Conference misery::feline_v1

        I keep my two indoors almost all the time (except for supervised
        yard excursions). 
        
        There are several "outdoor" cats in the neighborhood, some of whom
        have been abandoned by their former "families".  At least one of
        these has a VERY raucous voice.  I have been thinking of capturing
        this one and turning it over to the Animal Control Officer, except
        that it is a fairly friendly cat.  Sigh.. 
        
        I think that outdoors cats belong on farms, not in urban or
        suburban areas.  Anyone who routinely lets a pet cat run free is
        asking to no longer have a cat. 
        
        Tom

    My husband and I have three cats, all of whom are "outdoor cats".
    By outdoor I mean that they are outdoors during the day, and then
    they come in when my husband and I get home from work. Hence, they
    do not howl or fight in the middle of the night and wake up either
    us or our neighbors. 
    
    As to the spraying complaint - this problem is easily avoidable
    if you have your cats neutered, which all of ours are. Hence they
    do not spray on peoples windows or anywhere else. 
    
    Now to the urinating and deficating argument - my husband and I
    have 1.7 acres of densely wooded land - our cats have plenty of
    room to roam around back there and perform their natural functions
    back there. Also, most cats are quite private about this and also
    tend to bury whatever they do so as not to leave marks for any
    predators. In general, cats are very clean about those kinds of
    things. My husband and I walk around the yard a lot, and we have
    never had any problem with stepping in anything, nor has our neighbor
    said anything to us the many times that he sees us.
    
    In general, I agree that cats should not be let out in urban areas
    where they are at risk of being hit by a car, and where they can't
    help but go on a neighbor's property since everything is so compressed.
    But when you have plenty of land, and when you only let your cats
    our during the day, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. Our
    cats love the outdoors and one of them has actually pushed a screen
    out of the window to get out. Tell him he isn't happier being outdoors!
    
    /regina

    
    
    
    
    	OH, THE FRUSTRATION OF BEING A CAT AND NOT BEING ABLE TO
    
    	SPEAK FOR YOURSELF!!!!     MEOW, MEOW......
    
    
    

    "Letting cats outside unsupervised is like signing their death 
    certificates..."

	Give us a break.  If you're working in a humane society shelter, 
you're seeing a skewed sample of cats at large.  If you were working in 
the emergency room at a city hospital, would you advocate keeping people 
inside all the time?  I've owned cats most of my life, and they've all 
been allowed to go out when they want.  They all wanted to.

	I know "letting a cat out statistically shortens its life 
expectancy" -- but letting a person out does the same.  I wouldn't stay 
in all my life...I won't ask my cat to.

	I know "letting a cat out will cause an increase in vet bills"  
-- but that's just part of the cost of having a cat.  It doesn't "cost 
more" it just costs what it costs.

	I know that letting the cat out means that I have to go out in 
the middle of the night and pull it out of a confrontation with some 
other cat.  I know that letting a cat out means that I might have to 
bear the sad news of its death or the uncertainty of it just not coming 
back.  It's part of living with a cat.  It's part of living with another 
human being.  It's life.

	This file always breaks down into a difference of philosophy. I 
believe when I "own" a cat, I have agreed to participate in its life.  
To enjoy and appreciate a unique creature.  I don't think that I have to 
right to control its life to the point where I impose my will and values 
on it.  Cats have been around as long as people have, and they seem to 
stay alive as a class without our help.  If you want to keep your cat 
inside so that it'll be available for your pleasure, then fine....do it.
In my world view, you are cruel, selfish and unnatural.  In your world
view, I must seem the same.  We are neither of us wrong in our choices. 
We are just different.  Allow for difference. 

					>>>==>PStJTT

	BRAVO!!! Couldn't have said it better myself !!

	It comes down to a matter of personal choice, although each side can
produce statistics and other evidence to support their view. I will always
recommend to a friend to let their cat outdoors, that's the way I was raised
(or rather how my family's cats were raised) and I've justified it to myself.
I view cats as ideally suited for the harshness of the outdoors and they also
seem to enjoy it immensely. A previous cat of mine was hit by a car (he snuck
out at night), and though mournful of his death I still let my other cats out.
I don't think I'm sentencing my cats to death when I let them out in the
morning, but I realize that they are more susceptible to disease and death
than if I kept them indoors. I also recognize that they are better off with me
as their master than feral. 

