Conference misery::feline_v1

    I believe Ive talked about this several times in this notes file
    before.  All five of my cats are felv vacinated.  None of them have
    any problems.  I am very happy with it and my vet gave me good rates.
    I get cats magazine and have not seen the article.  If there are
    sterility problems I wouldn't notice because there all fixed.
    Some are purebreeds some are mixed.  If you have a cat you use as
    a pet I suggest it be vacinated.  If you breed cats you can look
    at it this way, no one will want to buy a kitten with felv anyway
    so you might as well get the vacine.  I suspect that the higher
    risk is in the possibility that your cat/cats may get felv if they
    are not vacinated. 
    
    

    I entered a similar story in a previuos felv topic about the breeder
    of my female having problems with her breeding females after the
    vaccine was administered.  I was told not to jump to any conclusions
    about the vaccine, but here is my friend's story...
    
    After having a closed cattery for years, she decided to provide
    stud service to outside females.  She had all of her cats felv 
    vaccinated, one stud male and 4 breeding females.  All four of the
    females had produced healthy litters in the past.  The next breeding
    following the shot, all four females became pregnant.  This breeder
    likes to breed her females close together time wise so they can
    help each other raise kittens in case there is a problem.
    
    None of the four females produced a live kitten.  My friend attributes
    this to the vaccine.  Two of her females had to be spayed since
    she bred them again, and again they were unable to produce a litter
    of kittens (reabsorption).
    
    I am in the process of trying to decide whether or not to vaccinate
    Joui.  My other cats are vaccinated but I won't be using them for
    breeding purposes.  Joui is six months now so if I am going to do
    it, I want to do it early on so as to not interfere with her ability
    to have kittens later.
    
    Jo
    

    Cin,
    
    Please post the article. I think that all of us would be interested
    in reading this. I think that it is very important for all cat owners,
    breeders and non-breeders to be as knowlegable about this disease
    as possible.
    
    Deb

    
    
    A friend of mine called last night to tell me that she had to put
    her favorite male cat Asma to sleep yesterday.  He had Felv.  Last
    year he had tested negative and had all of the vaccine shots.
    From what the vet had told her, there is no guarantee that the testing 
    and the shots will prevent the disease.  I feel terrible for her.
    
    This is greatly concerning me because I have a 14 year old female
    (Cleo) who tested positive, and I also lost a very special cat to this
    disease a year ago.  I have 6 other cats.  Though I kept them 
    separate from Cleo until after they were tested and vaccinated,
    they had been exposed before any of this came to light.  And they
    have since mixed closely with Cleo.  I thought the vaccinations
    would protect them...now I don't know.
    
    Carole
    

    THIS IS A COPY OF THE EXACT ARTICLE FROM CATS MAGAZINE, REPRINTED
    WITHOUT PERMISSION....
    
    THE FORUM
    
    BREEDERS QUESTION "THE VACCINE"
    
    I am writing you concerning Norden's Lukocell vaccine.  I have been
    following the articles in THE FORUM.  I thought some of your readers
    may be interested in my experience with the vaccine as stated in
    the enclosed letter.  A copy of the enclosed letter was sent to
    Norden Laboratories.  I am awaiting their response.
    
                  -Letter dated 1/7/87-
    
    Barry Wood, Product Manager,
    Small Animal Biologicals,
    Norden Laboratories, Inc.
    601 West Cornhusker, Lincoln, NE  68501
    
    I am writing you concerning the Norden Leukocell vaccine.
    
    I breed and show Persian cats.  I have never had a positive FeLV
    in my cattery.  I heard about Norden's Leukocell vaccine and it
    sounded like an excellent way to protect my cats.
    
    I discovered my error three months after I had all my cats vaccinated
    with the series of three.
    
    A Calico was bred eighteen days after her last vaccination.  She
    produced two mummified kittens and one live kitten with a defective
    hip.  She had another litter six months later.  There was one mummified
    kitten and three small kittens.  The kittens were small because
    they arrived four to five days early.  
    
