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Conference misery::feline_v1

Title:Meower Power is Valuing Differences
Notice:FELINE_V1 is moving 1/11/94 5pm PST to MISERY
Moderator:MISERY::VANZUYLEN_RO
Created:Sun Feb 09 1986
Last Modified:Tue Jan 11 1994
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:5089
Total number of notes:60366

2391.0. "CIVIL LITIGATION SURROUNDING MY CAT" by YOSMTE::CORDESBRO_JO () Thu Apr 20 1989 17:01

    I am involved in a very upseting situation regarding a cat that
    I co-own with another breeder.  I need to bounce this situation
    off of the rest of you guys and maybe you can help my figure out
    what to do.
    
    The other owner is Sheri, a good friend, and my mentor in breeding.
    She was transfered to Hawaii.  She gave Magda to me, and we signed
    over co-ownership papers.  In December, we agreed that Magda would
    be an important part of Sheri's breeding program and that Sheri
    should take her to Hawaii.  But, there is the problem of the four
    month quarantine.  
    
    Sheri came out here on her way to Hawaii, and we evaluated Magda
    together.  We still agreed that she is a very fine example of the
    breed and should be used in a breeding program.  But, we were concerned
    about her going through the quarantine.  
    
    Through a series of events, Magda came to be living with Sheri's
    boyfriend instead of me.  Brad, a friend of mine too, had a friend
    over who fell madly in love with Magda and wanted to take her home.
    Sheri and I discussed it, and decided that given the circumstances,
    this woman  could give Magda a very loving home.  Magda is in constant
    need of attention, and this woman has three children at home who
    would dote on Magda, and Magda would thrive.  Since Sheri is the
    primary owner of Magda, that decision was up to her to make.  I
    still wanted Magda, but had to do what Sheri thought was best.
    
    Well, the wonderful home lasted three weeks.  The new owner discovered
    that her small son was extremely allergic to Magda and asked to
    bring her back.  I agreed.  Magda was brought back to Brad's house
    since he lived closer to the woman, and it was necessary to get
    Magda away fromt the child as soon as possible.  She returned Magda
    to Brad on the 12th of April.
    
    That same night, another woman had come to Brad's to see a litter
    of kittens.  Her name is Pam.  She feel in love with Magda and said
    she wanted to buy her.  Brad told her that he wasn't sure what was
    going on with Magda and what Sheri wanted to do.  Brad was not aware
    (I thought he was but he says he wasn't) that I was co-owner.  He
    told Pam that she could take Magda home over the weekend to see
    if they got along okay and then bring her back on Monday and he
    would contact Sheri and see what she wanted to do.
    
    Well, Pam didn't bring Magda back on Monday.  She doesn't plan on
    ever bringing Magda back.  She took Magda to a vet and the vet said
    that Magda had gingivitis and would need to have her teeth cleaned
    now, and then probably every couple of months for the rest of her
    life.  Pam feels that since she has Magda she can keep her, and
    that since the vet told her that Magda has an "illness" that will
    have to be treated for the "rest of her life" that she should not
    have to pay for her.
    
    The point is, Magda is NOT FOR SALE!  Sheri and I had agreed that
    Magda would come back to me.  I hold the registration papers on
    her, she has lived with me.  Her sire and grandsire have been neutered
    so there will never be another Magda.  I did not want to let her
    go to the first buyers house, but that was Sheri's decision.
    
    Brad did not tell me about this situation Tuesday the 18th.  I 
    called to find out when I could come and get Magda from him and
    that is when I found out.
    
    I called Pam and told her that she may not be aware of it, but that
    I was Magda's co-owner and that Sheri and I, as the owners, wanted
    her back.  She flat out refused to give her back.
    
    She has had our cat for over a week now.  Last night, my husband
    and I called the police in to do a civil standby.  We knocked on
    her door, with the police, in an effort to recover Magda.  Pam wasn't
    home.  We waited for her for 4 hours.  She did not come home.  I
    had to sit and watch *my* cat meowing in *her* window for four hours!
    It was heartbreaking.
    
    I have an appointment with an Attorney today at 10:30.  I am going
    to find  out if we can order Pam to turn Magda over to a vet pending
    the case coming before a judge.  I am scared to death that Pam will
    make Magda "disappear" and we will never see her again.
    
