Conference misery::feline_v1

    I vote for playing grizzly adams.  Since the kittens are old enough
    to be running around on their own, I doubt Karissa has enough influence
    to get them to come to your house if they are afraid.  They need
    to start getting used to you.  Once they are no longer afraid of
    you it will be easier to round them all up.
    
    Jo

    Keep doing what you're doing. You're winning.
    
    Side note - Read Diane Fosey's book "Gorillas In The Mist" for
    a real story of getting animals to trust.
    
    Edd 

    I agree with the Grizzly Adams bit...this is fascinating!  When
    it's all said and done it'd make a great short story.
    
    Karen, Tristan and Tenzing.

    From one Grizzly Adams to another.....
    
    Four babies!!  YIKES!!  I'd keep doing just what your doing (even
    if the mosquitoes get to you).  I'd also leave something that smelled
    like me (a t-shirt or a towel) real close to the food, so they get
    used to your smell.  Last summer, I leave a towel that I was using
    to catch some sun on my deck and in the morning, I had a Mom and
    her two babes sleeping on it.
    
    After a few days, start moving the food closer to your deck.  If
    you use some kind of canned food with tuna or liver, I assure you
    they (and every other cat within 20 miles) will find it!
    
    As for the trap, you can only get one at a time in it, so I'd forget
    that bit for a while.
    
    Good luck!
    Griz

    Keep up the good work Roberta, but for heavens sakes take pictures
    of all the happenings. Then later on you won't have to say when
    telling the adventure, "You should have seen....."  
    
    Can just see those little fur faces peeking out of the grass.
    
    Barbara
    

    Thanks for all your answers so far.  I am so glad to hear that everyone
    is voting for the grizzly adams approach!  I was hoping you'd say
    that, as I was hoping I am doing the right thing.
    
    A short story?  Never even thought of it, although if I am successful,
    it wouldn't hurt to write it all down and see the result.  Actually,
    I am having a lot of fun with this and surprisingly, my wedding
    is still on for next year.  Dana is really impressed with the way
    I am handling things and doesn't mind the extra time I am spending
    out in the woods.  Off the subject:  yesterday, as he was driving
    home from a friend's house, he saw a hurt bird in a a puddle, flapping
    its wings and chirping; apparently, it was having trouble getting
    airborne.  So, he picks it up with a towel, puts it in the car,
    and starts to bring it home to me, figuring, *I*, the nature freak,
    would know what to do with it.  Sad thing is, it died on the way
    home.  He probably scared it to death!
    
    Actually, Chauncey volunteered to take it off his hands...
    
    Keep those replies coming!
    
    /Roberta
    
    

    You might try taking some Pounce cat treats with you -- they seem
    to be irresistable to cats.
    

    Re: Pounce
    
    Although rarely one of the Pounce flavors will not appeal to a cat,
    the flavor in the blue can _always_ brings kitties.  I kid you not,
    it is guaranteed.
    

    Gee, Karen, I forgot about the Pounces!  All my strays love them.
    If you toss them in the air, the kittens will jump up and catch
    them (and then beat them to death!).  Let the babies discover them
    as food first, though, before turning it into a game.  It's hours
    of fun for all.  Last year, I had a couple babes that would come
    running whenever I shook the can (just like Honey and Chauncey!).
    
    Keep up the good work!
    Grizzley Adams of Nashua

    Hi Karen,
    
    Thanks for the Pounce tip!  I will stop at the supermarket on my
    way home from work.
    
    And Mary, thanks for all your help and sorry I had to cut you off
    on the phone last Friday.  How dare work interfere with our personal
    time, huh?!  I will leave something with my scent on it tonite for
    the kitties.  Did I mention that after petting mom, the babies were
    sniffing her all over?
    
    By the way, you guys should see my cat food supply!  If I have only
    $5.00 left in my wallet, it goes to cat food, not people food. 
    They eat better than we do.  I even have my neighbor clipping coupons
    for me.  I got some free samples of IAMS and left it out for daddy
    kitty.  He went nuts over it.  Karissa is getting finicky now though.
    I guess she feels she owns me already.
    