    A second female expelled a glob of blood when she was fifty-one
    days pregnant.  A week later she had a mummified kitten.
    
    A third female had three normal litters before she was vaccinated.
     She was bred six months after her last vaccination.  The veterinarian
    verified that she was pregnant at three weeks and that she was not
    pregnant at six weeks.  The veterinarian said she had reabsorbed
    the kittens.
    
    Other breeders in this area have been having the same kind of problems.
    
    Please ask your readers to write to me about any changes noticed
    in cats vaccinated with the Feline Leukemia Virus vaccine.  
    
    Some breeders in my area are having fertility problems after
    vaccination, including : dwarfism, retardation, failure to cycle
    and failure to conceive.  
    
    Include:
    Number of vaccinations given
    Age of cats at time of vaccination
    Length of time between vaccination and rebreeding
    Any change in season pattern, litter size, or health
    Size of kittens, and any unusual problems either in appearance or
    development
    
    Most of the material published about the vaccine is based on shelter
    animals.  My intent is to compile a report to be published in CAT
    WORLD based on breeding colonies, as opposed to non-breeding animals.
    
    Are these problems linked to the vaccine?  Vets say that's hogwasy!!
    
    Please write!!  Letters will be kept confidential upon request.
     
    
    My address is:
    
    Connie Campbell
    1917 South Kimbrough
    Springfield MO 65807
    
    
    _____________________________________________________________
    
    end of article
    
    

    I personally haven't had my cats vaccinated, and I don't think that
    whether my breeding cats have been vaccinated or not will make a
    difference in whether or not I can sell kittens.  I believe that
    as long as the adults have been tested within a reasonable time
    before breeding (1-2 months) that I am fairly safe in selling FeLV
    Negative kittens.  
    
    I think I will continue to hold off on vaccinating my breeding adults
    until more testing and documentation is available.  
    
    A personal experience....this fall I bred a female with Fire who
    had had 5 successful litters previous.  Always the same number of
    kittens, never a kitten death.  She went through the Leukocell series
    a couple of months before the breeding to Fire.  She produced 4
    kittens, 1 malformed that died immediately, two extremely small
    kittens, and 1 oversized kitten.  The 3 kittens that did not die
    immediately did die within the week, none of the 3 seemed to grow
    after birth.  
    
    This may be a coinsidence, but who knows.....
    
    I think I'll wait....
    
    Any other personal experiences, good or bad??
    
    purrs
    cin
    
    As far as non-breeding cats....I'ld recommend the vaccine
    wholeheartedly!
    

    I don't have any experience with FELV or breeding cats - just
    wanted to relay what my Vet said.
    I expressed an interest in having the vaccine.  Vet said that if
    my kitties were indoor only, and would not have contact with
    other cats then she recommend NOT have the vaccine.  Also advised
    against having the rabies shots also - for the same reasons.
    (Note: about the rabies - she checked to make sure I didn't have
    any bats.  So far New England only has rabies in bats - the mice,
    rat, and squirrel population doesn't seem to have it.)
    
    Sally

Watch out for bats that get into your house.  One got into our basement 
somehow and Izzy killed it.  A very nervous 2 weeks while we waited for 
rabies symptoms to show up.  (They didn't)  Then both cats got their shots.

I would want to know more about the modes of transmission of FeLV before
deciding it was safe to stop the shots.  (Our cats stay indoors)

    to 495.4:
    
    All medical tests are not 100% guaranteed.  Especially on the side
    where the detection indicates that your cat does not have felv.
    Just like the pregnancy testing for women, a no verdict may mean
    that your not pregnant but may also mean that you are but its too
    early to tell.  I suspect that your cat already had the disease
    and it was too early to tell.  All the vaccinations would not have
    made it go away but it would not have hurt the cat since the vacine
    is not a small strain of the disease like some human vacinations
    are.  
    
