Conference misery::feline_v1

    How about kidnapping Momma Kitty for a trip to the spay and neuter
    clinic?
    

    We have been thinking about it, I even went through the excersise
    of calling around for some prices and got some low cost spay
    certificates from Nancy.  This man would really be angry if he ever
    found out I did it because he loves to have the kittens around (barf,
    gag).
    
    She probably has never had shots or been vet checked, so I wouldn't
    want to have her recover in a cat household, plus in order to bring
    her to the vets, she'll need all her shots (mega $$)
    
    And if I did go through all this trouble, he'd probably find another.
    
    She'd got to be around 5 -7 years old and she doesn't do as much
    with her babies as she used to, I think she's tired.
    
    It is a very sad situation, but I feel no matter what I do, I can't
    do enough....so I will keep trying to place the kittens before the
    males and females start breeding between themselves.
    
    Michele & Nippa
    

    Michele,
    
    Have you tried giving some literature on the problem of pet
    overpopulation to him?  I think it could be done in a tactful
    way and is very compelling. As a matter of fact, I have something
    here at my desk right now that I got recently from the HSUS.
    It contains a very disturbing picture of euthanized dogs on a
    wheel cart (with little bitty puppies on top )-: ) waiting to
    be cremated.  There is another picture of a shelter worker
    crying as she carries a dog to be euthanized.  
    
    This is the stark naked truth of what it means when people do
    not neuter their animals.  I say fight fire with fire.  Plant
    a seed of discontent in his mind with pictures and literature.
    Stop bailing him out by finding homes for the kittens.   Make him
    feel bad, *real* bad.
    
    Donna, (feeling mean, *real* mean towards irresponsible pet owners)
    
    

    Donna-
    
    I have tried that (Nancy gave me some phamplets too), but I don't
    think this person is playing with a full deck.  He just likes to
    see all the babies...and as long as he's alive I don't think he'll
    change.  I don't stop from trying though, but I hate p*ssing people 
    off, espicially ones I have to deal with buisness wise occasionally.
    
    If you could send me copies of  those pictures or articles , I'll leave
    them with him (more food for thought - like you said he might come
    around...) 
                                                             
    Michele
    
    NRO5/F2    

    
    	Re:  Base note
    
    	Boy do I sympathize with your situation, but also want to praise
    	you for doing all you can for the kittens.  The problem though
    	is the Momma cat.  All these litters are if not already going
    	to effect her health.  It takes so much out of them if they
    	have  one little right after the other.  Should I even suggest
    	getting the mother cat away from him and giving it to a responsible
    	owner and then giving him a kitten that has been neutered? 
    	Gosh what a rough situation.
    
    	Good luck and Bless you for all your kindness to these animals!
    
    	-Dee
    

    How about keeping one of the kittens, telling him it is a female
    when it is really a male and getting the mother from him, get her
    fixed and find her a new home.  When he gets wise that it is really\
    a male granted he won't be too happy with you but at least momma
    cat can be spared from future litters.  People like him really
    irritate me and they don't have any business even having cats let
    alone breeding them.  
    
    Nancy

    
    	re .5
    
    	Michele and I discussed this possibility the other day, since
    	we both know the person owning Mommakitty. The only way we could
    	get her out of there and spayed is if we had a definite home
    	lined up for her ahead of time. Her `owner' will be PISSED if
    	he knew what was going on and who was responsible. Unforunately,
    	Michele, at least, will have to deal with him in the future,
    	so a lot of care needs to be taken in how this is handled. We
    	would have to find homes for the kittens first, then snatch
    	the momma, and let the owner think she just took off. (that
    	way he will at least wait for her to come back before trying
    	to get a new cat). 
    
    	Mommakitty is a very pretty kitty, and she will blossom if
    	she is taken care of. The many litters she has had have taken
    	thier toll on her, but she's never been taken care of, so
    	I'm sure she would improve when given a warm, loving home...
    
    	Anybody have any other good ideas?? (or homes...??)
    