    
    
    

    Well, guys, last nite was a breakthrough!!!
    
    First of all, I have to thank Mary for suggesting to bring fishy
    food.  It worked!  At least with one kitten.
    
    Here's what happened:
    
    After feeding Karissa dinner at my house, I go to the woods armed
    with a can of Friskies Ocean White Fish and Tuna.  No kittens were
    around and Karissa was nowhere to be found.  My little four year
    old neighbor alerts me that she is sitting on her balcony.  I go
    to her with the bowl of food and she leaps up and we go back to
    the woods together.  One of the black and white kittens miraculously
    appears.  I think this one is the bravest of the bunch.  Karissa
    eats the whole bowl of food; not my intentions at all!  So, I take
    a seat on a rock and watch Karissa as she goes to her baby and they
    play for awhile.  I tried to coax the kitten out with what little
    remains were left in the bowl but it was stubborn.  So, I go back
    home and return with a can of real people tuna.  I sit back down
    on the rock and all of a sudden, Karissa bolts over and sticks her
    head into the can, the kitten in hot pursuit.  It kept walking toward
    me, backing up, walking toward me, backing up again, etc.  I decided
    to throw a trail of tuna to the kitten, the last piece ending at
    my feet.  Well, the kitten was so eager to eat the tuna that it
    came right up to me and as it bent its head down to eat, I reached
    my hand down and started petting it.  It didn't run away!  I kept
    throwing tuna down with one hand, still petting with the other,
    and as long as there was a steady supply of tuna, the kitten didn't
    run.  However, at one point it must have gotten a little nervous
    because it finally looked up at me, realized what I was doing, and
    took off!  When I looked up, I could see the other two black and
    white kittens watching the whole episode.  They wanted to come to
    me; they kept walking toward me, but always chickened out in the
    end.  I knew I had the perfect chance to grab that one kitten but
    I didn't want the others to fear me and also didn't want to take
    one baby without the rest.  I rarely ever see the tabby kitten.
    If I can at least get the 3 black and white ones, I can always set
    a trap for the tabby later on.
    
    I am going to keep going back with tuna and maybe some other types
    of smelly canned fish.  I sure do hope I have the same luck tonite
    and with more than one kitten this time!
    
    Do you know how hard it is going to be to give them all up after
    finally winning them over?  They are so cute!!
    

    Good Work Roberta!  I vote we start a "Tuna Fund" for Roberta!
    
    E.T.

    Heck, I'll help out!  I've got alot fewer mouths to feed this year,
    so I'll toss in a case of food for the crowd (as long as I don't
    have to smell the stuff!!!).
    
    Mary
    

    Heck, guys, what a generous offer.  I'm sure the kittens will greatly
    appreciate it!!
    
    I've sure got my work cut out for me!
    

    
    	What is going to happen to these 5 cats when caught???  The
    	Animal Shelter where they will most likely be put away??

    Hi Karen,
    
    The Sterling Animal Shelter in Sterling, MA, told me that they would
    take the kittens if, and only if, they are socialized first, as
    no one will want to adopt wild kittens.  They require a small donation
    for each kitten to go toward their shots, food, etc.  Sterling is
    a no-kill shelter.
    
    I would ultimately like to find them homes rather than take them
    to a shelter, but that could take quite awhile.  My neighbor has
    agreed to keep the kittens in her home until either homes are found
    or they are socialized enough to go to the shelter.  We will certainly
    try our best to place them ourselves before taking them to Sterling.
    The shelter will also take Karissa, although they did mention that
    older cats are more difficult to place than the babies.  But Karissa
    looks just like a baby herself; can't be anymore than a year old.
    
    As for the daddy cat, this might sound cruel, but he is so wild
    that I would probably trap him and have him euthanized.  He would
    need a lot of work and I don't think there is a place out there
    that would take the time to work with him.  Correct me if I'm wrong.
    I had to socialize my Nikki, who was a ferel cat in my previous
    apt. complex, until I was finally able to get him to the shelter where
    he lived until I moved into my own home and was able to adopt him.
    The shelter volunteers told me that there are very few people out
    there who will spend most of their free time trying to socialize
    and capture a ferel cat.  To me, it is a very rewarding feeling
    and a great accomplishment.  When I see Nikki now, I am so glad
    I did it.
    