    Sheri and I are in complete agreement on this.  Sheri is taking
    a flight out here tomorrow so that we can settle this.  I am at
    my wit's end.  I have not been able to sleep since I found out,
    and I can't eat either.  Not to mention being totally furious at
    Brad for letting this happen.
    
    I need moral support, ideas, advice, etc.  The state of California
    also does not recognize cats as property, but the Attorney thinks
    that since she is purebred, and valued in a breeding program, that
    we may have a chance.
    
    Jo
                             
    
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2391.1MILPND::FRANCINEhave you ever been experiencedThu Apr 20 1989 17:3017
    
    
    How awful!!
    
    I can understand you must be heartbroken..
    
    Try showing up at her door again with the police.  That may scare
    this woman enough into giving your cat back right away and will
    end this whole messy situation!!!
    
    I would think you have a good chance in court, if it comes to that..
    where the actual *owners* of the cat did not give permission for
    her to take the cat...
    
    I hope things work out for the best!!
    
    F.
2391.2woman's not playing with a full deckCGVAX2::WEISMAN_EThu Apr 20 1989 17:497
    
    
    I can't believe someone would actually STEAL a cat.
    
    
                     donna
    
2391.3BOSHOG::LEWISThu Apr 20 1989 18:0718
         I agree with .1......go back with the police again.  You might
    want to wait and watch, or have someone else help and then notify
    you, to make sure she's home and then quickly call the police to
    come over.  I wouldn't keep asking them to go along unless you know
    she's there.  Seeing you at the door with an officer should let
    her know just how serious you are and he might just be able to convince
    her to save herself a lot of trouble.
         I'd also force your (ex)friend to go along too....after all,
    he let her go.
         
    
         Or....you could always check to see if she lets her out at
    all (probably not) and just take her back....can't steal what already
    belongs to you, right??
         Good luck!
    
    
    Bob
2391.4I'm so sorry this is happening!!SKITZD::WILDEAsk yourself..am I a happy cow?Thu Apr 20 1989 18:3726
The cat has a recognizable value (after all, purebreds are sold for money),
and you do not intend to sell, and never did.  I would definitely get the
attorney involved and I would get Brad to tell you where she works so
she can be contacted there if need be to inform her you plan to pursue
this legally.  When forced to pay for an attorney, she may become more
responsive.  Meanwhile, I would have your co-breeder have a long talk
with her boyfriend about this ....why was the cat handed over
with no written agreement or payment of any kind in the first place?
You can agree to hold the check while a person evaluates the cat, but
you should not release the cat or kitten without the check or a written
agreement for trial ownership signed and witnessed..in this way, you 
have legal evidence both of the transaction AND the temporary nature
of the transaction - as well as evidence of the fact that the cat is 
to be paid for.  If you have no other option, try small claims court
to get a judgement that she must return the cat.

Good luck on getting your cat back....you may be in trouble if you
don't move fast - she may decide to spay the cat to destroy her
dollar value under any law....Yeesh!  what fruitcakes there are out
there!

For the future, I would have a lawyer draft a trial-ownership agreement
that clearly states how either you or the prospective owner can terminate
the agreement and return the cat/kitten to you within a specified period
of time....cover such things as vet bills due to neglect on the part of
the new owner if the kitten is returned, etc. 
2391.5MILPND::FRANCINEhave you ever been experiencedThu Apr 20 1989 19:0211
    
    
    If you do decide to go with the police again.  Do bring your friend
    and have him tell the lady... "its not *my* cat, its hers.."
    
    Then she'll realize a little more possible in person, face to face
    with the men in blue and everything..
    
    Good luck!
    
    F.
2391.6Thanks for your supportYOSMTE::CORDESBRO_JOThu Apr 20 1989 19:4920
    Thanks for your suggestions.  I consulted an attorney and he says
    she is guitly of conversion.  This means that she obtained my property
    lawfully (Brad willingly gave her the cat) but she is retaining
    it unlawfully (against my wishes).  He says we have a very strong
    case and that he can get us an exparte order which will order her
    to give the cat back pending the case coming to trial. 
    
    Problem is... his fee is $175.00 and hour and he wants a retainer
    of a minimum of 10 hours work ($1,750!!!!).  He says that we may
    be able to recover some of the court costs if we win the case, but
    that is up to the judge.  There is a chance that we will not recover
    it.  He also said that the suit would cover the value of Magda in
    case something happens to her (please God, no) and punitive damages
    for what this is doing to Sheri and I.
    
