Conference misery::feline_v1

    Karen, Blue Seal Kat Kare is a low ash, low magnesium food, so you
    can stop kicking yourself!  You were feeding Bandit a wonderful
    diet and had no idea he was going to get FUS.  I'm glad he's doing
    better.  As far as I know, C/D is the best diet for FUS prone cats.
    I just wouldn't trust any of the grocery store brands.  The cans
    are large and you'll get several servings out of just one can.
    
    /Roberta
    

    oh karen, that is definately bad news... i hope everything is well
    with bandit now.  
    
    i'm going to ask a stupid question but can't help myself because
    i too feed my cats aims dry every once in a while (everyother day)
    and never want to deal with what you did but...
    
    what is cd food?
    
    thanks in advance.
    
    cj
    
   

	Re: .1

	Actually, according to the vet, Blue Seal is low ash, but not
	low enough in magnesium.  

	Re: .2

	I don't know much about S/D or C/D but from what the vet told
	me this morning...  

	  S/D is generally given to a cat for the two weeks following
	  a blockage because it breaks up the crystals that form in
	  the urine.

	  The cat is then switched from S/D to C/D.  C/D will keep the
	  crystals from forming in the urine.  These crystals are what
	  causes a blockage.

	The vet quoted me a price of $.95 to $1 a can and said that two
	cats would eat approximately 1 can a day between them, maybe
	a bit less.  I really do not want to feed them C/D dry but I
	may pick some up for those times that I go away overnight.  I'm
	really scared that this could happen again.  The vet did say
	that they had a list of other types of food I could feed them
	but they really recommend the C/D. 

	Karen

    Karen,
    
    Don't panic!!  C/D dry is about the best thing that you can feed
    Bandit under the circumstances.  Kalliste loves the stuff.  He has
    to be on it for the rest of his life.  One thing that I can say
    about C/D is that Bandit shouldn't be allowed to free feed.  C\D
    is very high in calories, and a neutered cat can grow quite rotund
    in a very short time.  About 1/4 cup is enough to maintain weight.
    Since Kalliste is a breeding cat and is very active, I let him free
    feed.  He has been on it for about 1 year, and is not fat.  Monroe
    and Winston, on the other hand, are quite rotund.
    
    The C/D will help keep Bandit's urine acidic, which will help him
    stay unblocked.  The dry seems to be slightly more economical than
    the canned, plus, my cats don't seem to like the canned very much.
    
    Don't worry, he will be fine now.  Also, I think $150 sounds very
    reasonable considering the illness and the treatment involved. 
    I paid slightly more than that when Winston was blocked.
    
    Jo

    What a bargain...I'm baby sitting a very sick Ashley Van Grayson; his
    tab on Monday for tests and such was $305.00.  Like Cheryl Tiegs,
    frankly, he's worth it!
    
    As for kicking yourself, I really doubt that a week on a certain food
    would cause FUS.  My vet tells me it builds up gradually.  Don't be so
    hard on yourself!
    
    Mary

    Hi Karen... Barney has had bouts with FUS for a good part of his 7
    years.  About 2 years ago, the vet recommended CD and SD so I switched. 
    The food is great; however, Barney gained a TON of weight.  He went
    from a hefty 17 to an even heftier 20+ lbs.  My other cats also gained
    weight on this (Gonezo also gaining 3lbs).  I now feed the cats Science
    Diet Lite dry food and they seem to like it.
    
    As for medicine, Barney takes Uroeze and Prednazone (the Uroeze for the
    urine and Prednazone to help alleviate any straining).  I've stopped
    giving it to him every day but he does get it a few times a week which
    seems to control the FUS.
    
    Good luck with Bandit.  It's probably not the food that caused this. 
    Some cats are just more prone to FUS than others (ie, I feed my cats
    all the same food and only one got FUS).
    
    Mary
    

>    As for kicking yourself, I really doubt that a week on a certain food
>    would cause FUS.  My vet tells me it builds up gradually.  

	Actually, he has been eating Blue Seal for a year, not a week.

	
	I went to visit Bandit last night.  He looked much more comfortable
	despite the catheter.  He is covered with urine though.  They are
	going to give him a bath before sending him home. 
	
	If he has no setbacks before tomorrow afternoon then I am leaving
	saturday morning for a week in Canada.  My teriffic roommate
	is picking him up on Monday and will take care of him till I get
	back.  I'm going to the vets tonight to visit him and pay the
	bill and tell him to be good while I'm gone. 

	Karen
	

	
	I almost forgot... the price on a can of C/D is $1.22.  
	Does anybody know of anywhere in the Nashua or Chelmsford
	area where I can get it for less?  I think I am talked
	into buying some of the dry food too.  

