Conference misery::feline_v1

    Roberta,
    
    There are different types of cardiomyopathy.  Some of them are
    genetically transmitted, and others are diet related.  A few years
    ago, it was discovered that Taurine deficiency could lead to cardio
    (dilated, I believe, but I am unsure).  That is when all the cat
    food companies increased the amount of Taurine in their foods. 
    
    As for the genetically transmitted type, I have to admit, I am in
    the dark.  But, the information that you gave about the queens
    isn't really enough, without knowing about the sire's lines.  It
    is okay for the two queens to be related, they aren't being bred to
    each other anyway.  But, is the sire related to both queen's lines?
    And if so, how closely.  Does your breeder keep in touch with the
    people she bought her breeding cats from?  If so, she should get
    on the phone and find out if cardio has ever shown up in any of
    their cats.  I will see if I can dig up any information on Cardio
    at home.  
    
    Also, the Winn Foundation is currently funding a research project 
    on Cardio.  You might want to call CFA to get info on how to get in 
    touch with those doctors involved with the study.  A brief presentation
    was given to us at the Winn Foundation dinner at the CFA annual.
    It mostly just outlined the different types of cardio, and didn't
    get into the genetics very much (they only had 20 minutes to speak).
    
    Jo

    Another thought, since this is a repeat breeding of Shelby and Kelsey
    I would be inclined to think that there would be a higher chance
    of a kitten developing it than if it came from another litter. 
    How many litters has the other queen had?  Any problems with those
    kittens?
    
    How many generations are on your pedigree?  Do you see any of the
    same cats on the top half (the sire's line is on the top) that are
    also on the bottom half (the dam's line is on the bottom).  Even
    still, if there are cats that are the same, that doesn't mean that
    those cats carried the disease.  
    
    Your best bet would be to contact the researchers that the Winn
    Foundation is sponsoring.
    
    Jo
    

    Jo, thanks so much for replying.  I believe the type of cardiomyopathy
    Shelby died from is congestive but the vet will know more once the
    pathologists report comes back.
    
    When I look at Kelsey and Shelby's pedigrees, I see no related cats
    in their backgrounds.  All of the names are different.  Back when
    I was researching catteries, I was told to stay away from one in
    my area because there is cardiomyopathy in the lines.  The Ragdoll
    breed hasn't been around that long and it is quite probable that
    Linda had some similiar lines.  Linda has only been breeding Ragdolls
    for 2 years and only has 1 or 2 litters a year.  This is her first
    incidence.  She has remained good friends with the woman she purchased
    her cats from.  If this woman has any scruples at all, she will
    not lie to Linda when Linda contacts her.  From what I understand,
    this woman had 15 queens & about 3 or 4 studs before going out of
    business and selling the cats.  I cannot believe that she had a
    problem-free cattery.  If Linda cannot get some answers, then I
    will get them myself.
    
    As I receive more information, I will enter it.  Thanks for sharing
    whatever you could.  Every little bit helps.
    
    
    /Roberta
    

    Jo, the other queen has had about 3 or 4 litters.  No problems to
    date.  Linda has kept a few of the kittens from those litters (altered)
    to show as either Ragdolls or HHPs.  The oldest is 1 1/2; the youngest
    is 10 months.
    

    Roberta, you keep gathering information, and so will I.  I would
    be inclined to not take another kitten till you have a little more
    information under your belt.  I don't know if Cardio is a recessive
    gene or a dominant, or if there is even a gene for it.
    
    15 queens and 3-4 studs is a bigger cattery than I would feel
    comfortable with, but is not large by everyone's standards.  Having
    a large cattery doesn't always mean that there will be health problems,
    but it can increase the *chances* that there will be health problems.
    The number of cats alone doesn't mean much, the breeding methods,
    cattery conditions, and soundness of the stock are more a contributing
    factor than the number of cats.
    
    I will check around at home tonight for more information for you.
    
    Jo

    Roberta,
    
    I just discovered that I am currently in possesion of a pamphlet
    about Congestive (Dilated) Cardiomyopathy in Cats, that was put
    out by the Winn Foundation.  It lists the Doctor as Paul D. Pion
    who is at University of California - Davis.  You might want to contact
    him.
    
    I will read through the pamphlet and see if there is anything else
    you might want to know.  It mostly deals with Taurine supplementation
    as a way to cure cardio.
    
