Conference misery::feline_v1

    Why are they being sold without papers?
    
    Deb

    
    I echo .1's question - and why at such a price?  We paid $150 for ours
    as pet-quality kittens, but *with* papers.
    
    

    re: .1I wouldn't think that an applehead would be the siamese
    of today and be registered - I'm not sure what is meant by a
    "roman nose", but I think maybe it looks more like what 
    siamese breeders are breeding for today.  The mom and dad
    must not be registered or just the one with the "roman nose."
    Or, the people that let their cats breed are not planning on
    registering this litter.  I agree that it's a good bit for
    an unregistered kitten.
    
    E.T.

    A roman nose is a trait of a Birman and of a Cornish Rex.  The 
    nostrils are set low in the nose, and there is a definite bump on
    the top of the nose.  To the best of my knowledge, siamese today 
    are being bred for a straight line profile (no roman nose).  My 
    guess is that neither parent is registered.  Perhaps the high price
    could be due to the fact that the mom is appleheaded and the person
    breeding the cats sees that as a marketable fact (given that the
    general public is not crazy about the style of siamese that are
    being bred in the cat fancy these days)
    
    The person breeding these cats did not indicate whether or not there
    would be a spay/neuter agreement with these kittens or whether their
    health would be guaranteed.                                         
    
    I usually don't let anyone come over to see kittens until they are
    at least 8 weeks old and have had time to get their first vaccines.
    You can be taking unnecessary risks with their health by inadvertently
    exposing them to illness.
                                                            
    Jo
    

    
    	AFTER REVIEWING THE REPLIES TO THE SALE AD ON OUR FUTURE LITTER
    I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND SOME OF THE INPUTS AND QUESTIONS. LET ME
    QUICKLY EXPLAIN MY EXPERIENCE WITH OUR SIAMESE UP TO THIS POINT:
    	IT TOOK ME 2 MONTHS OF CALLING ALL OVER MASS. AND NEW HAMPSHIRE
    AND LOOKING THROUGH SALE ADS TO FIND MY 2 SIAMESE USING THIS NOTES
    FILE AND OTHER SOURCES OF DIRECTION FROM INDIVIDUALS. TO BUY A KITTEN
    WITH PAPERS AT OUR LOCAL PET STORE WAS OVER $300 AND A FEW BREEDERS
    IN NEW HAMPSHIRE WERE $250 AND UP BUT HAD NO KITTENS EXPECTED FOR
    SOME TIME. WHEN I QUESTIONED THE PRICE AFTER SPEEKING TO THE BREEDERS
    THEY ACTED AS IF I INSULTED THEIR INTELLIGENCE. THEY SAID YOU HAVE
    TO ASK THIS PRICE TO COVER EXPENSES OF THE PARENTS AND OTHER THINGS
    TO EVEN MAKE IT WORTH BREEDING THEM. I COULD NOT AFFORD THESE PRICES
    SO I SEARCHED FOR THEM WITH NO PAPERS BY PRIVATE FAMILIES WHO EITHER
    BREED THEM EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE OR SOMETHING. A FEW WEEKS LATER
    I FOUND THE MALE FOR $100 WITH NO SHOTS OR PAPERS. I HAD TO GET
    THE SHOTS FOR HIM. THE FEMALE WAS $125 WITH SHOTS BUT NO PAPERS.
    WE DECIDED TO LET THEM HAVE A FEW LITTERS AND SELL THE KITTENS FOR
    ABOUT WHAT WE PAID. I HAVE NO INTEREST IN REGISTERING MY 2 OR ANY
    OF THE KITTENS. I PUT THE NAME "SIAMESE CIRCLE CATTERY AT THE END
    OF THE AD BECAUSE I LIVE ON DIANA CIRCLE AND THOUGHT IT WOULD BE
    KIND OF CATCHY [I DON'T RUN A CATTERY]. IF THE PRICES FOR SIAMESE
    KITTENS HAVE CHANGED FROM A YEAR AGO WHEN I GOT MINE, I WAS UNAWARE
    OF THE DROP [MAYBE THEY ARE MUCH EASIER TO FIND NOW]. AS FAR AS
    THE RISK OF HEALTH TO THE KITTENS, I WILL BE FOLLOWING MY VET'S
    TRUSTED ADVICE THROUGH THE PREGNANCY, DELIVERY AND HOMEFINDINGS.
    ANY OTHER QUESTIONS,CONCERNS OR INPUTS ARE WELCOME.
    

