Conference misery::feline_v1

    While I think that puppy and kitten mills are atrocious, I personally
    think that maybe Maryland has carried things a bit far by banning
    the sale of puppies and kittens. The reason that I say this is because
    I know that many pet stores will take the kittens from "unexpected"
    litters. I'd much rather see a kitten being given to a pet store
    to be sold than given to a shelter where it runs a very high risk
    of being distroyed.

    Deb

    I have never heard of puppy mills.  Could you please explain?
    
    Thanks,  Susan

    
    1) What is a puppy/kitten mill?  I have an idea but have never heard
    of one before.
    
    2) When did Maryland pass this law?  Though I've only gone back
    for vacation for the last 4 years, I don't remember noticing a lack
    of puppies and kittens in the pet stores.
    
    3) Side question:  I went into a pet store the other day with my
    SO and pointed out a puppy that looked pretty old and stated that
    if it wasn't sold soon it would probably be killed.  My SO said
    that pet stores don't kill off dogs that they are selling for profit.
    Now I would think that pet stores would not be able to sell grown dogs
    and that they would kill them after they have out grown the
    "cute puppy" stage.  Am I wrong (hope so)?

    

    Re: .3
    Sharon,
    
    A puppy/kitten mill is an operation run by an unscrupulous breeder
    for the sole purpose of making money.  These "breeders" care nothing
    for the welfare of the animals they produce and do not attempt to
    improve the breed.  Their females are constantly bred with the result
    that the kittens produced are usually undersized and prone to diseases.
    The sad part is that the animals have to have "papers" for the profit
    to be good.  The registry associations will register pedigreed animals
    but claim to have no power to prevent mills from operating.  This
    boils down to pure hypocracy since the charter of every one of the
    registries includes some statement about improving the awareness
    of and care of the animals.  Recently the CFA came under attack
    for continuing registration to a mill in Ohio.  Maybe some change
    will be seen.  If AKC and the feline registries withhold registration
    services from the mills, the profit will go down and these abominations
    will begin to disappear.  Several Breed Associations will expel
    members who sell to pet shops.
    
    Sorry to run on but it is a heated topic with me.
    
    Frank
    

    RE.3
    
    3) I think it depends on the pet store. In some cases they will
       give the animal back to the person that brought it in. In other
       cases, they will try to find it a good home (for a nominal fee
       like $5 on the part of the adopter, under the belief that someone
       willing to pay for an animal will treat it better ).  

       The groomer at the pet store that I have Pip groomed at has told
       me a lot of stories about people leaving mother cats with kittens
       on their doorsteps like the two adults and 6 babies, all in a tightly
       tied cardboard box. The found a good home for the "father",
       and kept the mother around until the babies were old enough
       to be sold. The mother was then adopted by a friend of someone
       that worked in the store. The groomer had noticed how close the
       two adults were, and what a dotting father the male was to the
       kittens. It was a shame that this family had to be broken up.
       What I don't understand is why people that will get rid of an animal
       for reproducing don't just get their pets neutered !!!!!!
    
    Deb (pet human of 6 neutered felines)

    Hmmm... We got our Himalayan, Sherlock, from a pet store.  Although
    he was 12 weeks old, he weighed only 20 ounces and looked more like
    he was 6 weeks old.  I wonder.....
    
    Ande - Sherlock and Serena' mom

    Thanks alot Frank!!!  I'm acting as a go between for my feline noters
    and would have had to really do some jumping back and forth to make
    the idea come across......  I still will write more on them as to
    what they have found there so you can get a good picture of the
    "problem" and how it affects the animals we love so much.  
    
    As I would really like to research how the pet stores in the area
    work (I wonder if they really would tell me) I'm wondering Deb which
    pet store you are talking about.  I am more specifically talking
    about Dr. Pets and that type of pet store.  I will get the info
    on when the law was passed and if try to see if anyone has any idea
    of what happens to the older dogs which I have thought of quite
    frequently.  If anyone would like to read the entries on the puppy
    mills you will need to add canine::canine to your notebook and I'll
    type in as soon as possible what number notes they are.  They can
    decsribe first hand alot better then I ever could.........
    
                                                         KIM

    Re. 7
         Notes 842, 876, and 1314.  Please be careful of note 876. 
    If you are weak of heart it may be better to skip that one.  
    
