Conference misery::feline_v1

  Do you  have a basement? If it has a warm area in it (either where
  the  furnace/water heater is or perhaps a window on the south side
  that sun shines in during the day), give him a nice place to sleep
  down  there  and  shut  him in the basement when you are not home.
  You'd  just  have to make sure there's not much in the basement he
  could destroy.

  When you  come  home,  you  could  let him up into the rest of the
  house,  but  when you leave, back down he goes. As he grows older,
  the problem will probably go away, and then you could let him have
  the run of the house again while you're gone, if you want to.

				Martin

    Basement? In Dallas? What a laugh.  I don't think people down here
    have ever seen a basement.   
    
    As for his age, he's allready almost 2.  I think that I really need
    to get him a playmate.  Just haven't found the right one yet.
    
    As for being shut up in a single room, he HATES to be put in a room
    by himself - he'll chew the carpet at the door, or the wall next
    to the door to get out.  (he can even open un-locked doors)
    
    

  Never occurred to me you might be 'down South'. Guess I should pay
  more attention to personal names... :-)

  Sounds like  a playmate may be a good idea, but you may be letting
  yourself in for twice as much destruction. What about a "toy" that
  he  can destroy (or he and a playmate can destroy)? Something like
  a large cardboard box, inverted with lots of holes (many too small
  for  him to get through) cut in it. You could even be creative and
  attach  various  interesting  item  to  it  (string,  etc).  If he
  shredded  the  box, well, you'd have cardboard shavings to pick up
  every night, but your bills would be safe...

				Martin

    RE: .3 You're forgiven. I WISH i had a basement (was raised in
    Vermont).  As for toys - he has a whole cardboard box full of them.
    
    He HATES cat toys, so I have to buy him things like small chilrens
    stuffed animals... and yeah He tears them up.
    
    He also likes to get into the Toilet Paper.  remembering that he
    has now claws?  He can reduce a full roll to a pile of pieces in
    less than an hour!  (i've been curing this behavior with tabasco
    sauce on the remains, and then back in his mouth - With this method,
    we've reduced the frequency from once a week to once every couple
    of months.. just when he forgot how tabasco sauce tastes...)
    
    Any suggestions of better toys, greatly appreciated.  

	Does your bathroom have a window?  One of my family's cats, a
    wonderful Burmese, would be put in the bathroom while we were out.
    The worst that would happen is that she'd pull down all the towels
    and take a nap on each!

	I have to sympathize with you - Josh and Becky are much the same
    as  your  kitty  (and  there's  2  of  them!!!).  I  came home after
    Christmas  in NYC, Maryland and Virginia to find 3 chewed strings of
    Christmas  tree  lights, 2 chewed telephone cords and a chewed modem
    cord.  Needless  to  say, I was not very impressed. They even had my
    roomie for company most of the time I was gone!!!!

	My solution  to  my  problems is to cover all exposed cords (run
    them  through  plastic  tubing, tape them into corners, etc. I think
    the  next  time I go away I will remove all phone cords and put them
    in a closet.

	I have  a  small  suspicion  that  when  J  and B get hungry, if
    there's  nothing in their food bowl, they start chomping on whatever
    they can sink their teeth into and get some resistance (kind of like
    chewing gum for cats :-)).

	Like you  I  have  no  basement,  and  locking  the  cats in the
    in  a  single  room is liable to lead to destruction of that room. I
    now  have  a ritual of trying to put away (in a drawer or something)
    those  items  that  I don't want to have fanged to death. Many of my
    paperback  books have puncture wounds in the covers because of being
    left on a table!

	I solved  MY  toilet  paper problem in the following way, albeit
    not  very  glamorous:  cut  the middle section out of a 2 liter soda
    bottle  (the  part  that  makes  a nice cylinder). Cut it so you can
    "open"  it up to be a rectangular piece. Put over toilet paper roll.
    This  has solved almost all of my TP problems (occasionally I forget
    to put it back on after using the TP, but....)


