Conference misery::feline_v1

    Jo, I don't know how far you are from these places, but there are
    two emergency vet places that are run by large groups of vets
    with regular offices, who have banded together to have a vet place
    open after normal hours, so they can get some sleep, presumably.
    I have been at the Peninsula Veterinaty Emergency Clinic on Middlefield 
    Rd in Palo Alto a number of times.  The other one is in San Jose;
    I have no personal experience with it.  I believe it is listed under
    Veterinary Emdergency hospitals in the yellow pages. Lucky Katy, it
    sounds like you did all the right things, but alternative vets 
    emergency places are something to keep in mind.
    

    Karen, thanks for the tip, but I am really pretty far from the Emergency
    Hospitals in San Jose.  I used the one in Campbell once, and it
    was okay, but I felt that I was better off on my own this time.
    I figured they would want to spay Katy too, and my best bet was
    to stabilize her until we could see Dr. Rue.  I cannot say enough
    good things about Dr. Rue.
    
    There are about 5 vets in Morgan Hill, and after the occurences
    in the past few months, I will never go to any of them again.  Had
    I gone to Dr Rue with both Jesse and Linebacker, the outcome might
    have been different.  No sense in thinking about that now tho...
    
    Jo

    Good for you, Jo!  I guess following your instincts is still the
    best way to go in most situations - a rule that I believe in very
    much.  Sorry I can't offer anything about your info request - I
    hope things work out for the best for you.  Glad mom and babies
    are ok for now.  
    
    Good Luck,
    
    E.T.

Jo,

One of our queens had a pyometria infection recently.  She recovered, and 
is now pregnant.

If you'd like to share experiences, give Eileen a call some evening.  (I 
don't have all the details.)  I do know that our vet used a "new" procedure 
as part of the treatment.  (Our vet is "Buzz" Brodie; the one whose kids 
E.T. is putting through college; although we help (^8 !)

Our number is 603-465-7167.

Ray

    I too am glad to hear that Kaitlin is doing well.  I think of
    her and you often.
      Nancy DC
    

    re:4
    
    Ray, I just pay tuition - you must take care of board & room and
    meals!!!!
    
    BTW, Pashenka is FINE and really handsome!!!  pass it along
    to Eileen's mom.  He will be 2 this August!  How time do go by!
    
    E.T.

    Well, I thought it was time to update this note.  Kaitlin, the queen
    who the note was about, recovered from her pyo surgery without any
    complications last year.  Thankfully, she didn't come back into
    season until 8 months later.  In the meantime, her litter grew and
    developed.  My Moody Blue was one of those kittens, as was Linda's
    Moonstruck.  
    
    When Kaitlin came back into season in February, we rebred her. 
    Things were going along great.  She was due on April 20.  At about
    57 days gestation, Kaitlin aborted her litter.  I am not sure why
    or how it happened.  A week later, she was in season again.  Because
    of her previous pyometra, we had to breed her again right away.
    She was rebred and then three weeks later, she started acting funny.
    She would growl to herself in her sleep.  She was eating, drinking,
    and acting normal when awake.  We took her in for bloodwork, and
    discovered a very high white blood cell count--evidence of another
    pyometra.  This time she had to be spayed.  
    
    In the meantime, Joui, one of my other queens was showing signs
    of pyometra.  Due to the apparent success of the procedure with
    Kaitlin the year before, we opted for surgery on Joui too.  She
    has recovered well.  It has been a month, and she is now in season
    and will be bred.  I will keep you informed on how this one goes.
    
    I am afraid that perhaps after the surgery, the uterus isn't elastic
    enough to carry the litter full term.  We will be waiting to see
    what happens with Joui.
    
    A kitten that I bred and sold for breeding, Dreamer, was diagnosed
    with pyometra recently too.  She was only 1 year old, and had been
    in season constantly from 6 months on.  We were waiting for her
    to reach a year old before breeding her.  Before we could, she came
    down with pyometra.  The owners vet treated her with prostaglandins
    and antibiotics.  The prostaglandins cause the uterus to contract,
    thus expelling the infection.  Dreamer is doing well so far, but
    it is too soon to know the outcome of her situation either. 
    