	I disagree that keeping the cats in at night "makes no difference". 
At night cat's are even more prone to get hit by cars (lack of visibility) or 
attacked by predators - since all the predators that could chow a cat in N.H. 
are mostly nocturnal (i.e. Bobcat, fox).

	So as in most controversies this one has no correct answer. So I hope 
all you "indoor catters" out there can appreciate that I really do care about 
my cats and feel that I am doing what is in their best interest (as I see it). 
I also appreciate the fact that you (indoor catters that is) love your cats 
and are doing what you think is best. 

/harry

ps. Bet ya anyone of my cats could take an indoor cat in a cat fight!!!

    
    "We (humankind) have domesticated the cat to a point where it cannot
    survive on its own - we therefore have chosen to accept the
    responsibility to care for and protect them."

That'll be news for a lot of cats.  I've heard the Maine Coon is the 
descendant of cats run wild.  I've also known a number of cats living 
wild in NH.  They seem to do well enough without us.  They don't look as 
good as the cats I've kept as pets, but they don't look worse than any 
other wild animal.  I've also known housecats that have hit the road for 
one reason or another and done well enough without people, so I won't
buy that cats raised in the wild have held some survival instincts that
housecats have had bred out. 

If you keep your cat indoors, it's an active choice that you have made. 
I can't say if you're right or wrong, but you can't capture the moral 
high-ground by telling me that you're taking up mankind's burden of 
caring for Our Dumb Chums.  
					>>>==>PStJTT

Your cats may have FELV, and should not be exposed to other animals.  (Like
mine.) 

You may live in a high risk neighborhood.  (Route 290 passes within 200 yards
of my house. There is also a hole in the fence around the highway.)
                                                                   
Your cats may bother your neighbors.  (I've never had that problem.)

You may be constitutionally unable to handle the little presents your mouser
brings home.  (I consider it a present from a friend, myself.  Since I've had
to keep my cats indoors, my yard has been infested with moles. That was never
a problem before.) 
                                                                        
You may be unable to handle the emotional trauma if one of your cats dies
or is injured.  (A serious problem for any cat lover.)


All I know is that all the outdoor cats I have had have seemed much happier
than the indoor cats I have had.  If not for the first two reasons above,
I would let my indoor cats out, too.  I'd trade off my emotional security
for my perception of happier pets.  (Who knows if they really ARE happier?)

If you want to keep you pets indoors, please do.  If you have an environmental
or medical reason for it, that's fine.  But if it's a matter of religion or
personal philosophy, simply state that fact without being judgemental,
please.  
                                                            
The only absolute certain way to be wrong in a philosphical or moral argument
is to INSIST that you are right.

- Chris

    The state in which a cat is "happier" in is irrelevant.  A child
    may be happier eating candy all day long and not going to school,
    but that doesn't mean that that is good for the child.
    
    It is clear that indoor cats live longer (statistically) than do
    outdoor cats.  The question is, what is the cost of that benefit?  If
    the cost is a depressed cat, then the benefit isn't worth it.  But if
    the cat pays with a LITTLE bit of happiness and gets n years of
    additional life and x less injuries, then great. 
    
    Reading the outdoor-cat replys, I yearn for a rendition of the
    "Bonanza" theme.  You outdoor-types really get into the notion of Live
    Free Or Die.  What about the option of your cat being "98% happy" or
    "95% happy" instead of 100%, and in turn getting 5 - 10 more years of
    life?? 

    Cats are very adaptable.  My cats are indoor cats and they love it.
    They get outside in the summer every now and then for a treat (Trantor,
    King of all He Surveys, loves to play "fetch the twig" and chase
    rocks.).  I reject the notion that they are "unhappy".  They have
    adapted to it.  Besides, they have plenty of windows to sit in and they
    have plenty of space to run inside.  They are very content, and they
    will live longer than your cats. 
    
    Are we all unhappy because we can't fly to Mars?  No.  And it would
    be wrong for someone in the year 3000 to say, gee, those 20th century
    people must have been UNHAPPY because they couldn't fly to Mars.
    
    jdr

    
    p.s. Re: the story about how cute it was for your cat to bring you dead
    mice as presents: Hope you like disease.