    Jo

    Jo, I just got off the phone with Cornell and the Dr. Saidla feels
    that Shelby died of dilative cardiomyopathy.  He also said that
    not enough research has been done on it to determine whether or
    not it is genetically linked, or acquired as the cat matures.  He
    also feels that most breeders who have been breeding cats for a
    number of years eventually run into this problem.  His advice to
    me is to take the new kitten and have an EKG done on both he and
    Kelsey.  Expensive and it might not show up on the first XRAY but
    would give me some piece of mind.  His overall feeling is that Shelby's
    incident could have been "just one of those freaky things."  But
    he can't say that for sure.  What he did do was provide the name
    of an excellent cardiologist at Cornell whom he feels I should contact.
    He also said that in regards to Taurine, sometimes an increase helps,
    other times it doesn't.
    
    Do you have a phone number for Dr. Pion?
    
    Thanks!
    Roberta
    

    No number for Dr. Pion at UC - Davis was listed in the pamphlet.
    
    Maybe you could have your breeder do the EKG on the new kitten,
    and you do the one on Kelsea.  That would split the cost up a bit.
    When Linebacker died, they suspected Cardio at first, but later
    that was proven to be incorrect.  The radiographs showed an enlarged
    heart, which led the first vet to the cardio diagnosis.  A radiologist
    saw the x-rays and said that young kittens often show an enlarged
    heart, and that it doesn't mean anything in some cases.  Maybe you
    should ask the Cornell vets about that, in case the kitten shows
    an enlarged heart.  I didn't follow up on it since the necropsy
    showed Hydrocephaly as the cause of death.
    
    Jo

    My vet called me this morning after speaking with Tufts.  Here is
    what they told him.
    
    Shelby died of Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy.  The muscle was definitely
    diseased, although there was no change in heart size or muscle
    thickness.  They feel the lack of changes are due to the fact that
    it happened so suddenly because with Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy,
    thickness of the muscle is usually very evident.  As far as being
    genetically linked, not enough research has been conducted to make
    this determination.  They wished they could give me a cut and dry
    answer and I wished I could have received one.  One thing's for
    sure:  hypertrophic cardiomyopathy is not linked to a taurine
    deficiency so all the taurine in the world could not have cured
    Shelby.
    
    I am going to try to reach Dr. Pion at UC Davis today.  The
    cardiologist at Cornell is out of town for a few days and I have
    left a message with her secretary for her to call me when she returns.
    
    An ultrasound can be conducted on both Kelsey and the new kitten
    which will give the vet a moving picture of what's going on.  However,
    it will only tell him what's happening *now* and would probably
    need repeating every six months to a year or so.  He could also
    do an EKG and XRAYS but again, it will only tell us what is happening
    now; not tomorrow or a month or even a year from now.  It is very
    costly to do ($100 to $150 per cat).
    
    I still feel empty inside.  Every person I speak to says something
    different.  The vet who treated Shelby in his final moments was
    not his regular vet.  He is the vet I take Chauncey, Nikki, and
    T.K. to and I like him a lot.  Kelsey and Shelby started out at
    the Framingham Animal Hospital and I started to switch them over
    because it was quite a distance from the house (I love the vets
    at Framingham).  The vet from Framingham called me last night and
    I told her what happened to Shelby.  She felt from my story that
    he could have thrown a blood clot which would not necessarily have
    shown up in the autopsy.  She also feels that cardiomyopathy is
    not genetically linked and she has treated littermates where one
    has died from it and the other is fine.  She said it often happens
    in purebreds, especially if you're dealing with a breed that has
    a small gene pool.  As you continue to breed within that same gene
    pool, it becomes smaller and smaller, the cats get overbred, and
    you end up with problems.  I hope I understood her right and explained
    this correctly.  I know that Ragdoll breeders are dealing with a
    small gene pool (I've talked to *a lot* of breeders) and each cat
    can be traced back to the same 3 or 4 cats in the first generation.
    Each time you breed down generations, you are increasing your chances
    for problems which is why outcrossing is important.  Linda *needs*
    to find out some anwers from the woman she purchased her cats from.
    Right now, she is the only person who can help us.
    
    /Roberta
    

    Roberta, 
    
    From what I understand, even if it was genetically linked, it doesn't
    mean that every kitten in the same litter will get it.  There is
    a very good chance that Kelsea will never develop it.
    