    Any others out there that have some experience to share with pyometra?
    Since we have a lot of new breeders in the file, I think that sharing
    this information will be helpful for all of us.
    
    Jo

    Wild guess:  could your cats be harboring the bacteria all the 
    time, but it just flares up under stress, like pregnancy?  Would
    treating them all simultaneously with an antibiotic and scrubbing
    down the house or somesuch help.....
    

    The bacteria is Ecoli, which is normally found in the intestinal
    tract.  It is thought to be introduced during breeding, but cats
    that have never been bred can come down with pyometra too.  Many
    different bacteria's can be responsible for pyometra, it just happens
    that all of my cases have been caused by ecoli.  I have asked the
    Doc if there was some way I could test my male cat to see if he
    is harboring ecoli and then transmitting it during breeding.  She
    said no, that the introduction of the ecoli is thought to be mechanical
    rather than venereal (meaning that he, um, hits the wrong spot first,
    then the right spot, thus introducing the bacteria--rather than
    him carrying it in his sperm or body and introducing it).
    
    I have always been very good about disinfecting everything in the
    house with Nolvasan.  I have a call into the vet right now to see
    aobut the advisability of keeping a queen that has previously had
    pyometra on antibiotics during the breeding and pregnancy.  She
    will probably not advise it though, she is very conservative, as
    I am, and both of us feel that it is unwise to medicate a cat longterm
    as the bacteria may build up resistance to the only thing that can
    kill it.  Also, there is the effect of the antibiotic on developing
    fetuses to consider.
    
    I have been researching pyometra complex and have read some interesting
    things.  One of my texts states that any female cat that is unspayed
    can become a victim of pyometra, regardless of age.  It also says
    that ovulation plays a large part in this illness.  Artifical breedings
    and sterile breedings will up the chances of a cat getting pyo quite
    substantially.  
    
    Jo

Hi Jo,

When it rains, it pours, huh?  I have just had 3 HORRIBLE months, with
vet bills...well, we could have gone on a l_o_n_g trip abroad, or bought
*more cats*!  heh heh.  (Fortunately, I am able to pay Angell Mem. Hosp
at $xxx per month -- probably for the rest of my life BUT ALL THE MOMCATS
SURVIVED!)

Blue Frost just got spayed.  She didn't have pyometra, and although she
came from a line that needed C-sections, she DIDN'T need any C-sections.
But of 2 litters, only 1 kitten ever survived.  So something was wrong.
So she was just spayed.

Karma lost a pregnancy at about 4 weeks gestation.  Never had a cat
miscarry before.  She had a nasty pyometra, and we went the prostaglandin
route to clean her out, and I will breed her again ASAP.  (That seems
counter-intuitive to me, but everyone seems to agree with the recommendation.)
We don't know if she will successful conceive or carry to term...

Then there is Farina.  Poor Farina.  She is the cat I imported from
Denmark last year.  She finally came into heat, and was bred successfully.
But she needed an emergency C-section.  There were 4 babies, all a good size
and nice and healthy.  So I brought them all home.  Farina was not being a
good Momcat, so I sat with her for about 36 hours (this was a weekend -- I
brought her home on a Friday night), hand fed the babies, and got her to
mother them finally.  Then while she was running around my bedroom, I reached
under my bed to get her to put her with her babies, and I got her plus a
handful of blood.  Lots of blood.  We rushed her back to Angell.  She was
having a uterine hemorrhage.  Too weak to spay;  gave her medications to
contract the uterus, fluids, and started thinking about transfusions.  She
was too weak to care for the babies, so they were hand fed.  THEY GOT NO
COLOSTRUM.  So...while Momcat was hovering, the babies started dying one
by one.  Then, when there was one left, we tried something new -- serum
transfusions from Momcat (who had little left to share, by the way!).  This
was to get the maternal antibodies into the kitten, along with the heavy
hitter antibiotics, etc.  The kitten ("Danish Pastry") is now bouncing around
the house!