    I don't know what we will do yet.  I am waiting to hear from Sheri.
    There is a 3 hour time difference between here and Hawaii and Sheri
    is in a meeting til 4:30 my time.
    
    Jo
2391.7CIRCUS::KOLLINGKaren, Sweetie, & Holly; in Calif.Thu Apr 20 1989 20:1512
    Jo, call my attorney Douglass Adams in Saratoga.  The lawyer who
    told you $1750 is taking you for a ride.  I suspect from what Mr.
    Adams suggested when I had a real problem with one of my neighbors
    that the first thing he will suggest is that he write a letter to
    the woman.  It's amazing what a letter from a lawyer on legal
    stationary will do.  Possibly this can be delivered in some very
    speedy fashion.  Then you may have
    to take further steps, but only if the letter doesn't work.  Ask his
    advice about what the letter should say about how the cat is
    returned to you (what method).  Let us know what's going on
    (I'd be tempted to break a window, myself.)
    
2391.8shoot the boyfriend? >;>JULIET::APODACA_KII'm here without a name...Thu Apr 20 1989 21:036
    Do keep us posted, Jo....I'd also be inclined to break a window.
     The cat is worth far more than one lousy window (altho I suggest
    you don't do it--my theories on fair justice isn't always kosher
    with state law)   :)
    
                                                             ---kim
2391.9It is important to keep a sense of humor, I guessYOSMTE::CORDESBRO_JOThu Apr 20 1989 21:1716
    I can't shoot the boyfriend although I am very angry with him.
    
    He is a very nice, normal person.  He is just new to cat breeding
    and very naive.  
    
    I let him take Lady (Mysinhs Lady Sings the Blues) and Latisse (Mysinhs
    Latisse of Birgatos) so if I shot him, who would take care of them?
    
    I guess I could take them back.... Latisse did beat the kitten I
    bought at the show last weekend, hmmmmmm....she did make an allbreed
    final, and she is a very sweet baby.  Lady is a great little one
    too.....hmmm...... things could be looking up already....
    
    ;^)
    
    Jo
2391.10moreYOSMTE::CORDESBRO_JOThu Apr 20 1989 21:3724
    Karen, I called Douglas Adams office and he is out of the office
    for the rest of the day.  So is his partner.  The receptionist was
    very nice and sympathetic when I told her the whole gruesome tale,
    and promised to have Mr. Adams call first thing in morning.  Thanks
    for the referral.  The receptionist seemed to remember you.
    
    As of last night, Sheri was scheduled on a flight out here from
    Hawaii first thing in the morning.  I would like to resolve this
    immediately.  
    
    I sat at Pam's house til about 9:30 last night and watched my poor
    kitty meow at me through the window.  She had to sit in a completely
    dark house from 7:30 on.  How well can she be treating my cat if
    she is not giving her the kind of attention that she needs.  This
    is not a cat that can do well all by herself.  She has to have
    companionship, whether it be feline or human.
    
    I can't imagine this going on for much longer.  This woman actually
    thinks that she can take me to court and sue me for *my* cat.  I
    can't understand why I have to spend $1750 to recover my cat that
    she is holding illegaly.  There must be something wrong with this
    system.
    
    Jo
2391.11reverse approachVAXWRK::SKALTSISDebThu Apr 20 1989 22:5711
    Jo,

    Maybe going to her home in the evening isn't the way to do it. She
    might be expecting you and stay out late on purpose. Under those
    circumstances, I think that I might provide her with a "wake-up visit"
    (Police in tow, of course) at say, 6 AM, or at least before she leaves
    for work.


    Deb

2391.12CIRCUS::KOLLINGKaren, Sweetie, & Holly; in Calif.Thu Apr 20 1989 23:017
    Re: .11
    
    I think that's how the police work in drug busts -- 4 am and
    similar hours.  I'd be inclined to talk to Mr. Adams first at
    least on the phone to get his advice, unless you're sure the
    police will obtain the cat for you when you catch the woman at home.
    
2391.13if all else fails, laff, and *then* kill 'im... ;)JULIET::APODACA_KII'm here without a name...Thu Apr 20 1989 23:1414
    The early morning approach might be best....we're not worried about
    inconveniencing Ms. Pam, and getting up and about that early is
    probably your best chance to tag her at home, and certainly worth
    it if you get the cat back.  You probably should talk to the lawyer
    first to make SURE you can get the cat back (god knows...she could
    probably try and sue YOU for harrassment or something), so it won't
    be another wasted, frustrating trip.
    
