Conference misery::feline_v1

    Greetings - one request - please don't use all caps.  It is
    considered shouting and is also hard to read.
    
    Where are you located?

    Do you require the cats that are going to be bred to your males
    be of a particular quality or is the health certificate and FelV
    all that is required???  
    
    cin...also a persian/exotic shorthair breeder
    

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Note 2683.0                      Sale of kittens                      No replies
DASXPS::RBPARKER                                     10 lines  14-JUL-1989 15:08
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    To Cruise,
       Thanks for the advice on the caps. I am new at using the system
    and was not aware that caps meant shouting.  In regards to your
    question on where I am located.  I am at NSO in Salem,N.H.
        My cattery is located in Salem on Shadow Lake Rd.
    I am also interested in birds. I own two Yellow Napes. Actually
    I have had all sorts of animals.
                               Thanks again
                                     Shadow Lake Cattery

         In regards to my stud service!
                 No I do not require that the cats be of any particular
    quality.  I do require that they be healthy. 
         I have a feeling I will get a few replys on this note.
                   
                  Thanks for inquiring.
                             ROSIE, SHADOW LAKE CATTERY
    Z   
    
    

    
    Folks,
    
    I know this is a sensitive issue to a lot of us. Please, try to
    watch the tone of your replies. Some of them have been a bit charged
    and bordering on inflammatory. Please, even if we don't agree with
    each other, let's try to be nice.
    
    Deb
    co-moderator

    Yes, this certainly is a sensitive issue - I feel that only some
    are being allowed to express their opinions.  I think the
    base note should also be removed because it is very damaging
    to breeders and their goals.  It is also my opinion, that
    .0 should have spent more time reading this file before
    offering a service of 'that type'.  I find the whole idea
    totally offensive (which is putting it mildly).  If folks are
    going to be cautioned or asked to take care on sensitive 
    issues, the person writing the base note should have been more
    aware that the issue was sensitive before entering it.
    It seems to me that this is where the pet shops get their
    supply of kittens - I think that the correct term is 'kitten mill'?
    Frankly, the whole idea makes me ill.                 
    
    A quality-conscious not pleased breeder

RE:  Sensitive issue

I believe it is valid to mention, again, that millions
of kittens and cats are killed every year in this country because of
uncontrolled breeding...As far as I'm concerned, THAT is a very sensitive
issue.  I assume that someone who breeds without consideration of quality
must not be aware of the scope of the problem or they would be more
concerned about the future of their kittens and more selective in the breeding
of more kittens.

    re: 11
    
    Totally agree - I think the keyword is RESPONSIBILITY - 
    participating in a controlled, responsible breeding 
    program to increase the quality and health of the
    breed, with serious care taken to see that the kittens
    receive quality homes, as much as humanly possible.
    
    E.T.

    A question for the base noter...
    
    I am asking this to educate myself, so please, don't misunderstand my
    intent.  
    
    Why do you breed your cats if you are not concerned about quality or
    improving the breed???  
    
    Since I breed for show cats, I understand what the goal of my breeding
    program is.  But what is the goal or reasons for breeding cats, if it
    isn't to improve the breed???
    
    This is the information that I was trying to find out when writing .5,
    Rosie, can you help us to understand your side of this issue.
    
    Thanks
    cin
    

I'm not the author of the base note, but, at the risk of starting a flame,
I'll tell you why I plan on having kittens or puppies in the future.

I think that it is a great experience for kids to witness first hand.
When my kids(not yet born) are about 5-9 I plan on getting a purebred
dog or cat just for that purpose.  I'm not a breeder, and I may not be
bettering the breed, but I will make sure they have good homes and
will only have one or two litters before I have her spade.
I know I am the minority in this file. Please don't be too hard on me.
I know all the arguments for and against and have made my decision.

    re: .14
      I think you can improve the situation a bit by trying to
    produce the "Best" examples of the breed possible within the
    restraints of your budget.  Finding a breeder you can trust
    and working closely with him/her will insure that you do
    your best.  Perhaps one of the breeders in this notesfile.
      Also, I think some of the problems around breeding notes
    have to do with whether or not the person is trying to pass
    off pet quality cats as show quality and whether or not they
    require a spay/neuter agreement from the buyers.  If you
    charge a reasonable amount of money and then require a certificate
    of spay/neuter before you give out papers on the kittens or
    puppies then I personally have little trouble with what you
    intend to do.  
      Nancy DC
    

    I think that many people begin breeding by thinking they'll have one or
    two litters.  I know that's how I started.  I'll also admit that when I
    thought about 1 or 2 litters I figured it'ld be a fun way to make a
    little money!  Ha ha!!  
    