	Karen

    Karen, C/D is a prescription diet.  It is only available from a
    vet.  My vet sells it for $1.20 per can which is about average.
    I don't think you can buy it for less.  It's the price we pay for
    having cats!
    
    Have a fun vacation and I'm sure Bandit will be fine.
    
    /Roberta
    

    I have been buying the SD by the case ($26 + change) and it works out
    to be $1.09/can.  When I was buying Amore and 9 lives, I was spending 
    .30 - .60 a can for a less quality food.  If you compare 16 oz of
    SD (or CD) to 16 oz of another, you'll find ounce for ounce, 
    it actually cost less (besides feeding less, volume discounts, 
    less stinky poopoo.... ).
    
    Oh yeah, the can lasts Nippa 6 days, @ 2 feedings/day.
    
    M&N

    Karen,
    
    I think I pay about $19.00 for the large bag of C/D.  The vet tells
    me that the price is set by the manufacturer, but I don't know if
    that is true, or he is just trying to head me off when I ask for
    a discount. :^)
    
    The only relapse that Kalliste has ever had was the result of my
    running out of C/D and feeding him Iams for two weeks.  I will never
    run out of C/D again.
    
    Good luck with Bandit, he will be fine, and have a good time on
    your vacation.
    
    Jo

    Karen -
    
    There's a place in Chemlsford in that little mall near Marshalls.  I
    think it's called the Chelmsford Pet Center or something similar.  They
    have Science Diet.  
    
    Mary
    

    Karen is looking specifically for Prescription Diet C/D which is
    only available through the vet's office.  Her vet has recommended
    that Bandit be put on that type of food to keep his FUS under control.
    
    Jo

    OHH NOO....
    
    The infamous Bandit is sick.  Oh Poor Baby.  He better get better in a
    hurry.  I still love to re-read the note on *Bandits Latest Antics*.  I
    even have a copy of it at home.
    
    Have fun in Canada and bring lots of toys home for the little invalid.
    How is T.K. taking this??
    
    Sandi  (mom to Lightning, DejaVu & Thunder)
    
    

    I think you will find that CD is not that expensive, because you will
    wind up giving Bandit less of it that the old food.  That's because it
    is high in calories.  S&H really tub out if they get normal-sized
    portions.
    

    re: .12  Science Diet and C/D are NOT the same thing.  do not
    substitute one for the other.
    
    

	I went to visit Bandit at the vet yesterday and he was looking
	pretty good.  He was still smelly despite a bath so he'll have
	to get another one.  They brought him into a visiting room and
	he just sat in my lap with his head in my hand and his paws	
	wrapped around my arm.  He purred and purred and didn't want to
	leave my lap.  I felt like I was deserting him when I left last
	night.  

	I got some SD for when Bandit gets home and a case of CD.  The
	feeding guide at the vet recommended 3/5 can a day for a 15 pound
	cat and 2/5 can a day for a 10 pound cat.  Bandit is 14 pounds
	and T.K. is 11 pounds so it looks like I should feed them a can
	a day between them.  At $1.22 a can thats $445.30 a year to feed
	the two of them!  The vet said that Bandit likes the food, but
	when I gave it to T.K. last night and this morning he barely
	touched it.  But I threw out all the Blue Seal so he doesn't	
	have a choice.

	T.K. is disgustingly mushy with Bandit away ;-)  He cries pitifully
	outside my room when I'm sleeping and if I let him in the room
	I have to sleep with both hands under the covers or he'll roll
	his head in my hand all night!  He hopped up on my lap to get
	attention this morning!!  He must really miss Bandit to do that!

	Karen

    Karen, I think that the C/D dry will be the better way to go for
    you in terms of cost.  The 20 pound (maybe 18 lb) bag costs about
    $19.00.  I only give about 1/4 cup to the household pets or they
    get fat.  So, if you are using 1/2 cup a day, I think that only
    works out to about $.23 a serving. (someone help me with this, math
    is not my strong suit...20 pounds = 320 ounces, 1/4 cup each is
    2oz each = 4oz a day...320 oz divided by 4 oz a day = 80 servings...
    $19.00 divided by 80 servings = $.2375 a serving, right????)
    
    If you feed them much more than that, they will really get fat.
    The vet assures me that 1/4 cup is plenty to provide them with the
    proper nutrition and calories.  On that amount, they don't gain
    much weight.  The hard part is that it doesn't seem like very much
    food when you are used to them eating a full cup of dry, plus a
    can of canned food a day.  Believe me, those of us who tell you
    that this stuff is packed with calories are not kidding you, we
    know from experience.
    
