Conference misery::feline_v1

    Rosie -
      I have a hard time with your "backyard breeding"  especially since
    you are breeding "mutts"!  I have a wonderful 2 yr old neutered
    male foster cat who desperately needs a home!  This conference is
    FULL of wonderful cats "in desperate need" of homes and folks can't
    place them.  I feel that you are not being a responsible cat owner!
      I feel that you should get you female and your male neutered ASAP.
    Send some of those folks waiting in line to the kittens and cats
    in this conference or to their local shelters.  Every litter you
    bring into this world results in that many other cats being put
    to sleep - literally!  
      Last year over $1 MILLION was spent JUST to euthanize unwanted
    cats and dogs.  With statistics like that there is NO excuse for
    deliberately breeding cats - licensed, responsible, breeders
    excluded, of course.  And I'm talking about people who spend
    years studying genetics and $$$ to show and care for their cats.
    
      I hope you can understand what I'm saying here and not hear
    this as an attack on you.  I have a WONDERFUL sweet little
    scottish fold and I wanted to breed him more than anything, so
    I could have another fold, but I didn't.  I got him neutered
    and I can always buy another fold from the same breeder I bought
    Dundee from.  So I really reall know how you feel.
      I hope you'll think about this and get you cats neutered.  Then
    go visit some shelters with your friends and help them discover
    the wonderful feline companions that are waiting for them there!
      Take care
       Nancy DC
    

    I agree with Nancy!  There are liscensed, responsible, breeders
    out there who breed bobtailed cats!  You could run into serious
    problems trying to breed for the bobtailed look if you are not informed
    about genetics, dominant and recessive genes and mutations.  And
    what about the kittens that come out with normal tails?  Can you
    find loving, responsible homes for them as well??
    
    I don't think you are going to get a lot of positive feedback from
    the liscensed, responsible breeders in this file.  Other notes along
    these lines have been introduced and the responses were not favorable
    at all.
    
    Sorry to come on strong... we in Feline care a great deal about
    cats and controlling unnecessary breedings.
    
    
    /Roberta
    
    
    

    Perhaps the breeders can help me out here, but I seem to recall reading
    that when you breed two tailess cats together, isn't the result usually
    a still-born litter?

   Deb

    Since your cat doesn't not appear to be a purebred Japanese Bobtail,
    her tail is probably a result of the manx gene.  The manx gene is
    a lethal gene, and if you breed to cats with that type of gene
    together, the resulting litter will probably be reabsorbed by the
    mother's body prior to deliver (if you are lucky), or they will
    be stillborn, or born with deformities.  You should not do the breeding
    you are planning between mother and son.
    
    Also, seven weeks is considered much too young to be taking the
    kittens away from the queen.  Most breeders will not let a kitten
    leave til it is at least 12 weeks old.
    
    Mom should also be given several months to recover from her last
    litter before you start considering breeding her again.  Eight weeks
    is way too soon to breed her again.  Her body needs time to recover.
    Pregnancy, delivery, and nursing deplete all of her body's resources.
    
    It is really great that you have all these people that want your
    kittens, but are you making them agree to spay and neuter their
    pets?  Or, like you, will they think that they too should produce
    litter after litter of mixed breed kittens.  As you can see, the
    numbers can escalate rapidly.  I too feel that you should stop this
    type of breedings at once.  
    
    Jo

    A cat should only have one or two litters per year.
    
    I was just wondering if you are trying to kill your cat?  Have
    you done any reading on breeding?  Do you have a manx or a purebred
    Japanese bobtail - you should not inbreed as a backyard breeder.
    
    I am not going to say anything more because I will be more rude
    than I already have been. 

    
    thanks for your advice...as I said in my original message, the only
    reason I'm letting her have more kittens is because I have friends
    that want a bobtail kitten...I have never had any problem getting
    them good, happy homes...all my other cats and dogs are fixed (except
    for my Golden retriever which I am going to breed soon) and I am
    a responsible owner...I love my animals...they're my only family...I
    got 3 of my dogs and 3 of my cats from the local shelter...I think
    you should know that before you go and judge someone...
    