    If you do go to court, that woman should have to pay for court costs,
    including lawyer's fees and the lost work/plane fare of your fellow
    owner.  If you can't shoot the boyfriend, then reprimand him strongly,
    or send Vinney out to beat him up (kidding gang).
                  
                                                               ---kim
2391.14Keepin' our chins up...YOSMTE::CORDESBRO_JOThu Apr 20 1989 23:4150
    You guys are great!  I especially liked the idea of sending Vinney
    out to reprimand Brad!!
    
    The police cannot and will not make Pam give up the cat to my custody.
    According to their interpretation of the law, Ms. Pammy (as we so
    unaffectionately call her) has not broken any laws.  The reason
    for having them on hand is to A) intimidate her B) to keep the peace
    and be sure that I have a witness that I am not harrassing her.
    
    We were bucking on the notion that the cop would scare her into
    giving me the cat.  Actually, she thinks she is sitting pretty,
    she doesn't know that I have her address.  Brad neglected to get
    it from her before she left with Magda, and then she refused to
    tell it to me.
    
    Amazingly enough, she had contacted me a few months ago about getting
    a kitten.  At that time, I took her name, address, and phone number
    and put her on a waiting list.  After spending some time interviewing
    her, I decided to refer her to another breeder.  She had forgotten
    about that.  Since she wasn't home, she doesn't know we were there.
    I certainly didn't tell her.
    
    The attorney  said that whether or not she pays my court costs is
    up to the judge.  The amount that she may/may not pay is also up
    to the judge.  He says that very rarely does a judge rule that *all*
    court costs are to be paid by the other party.
    
    I am trying to decide whether or not to risk going to her house
    with the cops again, if I do go and it doesn't work, she then knows
    that I know where she lives.
    
    Sheri called and she is booked on a military flight out in the morning.
    She had to pull rank to get on it (she is a Lt. Commander), and
    so has jeopardized her chances of ever being able to take another
    military flight in the future.  She does not have a flight back
    yet.  She will have to pay commercial rates and a one way ticket
    to Hawaii is probably not cheap.
    
    I gave her the attorney's number and told her to call him before
    getting on the flight.  It may not be necessary for her to come
    out right now, and we may need her to come out later on.  She has
    an appointment with a Navy Attorney at 2:00 pm her time (5:00pm
    here).  We are going to try to see if they can help.  The legal
    representation may be part of her Navy benefits, but we don't know
    if she has to come out to Alameda to use a Navy Attorney or if she
    can use one in Hawaii.  Seems that I have heard that you have to
    be a member of the California bar association in order to file a
    suit in Calif.
    
    Jo
2391.15AM I MISSING SOMETHING???BUSY::CIOFFIFri Apr 21 1989 15:3615
    Hmmmmmmmm....I've read thru and see that Ms. Pam is NOT breaking
    the law.  Brad gave the cat to her for the weekend, but she was
    to return her on Monday.  She has not kept up the agreement..........
    so, why is she not breaking the law?
    
    I think this is a terrible situation!!!!!!!!!  People continue to
    prove how AMAZING they can be.  What satisfaction can she be getting
    out of a cat that has so much controversy around her???  I question
    her mental stability!!!!!!
    
    BEST OF LUCK,
    and please let us know what happens,
    
    Karen (and Jasper)
    
2391.16I don't think you are missing anything...YOSMTE::CORDESBRO_JOFri Apr 21 1989 17:3216
    She is guilty of conversion.  But, the police cannot arrest her
    for conversion.  So, we have to take her to court to get Magda back.
    
    Today's update... Sheri has packed her bags, taken leave from the
    Navy, and is sitting in the airport in Hawaii waiting for a standby
    flight to San Jose.
    
    I am waiting to hear back from Karen Kollings attorney to find out
    what options he may think of.
    
    I, too, question this woman's mental stability.  I also question
    where she is getting her legal advise.  What attorney, in his right
    mind, would encourage her to keep the cat considering the
    circumstances?!
    