    Also, if you take just about any pedigree back far enough, you will 
    find that a small group of individuals were the basis for the start 
    of a new breed.  I can take my Birman pedigrees back to a small
    group of French cats that are in almost all Birman pedigrees.  In
    my lines, that takes about 15 generations.  Some other lines, it
    takes only 6-10 generations.  
    
    From the descriptions that you have given of your Ragdoll pedigrees,
    it doesn't sound like your breeder was doing anything but outcrossing.
    You said that you didn't find any similar cats in the pedigree between
    the sire and the dam.  If the breeder she bought from was in-breeding,
    then that would show up in your pedigree too.
    
    I think that maybe this is just one of those things that happened.
    Kelsea and the new kitten will probably be safe from it.  If you
    learn anything else, please share it with us.
    
    Jo

    Roberta, 
    
    Are you sure that your notes were entered as replies to this topic?
    I have noticed that you have started two other topics in the last
    couple of days #2657 and #2658 (I think those are the numbers).
    Perhaps you entered "write" instead of "answer" and thus started
    two new topics instead.
    
    Jo

    Jo, thank you!  I am losing my mind!!  Talk about feeling silly!
    My apologies to the moderators -- would you please help me move
    #2658 as a reply to this note.  Thanks -- I'm a real novice with
    notesfiles!
    
    Jo - can you make heads or tails of that information?  Part of me
    is fuming with anger that cardio exists in many Ragdoll catteries
    and breeders are ignoring the problem, chocking it up to "just one
    of those things."  They should be recognizing the pattern and trying
    to trace it back to the lines it is happening, don't you think?
    I stayed away from a particular cattery in my area after hearing
    stories that she bred several cats that died of cardio.  Now I am
    finding out that the disease is prevalent in several catteries and
    nothing is being done to stop it.  Obviously I can't stop people
    from breeding Ragdolls but I hope to make the buying public aware
    that problems do exist.  I guess breeders feel that since nothing has
    been proven that cardio is genetically linked, it is okay to keep
    on breeding the cats.
    
    I could go on and on and on but if I do, the moderators *will* end
    up deleting my note!!
    
    
    /Roberta
    

    Roberta,
    
    I just don't know what to say.  I attempted to reply earlier, but
    couldn't find the right words.  I think that not all breeders who
    lose cats to cardio are doing it knowingly.  Take Linda for instance.
    She had no idea that the cats she had bought might be carrying the
    disease.  Many of these breeders become breeders on a whim.  They
    don't know that they need to find out about possible fatal diseases
    in the line.  Some breeders do breed for the money.  Those people
    probably are less concerned with things like genetically transmitted
    diseases.  I just don't know.
    
    What I do know is that I am sorry that you had to lose Shelby. 
    I am also sorry that this experience has made you afraid to ever
    get another purebred cat.  There are lots of purebred cats in the
    world that are healthy.  Unfortunately, in our little world (here
    in Feline) we have seen lots of people having health problems with
    their purebred cats.  I can understand that you are reacting to
    the hurt of losing Shelby, but I hate to see you cut yourself off
    from the love that another, healthy purebred cat could give you.
    
    Jo

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Note 2658.0                         More info                         No replies
FSHQA1::RWAXMAN "A Cat Makes a Purrfect Friend"      32 lines   8-JUL-1989 22:14
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    I talked to Linda on Friday who talked to the breeder she got her
    Ragdolls from.  Three Ragdolls that this breeder sold also died of
    cardiomyopathy.  They were from three different mothers.  Two of
    those mothers are in Kelsey and Shelby's pedigrees.  Linda neglected
    to find out who the sires were which would have helped.  I believe
    the woman had been breeding Ragdolls for at least 5 years.  Prior
    to that she bred Persians and Birmans and said she lost 3 of those
    breeds to cardiomyopathy as well.  All of this happened within a
    10 year time span (Ragdolls, Persians, and Birmans).
     
    Linda then contacted a Ragdoll cattery in Illinois where she has done
    stud service.  This breeder has lost one cat to cardio within a two year
    time span.
    
    Linda also has a friend who has been breeding Himalayans for about
    9 or 10 years and lost 2 cats to cardio.
    