	Good luck - I'll also be watching to see any new solutions!!
    
				    Kathy

       Try putting your bills in one of those letter holders that hang
    on the wall.  (I realize that this doesn't stop widespread destruction
    but it'll stop your bills from being eaten.)
    
       At the risk of stating the obvious, Can you spend more time with
    him?  Try to tire him out when you play with him.  
    
       Cat Toy reccomendation:  Peacock feathers.  Our cats go beserk
    over them.  They are great to really get them moving.  Get the reallly
    long ones.  The only problem is that they are fairly fragile so
    they eventually bend and break.  We repair them with tape till they
    break and them give them to the cats to shred.  And shred them they
    do!   They have reduced 3 foot feathers to a pile of 1/4 inch long
    pieces. 
                   
        If you can't find them anywhere else, try a cat show the next
    time there is one in town.
    
    tlh
    

    The best toy I've found is a fur/pipecleaner spider on an elastic
    string.  This has been tied to one of the kitchen chairs for about
    2 months now (the previous one wasn't tied up and got completely
    torn apart in about a month).  The cats go nutty over it - Chorniy
    was up late last night miouwing at it until I rescued him!
    
    We had to keep our bathroom door closed for a few months while the
    habits of tp shredding and shower curtain fighting (one cat in
    tub, one on the floor, large holes in the shower curtain resulted...)
    were broken.  Having 2 cats does NOT reduce destruction, although
    it's not quite twice as much.
    
    We tend to put away in drawers or behind closed doors anything moveable
    that the cats have decided is destruction material.  Then we give
    them something else to do.  They're like 3-year-olds but a lot more
    mobile (I've never seen a 3-year-old on top of a curtain rod batting
    at a spider-web!) and a lot less smart (Thanks for that!).  Some
    of the same strategies seem to work - more attention and a substitute
    toy for the thing that you're taking away.
    
    --Louise

    RE .-3 No there aren't any windows in the bathroom.  This is another
    thing that the cat book that I mentioned in .0 talks about.. So
    now I have all of my mini-blinds up 5-6" where the cat can sit in
    the window and look out during the day.  As for locking him in ANY
    room, well he's a screamer - And i'm sure the neighbors (i have
    a condo) think that i'm beating him...  The best punishment solution
    that i've found lately, is "locking" him in the shower - He has
    a real hard time getting out, and usually gives up, frustrated..
    
    RE: .others - I try and spend as much time as I can with him, and
    when we do play I usually can tire him out... but like I say,
    he's real hard to please when It comes to toys.. he'd much
    rather play with the TP than that "cute little furry mouse"
    
    Some other time i'll tell you about the houseplants that I used
    to have!
    
    

  A friend  of  mine  gave  my  kittens a "mouse" made out of a real
  rabbit's  foot. This toy proved quite destruction-proof (the phony
  tail  and  eyes lasted only a matter of seconds, but the rest hung
  in  there), and it kept them busy for hours -- I believe the smell
  and  taste  had something to do with it (no catnip on it, though).
  The  only  problem is finding it after it ends up under furniture,
  etc.

				Martin

Another device that seems to keep cats happy is a couple of ping-pong 
balls tossed into the bathtub.  They can play hockey for hours, and the 
shape of the tub keeps the ping-pong balls moving.
						>>>==>PStJTT

We have given up on store-bought toys for our cats.  They are just
as amused with things we find around the house.  The only bought
thing they like is the Hartz hollow plastic ball with catnip inside.
We have two of these to cut down on the amount of time spent looking
under the sofa.  It is also important to put these away before going
to bed, lest you are awakened at 3am by the sound of the plastic balls
bouncing of the kitchen cabinets.

When he can't get at the plastic balls, Izzy will scoop the ice
cubes out of your glass and play with them.  He will also steal
your pen if you lay it down.

    I like the idea of the ping pong balls, however I had to move the
    litter box in there 'cause he used to do it on the floor when he
    was mad at me.... so now if he's mad he either a) does in on the
    floor where the litter box USED to be or b) goes in the bathtub.
    