    I volunteered at the Sterling Shelter in Mass for over a year...I
    know about kittens and dogs and the overpopulation...it's funny
    because up here in Maine, they don't put the pets down unless they
    really have to...I had gotten a puppy in January and went back in
    May to get a cat and there sat the last puppy of the batch from
    the puppy I got in January...they know and value life also.
    
    
    I don't mean to sound angry, but you really shouldn't judge me or
    anyone else who just asks a question here...I know there are people
    who don't know or care, but I happen to do both...
    
    thanks again for the advice...I'm not planning on breeding
    professionally, I never said I was...I just wanted to ask a question
    and I got my answer...
    
    

    I'm not judging you - I'm just expressing an opinion of your actions.
    Everyone is entitled to that.
    
    Maybe in Maine they didn't have to put the animals to sleep, but
    things are much different in Massachusetts.  BTW - one of my 
    shelter cats has 1/2 tail!  I think she's part Manx so you can
    find one at a shelter.
    
    If you know all about the overpopulation problem, then I can't
    understand why you persist.  But that aside, you must now be
    aware that it is not in the best interest of the queen to breed
    her so soon after birthing.  It takes so much out of them.  Best
    to be patient and give her a chance to recover.  if you don't
    believe us, ask your vet.
    
    I hope you'll reconsider your actions and understand that if I
    didn't try to talk you out of this, I wouldn't think very much
    of myself.
      Good luck
       Nancy DC
    

    Well, overpopulation and opinions aside, as our breeding experts have
    pointed out, breeding the manx gene to another manx gene has some very
    serious problems, so I think that if you do wish to have more bobtail
    kittens, you'd want to find a non-bob dadcat to do the honors.
    
    Mary

    The truth is, that the Japanese Bobtail is a natural occuring cat
    in Japan - but, still when breeding two bobtails, the lines have
    to be carefully monitored to avoid having litters with no spines
    and other deformaties - that's why breeders are so careful when
    selecting a mate to breed - it's a very planned and studied
    well- thought out situation - too frequent litters will produce
    a very unhealthy litter and a very depleted mother.
    
    If these folks that want a tailless cat are interested in bobtails,
    I can provide you and them with the name of a bobtail breeder that
    will have kittens in either the fall or next spring if they are
    interested in a purebred - or, as a previous note suggested - check
    the shelters for tailless cats (not all tailless cats are manx). 
    Or a breeder in New Jersey that almost always has JBT kittens.
    
    It's not exactly the same as breeding a fold (Scottish fold to another
    Scottish Fold - when breeding folds, you must breed a fold to a
    straight ear - a Japanese Bobtail can be bred to another JBT providing
    the lines are right.                                          
    
    It would be a real shame if your mother kitty were bred to a male
    that was carrying a wrong gene and the whole litter had to be
    euthanized because of deformity - that's pretty traumatic for a
    momma kitty to have an unsuccessful time like that.
    

    Yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion, including the author of the
    base note. However, some of the opinions in these replies are coming
    across in a very judgmental (and in my opinion, hostile and down right
    rude) tone, and I don't blame the author of the base note for being
    offended. As a moderator, I'm asking nicely that folks consider how their
    words are coming across when stating an opinion. Before you post your
    reply, think about how would you feel if you had asked the question and
    someone responded to you the answer that you are about ready to post.

    Deb 
    Co-Moderator

    
    thank you Deb,
    
    a lot of the replies did come on heavy and if I wasn't an animal
    lover (I cry when a squirrel gets hit by a car), I really would
    think that you guys were being awfully rude and obnoxious...but,
    I understand that you're looking out for the best interest of my
    cat...that's why I asked the question...I don't want to see her
    hurt.
    
    have a good one,
    
    Rosie
    

    Just saw Deb's note so I decided to delete my last entry in this
    topic.  I thought I would start again.
    
