Conference back40::soapbox

    So, how's the whither up there in Canada today?
    
    Chris

    Thank God Canada and Canadians are different from their southern
    neighbors...would have to laff at the suburbians crap

    
    Weather in Ontario is lousy...we're getting the tailend of
    Hurricane Mumble, albeit nowhere near as bad as the tropics
    got it.
    

    We've had a very mild autumn. Yesterday was arguably the most beautiful
    November day I have ever seen.
    
    Glenn

>>     Weather in Ontario is lousy...we're getting the tailend of


	John, are you and I living in the same city????  I just came
	back from lunch and it is Gorgeous outside - sunny and 19C.
	I know you were probably talking about the drizzle this morning,
	but this month has been pretty good if you ask me!

    
    Chris, I haven't been outside since 09:00h this morning.  
    I'm a tunnel-dweller.  :*)
    

    Quoted without permission from today's `Globe And Mail':

    A diplomatic note sent by the U.S. State Department to Ottawa on
    Wednesday acknowledged Canadian jusisdiction over Icelandic scallops
    in international waters off the East Coast.  It represents a major
    victory for Canadian fisheries officials, who have insisted they had
    the right to arrest two American draggers fishing for Icelandic scallops
    in waters outside the Canadian 200-mile limit off Newfoundland in July
    of this year.

    Icelandic scallops are found on the Canadian continental shelf, a small
    portion of which extends into international waters.  A United Nations
    convention gives coastal countries control over sedentary species outside
    their 200-mile limit.  Canada insisted that Icelandic scallops are fixed
    to the bottom of the ocean by fine threads, and don't move unless physi-
    cally dislocated.  That view was initially mocked by U.S. politicians and
    fishermen, who insisted the scallops move freely in the water.  But after
    reviewing scientific evidence from researchers in both countries, the
    Americans now agree that the scallops spend their lives stuck to the
    same spot.

    Canadian Federal Fisheries Minister Brian Tobin would not speculate on
    how the diplomatic note would affect the court cases of the two American
    skippers who were charged with illegal fishing.  They are free on bail
    and scheduled to appear in a St. John's court in early December for trial.
 

    
    there was a time when the timely appearance of a frigate
    would settle this sort of thing. 

    
    Canadians have lovely inflections.

    -1
    
    I thunked you said,
    
    "Canadians have lovely infections!"

Wither Canada?

    Hope not.


    Still inflected,

    Glenn

    CAUSES of DEATH in CANADA 1992   (INDUSTRY SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
    and STATSCAN FIGURES, Canada Center for health information)
    
    Circulatory				76,211
    Cancer 				55,668
    Respiratory				16,663
    Digestive				 7,224
    Endicrine/Metabolic 		 5,839
    Nervous System			 5,268
    Mental				 3,593
    Ill-defined Conditions		 3,166
    Genito-Urinary			 3,119
    Infectious/Parasitic	 	 2,744
    Cogenital Anomalies			 1,216
    Perinatal Mortality			   981
    Musculo Skeletal			   802
    Blood/Organ diseases		   726
    Skin Tissue Disease			   180
    Pregnancy Complications		    19
    
    
    Motor Vehicle accidents              3,462
    Falls				 2,138
    Poisoning				   726
    Suffocation				   706
    Fire/Flame				   328
    Water Transport		 	   179
    Medical misadventure		   154
    Nature/Environment			   115
    Air/Space transport			    66
    Firearms accidents			    63
    Railway accidents			    32
    Other accidents			   832
    
    Subtotal (All accidents)             8801
    Subtotal (Suicide)                   3709
    Subtotal (Homicide,incl. Justifiable
                         by  Police)      732
    
    Total deaths                       196,535
    
    Population                      27,408,900 

    <- What about beer and boredom ?
    

    Well, the beer here is great.

    The boredom here is a little more exciting than in most countries. That's
    why Canada produces so many funny people.  8^)

    Glenn

    What about dangerous drugs like Marijuana.  There has to to be a lot of
    those attributable to such an addictive substance.  :-)

    
    I didn't see any deaths attributed to whirly twirlies.

    re: 17
    
    That's 'cause of the extreme cold. People in Canada have developed
    a sort of immunity to the dangers of whirly twirlies that would lead to
    an unexpected increase in heart rate that might lead to SWTDS.
    
