Conference misery::feline_v1

Listen, if it was my cats in this situation, I'd simply offer a full refund and
get the cats back....whether the full refund is owed, is secondary to the
breeder's responsibilty to the kittens that are bred.  They deserve a loving
home and the breeder knows the current home is unacceptable....the person
with the cats is obviously not happy now and never has been happy with
the cats - she is not likely to respond positively to the idea of owing
the breeder for cats she has spent money on already (vet trips, food, etc)
and not gotten what SHE expected to get in return.  This is doubly dangerous
because of the threat of killing the female because she isn't an acceptable
pet....Good God!  Get that cat away from this fruitcake before she kills
a lovely, healthy cat because the cat isn't friendly to her!

This is an issue that has a million considerations, but I believe the
welfare of the animal must come first - regardless of the "legal" issues.

    I would say the first priority is getting those cats away from that
    woman.  There is some chance, I suppose that she might give them
    up without a refund (she probably wants to get out of the situation).
    If not, maybe Kathie could get the cats back right away and say
    she'd pay the woman in installments.  Personally, I don't think
    she owes the woman a penny, but getting the cats out may require
    that she pay part or all of the $600.
    

    P.S. please keep us informed.
    

    Now that I think of it, I wonder if "not wanting to go thru kittenhood"
    might have been a tipoff?  I like fullgrown cats myself, because
    they're personalities are developed, but it sounds like maybe that
    female person (I won't call her a "lady") was expecting a pair of
    statues.
    

    Jo,
    
    What did the sales contract have in it?  Ours gives a set period
    of time for spaying/neutering and a wealth of other restrictions.
     It also states that if the conditions aren't met we take the cat
    back - no refunds.  Both parties sign it which makes it a legal
    contract (just ask James Hart).
    
    Frank

    Since she is thinking of "putting down" one of the cats, perhaps
    she would not be apposed to returning the cat without a refund.
    After all, she would have to _pay_ to have her "put down".
    
    Marion (who has a hurting heart for these two little darlings!)
    

    
    	I don't quite understand this.  How come a show cat is
    not friendly???  I would think that they would make great
    pets since they must be used to the handling received at
    shows.  It sounds like these two cats were not kept in cages
    when the friend in .0 had them, right??  Well, if you can
    explain that to me then thanks.
    
    	Now, as far as the cat goes.  I personally feed that a person
    should not get into breeding if they can't afford it.  From what
    I understand, a breeder rarely makes any money so that person
    should have the income to absorb any losses, and also to recover
    the cats in a situation such as this.  
    
    	It also seems to me that some cats want purebreed cats just
    for the sake of owning a showpiece.  These people aren't cat
    lovers, just show offs.  I would think that a breeder would be
    able to recognize these people when interviewing them.  I can
    tell immediately if someone likes cats!  They talk to them, they
    know how to hold them, they know when to put them down.  I've
    watched people with my two cats and even though most people would
    never admit to a cat owner that they don't like cats, you can
    tell!!!
    
    Karen 
                                                                    

    GOD!  Get those cats out of there before the female person (I agree
    with Karen, the person is NOT a lady) has a chance to put down that
    beautiful creature!  
    
    I have had an experience similar to this.  We got a Rottweiler puppy
    from a breeder.  We had the puppy for about a week and we decided
    that he was just too much to handle (6 weeks old and already 45
    lbs.).  We called the breeder and asked if we could return the puppy.
    She said that it was no problem, but she only gave us a partial
    refund of our money (which was fine with us).
    
    Try talking to the female person and offering a partial refund for
    the two cats. (ie. about $300).
    
    Holly
    

    "female person"
    
    I'm not sure I'd go so far as calling this individual excuse for
    a human being a person.
    
    Did the contract that they signed have somekind of a "return clause"
    in it? Is there some kind of a low-cost legal aid society in your
    area that could perhaps give you some advice?
    
    Deb

    Hi everybody,  I have been trying to reply all day but we lost our
    "logical link" so I will have to make this as brief as I can.
    