    Too the original writer of the note:
    
    I tend to assume that I am typical and most people think the same
    way as I do.  This seems to always prove wrong.  I will not accept
    a kitten from a breeder if I can't see the certification from the
    breeder that both the mom and dad had all shots including felv.
    I am much more liberal with the pound.  Apparently other people
    don't check these things although I tried to breed a female once
    and all the stud owners I talked to insist that the queen be felv
    vaccinated.  The cat was felv negitive and vacinated but I decided
    not to breed her since I couldn't find some one to be with her during
    the day when she would be pregnant.
    
    

    I agree with you, I wouldn't purchase a kitten either if I couldn't
    see certification of the parents being FeLV negative, but I don't
    require that the kitten be tested.  
    
    It is also possible that a cat can harbor FeLV for 90 days without
    it showing up on a blood test.  For breeders, or anyone for that
    matter, it's important that if you test a cat upon coming into your
    house you should test it again 90 days later just to be sure.  This
    is the practice I use.  
    
    I also give a 30 day health guarantee with my kittens and urge the
    new owners to take the kitten to their vet within that period.
    
    purrs
    cin
    

    Re:.9
    
    You said that you would not buy a kitten from a breeder unless you
    had a certificate stating that the parents had both been felv
    vaccinated.  You also said that you are much more liberal with 
    the pound.  It seems to me that you have your priorities mixed up.
    
    Common sense tells me that a breeder who regularly tests for Felv
    in her cattery will run a much smaller risk of having cats and kittens
    contract the disease than a pound who does not test for felv and
    accepts stray kittens and cats.  In a cattery (generally) the cats
    have only limited exposure to other cats, usually only visiting
    queens who have also been tested negative.  Stray cats are exposed
    to all the other stray cats and any other cats that are outside
    and might be carrying the disease.  The risk seems much greater
    from the pound.  Am I misunderstanding your position on this?
    
    Jo Ann

    re .2
    
    Unless you get the Cats Magazine Exhibitors Edition you would not
    have seen this article.  It is in the Breeders forum section and
    is only included in Daphne Negus's Cat World.  This section of the
    magazine contains information pertinent to showing and breeding
    cats and is available for an additional charge.
    Jo Ann

    
    Why would you require that the father kitty test negative in cases
    where the breeding was done and then the mother went home.  In this
    situation, the kitten would never have had contact with the father.
    I would think the requirement would be that the mother should test
    negative AFTER the birth of the kitten.
    
    Also -  I geree with Jo Ann about the health requirements of a "pound
    cat".  The very first purebred cat I purchased was a purebreed only
    because I had other healthy cats and I felt that the health care
    recieved by a purebreed would be superior to that of unspecified
    origin.

    To  .11 and .13
    
    I 'think' what .9 was trying to say was that it's virtually impossible
    and unrealistic to expect a pound to supply you with a certificate
    or whatever, saying the parents of the cat you're about to adopt
    were Felv negative.  In this case you take your chances and have
    the cat tested yourself.
    
    It is realistic to expect that a breeder would be able to supply
    you with such information.  
    
    This is how I interpret .9 and as such, do not think her priorities
    need straightening out by anyone.
    
    Donna
    
    

    My intention was to point out that you run a much greater risk of
    having a cat from the pound test positive for felv than a cat purchased
    from a breeder.  This was brought up again in the previous reply
    "you take your chances and have the cat tested yourself."
    
    My reasoning behind my position was stated in .11.
    
    There are alot of people out there that are ready to condemn breeders
    for not vaccinating their breeding cats.  Given the limited amount
    of information available on the effects of the felv vaccine on breeding
    animals and their reproductive capabilities, I have decided NOT
    to vaccinate my breeding cats.  They are tested regularly for the
    disease and my three altered cats ARE vaccinated.  My cats are exposed
    only to each other since I am doing no stud service at this time.
    
