very very stubborn kids at my house - they are 100% better
    after a couple three weeks with the CAT.  I'm very amazed at
    the difference!  and don't feel guilty!!
    
    E.T.

    re 76
    
    E.T., oops was my feelings of guilt that obvious :-))))?
    I've no doubt that you are right that I got to keep at it. 
    I realize that if chidren were squabbling in the house I would
    put my foot down at that!!
    Unfortuantly I have realized too that I have become frightened
    of Lilly and her unpredictablity..she may very well be picking
    up on this....this I think is what I feel most guilty about.
    
    Fran
    
    

    Don't feel guilty Fran.  as she starts controlling her behavior
    you'll feel less scared.  I was somewhat scared of Jesse, but as
    the days passed that went away. Just concentrate on the love.
      N
    

    Fran,
    
    I do understand - but, you are right using the children analogy.
    Consistency works - if you let up and let her use unacceptable
    behavior, she will become confused.  It's hard, but she will be
    happier in the end.  She may even make a few new buddies when she
    lets herself.  maybe

    It sounds like I have a slightly different perspective on this than
    the others.  One of my cats tends to be "touchy" about discipline.
    She is VERY sensitive to it.  She's the one that we can't squirt 
    because it makes the problem worse.  Like your cat, she gets angrier
    at the other cat, NOT at the water.  With her we have to stay as
    calm as possible when breaking up fights.  We've found that to 
    quietly seperate them, then ignore her for awhile does the trick.
    We tried the C.A.T. for about a week when we first got our newest cat,
    to break up fights, and she just kept escalating the situation.  A
    few days of the calmer approach worked like a charm.  She calmed down
    very quickly after that.  
    
    Every cat is different.  If squirting her gets her over excited, and
    escalates the violence, it may be time to try something else.  That
    was our experience...
    
    Good luck,
    Karen.

    re: try something else - Just be sure you give this method plenty
    of time before deciding it isn't working.  Consistent discipline
    is a must with cats.  Their too smart for anything else.
      Nancy

    When my first cat was feral, and I was getting
    him used to the house, it seemed to be important that he get zero "good"
    results from attacking me.  I used to wear a denim jacket if I
    had to pick him up or anything, and I didn't make any sign if
    a tooth or claw managed to get thru it.  He really got the idea that
    only good behavior was "rewarded".
    

    I'll try it for another week...if however, she gets angrier
    I'll have to try something else...I haven't given up in 5 years..
    won't now either..