    	Sherry
    

    Sherry, it's a long shot but I think I know someone who will let
    momma recup at her house (but probably won't be able to keep her
    permanently).  She has other cats, though, so we must be absolutely
    sure that she is vaccinated and felv negative upon her arrival.
    
    Let me make a few phone calls and report back.
    
    Hoping to pull this off!
    
    
    /Roberta
    

	THanks for the plug, Sherry!

	I do want to do something about this situation, because it
	is getting out of hand!  Like Sherry said, I'd need to find a home 
	for her first, I have to deal with this guy once in a while for
	buisness, so I have no chioce but to be very carful.  

	I will be with him for a good part of the day Saturday, so I am going to
	try to talk him into getting her spayed again.  I am going to 
	offer to pay because I think spending a few $$$ on a cat is part of
	the problem.  Has anyone used the low cost spay certificates and
	had good results?

	FYI - (In case I can't convince him to get her spayed)

	Momma Kitty is a grey, medium haired, double pawed cat.
	She is very friendly and seems to get along with other cats
	too(this would not exclude her from a multi cat household).
	She is probably about 5 years old.

	If anyone knows of someone who would be interested in Momma
	please drop me a line either here or thru mail.

	Thanks!

	Michele
	
                                   
    p.s.  Roberta, sounds like a good idea.....
    

    I just got a call from a friend of a noter.  She will be taking
    one of the kittens next week.  There are 2 still available and the
    momma of course.
    m&n

    Michele - Northboro Animal Hospital honors the low-cost (Friends
    of Animals) certificates and they will do a fine job!  Not to worry.
    
    If we can try to find a foster home for moma to recuperate in, is
    there any way you can 'catnap' her, bring her in for the spay, to
    the recuperation place, and then back home until a better
    one can be located?  I am really worried about her getting pregnant
    again while a permanent home is being found.  I will chip in for
    the cost of the spay which is around $35 through Friends of Animals.
                                     
    You can always tell your 'friend' that moma is out on the town and
    will probably be home "any day now."
    
    I'm still trying to help find a place for her to recup.
    
    
    /Roberta
    

    Roberta-
    
    Sounds like a plan to me!  I am going to try to talk him into letting
    me just get her fixed.  If he still refuses...she just might disapear
    .....but if that were the case, she could never go back (Which is
    why I need to find a permant home for her).  This person is not
    all there and has been known to do dumb things.  So I'd rather
    have his approval to do it.
    
    	I'll let you know what he says on Monday....
    
    Thanks for the help and support!  I knew I'd find it here!
    
    Michele	
    

    Michele, I hope you are able to convince him.  Would it help if
    you tell him that the spay $$'s will not be coming out of his pocket?
    It irritates me to no end that I have to compensate for someone
    else's ignorance, but this one's for moma cat.
    
    Most of us who read Feline on a regular basis are already inundated
    with cats, so I can certainly understand why it's going to be hard
    to place her.  Jog my memory... why can't she go back?  Does your
    friend feed her??  Pay attention to her???  Do the kittens stay
    outside too or does he bring them in?  I'm a little confused as
    to whether or not we are dealing with a clear cut case of ignorance
    (in regards to not spaying her) or downright neglect.
    
    
    /Roberta
    

    Maybe Michelle means that if she spays momma cat against her owner's
    wishes, he might take his anger out on momma cat.  Or that if she
    was spayed, she would have no value to him.  Sounds like he only
    thinks of her as a baby making machine right now.
    
    Jo

    
    	Jo, you're pretty close on all counts. This guy is NOT
    	playing with a full deck, and has been known to throw
    	*violent* temper tantrums when he's pissed off. There
    	is no way momma kitty could be returned down there once
    	she has been taken against her `owner's' knowledge. The
    	worst part is, he is a businessman from whom Michele needs
    	services from time to time, and she doesn't want to lose
    	that part of their relationship. He really does not under-
    	stand what these multiple breedings are doing to the cat,
    	he just likes to see the little kittens running around. I
    	think she has already tried her best to talk him into it,
    	and we're probably going to have to use the `kidnap' route.
                                               
    	Sherry
    

    RE: last few
    
    I am not worried about his anger on momma kitty....she's proven
    she can take care of herself.  There are times when I need this
    guys services, and If I continue to live in this area, will need
    them for a long time.....so I don't want to burn any bridges.
    