Then Farina got pyometra...REAL BAD.  The cat sitter noticed she was sick
last Monday morning, while I was away.  She rushed the cat back to Angell.
Vet called me shortly thereafter, to say she needed surgery NOW.  So she
was spayed...and when they opened her up, it turned out her uterus had
ruptured, and she had PERITONITIS.  Deadly.  (often, not always)  They
called me back and asked if I wanted her put to sleep, she was in such
bad shape (infected and dead tissue throughout her abdominal cavity, yuck).
I gasped "NO!"  

They have never seen a recovery like Farina's.  SHE IS COMING HOME TONIGHT!
I will have to give her injections of antibiotics until she is ready for
pills, but that is no problem.

*****

Note:  I used to put queens on amoxi for a few days before and after
breeding, and then a few days before due date.  I will start doing that
again!

Sigh,
	Pennie

    Pennie,
    
    Your's and my vet bills probably look like the national debt!  Mine
    was over a $1000 at one point.  Doc Rue is being great about it
    though.  She is allowing us to pay it monthly too, and it is getting
    down to a manageable level now.  But, I have an appointment for
    Kalliste today for bloodwork.  
    
    Since the ecoli is being introduced through breeding, we are looking
    to see if he has ecoli on his penis or something.  He could just
    be a bad aim! :^)  Anyway, he is being checked out today.  I sense
    more vet bills on the way.  I have this sinking feeling that Joui
    will get pyo again and will have to be spayed.  
    
    The important thing that I have learned is that if your cat comes
    down with pyometra, it is imperative that you do a culture and
    sensitivity to determine the type of bacteria, and what to use on
    it.  Of course, if your cat is also nursing kittens, that is even
    more important since most antibiotics bleed through to the milk.
    
    If your cat has a closed pyometra, the only option is spaying so
    far.  The pyo has to be open and draining for the surgery or
    prostaglandins to work.  I have several friends who have used the
    prostaglandins and their cats have successfully carried subsequent
    litters to term, so there is hope.  So far, I have done two clean
    out surgeries, but haven't been able to have a litter carried to
    term.  But, we have only tried once.  Joui will be the second try.
    
    In the future, if I have a cat with pyo I will try the prostaglandins.
    The surgery is very expensive, about $500.  In the case of Kaitlin,
    she had to be spayed eventually.  Her spay was very expensive too,
    since it was a "toxic spay".  She is doing fine now though, and
    is off antibiotics.  
    
    Jo

    Hi again, Jo!
    
    Did you mean $1000 or $10000???  $1000 is a drop in the bucket for
    me at this point.  But how can I say "just let the cat die"??? 
    If it were an older and/or terminally ill cat, that is another
    story, but for a young cat that might be saved?  I used to spend
    "everything plus" on my children.  Now it is my cats, who are, of
    course, our pseudo-children.
    
    I'll just be paying the vet for the rest of my life.  And then some!
    Some of the vets there (and other people too!) think I am a bit
    loony about this, and I admit it all!
    
    	Crazy_Cat_Lady

    I am with you all the way Pennie!  I can't let a cat die either.
    They are our babies, afterall.  With the $1200 or so that I owed,
    I was actually getting a break.  It was about $500 to test all 20
    cats for FIV (two types of tests, labwork), $500 for the pyo surgery,
    $80 to spay the dog (she was at that age), $200 to spay and care
    for Kaitlin (post-op, etc), not to mention all the various other
    ultrasounds, bloodwork, etc.  It is actually probably closer to
    $2000, but I have gotten it down to about $600 or so.  I am just
    hoping for some smooth sailing from here on out.  
    
    At least now I know that I was right, this was Cat Hell Spring!
    I had suspected it! ;^)
    
    Jo

    I NEED to ask a question.
    
    Why do the breeders put the poor females through all this? It would
    seem to me that the humane thing to do would be to spay them once
    Pyo is detected and not put them through the surgery and then turn 
    right around and BREED them "HOPING" that no problems arise and that
    you have healthy kittens. Is improving the breed (your words not mine)
    really that important?
    