    I will have to check with Kath on the contract.  I think she may
    use the same one I do which says the cats can be repossesed with
    no compensation to the buyer if the terms of the agreement are not
    met.  Problem with that... she has met the terms of agreement. 
    There is no way to prove that she has done any type of mistreatment.
    She believes that any problems she has are Kathie's fault or stem
    from the fact that the cats were originally show cats.  I think
    that is ludicrous.  My cats are very people oriented and I feel
    that is partly due to the fact that they receive alot of handling
    at shows.
    
    It has been suggested to Kathie (by a fellow Aby breeder and CFA
    judge) that she try to place Rock and Annie in new homes and if
    she is able to do it for a fee (which is not that likely since they
    are both adults no and have received questionable treatment for
    the last five months) then she should forward that fee on to the
    woman.
    
    Kathie is very distraught and so am I.  She is afraid to call the
    woman for fear that she will make the woman mad and then the woman
    might do something stupid like put Annie down or let them both loose
    in the hills around her house (she lives in a very rural area near
    Fresno).  Kathie wants to write a letter to the woman, she thinks
    she can communicate better that way and not loose her temper.  I
    disagree.  I think she should call her at once.
    
    I will keep you informed.
    
    Jo

    It seems to me that if the woman thinks she will be getting her
    money back, she will be less likely to dump the cats.  I would call
    her immediately and offer to repay the $600 in installments (if
    necessary offer her a written letter promising repayment and an
    initial deposit) in exchange for the cats NOW.  If Kathie is too upset
    to be diplomatic, could you talk to the women, perhaps?
                      

    If the woman doesn't want the cats, I can't help but think she'd
    let them go to someone who does (and would be more likely to do
    so if she could get some cash in return.)
    
    Since these cats seem to be sweethearts, I'm offering $50 to
    help the them out. If she needs to be 'persuaded' to put the
    cats in a good home, I want to help.
    
    Edd

    I'll add $25 to Edd's offer.  Can't afford much more, but sure want
    to see these cats in a good situation.  I'd take them if I thought
    they'd survive a house with 3 kids, 2 dogs and 2 cats.....and me
    the only adult!!!
    
    Ellen

    I personally think that I wouldn't bother to write or to call, but
    would get in my car as quick as possible and get those cats out
    of the *!@#$$%^&*('s house!!!
    
    Not that that's what I'm suggesting!!!  Just what I think *I* would
    do.
    
    cin
    

    One possible way for your friend to avoid any sort of confrontation
    might be to simply call her and state that you are sorry that she
    is not happy with the cats, and that you might have somebody who
    would want to buy them from her for, say, $300.  This way your friend
    avoids any argument, and seems to be trying to help the lady out.
    I know that people can get very defensive when they feel they are
    backed up to a wall and required to justify their oppinions about
    the rearing of pets, but if sombody wanted to "buy" them, there
    is no conflict, right?  
    
    Marion

    You guys are terrific!  I have warm feelings all over about your
    responses.  I just got off the phone with Kathie (called her at
    work after reading the last couple of replies) and she was almost
    in tears (of happiness).  She feels very lucky to be able to get
    this kind of support from people she doesn't know.  She has recently
    seperated from her husband, and feels very alone in the world right
    now.
    
    Kathie wrote a very good letter to the woman.  It was mailed yesterday
    morning.  I must admit, I was skeptical about whether a letter would
    be the best way to handle this, but she read it to me and I think
    she handled the situation well.  She has made a copy for me so I
    will enter it in here when I get it.  Knowing what she does about
    the woman, she was afraid that she wouldn't give up the cats, money
    or no money.  In her letter she stressed that the cats are not happy
    and that both Kathie and the woman have to do what is best for the
    cats, even if that means placing them in new homes.  Kathie will
    follow up the letter with a phone call.
    
    Thanks again for all of the support and help.  It will probably
    be a few days before we have anything else to report.  The basic
    plan is to get Rock and Annie back and try to find them new homes.
    I know I have mentioned this before, but if anyone is interested
    in giving them a good home, please send me mail.  I don't expect
    it will be easy to place them givin that they are both adults now
    and have gone through quite a bit in their present home.
    