    Please give your female at least six months off between litters,
    more time if she is over 2 years old, more time if she has more
    than four kittens, and more time if she nurses them longer than
    8 weeks.
    
    She should have her vaccinations boosted prior to each breeding.
    The kittens should be vaccinated at six weeks, nine weeks, and twelve
    weeks.
    
    Your cat should be tested for Feline Leukemia and vaccinated, assuming
    that you are letting her breed to stray toms.
    
    Please make up spay and neuter contracts to have your new owners
    sign.  This will at least make them aware of the overpopulation
    problem, and perhaps make them spay and neuter their pets.  It will
    also make them see that you are trying to be responsible about this.
    
    If you are gonna do it anyway, this is some good advice and may help 
    you protect your cat and her kittens.
    
    Jo
    

    
    hi,
    
    all the kittens that I have given away (3 litters, a total of 6
    kittens...she has small litters) have been fixed, given their shots
    and have regular visits with the vet (they even brush their teeth
    after every meal...)  I wouldn't have it any other way...
    
    I have a question for the breeders out there...are all of your cats
    (male and female) all inside cats???????  if not, how do you know
    that your males aren't out there making unwanted babies???????????
    I know with the female you can tell when she is in heat and you
    keep her inside, but what about the males, like the pure persian
    that mated with my little girl the first time she was in heat?
    I hope that you are aware of this factor, because if not, you're
    adding to the already bad problem at the shelters...something you
    and I are both against...think about it...
    
    Rosie
    

    Rosie,
    
    I think I can speak for the responsible *breeders* in this file and 
    answer your questions.  Yes, all of our cats are kept inside.  Always. 
    Period.
    
    I do not want to turn this into an indoor/outdoor discussion, but
    not one of my cats, the purebreds, or the household pets, are allowed
    outside.  My stud male was selected from carefully chosen lines
    and is invaluable.  I would not risk losing him by allowing him
    to roam outside.  I can also guarantee that he is not creating any
    mixed breed kittens.  I have worked hard in my breeding program
    and would not allow any of my Birmans to be bred indiscriminately. 
    Every time that one breeds a female cat, one is risking her life
    as well as the lives of her kittens.  One best be very well informed
    before putting their cat at such risk.
    
    All of my pet kittens are sold with neuter/spay, indoor only contracts,
    and I make follow up calls to ensure that the buyers are going through
    with their end of the contract.  I screen the buyers very carefully.
    
    I am glad to hear that you are looking out for the kittens you have
    produced so far.  Sounds like you have been lucky in finding them
    good homes.
    
    Litter size can be an indication of several things. She may be
    reabsorbing kittens, she may not be nutritionally sound,
    her body may not be able to support a larger litter due to the stress
    of raising the previous one.  These are things that you may want to 
    consider before breeding her again.
    
    Jo
    

    Rosie -
      I have applications for the Friends of Animals low cost spay
    certificates plus the list of participating vets which I will
    happily give you to give with the kittens when they're ready.
    Just send you mailstop and the number of applications you would
    like.
      Nancy DC
    
    p.s. I try very very hard to moderate my replies and hope that 
    you don't think I'm rude.
    

reclaimed note
                       <<< NOTES$:[NOTES$LIBRARY]FELINE.NOTE;1 >>>
                               -< Meower Power >-
================================================================================
Note 2509.16          mom and son bobtail mating???????????             16 of 16
RHYME::GERRY "Home is where the Cat is"               0 lines  26-MAY-1989 09:01
                -< Breeding should be left to "professionals". >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    As an Exotic Shorthair and Persian breeder, my cats are kept indoors
    only.
    
    Because I breed a popular breed, I really get upset by people who
    "breed" their pet quality kittens to produce more unregistered pet
    kittens for their friends.  I choose my cats carefully, show them,
    keep them healthy, and carefully select the proper pairs to breed
    together.  It costs alot of money!!!  It upsets me that I may not
    be able to sell my pet kittens for their real value because I have
    5 "backyard breeders" in my area.  Each persons that gets a kitten
    from a "backyard breeder" would probably have bought one from a
    legimate breeder.  Selling kittens helps defray some of a good breeders
    costs in improving the breed.  
    