    Jo
2391.17CIRCUS::KOLLINGKaren, Sweetie, & Holly; in Calif.Fri Apr 21 1989 18:518
    I can't tell when you posted your note Jo (times on the notes
    always seem to be obviously wrong by hours;  doesn't notes know about
    time zones?  doesn't it convert all dates to the appropriate zone?)
    but since the secretary said he'd call first thing, if you hav't
    heard from him by now (11:52 am), I'd certainly call back.  Maybe
    the note is on his desk and he went straight to a conf. room or
    something.
    
2391.18YOSMTE::CORDESBRO_JOFri Apr 21 1989 19:349
    I called again and talked to the secretary, she says he has had
    a very full schedule today and was in with a client.  She assured
    me that she would get my message to him ASAP.  I will try again
    if I don't hear from him.
    
    I also got a lead on a Private Eye that repossesses cars.  I am
    tempted to call him and see what his reaction is.
    
    Jo
2391.19SCRUZ::CORDES_JAClogging is my life!Fri Apr 21 1989 21:163
    Are you going to repossess Magda? ;-)
    
    Jan
2391.20YOSMTE::CORDESBRO_JOFri Apr 21 1989 22:124
    One way or the other...;^) 
    
    Jo
    
2391.21CRUISE::NDCMon Apr 24 1989 14:303
    re: repossession
      Great idea!
    
2391.22WE DID IT!!!!YOSMTE::CORDESBRO_JOMon Apr 24 1989 18:4971

Well, it is all over, and we have Magda.  Sheri flew out on a military cargo
plane on Saturday, and vowed not to leave until we had Magda back.

She called Pam on Sunday morning, pretending to be calling from Hawaii, and
told Pam that she had executed a power of attorney for me, sent pedigree,
registration, proof of rabies vaccination, and everthing else she had showing
her as legal owner, along with a check for $1750 to retain an attorney and that
we planned on sueing her for in excess of $30,000.  Pam was overwhelmed, but
still not willing to give Magda back.  She said she was going to fight us in
court.  Pam's attorney just happened to be at her house, so she offered to let
us talk to him.  The first thing he said to us, was that he was *not* her 
attorney, and would not be representing her if we took her to court.  This was
apparently news to Pam, she was very upset.  He told us he was acting in an
advisory capacity only, and that Pam was willing to pay us whatever we wanted
for the cat.

Sheri took a different tactic and said Okay.  She said she would not negotiate
a contract and price while Pam was in possesion of Magda, cause that put us
in a poor bargaining position.  She got Pam to agree to bring the cat to a 
neutral place, and said to bring at least $300 in cash (we would not accept
a check from her), and that we would make up a contract (we meaning Ken, Brad
and I since Sheri was supposedly in Hawaii still).

We plotted this out very carefully.  We chose the Marriot hotel which is across
the street from my office.  We called the police and told them what we were 
doing, and asked for their assistance.  They agreed.  Sheri and I came to my
office to work up a phony contract, while Ken and Brad checked out the hotel 
for a good spot to meet.  They found a quite corner of the lobby that had a 
sofa, two chairs, and a coffee table.  It was only about 10 feet from the
door, and there was a circular drive right outside the door for a quick get-a-
way.  Ken waited in the car with the motor running.  Sheri played tourist,
and was in the lobby, her job to notify the police when Pam arrived with the
cat.  Brad and I had the job of stalling Pam til the police got there.  

I had some props with me, a toothbrush so that I could demonstrate how to clean
Magda's teeth, a very long phoney contract for her to read, my kitten care 
manual for her to read, an article on declawing for her to read, and I had
my script in my head, all ready for her.

The plan was for me to get Pam distracted with all the reading material, and 
when I saw Sheri approaching with the officer (from behind Pam) I would offer
to demostrate the tooth brushing.  Pam would hand me the cat, I would take
her out of the carrier, and then hand her to Sheri (the carrier was supposed
to be Pam's, she insisted, even though she still had Brad's carrier) who
would be standing next to the cop.

Well, Pam arrived.  Sheri called the cops.  Brad and I motioned Pam over
to where we were.  She had three other people with her and we were nervous.
She came over and set Magda's carrier in Brads chair.  I motioned to the sofa
and said "why don't you sit down, we have alot of information to go over", she
said "I am not going to do it".  I thought she meant that she wasn't going to
sit and discuss anything with us so I stood up and started reaching for the 
carrier.  She said "I am not going to sign your contract!" ... I grabbed the
carrier, turned away from her, and said "okay, fine, goodbye"  and headed 
for the door.  I looked back over my shoulder and she was standing there with
her mouth open, she didn't expect me to grab Magda I guess.  Brad and I were
almost out the door when we heard one of the people with her say "there
has to be some way we can get back at them, isn't there someone we can report
this too?"  The gall.  They actually don't think that they did anything wrong.