    (That's Sudden Whirly Twirly Death Syndrome)
    
    

    Here I am trying to put in something relevant and serious and all you
    guys can do is clown around. You're not fooling anybody, everybody
    knows that we have the problem relatively under control.

    RE: .19
    

    Akshually ... We are being MOST serious.

    Complications from whirly twirlies have prolly decreased so much that
    I'm sure they no longer qualify as a separate category, and are
    therefore undoubtedly listed as a sub-category under one of the
    following:

	Ill-defined condition
	OR
    
	Cogenital Anomolies
	OR 
    
	Circulatory (makes sense to me because of the "whirly" part)
	OR
    
	Digestive 
	OR
    
	Suffocation (Not likely. You'd have to be pretty stupid.)


Intern

    

    What is a sense of humo?

    It's what you get as soon as you write a Note that is longer than
    9 lines of text. 
    

    I think this cold snap we are having is affecting the tongues of radio
    announcers around here, on the way home last night I heard one (while
    reading the nights hockey match-ups) that the the Florida PanZers were
    meeting the PiTHburgh Penguins and then this morning a different
    announcer said that	the PiNSKburgh Pethwins had won their game. Either
    their tongues are frozen or they just choke on the idea that Pittsburgh
    is playing so well and their beloved Leafs arent.
    
    
    Joan	 

From: umnarva0@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Rudy Narvas)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: What if Trudeau wasn't a CaNoeIst?
 
 
WHAT IF FORMER PRIME MINISTER TRUDEAU
REALLY WAS A COMMIe
 
Newsgroups: 
   alt.history.what-if 
 
A reporter once asked Pierre Elliot Trudeau (former Prime Minister of 
Canada for those non-Canadians), "Are you a communist?", Pierre replied, 
"No I'm a canoeist". The scenario now is what if that playboy chose to 
humour the medium by replying, "I'm as red as the Canadian flag." Hmmmm.....
 
The period in which this statement is not known by myself so I'll just 
assume that it was said early on during his reign......but let's pretend 
it's somewhere in the late seventies. The story begins...
  
 
1) Nixon becomes the first western head of state to visit 
communist Canada. As he descends  fromthe plane he is pelted with hockey 
pucks, smeared with maple syrup, and jeered with chants of 
"Sha na na na hey hey hey Good-bye..."         
 
2) 1994 US senator from North Dakota threatens to aim missles at  Canada 
if they do not give access to the Canadian fresh water supply. We 
concede, but lace the water with Prozac and acid. America becomes 
difficult to differentiate with the Magic Kingdom.
 
 
3) 1984 Hockey Super Series, becomes a tool for nationalistic pride. 
American flags are flown upside down, fights erupt, arguements over 
which is better Canadian or American beer, and the American hockey team 
loses, because their star hockey players myste riously defect to Canada.
 
4) The Canadian anthem is officially changed in 1985 to, "Snow Bird".  
 
5) Prime Minister declares we are at war not with America, but American 
culture. It is a time when the Canadian black market for items of 
American pop culture is growing exponentially. Big ticket items include 
Boston & Kiss Albums, issues of Cosmopolitan, posters of Andy Gibb, fat 
ties, and RC cola.
 
6) Canada becomes a military power. The special forces units beat the 
marines in a cross border tug of war, the loser is pulled into a puddle 
laced with prozac. 
 
7) Canada bans the play  of football. The central commitees' reasoning 
is that, "It exemplifies American culture. It is highly commercialized, 
the periods are evenly divided into quarters and halfs, there are short 
spurts of extreme violence followed by long drawn out meetings whose 
plans are determined by coordinators on the sidelines."
 
8) The FBI has arrested a number of actors, writers and others in the 
entertainment industry, for their role as Canadian agents and spys. The 
episode is well documented in the TV special called "The Canadian 
Conspiracy." Among those arrested are Michael J Fox for ridiculing the 
all American boy and the greatest US president in his role as Alex Keaton 
in the hit 80's show, "Family Ties". Leonard Cohen is also arrested for 
polluting the minds of a generation with sexual smut and refrences to a 
Canadian manifest destiny, the key evidence is the song, "First We take 
Manhattan".
 
