Conference back40::soapbox

    Binder,
    
    Jennifer Capriati also comes to mind.
    

    Not to rathole the discussion quite this early, but who is Jennifer
    Capriati?

    
    
    Tennis player.

    
    Jennifer Capriati:
    
    A young pro tennis star. I think she was winning major tournaments
    in her mid-teens. Isn't she also the one who had some falling out
    with the law relating to shop-lifting, and later had drug problems
    as well?
    
    -b                   

    A good argu(e)ment for obtaining a good education and a degree under an
    athletic scholarship is, what if you get injured or lose your good
    health? What will you do then? Putting all your eggs in one basket is
    always very risky.

    Glenn

    The risk of injury was cited by Nyad as the reason for these
    $50-million contracts.

    So, they are guaranteed to receive this money, (ir)regardless of
    capacity?

   What kind of bunch of paternalistic crap is this?
   
   What kind of people can say with a straight face that someone who is
   18 is not an adult?
   
   
   Ding-dong.
   
   You are 18.  You are an adult.  Act like it, or suffer the consequences.
   
   
   Unbelievable.  A nation where people want to execute 12 year olds,
   but who don't believe that 18 year olds are adults.  Unbelievable.
   
   (All this has *nothing* *NOTHING* to do with minors in sport.)
   
   								-mr. bill

    As to the question at hand:

    Despite the fact that the schools have people who attend only
    to prepare for careers as professional athletes, the schools
    make a great deal of money, which benefits everyone, including
    the other students. I really don't think it's a terrible thing
    to have students who may not meet the highest academic standards,
    contribute in other ways.

    And generally, they are too immature to make a go of it in
    "the real world" anyway.

    -b

    A lot of athletes are also very good students. It centers around self
    discipline.

    Re: .9
    
    I don't see why they should go through the farce of calling them
    students, then.

    .8
    
    Ding dong.
    
    If you were fully adult at 18, the law would acknowledge that by
    lowering the drinking age to 18.  In fact, the drinking age was RAISED
    back to 21 after it became painfully obvious that 18- and 19-year-olds
    could NOT be trusted to behave in an adult manner.

    >I don't see why they should go through the farce of calling them
    >students, then.
    
    Well, they are students in a sense, it's just that their
    "major" is basketball, baseball, etc... I can go to
    college and learn to be an engineer, why shouldn't someone
    go to college to learn to be a pro athlete?
    
    -b

    I'd like to see all big-money sports totally removed from higher
    education. 
    
    
    

   re: .12
   
|  If you were fully adult at 18....
|  [ranting about drinking age deleted]
   
   I was fully adult at 18.
   
   Relying on the support of rabid reactionary republicans who held highway
   funds hostage to force the states to raise the drinking age is very weak
   indeed.
   
   A clue.  When I was 18, the drinking age in my state was 18.
   
   								-mr. bill

    That would be impossible in the U.S. but would it make anything better?
    
    Incidently, there is no big money sports in higher education in Canada.
    We have good universities despite this fact.

  If you are old enough to fight for your country and old enough to vote, then
you are old enough to play in the NBA.

  George

    Ding dong.
    
    If you were fully adult at 30, the law would acknowledge that by
    lowering the age at which you can be President to 30.  The age at
    which you can be President should be RAISED to 85 because it's
    painfully obvious that every President ranging in age from Kennedy
    to Reagan could NOT be trusted to behave in an adult manner.

    
>>    Well, they are students in a sense, it's just that their
>>    "major" is basketball, baseball, etc... 

	so they should perhaps offer courses.

	  Dribbling 101
	  The Art of the Free Throw
	  Spiking: When is it appropriate?
	  Who's on first?: The Perpetual Conundrum

	things like that.
	

I'd support Dribbling 101 as long as it was open to non-majors.

    Student is not synonomous with adult.
    
    People go to school at all ages.
    
    I agree that age should not be a factor in determining someone's, er,
    thrustability...however, it is a major problem in our school system
    that athletic students get ushered through curriculum that they have
    trouble with by the schools themselves to keep them playing and keep 
    the money flowing.  That is the biggest crime I see in this issue.

    
    >	so they should perhaps offer courses.