    Concerning dead mice, cuteness, and disease:
    
    I don't consider it particularly cute to find deceased small furry
    things (or feathered, for that matter), but I accept that the cat
    didn't do it to make me unhappy or to cause suffering to the bereaved
    mice/birds/garter snakes. I don't worry about disease, though, because
    I (a) don't pick up the corpses with bare hands, and (b) don't plan
    on eating them myself. As for the cats eating them, well, there's
    only so much you can do; I rely on regular veterinary visits to
    make sure the cats don't have parasites or other diseases.
    
    (Please note that the catching of mice is not part of the
    indoor/outdoor debate, as one of the main reasons cats came indoors
    in the first place was to catch mice... I suppose the outdoor cats
    have the edge with birds and snakes, though!)
    
    -b

	[RE .7] I was hoping that the way my last line contrasted with the 
rest of my reply would lead you to the correct conclusion that it was a joke. 
Lighten up Carmine!!!

	I thought note .9 was very good in the summation of some of the 
problems that outdoor cats (and their owners) can encounter. Some of these 
risks can be dealt with (vaccines, keeping cats in at night) and others have 
to be put up with (possible death of a pet). As for living near a major 
highway, well if I did then I would probably not get a cat (I don't consider 
"indoor" only as an alternative). All things considered it comes down to a 
personal decision, each of us weighing the all the aspects of owning a cat and 
making our *own* choices.

	I really must differ with note .10 making an allusion that cats need 
the same care/attentions a children. Cats don't come close in my world to the 
importance of a baby, nor is a baby particularly suited to the environment at 
that time in their life. I'm not saying I don't care for my cats, just that 
I'll accept the risks the outdoors pose to my cat's health more readily than I 
would accept similar risks for a child.

	My cats seem very happy with the outdoors, when first introduced to it 
this spring they coward at the door. Once shoved out I've got to run around to 
let them in. Not to mention they push out screens at night to get out! They 
love it out there. As for the possible diseases, true cats can pick up 
toxoplasmosis (spelling??) from eating raw meat, that's a risk an outdoor cat 
owner has decided to live with. And being indoor/outdoor cats they keep down 
the vermin population both in and out of the house (much more effective than 
indoor or outdoor only).

	I don't think there is any absolute right or wrong in this argument. 
Regardless of what "data" and "facts" are available, people make judgements on 
how they want to raise *their* pets by evaluating for themselves the 
"statistics" of keeping outdoor cats. I know lots of cats get killed by cars 
and there are diseases outdoor cats can get but I'm willing to live with it. 
Obviously other people have looked at the SAME data and made different 
decisions. The statement that there are "facts and data to back keeping a cat 
indoors" is a conclusion reached by an individual, not one of the laws of 
physics that can't be questioned. I would appreciate more being "educated" 
with the data so I can reconsider my decisions.

/harry

ps. I still think my cats can take any indoor cats in a fight!

    >re: .10
    
    I would like to dispute your claim that if people who let their
    cats outdoors spent some time in the animal shelter, they wouldn't
    let their cats out anymore. For your information, my husband and
    I have adopted two cats from the Humane Society where you have recently
    started working, and I have been there numerous other times. And
    the feeling that I walk away with from the shelter is NOT one of
    "I'm never going to let my cats out again", but a feeling of anger
    at people who are irresponsible about neutering their pets and a
    sense of sadness that people can be so cold as to just abandon a
    pet that has grown accustomed to their household and way of life.
    THAT is the true sin that I see at the Humane Society. Don't tell
    me about disease and the cat population - I love and take care of
    my pets by taking them to the vet regularly, and I am also responsible
    enough to have them neutered when they are of age. In fact, you
    should know that there is a contract one must sign when adopting
    an animal from the shelter to do so.
    
    I agree with the other notes that admit that indoor vs. outdoor
    is a matter of personal preference. But don't base the argument
    on irrelevant material such as neutering - a cat's neutering has
    nothing to do with indoor vs. outdoor, it has to do with how
    responsible the owner is. And as to the "happiness" of the cat -
    well all I can say is that I can show you the pushed-out screen
    and the scratches on the doors from our cats asking to go out. If
    you want to keep your cats in, I don't see anything wrong with that.
    But don't try to say that because we let them out that we're wrong
    or inhuman or irresponsible. Live and let live, or if you prefer,
    go play a tape of the Bonanza theme and live free or die.