    I'll try the ping pong balls just the same, though. 'cause it isn't
    hard to wash the litter down the drain.
    
    RE: .12 i'll try one of those hartz balls, and see... I can't seem
    to get Sebastian interested in things like ice cubes... he likes
    things like trash cans better.
    
    

    My cat used to chew everything. Finally, I tried using rawhide chew
    sticks for dogs. He chewed those for a while and hasn't chewed
    anything else since.
    
    			Stan S
    

    My 4 little "angles" love those raw hide chew sticks better than
    the furniture legs that they used to chew on. 
    
    Have you got any cat furniture? ever since we got the delux
    kitty playground, they tire themselves out doing all sorts of
    acrobatics. They also seem to be facinated by anything round, and
    in particular, write-rings that I've "borrowed" from the lab (my
    cat Gus can catch them like a frisbee, unless of course I'm trying
    to show him doing it to a friend.
    
    Also, one more TP suggestion. My cat Pip used to grab the end of
    the roll and run thru every room in the house with it. What I did
    was to take wrap a wash cloth around the roll and fasten it with
    a close-pin. (It looked stupid, but it broke her or the habit).
    
    Good luck,
    Deb
    

    Get an empty thread spool, tie a string through it and tie it to
    a doornob.  My cat's will play with this cheap toy for hours, except
    when the younger one takes the string off of the doornob so she
    can carry it all over the house.  This is the best toy I've ever
    seen for cats.
    
    /Kathleen
    

    Since this topic seems to have turned into 'cat toys', I might as
    well throw my two cents worth in. Tie a bunch of rubber bands together,
    roll up some aluminum foil into a tight ball, attach ball to end
    of rubber bands, and hang 'rubber band ball' from the middle of
    an open doorway so that the cat will have to jump up to retrieve
    it. Guaranteed to drive the cat beserk and tire him/her out.
    
    -fmb (Nashville Cats)

    Thanks everyone for your responses.  I'll let you know
    which of the toys work out the best.
    
    Kevin

I would advise against aluminum foil and rubber bands as cat toys.
Neither one is good for a cat to swallow.

    Well i have another 'sad' story to add to this conference.  2 weeks
    ago after an out of court legal settelment with my condo's builder
    (which is another story in itself), I was fortunate enough to have
    to move.  I took Sebastian (who is now over 2) out to some friends
    house in the country where he was going to live for a couple of
    weeks until I could get another place together and get moved in.
    
    He freaked... started running circles around the dining room table.
    When I tried to pick him up, he bit a big chunk out of my hand.
    
    Recall that this is the same cat (or did I not tell this story) who the
    Vet asked me not to bring back....  (after this I had in-home vet care
    that went very well) This cat is the most loving wonderful cat at home
    with me where he knows/undertands what is going on.  He was even fine
    in the car... not happy about it but not viciously biting me. 
    
    Well... my friend called her friend (a Vet) who suggested we see
    if we could catch him and bring him over.  We did (after an hour
    or so) and he just wouldn't calm down.  
    
    I had to have Sebastian put to sleep.  And of course since he had
    bit me they had to do nasty things to his body to make sure that
    he didn't have rabies (I *KNOW* that he didn't have them).
    
    Sebastian almost NEVER went outside the enviornment of my house.
    I guess that the moral of this story is to take your "housebound"
    kittens out with you a few times while they are young.
    
    
    needless to say, my whole life is in a shambles over this loss.
    
    Thanks for a sympathetic (furry) ear.

    Kevin    

    Kevin,
    
    I feel very sorry for your loss, but...
    
    Did you ever consider giving the cat time to calm down...
    
    Sorry to flame, but I just have to...
    
    You bring the cat to a strange environment, and then chase it around
    and wonder why it bit you...then you chase it around some more,
    stick it in the car and bring it to the vet....
    
    Wonder why the cat won't calm down???
    
    
    What ever happened to putting the cat in a quiet room, giving it
    food and water and forgetting about it for a while???   
    