    This whole siutation has really been taking a toll on my nerves.
    I have become so preoccupied with it.  Eventually, they are going
    to build more condos right in the very woods where the family is
    living; therefore, I am extremely concerned about getting them out
    of there as fast as possible.  Luckily, the condos are not selling
    with the real-estate market being so slow, so they don't expect
    to even start building until sometime next year.
    
    I hope this answers your question.  I *do not* want Karissa and
    her babies destroyed and will take every precaution to ensure that
    they end up in good hands and hopefully, good homes.
    

    Re: .16
    
    I realize this is a personal decision, and after all the tremendous
    effort you've put forth, I'm hardly qualified to criticize.
    
    But if it were me, and if I were going to go to the trouble of trapping
    the daddy cat, and if I were convinced he could never be a pet, and if
    he were free from obvious disease, I would have him fixed and then
    return him to the wild.  I'd try to find a better location though --
    perhaps a forest or a farming community. 
    
    This is surely a debatable point, and I don't believe there is
    a clear right or wrong.  Whatever you do will be the right decision
    for you.  And I applaud you for all the effort you've put out so
    far and will continue to put out.
    
       Gary

    Sounds like a good idea, but the problem is that a neutered cat
    doesn't stand a chance around other toms.  Unaltered male cats are
    fighters; they fight over women and territory and anything else
    they feel like fighting over.  An altered cat can't figure out what
    to fight for.  What's involved is that animal has to be knocked
    out, altered, and then kept in a cage to make sure he's OK.  When
    he comes around, he usually will freak and thrash to get out of
    the cage.  One tom I caught bit someone at the shelter, so he had
    to be kept in a cage until it was determined that he didn't have
    rabies.  He became very violent and vicious.  It wasn't a pretty
    sight to see him cowereing in his cage ready to rip apart anything
    that came near him.
    
    Everyone I've spoken to about this (vets, humane societies) recommends
    against it.  I cry everytime I have a stray put down, but on those
    nights when it's 10 below and the snow is blowing, I know the animal
    is better off.  All around, it's not an easy thing to do.
    
    Mary

    Trust your instincts, Mary.  That usually works for me - it seems
    to be working for you also!
    
    Elaine

    I can see it both ways, Gary and Mary.
    
    When I am at the woods with the babies and daddy cat is around,
    he will sit on a rock and watch the happenings but never participate.
    I always bring him his own bowl of food so he won't feel left out.
    He does not hiss and growl at me but runs for the hills if I even
    take one little baby step toward him.  His is both ugly and cute
    at the same time; all black, with a skinny body and very long legs.
    He often comes around my house and terrorizes poor Nikki, who thinks
    every cat is a friend and doesn't understand why this cat wants
    to hurt him.  As Mary said, he is a fighter.  I do not want him
    near any of my cats which is why I like to feed him out by the woods.
    If the food is on my balcony, then he will threaten my cats to try
    to get to it.  And if Karissa is by my home, it's even worse cuz
    he fights for his woman.  Feeding him away from the house has helped
    considerably, as I hardly ever see him around anymore.  I feel torn
    both ways.  This whole ordeal is taking a toll on my nerves; I just
    want to get those kittens out of the woods and socialized, have
    Karissa spayed, and worry about daddy cat last.  I made a vet appt.
    for next Friday to have Karissa checked over for possible pregnancy
    and overall general health.  I sure hope she doesn't loose her trust
    in me after I get her home.
    
    Now for the good news:  I have two of the black and white kittens
    coming to me for food and letting me pet them.  The third will watch,
    but not come over although I can tell it wants to!  I have not seen
    the tabby at all - that one might have to be trapped.  Only thing
    is, once I stand up, the kittens book - they still see me as a
    potential preditor and need a lot of work in order to become 100%
    socialized.  I do hope they don't remain skittish; they seem young
    enough that they could overcome it quite easily.
    
