Conference misery::feline_v1

================================================================================
Note 2483.1              Ethoxyquin?  dangerous or not?                   1 of 1
FRAGLE::PELUSO                                        0 lines  19-MAY-1989 10:01
                             -< reply from canine >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 <<< CVG::WORK1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CANINE.NOTE;1 >>>
                             -< Gone to the Dogs >-
================================================================================
Note 2200.9                        Ethoxyquin                            9 of 27
WAV14::HELVE "What was the question ..... ?"        119 lines  17-MAY-1989 16:22
                                  -< Artcle >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
by Elaine D. Campbell     Cam-Belle Kennels      
(reprinted with permission from the author)  (but the typos are mine :)

                    "ETHOXYQUIN"    FRIEND or FOE ?

  Is there an enemy secretly hiding in our dog food? Is it lurking there,
slowly eating away at your dog's health until it finally takes its toll?
Are we paying high prices, and with ignorant confidence are we willing the
dishes and delivering this enemy to our eagerly waiting victims?
  For many years as a breeder, first of Poodles and then later Collies, I 
have fed a leading dog food. I do not mean grocery store food, but the 
expensive, so called, better brands found at your local dealers. I swore by
the food, and quite frankly my dogs were doing well - at least at first!
  I had been virtually free of whelping problems. My bitches came into heat
every six months like clockwork. They never missed, they gave birth easily
to 8 to 10 whelps, and the pups were strong and healthy with only an occas-
ional weak puppy.
  Then, a couple of years ago I noticed that my dogs overall appearance seemed
suddenly to be lacking. I really could not put my finger on the problem, but
they had just lost that extra bloom. Their coats appeared dry and rusty, their
skin flaky, and the pigmentation in their nose began to lighten in color.
  I spoke to my distributor, and at first he blamed it on my drinking water;
later, on my breeding program. When my customers who owned Labrador, Newfound-
lands, Collies (not necessarily my breeding), a Bernese Mountain Dog and Old
English Sheepdogs also began complaining of similar problems I began searching
for a new dog food.
  I received a phone call from the manufacturer asking me to promote their 
food in an advertising campaign. I quickly told them that I would not promote
any food that was causing such problems. They assured me that they were working
on the problem. (Surprise! It was no longer a problem with MY breeding program)
The problem lay with a zinc deficiency in the product. I promised them I would
not wait for the results and I backed up this promise by switching foods.
  In October 1987, I switched my dog food. Within one month my dogs began to
respond to the change. They became more active and alert. They followed later
with a total shed, but then came in with beautiful coats. I was impressed and
I immediately began promoting this product to puppy buyers and boarding clients.
  Without my awareness a change for the worse was in store for me. Suddenly,
my bitches started skipping heats. I bred a bitch and she missed. Well, that
happens to everyone at one time or another - I tried again. Results: two
puppies - one so weak it was unable to nurse. Even after substitute feedings
it finally died at 10 days old, after having gained 1/2 ounce.
  Then tragedy struck! My blue merle stud dog, the sire of just about every-
thing I owned, began drooling. When I checked his mouth for an obstruction I
noticed that the tissue was inflamed and had a very strong odor.
  A trip to the vet confirmed that he had an infection. What I was not prepared
for, however, was how serious this problem really was. Three different anti-
biotics failed to help. He went from being inflamed to having a total break-
down of tissue involving, not just the mouth, but down the throat also. The
drooling of saliva changed to the drooling of blood. Eating was a painful 
experience, yet he continued fighting for survival by never missing a meal.
Every day when I gathered up the dishes his was filled with blood.
  A biopsy confirmed that he was suffering from an immune breakdown triggered
by a virus or chemical. Since, to my knowledge, he had not been exposed to
any chemicals it was assumed it was virally induced.
  My bitches finally came back into heat and I bred three. One was a young
bitch, the other two were my better producers. The young bitch missed as did
one of the better producers. The third gave birth to 6 puppies. Two were
born without legs, tails, or any sex organs. It was then that I became
suspicious.
  A friend and breeder said out loud to me what I was thinking to myself.
"Ever since you changed foods your dogs have had problems." The problem I was
faced with now - it appeared as if my dogs had been on some chemical substance.
Since they were not into drugs, and as this winter I was not using any insec-
ticides, I checked the ingredients on my bag of food.
  This food was being advertised as being free of preservatives and additives,
however, I noticed an unfamiliar ingredient called 'ethoxyquin'. I immediately
called my friend who believes in cooking for her dog, and asked her what she
knew about the ingredient. She informed me that she had read that a Shepherd
breeder had lost four shepherds over a short period of time to liver cancer
believed to have been induced by ethoxyquin. She promised to check into it
with a chemical friend of hers.
  The results were frightening to say the least. Ethoxyquin was invented by
Monsanto as a rubber stabilizer and is being used as an herbicide, and as an
insecticide, as well as a preservative. It was the chemist's feeling that we
were playing with fire if this ingredient was in the dogfood. She informed
her that this was a toxic, potentially dangerous preservative with only limited
research as to its safety. She felt that additional research was needed at this
time.
  PANIC!! I began checking dog foods and to my horror it was in just about
every dog food sold on the market.
  I called the FDA to inform them of this ingredient and to tell them of my
experience. The way they quickly put someone on the phone that quote "would
want to talk to me about this", I was convinced they have had other complaints.
They were interested and asked for a list of dog foods that conatined
ethoxyquin. I assured them I would see if other breeders had similar problems.
  This brings me to the purpose of this article. If you have had an unusual
amount of bitches missing, or if you are having whelping problems; if you
have noticed any immune deficiency such as skin lesions, runny eyes, 
scabbiness around the nostrils or loss in pigmentation, check the ingredients
on your dog food. If it contains ethoxyquin, please contact me at 96 Prospect
Hill Dr., North Weymouth, MA 02191. I need as much input as I can get in order
to put pressure on the FDA to act.
  Meanwhile, contact your dog food company and tell them that if they do not
remove this ingredient from their dog food that you intend to stop feeding
it, and you will no longer recommend it to puppy buyers. Together we could
put enough pressure on these companies to get them to act on this problem.
The FDA could take years. Meanwhile, our dogs' lives may be at stake.
  I have changed my food to a food preserved with vitamins E and C. My blue
merle has begun to recover. I know it is not entirely because of the food,
but because he has been receiving liquid gold injections, however, until I
changed my food there was no respose to the injections.
  It is still too soon to tell about the other dogs. But rest assured, you
will hear more as I do not intend to rest until something is done.
  I recently checked the ingredient label on my original dog food and noticed
they are now adding ethoxyquin, along with BHA (another preservative) where
before they had just used BHA. When I think back, I do recall them mentioning
that they were changing their formula and it was shortly after that when my
dog's health began to decline. I also recall that a breeder friend of mine
also had similar problems with the same food at about the same time. She
also changed food in September but chose a different product than I. Her
results were immediate. Her dogs began to lose all the coloring in their
noses, and white hairs began to appear on their faces. Needless to say,
she switched her food again and this time with good results.
  With this in mind, I checked the products in question. I discovered the first
product that she had switched to contained ethoxyquin, and the second one
which was successful did not.
  All of the problems I incurred could possible be explained away, but the 
fact still remains that an herbicide/insecticide does NOT belong in our dog
food, at least, I do not want it in mine.

    This is extremely interesting....Is Ethoxy (whatever it is) in the
    IAMS cat as well??
    
    This might explain some problems I had last summer, when I was feeding
    strictly IAMS.
    
    cin
    

    	Yes, it is in IAMS.  Sorry about omitting that.....I had written
    	that note for CANINE and deleted part of it...which is why it
    	was omitted.
    
    	I don't know if it anything to worry about....however I am going
    	check it out before I buy anymore dry products.  Sherry and	
    	I went to the store and all the dry and moist foods and treats
    	have the Ethoxyquin in it.
    
    	m&n
    
    	p.s.  one of Sherry's cats had a problem when fed IAMS too.

    	re .4 - this was my reply in CANINE....

                     -< so, THAT'S why she got sick...!! >

    
    	I find this interesting because I tried to switch my
    	cat to Iams dry about a month ago. She immediately
    	became listless, developed diarrhea, and a high fever.	
    	She also stopped eating. I'm sure this was because of
    	the food - I almost called Eukanuba to b*tch them out
    	about it and make them pay my vet bills. She only weighs
    	five lbs (at three years of age!), so by losing even a 
    	pound or two her health is in great danger! I decided
    	not to call them at the time, but now I'm thinking twice
    	about it....
    
    
    
    	Sherry
    

    What's the 800 number for HIll's?  800 info doesn't have it.
    

    I would like more info!!!  Last summer, I lost two cats, both to
    Liver failure.  In almost 10 years of breeding, I have never lost
    an adult cat.  I have occasionally lost kittens during delivery
    or within the first few days, but NEVER an adult cat.  
    
    In July last year, I lost Tigee, my Exotic Shorthair Male who was
    just over a year.  Tigee had eatten IAMS his entire life.  Tigee
    was diagnosed as having congenital hepititis, a liver disease. 
    Fire developed similar symptoms a couple months later, and died
    of scorosis (sp) of the liver.  Tufts couldn't understand how such
    a young cat (Fire was about 6) could have a liver in such serious
    condition.  I couldn't understand what was going on.  And I must
    say that I've been terrified ever since.  At this point, I had been
    feeding IAMS exclusively for about 2 years.  
    
    During the spring last year, Fire had bred several females who didn't
    get pregnant.  Fire had never missed.  
    
    I wonder if these things are circumstantial, or could be related
    to the diet.  Last November, I started buying Blue Seal Kat Kare,
    and have been very pleased with it.  I mix it with other "gourmet"
    foods, such as IAMS, Science Diet, Biljac, etc.  
    
    E.T. do you know if Kat Kare has this exy(whatever it is) in it???
    
    cin
    

    re: 8
    
    I am talking with Blue Seal on the phone now - they preserve
    their dry food with Butylated Hydroxytoluene and citric acid
    preservative - plus Vitamin E suplement

    Re: .9  
    
    Hmmm, Interesting!!!  I noticed big improvements in my cats when
    I started feeding the Kat Kare.  Nicer coats, and better weight.
    Actually I hadn't expected either, because I was paying alot less
    for the food.  
    
    I think I'll call Fire's Dr. at Tufts an discuss this possibility.
    I'll let you know what I find out.
    
    cin
    

    re: 8
    
    They don't list E... on the bags - am I correct that companies
    don't have to list it?  I am having Blue Seal check with the
    company that makes their dry to see if it is used - it is
    NOT listed as an ingredient on their dry cat food products.

    Boy, you think if you pay more you get a better product.  Guess
    that's not always true.  When are these damn companies going
    to figure out that we want good health and longevity for our 
    animals and have the breeding pairs produce healthy offspring.
    
    $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$  =  garbage   something doesn't seem quite right.
    
    I wonder if IAMS uses that stuff to keep the product with the high fat
    content - keep the fat from going rancid?  Is that a way to preserve
    fat?

    re:  Bue Seal Kat Kare
    
    What's funny is that Agway puts out a dry that suposedly is
    they say is comparible to kat kare - I tried a bag a few
    months ago - I have no fussy eaters - they will eat almost
    anything - I put down a pan of Big Red (I think that's
    the name of it - I ran out of food and couldn't get down
    to Derry) they took one sniff and walked away!  I couldn't
    believe it - I ended up throwing out in the woods for the
    fox and whatever - I think I had to go to the general store
    and pick up a box of Friskies to tide me over until I got down
    to Blue Seal to get them their Kat Kare.  That was the ONLY time
    my crew refused food probably in their lives!!

    Cin,
    
    I know of several young Birman males (2-7 years) that have recently
    died of liver failure.  We in the Birman community have been concerned
    that this might be linked to the type of liver problems that are
    running through a lot of Aby lines, Renal Amylodosis.  The male
    cats involved also did not produce any kittens prior to their deaths.
    Now I am wondering if it might have been diet related too.  I do
    not know what types of cat food these cats were eating, but I will
    try to find out.  It is very disturbing to lose a cat that young
    to liver failure.  
    
    Jo

    Did some checking at the show this weekend...Hills Science Diet
    doesn't contain the ethoxyquin either.  
    
    Before I started feeding IAMS, I was feeding Science Diet, and then
    fed both Science Diet and IAMS for awhile.  Then I switched them
    to just IAMS.  
    
    I'll let you know what I find out from Tufts.
    
    cin
    
    

    Cin-
    
    Hills DOES put Ethoxyquin in their dry only, so the canned is okay.
    
    The IAMS people said they may not have to list it because it is
    in a product which they buy to put in their feed.
    
    m&n 

    
    
    	Well this is just wonderful!! (said with sarcasm)
    
    	I went through all the cat and kitten food I have at home.
    	(I just buy the store bought stuff right now) Friskies and
    	Purina kitten chow both have Ethoxyquin and so does Nine
    	Lives dry....
    
    	I was going to try the better stuff (Science Diet) but now
    	with all this going around.....it seems like everything
    	has this garbage in it.
    
    	Our cats have been eating this food all along and have
    	SEEMED fine.  But who knows...down the road.
    
    	Maybe I'll try the Kat Kare....
    
    	JJ
    

    Well, I am really worried about this. First of all, I had a bag
    of Science Diet Lite and Purina ProPlan. My cats like both but
    LOVE ProPlan. The label on SD Lite says ethoxyquin. I was upset,
    but MORE upset to see that ProPlan listed it twice, to preserve
    beef fat AND to preserve bee suet. So, I threw both bags out,
    and my cats are FURIOUS with me.
    
    I also had a bag of SD Maintenance Dry food, and it did not
    list ethoxyquin on the bag. But that doesn't necessarily mean
    it's not there, right? What's worse is that my cats HATE SD
    Maintenance. A long time ago, I got them two varieties of a
    dry cat food called Big Red. One cat tried to cover it up...
    The other sniffed and actually walked in reverse. I never saw
    two cats react so negatively to food before! I had to throw
    them out. The only cat food my cats will gobble up like starved
    waifs is ProPlan, but I'll be doggone if I'll feed that to them
    again. 
    
    I started thinking....what about PERFORM. They brag on how 'fresh'
    it is so I thought, maybe because of this they don't use a 
    preservative. So I called that 800 number yesterday, and sure
    enough they DO use it as well!
    
    I feel ripped off. I purposefully bought these brands because I
    was led to believe they were better for my cat than Friskies. I
    paid the extra price because my cats are worth it. Now I find out
    that they are no better than the rest. One observation...at the
    grocery store Friskies dry food DID NOT have ethoxyquin listed
    on the box. Would I be safe in buying Friskies dry food? Has anyone
    heard anything BAD about it?
    
    All the other dry foods like Purina Cat Chow, Kit n' Kaboodles,
    and 9-Lives dry, had ethoxyquin in them. Where can I find that
    Blue Seal that everyone is talking about...I live in Boylston, MA.
    Anything near there that sells this? Do they have trial sizes for
    VERY FINICKEY cats?
    
    lp

    re: 18  
    
    
    As far as I know Blue Seal does not use it.
    
    You can buy Kat Kare at feed and grain stores - to find out
    who sells it you can call Blue Seal in Bow, NH (main office)
    and ask which stores in your area carry it.  
    
    RE:  IAMS
    
    At the show this weekend, I asked the IAMS person about it - she
    said that IAMS has only been using it for one year - 1988.  When
    I walked up to her and said that I had a question, after she saw
    me reading the bag, she said if my question was about Ethoxyquin.
    She seemed to KNOW as if she has been getting a lot of negative
    feedback about it - she also asked which article I had read.
    So it must have been written up somewhere, but I don't know
    where.

    I talked to the Hills person at the show this weekend.  She said
    that Hills used BHA as a preservative, not ethoxyquin.  She did
    say, however, that ethoxyquin was used in the lite formula, but
    not the Maintenance or Kitten.  
    
    Ethoxyquin was not included on the label on either of these, and
    she looked up Ethoxyquin on a chart that listed every ingredient
    and it wasn't there.
    
    I'm going to make a call to Hills and find out.
    
    cin
    

    Just got off the phone with Hills....the "dietary specialist" that
    I talked with said that Yes, Ethoxyquin was used in all SD cat foods.
    She is going to send me literature today, which I will post as soon
    as I get.  She didn't know how long SD had been using ethoxyquin,
    but was going to check and include that information in the package
    of literature she was sending me.  
    
    I had to wait quite a while to talk with someone, and she didn't
    seem surprised by my question.  She said that "someone" is starting
    a PANIC....I don't know what to think, I'll wait for the literature
    and talk to Tufts and see what they think.
    
    cin
    

    I just got off the phone with the nutritionist at Blue Seal -
    their 800 phone number is:  800.225.0530 Mr. Marv Colburn.
    
    He has had MANY inquires regarding Ethoxyquin from the article.
    