    I got my little blue-point Niniane in Spencer, MA  about a year and
    a half ago for $125 w/o papers.  For a blue, the price was pretty
    much what I found in newspapers.   Her parents weren't registered,
    she had no shots, and there was no neuter agreement.  There were
    17 Siamese at the house, we met Mom and Dad and the owners, who
    very obviously loved and cared for the kitties.
    
    I think your price is fine.
    
    Mary-Michael, Niniane, Charm, Boogie and Dream

    I don't mean to insult, but I don't understand why you are "letting"
    your cats have kittens.  
    
                                                 ----kim

    Let me expand upon my last reply a bit.  I realize this many raise
    some hackles, but I will strive not to be terse:
    
    1) There are too many "backyard breeders" around today...breeding
    a cat because you simply want kittens and not to further or improve
    a registered breed is not, in my opinion, responsible.  There are
    many registered, pet-quality kittens out there for people who want
    an inexpensive purebred, and for every "backyard" cat there literally
    thousands out there already who could have their death sentances
    (harsh words, but true, look at the pound) commuted if someone would
    adopt, for free, them instead.
    
    2) I personnaly dislike breeding for $$$ alone.  It is not responsible
    breeding.
    
    3) The Cattery name implies that you do, in fact, run a registered
    breed cattery, and while it does sound catchy, you might run the
    risk of having people claim they were mislead by it.  This is probably
    why you were asked why you were breeding unregistered cats in the
    first place.  
    
    Again, my apologies if I offend or raise hackles.  This is my
    perspective on this situation, and as I am acutely aware of the
    pet population problem (which is human-caused, not pet-caused),
    I am strongly biased against unneeded breeding.  If other people
    wish to have an inexpensive, siamese-type cat, I believe that it
    is far better for all if they, like the author of .0 and .5, go
    out and find one already born, make certain it is neutered/spayed,
    instead of finding two and "making kittens", which simply adds to
    the problem of too many cats, not enough homes.

    I also agree with .8....
    
    I can't understand why someone would go through all the trouble
    of breeding animals without trying to better the breed.  There is
    a lot of time and money invested in breeding animals (to do it right)
    and there is no guarentees that what comes out will be what you
    want.
    
    What happens if no one wants your kittens....are you going to keep
    them or what?
                      

    I feel that by breeding and selling unregistered kittens, you are
    encouraging others to do the same.  You bought from someone else
    who was doing the same, many of the people you sell to will probably
    do the same.
    
    Alot of people who do this type of breeding justify it by thinking
    they will make back what they paid for their cats.  That is not
    adequate justification in my book.  Do you plan to insist that all
    of your buyers neuter and spay their kittens?  Do you plan to follow
    up on all of them and make sure that they do it?  Are you committed
    to providing a home for all of the kittens that you breed for the
    rest of their lives if their owners are unable to keep them any
    longer?  Do you plan to continue to breed your two siamese?  Are
    you certain that their lines are compatible and that you are not
    creating kittens that may end up dying from genetically transmitted
    diseases later on?  
    
    There is alot more that goes into breeding than just putting two
    cats together and letting them go at it.  If you are committed to
    doing it right, why not get good stock and start over.  I don't
    mean to be so critical, but this is one subject that really gets
    to me.  I am a breeder, I have registered cats, I have a registered
    cattery.  I spent over $12,000 on my cats last year, and do you
    know how much I made?  The cattery only made $900.00 last year.
    That means that the cattery was at least $11,100 in the red for the
    year.  I take great offense at you selling unregistered kittens
    for $125.00 and ending up making money at it.
    