    I wish there was more time in a day to spend with them.  I only
    at night for about an hour or so.  Hopefully, I can spend a bit
    more time with them this weekend.  Once my neighbor returns from
    vacation, we can get the two black and white ones into her home
    and start to socialize them.  My neighbor has had a lot of experience
    handling strays and feral cats and absolutely adores kittens so
    I know she will probably socialize them a lot faster than I ever
    could!  She is also brave in situations where I tend to get nervous
    and panic, such as bathing and claw trimming.  She has two cats
    and does everything from flea dips to bathing to claw trimming.
    She is coming home this Saturday, so hopefully, I will have more
    to report next Monday.
    

    BTW, .20 is my reply.  I am using my boss' account cuz my system
    is down!
    
    Roberta
    

    You must be exhausted worrying about these babies.  When I was taking
    care of Khalife and Sasha ("neighbors away, petsitter didn't show
    up"), I was worn out with the uncertainty.  I'll just add that my
    first cat was a feral male, so they can be socialized.  I didn't
    have any other cat at the time, however, which probably makes a
    big difference.
     

    Tonite was another breakthrough nite...I got the other black & white
    and also the tabby kitten to eat!!  It took going back to the woods
    a 2nd time and fighting off misquitoes in the process, but it was
    well worth it!  They were shaking at my feet the entire time so
    I didn't even try to pet them yet; I would rather have them get
    used to me first.  The other two are getting to be pros, although
    they still refuse to even come near me when there is no food left
    or if I start to stand up and walk around.  After they scatter about,
    I can see little faces peeking out at me from behind trees and rocks;
    it's so cute!  I think what I would like to do is give them another
    week with me at the woods and have Donna come with me to see how
    they react.  I know they will probably be terrified of her, but
    I would like them to start seeing her there as well so rounding
    them up will be easier.  If worst comes to worst and they refuse
    to come around with her there, then she can hide with a carrier
    while I round up the babes.  I think getting the whole crew at once
    would be a lot easier and might make them feel more comfortable
    having all of their siblings around.  Then, we can bring Karissa
    to Donna's house so they can have momma there too.
    
    What is the best way to round them all up together?  I'm afraid
    if we do it one at a time, the witnesses will be terrified to come
    near me again thinking it might be their turn next.  Do you think
    if I put the carrier out in plain sight with lots of food in it
    then stand behind it and close the door when they all go in would
    work?  Should I feed them in it for a few days and leave it out
    at the woods so they get used to it??  I can even put a nice blanket
    in there so it can double as a bed.
    
    Need some suggestions...it could happen very soon!
    
    Thanks.
    
    P.S. - Mary, I know you keep telling me that kittens are stupid
    but with these guys, it's monkey-see, monkey-do.  If one eats, the
    other three are always watching and then start to follow along.
    That is why I am afraid to round them up one at a time.  Having
    no experience with this at all, I am really afraid to do something
    that might jeapordize the whole plan.  I've come way too far already
    to suddenly blow it!  Help!!
    
    

    You could try putting the carrier out and see how they react;  maybe
    you'll get lucky.
    

    What happened over the weekend?
    
    Maureen (back_from_Nova_Scotia, land_of_numerous_barn_cats)

    Nothing, much, Maureen.  Except that there are two more adult feral
    cats; one looking exactly like Karissa (her mom, perhaps?).  One
    of Karissa's babies looks just like this other cat.  The second
    adult is pure black, just like daddy cat.  Looks like I have a colony
    of ferals on my hands.
    
    The kittens are still very skittish.  Only two of them come to me
    regularly for food.  My neighbor is back from vacation and came
    with me to the woods last nite.  The kittens were unfazed by her
    presence as long as there was food.  They ate at her feet.  She
    reached down to pick them up and they fled.  They flee at any movement,
    big or small.  We left a carrier out there; put all the food way
    in back.  We want to get them used to eating in there so eventually
    we can sneak up on them and close the carrier door from behind.
    I can pet them only when their little heads are immersed in the
    food plate and I still have to approach it very slowly.
    