    Neither Kat Kare nor Kat Krunchies use Ethoxyquin.  Kat Kare is
    the low ash low Mg low fat veggie based - Kat Krunchies is a little
    higher in both, same fat, more CA, Phosp. etc - I don't have a bag
    here with the Krunchies ingredients, but it's more meat based. 
    It could be used as a substitute instead of IAMS OR HILLS.  Actually,
    it has less fat than IAMS and HILLS, but it's just a nutritious.
    I may put Krunchies in the Shower Stall Feeding Station rather than
    Hills or IAMS.  
    
    Mr. Colburn is going to send me a list of stores that carry Blue
    Seal in Mass. - I will post it when it comes.  All I know is that
    I have had a bunch of cats on this product for over 2 years.  Some
    of you have seen my kids - they are ok - good coats, good health,
    good weight (with a very few exceptions, which we won't discuss
    !!)
    I think if anyone had any questions, that Mr. Colburn would be
    happy to answer them.  He did say that Ethoxyquin is put in to
    fat at rendoring plants - Blue Seal gets their fat from Corninco
    and corninco will put in any preservative that a company wants.
    Blue Seal doesn't use Ethoxyquin because of cost.  They use citric
    acid and BTA.  Ethoxyquin has been used for years in poultry and
    cattle feed (apparently it is not retained - in other words, I
    said, "Oh, we have been eating it too??"  He said no, it doesn't
    affect or we don't absorb it.  
    
    Hope this helps - 
    
    E.T. 

    I talked to hills and this is what they said:
    
    the current concern stems from the report of one woman (not a vet)
    who thinks the ingredient was responsible for her dogs deaths.
    
    ethwhatsis has been used in pet foods for thirty years with no evidence that
    it causes any problems.
    
    it is used only in dry cat foods, because "it doesn't make sense to
    put an anti-oxident in canned food".
    
    {me again} Considering how quickly hills responded to the taurine
    information, and changed their product formulation, I am inclined to
    think this ingredient is not a problem.
    

    Gee, I wonder if Old Mother Hubbard uses the damn stuff.  Here goes
    another phone call.  
    
    I just called - it's not listed on the can - 
    
    I am on the phone with Old Mother Hubbard - they use only all natural
    ingredients - it's stated on their label.  They use the same preserva
    tives that Blue Seal uses - vitamins.  To be sure I will read a
    can tonight.
    
    I wonder if I can return the IAMS I just bought......

    
    Well, I checked all the dry stuff at home, and all the Purina chows
    have it listed in their ingredients as a preservative.  This includes
    the dairy formula kitten chow, which our kids are wild about :^(
    
    

    
    
        Well I really can't say as if it does or doesn't harm my cats,
    sounds like even if this is going into panic mode there still could
    be a 1% chance that my cats could be the ones bothered by it so.....
    Ok I'm considering getting them off Iams and switching to Blue Seal.
    One question first and I direct this to E.T. as you seem to use
    it alot with so many.....  I know with Iams there poops are nice
    (well as nice as poops can be) very little smell and solid.  How
    does the Blue Seal rate as far as that aspect?  I know I started
    out with Science Diet and they stunk to high heaven, the Iams is
    what corrected that.  Thanks.
    
                                                       kim

    Well, I changed mine from IAMS to Blue Seal Kat Kare, and noticed
    a few "extra" poops the first day or two, and then it was back to
    normal.  My hubby laughs at my kitty boxes, he says it looks like
    I have rabbits instead of cats!!!  Poops are very hard, and no more
    smell than with IAMS.  
    
    I'm feeding Kat Kare to 10 persians and exotic shorthairs, they
    have been on this food since around November and their coats are
    beautiful, and shiney.  I haven't had any health problems with anybody
    since they've been on Kat Kare.  
    
    I personally don't think Kat Kare is nutritionally balanced for
    growing kittens, or pregnant or nursing mothers, so I would supplement
    those "kids" in those conditions with extra canned or growth formula
    food.  
    
    And you can't beat the price!!!
    
    
    cin
    
    p.s.  I think the reason for the extra poops the first day or so
    was because they "inhaled" the Kat Kare, and probably ate much more
    than their normal fill.
    
    

    All I know is that I have compared Blue Seal Kat Kare to a variety
    of foods over the past year including: C/D from the vets, etc.
    
    Each and every time I stayed with the Kat Kare - I am now going
    to start getting the Kat Crunchies instead of the IAMS for Lil.
    I'm not sure I will even use that new 8 lb bag I just bought
    Saturday - I just haven't decided yet.
    
    Cat Sheeeet is cat sheeeeet now matter what.  Delumping every
    time you are near the box helps a bunch - keeping the litter deep
    helps - what I don't like about dry foods that claim that they
    increase water consumption is that they have increased the sodium
    to get the animal to drink more.
    
    Regarding the odor - yes, with cat sheeeet there is odor - when
    I brought Charlie home after he was neutered, boy, was there some
    odor - with an older cat it takes about 2 weeks  or so for the
    odor to disappear - during that time, I had a small bottle of
    Outright in a pump dispenser, which I sprayed lightly over the
    pool - the odor immediately disappeared!  The stuff worked like
    magic!    Cat sheeeeet for 18 is 2 full lunch bags a day - 
    one in the morning and one in the evening!  
    
    I, too, wonder if we are all getting a little too excited, myself
    included.  It really galls me that these companies pull this kind
    of junk - I do know that BOTH Blue Seal products and Old Mother
    Hubbard products are advertised as ALL NATURAL.  I have had very
    good luck with them and think I will stay with them until I feel
    that something better has come along worthy of trying.
    I worry about the baby (Lil) getting enough calories - she is
    a very busy young lady - I want more than anything for her to
    be healthy and produce VERY HEALTHY offspring - this is a new
    thing for me - feeding alters is a little different.  I need
    to think about this some more, but I do think I will at least
    be safe trying the Blue Seal Kat Crunchies.  If that isn't enough,
    it's back to the drawing board and more homework on cat foods!
    
    E.T.

    Fromm also makes an all natural cat food.  My cats love it though
    it is high in protien and I have to limit their intake.  I spoke
    to the distributor this morning and was assured that Fromm does
    not contain this chemical.  Shelf life is shorter that most foods-
    only about 5-6 months.  Fromm is readily available in many areas
    and is reasonably priced.  They also make a canned food.  
    
    MaryAnne
    
    This note is more elaborate in the canine file

    I think that I am going to stick with the Iams until more information
    is available about this chemical.  I have never had any problems
    with the Iams, my guys have been eating it for years, and they are
    healthy, happy, and have gorgeous coats.  I also feed Wysong's
    sometimes, but as far as I know, Blue Seal Cat Care is not available
    out here in California, and the Wysongs is hard to find.  I would
    like to see some published results of test feedings of the exy-stuff.
    Then, once armed with that information, I could make a decision.
    
    But, I had to comment on the two lunch bags full of lumps.  We used
    to flush the lumps, but then one day I thought it might be interesting
    to see just how many pounds of lumps we were flushing.  This was
    when we had 18 cats, we had about 7 pounds of lumps!  That is alot
    of lumps to be flushing down the toilet, so now ours go into paper
    lunch bags too.  Gives new meaning to the phrase "don't forget your
    lunch".
    
    Jo 

    Really - in my house it's really difficult to 'forget my lunch'.
    
    let's wait and see....

    Jo,
    
    Remember that they have only been including this stuff in IAMS since
    1988.  
    
    I'm a little afraid to wait and see....what do we wait to see, if
    our cats die???  I had too much bad luck in 1988, starting with
    breedings that didn't take, and ending in the loss of my two stud
    males.  I also lost an entire litter, which is still unexplained
    by Tufts.  
    
    I spoke to Dr. LaRue at Tufts last evening.  She didn't know anything
    about ethoxyquin or it's effects.  She was going to research it
    and get back to me.  
    
    All I know is that it appeared that my bad luck stopped when I switched
    to Kat Kare.....I still fed some IAMS and other "gourmet" foods,
    but only as a mix-in, rather than a steady diet.  During 1988, I
    was feeding exclusively IAMS dry, no canned, or no different brands.
    I've got great weight and feel on my cats now, so I think I'll stick
    with Kat Kare.  
    
    E.T.  I fed Kat Krunchies long ago before all this "gourmet" food
    came out, and had good luck.  I just figured if I was paying more
    for the IAMS that it must be better.  Now I'm not so sure.  I think
    I also will begin buying Krunchies for the girls, but will keep
    the boys on Kat Kare since it's low in ash and magnesium.  
    
    cin
    

    You bring up some interesting points Cin.  I don't know what to
    do.  I guess I will have to start checking out the cat food in the
    health food stores and see what happens.
    
    I haven't noticed any differences in my cats since 1988.  They were
    eating Iams before '88 too.  I really wish there were some cut and
    dry answers.  Maybe I will write to my Iams rep and see what response
    I get.  I hate to switch since I love how my cats look right now.
    I also feed them large quantities of Science Diet Feline Growth,
    but I use the canned not the dry, so at least I am not doubling
    up on the exy-stuff.  (wish I could spell it, or at least pronounce
    it!).
    
    Can Blue Seal be shipped cross country?  How much is it?
    
    Jo

    After talking with the 'dietary specilicists' at IAMS and Hill's,
    I decided to wait and get the info from them before stopping the
    use of their product.  My feeling is that some cats or dogs might
    be sensitive to Ethoxyquin as some of us are to MSG (or other food
    allergies).  I DO believe there is reason to be concerned, but I
    don't think these companies would make a product detremental to
    their clients health.  They would lose a lot of buisness to the
    'health food - no preservitives' type manufacturers - where is the
    incentive????          
    
    Nippa has improved since on IAMS, and she eats SD canned almost
    exclusively.....so I am going to wait.  I will be happy to forward
    the information I recieve on Ethoxyquin as I get it, but you too
    can order your own and get alot of questions answered (for only
    9.95 and 3 proofs of purchase.... ;^)  ).
    
    What is strange is the original letter (see reply .2) is New England
    based, and these companies are recieving calls primarly from the
    NE area.  Is someone looking for a scape goat (I'm beginning to
    think so...)?
    
    Lets keep our minds open and the info flowing as we get it, and
    hopefully soon we'll be able to figure out what is going on.
    
                 
    m&n

    
    
        A recent note in the canine file was put in by someone who called
    the Iams company to ask if they could get some pamphlets or brochures
    etc.....  I guess when they got on the phone the person over at
    Iam's was very rude and started in on how this had to do with a
    breeder from Braintree causing a panic and all the phone calls they've
    been getting are from the Boston area (I guess he meant it was just
    a localized problem??) etc......  this person interuppted and asked
    for the info and when they got it they would make up their own mind
    about it thank-you.....
    
          Not very good public relations on Iam's part.  We're switching
    I just don't like anything about any of this.  Bad vibes I guess
    you could call it. Heaven help me if one of my cats would be the
    ones that for some reason it would affect.  Rather be safe then
    sorry and it sounds like it'll save me some money in the long run.
    Now I just hope the cats will like the new stuff.........
    
                                                              kim
    
                                   

    Lordy, Lordy, - this whole thing is a serious irritation.  I think
    the cat food companies are pissed because the public is much more
    educated and asks many more questions and DEMANDS answers.  They
    can't just slip junk into cat food and get away with it for too
    long.
    
    I'm not saying that that is what is happening in this case, but
    I, too, don't quite know.  
    
    Blue Seal is quite inexpensive - I think about $10 or $11 for a
    25 lb. bag - can it be shipped - sure it can - I would also 
    recommend your calling the 800 Blue Seal phone number (prev. note)
    and talking to them (Marvin Colburn - wait...
    
    I just looked in my mail mail - he DID send the list of Blue Seal
    Dealers in Mass only.
    
    Erikson's - Acton
    Country Hardware - Acushnet
    Hoosac Valley - Adams
    Malones Farm - Agawam
    Amesbury Garden - Amesbury
    Amherst Farmers - Amherst
    Taylor Hardware - Ashfield
    Boynton Grain - Assonet
    Bartiett American Station - Athol
    Conlon & Donnelly - Attleboro
    H.E.Smith Grain - Avon
    The Pet Shed  - Belchertown
    LUcky Pey Center - Bellingham
    The Belmont Pet Show - Belmont
    Bernardston Grain - Bernardston
    J.P. O'Connor - Billerica
    Bedford St. Feed & Supply - Bridgewater
    Sarget Supply Co - Brockton
    Hughes Horse & Rider - Canton 
    Carvaer Supply Co - Carver
    Cataumet Gardaen Center - Cataumet
    Village Grain - Chicopee
    Bernardston Grain Mill - Colrain
    Wilson Lumber - Concord
    Dalton General Store - Dalton
    Pete's Grain- Dracut 
    B. F. Goodrich - Duxbury
    Community Feed - East Longmeadow
    East Taunton Kennel Supply - E.Taunton
    *
    * Easthampton,Easton,Edartown
    Essex Bird Shop - Essex
    The Grain Mill - Falmouth
    Realwood Inc. - Framingham
    Vet-Med - Franklin
    Duguay's Fried Chicken - Gardner (this is for real)
    Fitts Mill - Hanson   
    Arathur Sharp FArm Supply - Haverhill
    Hyannis, Ipswich, Jefferson, Lakevill, Lanesboro
    Cape Side Grain - Hyannis
    Blue Seal Feeds & Needs - Lawrence
    Farmers Exchange of Leominster - Leominster
    Ludlow, Mansfield, Marstons Mills, Marion
    Hoyt Decorating - Merrimack
    Middleboro Home Center - Middleboro
    Top Dog Pet - Milford
    Nantucket - Marine Home Center
    High Tail Acrew - Newbury
    Village Pet - Newburyport
    Westminster Farms - North Billerica
    Peter's Store - North Heath
    LaPorte Feed & Tack - North Reading  
    Northfield Country Store - Northfield
    Orange Cash & Carry - Orange
    Orleans, Otis, Oxford, 
    A.P. Ames - Peabody
    Petersham
    Pittsfield , Plainville
    Arthur Sirrico - Plymouth
    Rehoboth, Rockport, Rutland, Sandwich,
    Pet Provisions - Salem
    Pedigree Pet - Saugus
    Scituate, Sherborn, South Dartmouth, South Carver
    South Dennis, Southbridge, Southwick, Spencer, 
    Spartan Hardware - Stoneham
    Briarwood Grain - Templeton
    Essex County - Topsfield
    Townsend Farmers Ex. - Townsend
    Countrysdie Farm & Garden - Uxbridge
    SBS - Vineyard Haven   
    Ox Bow Pet Shop - Wakefield
    Rocky Hill Farm - Wales
    Gilmore's - Walpole
    Town & Country Gardens - Ware
    Wel-Fleet Garden Center - Wellfleet
    A.W. Baldwin & Co - WEst Stockbridge
    Westfield Feed & Supply - Westfield
    Westminster Country - Westminster
    City View Feed & Tack - Westport
    Tannery Saddle Shop - Whately
    Wilmington Grain - Wilmington
    Horse & Buggy Feeds - Winchendon
    Pampered Pet - Winchester
    J.P. Brown of Worcester - Worcester
    Harding Feed                  "
    Worthington Farm & Garden - Worthington
    
    If you don't see your town on this list, send me mail  
    and I will recheck the list.
    
    E.T.          
    
    
    
    

         We get our Blue Seal Turkey and Wild Bird feed from Thibault's
    Country Store, Rt. 31, North Spencer, Tel # (508) 885-3959.  He's been
    very good about ordering our Blue Seal Turkey/Game Bird Medicated 
    Crumbles, so I'd bet he'd order Blue Seal Kat Kare/Crumbles too.
    
         Haven't decided whether to switch yet, am watching this note
    carefully, though ...
    
                                        - Andrea
    

    I called my vet yesterday and talked to his technician, who is very
    good and up on the research.  She has not heard anything about this
    and suggested that I give the Cornell School of Vet. Medicine's
    feline hotline a call.  She didn't have the number but said that
    it was in the April issue of CATS magazine.  I haven't had a chance
    to call yet.  If anyone else does before I get to it, please let
    us know what they say.
      Nancy DC
    

    
    
    At this point, I, too am going to monitor this note and then decide.
    I presently use IAMS, Science Diet Maintenance, ProPlan and Acclaim
    dry foods.  BTW, I looked on the Acclaim bag and BTA was the listed
    preservative in the fat.  My kids seem to like all these brands.
    I will probably try the Blue Seal considering that's what I give
    my horse and he looks great (good coat, healthy hooves, etc.)  I
    also give the cats canned food (usually 9-Lives, Feline Maintenance,
    Whiskas).
    
    This is so aggravating!  Spending good money on foods supposedly
    with no additives, preservatives, etc.  I can understand putting
    something into the fat so it won't go rancid quickly but....there's
    a limit!
    
    HEAVY SIGH   8^{
    
    Roslyn and the troops

    
    
    Ooops! I forgot to add that I get Acclaim at Erikson's in Acton
    for $1.69 for an 8lb bag.  And in the last bag I got to coupons
    one for $1 off and the other for 50 cents off.  I think they also
    carry Acclaim for dogs.  My mind is rather foggy today.
    
    Roslyn

    Question about Acclaim. I have heard of this some where
    but can't think. Who makes Acclaim and is it easy to
    find? I live in Boylston/Nortboro area.
    
