Conference misery::feline_v1

    Please read 1412.13.
    
    I should mention that Venom is an Abysinnian also, and Mara was
    a Spotted Mist (an experimental breed out here that is a Burmese
    Abysinnian cross with moggy way back to give the cats a "self coloured"
    dappled spotty effect.
    
    Maybe its something in the Abysinnian nature as my Rex and Burmese
    never bothered her.
    
    This isn't much help, I know, but I'd love to here how you go with
    the problem (I had male versus female, not female versus female)
    
    Alison

    Have you given the little baby a bath since she went into heat??
    Maybe she is still carrying the odor and the other cats don't like
    it.  Also, what is the `aroma' that you mentioned?  Seeing it is
    her hiding place, maybe that's what the other cats are picking up.
    
    Good luck and keep us informed.
    
    Sandi
    
    

RE:  bath

I have didn't even think of giving her a bath.  I suppose I could do that after
her stitches are out.  The smell of a female in heat shouldn't bother them,
since it never has before.  I am a breeder, so they have gone thru this sort
of thing for a long time.  


RE:  aroma

It seems that Justa was so intimidated that she had been using a section under
the china closet as a litter box area (sans litter)!


Last night, while I was cooking dinner, I took Justa out of the guest
bathroom, closed the door (she immediately wanted to go back in), and put her
in the hall.  I then fed the kitties in the kitchen.  Justa would not go into
the kitchen for dinner, though she might not have been too hungry since she 
had food in the bathroom all day.  After a little while the others spotted her
in the hall and sort of crouched down to observe her from a safe distance.
This went on for nearly an hour.  There was some low growling (I couldn't see
who was doing it), but that was all.  I'd call this a successful step.  I
figured I didn't want to push it, so I put her back in to the guest bathroom.
This morning before I left for work, I removed the food from Justa's bathroom.
I figure she will be hungry when I get home.  I hope din-din will provide yet
another non-hostile episode.

It looks like little Biscuit is trying out for the Henry Kissenger role of
shuttle diplomacy.  While the three of them were involved in what looked like
a Mexican stand off in the hall, she went from cat to cat rolling over on her
back and nuzzling and licking each one as if to say "c'mon!  Lets play nice!".
And this morning when I was giving Puppie her 1/2 pill I had put Toasties 1/2
pill on the kitchen table next to me.  Little Biscuit jumped up, sniffed the
pill once, and before I could do a thing about it she had eaten it.  Well,
so much for not giving the kitten any pills!

I'll keep you all updated as things progress.  So far, so good!

Marion

Well, I am very discouraged.  The kittys have been on Ovaban for over a week
now, and they still are hostile.  I can bring Justa out of the guest bathroom
and she will hide.  When the other cats figure out where she is, they sort of
take their time, but they manage eventually to sneak up on her and start to 
fight.  I gave Justa a bath (the poor baby looked _SO_ pitiful when she was
wet!).  It hasn't seemed to help.  The way I have things now, I alternate days
for the cats to have the run of the house.  One day the two Abys are unconfined
and the next Justa and The Bickit can run free.  The ones who are confined stay
in the sunroom which has a lot of windows.  They seem to like it there.  One
good sign is the fact that when Justa and The Bickit are together it's like old
times.  They run and play so hard that it does my heart good.  I am _SO_ glad
that they have each other.  I can't wait until our little household is back in
one piece once more.  I know that will happen.  I just haven't figured out how
just yet.  Any suggestions?  I have considered putting food, a litter box and
all the kittys in the big bathroom for a day or two.  That way they would be 
forced to work things out.  I'm not sure that I want to push things that far
just yet, though.  A friend of mine suggested a "pet shrink".  Does anybody
have any experience with this sort of thing?

Marion

I'm really surprised that this is happening for so long....I've had cats for
over 35 years, and neither I nor my friends have seen this kind of behavior
after a female member of the household is spayed.  I would definitely
suggest getting a "pet shrink" to come in and watch the dynamics going on
here....

Of course, my first impulse would be to let the cats work out the pecking
order for themselves...only you can decide if their hassling is so bad
that someone is trying to really hurt someone else.  If what you are
trying to avoid is ANY conflict, then I feel you may be prolonging the
agony....the cats are going to have to periodically shuffle the pecking
order.  This always happens in multi-cat households when anything changes.
In my house, this even includes visits to the groomers....the next few
days are punctuated by lots of growling, hissing, yowling, and spitting
as the gang shuffles the deck.  The two girls even roll around a bit.
However, I've never seen this result in any injury and after a few
days of it, I will invariably find the two worst offenders sharing
the same end of the water bed for a nap.  It actually is the only time
I see Samson move, so I look upon  pecking order reshuffles as his 
aerobic sessions.....he NEEDS them.