    My opinions, take them or leave them, the choice is yours.
    
    JO
    

    RE:  the last few replies
    
    I wholeheartedly agree.  End of my soapbox!
    
    
    /Roberta
    

    Re. Jo
    
    I am glad to see a pro share my sentiments.  I was wondering if
    I was out of line, being as I am by far not a breeder, and know
    little about breeding other than if you put a male and a female
    together, you will end up with kittens.  Thank you for your backup!
    
                                                     ----kim

    re: .8
    
    It has not been my experience that a registered, pet quality kitten
    can be had for less than about $200.00.  If so, then perhaps I am
    wrong.  
             
    Flame on:
    
    I do not love Niniane any less because her parents aren't registered.
    I would not have taken a pound kitty, I wanted a Siamese.  The person
    who I bought my kitty from didn't take the breath out of a pound
    kitty's mouth to sell to me.  I could not then, and still can not, 
    afford to pay $200.00 for a kitten.  I do not at all feel cheated in
    my choice, and I'm not feeling too kindly towards the implication that
    if I can't spend the money for a perfectly pure Siamese, I
    shouldn't have any Siamese.
    
    This issue has been discussed in other places in this file.  All
    the poor man wants to do is sell his kitties. You don't have to
    buy them.
    
    Flame off   
    
    Maybe I just got up too early...
    
    Mary-Michael and the less than perfectly pure Niniane (and Charmy
    too!)
     

    
    
    	THANKS TO ALL WHO HAVE REPLIED [I WOULD STATE POSITIVE AND
    NEGATIVE, BUT EXCEPT FOR ONE, THEY WERE ALL NEGATIVE.] I WOULDN'T
    THINK TO GET DEFENSIVE ON THIS SUBJECT AS I'M SURE MOST WHO REPLIED
    HAVE MORE EXPERIENCE WITH CATS THAN MY WIFE AND I. ALL YOUR OPINIONS
    ARE RESPECTED AND WELL TAKEN EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE OPINIONS. I WILL
    BE TALKING WITH MY FEMALE'S "BACKYARD BREEDER" ALONG WITH OTHERS
    ON THE SUBJECT IN ORDER TO ALLOW EVERYONE TO SLEEP EASIER IN REGARDS
    TO MY SITUATION. SHE IS VERY RESPECTED BY AREA VETS AND EVEN THOUGH
    SHE DOES NOT "BREED FOR BUCKS [EX. $250/KITTEN, REGISTERED BREED,
    SHOWS AND EXHIBITIONS, (ALL BULL IN MY OPINION)] SHE ALLOWS THOSE
    CAT LOVERS AN OPPORTUNITY TO OWN AND LOVE A WONDERFUL COMPANION.
    	WHEN I BEGAN TO LOOK FOR A KITTEN I KNEW I WANTED (MY PEROGATIVE)
    A SIAMESE THAT I HAD NOOOOO PLANS ON DISPLAYING AROUND THE STATE
    OR SHOWING SOMEONE A CERTIFICATE THAT HAD NO VALUE TO ME OR THE
    ANIMAL. I WAS ABLE TO BUY A BEAUTIFUL,AFFORDABLE,HEALTHY KITTEN
    THAT WAS DOING NO HARM TO ANYONE BY NOT BEING REGISTERED. SHE HAS
    ALREADY GIVEN OUR FAMILY MORE THAN WE COULD HAVE EVER EXPECTED.
    HER EXISTANCE WITHIN OUT HOME POSES NO THREAT TO THOSE REGISTERED
    OWNERS WHO DESPISE HER REPRODUCING KITTENS JUST LIKE HER FOR ANOTHER
    FAMILY WHO HAVE THE SAME FEELINGS I DO. THE SAME GOES FOR MY MALE.
    I DON'T FEEL THAT MY TWO ARE RUINING THE SIAMESE BREED OR THAT BY
    HAVING A FEW LITTERS TO ALLOW SOME FRIENDS [WHO LOVE MY TWO] AN
    OPPORTUNITY TO OWN A SIMILAR ANIMAL IS IRRESPONSIBLE. I FEEL BAD
    THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF KITTENS IN SHELTERS BUT TO SAY THAT I AM
    ADDING TO THE PROBLEM IS PASSING THE BUCK. 
    	LIKE I SAID BEFORE, I WILL BE WORKING WITH MY VET AND OTHERS
    BEFORE OUR FEMALE DELIVERS. AS FAR AS OPINIONS GO, WE ALL HAVE ONE.