    You're right -- this is annoying!
    
    lp
    
    

    
    
    	This is out in the middle of nowhere but...
    
    	There is a flower/plant shop in Winchester NH on Rte 119
    	that sells Blue Seal.  My folks have a camp up there and
    	I stop in off and on....  But for the life of me I can't
    	remember the name of it....it's just about in the center
    	of town (don't blink, you'll miss it!! :)  )
    

    Well, I've been searching for foods that don't have ethoxyquin.
    I feed my cats mostly dry, and I like to feed them variety.  I have
    found at least one more, possibly 2 more foods that don't have
    ethoxyquin.
    
    Lick Your Chops - a new dry food that uses no animal fat, so they
    don't need the preservative.  I had a sample from a cat show, my
    cats really loved it, and it is all natural.  To find a distributor
    near you call Lick Your Chops at 203-854-5001.
    
    Perform - another dry food that I got a sample of at a cat show.
    Perform is ordered and delivered by mail only.  I just a 20 lb bag
    is 21.80, and delivered in 5 to 7 days.  I just got off the phone
    ordering some.  My cats loved the sample.  I think I'll love the
    convenience of having it delivered.  It does not contain Ethoxyquin.
    They removed Ethoxyquin in January of 1989, and now use BHA as a
    preservative.  
    
    Both Lick Your Chops and Perform (made by carnation) have crude
    protein 31%, Crude Fat 15%.
    Lick Your Chops:
    
    Ash 4.5% Max
    Phosphorus 1.0% min
    Magnexium .10% max
    
    Perform:
    Ash 6% max
    magnesium .1% max
    doesn't list phosphorus.
    
    
    Anyone want to buy 20 lbs of Iams in 4 lb bags???
    
    cin
    

    oops, forgot to include the 800 # for perform
    
    800-448-2111
    
    cin
    

    
    
    I too, am now checking the labels.  If you're like me and buy
    the grocery store cat food try "Whiskas" made by Kal Kan.  I
    checked all the dry food labels - Purina, Friskies, etc. very
    carefully and "Whiskas" seems to be the only one on the shelf
    that doesn't have that "ethox" stuff in it.
    
    Joanne, Puffin & Buttons
    
    P.S.  The girls gobbled it right up! :-)
    

    
    	I found the Wiskas treats in CVS, and the label did
    	say it had ethoxyquin...
    
    	Sherry
    
    

	Okay, folks, I've got a question this nonsense brings up:

	All the kitten foods have long explanations about how important 
	their extra nutrition is in the cat's first year.  I have no
	trouble believing this.  But all the kitty foods seem to have
	Ethoxyquin.  So what should I feed Chrysalis?  She's been on 
	Purina Kitten Chow for 10 days with no apparent ill effects, 
	but that doesn't prove much.  Can a kitten get enough nutrition
	from something like the Blue Seal food?

	Thanks,
	Beverly

    I have several milk cartons of the Friskies Kitten Formula and all
    of them say the preservative used is BHA.  There is no mention of
    Ethoxyquin in the list of ingredients.  My kittens love this stuff
    and so do the cats.  I still have a 20 lb. bag of Iams which I plan
    to mix in with the Blue Seal Kat Krunchies recently purchased. 
    The Kat Krunchies went over real big with all my guys so I plan
    on switching to it until Iams does soemthing about the Ethoxyquin.
    
    As mentioned several times in this note, the Blue Seal feed is *a
    lot* cheaper than Iams.  A 10 lb. bag cost $4.95 at Farmers Exchange
    in Framingham.
    
    
    /Roberta
    

    
    RE: .46
    
    	Sherry,
    
    	Do you mean "Whiska Likins" treats?  I've seen those too (and
    in fact bought them for the girls) and I know the name is similar
    to "Whiskas" which was originally "Crave" (and it says that on the
    bag/box of dry food).  Just want to clear up any confusion.
    
    Joanne (and of course, Puffin & Buttons)
    

    re: 48
    
    Perform has a kitten formula.  Perform used Ethoxyquin when they
    first introduced their food, but removed it in January 1989.  
    
    Perform is made by carnation, I think the same company that does
    "Friskies".  I wouldn't surprise me to see Friskies removing this
    ingredient if Perform did.  
    
    I bought the Friskies Kitten too Roberta....I LOVED the
    commercial...so, what can I say, I'm a sucker for advertising! ;-)
    
    One thing I noticed about the Friskies is the size of the crunchies
    was much smaller than other kitten foods.  I thought that this was
    GREAT!!!  The size of the crunchies to me are small enough for a
    kitten to swallow them whole if they can't chew them!!!
    
    Roberta, I'm glad your kids liked the Blue Seal.  Mine really are
    doing good on it.  And you can't beat the price!
    
    cin
    
    
    

    ]
    
    	Roberta, are you sure?  I thought I had seen it when we
    	checked ours...I could be wrong though...If you're right
    	then wonderful!!  Duke loves the stuff....
    

    
    	I checked Friskies kitten at Spag's the other night and it 
    	had it...I hadn't seen it in the box of Friskies adult food
    	that I had at home, but the same box at Spag's listed it, too.
    
    	The treats were in a `lunchbag' shaped box, they were purple,
    	gold, and green, if I remember...It could have been Wiska
    	Lickins...now that you mention it, I think it was...
    
    	Michele got the info from Iams on ethoxyquin in the mail
    	today, I will be taking a look at it myself over the weekend.
    	
    	Sherry
    

    I checked my Friskies kitten food at lunch and it didn't list it. 
    Julie loves it and screams for it when her dish is empty.  And,
    besides, she looks JUST like the kitten in the commercial!!!  I guess
    I'll try some Kat Kare or Krunchies this weekend and see how the boys
    react.  Chauncey is a ProPlan kitty....Honey likes Julie's kitten food!
    
    Sigh...it's always something, huh??
    
    Mar
    

    re previous replies....
    
    Don't think that because the bag doesn't list it as an ingredient
    that it isn't there..........   
    
    The pet food companies are not required to print new bags when they
    change ingredients.  They are allowed to use up all the previously
    printed bags first.  In the case of Hills, it apparently took close
    to a year before it started showing up on the list.  The only way
    you know for sure is to call the manufacturer!

    The Friskies Kitten food I am talking about Sherry is in the milk
    carton, not the box.  None of my milk cartons list Ethoxyquin, just
    BHA.
    
    Cin - I like the size of the crunchies too!!  All of my cats go
    right for the kitten food before anything else.  Nikki has gained
    a pound since January so I have to limit the quantities.  It's hard
    to feed both kittens and full grown cats unless it's done in separate
    parts of the house.
    

    Well, I looked at my 'milk carton' of Friskies baby and sure enough,
    there was the e-word!  I went down to Food For Pets and they showed me
    letters from the maker of ethoxyquin (Monsanto) disputing the claims
    that it caused cancer.  They've been making and selling it for over 30
    years and this is the first report they've heard.
    
    In spite of that, I picked up a sample of Fromm Formula Feline and the
    boys loved it.  It's hard to tell with Julie, cause she'll eat
    anything.  So, the switch is on....
    
    Mary

    
	This is what I've received from IAMS regarding Ethoxyquin:


	A Personal letter......

	The mission of the IAMS Co. clearly states that we will manufacture
	products which enhanced the well-being of dogs and cats.  We would
	not use ingredients which would cause harm.

	Ethoxyquin is the most widely used antioxidant in our world for animal
	feeds.  The purpose of antioxidants is to protect our high quality fat
	from the degradation of oxidation which gives off odors and destroys
	fat and fat-soluble vitamins.  The manufacturer, Monsanto, provided
	sufficient research to obtain approval for animal use and did not
	pursue further research for human consumption.  With the present cost
	of research being over $25,000,000 to obtain FDA approval, it is not
	likely that this will be submitted for human consumption.  It has been
	used in the feed industry for 25 years.  Please refer to the
	Protecting Feeds and Feed ingredients with Ethoxyquin, copyright 1985
	by Monsanto CO and Tenox Food Grade Antioxidants, Copyright 1986
	by Eastman kodak Co.

	Any preservative in IAMS products is at a level recommended as safe by
	the FDA.

	the IAMS Co. has been in Business for over 40 years.  Our products
	would not be on the market today with out the dedication of Mr. Paul
	IAMS to the nutritional well-being of animals.  That dedication is
	continued today in the integrity of the IAMS employees.

	We value your comments and thank you for taking the time to call us.
	We hope the referenced material will be helpful to you.

	Sincerely,

	Paulette E. Back
	Customer Service Representative.




	This is an excerpt from the report they sent, I don't have the time to
	type it in, however if someone wants a copy or wants to key it in I'll
	send out a copy.


	...The majority of questions and concerns are reportedly
	traceable to a private campaign of one owner who recently 
	lost three 10-year-old dogs to death...please don't hesitate
	to contact Pet Food Institute (1101 Connecticut Ave., N.W., 
	Washington,D.C. 20036  (202)857-1120)

	...bottom line, there is no scientific evidence to suggest that
	Ethoxyquin is in anyway unsafe for use as directed.  Pet foods, 
	because of their inherent high levels of fat, require an
	antioxidant to protect them from rancity.  of all the antioxidants
	available, Ethoxyquin is the most effective - meaning lower levels 
	can be used to achieve the desired protection......




	My feeling is that I will watch for further developments, but will 
	continue to feed IAMS.  I might write to PFI and ask if any 
	current research is being done regarding this issue, since the stuff
	I received is okay, but no hard evidence or data was enclosed.

	Maybe if we can all write to PFI, we can get some action or
	a better explanation.  


	I don't remember who wrote in saying they experienced some problems
	with their cats and food, but IAMS was very interested in talking with
	Sherry, as her cat got sick from eating IAMS.  They might be
	interested in talking with you too!

	m&n

    I received similar information from Hills.  
    
    Hills also included the summary of studies done on animals and
    ethoxyquin.  I found it very interesting that the tests had been
    done on rats and dogs, but no studies have been done on cats.
    
    I know that cats and dogs do not react the same way to different
    substances.  Because of the larger amounts of protein that cats
    need to consume in comparison to dogs, I wonder how this difference
    would affect the outcome from ethoxyquin.
    
    I received my info packet on Friday, and haven't had time to read
    through and analyize the case studies.  I plan on trying to digest
    this info tonight.  
    
    Until I know for sure, I prefer to be cautious.  If this ingredient
    is suppose to be so safe, and it's such an inexpensive preservative,
    why aren't they going to try for FDA approval for human consumption??
    
    Of course, it's just too expensive for them, right???   I'm skeptical.
    
    cin...who's still got 20 lbs of IAMS CAT for sale!
    

    This weekend at the show, a bunch of us talked to the rep from Perform
    about the ethoxyquin.  This was the first time he had heard anything
    about it.  The Perform products did not contain ethoxyquin.  The
    guy was very nice and gave me enough samples to feed all 16 cats
    two times, so that I could check it out.  
    
    The cats loved the Perform. I put it down next to their regular
    food, Iams and Science Diet canned.  They all went for the Perform.
    
    I thought, Okay great, it is a bit cheaper, and doesn't have
    ethoxyquin.  Then, the next day at the show, another problem showed
    up.  Limoges had FOUR bowel movements during the day at the show!!!
    And boy, everybody in the show hall knew what she was doing, it
    was the worst! :^(  To me, this is an unusually high number of bowel
    movements for a 5 pound cat to have in a an eight hour time period
    (maybe it is just me, though :^D).
    
    Don't know if it was the food, or if she was just trying to embarrass
    me in front of all the other exhibitors....anyone else have a similar
    experience?  Ken reports that when he cleaned the litterboxes at
    home that night, they were chock full too!
    
    Jo
    

    I spoke with a research vet at the Animal Poison Control center
    at the University of Illinois last week.
    
    He did a quick computer search using the keywords "ethoxyquin"
    and "cat" (or was it "feline"???).  There was only one prior
    entry, in 1988 (prior to MY call, that is).  He could not determine if
    it was a problem report or an inquiry like my own.
    
    He suggested that I send in a written request for a full search
    (no charge...they do require that the request be in writing,
    however).  I will post the response if and when I receive one.
    
    	Pennie

    This letter is from Pet Food Institute
                        1101 Connecticut Avenue  N.W.
                        Washington, DC 20036   202-857-1120
    
    Memo To:  Regulatory Affairs Committee
              Public Relations Committee
    
    From:  Tim Rugh
    
    Subject:  Ethoxyquin in Pet Food Diets
    
    Many manufacturers have been receiving inquires from consumers recently
    regarding the sue and safety of ethoxyquin in pet food diets.
    Ethoxyquin is widely used in pet foods to prevent spoilage and to
    maintain nutritional quality.
    
    The majority ofo questions and conerns are reportedly traceable
    to the private compaign of one owner who recently lost three (3)
    10-year-old dogs to death.
    
    In response to this issue, the Monsanto Corporation, a principal
    supplier of thehoxyquin, has prepared background information for
    pet food manufacturers, suppliers, and end users.
    
    We have attached a summary of points from the Monsanto statement
    to assist you with any questions that may arise.
    
    Please don't hesitate to contact PFI if you have any questions or
    comments.   
    
     Excepts from the Monsanto Statement - reprinted without permission
    
    "Ethoxyquin is an extremely safe and effective antioxidant which
    has been used for decades to protect fats, vitamins, and other
    nutrientsin animal feeds.  In spite of its widespread use, concerns
    occasionally surface relating to the safety of antioxidants in pet
    foods.
    
    Ethoxyquin has been carefully scrutinized and approved by the US
    Food and Drug Administration for use in all animal feeds.  It is
    the most widely used antioxidant in the world for animal feeds.
     In fact, ethoxyquin's best testimony is the fact that is has enjoyed
    almost 30 years of successful use in feeds. While other antioxidants
    such as BHT, BHA, etc., are approved for use, higher quantities
    are required to achieve the same anti-oxidative effect as ethoxyquin.
    
    Since most pet diet contain high percentages of added fat,
    stabilization with an antioxidant is paramount to maintaining
    wholesomeness and quality of the pet food.  Left unprotected, the
    fat in the pet food may oxidize and become rancid.  Studies have
    demonstrated that ethoxyquin scavenges the harmful products of
    oxidation, significantly reducing the rate and extent of oxidation
    and, in so doing maintains cellular integrity.  No other antioxidant
    available can protect feeds as effectively and safely as ethoxyquin.
    
    Numerous sceintifically controlled experiments have been conducted
    with ethoxyquin in poultry, rats, rabbits, and dogs to confirm the
    safety of the product when used as directed by the manufacturer.
     Some of the experiemnts with dogs have lasted for up to five years
    to monitor long term effects.  Even levels of 5-10 times the
    recommended useage rate caused only minor irritations that disappeared
    after the animals were returned to the recommended use levels.
    
    Bottom line, there is no scientific evidence to suggest that ethoxyquin
    is in any way unsafe for use as directed.  Pet foods, because of
    their inherent high levels of fat, require an antioxidant to protectd
    them from rancidity.  Of all the antioxidants available, ethoxyquin
    is the most effective- meaning lower levels can be used to achieve
    the desired protection.  Almost thirty years of safe and successful
    experience with ethoxyquin has made it the antioxidant of choice
    in the animal feed industry.
    
    (excerpted from Monsanto Agricultural Company statement)

    Elaine,
    
    That reads almost word for word like the cover letter I got from
    Hills.
    
    It's alright for a company to say something is safe, and as they
    have stated this isn't the first time that questions of its safety
    have arisen.  I wonder, if it's been questioned before, how come
    they haven't conducted any studies on cats???  
    
    And why can these companies add something to cat food that hasn't
    been tested on cats....they can't put it in people food until it's
    affects on people have been tested.
    
    I still don't know what to think.
    
    cin
    

    ET-
    
    That is exactly what mine said, thanks for posting the rest, I didn't
    have time.
    
    m&n
    

    I thought, in order for a study to be a "real" study, it had to
    last 10 years minimum.  Since dogs n cats live over 5 years in general,
    "up to 5 years" doesn't seem to suggest much except that it won't
    do anything bad right away.....
    
    Also, wasn't the problem MOST with breeding animals, suggesting
    that if your animals were neutered, they would be okay for the most
    part?  
    
    kim
    
    (also, why is it that animals foods have a lot of fat?  Cheap taste?)
    
    

    Well, I thought that Monsanto would have to say nice things.  sigh
    
    I didn't like the part about the person that lost the 3 10-year
    old dogs being the cause of this.  Is this really true or what
    should we believe?  
    
    E.T._still_confused

    RE: 67
    
    I am also curious.  Why all the fat in animal foods?  Do cats/animals
    suffer from cholesterol the way their owners do?
    
    Oh lord, another worry! :-(
    
    Anne

    Cats and dogs have higher caloric needs due to higher metabolism,
    that is the reason for the high fat content.
    
    E.T. check into the ethoxyquin discussion in Canine, it has the
    original letter from the lady with three 10 year old dogs that died
    in it.
    
    Jo

    Jo, I did see that - but, she wasn't the "ONLY" one having problems
    was she?????  
    