    >	  Dribbling 101
    >	  The Art of the Free Throw
    >	  Spiking: When is it appropriate?
    >	  Who's on first?: The Perpetual Conundrum

    >	things like that.

    Actually, the have things like this... sort of. One of the
    schools I went to had a "physical education" major... their
    "labs" consisted of spending their time working out,
    playing sports, and (I especially like this part) learning
    how to wash themselves. Yes, personal hygiene was one of
    the courses they had to take... too bad they didn't offer
    this course to the computer science majors... :-) :-)

    -b

    
    Mike Tyson is about to be released from jail.  The young lady, who
    appears none the worse for wear by a recent photo, is now rich.
    
      bb

    I heard on the news that Tyson will now face a civil suit.
    

    
    
    
       A number of underclassmen who've left college early and have gone
       into the NBA say that one of the major obstacles that they found
       out was that their bodies had not matured enough to take the
       "pounding".
    
       Take Shawn Kemp for instance (forward Seattle Supersonics),..after
       his sophmore year he entered the NBA,.....very physically
       developed at nineteen,....he thought his body was "falling apart"
       half way through the season.
    
       In most instances,....there's a major difference physically between
       a "late teen" and someone in their late twenties.
    
       Of course there are exceptions,......Shaquille O'Neal,.....
       ....Chris Webber.......
    
       .....those "big dollars" also help in forgetting about the abuse.
    
    
       Ed

    
      I recall meeting a couple who were 19, and had been going to
     bars for over a year, and were "illegalized" as the drinking
     age was upped to 21.  They got really sloshed the week before.
    
      Didn't happen to me - too old.
    
      bb

    >.....those "big dollars" also help in forgetting about the abuse.
    
    yuck.

    
    At 18, one may classified as an adult, but that does not mean he/she
    has the maturity to make any sort of "adult" decisions. 
    
    Some people mature faster than others. Is it still statistically true
    that girls mature faster than boys?
    
    My son is 21 (chronologically), but about 16 otherwise... no big deal.
    He knows it, I know it and so does the rest of the world. He is
    maturing quickly though in today's "adult" world.
    
     As to the initial story in .0...
    
     Most athletes are  "discovered" early on in their lives. They are then
    groomed, coddled, protected... whatever throughout their whole lives.
    They are taught to think that they are somehow different/better than
    the common masses, and react accordingly to where
    laws/rules/regulations... just about anything doesn't pertain to them. 
    
      They are a product of our times, and our problem. Sometimes we have
    to solve it the hard way... 
    
     First off, stop the treatment as noted above from an early age.
    Secondly, cut the cancer out asap.. even though it may hurt...
    
      Greed is an evil... 

    I mentioned Jennifer Capriati because she was pushed through the
    tennis world very hard by her parents.  She was playing the 
    biggest names in pro tennis by the time she was 14/15 years of
    age.
    
    An article I read on her said she had been pleading with her
    parents for quite a long time to allow her to attend high school
    with her friends and just be a "normal" teenager for awhile.
    Apparently her pleas feel on deaf ears; last year she starting
    rebelling in a major league way.  She's now had several brushes
    with the law, cocaine, heroin and other drugs found in a motel
    room that was raided by the police where Capriati partied with
    some friends.
    
    The girl is a very gifted tennis player; she wanted some down
    time to enjoy life as a teenager.  She was burned out, her parents
    wouldn't listen; now there are doubts she'll make it back into
    tennis.  Who knows, perhaps Jennifer will be happier without
    tennis.

    
    
    
        The so called individual sports,.....tennis,..figure skating,..
        ....gymnastics,...etc.,...take kids away from their peers at
        an extremely early age,....resulting in poor interpersonal skills
        and an abundance of other problems. At least with team sports,
        kids aren't isolated or "taken away" to live within a small
        circle of mainly adults.
    
    
        Ed
    

    If not everyone is mature enough at 18 should we allow them to vote? I
    know, I know, if your old enough to fight your old enough to vote. I`m
    not sure that I beleive that in a lot of case`s though.

    cases.

RE                       <<< Note 361.31 by MAIL2::CRANE >>>

>    If not everyone is mature enough at 18 should we allow them to vote? I
>    know, I know, if your old enough to fight your old enough to vote. I`m
>    not sure that I beleive that in a lot of case`s though.