    I was not implying that .9 should expect the pound to supply her
    with felv certificates for parents of animals she chooses from them,
    and I'm frankly confused as to how that came up.  The only way to
    obtain a felv certificate is from a vet.  Any body can take their
    cat to the vet, have it vaccinated and have the certificate issued
    for them.  Whether that cat came from the pound or a breeder doesn't
    make any difference as far as getting it a certificate.  I don't
    think it is any more realistic for a buyer of a kitten to expect
    a certificate from a breeder than it is for them to expect a
    certificate from a pound.  The breeder cannot issue the certificate
    herself.  
    
    If a buyer does not want to take responsibility for having their
    purebred kitten tested and vaccinated they have the option of not
    buying the purebred kitten.  They can always go to the pound and
    get a kitten and have it tested and vaccinated.  The big argument
    here is "but I paid $300.00 for this purebred kitten!!  I want some
    guarantees that it won't come down with felv!"  My answer is that
    if you want guarantees you are going to be disappointed.  There
    are no guarantees but there is calculated risk.  The risk of felv
    is less in a purebred cattery than at the pound.  Second of all,
    by paying $300.00 for a kitten from a breeder you are *not* making
    her rich.  That money goes to cover the expenses involved in breeding
    purebred animals. Everyone has the option of deciding where they
    will get their pets and where they will not.
    
    I guess what I really am trying to say is that if you want proof
    that the sire and dame of a litter have been *tested* negative for
    felv, that is fair and reasonable.  But when you start demanding
    that the sire and dam have certificates of vaccination for felv
    that is a whole different story.  And if you (I'm speaking in general
    terms not "you" meaning one person but people in general) want a
    kitten purchased from me to be felv *tested* that is fine and you
    will get that from me.  But...If you want me to have that kitten
    vaccinated for you, you will be disappointed once again.  You, as
    the new owner of the kitten, are responsible for that decision yourself. 
                                                
    Each of us have to decide ourselves what is best, safest and healthiest
    for our own cats.
    
    Jo Ann
    

    Donna,
    
    I agree with you. Many pound animals are either strays or "street-bred"
    and it would be nearly impossible to supply a certificate about
    the animals parents. Breeders, on the other hand, know who the kitten's
    parents are, and (I would hope) would take some precautions about
    making sure FELV or other contagious diseses don't enter the cattery.
    If I were to buy a purebred animal, I would expect this is all included
    in part of the cost of the cat. With a pound animal, which usually
    would cost a lot less than I would pay a breeder, I would pay the
    vet to perform the tests my self.
    
    Deb

    Most breeders take every precaution necessary to ensure that their
    cattery is free from contagious disease since there would be no
    cattery if all the cats became infected and died.
    
    These precautions include taking disinfectant to shows and spraying
    down the cats show cage, not letting anyone touch the cat, bringing
    the cat home and isolating it from other cats in the house for a
    few days just to be safe.  I once had to bath one of my cats in
    Betadine solution immediately after a show because of the risk of
    catching ringworm at that particular show.  Try to imagine betadine
    on a white cat!8^)  Not much fun to get out.
    
    I know that I get very defensive when discussing breeder issues
    and I hope I have not offended anyone with my opinions.  There is
    one more opinion I would like to express.  Testing for felv in a
    cattery is a common practice.  Vaccinating the kittens is not so
    common.  If a buyer wanted me to have a kitten vaccinated for them
    I would probably take it and have it done provided the buyer was
    willing to pay the $60.00 fee that my vet would charge for the
    vaccination.  All of the other vaccinations required by kittens
    in their different stages of development are already covered in
    the cost of one of my kittens.  Felv vaccine is not already included
    in the price.  There are a couple of reasons for this.  1) it is
    price prohibitive 2)I feel that it is up to each individual to decide
    whether their pet needs to have the vaccine or not depending on
    the circumstances.
    Jo Ann

    Reading back through my previous replies, I realize my choice of
    words in some places sounded more like a personal attack than an
    expression of my opinions.  This was not my intention.  I wanted
    to add my viewpoint to the discussion and was hoping that the author
    of .9 would respond to .11 where I asked if I was misinterpreting
    his/her position.
    