    E.T.

    E.T....
    
    That's the whole problem!  ARE others having a problem?  In fact,
    did the 3 dogs have trouble from ethox. or from something else?
    [can someone give me a pointer to the note(s) in CANINE?]
    
    It is VERY difficult to "prove" a causal relationship between
    xxx and a disease/death.  Just because the animal ate food with
    ethox. in it and got sick and died doesn't mean that it died
    *because* of the ethox.  For all we know, the animal might have
    died sooner *without* the ethox.!
    
    That is why a *longterm* PROspective study is essential.  In CATS.
    
    The person I spoke with at Hill's is getting me the results of
    a Monsanto study of cats and ethox. that has not yet been 
    published.  I'll nag them to death [no causal link, heh heh ;-)]
    'til they send it!
    
    Anecdotal evidence is SO tricky to interpret.  And so often the
    real story changes each time it is told.  (remember the "rumor
    game" played by kids?  The "story" could change to "Did you hear
    about the town where 30 dogs died after their first meal with
    ethox.")  So far, I haven't yet seen the "real" story, and it
    seems that everyone is running around in a panic after hearing
    about the same woman's dogs from several different sources.
    
    I'm as concerned as anyone about the possibility that there is
    a problem with the pet foods, but I haven't seen/heard yet
    evidence that it has been tested adequately or even that there
    really is a problem!
    
    	Pennie
    	Pennie

    
    
    I was at Erikson's grain mill today and picked up a sample of Bil-Jac.
    It comes in dog and cat.  The carton says _Developed by the makers
    of Bil-Jac fresh frozen cat food.  The sample is non-frozen cat
    food, dry.  The food is manufactured by Kelly Foods Corp., Berlin,
    MD 21811.  Under license from Bil-Jac Foods, Inc., Medina, OH 44256.
    
    The ingredients are mainly chicken by-products, corn, beet pulp,
    brewers yeast, molasses, eggs, etc.  The two preservatives listed
    are: Sodium Propionate, and BHA.
    
    Guaranteed Analysis:
    
    Crude Protein, not less than	31%
    Crude Fat, not less than		18%
    Crude Fiber, not more than		 3.5%
    Moisture, not more than		10%
    Ash, not more than			 6.5% (Isn't this rather high?
    						or is dry ok to be this
    						high?)
    
    _If you have any questions concerning our pet food products, call
    us toll free at: 800-321-1002_
    
    I forgot to check the prices, though.
    
    I had also thrown out the bag of Acclaim ('twas empty) so I didn't
    find out who the manufacturer of it is.  Erikson's was out.
    
    Roslyn (who purchased Kat Krunchies, Old Mother Hubbard canned for
    cats and dogs AND hopes the kids will wolf it down) 8^}
    

    So, Medina Ohio is famous for something other than the annual Sacred
    Cat of Burma show?!
    
    "Just as the swallows will come to San Juan Capistrano, the Birmans
    will flock to Medina every August" quoted from Becky Jones, CFA
    Judge, Medina '88.
    
    I will get into Cannine and find out what note you all can look
    for to read the discussion on Ethoxyquin.
    
    Jo

    The ethoxyquin note in Canine is #2200.  
    
    Jo

    re: ash content -  Hills CD is only 5% in the dry, 1.5% in canned.
    

    When you get a prescription there is a diagram of
    the molecular structure of the active ingredients
    that make the prescription work. I was hoping that
    Monsanto would tell us HOW ethoxyquin is made, what
    is has in it, where it comes from, etc. All they did
    was bs about what a wonderful preservative it is.
    
    It's like nutri-sweet. There's a controversy there,
    but no detailed info is available unless you read
    about it in vitamin books. If I could get a hold
    of the info on the chemical compounds of ethoxyquin,
    I could get my husband to read it for me and tell me
    if he thinks it's safe. He does that with all the
    allergy medicine I use. Would the library have
    information like this?
    
    lp
    
    

    I just talked with my husband who has had several chemistry and
    biochemistry classes.  He says that it sounds like it would have
    and ethyl group hanging off it (ETH) and oxygen group (OXY) and
    the QUIN would be the root molecule.  I don't know what all this
    means, but maybe it will help someone else.  
    
    Bernice
    Mother_of_Trouble & Becky & Velcro

    re: .61 -- "perform"ing cats...
    
    It's very common for extra stool volume when switching foods,
    particularly if they ate a lot of the new food.  When my two dogs
    switched recently (to foods without ethoxyquin) they had higher
    than average stool volume, as well as going more frequently for
    at least a couple of days.  They usually go once or twice a day,
    and that weekend Zowie went four times in just one walk!
    
    Shouldn't be anything to worry about.  Once they're used to the
    new food they should settle back to normal.
    
    Karen, Tristan, Tenzing and Max.

    	more info from Canine.....
        

                 <<< CVG::WORK1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CANINE.NOTE;1 >>>
================================================================================
Note 2200.89                       Ethoxyquin                           89 of 90
WAV14::HELVE "What was the question ..... ?"         47 lines   8-JUN-1989 11:58
                        -< More thoughts on Ethoxyquin >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just received a packet from Elaine Campbell of copied material regarding her
research on ethoxyquin and thought I would share some it with you - it's over
1/2 thick, so obviously this is a reader's digest version ...

It was interesting to read that Elaine Campbell was *not* the first to raise
this issue, nor is she the 'crazy lady' that started all this concern. The
woman who did is from Newark, DE, and the reason was that she lost 4 dogs in
4 months.  Three of her dogs died due to cancer or tumors in the liver, and
the 4th died of cancer under the tongue.  These 4 dogs represented 23 obedience
titles and all of her demonstration and therapy dogs.  

'Hawley's Condensed Chemical Dictionary' carries a hazard warning - Toxic by 
Ingestion - has a toxicity rating of 3, is a known skin irritant, and may 
produce reversible liver changes.  The most sensitive species to develop
Ethoxyquin-induced pathological changes are dogs - per James Corbin, University
of Illinois, College of Agriculture.  Question - when does an owner know that
changes are ocurring in the liver, and to do something to 'reverse' it ??????

The letters from Monsanto and Iams are disturbing.  Monsanto claims it is safe,
with only occasional concerns raised as to its safety over the years. (oh, so
people have been questioning it over the years ...)  The letter relates to
the woman raising current concerns because 'her dogs were lost to death', 
saying it was was perhaps regetful but there currently there is no scientific
evidence to prove that ethoxyquin is in any way unsafe.  But neither can
Monsanto give any evidence to prove that it has been tested and is safe. They
mention experiments with dogs which have lasted for 'up to five years,' with 
only minor irritations that were caused by increased ethoxyquin levels, which
disappeared after the ethoxyquin levels were reduced to 'recommended' levels.
However, in real life dog foods, ethoxyquin can be in the chicken, beef, or
wheat BEFORE additional levels are added to preserve the fat.  Therefore, we
really don't know what levels we are feeding our dogs.  Iams' evidence that
ethoxyquin is safe is taken from Monsanto, so they have no evidence either
for nor against from an external, unbiased source.  Why not? because it is
cost prohibitive. Therefore, the ONLY studies done have been by Monsanto.
(and what kind of results do you think they wanted ???)  Other food companies
will point to Monsanto's evidence - so pet owner beware ......

The problem is LONG-TERM effects, particularly related to the liver. Dogs
that die at 8-10 years of age are missed, but never questioned, particularly
when diagnosed as having cancer.  People who smoke now don't see immediate
problems, but we now know what *will* happen to them later.

I will finish with a quote from an article authored by Mr. Michael Guerber:
"There simply is not sufficient, un-biased research on this product to allow
its use in pet foods."

I agree.  Kris

OK,
I'm convinced(for now).  No more Ethoxyquin for Nami.
Her regular food has it.  Is Crave OK?  I feed her Science Diet canned
but I like to leave a little something (from the grocery store) 
for her to nibble.
Becky

    
    
    	WEll I picked up a bag of the Kat Krunchies and my
    	monsters love it.... (thank God!)
    
    	JJ
    

    I want to switch to Kat Kare & Kat Krunchies as soon as this
    bag of CD is gone.  Unfortunately there are NO dealers near
    Braintree.  I think Jack knows where Erikson's in Acton is,
    tho so we'll try there.
      Nancy

        
        As far  as  the  supermarket  varieties  go,  I  think all the
        Friskies products are  free  of Ethoxyquin, and all the Purina
        dry foods contain it.  I've switched mine over to Friskies and
        they like it just as  much  (then  again,  they haven't turned
        *anything* I've ever fed them down). :^}
        
        

    Nancy:
    If you need directions to Erickson's in Action, just holler.
    I go there all of the time.
    
    Anne
    

    Re:                -< Friskies are ok >-
    
    Humm...  I could have sworn just yesterday I saw ethoxyquin on
    a Friskies box (green color).  

    Meow Mix from Purina doesn't contain Ethoxyquin.  In fact the box
    states that it is preserved with BHA.
    
    I haven't found anything else in the grocery store that doesn't
    have it.
    
    Here's the 800 number for perform again....it's real convenient,
    and came delivered within 5 days as promised.  It is about the same
    price as IAMS, and my cats love it.  It came packaged very well,
    bagged and then boxed for shipment.  The number is 800-448-2111
    or 800-858-3500.  
    
    BTW, Jo, I've been feeding it for over a week now, and haven't had
    a problem with increased stool.
    
    cin...
    

	Regular Purina Kitten Chow has it; the Dairy formula (in the cute 
	but impossible to open milk carton) doesn't.

	So why is the regular always cheaper?  Sigh...

	Beverly

From:	PICA::TRACHMAN     "ExoticSH=Persian in Underwear"  9-JUN-1989 14:41
To:	et
Subj:	Notefile CANINE Note 2200.84

    
    I found this in Canine today - thought some of you might be interested
    in  attending if you are in the area!
                                              E.T.
    

                 <<< CVG::WORK1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CANINE.NOTE;1 >>>
================================================================================
Note 2200.84                       Ethoxyquin                           84 of 95
MECAD::FORSBERG "Moments in a space of time"         12 lines   6-JUN-1989 11:03
                -< IAMS Representatives at PET SOURCE 10 June! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    
    My sister-in-law called the other night and told me that an IAMS
    representative is scheduled to be at the PET SOURCE at the Stow
    Plaza in Stow on June 10 in the afternoon.  She thought people
    concerned about this (and I agree with her) would be interested
    in approaching the representatives with questions like "What about
    Ethoxyquin?".
    
    If enough people ask perhaps they'll become concerned themselves.
    
    /Debbie

    RE:  Those who DON'T think Ethoxyquin is in Friskies ect.
    
    Ehtoxyquin is in all those supermarket types of cat food.  Sherry
    conger and I checked one day at several places.  Some had it on the
    label where others didn't, but remember I said the companies, by law,
    can use up existing stock of boxes and bags, without reflecting the 
    ingriedents change.
    
    Please, if you want to switch to a food w/ out Ethoxyquin in it,
    call the vendor and ask if you are not sure....
    
    m&n

    It's not in IAMS kitten formula...I checked the label 600000 times...
    
    Mary

    re:.85
      Thanks Anne.  I think that's where Jack got a bag of IAMS recently
    so he knows the way....he just hates making the trip  :-)
      Nancy DC
    

    Well folks, what's the latest?
    
    I re read some of the original notes to find out if the was an
    conclusive evidence or as Dr. Le Van of MAH put it just ``Old
    Wives tales!''  (Not me, I am not sexist :-)  She said she has
    not seen of any medical journals mention anything about it.  
    While I was asking her about it in the waiting room another 
    person, she (Le Van) said who was a nutritionist, told her that 
    ethoyquin is also used in lot of people food.  I have not verified 
    it though.

    About 1 month ago I called the PERFORM people and the
    person who answered the phone told me that ethoxyquin
    was in fact an ingredient in their food.
    
    So far, I have found only one version of the Friskies
    dry food that uses ethoxyquin (I think the Pink box) and
    all others are free of it. How can I call the Friskies
    cat food company and confirm that this presevative is
    not used in those mentioned. I am sort of afraid that
    this ingredient might be in everything whether it is
    mentioned or not. Does anyone have the number for
    Friskies. All I ever see is an address. I really would
    like to talk to someone, instead of receiving a form
    letter....
    
    Is Blue Seal and Kat Kare the same food? I live in
    Boylston/Northboro, (Mass) area and does anybody know
    a place near me that sells this food. My cats really
    are not too happy with Friskies or Whiskas. They loved
    Proplan and it was LOADED with ethoxyquin. 
    
    lp
    
    

    	some more comments fron CANINE.....    

                 <<< CVG::WORK1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CANINE.NOTE;1 >>>
================================================================================
Note 2200.108                      Ethoxyquin                         108 of 108
CPDW::MCDONOUGH "I'm a friend of THUNDER"            50 lines  14-JUN-1989 10:19
                            -< Observations....... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      A few more observations...
    
      **First of all, according to the Food and Drug Administration, A.K.A.
    as "The FDA", Ethoxyquin IS NOT, HAS NOT and VERY probably will NEVER
    be approved for HUMAN CONSUMPTION!! Those people from pet-food
    companies who have stated that it IS approved are B.S.'ing!! If ANYONE
    knows of companies who ARE using it in human food, they are doing
    so WITHOUT approval, and should be reported to the FDA!!!
    
      **Second, I have discovered a rather devious attempt to discount the
    dangers of this stuff with the "it's been around in animal food for 
    25 years or so..." That is true!! But what was NOT brought out is the
    simple fact that the food in question---except for the recent inclusion
    in PET FOOD---was and is food for MEAT animals!!! Meat animals live an
    average of 2 years MAXIMUM!!! Since the studys of the dangers inherent
    to Ethoxyquin have pointed toward long-term liver and immune-system
    damage, the probability of FINDING problems with MEAT animals have been 
    non-existent, and probably would NEVER occur. 
    
    
      **Third, "toxicity rating" is a misleading indicator. Toxicity testing
    has typcally been accomplished by the "LD-50" test, which consists of 
    force-feeding the tested chemical to a group of white rats, bunnies, or
    Beagles until 50% of them die---usually in a horrible state! This test
    only proves that the chemical tested will kill the test animal. A test
    of chocolate performed on dogs would get you an EXTREMELY HIGH toxicity
    rating, since chocolate is deadly to dogs, yet rats and bunnies would
    be largely unaffected by it. Also, if you notice lately there has been
    a lot of screaming about "nitrates" in processed meats, yet BROCCOLI
    has a VERY high concentration of nitrates, higher than bacon and ham in
    many cases.
    
    
      **Fourth, "BHA" has been approved for human consumption, and since
    it's approval, there have been NO problems that have been linked to it. 
    Citric acid is present in almost all fruit. Both of these have been
    approved for BOTH animal and human consumption, and NEITHER are rubber
    stabilizers, insecticides nor herbicides. I think that HISTORY tells
    the story here. We've seen no problems that are attributable to these
    two, yet we have MANY serious questions about the long-term effect of
    Ethoxyquin.
    
      **Fifth, it has become apparent that to ACCURATELY determine whether
    or not Ethoxyquin is present in pet food, you must contact the
    manufacturer. Looking on the ingredient list is not an accurate way to
    determine it, since there are some companies who have introduced it who
    have old bags, and the ingredient is not listed on those bags.
    
    
      JMcD  

    Blue Seal is the manufacturers name.  Kat Kare (and Kat Krunchies)
    are the names of the food.  So yes, they are one in the same!
    
    I recently swtiched my guys from Iams to Blue Seal Kat Krunchies
    and they like it a lot.  T.K. still prefers his bowl of Iams so
    I give him a half and half mixture.
    
    I recently went to Breeder's Pride to purchase some Triumph canned
    and the woman behind the counter told me that BHA and Ethoxy are
    almost the same preservative and she doesn't understand why people
    are getting taken in by the big Ethoxy hype.  Seems to me that there
    are a lot of feed stores losing out on Iams sales and therefore
    becoming angry about it.
    

    re: lp
    
    Agway on RT. 20 in Northboro might carry it.  I get mine at
    Countryside Farm and Garden in Uxbridge.
    

	How does one determine if a food is okay for kittens?  I'd like to 
	take our 2 off Little Frisfies, but I don't know if it's okay to
	give them "grown-up" cat food.  The LF box claims that  they need
	the extra nutrition of kitten food through the first year; this 
	may be hype, but it does have a certain logic to it!  No one has 
	mentioned anything about a Blue Seal kitten food; are *any* of them
	free of Ethoxyquin?  I suppose I could feed them a mix until they're
	a bit older; since the stuff is alleged to have negative long-term 
	effects, a year of it may be okay.

	Sigh.
	Beverly

    
    
    	Beverly,
    
    	Kat Krunchies is for both cats AND kittens!!  My kitties love
    it.  As far as whether kitten food is better or just regular cat
    food.....before all this ethoxyquin stuff started I was feeding
    Duke the Friskies kitten chow (in the milk carton) but my 4 year
    old would eat it!!  So I really can't tell!!
    
