Conference misery::feline_v1

    Is it litter trained? (I can just picture a child's sandbox filled
    to the brim in one corner of the living room...)
    
    Seriously, I'd *love* to have a big cat, like a panther, as a pet.
    Unfortunately, everything I've ever heard says 'Nope'. They just
    don't make good pets.
    
    What (and how much) does it eat? Has it been neutered? (Imagine
    one of those suckers marking your furniture!) Claws? Teeth?
    
    Is this cat already someone's pet? Aren't there laws governing 
    'exotic' pets? Do they affect this animal?
    
    Edd
    
    

    Hi Andy,
    
            Wow that sure is something!!! I would love to see a leapord
    up close there awful big aren't they?  No I wouldn't dream of flaming
    on you.  The cat has been brought up as domesticated right?  It
    is a shame but the damage was done before you ever came into the
    picture at all.  I would think that a 3 year old domesticated animal
    could not be put back in its natural surroundings.  Well maybe it
    could but I'm sure it would take lots and lots of work and money.
    I guess the only thing left is to make sure the cat lives the rest
    of it's life in a very nice style as it was humans who put him in
    this predicament.  
    
    My questions are why is he up for adoption and free at that?  Do
    you have a good amount of knowledge to know how to care for the
    leopard?  How about laws in the area?  You wouldn't want to get
    him and become attached and then have someone tell you it was illegal.
    And what does "fairly" tame mean?  That one had me worried!!!!!!
    
    I would also think he'd always have to stay in the house...  OUt
    of curiousity......  Does he use a kitty box???  (oh my!!!!)
    What does he eat?  (another oh my!!!) My kitties sleep with me will
    he sleep with you?  O.K. that's enough of the funnies :^)))))
    
    Good luck whatever you decide to do!!!!!
    
                                                    KIM

    A leopard is not actually THAT big, nowhere near as big as a Tiger or
    Lion or that. The size is actually about that of a medium sized
    dobermann (not THAT small either!) This is not a man killer, although I
    guess it could injure a person a bit if it tried (mind you so could a
    dobermann!) 
    
    The 'fairly tame' means you can put him on a lead and take him for a
    walk, you can go into his cage. Somebody tried to pick him up last week
    and he bit them (he's not that big if you can pick him up!).  DON'T
    PANIC, this is the kind of bite you put a sticky plaster on, and its
    OK, provided you keep your tetnus upto date its no problem. 
    
    The law says if I keep the cat at home I need a local government
    licence which means that they come and inspect the cage to check the
    cat can't get out. Also if no competent person is at home the cat MUST
    be locked in the cage. Other than that its a wild animal kept as a pet,
    my responsibility. 
    
    As for food, a mixture of meat, on the bone, biscuits, just like any
    cat, just LOTS of it!
    
    I don't know that much about big cats, but I hope to know a lot more
    soon! I'll keep you posted. MEanwhile any help form the noters out
    there is greatly welcome! 
    
    Andy.

    It seems to me that I've seen some articles in either Cats or Cat
    Fancy the past few years about keeping "big" cats. I don't remember
    what they said except that you had to feed them a lot of meat, they
    needed room to run, and that they tended to be one or two person
    animals (i.e., good with their family but leary of strangers).
    
    Does anyone else remember reading these articles?
    
    Deb (human of C.L. Panther)

    I would call the San Diego Zoo (which has a primo reputation). 
    They might be able to give you some advice.  Another possibility
    is Marine World - Africa U.S.A., which is currently in Vallejo,
    Calif. (I think -- if you can't get in contact with them, let me know
    and I'll dig up their address).  They raise animals by hand, including
    snow leopards.  Actually, I'd call them before the Zoo, because
    they're more likely to know what you're up against.
    
    I'm wondering, wouldn't a leopard need access to a large outdoor
    area to run in?
    

    re .2  A 'domesticated' wild animal is a misnomer.  Don't be
    fooled, the wild instincts remain.
    
    There's a vet who wrote some good books.  His name is Dr. Corey
    Foster.  I have one of his books called "I Never Met an Animal I
    Didn't Like".  He operated a wildlife animal hospital in Wisconsin
    (I think).  He has some thoughts on the keeping of wild animals
    as pets.   I will get the book out tonight and post an excerpt
    from that.
    
    Donna

    I've read a great deal about big cats and once had occasion to play
    with a half-grown Bengal tiger (maybe about 250 lbs).  FWIW, the
    Bengal tiger tongue's no rougher than a housekitty; just bigger.
    
    On big cats in general:
    
    The best "biggie" is the cheetah, which tames easily and is more
    or less canine (in fact, despite it's a cat, it catches _canine_
    distemper rather than feline).  They run very fast (the fastest
    land animal) and are built like greyhounds, only more so.  However,
    their bones are rather brittle, so one must take care with 'em.
    