    Jo
    
    

    If it comes down to cash, I can pledge $50.  I can be reached via
    MAIL as above or at DTN 264-6926.
    
    re. something previous [what follows is _not_ a flaming defense
        _at_all_]
    
    	I would prefer not going through kittenhood either, I ADORE cats,
    and my three are not, not, not angels.  So no guilt or second guessing
    should be in order over the fact that this Vermicious Knid didn't
    want the bother of a kitten.
    
    
    re. the vet
    
        I wish there was some way to 'de-frock' this person.  Recommending
    that a creature be destroyed because it's neurotic?!?!?  [Which
    does not address whether this kitty actually _is_]  One wonders
    what advice the parents of other patients are receiving...
    
    
      Ann
    
        
    

A reputable vet does not recommend euthanasia for a shy or withdrawn animal,
and I doubt if anyone did in this case....I suspect the woman DOES NOT
want the cats and DOES want her money back...ergo, the tale of neurotic
behavior and threats of putting the one cat down.  This was obviously
a spontaneous purchase on the part of the buyer and was not a good match.
Regrettably, the signs are that the cats will not be returned unless
someone pays the buyer....AND there is a great risk that the cats will
be sold to just anyone who can come up with the money which can be a real
problem if the female is not yet spayed....my parents used to raise dogs
and I've seen this kind of game before over puppies.

    RE:  .16
    
    I have found that an adult pure breed cat will usually find a home where
    the new owners will literally _treasure_ the little creature.  I
    have known of Abys that were former show and breeding cats that
    have for one reason or another been "fixed" by the breeder and "placed"
    in a "pet home".  After all, these cats have always had the best
    sort of food, medical care, and sanitary care that an experienced
    cat breeder can offer.  If these facts are hilighted _up_front_
    in any advertising effort (ie _Digital_This_Week_) the little darlings
    should be off to their new homes in short order.
    
    Marion                                    
    
    PS - I think the lady that thinks that show cats have rotten
         dispositions has a few screws loose! 
                                             

    Here's another offer of $50.  That makes $175 total if my count
    is correct.  My work phone is (415)853-2117 and home is (415)325-6407.
    

    re: .18
    
    Kathie did everything she could to make sure this was not a spontaneous
    purchase, i.e. she did not give the cats to the woman at the show,
    she made her wait for them, she spent long hours on the phone with
    the woman, she had her over to the house.  Kathie and I both thought
    this was a good match.  The woman is older, lives alone, and wanted
    companion animals.  She wanted indoor pets that were healthy, happy
    and well adjusted and that is what she got.
    
    Kathie is not the *least* bit likely to let Rock and Annie go to
    just anybody who has the money.  She kept Rock til he was a year
    old in the first place and that was not because she couldn't find
    anyone to sell him to either.  Plenty of people had wanted him,
    but he was Kathie's first baby and she wanted to make sure he had
    the right home.
    
    Annie was spayed two weeks ago.  That part of the contract has been
    met.  Rock was altered before going to the new home.
    
    This woman had both Kathie and I fooled.  Kathie feels awful that
    she placed her two beloved cats in a home were they are not happy.
    They will come back to live with she or I before they will be placed
    with anyone, money or no money.  The welfare of the cats is first
    and foremost, not the money.
    
    For those of you who are familiar with Abys, Rock is Abbirman's
    Rock Hudstone and was Fourth Best Red Aby kitten in the country
    for last year.  
    
    Jo
    
    

    Jo Ann,
    
    I know you and I have talked this over but I thought I'd put it
    in writing for you just to remind you.  There is always space in
    my apartment for Rock and Annie (at least temporarily) and I'll do 
    what I can to add to the money.  I haven't checked the budget lately 
    (what there is of it) but I can probably handle $25 with no problem.
    
    If I could I'd take Rock and Annie and give them a permanent home.
    Since Kathie lives so close to me, she could even come for a visit.
    But, as you know I am at cat maximum right now (two cats in a no-pets 
    apartment) so I can't add two more yet.    
    