    In my opinion, the only reason a cat should be bred is to improve
    the breed, anything else is simply irresponsible, even if you do
    have people waiting for the kittens.
    
    cin
    

    Yes, Kim, your right.
    
    When were breeding for show and breeder quality cats, we often get
    pets.  Not every kitten in the litter is going to be of a good enough
    quality to breed or show, or else, what would the point be!!!
    
    I don't try to produce pet quality kittens, but in trying to produce
    those kittens for the show ring, a good portion of the kittens aren't
    going to be good enough.  
    
    In my breed, Exotic Shorthairs, only half of my kittens will be
    shorthair.  The other half will be longhaired and look exactly like
    persians, these longhaired Exotics will be sold as pets to loving
    homes.  If I don't get nice quality kittens from a queen, she is
    spayed and placed in a pet home.  This is another sad part of being
    a breeder.  Each year, the cats are better than the year before,
    so your breeding stock has to be continually upgraded. Of course,
    the change in quality is more or less significant depending on the
    breed.  I think that Persians and Exotics are a faster changing
    breed than Maine Coons, for instance, so the queen that was exceptional
    this year may only be good next year.  
    
    I have had National Winners every year in CFF since the 1983/84
    show season, with the exception of 1985/86.  I took a year off after
    having Cat of the Year in 1984/85.  
    
    Thanks for bringing that up, Kim.  I don't want people to think
    that breeding for "pets" is okay if you have a registered cat. 
    Unfortunately, too many backyard breeders sell pet quality kittens
    with papers and these pets go on to make more pets and so on and
    so on and so on....
    
    If you love cats and can find a breed that you really like, and
    don't mind losing lots of money, then buy a nice, breeder or show
    quality cat from a reputable breeder.  Then work with other breeders
    to improve the breed.
    
    I figured my costs and income for about the first 5 years I was
    breeding, but the numbers were too depressing.  You can't even hope
    to break even.  I lost on average $5,000 - $8,000 a year.  Now,
    I just don't bother to figure it out.  It's my hobby, and I do it
    because I love the cats, I love the breed, and I love to see my
    cats win in the show ring.
    
    cin
    

    Cin,
    
    I think your reply was well said.  I, too, have yet to break even
    in breeding cats.  Last year's loss was close to $13,000.  I only
    hope that I can get that amount down a bit for next year.
    
    I often tell people who want to get into breeding that it is a great
    hobby if you love cats,...AND if you have a lot of money that you
    don't know what to do with!:^D
    
    My breed is also evolving right now.  Cats that were top quality
    a few years ago couldn't compete now.  Plus, we have that darn white
    spotting factor to deal with.  So, consequently, I do get some pet
    quality kittens.  
    
    I haven't been breeding nearly as long as you have, and I have yet
    to have a national winner, but there is always next year!!!
    
    Jo

Kim,

Rudeness is not just limited to name calling and insulting, although innuendo
that the author of the base note is irresponsible is just about the same
thing. The operative word is JUDGMENTAL, and I feel that when someone asks a
question and receives replies that come off as judgmental, often in charged
language, that is rude. Stating an opinion is one thing; attempting to force
it on someone else is quite another, and totally goes against the SPIRIT of
DIGITAL's Valuing Differences Policy. Valuing differences is so important a
concept in DIGITAL that it is incorporated into the policy statement from Ken
Olsen found in section 2.03. A synopsis of the spirit of that statement is
that we will *respect* and value different attributes of everyone, including
their beliefs, and that this valuing differences policy applies to company
sponsored social and recreational programs (VAXnotes falls under that
category). Furthermore, the policy states that "We shall provide a work
environment free from discrimination and harassment of any kind."