    Barbara

    I will tell you why I have done it.  Some of the reasons are emotional,
    and some of them are based on what is best for the breeding program.
    My breeding program has a definite goal in mind, and the queen's
    that came down with pyo were both very important to the program.
    My breeding program would have come to a screeching halt without
    them.  Kaitlin was the last whole female of her line in the United
    States.  She is also a very loving cat, who has had two homes before
    mine.  The emotional part of the decision was based on my not wanting
    to have to give her up, something that breeders have to do if they
    are no longer using a cat in their breeding program.  Time and space
    limitations make it difficult, if not impossible to keep cats that
    aren't being used in the program.  The logical reason for trying
    to keep her whole was her importance in the program, and knowing
    that I would not be able to find a replacement for her should I
    have to spay her.
    
    A breeder doesn't make this decision lightly.  Had the pyo occured
    in a female that wasn't as important to my breeding goals, that
    female probably would have been spayed.  The recovery from the pyometra
    surgery isn't any more difficult than the recovery from the toxic
    spaying, but there is future risk involved, namely, once they have
    pyometra, the chances of having it again are greater than their
    original chances of getting it.  
    
    The point in breeding them again right away (this depends on the
    cat herself, sometimes you don't have to breed them again right
    away.  But, you cannot allow them to go through a season without
    breeding them cause your risks will increase) is to prevent the
    recurrence, and TO GET A KITTEN OUT OF THE LITTER SO THAT CAN BE
    USED TO CONTINUE WITH THE BREEDING PROGRAM.  Literally years of
    work can be down the drain when your foundation queens or your stud
    have to be neutered or spayed.   By keeping one of the offspring,
    you can spay the queen without impacting the breeding program in
    a major way.
    
    With Kaitlin, she was spayed a few weeks ago, and it was unfortunate
    (mostly for emotional reasons now) but I have kept her son, Moody,
    from her last litter.  Also, one of her daughters was placed in
    a breeding home, with an agreement that if need be, I can purchase
    a kitten back at a later date.  Kaitlin's original pyo surgery also
    had the added reason of trying to save her two day old litter. 
    Had she been spayed, she had a very high risk of losing her milk.
    
    I opted for Joui's pyometra surgery because 1) we caught the pyometra
    early 2) her importance in the breeding program.  She is my first
    Birman queen, and has had three grand champions in two litters.
    I will have to keep one of her female kittens from the next litter
    in order to continue the plan.  I cannot replace Joui.  Her sire
    and dam are both spayed and neutered now.
    
    So, you see, we have both logical and emotional reasons for doing
    what we do.  I don't expect you to understand it.  I would be very
    suprised if you did.  I think that only another breeder can understand
    this type of thing.
    
    Jo

    re .14
    
    Farina did NOT ever have pyometra before.  I had no reason to think
    that she would get it.  She had had a uterine hemorrhage that the
    vets considered a "fluke".  No reason to expect it again.  When
    she got the pyometra, she was taken to the vet ASAP, and rushed
    into emergency surgery.  Everything that was done was done with
    the single goal of saving her life, and NOT for future breeding.
    As she was being spayed and cleaned out, the vets asked if I wanted
    them to put her to sleep, because she was in such bad shape.  The
    vets spent a lot of effort and I spent a lot of money and emotional
    energy in keeping her alive so that she could be a happy non-breeding
    cat.
    
    I know many other breeders would have done the same thing.  And
    I think Farina, could she speak, would be happy that she was "put
    through all this" so she could play with her toys and sleep on the
    bed and purr on laps...for the rest of her life.
    
    	Pennie

    Another example (but not of pyo):
    
    Two years ago, I had a litter of 3 kittens, all of whom were
    about to be sold as pets.  At their 3 month checkup, we found out
    that one of them had a SERIOUS heart abnormality.  *IF* he survived
    [expensive] heart surgery, he would have a perfectly normal life
    expectancy and quality.  If he did not have surgery, he would have
    died slowly within a year.
    
    He had the surgery.  And he survived.  And after visiting him in
    the ICU, and watching his recovery at home in my bedroom (where
    he was born, by the way), NO WAY was I parting with this little
    guy.
    
    The vets assured me that it was NOT an inherited condition.  And
    he turned out to be an EXCELLENT show cat [so much for how well
    I can predict, huh?].  But I neutered him anyway.
    
    He loves sleeping under the covers, traveling on my lap to shows,
    eating, and playing with any kittens that happen to be around.
    
    He is GRAND CHAMPION Meowsky's Blue Hope!  (Master Grand in CFF)