Conference misery::feline_v1

    Thus far I am more familiar with policies about what happens when
    a purchased kitten gets sick and dies:  there is a *great* deal
    of variability in what different breeders do.  Of the many breeders
    I spoke with about this, all had what seemed to be reasonable
    policies, ranging from reduced rate for new kitten to free new
    kitten to refund option.  Only one breeder (the one I had bought
    little Natalia from, unfortunately) refuses to take *any*
    responsibility for anything that happens after 24 hours -- hardly
    enough time to get to a vet if you pickup on a weekend!  (I've
    discussed this in an earlier note and won't repeat the details.)
    
    Now I am becoming familiar with some breeders policies about
    what is promised for the stud fee.  Again there are various policies,
    and most of them seem quite reasonable.  
    
    Cin, I personally think your offer of another stud service at no
    charge is quite very reasonable, especially if the buyer had
    already understood the agreement about two live kittens, etc.
    Having all kittens die so soon is tragic, and you have offered to
    make up the service to her.  As for returning the money, I haven't
    yet found that to be a common agreement, but if there are no live
    kittens after a second try, then maybe that issue would be worth
    considering (from an ethical perspective, not legal, because you
    have already offered at least what you had promised to provide,
    it seems).
    
    As someone who has been on the "down" side of a sad situation, what
    most upset me was that the breeder made absolutely NO attempt to
    come to any kind of agreement or even discussion:  she even refused
    to call me when another litter was expected -- she said I would
    have to keep calling her every week or two.  I am sure that I would
    have felt much better (about my loss AND especially about her) if
    she had appeared to understand that there had been a very unfortunate
    experience and had a discussion about how she might be of help or
    support.  For example, had she offered me even a modest discount
    (e.g., pet quality fee instead of show quality or whatever...) I
    would not have been so angry in addition to so sad.
    
    I wish most breeders were as concerned and willing to accomodate
    as you seem to be.
    
    Good luck!
    
    	Penelope

    Did the queen belong to another breeder that you know well?
    
    Was an autopsy performed on the deceased kittens?
    
    Maybe you could work out a deal with the breeder an give her a kitten
    from your breeding (you would have to work out the relative worth
    between you.)  
    
    The main problem here (as I see it) is that the owner of the queen
    may not want to breed her again.  This leaves you with a liability
    that you want to take care of.  A few breeders that I know only
    offer to rebreed the cat.  They do not refund the stud fee.
    If the owner feels it would be best not to rebreed the cat then she/he
    accepts the loss of the stud fees.
    
    If the kitten idea is not amicable and the owner doesn't want to
    rebreed the female, and you still want to clear this up, then maybe
    you could refund half the stud fee.  There is no reason for you
    to feel like you have to absorb the total loss yourself.  We all
    know that breeding is not a sure thing and that sometimes problems
    may occur.  You deserve at least half the stud fee for your time
    and effort.  Also - you are the one that has to deal with housing
    a whole male.  The time involved in taking care of a visiting queen,
    feeding her, cleaning up after her, witnessing the breeding, making
    sure she is pregnant and then getting her back to her owner.  Sometimes
    queens in heat can be less than pleasant to have around, calling
    til all hours of the night, marking their territory etc.
    
    My suggestions are 1)rebreed her after a thorough vet exam 2)refund
    half the stud fee 3)offer her a replacement kitten from your breeding
    of equal value to the stud fee.
    
    Jo Ann

Fire is a proven stud.  The problem is most likely with the female.

Having said that, I would:

1.	*Not* refund the stud fee.

2.	Offer a free rebreeding.  If the owner doesn't want to breed the
	same queen, I'd let her breed another of her queens (if she has
	another.  I wouldn't let her transfer this to some other owner, 
	though).  I'd even give her up to probably a year to do it.

Of course, every situation is different.  I'm sure you'll do the right 
thing.  You might even ask the owner what she thinks would be fair.

Ray

    In the one case that something similar to this happened to us, we
    bred the queen again.  The second breeding pointed out a genetic
    problem with the queen, almost cost her life (Crunch was in no way
    responsible for this).  We refunded half the fee, at our insistence.
    
    It is hard to know what is right.  After offering the second breeding,
    I think your contract has been fulfilled.
    
    Dave

    Thanks for all the input.....makes me feel a little better about
    my alternatives.  I have spoken with the owner of the queen, and
    she hasn't decided if she wants to re-breed the female to Fire.
    I can understand her hesitation to do so, where this particular
    female has already had 5 successful litters with other males.  I
    hadn't thought about offering to breed another of her females instead.
    That was a good idea.
    
    I want to be as fair as possible, to both of us.  I very rarely
    do stud service, this is only the 2nd time I've done stud service
    with Fire and wasn't sure what other breeders do on occasions where
    things don't work out exactly as planned.  
    
    Again, this notes file has been of great assistance.
    
    purrs
    cin
    
    ps...I'll let you know the outcome as soon as I know.
    
    

    I know this is a little late, Cin, but thought I'd put in my 2 cents
    worth.....
    	I don't know of ANYONE who gives stud fee refunds.  Most people
    will, however allow a re-breeding, or a breeding to a different
    female.  The other thing that some people allow is to credit the
    stud fee towards a kitten purchase.  In one case, I had paid a stud
    fee, and could not get the cat bred (when not in my house), so instead
    of having to do the stud service, I was allowed to lease the stud's
    sister to breed to my male.  I haven't done it yet, but the offer
    still stands, and I may do it some day....  In the meantime, I don't
    have the money, and I think that's o.k.  It's definately the standard.
    	In your case, it's unclear whether you're obligated to do anything
    further.  My tendency, though is to agree with your feelings, and
    do what is most fair to the person spending the money.  There are
    literally hundreds of reasons why a cat may lose a litter, most
    of which have nothing to do with the sire, but you never know.....
    Could just be a fluke - genetic incompatibility, or maybe the mom
    had a virus during a critical stage of pregnancy.
    I had a female lose a litter last year (one of my best kittens EVER
    was in it!) and she's had 4 healthy litters out of five (one since
    the one last year).  Who knows?????  
    	Hope things go o.k.
    
    Molly