    I agree with what Nancy said, you can do that and still better the
    breed and not have it cost you an arm and two legs.  Many breeders will
    work with someone who wants to purchase a cat for a couple litters and
    then spay her.  They will sell you a nice example of the bred you
    choose and then help in choosing the male cat to breed with her.  I,
    myself, am always happy to work with someone in this way.  In this way,
    you are still working to better the breed.  In this way, you also will
    learn more about the breed you choose and how to determine the quality
    of your kittens.  I also would help sell the person sell the kittens if
    they were having trouble.  
    
    I feel that having a nice cat for a litter or two can be done and also
    can improve the breed.  With many breeds, a breeding cat is only of
    good enough quality for a few years anyway.  The breeds improve and you
    have to keep improving the quality of the cats within a breeding
    program to keep improving the quality of your offspring.  
    
    I started by buying a nice $200 himalayan breeder cat that I wanted to
    have a litter or two with.  I showed her and she won a ribbon...I was
    hooked!!!  Here I am 10 years later!!  It doesn't have to be expensive,
    to start out.  
    
    I'ld like to hear how some of the other breeders in here feel about
    this.  
    
    cin...
    

    re: 14
    
    Thank you for explaining that - I think that lots of folks
    like for their kids to see the birthing process - but, rather
    than do it your self, why not take your kids to a breeder
    when a litter may be due or something along those lines ?
    
    Just a thought....

    Elaine,
    
    That's a neat idea, although, not always practical.  I think it would
    make my cats too nervous, only because I don't have children, and my
    cats are a little leary of small people!!!  
    
    I have called adults that want to see the birthing process for them to
    come and watch.  The only trouble that I can see with this is if there
    are complications, the more people around, the more chaos.  
    
    cin
    

        At certain times of the year, there are more than enough pregnant
    cats in the shelters.  A nice thing to do would be to take in one
    of these cats and go through the process.  You would be doing a
    wonderful thing for the mother cat and her kittens while teaching
    your children an awful lot about being a responsible pet owner.
    I think it would be very rewarding.
    
    					Mary

    re: .19 - What a WONDERFUL Idea!  

    re: 18
    
    That's the best idea yet.  What a nice, and rewarding way to teach the
    children about the birth process and responsibility.
    
    I love it!
    

Thank you all!!

I guess I can breathe now.

I will plan on either working with a breeder or taking in a pregnant
stray that needs help.  

Of course it will be awhile...

Becky

    re:19
    
    Mary, as Nancy said, that IS a great idea - way to go !!!
    
    E.T.

    While I can certainly understand wanting to have a litter or two,
    I don't agree with the argument that the birth process is something
    that children need to witness in their pets.  I am not making a
    judgement on your intentions, just expressing my opinion.
    
    During a delivery, a lot of things can go wrong, and kittens can
    die.  This might be traumatic for the children. That is not my main
    objective though.  I agree that if a person plans to do this that
    it would be good to research your breed and work to improve it while
    you are at it.  
    
    If a person just buys a cat and lets it get pregnant, what they
    are also teaching the children is irresponsible pet ownership. 
    If a person wants to have their children witness the miracle of
    birth with a pet, I feel it is important that the children understand
    that the litter is actually contributing to a specific breed and
    the improvement of that breed, rather than just to the overpopulation
    problem.  
    
    One of the best ways that I can think of to help the pet overpopulation
    problem is to teach the children about spaying and neutering pet
    cats.
    
    JO

    
    I've been reading these responses.  As a mother of two boys, and of two
    female (spayed) cats, I am going to add my opinion.  It is my opinion
    only and my experience only.
    
    Both of my boys were of an age (5-8) when our oldest mother had a
    litter.  We had them observe some of it.  They could have cared less!
    They got bored with it in less than 5 minutes.  We did not let the
    mother get pregnant for the purpose of letting the boys watch.
    