    RE:  .5   SKITZD::WILDE
    
    
    I'm with you about the actual fighting.  For the most part I believe
    it to be more for show than anything.  I agree that the situation
    should have worked itself out some time ago.  The main problem is
    that Justa stays cornered for days!  She has lost alot of weight,
    and she does "her dirty work" under or behind what ever she is hiding
    under or behind.
    
    Marion

    RE:  .5   SKITZD::WILDE
    
    
    Just a slight adjustment in fact - the trigger seems to have been
    her going into heat, not getting fixed, though there were a number
    of things going on at the same time.  Perhaps it would be best if
    I listed the "out of the ordinary" things that were going on at
    the time.
    
    
    1)  I got married on March 19th.  The wedding was out of state,
        so there was not a croud of strangers around the house.  When
        Gerry and I got back to the house on Sunday, March 20 Justa
        was in heat.  A friend of mine stopped in at the house every
        other day for the 3 weeks we were away.  She said that she was
        worried that she had let Justa out of the house.  She said
        that she never even saw her all the time we were away.
    
    2)  At least 8 feral cats were posted outside the house at all hours
        of the day and night from the time Justa went into heat, until
        only a few days ago.  That might have upset the other cats,
        but I don't think justa ever saw them because she was hiding.
    
                                                                     
    There are the only things that were out of the ordinary.  Say, perhaps
    you Feline noters can play "shrink" as well as anybody.
    
    Marion
    
                                                       

    hmmmm.. POOKIE was using my carpet like that for a bit.. evne the
    waterbed..Cin gave me some pointers.. I KEEP happy out of the
    bedroom,while I  am work.. I LEAVE pookie in there with food, treats,
    magazines, toys, litter box , phone (to cal her bookie/
    broker/chauferfer..) she has always "rested" in moms room..
    and I LEAVE HAPPY IN THE livivngrom/kitchen..... at nite
    I bring POOKIE  after her grooming session.. and keep
    the bedroom door shut.. POOKIE still growls at happy
    if happy attempts to get up on the sofa.. I just do a 
    shush.. POOKIE.. SHE IS NOT GOING TO HURT YOU.. she just wants 
    to say hi.... no more growling,, POOKIE pouts alittle..
    and Happy goes off.. to play again.. I HOLD HAPPY, THEN HOLD POOIE
    ETC.. PLAY WITH BOTH.. at bedtime.. I take pookie with me..
    hug happy... then  off to bed.. POOKIE HAS BEEN FINE,, 
    no more "mishaps.. cin sadi she just does not want
    to share.. .. what I have been doing this week
    is when I take pookie out to the livingroom. Ipick up the
    food dishes, litterbox, toys etc in the bedroom. leave the door
    open,, HAPY WENT IN RIGHT WAY.. and I WATCHED.. SHE WENT
    LOOKING FOR THe toys BOX, AND FOOD,, and when she did
    not find them she came out.. whining and talking,, and Pookie
    watched her..no reaction.. just hmm.. .. my vet said
    IF pookie wants to stay in the bedroom fine, just leave her
    a clan box, food etc.. that way it teach HAPPY TO
    USE her box etc.. try it.. cin was right!!!!!.. 
    pookie is much better.. 
    regards
    kate

    Re: .7
    
    Sounds like it was pretty upsetting there for awhile to Justa (8
    feral cats!  Mine can tell when a strange cat is within a hundred
    feet and not making a sound.).  I'm not surprised things went out
    of whack with all that and her parents being away.  Can you try
    writing to Carole Wilbourn (sp?) or calling her?  She's a cat shrink
    who writes for either Cats magazine or Cat Fancy.
    

    Time to try a new tack.  The Ovaban just didn't work.  When I get
    home from work I am going to pull every piece of furnature in the
    house away from the wall so Justa won't have anyplace to "squirl
    up".  I will have the door to the bathroom shut at all times so
    she can't revert to hiding behind the commode.  Then all the cats
    will be allowed to roam free in the house.  Justa has fully recovered
    from being fixed and I am tired of playing the "kitty shuffle" with
    them.  I clipped all their claws last night.  They are just going
    to have to work this out for themselves.  I'll let you know how
    World War III goes.
    
    Marion
    
    ps - The vet told me that justa should have her stitches out 10
         days after her opperation.  When I went to take her to the
         vet, to my astonishment she had removed the stitches herself
         (Rambo, eat your heart out!).  Has anybody had their fur face
         do that?
                 