    We will do our best to catch all four.  If we can only get two,
    then that is just the way it will be.  As you can probably tell
    by my tone, I am much less enthused with this whole ordeal.  It
    is starting to become a chore.  I will continue to buy and leave
    out food for the true ferals and work with Donna to catch the kittens.
    One things for sure:  Donna is very brave, but even she admitted
    that the kittens probably would have ripped her to shreds if she
    was succesful in picking them up.
    
    As for Karissa, I am going to bring her to the vet Friday for a
    checkup; then look into taking her to a shelter.  It's really too
    bad; she gets friendlier by the day, but I really can't keep her,
    and if I get her spayed, she has to stay indoors after surgery,
    and she is not a housecat.  Even though she is starting to wean
    her kittens, I still cannot close the door behind her without her
    getting nervous and freaking out.  To spay her and put her back
    outdoors would only bring me back to square one come winter as I
    would worry about her out in the cold.
    
    So that's what's happening.  When we get the kittens, I will post
    another reply.
    
    /Roberta
    
    

    Re: being shedded
    
    Wear a denim jacket with long sleeves, or something of the sort.
    

    I don't know quite why, but I seem to have an affinity with cats
    that baffles other people, or maybe it is my approach. I have caught
    more than a few ferals in my time, and silly as it seems, this is
    my general approach.
    
    Pop the food down and sit next to it with your hands flat on the
    ground and DON'T look at the cats. A cat, whether domestic or feral
    cant seem to stand to be ignored. They will slowly start to sniff
    at your hand and become accustomed to the smell. After a while,
    lift one finger (don't look at it) and pat just a paw, just once,
    very gently.
    
    If you study animal behaviour, a stare straight into the eyes is
    a confrontation and they feel compelled into the fight or flight
    behaviour. If you are staring, quickly lower your eyes and look
    away. They see this as conceding defeat and they think they have
    the upper hand.
    
    Sorry if you already know this, I dont mean to sound condescending,
    but a lot of people don't.
    
    Hope this helps to start getting their trust
    
    -alison-

    re: .28
    
    Four of my seven were feral and I've pretty much used the same method
    as you describe. And while we are on the subject of feral cats,
    I want to mention that the long time feral ones have made the most
    affectionate  and best behaved pets. Much to my surprise, neither Nikolas
    nor Spiro spray around the house. Spiro has sprayed using the box,
    but a covered litter box solved this problem. They also seem real
    eager to please. For example, Niky's reaction to wearing a collar,
    and then getting a ID tag put on it was to purr. It almost seemed like
    Niky thought it was a badge of finally being owned. I guess what I
    am trying to say here is (in case anyone might be interested in
    adopting Karrissa or any other feral) is that they can make superb,
    lovable pets.
    
    Deb

    I will try the no eye-contact method and see how it works.
    
    Donna and I were out there again last night with the cat carrier.
    All four of the kittens are starting to come out in the open now
    to play.  Karissa is really no help to us anymore since her babies
    are primarily on their own and she is trying to wean them (when
    they try to suckle, she growls and swats at them).  The babies showed
    no interest in us at all last night nor the food which is very unusual.
    They were right out in the open area running around and playing.
    I have a feeling it won't be long before they start following the
    adult ferals to our homes.  All together, there are 4 adults and
    4 kittens.  We have got to get some of them before the numbers start
    to increase.  I really don't have the time or the energy to spend
    socializing feral cats, even though what Deb says is correct - they
    do end up being the most affectionate, perhaps because they are
    so grateful that someone cared enough to work with them and provide
    for their needs.  I hope I don't sound cruel.  If I can catch them,
    I will do my best to find a shelter that will take them and try
    to get them socialized.  If any of you know of a shelter that will
    *really* work with the cats and kittens, please let me know.  I
    was told that the Sterling shelter is not a no-kill so I am
    reconsidering that option.
    
    Thanks,
    Roberta