    Jo

    On the face of it, dry food _should_ be cheaper than canned.
    
    1) The packaging is cheaper (paper vs. metal)
    2) The shipping is cheaper (water weighs over 8 lbs./gal., and
       cans are heavier than paper)
    3) I _think_ I remember moist dog food being introduced as
       something that was supposed to be more enticing than dry, a
       la Gravy Train with the water already in.  If so, you're
       paying for the marketing concept.
    
    Packaging and distribution costs are pretty invisible to the consumer
    -- we just throw the stuff away, after all.  But they're very important
    in the overall product pricing.
    
    						-- Ed

    Is CD dry as safe as CD canned for a cat with fus?
    

    In the future, if you have to switch food, before you throw
    the old stuff out please consider either donating it to the
    local humane or sending it to me.  I leave food out year-round
    for the strays and the various other "varmints" who visit my
    back door from the local conservation land.  I can't afford to
    feed them all CD or Perform. 
      Thanks
      Nancy DC
    

    Ditto!  I feed strays in my yard as well.  The humane societies will
    usually only take food in sealed packages (for obvious reasons).  Since
    survival is the primary concern for these critters, they're usually not
    too fussy about ash content...
    
    Mary
    

We feed the hungry strays, too, but try NOT to encourage the raccoons
any more.  The two times we did, we ended up with injured cats that 
tried to defend themselves from the 'coons that were after their food.
Not only did that make for a large vet bill, but my furfaces suffered.

Paul

   RE: .18 by WR2FOR::CORDESBRO_JO
    
    > The 20 pound (maybe 18 lb) bag costs about
    
    This is unfair! First I hear that you folks on the west coast can
    get 22 oz KalKan cans, and now I hear that you can get 18 or 20
    lb bags of C/D! 
    
    I've asked my vet more than once about getting larger bags of C/D
    and he has told me that Hill's only distributes dry C/D in
    the 10 lb bags (apparently a lot of people have asked him for it,
    and he'd like to buy the larger bags himself to use in his practice). 
    The distributor tells him that they don't make it in large bags
    because, since it has such a high fat content, it would go rancid
    too fast. Sounds like the distributor doesn't want to stock the
    big bags!!
    
    Deb                                                                  
    

    Deb,
    
    I will check the label tonight and make sure that it is that big
    a bag.  After you said that I wasn't sure that I was right.  How
    much do you pay for your 10 pound bags?
    
    Jo

    I'll have to look in my checkbook but it was something like $18. If it
    is the 10 LB sack, sounds like I'm paying a bit less than you (must be
    a slight difference in transportation charge)

    Deb

	Well, I'm back from vacation and everything is just fine with
	Bandit.  My roommate picked him up from the vet last Monday
	and I called in Tuesday to get a report.  I was so relieved!
	If anything had been wrong I would have turned around and
	drove right home!

	I got home Saturday night and Bandit was a bit mopey and more
	quiet than usual but Sunday he seemed normal.  I think he was
	just hot.

	T.K. is not thrilled with the new cat food.  They two cats are	
	not even up to a can a day yet!  I'm don't think I want to feed
	the cats C/D dry since the vet said that moisture is important
	and many cats do not drink enough water.  I will get C/D dry for
	those weekends when they are left overnight though.

	I know that Magnesium is a problem for FUS cats.  I was grocery
	shopping yesterday and looked at some cans of cat food.  They 
	had an ingredient called Manganese somethingorother.  Is this
	the ingredient to watch out for?  I can't believe that cat food
	manufacturers put it in the food they make!

	Karen

    Karen,
    
    Magnesium is a mineral, and is necessary.  But, some cats can't
    tolerate high levels of it.  Also, I don't think they add it to
    the food, I think it occurs naturally.  In the case of C/D, they
    add a urine acidifier and decrease the levels of magnesium by selecting
    ingredients that are lower in magnesium.
    
    I checked Kalliste's C/D, it is 10 pounds, not 20.  It just seems
    like more since the bag is twice as large as the amount of food
    inside it.  What a waste of paper.
    
    Good luck with Bandit.
    
    Jo

    
    	 Are you sure that was manganese in the food and not magnesium?
    They are two different elements, I don't know if the other is
    necessary, inert, or dangerous (the manganese, that is).  Anybody know
    what a manganese compound would be used for?

    
    In the UK you most cats seem to be fed on a canned food called
    "wiskers", there is only one problem associated with this brand.
    Thaty is that one there on it most cats will refuse "ANYTHING"
    except wiskers or fresh meat/fish.
    