  Well the slogan "if your old enough to fight you are old enough to vote"
doesn't necessarily mean that if you are mature enough to fight you are mature
enough to vote. 

  That slogan came about because during the Vietnam war kids felt that if your
country was going to draft you and force you to fight in a war then you should
have some voice in deciding whether or not that war should take place. 

  I say let'em vote. Look at the clowns the adults elect to office, can the
kids really do any worse?

  George

    
    
        re .27
    
        
        Would you not take the money?
    
    
        Ed

    Money would not make me forget about abuse.  Nor would it excuse or
    justify abuse.  If the condition of the money meant that I would have
    to forget, excuse or justify, then no, I would not take the money.

    The abuse is from the grueling workout scheduels and playing with
    others that are larger, stronger, faster, meaner etc.  It is not
    corporal punishment though that happens also in some rookie hazing
    events.  It is physically exacting for the younger players to keep up let
    alone compete with some/many/most of the veterans.  This is how
    they become seasoned and better themselves.  It's also their job.  
    Like the saying goes, if you're going to run with the big dogs, you 
    gotta get off the porch.  
    
    Brian

    	<<< Note 361.5 by POLAR::RICHARDSON "KFC and tandem potty tricks" >>>

>    A good argu(e)ment for obtaining a good education and a degree under an
>    athletic scholarship is, what if you get injured or lose your good
>    health? What will you do then? Putting all your eggs in one basket is
>    always very risky.

    	Many of the athletes who are good enough to turn pro before
    	graduation are good enough to get a hefty signing bonus too.
    	A million dollars just to sign.  Play for just one year and get
    	another million or more, and who needs a livelihood to pay the
    	bills after that?  They are set for life (financially) just 
    	like that.

    	Now, maybe you are asking, "What will they do with their LIVES
    	at that point...".

    	Well, if their career-ending injuries were not so debilitating 
    	that they would still be able to use their education (had they 
    	had one) then why couldn't they use their post-injury life to
    	finish the education that they abandoned to turn pro early?

    	We've come full circle.

    	It is my belief that a person who is physically capable of (and
    	qualified for) turning pro should be allowed to do so.  Playing
    	the sport is not the same as being in adult situations.  Whatever
    	constraints the student-athlete had from being absorbed into the
    	adult world as a student can still be applied to him/her as a
    	pro.  Let the parent/guardian manage it.

    	The problems with the bad-apple athletes who are used as examples
    	in these arguments did not come from their eventual pro-status.
    	They were long-festering problems that most times existed 
    	throughout their upbringing.  Turning pro was just the popping 
    	of the pimple.

    
    Marla
    
    Ed was refering to the "physical" abuse of the body one takes in pro
    sports. ie. the poundings from football, rebounding in basketball etc.
    I'm not sure to what extent you meant by abuse.
    
    Mark

    Well, I would imagine that if an education was important to you, you
    would complete university before going pro.

    	To most pro-bound student athletes, college is merely the next
    	stepping stone.  For them, education is not a priority.
    
    	Still, there are plenty of examples of pro-quality athletes who
    	chose to finish their educations before turning pro.  Education
    	*WAS* important to them.
    
    	And there are plenty of examples of athletes who turned pro
    	early and then finished their degree during or after their pro
    	career.

    
    
    re .35
    
    
    Hello.
    
    
    Ed
    

    b    b    bo     bo        bo       boo        boom    
    
     chris
    

    
    <-- go back to sleep.

    
    
    	'allo mz_deb...top of the morning to ya....
    
    

    Personal observation - I think that Oksana Biaul is another example of
    a fine athlete with amazing potential, thrust into the "big time"
    before she was really ready.  Her youth and her balletic grace have often
    lead judges (including at the '94 Olympics) to overlook her many
    not-quite tripled triple jumps and her two-footed landings.
    
    Since the Olympics, Oksana has (like so many others) gone
    temporarily-professional, raising money for her next Olympic bid. 
    Unfortunately, while her grace and dance skills are improving with age,
    her stamina and technical excellence have been decreasing this season. 
    While she used to include 7-8 jumps in every program, she now does only
    2-3, and at least one is an intentional double jump, and she still only
    rarely lands the triples as real triples.  
    