    The next best is the African lion.  A problem with lions, though,
    is that while they are litter-trainable for defecation, it't _very_
    difficult to train them for urination: in the wild, they urinate
    where they sleep and roll in it; not that they're gross, but because
    the urine acts as somewhat of a bug repellant.  However, if you
    persist, they _can_ be trained.  They eat irregularly and should
    fast for at least one day out of the week to keep their digestive
    process from going out of kilter.  They are playful and very powerful;
    a full-grown male can weigh upwards of 500 pounds, and that's a
    lot of pussycat!  They integrate well because they're gregarious
    and treat their humans as members of their pride.
    
    Tigers have been tamed and make moderately successful housepets.
    They are larger and stronger than lions and do not form prides.
    A Siberian tiger can weigh in the neighborhood of half a ton; the
    Bengals are more colorful, but significantly smaller.
    
    Leopards and panthers (which are all-black leopards; if the light
    strikes then right, you can make out the spots) are chancy pets.
    They are _very_ high strung.  If something sets them off, they can
    be somewhat destructive (consider a tempremental Siamese cat raised
    to the nth degree).  Leopards are among the few animalds who hunt
    for pleasure as well as for food.
    
    Mountain lions make better pets than leopards.  They tend to be
    very shy, though.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    On a slightly lateral track, do you have a cat (i.e. Felis cattus)?
    I imagine you would have to be VERY careful about keeping the cat
    or any other small pets out o the leopard's way.

    Not only would I worry about other animals in the household, I would
    also worry about the other members of my family.  You might be able
    to handle a leopard, but what about them.  Do you have the room
    for the animal to get plenty of exercise?  I know that if my animals
    don't get exercise, they get destructive.
    
    Sandi (Lightning's & DejaVu's Mom)  Ok Holly ???
    

    Envy, envy, envy... I would dearly love to be able to stroke a big
    cat someday (despite whats-her-name's problems - Juliet Prowse?
    The lady who decided to get back in the cage with the same leopard
    that bit her once before, and lo! it bit her again!). However, I,
    too, have heard that even the most loving, hand-raised animal may
    revert unexpectedly. There *is* a difference between domestic and
    wild. 
    
    I read a book some time ago about some people who raised a leopard
    while living in <insert foreign country where leopards live: Africa
    somewhere, I assume>. They raised her from a tiny cub, and she was
    a loving house pet, but when they were transferred back home and
    found out that they wouldn't be able to keep her unless she was
    caged (or maybe keep her at all), they decided to retrain her for
    the wild. The process of weaning an animal away from human affection
    is acutely painful (to the humans) and probably painful and confusing
    to the animal; check out the "Born Free" sagas as well.

    But it would be so *neat* to have a leopard in the house...

    These days, though, your insurance would probably skyrocket. Heck,
    some burglar might break in, get mauled by your "attack leopard,"
    and sue the pants off of you.

    Actually, I've no idea what to advise, other than to check *all*
    the ramifications as carefully as you can. (If you do take it, can
    we come over and visit???)

    -b

    Re: the size of the beast.
    
    I've read that pound for pound the leopard is one of the most powerful
    cats alive.  The old stories by Frank Buck (Bring 'em Back Alive
    fame) have some interesting descriptions of a leopard's sheer power
    and strength.  Routinely they hang their prey in a tree to keep
    it out of the reach of hyenas and jackals.  They can climb a tree
    with half an antelope or wildbeest.
    
    Frank

    Re .11 (Frank):
    
    This is true.  A leopard is incredibly powerful.  They also put
    them in trees to discourage lions from stealing them (yes, lions
    can climb trees, but leopards can climb further out on a limb);
    occasionally, a hungry lion will steal from a leopard if he or she
    finds one with prey.
    
    The "wild beast turning" business is a myth.  It isn't that they
    "turn"; it's that we don't fully underastand their thought processes
    and reflexes.  For instance: a lion or tiger may say "hello" by
    grabbing a bit of one's anatomy in their mouths (the tiger I played
    with grabbed my ankle [the keeper went white, but I said, "I know
    what he's doing," and everybody relaxed]).  The natural reaction
    is to _pull away, fast_!  When a big cat thinks he or she is losing
    something, the cat clamps down, hard.  So, many "bites" are the
    result of _the person_ panicking, not an attack by the cat.  Similarly,
    to quote George Adamson, "When playing with lions, never run away."
    Running away triggers the reflex to chase and pounce.  If you _walk_
    slowly away from them, no problem.
    
    Leopards are _so_ high strung, though, that I'd never chance it.
    I might with a lion, though.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr. 

I'm from New Mexico - I've been around big cats - they will never be pets..
They are wild and will always be wild - recognize that and respect it  - good luck!