One suggestion before letting them all run free:

get some kind of kitty deoderant from the vet or a pet store and spray or
rub all cats with it...making them all smell the same.  It may help reduce
the hassles involved here.

I've also read somewhere that rubbing your cats with a weak lemon/water
solution would help too.  It all has to do with smell.

Good luck...I think you're doing the only thing you can do now and I'm
sure it will all work out.

				D

>         days after her opperation.  When I went to take her to the
>         vet, to my astonishment she had removed the stitches herself
>         (Rambo, eat your heart out!).  Has anybody had their fur face
>         do that?
                 

	 Becky wasn't  very appreciative of her 'zipper' either. She had
     almost  all  the  stitches  out  by  the time she went back for her
     post-op checkup.

    Yeah, but how did she untie those teeny weeny little knots?
    
    

    Pookie too....!!!!!!!!! amazing...!!! She did the same thing when
    she had her eye surgery..!!!! it was interseting cuz a few days
    after she was home after her eye surgery.. she devloped the 
    "POOKIE FLU"...fever etc..so she was treated for that in the vets
    office.. and the stitches were there.. so I go to take  her back
    to get the stitches out.. a couple of days later.. DR ERIC
    calls at work .. and there are no stitches...!!... hmmmmm..So I
    asked Pookie .. the million dollar question... how come?..
    she responded.. IREFUSE TO LOOK LIKE A RACOON ANYLONGER,
    ESPECIALLY A RECOON WITH BLACK EYE-LINER.. REALLY MOTHER!!!!!
    :^))....
    regards
    kate

    Sarah also did her own post-operative maintainance.  My skin still
    crawls when I remember watching her tug on those stitches.  Yikes!
    
    She only had one stitch left when we went back to the vet.  He gave 
    her high praise, though, since she did a very nice job of pulling
    the other threads out cleanly and completely.  Apparently a lot of 
    cats just gnaw away at the knot and the rest of the stitch stays under
    the skin.
    
    He didn't give a discount on stitch removal, though!
    
    Joanne
    

    Mielikki got stapled shut when she was spade.  After coming home,
    she decided to pluck them out.  I had visions of her stomach contents
    pouring out, but they didn't, as is evidenced by her rather plump
    tummy.
    
    When I told my next vet, the one who spade Ishtar about it, he said
    that cats rarely pluck out their stitches.  Ishtar proved him wrong.
    
    Sharon
    

    I don't know about that ; it sounds like a lot of cats are doing
    it!  When Eirene was spayed, she removed her own stiches, too, and
    the vet said did a very clean job of it. I wish she would have told me
    that she did it because I was late for the home inspection I was having
    preformed because I got caught in traffic bringing her home from the
    vet after her appointment to have the stiches removed. 

    Deb
    

    
    Scooby removed her own stitches when we had her spayed 13 years
    ago but when we had Suki seen to, the vet cheated and used soluble
    thread for the stitches (we have never had to go back to the vet
    after a neutering for any of our cats although we did phone when
    Little One was castrated because he opened up the cuts and was bleeding
    slightly, no stitches for boy cats).

    Marion,
      It's been awhile since your base note so I'm not sure if your
    felines have ironed out their differences, but felt I should relate
    a very simular situation my s/o and I had:  We have 2 five yr. old
    Maine Coons, about 3 months ago we introduced a kitten and everything
    was fine (or so we thought). Then for no apparent reason the 2 older
    cats started picking on the kitten, to the point where the kitten
    was afraid to come out into the open. our solution...We had both
    of the Maine Coons boarded at the vets for two days, the kitten
    relaxed with the cats gone, and when our Maine Coons came home they
    no longer thought they had absolute rule over the kitten. We havent
    had a problem since.  
    
    
    Hope this helps.  Mike.
    
    

    .19 reminds me of a similar situation with Holly.  In early days,
    when she has being a real terror, I discovered that closing her
    out of the room that Sweetie and I were in would instantly turn
    her into an angel;  she really needs company and "exile" was apparently
    a major punishment.  A few times and good manners began to reign.
    

So far, so good.  The kittys have all had the run of the house (except for 
the "cat free" rooms).  At first the battles were frequent, but it seems that
the "paw to paw combat" has slowed down quite a bit.  There is still, however,
a bit of a problem.  Justa and Puppy are still scrapping.  Justa has found that
she can stay at the end of the hall that leads to the bedrooms.  Since the
bedrooms are the "designated no-cat areas", the doors are closed so the hall
dead ends there.  It seems she can defend this bit of "turf" without much of a
problem.  Also she can get a drink from her "watering hole", since the guest
bathroom is also off that hallway.  The problem?  I had to throw away the throw
rug from the guest bathroom this morning.  Justa has been using it as a litter
box.  It seems that she is so intimidated by Puppy that she will not "run the
gauntlet" to the litter box.