    	JJ
    

    Re. .94 (LP)
    
         There're a couple of Blue Seal dealers in Worcester (J.P. Brown,
    111 Maywood and Harding feed & Supply, 81 Water St.) but I get mine
    from Thibault's Country Store in Spencer.  Agway will carry their own
    brand of food, but not Blue Seal.
    
         FWIW there's no ethoxyquin in our Blue Seal Turkey Pellets, so I
    assume Blue Seal doesn't use ethoxyquin in any of their lines of feed.
    
         It looks like I may have to switch to Blue Seal for my cats ...
    
                                        - Andrea

    Wish there was a local Blue Seal dealer to Braintree..sigh...
    

    Wish I hadn't read that about nitrites in Broccoli....  Anyway,
    thanks for the Northboro and Worcester suggestions. I will try
    them.
    
    I called the PERFORM people today and they did in fact stop
    using ethoxyquin in their food. I asked if it was because public
    pressure and if many people called in voicing concerns over this
    preservative. She said the Carnation people have not received
    a lot of phone calls about it, but that because of the risks
    they decided to cut it out of their food WITHOUT PUBLIC PRESSURE.
    When a company does bend to consumer pressure, it's really
    because they don't want to lose the business. But, if a company
    does it without that, it makes me think they know something
    about ethoxyquin that other companies are ignoring.
    
    I have decided...NO MORE PET FOOD WITH ETHOXYQUIN!  My mother
    is convinced that our female persian Bubbles (RIP) died because
    of the food we fed her ... Special Dinners. This was a long
    time ago, but her health just faded away. I hope my cats
    like Perform. I don't think there's much else out there.
    
    As far as feeding a kitten normal cat food, would supplementing
    a kitten's diet with a vitamin pill help if normal cat food isn't
    nutritious enough or is this not a good idea?
    
    lp                
    
    
    

    
    
    Keep in mind that Kat Kare is LOWER in Magnesium and ASH 
    than Kat Krunchies.                                     
    
    PERFORM does NOT have ethoxyquin - I'm using that instead of IAMS
    now, along with Kat Kare and old mother hubbard canned.
    
    search around and look for the list of Blue Seal dealers that
    I typed in a few weeks ago.  
    
    Bridgewater, Bedford St. Feed & Supply   
    
    E.T.

    oh yeah, Kat Kare is also lower in fat !!
    
    E.T.

    see reply .36 for the list of Blue Seal Dealers in mass.

    I just printed out this note and read all the replies.  I was outraged
    at the gall of the companies that use this stuff.  My roomate and
    I just went out Saturday and replaced our cat and dog food with
    Blue Seal.  The "gang" will eat it but still want their Friskies!!!
    I have a partial bag of Friskies and Iams left which I will feed
    them in addition to the Blue Seal.  They will just have to get used
    to their new food, as their "mommies" don't want to see them get
    sick.  I think we will be writing letters to both of the companies
    explaining why we have switched.  Perhaps if enough of us do this
    then the companies will have to bend to pressure and change the
    ingredient.
    
      For those who want to know how to pronounce the word, my rooomate
    took advanced courses in High School(excuse me!!) so told me to
    say it like this:  E*thox*eh*kwin---got it!!??   By the way, we
    got our food at Soda and Pet Food City in Agawam, MA-- where they
    also have their own brand which does NOT contain the chemical. 
    They have samples but I don't know if he ships them anywhere.
    
       This thype of info makes me think more and more of taking control
    of what the "gang" eats.  I do have a cat and dog food cookbook
    which I talked about in an earlier note (don't ask which one!!!),
    either look it up or let me know and I get the title and author
    back on this file.  It even has recipes for making your own pet
    crunchies with NO preservitives.  The only drawback is the time
    it takes to make some of the food.  I don't know about you, but
    I barely have time to cook for mayself, never mind the cats and
    dog!!!   Oh well, maybe it will just come to it that we will have
    to cook for our babies too!!!
    
    Thanks for the info!  Good luck with all your babies.
    
    Debbi

    Another food that does not contain Ethoxyquin is DAD's Cat Food,
    any of the different types.  It's also not in the Dog Food either.
    There was a DAD's distributor at the show this weekend, and he was
    quite knowledgable.  Apparently, the DAD's company wrote the original
    recipe for Blue Seal, some 20 or so years ago.  It's difficult to
    find this food in the eastern part of the U.S.  But I know it's
    pretty easy to find from NY west.  It's also fairly inexpensive,
    we were quoted around $11 - $12 for 20 lbs.  It has a lower fat
    content, 10%, than many of the foods, but it has a high protein
    content, and is low in ash and magnesium.
    
    They weren't selling it at the show, but I talked the rep into giving
    me a 3.5 lb bag.  The gourmet flavor looks similar to meow mix,
    so it does have dye in it.  I understand that DAD's may ship cases
    of boxes.  I'll try to find an address and phone number on my bag
    tonight.
    
    There is one dealer in Mass, somewhere on the cape.
    
    
    There were also reps from Triumph, IAMS, and Purina at the same
    show.  Most of them were very familiar with Ethoxyquin and when
    I mentioned it, were all ready to give me a song and dance about
    how safe it was.  I told them I didn't care how much they told me
    it was safe, until they showed me some information from a research
    study to prove that, I wasn't feeding anything with the s*it in
    it.  I didn't even want the free samples!!!  They all had a nice
    dance, but nobody had any proof.  I think these companies are already
    beginning to feel the "squeeze" from what I've been hearing.
    
    cin
    

>    There were also reps from Triumph, IAMS, and Purina at the same
>    show.  Most of them were very familiar with Ethoxyquin and when
>    I mentioned it, were all ready to give me a song and dance about
>    how safe it was.  I told them I didn't care how much they told me
>    it was safe, until they showed me some information from a research
>    study to prove that, I wasn't feeding anything with the s*it in
>    it.  I didn't even want the free samples!!!  They all had a nice
>    dance, but nobody had any proof.  I think these companies are already
>    beginning to feel the "squeeze" from what I've been hearing.
    
Have you guys the address for the IAMS and PURINA foods so those of us
with cats that throw up EVERYTHING but IAMS (or PURINA, perhaps) might
have somewhere to write and protest?  I did not find an address on the
current bag I have...it was cut down as we emptied it, so the address may
be on the bag, but just not on my bag at this time.  I narrowed down the
available foods from IAMS and SCIENCE DIET to just IAMS in the last
year due to one or the other of the cats' allergies to the other foods
on the market...and now you tell me the IAMS have bad chemicals -- I'm
stuck here, Hannah and Tabby simply cannot keep anything else down!  We
even tried the perscription foods from the vet to no avail.  Everything
else is immediately upchucked.   

Delivered to my door...to sit in the hot sun all day before I get home,
IF it sat there until I got home, rather than walking away with someone
walking by....no, it's just not a good way to handle the cat food 
issue - I have no place to have the food stored until I can get to it
and if the post office holds it for me, then I have to fight for a
parking space on Saturday to get it.  I see flaws in the "delivered to
my door" convenience....besides, a free sample a friend offered suffered
the same indignity the other foods had...one of the fur faces upchucked
back into the food bowl, leaving the other 3 without any kibble all day...
and pretty hacked-off about it, too! 8^}

		D-who-still-loves-the-little-devils-anyway

    RE: .108

    Note 666 is sort of a central repository for addresses and phone numbers
    of pet food, products, services and suppliers. It has the keyword
    ADDRESS.

    Deb

    We switched to Kat Kare after the Science Diet was all gone, and
    thankfully, everyone eats it, including Miss "I-will-turn-my-nose-
    up-at-anything-but-Science-Diet-and-Sheba" aka Dream.
    
    It's funny, Charm was starting to get some grey in around her
    muzzle, which I put down to age, but since she's getting the
    Kat Kare, it's starting to go away somewhat.
    
    Given some of the other notes, perhaps I switched just in time.
    
    Mary-Michael

                   <<< VAXWRK::NOTES$:[NOTES$LIBRARY]FELINE.NOTE;1 >>>
                               -< Meower Power >-
================================================================================
Note 2483.109            Ethoxyquin?  dangerous or not?               109 of 112
IAMOK::GERRY "Home is where the Cat is"              17 lines  26-JUN-1989 16:56
                  -< Try PERFORM, really, it's GREAT stuff! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I'll search for addresses tonight.  But, have you tried PERFORM???
    
    They'll send you a free trial package, just call 800-858-3500 or 
    800-448-2111. 
    
    Also, if anyone is going to order the stuff, my ID # is 9463810,
    if you give them my ID # I'll get a $5 referral fee.  
    
    The stuff is really good food.  My cats are doing very well on it,
    and delivered it's about the same price as IAMS or Science Diet
    and it doesn't have Ethoxyquin.
    
    The convenience of not having to go and pick it up is also wonderful,
    especially for us folks that get 100 or so lbs at a time.  Also,
    on large orders over $100, they start giving you a percentage off.
    
    cin
    
    

    Re: delivered to the door...
    
    My UPS person puts the food in our small storage shed next to the
    house.  I guess I'm pretty fortunate to have a UPS person that seems
    to care about where and how he leaves our things.  We seem to order
    alot of things that are delivered UPS.  It's the same delivery person
    all the time.  I don't know if UPS handles things in your area
    differently than the P.O.   But then again, our Mailman is also
    pretty service oriented.  And we get fast delivery too.
    
    I have some extra kitten samples, if anyones interested, contact
    me by mail.
    
    cin
    

    I had tried calling the PERFORM 800 number for a sample, however
    they won't give you one unless you place an order.  The woman on the
    phone got quite rude, and told me I was wasting her time,when I told 
    her I didn't want to order any just yet but wanted to see if my finicky
    eater would like it.
    
    Kinda defeats the purpose of a "sample" if you have to by a bag anyway.

    Gee, this is odd.  I just called the 800 number, 800-858-3500, and
    they said they would be happy to send out free samples, WITHOUT
    an order...AS LONG AS YOU HAVE NEVER ORDERED BEFORE.  
    
    In fact, the new TV commercial that I saw this week for perform
    said the same thing...Call for your free sample.  
    
    The person I just talked to was very nice, and I told him why I
    was calling...I wouldn't have suggested that anyone call for free
    samples if I thought it was going to be a problem.
    
    Be sure that you call 800-858-3500 for the free samples.  BTW, with
    your first order, they will send you a free 3.5 lb bag.
    
    Please, try giving them a call again.  This food really is good
    stuff.
    
    cin
    

    re: 116
    
    I have been feeding Perform now for about 3 weeks and have noticed
    a big improvement since taking Lil off IAMS.  She has more energy,
    her coat looks better, stools are fine, eyes are bright and 
    she LIKES it!  I discovered that I was feeding my alters healthier
    food than I was feeding the cat I plan to breed!  Blue Seal and
    Old Mother Hubbard are all natural with no chemical preservatives
     -  the IAMS that I had been feeding my Exotic has a chemical
    preservative.  Didn't make sense to me so I switched.  
    
    I ordered a 3.5 lb. bag and received a second 3.5 lb. bag free.
    I received my order in 3 days - it was very well packaged and I
    have no problems ordering from them.  The size of the food is little
    round balls - my munchkin has no problem eating it and really asks
    for it!  I figured I'd give it a try and see what happened.  I'm
    very pleased so far.  It's the same price or LESS cost than the
    IAMS and it's delivered to my door.  I can deal with that with 
    no problem.
    
    E.T.
    

    re: .116
    
    cin-
    
    I had called a few months ago, when it first came out and I had started
    having problems w/ Nippa's eating (and barfing) habits.  Maybe they
    have changed their policy since then because it didn't make much sense.
    
    Nippa is happy with Blue Seal, so I think I'll stick with it.
    
    m&n

    re:118
    
    Blue Seal is less expensive and doesn't have Ethoxyquin, so that's
    great.  I'm using Blue Seal Kat Kare too.  
    
    
    BTW, E.T. and I talked after she switched Lil to Perform the same
    improvements she noted, I also saw in my cats after switching them
    from IAMS to Kat Kare.  
    

    I've switched my crew to a mix of the Blue Seal Kat kare and Kat
    Krunchies.  I had Jack get one of each to try it out, but after
    I saw the amount of Ash in the Krunchies I decided I didn't want
    to feed the older cats that much so they get 1/2 & 1/2.  The don't
    like it as much as the Hills CD (they still canned in the morning)
    but they're eating it.
      Nancy

    I don't think this food was mentioned in here so I thought I would
    enter it.
    
    			Nutro Max Cat Food
    			Maximum Nutrition Cat Food
    			Made with Chicken & Lamb Protein
                        Low Magnesium, Ash & PH
    			Essential Taurine Level
    
    			Manufactured by:
    
    			Nutro Products, Inc.
    			445 Wilson Way
    			City of Industry, California
    			(818) 968-0532
    
    My local feed store carries this and I thought I would give it a
    try.  There is no Ethoxyquin in it and the igredients look excellent.
    Last night, I put out a bowl of Nutro Max Cat next to a bowl of
    Blue Seal Kat Krunchies.  When I woke up this morning, the Nutro
    Max bowl was almost gone!  Even fussy T.K. ate it and he is strictly
    and Iams cat (his choice, not mine).
    
    Anyway, listed below are the ingredients in Nutro Max Cat.  The
    woman at the feed store said that it is popular on the West Coast
    and is just starting to reach us here in the East.
    
    Chicken meal, corn gluton meal, wheat flour, ground rice, poultry
    fat, lamb meal, rice bran, dried egg, dried yeast, natural flavors,
    monosodium phosphate, potassium chloride, Dl-methionine, iodized
    salt, taurine, iron sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, cobalt
    carbonate, choline chloride, vitamin A acetate, D-activated animal
    sterol, d-Alpha tocopheryl acetate, niacin, calcium pantothenate,
    riboflavin, thiamine mononitrate, pyrioxide hydrochloride, menadione
    sodium bisulfite, folic acid, biotin, inositol, sodium selinite,
    vitamin B12 supplement.
    
    Forgot to mention cost:
    
    A 3 pound bag cost me $5.49.  Expensive, yes, but my feed store
    tends to mark up their prices considerably so it might be less
    expensive elsewhere.  They also carried a larger size (7-8 lb.,
    I think) which retailed for $9.99.
    
    Thought I would enter this as another alternative in case anyone
    was interested.
    
    
    /Roberta
    
    			

    just for the record, who and where is your local feed store?
    
    Deb

    Deb, I live in North Grafton and the feed store I go to is Consumer
    Pet Center in Westboro.  They just started carrying it.
    
    
    /Roberta
    

    Roberta-
    
    Is this stuff in a Purple Striped Bag?  If it is I was there
    a few weeks ago and saw it on the bag ingredients for Dog Food.
    Did they have a number to call and verify it?
    
    COuntryside in Uxbridge is also an excellent place to get pet foods.
    A case of the Science Diet canned costs about $24.00.  (Consumer Pets 
    charges a dollar more for the same case).
    
    Michele

    Michele - the purple striped bag is the dog food; cat food comes
    in an orange and black tiger-striped bag.  I am very impressed with
    the stuff!  The cats seem to be too.
    
    When I get home tonight, I'm going to compare the Nutro Cat ingredients
    to that of Blue Seal and see how they match up.
    
    A phone number for the manufacturer is printed in reply 121 FYI.
    
    I will have to check out Countryside someday.  Thanks for the tip.
    
    
    /Roberta
    

    Roberta,
    
    Our cats love it, too!!!  They just can't wait until I open the
    crunchy food container. Then they stand up on their hind legs, daintily
    reach over the edge to pick up one piece between their lips, and
    then run off with it so that no one can take it while they're eating.
    These cats act as if the food is a prized possession to be enjoyed
    in private.  I found it out here at about 20.99 for 20 lbs.  At
    that price, it was almost the same amount I was paying for IAMS.
    
    Oh, BTW, the raccoon loves it, too.  The other night we had neglected
    to fill the outside bowl and the visiting raccoon climbed the ladder
    by the window (Sammie uses it to get off the roof), and stared in
    as if searching for more food to eat.  The cats inside
    were amazed!!!  (So were we.)
    
    Jill

    Jill, I just cannot believe how much this food is enjoyed by the
    cats!  A 3 pound bag is gone in 3 days!!  Even Kirby (he's a *doll*
    and a fiesty little guy too!), our new little one, selected Nutro
    Max over the other dry foods (Bill-Jac and Blue Seal Kat Krunchies).
    I'm gonna see if I can buy this stuff in the 20 lb. bags as well.
    
    Looks like both of us are suckers for wildlife.  Last year, we had
    a racoon who used to eat on the deck right in front of the slider,
    while all of the cats lined up at the window watching from the inside.
    The racoon was unfazed by all of the attention.  I had to stop putting
    out dry food because it was attracting skunks and they were getting
    much too brave, making themselves right at home on our deck.
    
    Anyway, glad there's another Nutro Max user.  Our cats must have
    really good taste!
    
    
    /Roberta
    

    RE: wildlife - We leave out food too.  I figure that the raccoons
    are going to dine at our place so if I leave food out they'll stay
    out of the trash. It works.  
      One day we were in Stop and Shop to pick up some S&S brand dry
    for the skunk and raccoons and we started discussing which flavor
    to get.  Jack stopped us and said "Do you realize we're trying to
    figure out which flavor catfood the skunk will like?"  :-)
    We just grabbed the closest bag.
    