    Over here it about 38p ie 70c for a tin which will feed a ravanous
    cat for a day.
    
    best of luck over there.
    
    
    
    Andrew (and the UK bandit).
    
    
    
    

    >feed a ravanous cat for a day
    
    Except for Tarot that is...
    
    Though his intake has gone down since he was a kitten.
    
    How can 2 kittens get through 3 cans of cat food in a day when the
    cans are as big as they are?
    
    No it wasn't worms, and no they aren't fat (no justice)!

Good news and bad news.  Bad news:  Poor XT now has FUS.  I can't imagine
why my female cat would get it and my males are perfectly fine.  Good news:
This notesfile has made me so aware of what can go wrong, I got her to
the vet at the very beginning and she is fine.  The didn't have to
cathorize her or anything.  

Now the question.  I too have to feed s/d for 7 cans.  (This may take
her 3 weeks at the rate she's eating it!).  Then I swith to c/d - for
all my cats.  They said it would be fine, and trying to feed one a
different food is just about impossible.  (My other two are male).

Problem:  Vet said NO MORE POUNCE OR CAT TREATS.  My cats are VERY
unhappy with that.  He said they would conteract the value of the c/d.
Does anyone out there know anything you can give them?  I was thinking
of maybe a little tuna which is packed in water or SOMETHING.  The
hurt eyes and meows are so hard to take.  I have to take XT back in
another 2 weeks for another checkup and I forgot to ask when she
was diagnosed since I was upset.

What to other cat owners do?

Thanks so much,

Linda (PC, Sargent, sick XT and the dogs - Max and Bear)

    How about raw chicken liver? Mine love the stuff, but they don't get it
    that often as it creates very loose stools.
    
    Deb

    The vet is sure right about Pounce.  Holly is prone to FUS (not if she
    is on just C/D), and giving her pounce is like issuing a written
    invitation to FUS.  I give them a can of chicken or turkey (the small
    Swanson cans, packed in water not oil) every once in a while.  It
    doesn't seem to hurt but you should probably ask your vet about it.
    I also give them 5 or 6 pieces of Science Diet dry each day;  they love 
    it, but I would ask your vet about that also.
    

	Well, after 2-1/2 years, Bandit had his second problem with FUS
	last night.  Yesterday morning I noticed him use the litter box
	two times, rather close together.  I made a comment to my husband
	that this was how Bandits last FUS problem happened but then I
	decided that there was nothing to worry about since he had been
	eating CD dry ever since the last problem.

	I left work last night, went to my health club, went to the library,
	then got home around 7:15.  My husband announces that Bandit had
	been in the litter box five times since he had gotten home at
	6:30.  I pulled the litter box out, scooped it, and left it in
	the middle of the kitchen.  Bandit got in again, squatted for
	about a minute, then got out.  Just about 5 drops of wetness
	was in the box.  I immediately called the vet and by 8:00 we were
	at the vets office.

	The next 45 minutes were absolutely awful.  The office was closed
	so Steve and I had to act as his assistents.  We held Bandit down
	while he catheterized him.  Poor Bandit cried through the whole
	thing and I was in tears myself.  Steven looked quite upset as
	well, partly because of the catheter (since Bandit and Steve are
	both males, it kinda grossed him out) and partly because Bandit
	was so upset.  Bandit was actually very good, the vet was pleased
	that he could do it without sedating him.  He drew a couple of
	samples and performed a urine analysis on him.  He said that Bandit
	did not have a blockage this time, however there were crystals
	that were irritating him and giving him this feeling of having
	to urinate.  He gave Bandit a couple of shots, a perscription,
	and a bag of S/D to use for a month when we will go back for
	a checkup.

	I asked why he did not express Bandits bladder and he said that
	it was because Bandit was too big (19.3 pounds).  Bandit really
	should lose weight, however it is unlikely.  I am currently
	feeding Bandit and T.K. 1 cup of C/D per day split between them.
	I'm not sure how much each cat actually eats but 13 pound T.K.
	is always on the move and has no extra fat.  I suspect he eats
	as much or more than Bandit since he needs to sustain his energy.
	Bandit, on the other hand, rarely moves or even opens his eyes
	for an extended period of time.  The vet said that it was unlikely	
	that I could get Bandit to lose more than a couple of pounds and
	even that would be very difficult.

	I'm worried that this has happened after 2-1/2 years of no 
	problems and wonder when it will happen again.  Now, I'm not
	so secure with C/D and I don't think it is a question of 
	"if" it will happen again.  I suspect it will.  Luckily this
	time was not as bad as the last time (when he was actually
	blocked with his bladder the size of a grapefruit).  I guess
	all I can do is keep an eye on him.