    I think that the more information I gather, the more afraid I become.
    My search for the "right" answer is not amounting to anything. 
    I must admit, though, that in the future, I will stick with mixed
    breed cats.  I have seen too many close friends of mine lose purebred
    cats to one disease or another within the last few months and frankly,
    I cannot bear another heartbreak like this.  No offense to you
    breeders; I know that all of you are dedicated, responsible, people who
    are very concerned with improving your chosen breeds and promoting
    their health and longevity.  I also know that mixed breed cats have died
    of cardio too.  Maybe as I learn more about the disease, my feelings
    will change, but right now, losing Shelby still has me feeling very
    helpless and empty.
    
    

    Jo, I understand what you are saying and you're right.  I know I
    am being cynical and it is probably because I am still hurting.
    But you are correct in saying that most breeders get into breeding
    on a whim.  Linda did.  She knew nothing about genetics or inheritable
    diseases.  That doesn't make her or any other breeder a bad person.
    She has a genuine love for the cats and is very particular about
    who she sells kittens to.  She loves to show and promote the breed.
    And she keeps a lot of the kittens she breeds because "they are
    too cute to part with."  I don't blame her for what happened to
    Shelby.  She has been wonderful to me.  And I know that you would
    do the same for one of your kitten buyers if you were in Linda's
    shoes.
    
    I'm sure that one day my viewpoint will change.  In fact, I know
    it will.  Guess I just need more time to come to terms with Shelby's
    death.  Writing everything down has certainly helped.  Thanks for
    sharing your thoughts with me.
    
    
    /Roberta
    

    Besides Roberta, it just means that you may give a home to a little
    shelter furface that otherwise not get a home.  I don't think that's
    so awful.  Hang in there.
    

    I wanted to report back with some more information -- I've been
    collecting a lot of it!
    
    My breeder frequently takes her animals to the University of
    Pennsylvania Veterinary Hospital and spoke to one of the genetics
    experts about Shelby.  I called this Dr. personally to hear the
    information first-hand and what she told me was very interesting
    indeed.
    
    To back up a bit, the autopsy report from Tufts revealed changes
    in the heart *suggestive* of cardiomyopathy but they weren't sure
    if that's exactly what it was.  They found lesions in his heart
    and areas of necrosis and fibrosis, and the air cells of his lungs
    were hypertrophied.  Some areas of heart muscle were replaced with
    dead tissue.  He had granulomatous pneumonia in his lungs.
    
    The genetiscist (sp?) at U.P. said they have seen a few Ragdoll
    kittens with the same disease and all of them died between 6 and
    9 months.  They feel it is a heart disease but one that is much
    different from what they see in other cats, hence, it is breed
    specific.  All of the Ragdoll kittens they saw never even had a
    chance to make it to the vet like Shelby did.  Their owners said
    they just dropped over dead.  The woman I spoke with is very interested
    in doing more research but they only see cases at the time of autopsy
    so it is difficult to find out how and why this is happening.  It
    could be viral, bacterial, or hereditarily linked; they just don't
    have enough information to go on right now.  What they do want are
    copies of Shelby's veterinary records, from day 1 right on up to
    the autopsy report.  They want to be able to help the breed and
    the only way to do that is to study the histories of the kittens
    that died.  This woman seemed extremely interested in Shelby's case,
    took my name and number, and promised to call back with any other
    information the school is able to acquire.  The Pennsylvania area
    is packed full of Ragdoll breeders so I'm not surprised that they
    know more than the specialists in this area.
                      
    Just wanted to put this in -- at the start of this note I was searching
    frantically for information and after many weeks of research, finally
    feel confident that I've acquired enough.
    
    
    /Roberta
    

    Roberta, 
    
    I think that this is a start in the right direction.  The Winn
    Foundation will fund breed specific studies, but they require that
    the breeders/exhibitors/fanciers provide half of the funds, and
    there also has to be a vet willing to do the research.  You may
    be able to get a study going on this problem in the Ragdolls.
    
    I know that it sounds like an impossible task, but the Aby breed
    was able to pull it together over Renal Amylidosis, and the Burmese
    breed did it too with the genetic problems they are having.  Maybe
    by spreading the word within your breed, you could stir up enough
    interest.
    
    Keep us informed,
    
    Jo

    Roberta -
       We have made two donations to the Winn Foundation so far from
    the Silver Lining Memorial gift.  If that can be used in any way
    let me know.
      Nancy DC