       Those of you who know me, or have seen many of my notes in here,
    know that our cats are important to me.  As important as children
    are to most parents.  (And judging by the latest stats on child
    abuse, more important than some.)  So you can guess that most of
    my opinions about cats and cat issues like declawing and indoor/outdoor
    are not exactly mild.  I can understand that others have equally
    intense opinions.  However there is no excuse for the name calling
    and general intolerance that have been rampant in the previous replies
    on BOTH sides of the fence.  This file has long been an example
    of the best that notes can be, an interesting, informative, fun,
    FRIENDLY conference for the discussion of something we all hold
    to be important or we wouldn't be here.  Let's not let this file
    degrade to the level of SOAPBOX at its worst.
    
    	Enough moralizing.  Now to address the question.
    
    	I STRONGLY prefer to keep my cats indoors.  The benefits to
    their health and longevity, for me, far outway the real or imagined
    costs of keeping the cat inside.  
    
        We have 6 cats.  Five of them are indoor only.  These cats are
    healthy, friendlier than any indoor/outdoor cats I had when growing
    up, and quite happy.  They get plenty of excerise because we make
    sure they do.  Their lives are varied and interesting because we
    make sure they are.  They have cat towers to play on.  A 6'x8'x3'
    Cat jungle-gym that my husband and I built for them.  They have
    supervised trips outside (either on leash or just keeping an eye
    on them).  They have more toys than many kids do.  I think we've
    hit the compromise that will keep them alive, happy and healthy
    for a long time.  
    
    	In response to the statement that anyone who worked at an animal
    shelter for a week wouldn't consider having anything but indoor
    cats...  (Of course not an exact quote but I think I got close to
    the intent.)  I realize where you're coming from on this and I agree
    with you for the most part, BUT.  I worked a vet's office for 2
    years while growing up, I worked at the local shelter for several
    months, and I still am peripherally involved in the animals here
    in Greenville and a private shelter in Columbia that my mom works
    with.  You will note that I said that 5 of my 6 are indoor only.
    The 6th cat is an indoor/outdoor cat.  
    
    	Making the decision to let Cinnamon go out was a long and difficult
    one.  The story is too long to relate in detail but basically we
    had several major changes in lifestyle, (moves, separating the cats,
    getting married and reuniting the cats) that made Cinnamon intolerant
    to conditions that he had been happy in before.  This cat was
    miserable!  (Those who wanted to know how you can tell if your cat
    is happy or not, have a cat that's unhappy.  You'll be able to tell
    the difference!)  His unhappiness began to affect his health.  We
    were constantly taking him to the vet for a period of months.  We
    tried to find another home for him in which he could be an only
    cat or at least one of fewer.  If you think it's tough to find a
    home for an adult cat, try finding a home for an adult cat with
    a chronic problem!  The only acceptance we had was from a woman
    who had only one cat, but who would want to declaw him on all four
    paws.  Rather than subject him to that, we decided to try letting
    him outside to take some of the pressure off.  (Because I'd worked
    at the shelter, I knew it was unlikely that he'd be placed by them
    before they had to decide to put him to sleep.)  We've been letting him
    go outside for a little over a year now.  Although he's had his share 
    of traumatic injuries, two abcesses, one caused by a cat fight,
    one we suspect by a glancing blow from a car, and so on, his health
    in general is better now and he seems much happier.  He sticks VERY
    close to home.  He rarely leaves the yard.  So I hope that I won't
    have to scrape him off the road some day.  I KNOW he won't live
    as long as my indoor kitties, but for him the benefits were not
    worth the costs.  So be careful with those sweeping statements, there
    are exceptions to every rule.
    
    	RE: Have we breed the survival instincts out of cats?  I think
    that cats are less able to survive in this world than they were
    in the past.  Not because anything has been bred out of them but
    because we humans have introduce elements into their environment
    that they have difficulty adapting to, like roads, traps, etc.
    
        I believe it was Collins who asked to be educated about the
    stats concerning indoor/outdoor vs. outdoor vs. indoor.  If you'd
    really like that, I do have some articles at home that are fairly
    recent (within the last 18 mo, I guess).  If you'd like, I'll look
    them up and enter them here.  ('Course you know how long it took
    me to enter your breeder addresses, so I wouldn't hold your breath
    waiting for them.)
    