      BTW - I ordered some Perform canned and dry.  The cats LOVE it.
    The woman I talked to on the phone was very helpful, the food arrived
    in a very reasonable time - less than she had told me - and they
    left it on the back stairs as requested.  The food is cheaper than
    Hills, certainly more convenient and the .95 or 1.95 Shipping and
    handling charge is VERY reasonable.
      Nancy DC
    

    Has anyone found a light formula cat food that contains no ethoxyquin?
    
    Karen, Tristan, Tenzing and Max.

I have been reading this note avidly as I'm sure many of you have been
also.  After all, who isn't concerned with the health of their cats?

Nocis had an appointment at the vets this last weekend and I asked Dr.
Brian Holub of Countryside Veterinary Clinic in Chelmsford about
Ethoxyquin.  He felt very strongly about a number of points:

1) the "scare stories" all originated from one breeder in Maine who has
no facts, only opinion.

2) ALL cat food products have ethoxyquin in them (even Kat Care, Perform
etc.).  When you call them and ask, they are NOT REQUIRED BY LAW to
report they have ethoxyquin in their product if they purchase their fat
pre-treated!  Dr. Holub says we should ask, if they don't use
Ethoxyquin, what fat preservative is used?  Nitrates (the only other fat
preservative he can think of that is used) are worse, he claims.  

3)  The amount of ethoxyquin used as a preservative (1 tsp. to a ton of
fat) is so small, it's difficult to cause problems.  He claims that 1
tsp. of even the most toxic chemicals used in that large amount of fat
which is even further reduced when processed into cat food, wouldn't be
lethal or harmful (he did mention like 1 or 2 exceptions to this-- but I
can't remember what off-hand).

4)  The danger of rancid fat is *far* more lethal than any dangers
associated with ethoxyquin, proven or not.

At any rate, Dr. Holub mentioned that he had quite a few people asking
about ethoxyquin lately (all were from Digital, and all mentioned the
FELINE notes conference).  At any rate, I said I'd enter his information
into the notes file.  I had previously brought 2 bags of Perform to try
since I had thought it did not contain ethoxyquin, however, I'm going to
    switch back to Hills.  Dr. Holub holds the opinion that Perform is just
    grocery store quality cat food delivered to your door...

Just thought I'd let you all know (just one more piece of the puzzle).
Ruby

    Hi Ruby,
    
    Dr. Holub is a wonderful vet who's opinion I respect very much.  He
    saved little Skyler Van Grayson's life a few years back.
    
    I've been feeling kinda guilty for continuing to feed the gang the same
    high quality food (Science Diet, Iams) even with all the bad press. 
    I think I'll stop worrying about everything me or the kids eat...
    
    Mary

    A comparison of the label of Perform to the label of Iams or Science
    Diet would solve the puzzle as to whether or not it was just "grocery
    store food delivered to your door".  I don't have both kinds, only
    the Iams, so if any of you have both, maybe you could check it out
    for the rest of us and report here.
    
    Jo

    re: 130
    
    What brand of cat food does Dr. Holub sell through his office?

    Does anyone know if "Feline Vitality" has ethox in it?  I read the bag
    and did not see it listed in the ingredients...It's supposed to be
    comparable to IAMS.
    
    -Chris

    No, Feline Vitality does no have ethoxyquin in it.  I also asked
    this question at my last trip to Breeder's Pride.  They said Feline
    Vitality is a natural food.  My cats really didn't care for it.
    

    This is my opinion only!!!  My general feeling about ethoxyquin, and
    cat foods is that everyone hs to decide for themselves.  
    
    I would like to say this about the comments in .130...
    
    1.  The original person to  bring ethoxyquin into the public eye was
    not from maine, but from North Weymouth MA.  
    
    2.  Ethoxyquin is not approved for human consumption, and Monsanto has
    no plans of trying to get it approved.  
    
    3.  BHA, Vitamin E and C has been used very safely for many years, and
    is approved for human consumption.
    
    4.  Ethoxyquin is now preferred by pet food companies because it
    extends the shelf live for dry food.  When other methods are used the
    food looses much of it's nutritional value if stored beyond 8 or 10
    months.  
    
    5.  Ethoxyquin is a known rubber stabilizer, and herbicide.  Ethoxyquin
    is also know to cause reversible liver damage in dog that were fed high
    doses.
    
    6.  From all my reading, I can find no studies done on ethoxyquin by
    any party other than Monsanto.  
    
    7.  There have been no studies whatsoever conducted on cats.  There
    have been studies done on rats, rabbits and dogs, but not cats.  We all
    know that cats and dogs do not react the same way to the same chemical,
    take aspirin for example.
    
    The talked to people at the IAMS booth this weekend, when I asked them
    about testing on cats, their comment was: "Who would allow their cats
    to be used for this testing?"  I said: "Exactly".  
    
    I will not allow my cats to be the guinea pigs for ethoxyquin.  Having
    lost 2 cats last year to liver failure, on a 99% Iams diet, I switched. 
    Last year was about the worst year I had in the last 9 years of
    breeding.  After switching to foods without ethoxyquin I have seen a
    noticeable improvement in both the overall health and looks and energy
    level in my cats.  
    
    As far as the Perform food being grocery store food delivered, I would
    have to disagree.  It does have a lower fat content than IAMS, but it
    still has the same high protein level, and is low in magnesium and ash
    content.  The foods are also 100% guaranteed.  Perform does not contain
    ethoxyquin...it did when it was first produced but the Perform people
    removed ethoxyquin in January of 1989.  They now preserve with BHA and
    Vitamin E and C.  
    
    I talked with Elaine Campbell, the dog breeder from North Weymouth, and
    she said that they had been testing foods, in particular foods that
    were not supposed to contain Ethoxyquin.  Perform did not contain
    Ethoxyquin, as well as the Blue Seal products.  Lick Your Chops did
    contain very low levels of ethoxyquin.  There is also a product called
    Natural Life that she said did not contain Ethoxyquin, I understand
    that this can be purchased from the health food stores.
    
    Like I said in the beginning, everyone has to make their own choice. 
    I've made my choice based on what I have seen with my own eyes.  Look
    around, talk to lots and lots of breeders, there are too many young
    cats right now dying of liver and kidney problems.  Ethoxyquin may not
    affect every cat, but my feeling is why take a chance.
    
    These are my opinions only...
    
    

    Okay, how about some discussion.  I know there are lots of people in
    here who have changed their cats diet since finding out about
    Ethoxyquin, and alot who haven't.  
    
    Here's a few more tidbits of info that I think are interesting.
    
    If Ethoxyquin is supposed to be so wonderful, why is it so hard for the
    pet food makers to prove it.  I called a good number of them, and
    received a pile of information packages, the package from each food
    maker was almost identical.  It was the study done by monsanto.  
    
    If Ethoxyquin is so wonderful, how come so many companies won't tell
    you it's in their food even if their getting it second source??
    
    If Ethoxyquin is so wonderful, how come companies, especially the
    larger ones, aren't telling us that they added it and all the benefits
    were getting from it??
    
    How come everytime I talk to one of these food companies their all oh,
    so quick to say that this is all a bunch of hysterics.  And if that's
    what they want to claim, how come they have no proof of the benefits of
    ethoxyquin.  
    
    The only benefit that has been voiced to me has been that by using the
    ethoxyquin, we get a longer shelf life.  I don't know about you guys,
    but I don't like the idea that the food I'm going to buy may be older
    because now it has a longer shelf life.  
    
    BHA, Vitamin E and C are more expensive to use.  It's also more
    expensive to purchase poultry meals, etc that are preserved using BHA
    and Vitamin E and C.  
    
    I haven't seen any reduction in price from the food companies now using
    Ethoxyquin, when before they were using a more expensive process.  They
    definitely didn't pass on the savings to the consumer.  So, who do you
    think is making more profit???
    
    What I'ld like to discuss, is the reasons people have or haven't made
    the switch.  
    
    Of course, everyone knows I've made the switch.  I noticed several
    things since switching that I think are important to note.  First of
    all, during the initial switch, everyone ate a little less, probably
    because of the change, but after a short while, there was a general
    increase in everyone's appetite.  I also noticed increased energy
    levels (about as much increase as your going to see in a persian!),
    brighter and shinier coats, NO MORE DANDRUFF, less teary eyes, and no
    URI's.  URI's and runny eyes are common in persians.  I haven't had a
    URI now since November and I made the switch in October.  I have just
    seen a generally more healthy cattery.  I have had no reproductive
    problems, this year, with 2 litters born so far.  Not even a teary or
    stuck eye in the bunch.  Even my vet has commented on the overall
    health and vigor of this year's kittens.  
    
    My feeling is that persians/exotics/himalayans, tend to be more
    sensitive than other breeds.  If you notice most flea products have a
    caution for persians.
    
    I'ld like to know what other people think.  Do you think it's all
    hysterics, or is there really something here???  Has anyone else seen a
    change in coat texture or color after making the switch??  What about
    activity level???  
    
    Hoping to get some discussion going
    cin
    

    Cin, I think you bring up some very valid points.  In an earlier
    note, I mentioned Nutro Max Cat which my cats LOVE.  Well, after
    reading that not all companies list ethoxyquin, esepcially if they
    buy their poultry fat second source, I decided to give them a call.
    Lo and behold:  they DO use ethoxyquin and the woman told me that
    several people have contacted them in regards to it.  Of course
    she was pro-ethoxyquin, stating that it is used in such miniscule
    amounts and it takes a lot more BHA to preserve the fat; therefore,
    the cats ingest more and it is difficult to excrete.  With ethoxyquin,
    the amount used is so small that it is easily flushed out of the
    body and vital organs.  I have to admit, she presented her case
    very well and had me pretty much convinced that the small amount
    of ethoxyquin they use in their product is not going to harm my
    cats.
    
    Overall, I don't know what to think anymore.  I am not a breeder
    and therefore do not have to worry about the affects of ethoxyquin
    in a reproductive aspect.  I also feed my cats canned food twice
    a day, so the amount of dry they eat on a daily basis is significantly
    less that those folks who feed a strictly dry diet.  My cats love
    the Nutro Max Cat.  They also love Iams.  I do feed Blue Seal and
    if it is the only food out, they will eat it.  But it sits out a
    lot longer than if I left out a bowl of Nutro Max or Iams.
    
    My opinion is that I want my cats to eat what they like.  I also
    realize that they do not always know what is and what is not good
    for them.  I think I will continue to purchase Iams and Nutro Max
    and mix it with equal parts of a food that does not contain
    exthoxyquin.  With my brood, I consider it a safe and happy medium.
    
    
    /Roberta
    

         I am also confused at this point.  I went from IAMS to PERFORM.
    I originally tried CD, but neither of my cats would eat it.  I even
    tried feeding it to a very hungry stray cat who wouldn't eat it.
    I haven't really noticed any difference in the cats since I made
    the switch except that they seem to "upchuck" less than when I feed
    them IAMS.  
         I am taking Malcolm to the Countryside Clinic in Chelmsford
    tommorrow for his checkup.  I am going to ask Dr. Holub why he
    thinks PERFORM is no better than grocery store food.  For now,
    I think I'll stick to PERFORM until I hear something definate one
    way or the other.  My cats like it better than IAMS.
    
    
    					Mary
    

    Roberta,
    
    Thanks for your reply.  These are the kinds of things I want to know. 
    I may have been more affected by ethoxyquin because of my breed, and
    the fact that I feed a mostly dry diet.  The reason for the mostly dry
    diet is because I don't feel comfortable with leaving wet food out all
    day.  And we do have to work, you know! ;-)  
    
    What makes me wonder the most is that if ethoxyquin is supposed to be
    such GREAT stuff, how come most of the companies try to hide the fact
    that it is in the food???  Why don't they come out and say: "We've
    found this great new preservative, and this is what it's going to do
    for you?"   No company has any proof to be able to tell you
    conclusively that the ethox is indeed excreted easier than BHA or more
    completely.  If they do, I'ld like to see the research study!  What
    they do know is that they have to use less to preserve more, and that
    by using Ethox they can lengthen the shelf life.  
    
    In the last 2 years, IAMS has gone from $19.00 for a 20 lb bag to
    almost $25.00.  If ethoxyquin is less expensive to use than BHA, etc.,
    why haven't we seen a decrease in prices since 1988???  
    
    I'm concerned about the long term effects on my cats.  I'ld like to see
    organ studies done on cats being fed ethox for say 7 years or so.  
    
    I'm worried that my cats are being used as the "guinea pigs".  
    
    Doesn't anything think it's funny that Elaine Campbell, the author of
    the original article, hasn't been sued???  If these companies could
    prove her wrong, they'ld have a hell of assault, but if they
    couldn't...???  She's been very vocal about downing ethoxyquin, and not
    one company, monsanto included, has done anything about it.  I think
    they're all hoping we think it's hysteria.
    
    BTW, it seems that most breeders that are having problems are feeding
    IAMS, but that may be because that is the most commonly fed food among
    breeders.  I don't think that any breeder will escape having problems
    occasionally, and maybe last year was my year.  I don't know.  
    
    I'm glad you took the time to respond, Roberta, I can only learn how
    people feel by asking questions.  
    
    BTW, I still have some IAMS, 3 4lb bags...anyone interested???  I bet I
    can get you a great price!  ;-)
    
    cin
    

    re: .139
    
    Mary,
    
    I'ld love to hear what your vet has to say about Perform.  I'm very
    pleased with the results I have had on it.  And my cats love it.
    
    thanks
    cin
    

    Cin,

    I'm not making any judgment here about if this stuff is good or bad,
    but *I* suspect that the reason that the pet food companies haven't
    got any proof that there is not a problem is because the company
    management isn't convinced that there is a problem, therefore don't
    want to spend the money to do the research. So, I think the first step
    in getting to the bottom of this is to somehow get the head honchos of
    these companies really concerned about it. I know that you fed your
    crew IAMS, so if I were you, I'd try to get Paul Iams himself
    interested in the problem.
     
    Deb

    re: .142
    
    Deb's got a very interesting point - $$$$$$$$$$$  I think that IAMS
    is making enough money that it certainly could afford to do some
    serious research.  Maybe I'm wrong....
    
    I switched also - I felt that I was feeding my 17 alters a healthier
    diet than my breeding female - all natural for the alters and food
    with chemicals/rubber stabilizer for the cat that I want to produce
    healthy kittens ???  It didn't add up.  She looks better, feels
    better, has even more energy than she had (sigh, she is a very
    busy young lady), loves Perform - seems to enjoy it much more
    than the IAMS, which she seemed to pick at but did eat.  I, too
    would like to see some actual research done - I wouldn't want them
    using my animals though - what to do what to do ??    
    
    Anyone else notice any difference from changing to another food
    without "E", like Kat Kare for example????
    
    E.T.

    Well, I don't know what to think or do either.  I am still feeding
    Iams occassionally, but have started using other brands too, in
    hopes of finding a perfect match.  The cats seemed to like Perform,
    but I didn't like what happened in their litter box habits.  Maybe
    I didn't give it enough of a chance.  
    
    I have also had more health problems in my cattery this year, but
    whether it is due to ethoxyquin, or the fact that my numbers have
    increased drastically in the last year is not known.  And the types
    of health problems don't seem to be following a pattern. 
    
    I feed a diet of mostly canned food to most of my cats.  I use the
    Science Diet Feline Growth cans.  The cats get that twice a day,
    and then can munch on dry food it they are hungry when I am at work,
    or asleep.  Kalliste is on C/D, so that settles his diet.  The
    household pets are on either C/D (the males), or light maintenance,
    (the female).  The household pets all eat the dry versions.
    
    I think that Cindy has brought up some interesting points.  I
    especially agree with the "why haven't they sued" argument.  She
    could be sued for slander if there really is no reason to suspect
    ethoxyquin.
    
    I have also noted many cats of my breed dying from liver and kidney
    failure at a very young age.  Like before 6 years old!  Now that
    is not good.  Cats shouldn't be dying of those kinds of things unless
    they are very old.
                                     
    Maybe I will give Perform another try.  This time introducing it
    gradually.  Sure wish I could get the Blue Seal out here.
    
    Jo

    After considering all the notes and asking my vet about it, I decided
    that there was insufficient evidence on either side of the arguement.
    I reasoned that if Ethoxyquin wasn't dangerous and I switched to
    foods comparable to CD but without ethox. it would make no difference.
    If Ethox IS dangerous and I'd switched then my cats would be better
    off.  I will mention tho, that I did not throw out my left over
    dry CD.  I just feed it occasionally, like once or twice a week.
    When its gone I won't replace it.
      So for now the menu goes as follows:
    
      Morning 1/2 can of CD or Perform split 4 ways.  I would note that
    when I feed Perform there is not a scrap of it left 5 mins after
    I put it down.  Its very popular.
    