                                                                KIM

    While the fancies haven't taken effort (yet - some rules are being
    considered), several of the national breed organizations have. The
    MCBFA (Maine Coon Breeders and Fanciers Association) will not accept
    breeders who have litters registered from the same female within a
    year.  The Texas Maine Coonfederacy (almost as well recognised as the
    MCBFA) will suspend a breeder and advertisements for the same reason.
    Both of the above require membership approval to join. While nothing
    can be done (yet - we're working on it) about poor environments (too
    many litters at one time, for example) we do take a shot at the kitten
    farms.  And since many purebred kittens are sold by reference (just
    look at the number of advice seeking notes in here), word of mouth and
    education is the best way. 
    
    Back when I was living in Virginia, Dr. Pets was investigated by the
    attorney general.  Seemed that puppies they sold seldom lived even one
    year (something like an 85% mortality, if memory services correctly). 
    
    For horror stories down here, imagine reading where the humane society
    and the animal control board raided a farm to rescue 127 starving
    horses, so bad that you could literally count every rib.  The local
    vets donated time to treat them, farmers and ranchers donated food,
    and they were auctioned off with proceeds going to fund a force
    to do nothing but hunt for this type of situation. Unfortunately,
    they also found a few.
    
    Dave

    I got both of my kitties from the Doktor Pet in Shopper's World
    (Framingham, MA).  I don't know about the puppies there (I am not
    a "dog person"), but the kittens they have are not pure-bred kitties,
    and I don't know where they come from, probably people whose cats
    have a litter of kittens.  The Fickle is a large spotted cat, and
    several of her littermates were polydactyl cats (extra toes), although
    she isn't (I don't like the extra toes - not only is it hard to
    clip all those extra claws, but the kitty looks like it has snowshoes
    on!).  Nebula's mother was a seal-point Siamese, and her father
    was an "unknown"; she had a couple of black littermates, a gray
    one, and a white male (if I remember right).  Of course, I got both
    kitties more than 9 years ago, so things may have changed.  I wanted
    to get them from there rather than someone whose cat had kittens
    the owners couldn't keep because Dr. Pet gives them their shots
    and makes sure that they do not have worms or ear mites or other
    such stuff before they are sold.  They keep their kitties in a very
    big cage with several shelves, boxes, ramps, and posts for them
    to play in, and they seem to sell a lot of kitties.  As for their
    personalities, The Fickle is a large timid creature who is crazy
    about me but is afraid of strangers; Neb is more outgoing, and is
    especially fond of anyone who is allergic to cats...  They're a
    couple of good critters, and have always been in good health and
    have had very few behavior problems, and I don't see anything wrong
    with them being sold that way.  I think I paid $10 for each of them
    (I recall that they charged more for long-haired kittens than
    short-haired, though I can't imagine why they would need to), which
    is cheaper than a vet visit and shots for a new kitten gotten elsewhere
    would have been.  I bought Neb very early in the year (like February),
    and I was calling the store every week to see when that litter would
    be there and for sale (not many kittens are born during the winter,
    I guess), and I went there as soon as Neb and her littermates had
    had their shots, so I got to see the whole "family" before anyone
    else did.  I don't think that most kittens spend more than a couple
    of weeks at that store: every time I am shopping in the area, I
    drop by there to have a peek at the kitties, and there are always
    a different group of them, and many people seem to be buying kittens
    there.

    It has become quite apparent to me through this topic that there
    may be some pet stores that operate differently then others.  And
    of course that's the whole idea of and the great thing about this
    conference.  To be able to get every one's experiences and pointers
    and maybe even get educated along the way :^).
    
    I am very curious though as why we have these major differences.
    It may lie with who runs these stores.  I was under the impression
    they were a chain of stores and all had the same policies.  I'm
    starting to think otherwise.  Of course we haven't addressed the
    issue of where do the purebred puppies come from....  It may be
    one policy on kittens and another on puppies which puts us right
    back in the same dilemma.  As far as the Nashua area I have never
    ever seen anything but purebreed kittens in these pet stores in
    cages that make it very easy for little children to poke and prod
    at....  
    
    So please if anyone else has had a good or bad experience with a
    pet store let us know.  It'll certainly help to sort things out
    in the long run....  I am not one to label everyone with the same
    reputation but it still bothers me as far as where the puppies are
    coming from.....
    
                                                          KIM
    

    There is only one pet store I frequent (and with cats, reptiles,
    fish and birds at my house, I go to *alot* of pet stores) that has
    kittens.  They only have kittens, never puppies, and they don't
    always have kittens.
    
    The kittens they do have are either bred from their pair of blue
    point Siamese or are given to them by local people who have litters
    they need to find homes for.
    
    The Siamese kittens have been nice, pet-quality kittens.  It is
    fun to go in and see mom cat taking care of her kittens (both parent
    kitties live in the shop with the owners during the day, along with
    their Macaw; they don't like to leave their pets home alone).
    