        And to whomever it was that had the PS. about your outdoor cat
    taking on my indoor cat, I took it in the spirit it was intended,
    i.e. lightening the mood.  And I'll see your outdoor cat and raise
    you an indoor vet-shredder that's the terror of 3 local vets.  
    
    tlh
    
    
    

    We have owned 9 cats over the last 17 years. Since we moved away
    from the city they've all been allowed to go out as they wished.
    We have lost three, one to mysterious causes (either a car or FLV),
    one to FLV, and one to breast cancer. Neither the FLV nor the
    breast cancer was a result of going outside. Even if I were convinced
    it was better to keep them in I don't know how I'd do it. I have
    five kids who never seem to remember to shut a door. (I go berserk
    at times trying to make them keep the dogs in.) Also ours is an old 
    house with many odd holes that cats can get in an out of. Two of our 
    cats joined our household by simply moving in - I'm still not quite 
    sure where they got in. For those of you who keep your cats inside
    all the time I am amazed that you are able to manage to do it.
    (By the way our oldest is now 15 and still in good health.)                 

    re;1
    
    Thank you Dr. Tom! Very well put. Farms and rural areas are great!
    'escorted excursions' fine. But never unsupervised in areas of close
    neighbor proximity.
    
    Where I live (Arizona) stray animals don't live long - coyotes love
    'em....
    
    Todd
    
    PS - Better clarify this - the coyotes hunt them down for food.
    nothing else implied.... (CYA...)

    re; 5
    
    Funny, I feel the same way about my wife as you feel about your
    cat. I guess you're not married, right!?
    
    All seriousness aside 8-), even though you DO make a point (contrary
    to mine), its not relative to this topic. The case in point is "should
    a cat owner allow their pet the priviledge of having a good time
    at the neighbors expense?".
    
    I think not since if I owned a dog and it urinated on your car tires
    every night, you'd probably be knocking on my door asking me to
    keep the dog on a leash. Relative to Response 2 who has the 1.7
    acres of land, have a ball! Chances are one million-to-one that
    your neighbors ever SEE your cat, but if they did, they'd have the
    same right to complain as I do....
    
    Todd
    

    Bravo Harry. Good try, but you too missed the mark. See reply 19.
    
    The point is: Should your cat be given the priviledge of having
    a good time at your neighbors expense. 
    
    Todd
    
    Ps. - Oh yea? My cat will whip your cats' butt ANY day and he's
    never stepped outside! (don't you love these intellectual discussions!)
    
    8-)
    

    Tell me, where did I loose control of this topic?
    
    Lets drop all the wonderful discussions of mouse-presents, FLV,
    cars, vermin, disease, what-the-cat-likes, what you like, what's
    best, and all those other JUSTIFICATIONS. Thats right, justifications!
    Most of you have made very good arguments for YOUR feelings and
    used the various statistics and topics as justifications.
    
    The issue at hand is: Is it fair that you allow your cat the priviledge
    of going outside at your NEIGHBORS expense? Now, we're all neighbors.
    We're also all people. I'll be the first to say "Hey, do what you
    want to do as long as you don't inflict your will on me". Go ahead,
    buy a rambler, paint you kitchen green with orange and gold dots,
    watch all those re-runs of I Luv Lucy, be a transvestite, get drunk,
    sleep late, enjoy watching bull fights,  HAVE A BALL! But when your
    good time inflicts problems for me, thats where it ends. It may seem
    like an exageration, but in a community where neighbors are right
    next to each other, an outside pet presents a nuisance to me.
    
    Thats the point, thats how I feel. 
    
    Now forget the justifications, any comments?
    
    Todd 8-)
    

    (Amazing how this kind of controversy always seems to surface when
    SOAPBOX becomes unavailable...)
    
    More to the point: It has been stated that allowing one's pet to roam
    outdoors may cause problems for the neighbors. This is true - it *may*
    cause problems. There are a good many things that people do that may
    annoy the neighbors, some of them more significant than having pets
    (such as having children - you should *see* what the little dears can
    do to someone else's property), and some of them less (like painting
    their house a legal but ugly color). 
    