    If he lets me take her, she can go back.......If we take her against
    his will, I won't want to bring her back because he'll know I did
    it and he'll be so mad @ me, It wouldn't be funny.
    
    He provides the basics, food, water and shelter.  She has tons of
    room to roam, so she's happy there......
    
    m&n
    

    
    Michele,
    
    	Just a quick thought on returning momma kitty....If you catnap
    her to have her fixed, have her recuperate somewhere else, is there
    a way she could just sorta....return on her own?
    
    	From what I've read, this guy wouldn't notice she had been fixed.
    If she stopped having kittens, well she just reached the age where
    she quit.  Unless he took her to a vet (sounds unlikely from what
    I've read), he wouldn't know she had be spayed.
    
    	Cats do wander at times.  I know it is mostly males who do,
    but we had a female that did it a couple of times.  Was gone for
    a week or so each time.
    
    Faith
    
    (P.S. Good luck....I hope you find a solution for momma's sake.)
    

    I remember when Portia was spayed - it took a couple months for
    the hair on her belly to growm back to the point where it wasn't
    noticable.
    
    So, though .17 has a good idea, MommaKitty may have to be away for
    a long time.

    What does the turkey do in the way of business that can't be
    substituted for?
    

    I'd rather not get into that discussion.  He is a very nice person,
    but there are times where he is living in the stone ages.
    
    I'd keep her away till her hair grew back, but I thought that would
    take a long (months) time...

    	Well much to our suprise, there were 4 kittens, and not three.
    each pair looks exactly alike!  One friend has taken a black one,
    and a friend of a noter was going to take one, but that won't be
    happening.  So there are still 3 babies for adoption.
    
    As faer as talking to the owner, I have not had the best time to
    do it, so I am still waiting.......He says she is expecting again
    (sigh ;^(  ohh well )

    From my calculations, this litter is only about 6 weeks old and
    now Momma Kitty is pregant again??!!!!
    
    This guy is going to kill Momma Kitty if she doesn't get spayed
    and stop having litter after litter.  Her body won't take this kind
    of abuse for long.
    
    And what a jerk to have you scrambling around trying to help place
    his kittens and he goes on his merry way, creating more of them
    that will have to be placed.  
    
    My anger is not directed at you in any way, but now, after reading
    this, I am really mad at this jerk.  Isn't there anything that we
    can do?  I am out here in California and feel so helpless about
    this.
    
    Jo

    
    
    	I agree with Jo....  I mean I know you have told us this
    	guy is off his rocker but this is really pushing it....!!
    	
    	I think he should put himself in Momma Kitty's place....
    	he has no respect for his animals....  I would seriously
    	consider just taking Momma Kitty and putting her somewhere
    	where she will be safe a well taken care of and just tell
    	this idiot that "she left to have her babies alone and 
    	didn't return" or something.  Too bad you have to deal
    	with him on a business standpoint.  Otherwise, I'm sure
    	you'd have a few choice words for this monster.
    
    	

    How do you think I feel; I live in the same town?!
    
    I am absolutely sick over this and rightfully so.  I wrote Michele
    off-line and have not received a response thus far.  It doesn't
    sound as if she wants to do anything until someone comes through
    with a home.  That's a real shame.  I'm hoping if no good becomes
    of this, updates to this note will cease because quite frankly,
    it is much too upsetting for me to handle.
    
    
    /Roberta
    

    
    Roberta-
    
    Sorry I have not replied- but I have been swamped!
    I am real sorry your upset, this was not my attention of this note.
    I only wanted to help the kitties.               
    
    I really want to do something, however at the moment my hands are
    tied (Mom really won't allow another cat in the house...no exceptions).
    
    I feel as frustrated as you do (sherry and I were there this afternoon
    and bit our tongues as he said those words) and I really want to
    do something......
    
    Is there someone in this area that could foster her till she became
    healthy or found a permant home?   I am still going to try to get
    her spayed with his permission, but it's just not that easy......
    But I won't give up......
    m&n                  
    
    

    Keep at it Michelle, you will get through to him eventually.  He
    has to figure out that he is putting her health at risk.  I know
    that this is hard on you.  
    