	Bandit is still spending alot of time in the litter box but the
	vet said this would happen for the next couple of days.  Otherwise,
	he should be fine, for now.

	Karen

    If Bandit has had any stress in his life lately, that could have
    trigered another bout of FUS.  C/D is good stuff and will usually
    prevent a cat from having blockages, but environmental factors will
    have some part in it too.
    
    Also, 1/4 cup of C/D will maintain a cats' weight very nicely.  If
    Bandit is getting 1/2 cup or more a day, then he is getting more than
    he needs to maintain health.  If you do wish to trim him down, then you
    may have to feed the boys separately and then remove any leftover food
    that TK doesn't eat.
    
    Glad Bandit is okay now.
    
    Jo

    Hi Jo,

    The vet told me that a cat his size should be getting 3/4 C/day,
    less if on a diet and said 1/2 C seems reasonable.  I'm going
    to try to cut him down but he doesn't eat in one sitting... he
    nibbles all day long.  As far as making sure T.K. gets enough
    food, I plan to put it on the counter.  Bandit can't get there
    and it he eventually manages it that probably means he has lost
    some weight and gotten into shape!

    Bandit hasn't had any stress in his life lately (besides last
    night) so I really cannot figure out the cause of this.

    Thanks for your reply!
    
    Karen

    CD permanently corrected FUS in a couple of my cats, but Little Bit
    has a small bout about once a year and goes on Stone Diet for awhile.
    
    There is a light version of CD dry, I forget it's name.  I mix it in
    with the regular CD dry, starting out with a little so they get used to
    it.  They haven't twigged yet to the fact that the "robust" cats get more
    of the light mixed in than the other.
    

  Karen,
 
   I think you are refering to R/D when you said a "lite" version of the
   CD dry.  R/D (or RD) does not work like CD since it does not make the
   urine acidic.

   re: "robust"

   That certainly describes Bandit.  We have alot of jokes about him
   because he really is kinda roly poly... very cute too.  Many times
   he will be washing his belly and he'll topple over onto his back.
   When I see him do that and end up lying there like a turtle somebody
   flipped, I can't help but laugh.  I feel sorry for him too though
   since I wonder if he might be uncomfortable with all that extra
   weight.

   Karen

    Karen(s) :'):
    
    When Monroe moved in with my mom, he weighed 13 pounds and in my
    opinion was a tad overweight.  I sent him to her with a bag of C/D and
    instructions to feed him 1/4 cup a day.  Three months later, he weighed
    16 pounds and my mom swears she is only feeding him 1/4c per day (I
    don't believe her!).
    
    Anyway, a year and a half later, he is probably 19 pounds and we call
    him the "basketball with legs".  BUT, he hasn't had a recurrence of FUS
    since he has lived with her.  The stress of living with the number of
    cats that I have, and especially the little kittens, was too much for
    him at my house.  He is much happier with my mom.
    
    The weird thing is that I had him for 9 years before he went to live
    with my mom, and now when he sees me he runs!!  It is so upsetting to
    me.  I don't understand it.  But, since it is the only form of exercise
    he gets I guess I shouldn't complain. ;'}
    
    Jo

    Off the top of my head, I don't recollect if the lite stuff I have is
    RD or WD, but I called the vet's office to check, and they said both
    are okay for FUS-cats.  (WD is a 20% reduction in calories, RD a 40%
    reduction, just as an added tidbit of info they passed along.)
    

	Bandit is doing much better now.  He isn't visiting the litter box
	quite so much and he is eating a little.  He does not like the SD
	cat food.  T.K. on the other hand, loves it!

	It was kinda funny... I put down the SD in front of Bandit and
	the CD in front of T.K. and they immediately switched.  I tried
	a couple of more times before I gave up and put the CD on the
	counter where Bandit could not get to it.  I put T.K. on the
	counter too but he kept going after the SD.  I left the CD
	on the counter and the SD on the floor, thinking that 19 pound
	Bandit could not get on the counter.  Well, I was wrong!  It
	seems he'll do anything for food, including jumping on the
	counter!  I finally gave up and will be feeding both cats
	SD for the next month (the vet said it wouldn't hurt T.K.).

	I have an idea though... once Bandit is back to normal, I am
	going to put the cat food on the counter all the time.  The
	way he eats (takes a couple of bites off and on through the day),
	he will have to get on the counter several times.  This will
	give him a little bit of exercise and may also discourage
	him from eating so often.

	Karen