    I'm not saying kids aren't interested, some may well be.  My kids have
    gotten more about the birth process from watching National Geographic
    and nature specials on educational TV than they got from watching it in
    real life.  There is a video about human birth (I forget the name) that
    is available that is superb.  It is not gory.  It takes you from
    inception (showing the child growing in the womb) through birth.  My
    boys saw part of this and were fascinated.
    
    There are many ways to let children experience the birth process.
    
    One other experience.  One mother cat I have owned turned bad after the
    birth of her litter.  I have heard other people talk of mothers that
    turned after giving birth.  Can any of the breeders give further on the
    possibilities there?  
    
    This note is only my opinion and thoughts.  If someone decides to let a
    mother have a litter for the purpose of their children experiencing the
    birth process, I just hope that all the kittens end up in nice homes.
    
    Faith
    

    re: .24 & .25  Both have very valid points!  You know, everyone
    has had constructive and c*r*e*a*t*i*v*e suggestions.  We have 
    come up with a number of positive options!  This is great.
      Nancy DC
    

    Re: .25
    
    On a mother cat "turning bad" after birth:  could the birthing
    process have caused some physical problem that remained
    painful?  Did a vet check out the cat for this?
    

    I haven't experienced a female "turning bad" after a litter of kittens
    was born.  Karen may have a point about the possibility of a physical
    problem.  Pregnancy and delivery is painful and uncomfortable for
    a cat.  
    
    Jo

    I know of one instance where the mother cat turned on her kittens. The
    cat had two or three litters a year for umpteen (maybe 10?) years.
    All suggestions and pleas to have the cat spayed fell on deaf ears. 
    The owner finally brought the cat to the humane society because she had
    become nasty towards her kittens. I bet if I had a hundred kids and
    was always pregnant I'd be a tad nasty, too. 

    Linda

    
    Thanks for the responses regarding mother cat turning bad.  This was a
    weird case.  She was fine with her kittens.  She turned on people. 
    This continued after the kittens were gone.  It got to the point it was
    necessary to have the mother put to sleep.
    
    I believe it may have had something to do with the mother's own birth,
    childhood and lineage.  She was born on a farm owned by people that I
    don't hold a lot of respect for their handling of kittens.  They always
    had more than they could get rid of.  This kitten was taken from it's
    mother at an age where I had to feed it with an eyedropper.  It was
    that or it was going to be destroyed by the owner.
    
    It may well have been just something in the cats genetic make-up, who
    knows.
    
    Sorry to have gotten off the topic here.
    
    Faith
    

re: .26

This is great!

I was feeling guilty about my decision to have kittens or puppies until
I received these helpful suggestions. I felt like I was being selfish,
but if I adopt a pregnant animal, I'm really helping!  What a great idea!

Can anyone see anything wrong with working with a breeder or adopting
an already pregnant animal?  (I might even do both, a dog and a cat)

As far as the kids go, I intend to educate them to be kind and responsible
animal owners of course.  I would just like to share this wonderful 
experience with them like I did with my mother.  Who knows, by the time
I have kids and they are old enough, I may have changed my mind.

Thank you all again for your suggestions and being so helpful.

Becky  

    One point that I haven't heard anyone mention yet is, what's best for the
    cat? Should we only be concerned with what's best for us and what *we* 
    want?

    I always thought it was stressful for a cat giving birth to have a lot
    of people around, especially strangers. Isn't that why female cats go
    into seclusion when they're ready to give birth, because they don't want
    people around? After the kittens are born the mother is very protective 
    of them and will move them to a safer spot, perhaps one inaccessible to 
    humans, if she feels they are being bothered where they are. 

    Re: .19

    I think fostering a pregnant cat from a humane society rather than 
    allowing a cat to get pregnant solely for the purpose of letting one's
    kids witness the birth process is a *great* idea, provided the cat can 
    handle it. I think it would impress upon the kids the problem of pet 
    overpopulation, what happens to all the unwanted cats (and other animals), 
    and how hard it is to find good, PERMANENT homes for all the kittens 
    (and other animals) that are born. 

    When I was a kid, we temporarily adopted a stray cat who proceeded to 
    have three litters of kittens before we found her a home (my parents
    soon after became educated to the benefits of spaying and neutering).
    I can't say as I got anything out of those experiences as the kittens
    were always born when I was at school. I really don't remember much
    about the kittens other than they were cute, they wrecked the livingroom
    curtains, and I was very unhappy when we had to give them away.