    I feel very sorry for your loss, but you just weren't fair to the
    cat.  Any cat taken out of it's normal environment will be stressed
    for a while.  Especially one that is so attached to its owner. 
    
    
    I experienced a similar incident about 6 weeks ago when myself and
    a friend moved in together.  He has a cat that had lived in the
    same house with no other cats for 4 years.  The cat was very nervous
    for about a week or so, and then calmed down and now interacts with
    my cats.  
    
    
    I really don't think you gave Sebastian a chance.  And I think your
    idea about bringing kittens out to socialize them is really not
    applicable.  Any cat/kitten whatever is going to act displaced in
    a strange environment....the idea is to get them through it as best
    you can.
    
    Sorry, I read this earlier this morning and then had to come back
    and add my 2 cents.  Your previous note really made me angry.
    
    cin
    

    RE: -1, -2
    
    Kevin,
    
    I'm going through the same heartbreak right now.  A month ago I
    made the choice to put my two Bouviers to sleep.  It was the hardest
    decision I ever made.  But now that it's over, I think I made the
    right decision, and I think you did also.
    
    My situation was similar to yours, in that my Bouviers were very
    friendly and loving towards me, but they weren't socialized properly
    when they were young.  (I got them as adults).  I loved them VERY
    much.  I live alone, except for my dogs and cats, so my pets are
    my companions and joy in life.  I'd had several problems with aggressive
    behavior, and uncontrollable behavior from the dogs.  One day one
    of the dogs was playing too roughly with one of my cats, and when
    I went in to save the cat, my hand got hurt.  That's when I started 
    realizing that this was a long term problem.  It wasn't going to
    just go away or cure itself.  After a lot of soul searching and
    talking to experts, I realized that my dogs would always be problem
    dogs because of their rough puppyhood.  Anyway - your situation
    sounded similar to mine, and I wanted to let you know that you're
    not the only one who's had to make this tough decision.
    
    Also, the last reply irked me a little.  I think this person was
    much too hard in their judgment.  Anyone who loves their animals
    as their children, and has to make the decision to have them put
    to sleep, deserves the credit of being given the benefit of the
    doubt..... that it wasn't an impulsive, or emotionally easy decision,
    and that ALL THE ALTERNATIVES HAD BEEN CONSIDERED.
    Since a vet has refused to treat your cat, I would guess that poor
    Sebastian was a little worse than just your standard skittery cat.
    And we have to think a little bit practically in this situation....
    In my case, I was looking at living the next ten years afraid my
    dogs my hurt someone seriously some day.  And the same for Sebastian,
    since he had already exhibited a tendency to bite.  I think the
    person who wrote the last reply should "wear our shoes" for a mile,
    and have to go through what we've just gone through before such
    a harsh judgment is made.  We loved our animals very very much,
    and never would have had them put to sleep unless we felt it was
    the right thing to do.
    
    - Molly -
    
    P.S.  Sorry to talk about dogs in the cats notesfile, but I think
    this is more an issue of putting a physically healthy animal to
    sleep, than of cats and dogs.  Also.... sorry to be so long-winded,
    but as you can tell, this is a subject that is very close to me
    right now and it struck a nerve.  I guess I should have said <flame
    on> at the beginning!

    link .22 says... you need to walk in my shoes for a while.
    
    Sebastian had a history of biting and had been refused treatment
    by not only 1 but 2 VETS!
    
    <!!!FLAME ON!!!>
    
    Of course I have him time to calm down... I placed him in a room
    by himself and let him explore for nearly 3 hours.  It was after
    this 3 hours that he bit me....
    
    IT WASN'T A SNAP DECISION AND BY NO MEANS WAS IT EASY!
    
    Sebastian was all that I had in my life to make it stable.  
    
    I can be very thankful that there are other people in my life that
    do understand what I've had to go through in the last weeks and
    do sympathaize with me.