    We got Basil, our tabby, from this shop (an impulse purchase; he
    looked just like my husband's now-deceased tabby).  He was in great
    shape, loving and well-cared for.  The owners had given him his
    first shots, and gave us all the information we asked for.
    
    I have no interest in encouraging kitten and puppy mills.  I do
    think it would be too bad if the suggested legislation was so strict
    as to mean that these people couldn't sell their Siamese offspring
    or the kittens brought in locally.
    
    FWIW, the shop is Fin 'N Fur in Ayer.
    
    Rita
    

The moderators of this file would like to ask that replies to this note not
name names if the reply is going to be negative about a product or a going
concern, as such a comment could implicate Digital as being a party to
libel.  Along the same lines, please do not make any negative blanket
statements about about any particular chain of stores; just because one store
in a chain is is not operating (in your opinion) ethically, that is no reason
to condemn each and every store in that chain.

If you want to express your displeasure in a reply, please phrase your note
"I know of a pet store that". If anyone is interested in details, please
communicate by email.

On the other hand, if you want to say something nice about a particular
store, feel free to name names.

Deb

                <<< YOGI::MISC$:[NOTES$LIBRARY]FELINE.NOTE;2 >>>
                               -< Meower Power >-
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Note 980.11                       TASK FORCE                            11 of 15
TPVAX1::ROBBINS                                      35 lines  22-DEC-1987 11:53
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    Re: .10
    
    Thanks alot Frank to tell you the truth that's exactly what I
    thought....  I didn't think I had a chance in **** to get any straight
    answers even if I asked innocently enough if they have something
    to hide.  What prompted me to get involved was that just this past
    week-end I was at  a local pet store I looked at the puppies 
    (no kittens) and instead of feeling like I should have....  Like
    oh how I wish I could take them home with me because of how beautiful
    they all are I found myself saying how I wish I could take them
    home to help them????  Huh??  Something isn't right....  I go to
    others and feel the same way...  So instead of standing there
    feeling the way I do and not trying at least to do a thing about
    it just fell right into line coming in Monday and seeing the note
    in Canine.  I could not get over the people that I didn't know from
    a hole in the ground around me saying to each other Ah look at that
    poor puppy he looks so sick and so hot.....  look at how that one's
    breathing so labored and hard....  If the public echos my sentiments
    then maybe it is time....
    
    As far as the task force.  The idea I mentioned is strictly that
    at this point.  Just an idea.  The task force has not got into gear
    as of yet so really there is no concrete way of doing anything.
    That's the reason for the task force to throw around different ideas
    and see which ones may work and which ones may not and then trying
    to follow some line of action.  The only reasons the pet stores
    come into play is that a "mill" is unfortunately a source for them.
    The reasoning is if their is no profit or customer for a "mill"
    then why should the "mill" exist.  Like I said just an idea......
    Thanks alot Frank you sound like you are a very good source for
    info on this subject....  Glad you jumped on in.....
    
                                                            KIM
    

    I passed by a pet store last week and a terrifed Collie puppy was
    being held by one of the store employees.  I asked her what was
    wrong and she said, "Oh, there always like this when we get them
    from the warehouse."  "THE WAREHOUSE!" I said. So, I guess I know
    what a puppy mill is,  and Kim, when you decide what actions you're
    going to take let me know.  I am willing to help.
    
    Pam

    The Humane Society of the United States is very active
    in puppy/kitten mill investigation and in lobbying for
    legislative action.  I believe it would make sense to
    try and coordinate your efforts with this large organ-
    ization.  Perhaps you could become a Massachusetts
    chapter of sorts.  I have lots of information on their
    activities if you're interested.
    
    Donna

    This is just "2nd hand information", but:
    
    I met one of the owners of the Doctor Pet Center (this particular
    one is in Nashua). We got to talking about his business, and the
    Doctor "chain" isn't really a chain, but a franchise operation where
    each store is owned individually. This same guy owns a couple of
    Video-Biz stores and a couple of other franchises.
    
    He gave the impression that he was at liberty to buy from where
    he wants to a certain extent. He had two dogs (dobermans) from
    a breeder in Nashua. unsure where he got his cats. The books and
    supplies should be bought from the central owners (again, with some
    discretion of the owner).
    
    It sounds like how he runs his business in his case is up to him and
    not the "company". Others could be different. It would be easy to
    find out how they operate: just get a group together and talk to
    the people doing the franchising about setting one up, and they'll
    practically give you an outline of how they do business. How do
    you feel about being a "spy"?
    
    just raving again,
    bryan