    
    

    When I lived in Alaska, a lynx adopted me.  Obviously she was an
    outdoor kitty [not terribly 'big'].  She brought me trophies.  She
    took me for walks -- this was one of her favourite pastimes, showing
    up at 5 a.m. and growling until I showed up ready for a hike.  I
    think she was completely besotted with my largest Tom-cat is what
    I think, because she certainly behaved like a slut whenever she
    saw him.  She was by no means a pet, but she was quite friendly on her
    own terms and showed up the first two summers I lived there, but
    not the third.  I missed being her summer-time pet.
    
    As has been said in previous responses, animals 'close to the wild'
    are deserving of respect.  But they can be special friends.
    
    [My mother once made the comment that animals with canines bigger
    than your little finger were not meant to be cuddled...]
    
      Annie

    You might want to pick up a copy of the book "The Cats of Shambala"
    by Tippi Hedren.  She's an actress who decided that she wanted to
    make a film (comedy) that included the 'big cats'.  The book describes
    everything they went through to build a 'jungle' for all the animals
    they'd need for the film as well as the 'close calls' and time,
    money and effort she put in for the animals.
    
    She bought many acres of land out west and built pens, props, etc.
    everything they'd need for the film and for the upkeep of the cats.
    She had lions, tigers, elephants, leopards, cheetas, etc.  They
    even successfully mated a lion and tiger and got a tigon cub!
    
    I think you will be able to make up your mind after reading this
    book.  I was able to find it at my local library - and it makes
    great reading (incl. photos) for anyone who's interested in the
    big cats.
    
    Good luck.

>    A leopard is not actually THAT big, nowhere near as big as a Tiger or
>    Lion or that. The size is actually about that of a medium sized
>    dobermann (not THAT small either!) 

This is true of the Leopard Cat, but not all others in the leopard "family".
This might also explain some noters' confusion:  The Leopard Cat is one of the 
smaller cats, but not all leopards are as small.


Have you been in further contact with the owner?  What is its actual size and 
weight?

Many years ago I was interested in getting one of these spotted wonders.  The
ones I saw were about double the size of a domestic feline, about 3 feet in
length (excluding tail), *much* smaller than the larger cats.  The markings
were incredible and they had very large ears with long tuffs.  The "meow" was
deep like its larger cousins.  I seemed to recall that they were could be
"water" trained (as opposed to litter) and that an adapter could be placed on
top of a toilet.  They ate *alot* of meat and could easier be led on a leash.

Well I never pursued this further, except that this was probably one of the 
many reasons that led us to breed and show Egyptian Maus, the closest-looking 
domestic breed to larger spotted cats.

Re Andy:  You may be interested in an alternative cat:  The Ocecat, a cross 
between an Ocelot and a domestic shorthair.  They're a little smaller and
leaner than the leopard cat, and (supposedly) less wild (read more
predictable).  I don't know much more about them. 

re: Ocicats

If anyone wants to more about Ocicats, there's a breeder reasonably close 
by:

	CHINACAT Cattery -- Siamese, Orientals, Colorpoints, & Ocicats
	Werner "Doc" and Barbara "Bobbi" Beyer
	Box 188
	Hudson, NH  03051
	603-882-8814

They are very nice people, and go to many of the local shows.

Ray

re: myself.

I was a little fuzzy about Ocicats so a called a few people.  It seems I have 
outdated myself and need to print a retraction.

About 15 years ago, several people were involved in a program to produce a
domestic cat that had the beautiful pattern and features of a wild cat.  They 
were crossing Ocelots with domestic shorthairs and used the term "Ocecats". 

When the Ocicat emerged a couple of years ago, I thought it was from this 
program (without giving it a 2nd thought).  It is NOT.  I have been told that
the "new" Ocicat was produced by a controlled hybrid program consisting of
Abyssinians, Siamese, and American SH.  This is similar to the way Orientals 
were produced from Siamese and ASH.

The breeders have strongly denied that they have interbred any wild cat.

Sorry about the false info earlier.  I hope I've set it straight.

--------------------------------

I recent "semi-wild" import from India is the Leopardite.  I don't know much
more about it. 

Personally, I'd stick with a domestic cat (although I admit I'm intrigued
with the thought of having a wild cat).

 Anywhere it wants to ;-)
    
       I hope you don't have a waterbed!
    
    Rita_who_is_going_home_to_repair_the_pinprick_hole_inflicted_by_the
    _tiny_aby_which_caused_mom_to_wake_up_wet_this_morning!
    
    

    Both the law and common sense agree on this one: it must sleep in a
    locked cage from which it cannot escape, unless the person who holds
    the licence to keep the animal is personally present (and presumably
    awake!)
    
    Seems like it won't be possible anyhow. The local council say they
    will issue a licence at their discression, which may take 3-6 months
    or longer. It's a case of get your licence and THEN find a cat that
    fits it!
    
    Andy.