    I still have great concern over the unknown factors of the affect
    of the Feline Leukemia vaccine on the reproductive capabilities of
    breeding cats.  I agree that in most cases the vaccine is a very helpful
    and necessary aid in the prevention of this disease.
                     
    I believe the conversation may have gotten off track due to a 
    misunderstanding between "certification of being FeLV tested" and
    "certification of being FeLV vaccinated".
    
    In any case, I apologize if I have offended anyone.
             
   Jo Ann 

    I spoke to one of our vets last week, to express concern about the
    reproductive difficulties following FeLV vaccination.  It is always
    difficult to know from anecdotal stories what the "full pattern"
    is, so I inquired as to their experience over the past year or two
    (before that, the vaccine was neither quite so safe nor so effective,
    so I wanted the recent news).  Although they run a large cats-only
    hospital, most of their patients are not from breeders, so the numbers
    are small -- but they have not seen any problems.  The vet I spoke
    with is going to a conference in about 2-4 (?) weeks on FeLV, and
    he will make a point to ask the specialists and the vets in the
    audience about their collective experience.
    
    I will report back as soon as I have heard what he learned from
    colleagues.
    
    Meanwhile, on a related note, he had also just heard about the
    FTLV disease (NOT FeLV -- see directory for related note), and
    will try to get more information about that as well.  They (at
    the local cat hospital have not yet "seen" it, because they
    didn't even know about it until the recent article appeared.
    
    [Note to those of you who requested a copy of the Science article
    on FTLV -- I'm running behind schedule, but you should be receiving
    copies soon.  Sorry for the delay.]
    
    	Penelope

    Well, This dialogue here has been most helpful.  It is obvious that
    this can become a heated issue, probably because we all feel so
    helpless when it comes to FeLV.  
    
    I personally believe that all non-breeding cats should be vaccinated
    for FeLV.  But because of the small test group, I'm not so sure
    that's the case for breeding cats, hence my waiting.  
    
    When I sell kittens I will guarantee that the sire and dam were
    FeLV Negative when they were bred.  That's about all I can guarantee.
    I do not test kittens since their usually sold around 12 weeks and
    I feel that's just too young to take blood to do the test.  I also
    do not do FeLV Vaccinations for kittens.  
    
    What about other experiences with the FeLV Vaccine??  
    
    cin
    

    I had 4 of my breeding cats vaccinated for FeLV.  The only problem
    I had after the vaccinations was a female who subsequently produced
    only 1 kitten per litter (after having 4, and 5 in her first 2).
    I personally don't think it was due to the vaccine, because she
    also had a C-section with the litter of five.  I have heard that
    it is exetremely common for post C-section females to produce litters
    of one or two kittens.  The vaccine was given to her AFTER her large
    litter, and about 6 months before her next one.
    	I have chosen not to vaccinate my other breeding cats, because
    I don't give or get stud service, and I don't feel that in my case
    the advantages outweigh the potential risks/costs.
    
    Molly

    Sorry I wasnt able to respond earlier.  By the way I guess I wrote
    .2 and .9.
    
    Heres the answere to the pound situation.  Donna was correct.  I
    take my chances with the pound since it is nearly impossible to
    track down the cats parents.  Since the cats usually are $5.00
    Ill take the risk.  When I pay $150.00 and up for a cat I expect
    it to be healthy.  I dont expect the kittens to be vacinated but
    I do expect Mom and Dad to be.  I assumed that if the dad had FELV
    it could pass it to the kitten via breeding. 
    