    Jo

    This is my only reply to this note.
    
    There is no business relationship (and precious few of any other
    type) valuable enough to warrant not calling this kind of individual
    to task.  It sounds as if there might be room for the authorities
    to become involved as well.  In the worst case (that he takes it
    out on mom-cat), I guess my position would be that as tragic as
    that would be, it would only be one cat, not the hordes he is allowing
    to propagate, that would end up suffering through his callousness
    and/or stupidity. 
    
    I don't enjoy reading notes like these either.  People like this
    have to be dealt with, reasonably if possible, and if not, ...

    Gary

    Michele, I'm not angry at you, just at the whole situation in general.
    I could probably even find someone to take her to recuperate but
    she could only stay on a temporary basis.  I know you are doing
    the best you can and it's wonderful that you assist in finding loving
    homes for the babies.  My feeling is if you take moma away permanently,
    this man will get another female cat and square one will begin all
    over again.  I do agree with Gary and feel the authorities should
    become involved, but that's a whole other issue.
    
    From what I've read, it sounds as though spaying is the only real
    issue here.  Other than that, moma is happy in her environment and
    her needs are being tended to.  Maybe not in the way we in this
    notesfile tend to our cats, but at least she's fed and has a home.
    Worst case, I would help defray her recup time at the vets and she
    can be returned back to where she feels most comfortable.
    
    Since we live in the same time, feel free to call on me anytime.
    
    
    
    /Roberta
    

    Also, I know the recup time could be awhile due to the hair growing
    back.  Sometimes when a situation like this is explained to a vet,
    they can make exceptions and compromsies cost-wise.  My mom used
    to "steal" the neighbor's females all the time and have them spayed,
    then return them, and her vet always worked right along with her.
    
    Again Michele, I would be happy to contact vets and discuss the
    situation with them.
    

    
    	I wonder if the vet could be convinced to just shave a 
    	tiny little spot in order to do the spay...when Willow 
    	was spayed recently, they only put in two external stitches,
    	and the incision was only about a half an inch long (right,
    	Nancy?). That way maybe she could be returned sooner and 
    	he might not notice it.
    
    	We were down there yesterday, and we couldn't find the kittens.
    	He said to us, Don't worry, if your friend still wants one,
    	she'll be having more soon, I know she will cause that's what
    	she does. Well, NO SH*T that's what she does!!! I was ready
    	to jump down his throat for that one.....
    

    Sherry, I just got off the phone with the Northboro Animal Hospital.
    The woman I spoke to understands our position (I told her it was
    "my" neighbor and me who wants to bring the cat in) and said it
    would be easier if we had the owners permission to do the spay.
    However, she said the only way he is going to know the spay was
    performed is if he turns her upside down and sees the shaved fur.
    How much physical contact does he give her, if any?  Do you think
    he will even notice the shaved area?  If he does, you could always
    say her fur is falling out from a flea allergy or some such thing.
    
    She did stress that the MSPCA should be notified but I informed
    her that this guy is not playing with a full deck and would probably
    seek revenge from those who turned him in.
    
    This is just awful!  Kind of like watching a person being raped
    and doing nothing for fear of becoming involved.
    
    What is the minimum recoup time from spay surgery, not including
    hair regrowth?  A week?  Is moma long or short-haired?
    
    
    /Roberta
    
    

    Don't forget guys that if the cat is pregnant the spay is more
    involved and the incision will probably be larger.  It sounds
    like she gets pregnant with a new litter just about the time
    the old one is on its own.
      Nancy DC
    

	RE: .27
	
	I am glad that was your only reply.  Not only did I find it insulting,
	but you don't know ALL the facts, so I would appreciate it if you 
	kept those comments to yourself.

	I am trying to do what I can for an animal, particularly one I 
	care about, and I don't need to be told that I am not doing 
	enough or I should be doing it another way.  