That brings us to 6.03 of the P&P which defines harassment to include
"unsolicited remarks". In this particular case, someone asked if there would
be any problems in mating two tailess cats (mother & son), and she received
multiple unsolicited comments about being irresponsible and the number of cats
put down each year because homes can't be found for them. She then basically
said, "I understand that but it isn't what I asked for, I don't want to hear
it and stop judging me." As a moderator, it is my job to step in, especially
when I see DEC policy violated. Unfortunately, some folks continued pressing
their case (although in a much nicer tone), attempting to justify it. Friends,
under orangebook policy, that could be construed as HARASSMENT (and it has
happened before). As one of the moderators of this conference, it is my job
not to let this go on. Furthermore, as a person that is somewhat familiar with
the US DIGITAL Policies & Procedures, and as a service to this community,
I am going to summarize the DEC policy on harassment. This summary is not
just my interpretation, but also the interpretation of other managers.
In a nutshell, if someone tells you "I don't appreciate those comments; stop
it", and you continue, that constitutes HARASSMENT, and if you don't stop,
the person that *feels* harassed has grounds to go to personnel  and file
harassment charges against you. And no matter how noble and sincere your
intentions, the chances are good that you will not win.

Folks, I think most of you know where I stand on the spay/neuter issue. And
while I don't agree with what .0 is doing, I have neither the right to judge
her nor to attempt to *force* my opinions on her, but I do have the the duty,
to make sure that anyone that holds an unpopular view can feel free to express
it in this conference without fear of being judged or feeling that he/she is
going to get beat-up. The bottom line is that it is not what so much what you
say, but how you say it, and to know when to stop. 

That said, no further value can be gained by continuing this discussion.
Further discussions on this vein will cause this note to be write locked. If
anyone has a problem with this, send me mail offline.  Feel free, however, to
continue discussing the mating of two tailess cats or the breeding issues.
      

Deb
Co-Moderator

I'm posting this memo in support of Deb's attempts to make us more
aware of the inherent responsibility we all have with regards to employee
conduct and Notesfiles.  I think many of us in FELINE (myself included)
can work a little harder at making our conference a place where all cat
lovers can feel comfortable.  I *know* that debate without acrimony
and insult (whether direct or innuendo) can take place in FELINE, we've
done it many times.  Sometimes it's helpful, when responding in a Note
that rubs you the wrong way or sticks in your craw, to 'sit' on the reply
for a little while before posting; or pass it by someone you consider
reasonable and objective.  I know that people are often not aware of how
disagreeable they are being in their disagreement.

Regards,
Donna

    p.s.  This memo is posted in DIGITAL and being discussed there.  I
          inadvertently took the date off it, but the memo was recently
          distributed.
=========================================================================
    
From:	NAME: BEL CROSS @VRO                
	FUNC: DIS                     
	TEL: 273-5464             <CROSS.BEL AT A10 at RELIEF at VRO>
To:	See Below
CC:	See Below

    There have been a number of complaints recently as to the abuses of 
    "Notes Files" and other computing resources.  Many more people have 
    become aware of excessive use for nonbusiness purposes and our 
    distribution of business communications not intended for wide 
    dissemination.  There are a number of specific policies which do exist, 
    but that are not being adhered to.  I think it's time for all cost 
    center managers, systems managers and notes files moderators to step up 
    and exercise their responsibility.
    
    During times like these when business is difficult we must take the 
    necessary steps to tighten up on the use of company resources, 
    especially those used for purposes other than direct business support.
    
    I have re-read the "Personnel Policies and Procedures" for the United 
    States, section 6.24 on Employee Conduct and Section 6.54 on Proper Use 
    of Digital Computers, Systems and Networks.  These two policies are 
    quite explicit on expectations and responsibilities.  I'm sure Europe 
    and GIA have similar policies.  It's time for us to manage to these 
    policies and stop turning our heads the other way when we see abuse.  
    
    Please forward to all of your managers so that we can bring this issue 
    to the attention of all managers in Digital.
    

    
    <many distributions deleted>