    My first choice for teaching kids about birth, as mentioned in .25, is a 
    TV nature special or the videotape route, either of which is probably a 
    lot more educational.

    Linda

    I think the best idea here was to adopt an already pregnant cat from a
    shelter, although I don't see any problem with working with a breeder
    either.  
    
    If you were adopting a pregnant cat, I'ld take the kids with me to the
    shelter and show them what happens to unwanted cats, and what happens
    when people don't spay or neuter.  Then teach them how important it is
    to find good homes for the kittens that are born and then set a good
    example by spaying mom cat.
    
    I'm happy to see all these constructive ideas.  
    
    cin
    

    I love the idea of adopting a pregnant cat!  And you have a great
    resource in this conference if you want to work with a breeder.
                                                              
    FWIW:  I will quickly relate my feelings from childhood regarding kittens.
    I remember having *lots* of fun with the Kitties.  That was the
    best part.   Coming home from school and playing with those cuties.
     Pet ownership teaches so many things to kids -- responsibility, love, 
    caring for another being other than SELF, etc.  I remember nothing
    about the birthing process, mainly because
    the Momcats found their own delivery space which was far away from
    the humans.  We discovered, rather late I'm afraid, that the Momcats
    did not want us touching or handling the babies right away.  One
    of my earliest memories, I am sad to say, was trying to find a
    mewing kitten that the Momcat had hidden in our basement.  My mother
    was frantic and kept coming to get me out of the cellar. (I never
    did obey well.  Neither did the Black Lab we had.)  It turned
    out that the Momcat (who was a little schizo anyway) had broken
    the kitten's neck for some reason (probably because we were handling
    it, but who knows).                                       
                                                              
    Hope that was not too depressing!                         
                                                              
    Anyway, when the time comes, good luck with your decision! 
          
    Anne            
                   
          

    re .33 
    
    I, too think adopting a pregnant animal from a shelter is a wonderful
    idea, especially if your (future) children are fully involved in
    chosing the animal.
    
    As the noter in .33 pointed out the children should also be shown
    what a shelter is like, (many are very nice but none is like a good
    home) and what may potentally happen if a pet is not adopted.  Children
    should know what "Putting a pet to sleep" means.  NOTE = Opinion
    warning, I've never liked that phrase it's much to soft, I've all
    ways preferred "Putting a pet down".
    
    That sort of education will give your children the complete picture
    of what responsible pet ownership means. Good for you for thinking
    of this so far in advance!  Good for us for having so many wonderful
    alternatives to offer!
    
    Feline Responsible,
    
    Sue & Panther & Spot (Both shelter babies and Spayed too:-)  )
    
    
    I really love the ideas that have come out in this note!

    I too think the idea of adopting a pregnant cat or dog from a shelter
    would be a good idea.  However, as a dog breeder for 10 years you
    must also be aware of some of the potential dangers.  If you are
    not familiar with this animal you must be prepared for the worse
    and that means fully educating yourself on kittening or whelping.
    Not all deliveries go smoothly.  Complications can arise either
    physically in the animal or mentally in the animal.  I have personally
    had dogs in so much pain during delivery that they have turned and
    would have bitten me or killed that pup if someone had not been
    holding her head.  I too used to think that witnessing the miracle
    of birth would be great for children.  But I advise you not to
    allow children in the room until after that first baby has been
    born so that you know what to expect from the mother.  Not all mothers
    would tolerate more than one person in the room during delivery
    and some mothers wouldn't even tolerate you in the room during
    delivery.  My mother had a dog once that would strip her teeth at
    anyone who came in the room until after her litter was completely
    born and then she was fine.
    
    What you wish to do you will need to completely play by ear as far
    as allowing your children in the room during delivery.  I have
    personally allowed my friend's children in the room during one delivery
    and found that neither were they interested but also were so noisy
    that it upset the mother dog.  Don't be upset or discouraged if
    your plan for your children to view this birth does not happen.
    Besides most animal have their offspring late at night or early
    am and alot of children don't care to get up.
    
    I do hope that you are able to adopt a pregnant queen or dog and
    if you can I would also advise you to locate someone who could assist
    you if you do run into trouble during the birthing.
    
    Nancy