    re: -1  I have a friend who wanted a Siamese and couldn't afford
    cattery prices.  He searched for a long time and finally found
    one at a shelter.  Her name is Murphy which, I think, is an amuzing
    name for a siamese cat.  So altho its difficult, you can get your
    purebred from a shelter.....
    
    re: .0 - I did want to say that I feel sympathy for someone who
    did something in innocence and then got jumped on rather roughly
    for doing it.
      I hope that you will try to read the notes for the information
    that is contained in them and try to filter out some of the feelings.
    The people in this file care very very deeply for animals.  For
    myself, everytime I think about all the wonderful animals that are
    put to death (and MSPCA quoted a figure of 300-500 PER WEEK) I feel
    such despair.  Those animals are so wonderful with so much love
    to offer.  Its a terrible waste!
      Those deep and strong feelings get in our way sometimes when we
    try to educate people.  Many many folks have no idea of the number
    of unwanted pets there are in this country.  I'm sure they seen
    no harm in breeding a few kittens or puppies.  And kittens and
    puppies are WONDERFUL!  (I even used to love seeing my black mollies
    have babies - those are fish, guys)  Unfortunately, as long as 
    there are that many animals being put to death daily, no one who
    loves animals should, in good conscience, allow their pets to breed,
    unless its for the purpose of improving a particular breed of cat.
    And as Jo stated, that takes alot of work to do correctly.
      I have a purebred scottish fold and I would sincerely love another.
    I had a real arguement with myself about neutering him.  I wanted
    so much to breed him so I could get another free kitten as stud
    fee. I even thought about getting a female and doing some breeding.
    Emotionally it was something I really wanted.....Fortunately, my
    head won out (damned practical streak!).  Dundee is neutered now.
    If I REALLY want another fold, I"ll just save my pennies.  I can
    think of lots of little things I waste money on.  If I really want
    another purebred I'll just do without those things.
    
      So I dearly hope that you'll look at these notes as trying to
    help and understand that what comes across sometimes as an attack
    is born of the deep love of animals that we all share and the
    anguish and feelings of helplessness we experience when we see
    what's going on and can't stop it.  We all do the best we can
    and sometimes its easy to forget the human who's on the other
    end of this file.
      Nancy DC
    

    
    
    Sorry for the SHOUTING!!! I'm not a true typist but I'll try to
    remember.
    
    			Thanks again
    
    				Jeff

    re: .15
    
    Nicely said.  Better than I could do this morning!
    I guess I'm just ole grouchy today... ;-)
                
    In general:
    
    I do believe we are running roughshod over a poor
    fellow who thought he was doing a fine thing (IMO
    he not doing anything wrong, but I'll leave that
    aside for the moment).
    
    I also believe we need to agree to disagree on
    some issues or we're going to start losing 
    membership in this file and that would be a 
    shame, since so much good information can be gleaned
    from it.
    
    I feel as badly as everyone else about the number
    of unwanted pets in the world.  I feel even worse about 
    the number of unwanted human children in this world. 
    
    I just can't agree with you.  If I want a Siamese, I should be 
    able to get one, without extrordinary effort, at a price I can 
    afford, without apologies.  I realize my position is not a popular 
    one with many people. I fully realize your right to an opinion, 
    and I can certainly see your point.  But as long as so many human 
    children are unloved and unwanted in this world, I don't feel I can 
    change my mind. I won't yell about my neighbor's yard until I've 
    cleaned up my own.
    