    <FLAME OFF>
    
    Forgive me if i'm a little more than a little upset, or if I didn't
    give enough information the first time but.... I can't be anything
    but emotional about this right now.
    
    

    Admittedly, it IS difficult for us "outsiders" to understand what
    you were experiencing, but please understand that the ONLY information
    we have is what you share with us.
    
    Concerning you previous reply (.23), for example, you mentioned
    leaving the cat in a room alone for 3 hours.  Some of us (me included)
    will leave cats alone in a room for several days (sometimes many
    days) to let them settle down.  My two new "middle-aged kittens"
    are isolated from the other cats and the rest of the household
    routine, and will be *gradually* introduced.  For the past 3 days,
    I have visited them for short times, sat quietly, and brought food,
    water, and toys.  They are slowly becoming less timid around ME,
    but the next step involves The Meeting of The Cats.  And here we
    have no violence or frantic behaviors.
    
    On the other hand,  about 20 years ago, we had a little kitten who
    truly ATTACKED my feet from under the bed.  NOT playful -- she would
    lunge, sink her teeth into my achilles tendon, and hang on for dear
    life.  We took her to the vet for observation finally, and he concluded
    that there was indeed something wrong with her, and that we would
    have to either place her on a farm to be a barn mouser or put her
    to sleep.  We couldn't find a farm to take her.  
    
    What probably concerns some of us is that you were dealing with
    a cat that had already successfully been a pet/family_member, and
    now needed help/time adjusting to a new environment.
    
    Penelope
    

    	Another "don't judge til you've been there" reply.
    
    	I have a vet shredder myself.  I know how hard it to describe
    to someone how frightening my cat can be at the vet's.  (And
    occasionally at home.)  Bear in mind that I've had cats all my life.
    I've worked at a vet's as an animal handler and was complimented
    by the vets and animal owners alike for my ability to calm animals
    in tense situations.  I could work with/handle many animals that
    no one else could touch.  I'm not easily intimidated.  Pippin at
    the vet's scares the shit out of me.  (And he gets worse everytime
    we take him in.)  I come out of the examination room with my heart
    pounding and my hands shaking.  I consider myself VERY fortunate to 
    have a vet that continues to see him.  He would be well within his 
    rights to refuse to treat him.  
    
    	I once read an article about wills that stipulate the destruction
    of pets upon the death of the owner.  I thought that was the most
    egocentric thing I'd ever read.  (Well, I'm not alive, so my pets
    have no need to live any longer either.)  UNTIL Pippin's behavior
    started to degrade.  I probably won't have to worry about it, since
    I'm very likely to outlive my cat, but, I'm seriously rethinking
    my position on this.  I'm the only one who can come anywhere close
    to controlling Pippin.  (And that control is tenuous and becoming
    more so all the time.)  The bad thing is that Pippin is an FUS cat.
    If I'm not there, I don't know how they are gonna get this cat treated!
    
    	Most of the time, Pippin is a lover.  But if it gets to the
    point that I can't treat him, he'll be put down.  Better an easy
    death than a painful one of FUS .

    	For the benefit of those of you who have never been "Blessed"
    with the opportunity to see a truly terrified and panicking cat:
    a) Be aware that they can get so out of hand that they hurt them
    selves, running, fast, straight into things and b) I invite you
    to come help me, the vet, and his assistant to get Pippin in the bag
    the next time he needs to go to the vet.
              
    tlh
    

    Re:  .24
    
    I can't help agreeing that 3 hours certainly isn't enough time for
    a cat to adjust to a new environment.   When I brought my second
    cat into my house, it took AT LEAST a week for her to stop howling,
    running, scratching, hissing, biting (and everything else she could think
    of doing), before I could consider getting her to the vet's for a
    checkup.    And, believe me, there is nothing more frightening (and
    heart wrenching) than to see a panic_stricken cat acting this way!
    
    Please don't get me wrong, I'm not "flaming" at Kevin for the decision
    that he made.   I'm only trying to say that you have to give a cat
    more than 3 hours to adjust to something new.    
    
    _kab