    Now, while it bothers me severely to think that I have unknowingly
    caused someone a problem, I do not intend to quit doing everything
    that might even remotely do so. Instead, I will attempt to keep
    the lines of communication open. If the neighbors have a problem
    with my cats (who get to go out only under supervision and in the
    daytime, due mostly to Chiun's blind-spot with regard to cars),
    I would like to know about it. If I choose to mow my lawn at an
    hour that bothers someone, I want them to let me know. If I had
    a dog I would keep it on the property unless it was leashed, but
    there's always the chance that its barking, however mild and
    restrained, would bother somebody - and I would want them to tell
    me about it. (Few things frost me more than finding out that someone
    has been bad-mouthing me all over the place because of some such
    quirk, but never considered mentioning it to me.)
    
    So, back to free-roaming cats. If you have an un-altered cat, it
    is much more likely that your cat will be a nuisance to others if
    allowed to run unsupervised. If your cat is a known fighter,
    garbage-can vandal, or digger-up of tulips, likewise. But if your
    cat is none of the above, and if your home situation - traffic,
    acreage, etc. - permits, *and* if the cat wants out, *and* if you
    are willing to take the risks that we all know are higher for outdoor
    pets, *and* if you are sensitive to possible problems with the
    neighbors, then I'm not going to call you 'irresponsible'.
    
    -b

    I think the topic of indoor vs. outdoor has become a mute point.
    The reality of the matter is that cat owners will either let their
    cats out or keep them in - whatever their feelings and preferences
    dictate. Nothing said in this note will change anyone's opinion,
    I'm sure, because I'm sure all we cat lovers have thought out our
    decisions and have based them on our own beliefs, upbringings, and
    thoughts on the subject. What started out as an innocent "this is
    why I do (do not) let my cat out" has become a lot of mud-slinging
    and attacking other peoples reasoning and doubting their love for
    their pets, etc. Enough is enough - why not leave well enough alone?

Re: .22

	Rem acu tegisti, as the Romans used to say, you have hit the 
nail squarely on the head.  There are so many mitigating factors, so 
much context to be considered, that it's nearly (clearly?) pointless to 
come up with a solution and tell everyone they should use the same one. 
In the case of pets annoying the neighbors, you act in accordance with 
the situation; you Do The Right Thing in the Digital manner.  I am 
ashamed that I didn't write that reply.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    Dear B. Ravan--
    
    Thank you for your comments. You make some very good points and
    I appreciate them in all sincerity.
    
    I only have one counter point - what if you don't know who kitty
    belongs to???? Most of the time "Boots" is very evasive, can't be
    coraled to look for a collar, and rarely has a phone number or name
    of owner. This senerio leaves no alternatives... (no comment
    necessary...)
    
    Thanks again!
    Todd
    

    Ok folks, this has been fun! REALLY! I'm serious!  But I can see
    by the clock that time has run out. Time to move on as it has been
    so aptly put....
    
    Its obvious we all care for Boots, Ralph, Frisky, Cosmo, et al.
    Nothing like a good honest debate, and you've all been Good Sports!
    
    Like Collins said "Do the Right Thing!".  I love it!
    
    Thanks for all your time and comments!
    
    Here Kitty, Kitty!
    
    Adios from Sunny Tucson, Arizona! 8-)
    Todd A.
    

    Hi.  I'm new to NOTES, so please bear with me if I rant and rave...
    I was getting so caught up in the heated discussions!!!!  But
    confused..  Harry, his name is Mike, not Carmine!
    
    I'm a cat lover from way back when.  My mom, who couldn't talk my
    Dad into letting us get pets (6 of us!), managed to sneak a cat
    in.  I was 7 when she arrived, 4 weeks old and mewing, and she died
    when I was 26.  We had to have her put to sleep.  Her name was Cuddles
    although Dad wanted to call her Flubber when he saw how she bounced
    when my baby brother pitched her down the stairs....  She was
    well-loved (if not over-loved by 6 pet-starved kids) and she was
    an indoor/outdoor cat.  She slept in my bed (or anywhere she felt
    like) but was one of the best mousers in the neighborhood.
    
    I won't go into long details about her as the memories are still
    tender and I still miss her, but we lived in metropolitan Boston
    right on a main street next to Route 93.  She never got hit by a
    car, never fought other cats (no telltale injuries were ever found),
    and living to 19 years of age is no mean feat!
    