    Sports commentary heard from 2 different sources says that the skating
    world feels that Oksana was pushed *much* too hard to join the pro-tour
    and compete after knee surgery last fall.  Many feel that she may never
    fully recover because of this.  At 16, her body is still developing,
    requiring much more time to rest and re-train the repaired knee than
    she was allowed by her coach and her financial needs/desires.
    
    M.

RE    <<< Note 361.45 by SWAM2::GOLDMAN_MA "Walking Incubator, Use Caution" >>>

>    Since the Olympics, Oksana has (like so many others) gone
>    temporarily-professional, raising money for her next Olympic bid. 
>    Unfortunately, while her grace and dance skills are improving with age,
>    her stamina and technical excellence have been decreasing this season. 

  Well, she's coming off a knee operation that she had last summer. I'd wait
a bit before deciding if she's all washed up.

>    While she used to include 7-8 jumps in every program, she now does only
>    2-3, and at least one is an intentional double jump, and she still only
>    rarely lands the triples as real triples.  

  The standards in "professional" figure skating are much easier than the
standards in "amateur" figure skating. It is very common for skaters that
turn pro to skate easier programs in pro competitions.
    
>    Sports commentary heard from 2 different sources says that the skating
>    world feels that Oksana was pushed *much* too hard to join the pro-tour
>    and compete after knee surgery last fall.  Many feel that she may never
>    fully recover because of this.  

  In that case joining the pros was a good move because it is so much easier
than amateur skating. Had she tried to say at the amateur level, then she would
have had to push much harder.

  George

    I think both M & George make valid points.  I remember her at
    competition in Japan (World); she definitely wasn't up to par and
    it seems like that competition was just a few weeks after her knee
    surgery.  I can't imagine even putting on a pair of skates, much
    less completing jumps on that knee.
    
    Oksana may feel she doesn't have any choice; her mother is dead and
    her father may be too (I know it was just Oksana and her mother for
    many years before the mother took ill and passed away).  Victor
    Petrenko's MIL is her coach; she also acts as a guardian.  I believe
    Petrenko was paying for lessons and ice time in the early days; I can
    imagine she'd like to build up a nest-egg now.
    
    It's a Catch-22; if she does *irreperable* harm to the knee she may
    find herself unable to compete professionally, much less at the
    Olympic level.
    
    

    Oksana is, indeed, an orphan.  Dad died or "ran out" either before she
    was born or, at least, when she was very, very small.  And, of course,
    the Ukraine no longer has any money to provide support for athletes. 
    Until she went pro, Viktor Petrenko and his coach (Galina
    something-unpronounceable), were providing Oksana's support.  
    
    re: .46 -- *I'm* making an observation that has also been made by
    several sports commentators, reliable ones who have always been
    extremely pro-Oksana, including Scott Hamilton and Dick Button, both of
    whom practically worship the ice she skates on.  It is practically
    unheard of for someone to return to competitive ice (pro or otherwise)
    less than 5 weeks after major surgery.  In addition, while pro-skating
    is generally considered to *require* expressiveness and choreography,
    rather than lots of jumps, Oksana is competing with ladies who
    are providing those 7 triples *and* the artistry, like Kristi
    Yamaguchi, Nancy Kerrigan, Denise Bielman, and more.  
    
    M.
    

    
    
    .25              
    
    I believe that Shawn Kemp was drafted straight out of high school and
    never played college basketball.

    
    
    
        .49
    
    
         Shawn Kemp played basketball for two years at Trinity Junior
         College in Indiana.
    
    
         Ed

    
    
    
       in this day and age, it's all about money.  It's the me generation.
    One of the NBA's slogans is Stay in School!!!!  Why don't they practice
    what they preach and draft only seniors or have them sign a wavier
    saying they will go back during the off season to finish up.
    Shaq did go back on his own.  What bothers me is that new atheles going
    into pro sports are paid very well and the older ones will never catch
    up.  Image Larry Bird or Magic Johnson or what Wilt would get now.
    
      

    -.50
    
    I stand corrected. I did not know that Kemp played Juco ball!