Sooooooooo

Here's what I propose to do.  I will keep Justa and Puppy together in the small 
lavatory for the weekend.  There is literally no place were Justa can hide from
Puppy.  They will have food, water, a litter box, and frequent visits and 
cuddles from Gerry and me.  They just have to get used to the fact that they 
live in the same house and therefore must be able to share space!  

What d'ya think?  Will it work?  Is it too cruel?  I must admit it is drastic,
but I don't think they will hurt each other (I'll clip nails once more just to
be sure).  They _must_ learn to get along!

Marion

Marion,

it sounds like the only option left.  I'm guessing the trip to the
vet was traumatic to Justa and that, combined with the sudden hostility of
the other cats when she "changed" and came into heat, has really given
her a drop in self-confidence.  If she has to defend herself, she will
discover she can and, hopefully, she will once again select her position
in the pecking order of the family.  Right now, it sounds as if she
does not feel a part of the family - the outsider - and that attitude
is telegraphed to the rest of the family...resulting in her being treated
as the outsider.

Make sure Justa gets to the litter tray, food, and water with you watching
so Puppy knows Justa's smell is DESIRED by the top cat (you) and she
has to accept that.

Again, I suggest wiping both cats down with a kitty deodorent (check with
the vet) or a diluted solution of lemon juice and water to help confuse
the body scent before the "encounter week-end".

			Keep us posted....

			      D

Well, I'm not sure how well things went over the weekend.  When I got
home on Friday, I got an extra litter box, and some food (the kind I
use as an occasional treat) and put them in the small lavatory.  I then
put the kittys in and closed the door.  Throughout the evening I heard some
fussing, but nothing serious.  I went in twice for cuddle breaks.  They
seemed OK.  They stayed there without incident until this morning.  Though
it is probably too early to tell, I'm not sure whether my plan did any good.
This morning I fed them all in the kitchen.  Justa had once again stationed
herself at the end of the hall.  Usually she will come to the kitchen to
eat without much of a problem.  It's sort of like meal time is truce time.
This morning she would not come for food.  I don't know, perhaps she wasn't
hungry.  What has happened seems a little strange.  Though Puppy doesn't
appear to be hostile towards her any more it seems that Justa is still convinced
that there is a cat out to get her like Puppy used to be.  This morning when I
left, she was sitting at the end of the hall crouched down as if she were just 
waiting to be pounced upon.  Poor baby!  Perhaps it'll just take a bit more
time.

Marion
                                         

    I just have to share something with you.. Pookie was also in a"snit"
    when Happy came to live with us... (right elaine, right cin..!!!!)
    anyway, after awhile of keeping them seperated and Pookies
    little TANTRUMS,and rulling out anything medically wrong,,,
    I came across a holistic type animal behaviorist.. her name
    is betty lewis, and she came down to "chat with pookie...
    and see how she felt about happy... and surprisingly enough,, pookie
    told us that she did not want happy to go(thank goodness)
    now that she was here.. ok fine you can stay.. meowr, and 
    that she did not want happy in the bedroom sleeping with us,
    ad she did not have a problem with me giving happy attention
    as long as she got hers first.. and  betty also told me that 
    even though I had kept talking to pookie about maybe getting
    a new buddy/ friend companion.. she thought I MEANT
    ahuman one.. like a nana, aunt laura type someone
    to stay and play with her while I was at  work.. betty
    also told me that pookie displays "human type tendencies"
    she doesnot fully realize she is a c-a-t...so communicating
    with her was very easy.....!!!!betty asked her to accept
    happy  to make mummy feel beeter.. she said she had not ruled
    that possibilty out, but she was stil thinkng about it..!!!!!
    and that she was really really enjoying.. the trips to
    see dr eric, mummy giving her all that special attention
    etc... so betty did a real good job we have started pookie
    on regimen of natural elixirs  discovered by dr baucis, they
    are tasteless and can be put in her food, water or given orally..
    and mummy is is using them too.. and of course little happy
    is just fine, she is very accepting of the sitiuation.. she just
    wants to play with pookie preferably... but I will do until
    pookie is ready to play with her..  if you would like more
    info  you may be contact me offline / aimhi::mccurdy
    regards
    kate

    Actually, I think the major problem is not Puppy being agressive.
    I think it's Justa being timid!  Justa is just about as big as Puppy,
    and probably could give her a run for her money.  When Puppy starts
    up with her, however, all Justa does is roll on her side and assumes
    the "submissive" position.  In fact, all Puppy has to do is come
    _near_ justa, and Justa just rolls over.  I tried telling Justa
    to just walk up and give Puppy a cuff in the ear and she probably
    wouldn't bother her any more.  But OHHHHHhhhhh NOOOOOOoooo!  She
    wouldn't listen!
    