Brad and I hopped into the get-a-way car and headed out of the parking lot.  We
passed Ken, gave him the signal that we had the cat, he went and picked up
Sheri, who called the cops and told them not to come after all.  We went
to our prearranged meeting spot and then took Magda out of the carrier and
checked her over.  She seems in good health, but is very stressed out.  I think
she will be back to her old self in a few days.

Jo

2391.23WOW is all i can say :^0TPVAX1::ROBBINSMon Apr 24 1989 19:0511
    
    
    WOW I LOVE that way you guys pulled that off!!!!!!!!
    
    Congratulations to all of you............
    
    I'm sure Magda is VERY HAPPY.....
    
                                              Still in awe and smiling,
    
                                                                   kim
2391.24NRADM::CONGERMon Apr 24 1989 19:116
    
    	That's really great that you got her back, but after what
    	you overheard her friend say, I would be *extremely* cautious
    	about leaving Magda home alone, etc...(I forget, does she know
    	where you live?). 
    
2391.25AIMHI::OFFENMon Apr 24 1989 19:2537
    AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
    
    
    
    I just can't believe what I have read in this note.  
    
    1.  You are a co-owner..
    
    2.  You and other co-owner don't want to sell the cat.
    
    3.  You hold all the paperwork on this cat.
    
    4.  Brad was given the cat to take care of.
    
    5.  Brad gave cat to two women without checking with the owners.
    
    6.  Second woman is now keeping cat without your permission.
    
    7.  Police say they can't do anything even thou you hold all the
        paperwork.
    
    8.  Attorney wants 10 hours fee to get cat returned (maybe).
    
    9.  You might have to hire a private eye to *reposses* the cat.
    
    What am I missing????
    
    You are the owners and the cat is yours.  I don't care that the
    woman didn't know it then.  She knows it now.  She should be giving
    the cat back to you (with apologies).
    
    I guess I am from the *old school* were courtesy and common-sense
    prevailed.
    
    Sandi (I *DARE* someone to touch my kittys)
    
    
2391.26MILPND::FRANCINE42-39-56Mon Apr 24 1989 19:279
    
    
    
    
    Congratulations!!
    
    I agree with -2 be careful!!
    
    F.
2391.27Great News!SALEM::DEFRANCO_JMon Apr 24 1989 19:4314
    
    That's such good news Jo!!  I'm real happy to hear you got Magda
    back from these "selfish, inconsiderate" people.  
    
    I would be very careful in the near future as these people sound
    like they wouldn't have any problems with making your life miserable
    and possibly damaging your property.  And as you have already
    experienced, the LAW doesn't always work in the favor of the person
    in the "right".   It's a real shame when the "thief" has the upper
    hand!!                                            
    
    
    Jeanne
    
2391.28So what if I watch to many spy movies...YOSMTE::CORDESBRO_JOMon Apr 24 1989 20:2623
    I will be careful of myself, my other cats, and Magda.  Pam has
    already spread the word of our problem with some of my fellow
    Birman breeders, and unbelieveably, some of them have sided with
    her.  I hope that they are careful when it comes to placing a kitten
    or cat with her.  She is strange.
    
    I don't think Pam has my address, only my P.O. Box #.  But, fellow
    breeders could supply it if they felt inclined to.  I just can't
    figure some people out.  This one breeder actually had her hands
    on Magda, and knew that she was taken without my permission, but
    she did not hold her for me, or call and let me know that Pam had
    brought Magda to her house.
    
    Oh well, it is all over.  I just want to get on with things.  And
    Sheri still has one day left before she tries to hop another military
    cargo plane back to Hawaii, so I am going to try to make her trip
    more fun than she first thought it would be.
    
    One good thing did come of this, I lost 4 pounds!  I had no appetite
    during this whole thing and was able to drop below the plateau weight
    that I have been holding at for five weeks.
    