    I know how much Kathie loves these two precious kitties and I want to 
    help her get them away from a home they aren't happy in so let me
    know what I can do to help.
    
    Jan
               

    Hi Jo,
    
    I, too, have a very tight budget (especially since I took on fostering
    Karissa); however, I am offering a donation as well if it comes
    to that.
    
    Please keep us posted.
    
    /Roberta
    

    Hi everybody,
    
    I was away for the weekend at a cat show so I won't have anything
    new to report until I have a chance to talk to Kathie this evening.
    I will let you all know when I hear something.
    
    Thanks to all of you for your generous offers.  Kathie and I are
    both very touched by your generosity.  I don't know what will happen
    next, but it is nice to know that there is somewhere we can turn
    for help if we need it.
    
    Jo

>    Kathie did everything she could to make sure this was not a spontaneous
>    purchase, i.e. she did not give the cats to the woman at the show,
>    she made her wait for them, she spent long hours on the phone with
>    the woman, she had her over to the house.  Kathie and I both thought
>    this was a good match.  The woman is older, lives alone, and wanted
>    companion animals.  She wanted indoor pets that were healthy, happy
>    and well adjusted and that is what she got.
    
I know you both did what you could, but I was referring to the woman's
attitude - I don't think she investigated what is required to create a
good bond with a cat.

>    Kathie is not the *least* bit likely to let Rock and Annie go to
>    just anybody who has the money. 

No, I didn't think so, but beware that the woman doesn't attempt to
reclaim her money by selling the cats herself!

				D

    
    Don't forget to let me know if I can help financially.
    There's always part of the budget (and part of my heart) allocated
    for furry friends.
    
    Brian (in Munich)

    What's happening with Rock and Annie?
    

    No news yet.  I will advise as soon as we hear.  Kathie is waiting
    for a response to her letter.  She will call the woman tonight if
    no response is made by the time she gets home from work.  Thank
    you for all of your generous offers.  I will be away for the weekend
    again so unless I hear something today, I won't post another note
    til Monday.
    
    Jo

    Finally some good news.  Kathie hadn't heard from Helen (the woman)
    so she called her on Friday night and they spent several hours on
    the phone.  Kathie was correct when she said she thought Helen would
    not agree to give the kitties up.  Helen says she loves Rock and
    Annie very much and she does think they are happy living with her.
    She says she has been reading up on Aby's and their personalities
    and thinks that she was expecting them to act differently.  She
    didn't realize that the way they were acting was typical Aby behavior.
    (We are talking not about hiding under the couch, but of not wanting
    to be held and cuddled all the time).
    
    Kathy decided that this needed investigating.  She went to Helen's
    house to check it out for herself.  She found Rock and Annie to
    be very well adjusted and happy.  She was greatly relieved (although
    a bit disappointed that they didn't recognize her and jump all over
    her with joy ;^) ) after she saw them.
    
    Kathy talked with Helen's son who told her that Helen was just put
    on some new medication that has caused her some problems with her
    memory.  Helen is an older woman.  It was his opinion that the
    medication could have affected her in some way and caused her to write
    such a distressful letter.  The Dr. has changed her back to her
    old medication a she appeared to be completely in control of herself.
    Her son has promised Kathie that he will keep an eye on Helen in
    case she has any health problems that might affect Rock and Annie's
    well-being.

    In the meantime, Kathie sees no reason to take Rock and Annie away
    from Helen.  They are in fact happy and healthy, they are also spoiled
    rotten by Helen (she feeds them broiled turkey breast for dinner
    every night.)  
    
    I am greatly relieved that the situation isn't as awful as we first
    thought.  I know that Kathie is relieved to.  We both want to thank
    you for your support and generosity in terms of the offers of money
    to help Kathie out.
    
    Jo

    Re: .29
    
    I don't know whether to be relieved or worried.  I wonder if it's
    worth while Kathie having a short talk with the woman's vet, to
    fill him in on the situation, and ask him to call Kathie if something
    goes wrong in the future?