      Evening Dry 1/2 Kat Care and 1/2 Kat Crunchies (I decided that
    the Crunchies were too high in some things so I'm "diluting" it)
    and Dry Perform.  Occasionally some dry CD.
    
    Note: My vet discouraged me from "free feeding" the cats as it makes
    it difficult to monitor eating habits when you have multiple cats.
    Also, Isis is about 1.5-2 lbs overweight and if I leave the food
    out she'll eat it.
    
    So basically I'm taking the safe approach and watching and waiting.
    I agree that Cindy has some very interesting points there.
      Nancy DC
    

    I saw Dr. Holub at the Countryside Clinic in Chelmsford.  I asked
    him about Ethoxyquin and why he thought that PERFORM in comparable
    to grocery store cat food.  First of all, he has been looking into
    this and has been in touch with some of the food manaufacturers.
    His feeling is that there is no scientific reason for anyone to
    think that there is something wrong with ethoxtquin.  He also feels
    that is is ethoxyquin in all cat food whether they say there is
    or not.  They are not required by law to tell you that it is in
    their food if is an ingredient in a product that they add to their
    food.  He did not say that he knows that ethoxyquin is ok, only
    that it has been used for years and there is no evidence that it
    is a problem.
    
    
         As far as PERFORM, he is not convinced that there is no ethoxyquin
    in it.  He thinks it contains too much salt and that that is the
    reason cats seem to like it more than the IAMS...
    
         He said the biggest differences in the HILLS and IAMS products
    vs. the grocery store products are that the HILLS and IAMS companies
    guarantee 100% of the igredients and live test every batch of food
    before they ship it.  The grocery store foods and PERFORM only
    guarantee about 50% of the ingredients and do not live test their
    food.  Because the other 50% of the ingredients can change, your
    cat food isn't consistant.  He feels that this is why some cats
    get sick on their food some of the time for unexpalained reasons.
    
         Dr. Holub has cats and breeds cats.  He isn't worried about
    ethoxyquin.  He doesn't have any facts to prove that ethoxyquin
    is ok, but I feel he has made an informed decision.
    
    				Mary

    Well, I switched from Science Diet Light to Kat Care,
    and I've seen a little difference in about a month.  Dream
    still upchucks dry about once a week or so (she's been
    checked out, she's fine, she just tends to eat a bit
    fast sometimes).  They do eat less, and the boxes smell
    a bit less, but I'm still having some trouble with Dream's
    eyes (chronic condition due to breed, Oriental's have very
    deep-set eyes).  Charm, however, (8 years old) is more
    energetic, and the white hairs she was getting before on
    her muzzle are slowly going away.  My pocketbook is very
    happy, since Kat Kare is about 1/2 the price of SD.  Their
    coats have remained healthy, but in all truth, they aren't
    as nice as they were when I had them on IAMs.
    
    Mary-Michael
    
    
    

    I had Mocha and Ming on following diet.
    
    IAMS in the dish at all times for free feeding
    Morning feeding = 1/2 can for each cat of Sheba (they were no hungry
    at night.)
    
    Mocha had these little bumps all over his neck. Vet thought it was
    a food allergy and so I took them off Sheba. Went through all kinds
    of other canned food and Whiska's they decided was better than nothing.
    When this note started I was almost out of dry food so decided I
    would try and switch them to Kare Care (Blue Seal) and they didn't
    like it anywhere's near as much as they liked IAMS, but.....Mocha's
    bumps went away. They still do not like the Blue Seal as well as
    IAMS and have to feed them 1/2 each  at night as they are so hungry.
    (They finally decided Whiska's is really pretty good. Just in time
    as Sheba has gone up to 59 cents a can instead of 2/$1.00) Noticed
    since Market Basket marked Sheba up, they are never out of it. Guess
    a lot of people just wouldn't spend that extra 18 cents a day times
    7 = $1.26 x 4= $5.04 a month. What with the vet bill and everything
    else these critters can be expensive.
    
    I talked with the vet while I had Ming in for her surgery about EXO
     and he said,"not enough testing has been done on it and his
    cats and dogs do very well on it with no side effects and until
    more study is done he was going to continue to use it."
    
    My two have great coats, and body wise look just right to me, and
    they have always had a lot of energy. Guess we'll stick to what
    I am doing now.
    
    Barbara

    The following is taken without permission from the July/August issue of Cat
    World International.
    
                          NO SATISFACTORY RESPONSE
                          
    Some time back, CWI (Cat World International) commented on the claim
    by Monsanto Agricultural Company that Ethoxyquin, an antioxidant
    used in pet foods, was safe for "pets".  CWI's question prevails--
    what about its use in CAT food?  That's C-A-T, Monsanto!  A letter
    from David F. Calabotta, Ph.D., Product Development Manager, Animal
    Sciences Division, reiterates it's safe, it's safe BUT his letter
    says their studies included "long term DOG exposure research". 
    A fact sheet with the letter says "research has been conducted with
    ethoxyquin in poultry, rats, rabbits, and dogs..."  While we care
    for these species, our question about cat food still needs to be
    addressed to the above at 800 N. Lindbergh Blvd., St. Louis, MO
    63167. Phone (314)694-1000.
    
    
    So, it looks like our notes community isn't the only group that
    is concerned about ethoxyquin.
    
    Jo

    re:149
    
    Way to go Jo!!  It's about time!  Thanks for entering all
    that - guess time will tell - it's really scarey what 
    could be happening to our cats.,.....

    re: .149
    
    Hi Jo,
    
    Gee, I guess they are doing tests, NOW, and any cat that is eatting the
    food with Ethoxyquin in it is one of the guinea pigs.
    
    My feelings are like this...
    
    If I switch foods, and there was no problem with Ethoxyquin, I really
    haven't lost anything.
    
    If I switch foods, and there is a problem, I have possibly saved my
    cats lives.
    
    Having all to gain, and nothing to lose, I won't feed anything with
    ethoxyquin.
    
    
    
    Jo,
    
    I'ld love to know if anything had been mentioned in Cat World
    previously.  I don't get Cat World anymore, so I appreciate you posting
    the info here.
    
    Thanks
    cin
    

    Gee Cin - sounds like my reasoning too  :-)
    

	 Back to the comments about diet change results...

	 I had switched my two to Iams back at the end of December (from
     Purina  100  and  Happy  Cat, which they had been getting all their
     lives  up to that point).  In general, I was happy with the results
     - 1 food to feed, Becky didn't throw up any more, less to clean out
     of  the litter box.  On the down side, Josh porked out on the food.
     He  lost his hips.  When he got fatter, he stopped playing so much.
     At first, I just thought he was finally growing up (at 4.5 years of
     age).   Becky  also  gained a bit of weight.  At their checkup this
     spring, both had gained a pound from the previous year and combined
     weighed 25 lbs. (12 & 13 for Becky and Josh, respectively)

	 Then, when all this Ethoxyquin stuff started, I thought, gee, I
     want  my  kitties  to  last  a long time.  Maybe I should change to
     something  without  Ethoxyquin.   So  I  changed  to  Blue Seal Kat
     <whatever - the one that doesn't say also for kittens on the bag>.

	 Well, they  liked  that food too (they are really small hoovers
     in  disguise).   Becky threw up a little for a couple of weeks, but
     hasn't  thrown  up  in  quite  a while now.  Josh now seems to have
     regained his hips, and Becky seems to have slimmed down a bit also.
     They  are  both  more  active,  back  to what they were before they
     switched  to Iams.  They also don't seem to be eating quite as much
     as they did of the Iams. 

	 One other  thing  that I noticed during this time is that their
     coat  texture  seemd to change.  It's a little hard to explain, but
     Josh's  seemed  to  get  silkier, but his skin seemed drier.  Becky
     just  seemed to have drier skin.  Now that they're on the Blue Seal
     food,  the skin dryness seems to have gone away, but the soft coats
     remain.  J&B are both short haired cats.

	 For now  I'll be sticking with the Blue Seal food.  It seems to
     be  doing right by them.  I can free-feed it without too much worry
     of coming home to hairy blimps, it suits my pocketbook, and I don't
     have to worry about my kitties being guinea pigs.

    Kathy,
    The coat condition, and a general increase in their activity level were
    some of the changes I noticed also once I switched to Blue Seal and
    Perform.  
    
    I also noticed a change in coat color in many of my cats, especially
    the red (orange) colored ones.  They went from being rusty and dull to
    very orange and full of life.
    
    I am very happy with the results.
    
    cin
    

    Reprinted without permission from the Sept. issue of Cats Magazine.
    This letter is in the 'Sound off Cat Lovers' section of the magazine
    and is from:
    
    David F. Calabotta, Ph.D
    Product Development Manager
    Animal Sciences Division
    Monsanto Agricultural Company
    800 N. Lindbergh Blvd.
    St. Louis, MO 63167
    
        Recently, a column appeared in a number of widely distributed pet
    newsletters.  The column raised several safety questions regarding
    the use of Ethoxyquin in pet foods.
        Ethoxyquin, an antioxidant used in pet foods, has been approved
    by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and used in pet food and
    animal feed for more than 30 years.  Prior to approval by the Federal
    Agency in 1956, Monsanto's Ethoxyquin product underwent several
    years of intensive safety and efficacy studies.
        Ethoxyquin, when added at the recommended level, minimizes
    oxidation. Oxidation results in the breakdown of nutrients causing
    the food to become rancid or spoiled.  When animals eat rancid food,
    they can become very sick, just as people who eat rancid food. 
    Oxidation also reduces the energy value of the fats and animal proteins
    found in the feed and destroys fat soluble vitamins during feed
    mixing and storage.
         Due to its high effectiveness as an antioxidant, the amount
    of ethoxyquin required to provide adequate protection from oxidation
    is dramatically lower than any of the alternative antioxidants.
    Thus the quest for minimization of antioxidants and preservatives
    in pet food is consistent with the inclusion of Ethoxyquin used
    today.
         Ethoxyquin, like most chemicals, has multiple uses.  However,
    this fact does not render it unsafe for pet food applications since
    each application is evaluated individually for safety and
    effectiveness. Although a crude version of Ethoxyquin is used as
    a RUBBER STABILIZER, the pet food grade verion is a more refined
    product.  Ethoxyquin has never been recommended or sold by Monsanto
    for use as an insecticide or herbicide.
         Another concern questioned has been the use of Ethoxyquin
    in human food.  Like many of the other antioxidants available for
    use in pet food, Ethoxyquin also enjoys limited human food use approval
    in specific applications.

                 <<< CVG::WORK1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CANINE.NOTE;1 >>>
                             -< Gone to the Dogs >-
================================================================================
Note 2200.134                      Ethoxyquin                         134 of 135
SUPER::MACKONIS                                      39 lines  31-AUG-1989 16:16
                               -< PLEASE READ! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I hope folks are still reading this column and it hasn't become a dead
    issue.  After discussing the problems possibly presented by ethoxyquin
    that were written in these files, my friend who feeds Purina Pro Plan
    decided to call Purina.  After about 4 phone calls with different
    people, she was told that they use .015% ethoxyquin per serving, which
    was perfectly legal and that if her dog was doing ok she shouldn't
    worry and try and cause trouble.  Next...Monsanto....as of today she
    has placed 14 calls to Monsanto, and no one ever returns her calls.
    
    Next....and this is the bright spot....she called the FDA.  She was put
    in contact with a veterinarian who was involved in the testing of
    ethoxyquin and who never really felt anything was resolved about the
    after effects of the chemical.
    
    To make a long story short...1000 dogs were tested over a five year
    period to see what effects ethoxyquin had on canines.  Also tested were
    lab rats....
    
    o	First the rats were administered a carcinogen until tumors
        developed
    o	Next Ethoxyquin was administered to these rats -- tumors went away
    o	Next rats were administered a carcinogen along with ethoxyquin,
    	nothing happens
    o	Next step, administer ethoxyquin on its own to the rats -- tumors
    	developed
    
    Kind of strange, huh?!?!
    
    Well, with this testing they decided that 150 parts per million is the
    MAXIMUM safe dosage.
    
    This veterinarian - hopefully I will have his name and address for you
    by tomorrow - would like nothing better than to have reason to make a 
    recommendation to re-open the case.
    
    THIS IS OUR CHANCE!  Let's write and state our case, make them reopen
    the case and make them do some more testing.
    
    

    I have been in contact with a Mr. George Porter from the Animal
    Care Dept of the Mass FDA.  I have contacted him twice now, both time he has
    promised to send me literature on how Ethoxyquin was approved, and the
    testing method used.  I also asked for information on the possible
    limited use of Ethoxyquin for human consumption.  I don't think it's  
    suppose to be used in human food, but some of the rebuttal I have 
    gotten verbally from a few of these pet food companies is..."Well, it's
    in certain foods that people eat too."  
    
    I still have received nothing.  

Well, At least the second time I called him, he knew what Ethoxyquin was,
but he still didn't know how to spell it!!!  
    
    I'm going to try him again next week, if I still receive the same
    response, I'm going to try going to the Federal FDA and see what I can
    stir up there.  
    
    THIS IS NOT A DEAD ISSUE FOR ME.  
    
    If you feel strongly about wanting more testing, speak up, tell
    everyone you know.  I also make sure that I tell the companies, and
    their representatives at every opportunity.  I also have sent letters
    and talked to the few companies producing foods without Ethoxyquin
    praising them and letting them know that I am recommending their foods
    to other breeders as well as pet owners.  Tell the companies that are 
    still adding Ethoxyquin why you switched.  
    
    The Canine lovers are upset about Ethoxyquin, and testing has been done
    on Dogs...I am surprised that many cat people are ambivilent about
    Ethoxyquin, especially when NO testing has been done on cats.  
    
    Our cats are "THE TEST".
    
    off my soapbox for now...
    cin...who will not allow her cats to be used for "testing"
    

    Update:
    
    I was in my local feed store this weekend buying cat food.  I noticed
    that Science Diet products had taken a major price increase, about
    10-15% on almost everything.  The owner of the store and I started
    discussing it and he said that Science Diet had taken ethoxyquin
    out of their feeds.  I checked the label on the new bags, and yes,
    ethoxyquin was no longer on the label.  In it's place was BHA. 
    Have any of the rest of you noticed this change??  The owner of
    the store attributed the major price increase to the removal of
    ethoxyquin and the addition of BHA as a preservative.
    
    Jo

    I picked up a case of CD Canned yesterday and noticed that the
    price had jumped from around $31/case to almost $35/case (incl tax).
    Now there wasn't any ethoxyquin in their canned food - maybe
    they spread the increase over all the products.
      N
    

    Yes, they did spread the increase over all their products.  I noticed
    the same thing when I bought the C/D dry for Kalliste, and the P/D
    canned for Kyrielle and Laci (they are expecting on Halloween!).
    
    The one food that didn't take that big of an increase is the Light
    Maintenance.  If I can get a chance, I think I will call their 800
    number and see if I can get the real scoop on this.
    
    I currently have one cat who I am treating for a food allergy. 
    It appears that she can no longer tolerate Iams.  After three weeks
    on Lamb and rice, her condition has cleared up completely.  I wonder
    if it would be safe to try her on the S.D. growth dry.  I will check
    with the vet.  When I mentioned the ethoxyquin to the vet, she
    indicated that though it was unlikely that Joui was allergic to
    that one ingredient, that could be what is causing her problem.
    Especially since Joui is 3 1/2 and has eaten Iams her whole life.
    She startd showing symptoms of allergy in May, and previous notes
    have indicated that Iams started adding ethoxyquin in Jan 89.  Since
    I buy cat food in large quantities at a time, and it takes a while
    to use it all up, it is possible that the May problem is a reaction 
    to the addition of ethoxyquin.  
    
    By the way, I was paying $23.95 for a case of 15 oz cans of S.D.
    growth canned, it is now $29.99!!!  AAAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!  Guess
    I will have to break down and go for the home delivery breeders
    program...
    
    Jo

    I just got off the phone with Hills.  Here is what I found out.
    
    1) Did you remove ethoxyquin from your foods?  Answer - No.  The
    lady on the phone insisted that I must have been mistaken.  She
    said that they are still using ethoxyquin, and that I must have
    been looking at an old bag.  I told her that the bag was from the
    most recent shipment, had a jazzed up label, and a sticker with
    the ingredients on it.  That is when she said that I must be mistaken.
    Stickers were used when they *added* ethoxyquin.  (I have to go
    back to the store tonight, so I will check again).
    
    2) Do you have any plans to package C/D in 20# bags?  Answer - No.
    But, she did add my name to a list of people who requested that
    they make C/D in 20# bags.
    
    3) Do you make an allergy food for cats?  Answer - No, but they
    suggest feeding their Canine DD canned.  It is made of lamb and
    rice and has added taurine.  (I will check this out with my vet
    before trying it).
    
    4)  What is the benefit of feeding P/D?  Answer - P/D is formulated
    for pregnant and lactating queens, kittens, and debilitated cats.  It 
    contains higher percentages of protein, fat, vitamins, and minerals than
    their other foods.  
    
           P/D Canned      P/D dry      Feline Growth Dry (from memory)
    
  Protein      50%           40%               34%
  Fat          31%           27%               22%   
                                           
    
    
    All this is great, but, as far as she knew, they had not removed
    ethoxyquin from their foods.
    