    Jo
2391.29turnabout is fair playJULIET::APODACA_KII'm here without a name...Mon Apr 24 1989 20:4514
    congrats, Jo!  I can't believe some of your fellow breeders are
    siding wity her...on WHAT grounds???  That woman took the cat
    unlawfully--and then wasn't going to sign a contract to legally
    purchase the cat anyway (even tho it wasn't for sale).  what has
    she done that was right?  if she cared for the cat, she would have
    taken all proper steps to gain it legally--not by proclaiming "it's
    mine now".   well, if the other breeders want to give a kitten to
    her, because she's so right, then fair justice will come about if
    pam decides not to pay them (because the cat sheds or whatever...)
    
    again, congrats!  i've been waiting to her the outcome of this all
    morning!
    
                                                             ---kim
2391.30CIRCUS::KOLLINGKaren, Sweetie, & Holly; in Calif.Mon Apr 24 1989 21:336
    Yeah for super mom!
    
    (How did the other breeder wind up with her hands on Magda?)
    
    What a relief!
    
2391.31after the fact, but my $.02INDEBT::TAUBENFELDIlza wants lizard skin boots.Mon Apr 24 1989 22:3326
    First of all, I am happy you got Magda back and I agree, given the
    facts as presented here, you had a right to the cat and shouldn't have
    had to go through all this. 
    
    But, before you all go calling this woman a psycho path, realize that
    not only she thought she had a right to this cat, but some breeders,
    people in your own profession who should know the laws, felt she had a
    right to the cat or at least didn't think it was as cut and dry as you
    did.  Why would more than one person all agree to something you think
    is so obviously against the law?  Maybe they or you or both did not have
    all the facts. 
    
    The whole agreement between Brad and Pam was heard by you second hand.
    Brad may have said he said things to her but really didn't, either he's
    changing the wording to not look so stupid or he forgot what he
    actually said.  Or he said what he thinks he said and due to the
    content or the tone or whatever, she misinterpreted what he said. 
    
    It really doesn't matter who said what at this point, unless she
    sues you, I'm just pointing out that you or she may not have known
    all the facts.  Maybe if and when you find out what was really said
    between Pam and Brad, by requestioning Brad or by asking the other
    breeders what facts they were told, it will make more sense.
    
    Sharon
    
2391.32Everyone is entitled to their $.02YOSMTE::CORDESBRO_JOMon Apr 24 1989 23:0044
    Sharon, one other breeder sided with Pam.  This breeder happens
    to be someone who has had to compete against my cats in the ring,
    and did so very unsuccessfully.  There has been resentment and no
    love lost between us.
    
    Brad may be telling me a different story than what he told Pam.
    That I may never know.  But the fact remains that after I told Pam
    that it wasn't my intention to sell Magda, she still refused to
    return her.  Therein lies the crime.
    
    Pam made no move to compensate me for Magda.  It was her intention
    to get her purebred cat for nothing.  Once she got her hands on
    my cat, the facts did not matter to her.
    
    I met with several attorneys, a small claims court judge, and officials
    at two different police departments to work out the details of this
    incidence.  All of them told me that Pam was breaking the law.
    
    Pam feels that she had every right to keep Magda since she and Brad
    had made a verbal contract for Pam to purchase Magda.  Part of the
    verbal contract was that Pam was to return Magda on Monday, and
    then Brad would contact Sheri and I to find out what we wanted to
    do.  Since Pam did not return Magda on Monday, the verbal contract
    for the sell of Magda was null and void.  Pam does not deny that
    she was supposed to return Magda on Monday.
    
    To counter a few points... I never called her psychopath, I may
    have called her strange though.  Also, this is not a profession
    for me, nor is it for most other breeders.  Nor are there any laws
    governing breeding, other than the basic laws of not abusing animals.
    Just because someone is a breeder, doesn't mean that they know all
    the laws.  As has been pointed out in several other places in this
    file, anyone can become a breeder if they have a mind to.  Brad,
    Sheri, Ken and myself all learned alot from this experience.
    
    Just a side note for those who are interested.  Sheri took Magda
    to the vet this morning because Pam had told us that Magda had a
    bad case of gingivitis and needed extensive dental work.  Sheri
    made an appointment to have Magda's teeth cleaned.  The vet told
    Sheri that there wasn't anything on Magda's teeth to clean off!
    They were perfectly normal for an 11 month old cat, and he didn't
    find any signs of gingivitis.
    