    Marion

It sounds like you have a traumatized cat....I suggest talking to the vet
about a mild tranquilizing pill for Justa for a few days.  This kind of
stress, whether self-induced or not, cannot be healthy for her.  I know
our Tabby, the 14 year old siamese, traumatizes easily and has a rough
time when she has to go to the vet.  When it is possible health-wise, our vet
sends her home with a mild downer in her - she sorta forgets the trauma
by the time she sobers up.  Its a lot easier on all of us, believe me!

				D

Last night when I got home, Justa had left (as my mother-in-law would put it)
"a nice little bundle" at the end of the hall for me.  She sat there next to
it looking up at me with pleading eyes.  "Pleeeeease don't haaaaate me for it
Mom, I just haaaaad to go sooooo baaaaad".  I nearly cried when I saw her.
She looked to pitiful.  She was just too frightened to go to the box.  I called
my vet (Marlboro Animal Hospital) and they gave me two references to people 
who help with "problem behaviors" (aka "kitty shrinks").  This morning Raymond 
McSoley spend an hour and a half with me and the kittys at my home.   He 
observed their behavior (Puppy even gave a nice little demonstration of "Justa 
bashing") and we talked about the beginnings of the problem.  He seems to think 
that Justa coming into heat, coupled with my absence for nearly three weeks was
plenty cause enough.  He agrees that, though the other kittys do display agres-
sive behavior toward her, it is only normal for them to do this if they are in 
the presence of a "phobic cat" (I can't believe they have a name for it!).
He told me to do four things:

1)  Give her very little individual attention.  Bring one of the other kittys
    over to her and pet _both_ of them at the same time.  This will mean
    that she'll have to get "social" in order to get her cuddles.

2)  Buy a whistle.  Five or six times a day go up to Justa, blow the whistle
    (softly) and give her one (just one) treat.  Eventually the other kittys
    will observe what's going on.  Before long they will all come to get a
    treat when ever I blow the whistle next to Justa.  This will 
    help Justa associate seeing the other kittys walking towards her with 
    something that is pleasant.

3)  Invent group games.  Do anything to get Justa to interact with the other
    cats in a play environment.  He said that her current reaction to the 
    other cats is stress.  Play is a stress reliever.  Even if she is 
    only slightly amused while near the other kittys, she'll experience
    less spontaneous stress when she encounters them at non-play times like
    (hopefully) on her way to the litter box.

4)  Keep a daily log of fights, "nice little bundles", and play patterns.


I am amazed at how much sense this guy makes.  He will call me in three weeks 
to see how things are going.  I am, to say the least, encouraged!  I'll keep 
you all informed.

Marion

                

Figured I'd update you on the Justa situation.

Well, it seems that the "kitty shrink", Raymond McSoley just sort of took
the money and ran.  I have tried to contact him, but all I got was his 
answering service.  He has not returned my call.  The reason I wanted to
speak with him is that the situation has not changed much.  The only thing
that has changed is that I finally broke down and put an extra litter box 
in the place where Justa was pooping on the floor, since it seems that she
insists on doing this.  Unfortunately, as a result, _all_ of the kittys have
started using this box _exclusively_.  This is the source of many a scuffle,
which has made matters worse.  Oh well.  Sometimes you _don't_ get what
you paid for.  

I WILL NOT GIVE UP!!!   That extra litter box will stay there only until
I figure out a solution.  Then you'll probably see a topic asking how to
teach the cats _not_ to go where the box used to be, but isn't any more.

Marion

    Please let Marlboro Animal Hospital know about your experience with the
    kitty shrink they recommended.  I hope they wouldn't recommend the guy
    to any others, or may be able to contact him for you to ensure a
    follow-up.  I don't know if the other recommendation from them was Dr.
    Amy Marder (they recommended her to me), but she also comes recommended
    by Tufts.  She might be worth a call if you're not turned off by the
    treatment you received from Mr. McSoley. 
    
    Hang in there!  You'll find a solution to the problem!