	I am sure we all know someone who could use a boot in the butt
	when they have some backwards idea.....but there is something
	called tact and diplomacy, which if used properly, can get you 
	what ever you want.


    	m&n

	RE: .26 (and any other breeders)

	Thanks for the encouragement Jo!  You did give me an idea.....
	He has to realize he is putting her in danger ect.  Do any breeders
	have any info on the health aspects of spaying or 'excessive breeding'.
	One good quality of this guy is that he loves to read and learn new
	things.  Maybe I can get the message across to him that way.

	I did get  Donna's phamplet (Thanks Donna!!!) however I think he needs 
	to see the reproductive facts.....if you know what I mean.


	
	re: .28

	Roberta

	you are correct in assuming she is happy there... after all, she's 
	stayed there for many years....

	I appreciate your calling Northboro Animal Hospital.  They are the ones
	who accept the low cost spay, arn't they?  If so, it sounds like it
	will be the place to go.  If she's el preggo again, will they honor
    	the low cost spay?  Will she need shots befor the spay?
	How long will she have to stay?  If we can get his blessings, I know
	he'll keep her in while she recuperates.


	I still have not had the opportunity to talk with this guy,  but
	I am not giving up.  And as I said before, it might be that I have to
	present the information in a more effective manner.  As a matter
    	of fact, Sherry and I will be going by his house tonight and will 
    	stop in for a visit if he's there.....
                
    
    	Thanks to all who have replied!  It's nice to know people care
    	and that there is a support system available :^)
    
    	m&n                                          
    

    When my neighbor's cat was spayed, the stitches and shaved area
    were very obvious.  And he doesn't have to turn her over to
    notice them, what happens if she just rolls over?
    

    
    	Roberta,
    
    	Unfortunately, she is longhaired, so any shaving would be
    	noticable.  We're going to try to talk to the guy tonight,
    	so we'll see what happens...I know when Willow was spayed, 
    	they shaved about SIX inches all the way around the incision,
        must've had a new tech working that day....
    
    	Sherry
    

    Question for the breeders - how soon does a cat go into heat after
    tehy have had a litter.  If these kittens are only about 5 weeks
    old, could momma have gone into heat and gotten pregnant again?
    I'm just trying to determine if it is possible for momma to be pregnant
    again.  If momma isn't pregnant yet, then Michelle has a little
    more time to work with.
    
    	-Nancy

    I've had cats go into heat as little as a few days after delivering
    kittens.
    
    Ya gotta be real careful!
    
    cin

    A cat can go into heat almost immediately after having kittens.
    Depends on her environment, and her health.  The soonest one of
    my girls have gone back in to season was two and a half weeks after
    birth.  But, her litter was born in April, which is the height of
    kitten season, and she was in the same room as a whole male.  These
    things stimulated her into season.  Heat cycles can vary with the
    amount of light the cat is exposed to every day.  At this time of
    year, with the days getting longer, heats come faster and more
    frequently than in the fall and winter.
    
    Six week old kittens are really not ready to be on their own.  I
    have never had a litter that was weaned sooner than 12 weeks.  Most
    of the queens still nurse their litterd until they are 14 or 15 weeks.
    
    Plus, if momma is nursing one litter, and has another litter in utero,
    that is too much stress on her body.  Both pregnancy and nursing
    are very stressful to the cat's system, but the two together can
    really deplete her resources.  This may lead to problems with this
    next litter.  She can show symptoms of anemia, vitamin deficiency,
    and anorexia.  She is probably very thin right now anyway, from the
    nursing.  
          
    I try to let my queens have at least six months off between litters,
    unless there is a health reason for them being bred sooner.  If
    they have a big litter, then they get more time off.  If they nursed
    their kittens for several months, then they get more time off.
    
    Hope some of this information will help.  Maybe you could convince
    him that not even a breeder would do what he is doing.  And also,
    tell him that by letting her have litters one right after (or during
    for that matter) the other, he is putting her health, and her kittens
    health in danger.
    
    Jo

    You could ask the vet for a "show shave"  a very small area!
    I've had kids done that way - they have to be very ready
    to enlarge it in case they run into problems though.  It
    would be hardly noticable.
    
    E.T.