    I lost a dog to a car, so it was indeed a life-threatening situation.
    
    But, see, what everyone seems to be missing is that while the cat
    can't say," Gee, I'd like to be an outdoor or indoor cat..", she/he
    tells us in other ways!!  They CAN make a choice!!!  Cuddles adored
    being outside... Another cat of mine, Snuggs, hated going outdoors
    and wouldn't go near the door.  I never let Snuggs out.... she
    simply was ill-prepared for it.  She'd rather stay in and drive
    my landlady bananas!!!!
    
    So, I understand Philbrook's stand and, of course, I understand
    the Collinses (you're not likely to find more caring, more loving,
    or more devoted kitty 'parents' by the way!!)....  but I think I
    also understand the cat's stand.  Setting aside natures of the cat,
    worries of the owner, and life-threatening circumstances, I usually
    listen to what my kitty is trying to tell me and respond accordingly.
    I lauded Tracey's note... she understands, too.
    
    Oh, hee hee... the neighbors won't complain about the Collinses
    outdoor cats (all 3) because they're much too relieved that Harry
    FINALLY got rid of the 8 foot snake!!!!!
    
    I had some interesting exposures to outdoor cats, tho', in response
    to >>>==>PStJTT's comment about "wild NH cats"... You ain't SEEN
    a wild cat until you've seen the alley cats the run wild under the
    docks of Charlestown in Boston!! I used to work down there at the
    Moran Container Terminal and happened to catch a glimpse of a
    gigantic tiger-striped cat hauling kittens.  I was about to pursue
    it, in all my naive, cat-lover "Oh, no! Who'll take care of them?-
    glory, when I was stopped by the ILA.  Those 'poor little kitties'
    were known to leave remnants of local dogs in the yard!!  
    
    Enough about indoor/outdoor and my boring stories....  My visiting
    'step-cat' currently occupies the position of 'Reigning Cat of
    Bergentabe', but I hope soon to persuade my loving and devoted
    husband that we need the pitter patter of furry paws around
    the house....  He is, after all, such a REASONABLE man.....
    
    Ta...
    Bugsy

    My cat, Hobart, loves being outdoors and to my knowledge has never
    terrorized the rest of the neighborhood.  I firmly believe that
    it is not a matter of letting the cat out but one of whether your
    cat has been fixed.  Many cats in my "suburban" neighborhood are
    outside during the day or at night (I know of at least eight) and
    the only ones who ever spray windows etc., pee on doormats and howl
    are those who have not been fixed.  I realize that there are always
    exceptions however.  
    
    I'm not advocating that every cat should be outside but I think
    it's unfair to make a blanket statement that all cats should be
    shut indoors unless they live on a farm.
    

     I will not try to be a judge in this matter as it seems everyone
    is intent on "doing their own thing" in today's society anyway...
      
      I have traveled from west of Worcester Ma. to Maynard each work
    day now for over six years since I started with Digital.  
      Each year I've seen a MINIMUM of 100 dead cats and at least a
    DOZEN dead dogs smashed up on the highways between work and home.
      I keep my animals inside...as I would any living creature with
    the average intelligence of a two year old child!!
      I was taught at a young age that for every ounce of "rights" I
    had to accept five pounds of "Responsibility"!                  
      To each his/her own! 
    JMCD

    I too keep my cats indoors.  See the previous discussion for the
    reasons.
    
    Lets pose a question that is more in keeping with the original intent
    of this discussion.
    
    What would you do if your neighbor came to you and told you that
    your outdoor cat was bothering them in some way.  Think about it
    and lets have some good honest discussion here.  What would you
    do?
    
    Jo Ann
    

    My neighbor came to me one day and told me my cats were indeed
    bothering him by climbing on his car. I handed his an old bed sheet
    (bear in mind we were NOT friendly neighbors). He also complained
    about dogs leaving piles on the lawn, birds roosting in his barn,
    groundhog dining in his (pathetic) garden, and being awakened by
    crowing roosters.
    
    He used the sheet, sold the house and moved back to the city.
    
    I got two dogs of my own to keep the groudhogs out of my gardens,
    put out more bird feeders and built a larger coop for the chickens.