    Jo

    Jo-
    
    I was at the feed store last week and was checking out the new bags 
    (and prices :*( ) and I saw the BHA on the label, and no Ethoxyquin -
    I was psyched.  I asked about it and they hadn't heard anything
    about the removal of ethoxyquin so I re-read the label and ethoxyquin 
    WAS listed, near the bottom of the list-of-ingredients.  Bummer!
    
    Oh well, Nippa really likes Kitty Krunchies and it is cheap (~$5.00
    for 20 lbs.) so she'll keep getting that for her dry along w/ canned
    SD feline Maintainance,
    
    
    Michele
    

    
    
    Okay okay, I'm lazy.
    
    I've read a few notes on this ethoxyquin and it sounds scary!!
    
    Can anyone list me the brands of the foods (cat) that have it???
    Or point me out to the note?  Dry and wet.
    
    If this is a long list, I don't want to go to too much trouble,
    I can find it eventually!!!
    
    
    F.

    
    
    Also, how is this pronounced?
    
    F.

    Here's a list of the foods that don't contain Ethoxyquin...
    
    PERFORM
    LICK YOUR CHOPS
    BIL-JAC
    BLUE SEAL KAT KARE OR KAT KRUNCHIES
    DAD'S GOURMET, KITTEN, ETC.  All DAD's Dry products...
    
    Note:  DAD's products are not available in MA yet, but will be coming
    soon!!!  
    
    Perform is the preferred choice in my house!!!  
    
    cin
    

    Okay, Cin!
    
    I'll check at my house and post MY ID # so I get the % off.
    
    How are we going to stop this ID war???
    
    	;-)
    
    Can I give you credits for my orders?  Can you give me credits for
    yours?

    Yeah, Pennie, but didn't I REFER you?????  ;-)
    
    cin
    

    Shall I throw my ID number in to this mess also ???  just kidding!!
    
    E.T.

    
    
    Okay E.T.  I used your ID number, so theres one point for you,
    
    
    Everyone can take turns!!
    
    8*)
    
    F.

    I always forget to get my ID number.....of course if you give
    them my phone number they can credit me........If you want
    it send mail.
      Nancy DC  :-))))

    
    
    Whoops I forgot to thank you for posting the foods that contain
    no ethoxquin...
    
    Thank you!!!
    
    
    F. who will soon be changing dry cat foods!!
    
    

    After reading this note and others, I went out and bought Kat Kare
    and Kat Crunchies this weekend for the gang. - we are now at 4,
    but that is another story!!!  I opened the Kat Krunchies because
    of the 2 kittens and put them in the same bowl with the rest of
    the Purina.  All 4 loved them.
    
    This morning my son filled the bowl, as is his job, but he forgot
    and filled it with Purina.  Well, Esmarelda came down, headed for
    the bowl, gave us a funny look, emptied the bowl with her paws,
    and proceeded to scold my son.  We were laughing so hard!!!
    
    I have always had trouble changing foods, but htis time even picky
    old Bitser plunged right in.
    
    Thanks everyone.  Now, if I can figure out how to say "no " when
    someone needs a home for a cat!!!
    
    Ellen

    I was glad to hear DADS doesn't have it, I have avoided it without
    even knowing it!! My barn cats have gotten DADS for years, but they
    don't like the original flavor just special mix or gormet.
    Sandy
    

    re: 173
    
    Ellen, you have to learn the phrase:
    
    The Inn is Full, The Inn is Full, The Inn is Full, The Inn is Full...
    
    Try it - it didn't work very well for me, but you may have better
    luck!
    
    E.T. + 18  !!

    re: 174
    
    Sandy, I found out recently that Dad's is VERY similar to Blue Seal.
    From what I understand, a gentleman that used to own the Blue Seal
    formula, left Blue Seal.  He sold the formula and had to agree not
    to start another company for 'n' years.  Well, that time has passed
    and here we have Dad's !!  My kids like both products very much.
    I don't see much Dad's here in NH - we only see it at some NY &
    NJ cat shows.  I think it will eventually be sold up here, but I'm
    not sure just when.
    
    E.T.

    re:176
    I am in PA and we have had DADS here as long as I can remember.
    I get the cat food in 20 lb bags at the same time as I get feed
    for the horses so it is very covenient and very resonable in price.
    They also have IAMS and sience diet and a few other brands but they
    are twice the money and I couldn't see a great difference in the
    analysis. With 3 cats to feed I don't want to waste money.
    Sandy
    

    Well, I finally finished reading this note on Ethoxyquin. When I
    only had Chewy (half siamese, half Tom Cat), I never paid attention
    to what I fed her.  Anything from the grocery store.  Mostly 9-Lives
    Canned.  
    
    I then started reading this file.  Got interested in everyone talking
    about breeds that I have never heard of (Burmese, Tonkinese, etc).
    I picked up a Cat Book and looked at pictures, to place faces with
    breeds.  This is how I came to fall in love with Abysinnians.  Read
    up in this file on Abys and went to a cat show to see one.  Instant
    love of the breed and within a week I bought one.  Zula.  
    
    Now through reading this notes file I became more aware of the
    importance of a good quality cat food so swiched Chewy to Iams and
    bought Iams Kitten Food for little Zula.  I thought I was being
    a good mommy after until I read this file and am as confused as
    everyone else.
    
    The only change I have noticed in Chewy is that she seems to be
    a lot BIGGER.  She was always a very tiny cat for her age. (2 years).
    Now she seems huge after being on Iams for about 6 weeks.  I don't
    think it is my imagination either (since I now see a little kitty
    running around).  My husband thinks she is much bigger also.  I
    think part of it is her winter coat comming in and I also think
    she put on a pound or two.  That's no problem. She was small anyways
    and could probably use the extra weight.  I would have guessed her
    to be 5 or 6 lbs and now maybe around 7.
    
    Zula is the one that I am concerned with.  He wasn't eating when
    I first got him.  Probably because he was sick.  He has been on
    antibiotics and is now healthy.  Ringworm seems to be almost gone
    too.  Fur is growing back nicely. (now if I can only get rid of
    it!).  I am concerned because I know that liver problems run in
    the Aby line, or so I've read in here.  I think if Aby's are prone
    to liver problems it doesn't make any sense to take a chance with
    food that contains Ethoxyquin which may or may not cause liver
    problems.  This is my reasoning for switching.  So anyway, Zula
    is now eating like a horse.  The one problem he has left is a runny
    butt.  He really doesn't have diarreah but I am always wiping his
    butt (I don't want it on the bed, furniture, etc).  I know the breeder
    was feeding him Iams Kitten food too.  Wonder if it could be the
    reason.  I'll see what happens if I take him off.  I've been afraid
    to start feeding him any kind of canned food.  Don't want to make
    it worse.  Has anyone else had this problem in kittens?  He doesn't
    seem to want to clean himself there either.  He grooms the rest
    of himself fine.  He really stinks up the place when he sheeeets
    too.  Maybe I'm not used to it since Chewy goes outside 99% of the
    time now.  I thought they were supposed to be less stinky on a high
    quality food.  Another thing I noticed were little bumps on his
    neck.  They feel like little scabs.  I asked the vet about it and
    he said that it wasn't as bad as some cats and that was it.  I know
    he had a bad case of fleas when I brought him home.  I thought it
    may be dried blood.  I have since bombed the apartment, and have
    given him several flea baths.  Bought a can of spray from the vet
    as well for his fleas.  Fleas seem to be gone but bumps are still
    there.  Barbara Ives mentioned this in this notes back at .148.
    Anyone know what this is?  
    
    I think I'll give Blue Seal a try.  Anyone know of any locations
    in Southern NH that sell it?  It also doesn't make sense to spend
    more for a cat food that could be harmful.  I started buying Iams
    which is fairly expensive because I thought it would be better
    for the cats.  I just don't want to take any chances.
    
    Someone also mentioned in here that there is no Ethoxyquin in 
    Iams Kitten Food.  Does anyone know if this is true?  I never
    found where is was proven true or not, only that it wasn't on the
    label.
    
    I had a sample of Bil-Jac and Chewy ate it but wasn't crazy about
    it.  I don't like the looks of it.  It looks like rabbit food or
    something.  I don't blame Chewy.
    
    Pam

RE: 178 - Runny butts...

I was about to enter a note asking the same thing & then saw your note.  I 
have the same problem with Snuggles.  There's always just a little bit left 
that I have to wipe off.  We always know when it's there, because we can 
smell her before she comes into the room!  This has never happened with 
Peaches.  They're both the same age - 4 months and they're both eating 
9-Lives canned and Friskies Kitten Formula dry.  I've been thinking of 
switching to a better brand of food to see if that helps, but it looks 
like you're having the same problem even with the Iams.  If anyone has a 
suggestion, I'd love to hear it...she's leaving smelly little spots all over 
the house!

Paula

    Paul
    
    Exactly the same thing with Zula.  It's just a little bit but it
    sure is smelly!
    
    Pam

    Woops!  Sorry Paula.   I dropped an A in your name.  I type too
    fast sometimes.
    
    Pam

    My Maloclm had the same problem as a kitten.  He started to think
    it was a game when I would chase him around with a paper towel.
    He outgrew itat about 3 months of age.  I think he was just unaware
    of the need to "clean up after himself".  He also had previously
    had worms.  I'm not sure if that could have caused it or not.
    
    					Mary

    Well, Jesse doesn't run around with anything stuck to him but he
    sure has smelly you-know-what's.  And he's eating the same food
    as the rest of the bunch.  I wonder if having worms - which I assume
    he has since he has fleas - has anything to do with it.  No, wait,
    that couldn't be it because Isis and Flame had tapeworms and that
    had no effect.  
     Nancy 

re: -1

Nancy, I had heard that some cats do "smell" more when they are wormy....maybe
Jesse will become less fragrant as he gets healthier.  My vet also suggested
I try some plain, active-culture yoghurt on a stray that I rescued.  If the
cat can tolerate the milk-based product, the yoghurt will help replace the
necessary microbes in the digestive tract that may die off when the cat
isn't getting regular or healthy food.  If the food is more thoroughly digested,
it may be less odorous.

    I used plain yogurt - which he happily nibbled - when he had diahrea
    from the antibiotics.  I didn't notice any difference in odor, tho,
    just a difference (thank goodness) in consistency.
      N
    

    I am re-entering this because I made a typo when I entered the 800
    phone number for ordering.  Sorry...
    
    
              <<< VAXWRK::$1$DUS6:[NOTES$LIBRARY]FELINE.NOTE;1 >>>
                               -< Meower Power >-
================================================================================
Note 2483.166            Ethoxyquin?  dangerous or not?               166 of 185
IAMOK::GERRY "Home is where the Cat is"              21 lines  18-OCT-1989 16:24
                             -< to order PERFORM >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Oh yeah,
    
    If anyone's would like to order PERFORM, you can use my ID # 9463810
    and I'll get referral points...which will give me a % off my next
    order. 
    
    By using my ID number it will entitle you to the FREE bag that Nancy
    was talking about....Nancy, you used my ID when you made your first
    purchase!!  
    
    
    
    PERFORM is only available by mail order at 800-828-3500 ... they will
    ship your first order FREE.  They will also put you on an automatic
    delivery program if you want.  
    
    Everyone that's tried PERFORM has been very happy.  The only problem
    that I've heard about is that once the cats have PERFORM, they don't
    want anything else!!!  
    
    cin...

    
    HI..
    
    Well, when I ran out of Iams two weeks ago I said forget it until
    I find a cat food without ethoxyquin (or at least that doesn't
    list it!)..  I cannot order the Perform yet because I'm not at a
    permanent address...  so..  I haven't had any luck at various
    pet stores but while at Breeders Pride in Marlboro I found this
    dry food called WYSONG.  The ingredients are incredible! but no
    ethoxyquin..  I asked the woman and she said no.. its all natural
    and gave me a pamplet which I promptly lost..  The cats kind of
    like it.. their eating it a little..  (they have canned morning
    and night anyways..)  does anyone know anthing of this?
    
    Some of the ingredients that I can remember are: sesame seeds! natural
    bee honey! dehydrated carrots! garlic powder!..  wierd, eh?
    
    F.

    
    Re: .164 ...how is this pronounced?
    
    I talked to Blue Seal reps a few weeks back, and they didn't know
    *WHAT* I was saying, because I pronounced it wrong!! So, now, I'll
    try to write, phonetically, how they pronounced it:
    
    	eh-THOCKS-eh-quinn
    
    
    -julie

ETHOXYQUIN UPDATE - January, 1990  (copied w/out permission from the
The Schipperke Club BULLETIN article, author: Carol L. Barfield,
659 Grayton Road  Berea, Ohio 44017)

Background: Ethoxyquin, developed by Monsanto Chemical Co., FDA approved for 
use in animal feeds in 1965, is an antioxidant (prevents rancidity in fats 
and oils), with severely restricted human food use (ground chili peppers,
chili powder, paprika). Widely used in dog food only in recent years, its 
safety is being questioned for the dog, as a species. We concerned dog owners
and breeders seek long-term, dog-species-specific toxicity testing on this
synthetic preservative, using current knowledge and modern scientific techno-
logy not available when ethoxyquin was FDA approved.

Monsanto:  Refused further testing as of November, 1989. Claimed a 5-year
toxicity study in dogs using Santoquin* (Monsanto's ethoxyquin compound trade-
mark) which proved safety, but would not release study to anyone. Monsanto's
"A Five Year Chronic Toxicity Study in Dogs With Santoquin*" is available
through FDA, Freedom of Information Staff, HFI-35, 5600 Fishers Lane, 
Rockville, MD  20857.

FDA: Placed ethoxyquin in National Toxicity Program in 1987 or 1988. Decision
to be made whether or not to further test for toxicity in late 1990. Only
recently requested, reviewed Monsanto's 5-year study; found it "deficient".

Data Update:  Ethoxyquin's undisputed efficiency as a preservative has made it
the "preservative of choice" throughout the pet food industry, for cost-saving
and long shelf-life reasons. Researchers now believe it may be TOO efficient,
protecting oil and fat/oil based nutrients from DIGESTION, therefore from
use by the body. In a June, 1989 letter to veterinarians defending ethoxyquin,
Monsanto's Dr. David Calabotta stated ethoxyquin protects "vitamins A and E
and xanthophyll from destructive during feed mixing and storage and even 
through the digestive process."

FDA approved vitamin E for use in 1959, but it was 1968 before an estimated
daily dietary level was established, and its importance or need was debated 
well into the '70's.  Today, we know vitamin E is vital and plays many major
roles, including enhancing absorption of many other nutrients by the body.
Therefore, only now can the danger of any synthetic chemical's interference
with vitamin E's functions be recognized. Using this current knowledge,
and modern scientific technology not available when ethoxyquin was FDA
approved, we desperately need chronic (long-term), dog-species-specific
toxicity studies on ethoxyquin. The dog species has been proven to be the 
most sensitive species to ethoxyquin-caused toxicity symptoms.

Bil-Jac recently removed ethoxyquin from all its products. Iams is conducting
its own internal studies on Ethoxyquin. Natural Life Pet Products is offering
a financial grant to help fund further ethoxyquin testing. YOU, the buying
public, brought about progress through "public outrage", questions, complaints,
and product boycott of dog foods containing ethoxyquin. THANK YOU, and please,
KEEP IT UP!  We're nowhere near the end of this quest yet!

     
    I friend of mine asked me this weekend about ethoxyquin.  I relayed
    information that I had read in this file, sighting different entries
    that questioned the effects of the chemical and of it's damaging effects
    on our felines.  The subject came up because she and 2 other breeders have
    recently experienced lesions in the mouths of otherwise healthy cats 
    (various breeds).  The only thing in common in all 3 cases was the diet, 
    which was Iams.  She asked me if I would enter a note to see if anyone else
    has experienced this.  Previous entries noted problems of the liver, etc.,
    but no other entry that I could find (except a reprint from CANINE) noted 
    lesions in the mouth. All three lesions are in the process of being
    biopsied.
    
    
                          
    

no problems in any of our 5 - they eat Iams (regular) and some NUTRO MAX for
cats as variety.  Cats ages range from 5 months to 17 years.    

    Marlene,
    
    You know this, but I'll put it here anyway.  Last fall Stripees
    had surgery to remove a tumor in his mouth.  It was biopsied as
    Ulcerated Gingervitis, and according to my vet shouldn't re-occur.
    He didn't really have a reason for it happening in the first place
    though.  
    
    At the time, Stripees was eatting Kit 'n Kaboodles dry food which
    does contain Ethoxyquin.
    
    I know, I know, I've been one of the more vocal people here about
    not feeding foods with ethoxyquin, but at the time trying to keep
    any weight on Stripees was better than nothing, and it was the only
    thing I could get him to eat.  
    
    It never occured to me to consider that the tumor could be connected
    with his diet.  Although I was quite confused by the diagnosis of
    gingervitis, since Stripees has always eatten more dry food than
    canned.  
    
    cin