    Getting a sick cat is tragic, but paying lots of money for a sick
    cat is even more tragic.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Elaine

    I personally think it's unfair to require that the Mom and Dad cats
    be vaccinated before purchasing a kitten, although I do think you
    should require they be tested negative within a reasonable amount
    of time before the breeding.  With all the controvercy over the
    FelV Vaccine, many breeders, including myself, are waiting for more
    test results before vaccinating their cats.  
    
    I test my male cat 4 times a year, and the females usually a month
    or two before a breeding.  I believe this enough assurance that
    the kittens are going to be FelV negative.  I also give a 30 day
    health guarantee, which gives the new owner plenty of time to get
    the kitten to the vet and have it tested if desired.  It is always
    a good habit, whether you get a kitten/cat from a breeder or the
    pound, to have it vet checked as soon as possible after getting
    it home.  
    
    It's the buyers perogative whether they want to buy a kitten or
    not, but, if you get a good health guarantee, and you know the parents
    have been tested negative, a vaccine (which is not a guarantee of
    FelV negative) shouldn't really be necessary.
    
    just my opinion!
    cin
    

    Should have added this to the last note, but, just a poll....
    
    Would you prefer to buy a cat from a breeder that vaccinates once
    a year, or tests regularly (just before breeding).
    
    I believe that the wait period between the vaccines equates to it
    taking almost 6 months for the vaccinations to be complete.
    
    cin
    

    I vote for "tests regularly"
    Jo Ann

    Cin and Jo Ann,
    
    My vets says that FELV incubation period is 1-2 years ie felv wont
    show up in a kitten for that long,  so the 30 day health guarantee
    means nothing.  By the way I meant 1-2 years typical it can be less
    or more.  Ive had good luck with kittens from breeders whose cats
    are FELV vacinated.  I got a persian 2.5 years ago who came from
    a healthy litter of 6 and the year before that a balinese (litter
    number unknown but there were 4 when I got her).  I think Ill stick
    to my FELV vaccination requirement.  Not to worry, I have 6 cats
    now and will not be looking for anymore (I imagine for years).
    
    Elaine

Re: .-1

	I think the reason Cin gives the 30 day guarentee is that in that 
amount of time, you can have your kitten tested to see if it has been EXPOSED 
to FeLV.  I'm quite certain that a reputable breeder would refund your money 
for a kitten which tested positive.  No one would make you wait until the 
kitten became sick. 30 days is actually a very long guarantee period.  As far 
as I know there isn't anything that takes that long to test for.  
	There are two types of FeLV tests.  One of them is called the ELIZA 
test, which can be done in the office in one day, and lets you know if the 
cat has been exposed at all.  The other test has to be sent to a lab, and 
takes a few days.  That test should be repeated after about 6 weeks, because 
it takes that long after exposure to register.  IF YOU USE THAT TEST, you may 
want to ask for an extension on the FeLV part of the health guarantee, so that 
you ca have two tests done to be sure.

	I'm glad these questions are coming up,  I think we're all 
benefitiing!

Cheers!  Molly

    One thing to mention about using the ELIZA test (1 day, in office)
    is that you can very often get false positives.  The test only
    indicates that the cat has been exposed, not that it necessarily
    has FelV.  
    
    I personally use the ELIZA test, and on new cats, repeat it one
    month after the original test.  I have never gotten a positive result
    using either test.
    
    One thing to remember, if you do get a positive on an ELIZA
    test....DON'T PANIC!!!  Repeat the test using the HARDY test, which
    is sent out and takes about a week.
    
    cin
    

    Good point, Cin.  Well taken - re ELIZA tests.
    
    They are very reliable re negeative results, and although there
    are some false positives (usually if the cat has some other sickness
    or virus going on), it's better to be able to re-test than to get
    a false negative result.  I have heard that the ELIZA test never
    gives false negatives.  So, if you get a false positive, and then
    a subsequent negative test, you can feel confident that the cat
    really IS negative for FeLV.