    There is a very good argument for saying that we should all
    adopt homeless animals and not breed any, pure or otherwise
    until every homeless animal is loved (and neutered).  If we 
    shouldn't be doing it for $125.00, we shouldn't be doing it 
    for $250.00 either. 
    
    Mary-Michael  

    Mary-Michael -
      I tend to agree with your last point.  I would really love
    another fold but my conscience is nagging me about that so
    if we get a fifth cat it will probably be another shelter
    cat or one that would otherwise go to a shelter.
   
    
    
    
    re: Purebreds 
      My opinion about purchasing purebreds is that people 
    shouldn't do that just to have a purebred, but rather because
    they want that particular breed for a reason.  I LOVE the
    way folds look and they have sweet affectionate purrsonalities
    (true of alot of cats).  Having taken 3 shelter cats already,
    I felt the it would be ok to get a purebred. 
      If we don't try to educate people, we ARE contributing to
    the problem.  And I don't see the unwanted child problem as
    any more or less serious than unwanted pets.  To me all life
    is valuable, it doesn't matter the form.  And this is a
    Feline file.
    
      I almost forgot - I applaud the decision not to buy from a
    pet store.  I usually try to dissuade people from purchasing
    from a pet store - since puppy and kitten farms are a BIG
    contributor to this problem.

    This is a very emotional issue for me, I will be the first to admit
    it.  And, as was stated previously,(and in many notes before this)
    everyone has the right to his/her opinion.
    
    I hope that my notes were read in the way that I intended, which
    was to voice my opinion against the action and not against the
    individual.  In light of the recent events with poor little Frito,
    I do hope that the kittens resulting from this breeding will be
    sold with health guarantees, and spay/neuter contracts.
    
    Jo

    I'm not going to make apolgies for what I said previously, and I
    do not believe I ran roughshod over anyone.  It is the nature of
    this (and all notesfiles) that they are here for people to share
    and voice their opinions.  Certainly Mary-Michael (I hope I spelled
    that right) has a right to hers, and I certainly do not expect her
    to apolgize for it, and I would hope that I'm not expected to apolgize
    for mine.
    
    As I said before, I am sure this person (the original noter) does
    care about his cats very much.  I am sure he is a respectable human
    being.  However, even the most wonderful of us do things that may
    not be quite the right thing to do.  And some of us are trying to
    point out WHY we feel he shouldn't have bred his cats when there seems
     (to those who share my
    views) no justifiable reason for it.  Yes, you CAN get purebred
    cats from a shelter, foster home, or the newspaper--and discouraging
    backyard breeding is hardly going to eradicate every low-cost pedigree
    animal.  However, it
    might lessen the sheer overwhelming numbers out there.  As for the
    unwanted children remark, I know that is true.  However, unwanted
    children are not being euthanized right and left, nor do people
    have litters of 4+ several times a year.  There are lots and lots 
    and lots of problems
    out there, and each will have their own lobbists.  Mine is animals. 
    the VAST majority of the population problem stems from the human
    factor--you can always give litters of cats, dogs, etc to the pound,
    so what's the harm in having them, right?  And since I own quite
    a few animals and have no children (nor to I intend to), animals
    mean quite a bit to me.  I may adopt a cat, but as callous as it
    sounds, I am not in any position, nor do I wish to be, to adopt a kid.
    
    This, of course, is my own point of view.  Whether or not it it
    is anyone else's really is irrelevant.  I stated it clearly, fairly
    and without stomping on anyone else.  If I can just get ONE person
    like the original noter to NOT breed, then it's worth it to me.
    If you wish to disagree, that is your perogative.  I am not afraid
    of opposing views.  As long as you respect mine, I will certainly
    respect yours.
    
                                                               ---kim

    I have stated my opinion many times on this subject before.  And,
    I agree with Jo and the rest....
    
    No purebred cat should be bred unless the expected outcome will
    IMPROVE the breed.  PERIOD!!!  
    
    End of statement
    cin