    Jo
2391.33CRUISE::NDCTue Apr 25 1989 11:4718
    re: .31
       What verbally transpired between Brad and Pam is totally
    irrelevant.  Brad had absolutely no authority to negociate
    in any capacity for Magda. If I verbally sell your house is
    that legal?  Of course not.
    
      Jo - GOOD FOR YOU!  You're an intelligent and gutsy lady.
    And good for Sheri too!  I don't know as I would have been
    able to come up with something that clever.  I probably 
    would have just showed up at Pam's house with a sledge hammer
    for the door.  I'm rather fond of the "brute force" approach.
    
      Good luck with Magda and Company and I agree you should be
    very very careful and be prepared to go for a restraining order
    immediately if this woman figures out where you live and starts
    causing trouble.
      Nancy DC
    
2391.34Cat Capper--happy ending--YEAH!FINS::CIOFFITue Apr 25 1989 14:2727
    SOOOOOO glad this had a happy ending!!!!!  I think your
    plan was really excellent (sounded like a movie), but
    glad you didn't have to use it.  Grabbing the cat was
    great quick thinking.  Don't know if I'd have been able
    to pull it off as well as you did!
    
    re. 31 - What was said between Brad and Pam remains
    irrelevant once Jo states to Pam that she didn't agree
    to any of it.  You may be on track with Brad not being
    totally mindful of what he said.  So, Brad hopefully has 
    learned something by this whole incident!! This lady, Pam, is
    obviously trying to bad mouth Jo all over the breeding
    territory.   An effective way to get back at Jo.
    Only those people who are not fond of Jo anyway will 
    believe Pam's side of it.  People can do others a tremendous 
    amount of damage by telling stories, and sometimes friends
    don't live up to the "friend" image.
    
    So, Jo, be careful in the future....and this lady will 
    more than likely show her true stripes to others in the
    future.  You are certainly smart enough to handle any
    future issues.  
    
    GREAT JOB,
    
    Karen (and Jasper-who-remains-safe-at-home-thank-God)
    
2391.35AIMHI::OFFENTue Apr 25 1989 14:4710
    WAY TO GO, JO AND SHERI !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    I'm with you.  I don't think I would have been as devious (not enough
    imagination) but I love what you did.
    
    Fantastic job......
    
    Sandi
    
    
2391.36SUBURB::TUDORKSKEADUGENGATue Apr 25 1989 19:067
    I'd have called her something a lot worse than psychopath!!
    
    Great news Jo, but I'm so sorry you had to go through all that.
    Your co-breeder sounds like a good friend as well.
    
    Kate
    (not a breeder, just a cat lover)
2391.37YOSMTE::CORDESBRO_JOTue Apr 25 1989 20:2015
    Kate, you are right. My co-breeder is a very close friend, and was
    my mentor when I got into breeding.  Our friendship goes beyond
    just the cats.
    
    We had a very tearful parting last night, Sheri leaves for Hawaii
    today while I am here at work.  We talked about making a trip to
    Hawaii in the winter to visit her.  I have never been to Hawaii
    and now I have a great reason to go.
    
    Jo
    
    PS - thank you all for your support.  Cat lovers are indeed a special
    breed.
    
    
2391.38Keep your ears open...HPSCAD::KNEWTONThere's no place like home...Thu Apr 27 1989 20:1214
    Jo,
    
    I'm so happy things worked out for you.  
    
    I have a feeling that Pam be lying to people to make it sound like
    she was in the right.  If that's the case, she could cause more
    problems.  I hope this doesn't happen.  I would be curious to find
    out what exactly she's telling people.  What a witch!!  It really
    disappoints me to see this side of human nature.
    
    I truly hope that you have no problems with her and can put this
    behind you.
    
    Kathy
2391.39YOSMTE::CORDESBRO_JOThu Apr 27 1989 21:1316
    Thanks for your thoughts.  I probably won't know what she is saying
    for awhile.  The breeder that she has been in contact with hasn't
    been showing for awhile so I don't see her much.  I found out that
    she knew at a monthly club meeting.  I won't see her again til next
    month's meeting.
    
    As for what she is saying, I don't really think that I should worry
    too much about it.  I have Magda back, and I know the truth, so
    that is all that should matter.  Of course, no one likes to think
    that people are going around spreading rumors about them.
    
    So far I haven't heard a word from Pam, and my house is still intact.
    My neighbor is home during the day, and she said she would keep
    an eye on things for me.
    
    Jo