9) Trudeau is smeared by all US presidents as being a, "pot smokin', 
hippie, canoeist." Trudeau is said to have replied, "It wasn't pot, it 
was opium. They can't get anything right those bloody yanks."
 
10) The hit sensation Roxette becomes the first western pop band to play 
in Canada since Neil Diamond. The crowds could be heard miles away 
singing those fab lines, "Hello I love you, do you want to go on a joy ride...."
 
add you own..

    I would never get into an arguement about beer simply because I
    wouldn't know how to conduct one. 

	.25  That's a little too thought-provoking for a Monday,
	     don't you think, Glenn?  ;>

    Sorry, I didn't mean to provoke you. 8^)

	Glenn, a beer is not a symphony. Zima would be, but never beer. So no
one wants you to do any conducting.....

    You'll get no arguement from me, I promise.

| <<< Note 59.29 by POLAR::RICHARDSON "I don't want to go on the cart" >>>

| You'll get no arguement from me, I promise.

	Margerine???

    
    
    margarine
    
    8^)

    .28
    
    Zima is not a symphony.  I promise.

    
>>    Zima is not a symphony.  I promise.

	well, it's sort of like the unfinished symphony.  like they
	stopped just before they put in the taste.

    
    Zima may be a symphony, say, one composed by Yanni...
    
    -b

    
    Aren't Yanni and Cam Neely the same guy?

	No, Cam Neeley is cute.

Re: National police forces

How is the RCMP generally perceived by Canadians, specifically in
relation to the American view(s) of our FBI?

Are there any "other" national enforcement agencies of any type
in Canada (similar to our BATF, e.g.)?

And, since I don't know that we have a UK topic, while I'm at it
how do most of the British people feel about Scotland Yard in the
same light? (Scotland Yard is national? Or is it just London?)

How about other countries? Germany? Australia? Do you have national
police forces?

    
    Note 59.37, Jack:

>How is the RCMP generally perceived by Canadians, specifically in
>relation to the American view(s) of our FBI?
    
    Canadians generally respect the RCMP, and take a great deal of pride
    in their history and professionalism.  However, they have not been
    without controversy; specifically in regard to: 1) their relations
    with Natives, and: 2) their former Security Service, which has since
    been spun off into a separate agency, the Canadian Security
    Intelligence Service (CSIS).

Are there any "other" national enforcement agencies of any type
in Canada (similar to our BATF, e.g.)?
    
    There is CSIS, which would be a mild version of your CIA or NSA, and
    there is one other shadowy little agency called (I believe) the
    Communications Security Establishment, which essentially monitors
    international airwaves for interesting information.  The rather vague
    nature of this agency has come under some public glare recently, but 
    so far they have not been accused of any wrongdoing.  Th only other
    thing would be Canada Customs (which is not an armed service), and
    the Canadian Armed Forces Military Police, which handles only military
    issues.
    
    jc

     

    Does CSIS have the power to enforce? I didn't think it did.

    
    Ummm...enforcement?  No, I guess they simply make recommendations to
    the Minister of Justice, who would then direct the RCMP to make the
    arrest.  These would really only be for issues of national security.
    

    re: .37
    
    > Do you have national police forces ?
    
    Switzerland:   =>   No way !
    
    Government tried to establish a national police force (several times
    I think). But the people said  <NO> at the ballot-box.
    
    Simple as that.
    
    Kurt

    Mounties also inherit immense prestige of old North West Mounted
    Police, who supervised the relatively carnage-free settlement of the
    West.  (They were not tolerant of violent crime, particularly the kind
    committed with guns.)
    
    -Stephen

The RCMP inherit the respect accorded Dudley Doright.

    And that guy on Due South.

And Sargeant Preston and King.

       Sergeant Preston's horse was named Rex, fyi.
       
       And the theme music to the teevee show was from the Overture ot
       Donna Diana (Reznicek, if the gray cells don't fail), afyi.
       
       --Mr Topaz

Not his horse, his DOG!

    You mean Diefenbaker.

Was that his other dog?

    I'm dogone confused.

Then you _ARE_ indeed a lucky man.

    Now Jack, yes I am, but you are even so excruciatingly lucky as well.

    England - Scotland Yard are just your regular pigs. They have the beat
    bobbies and CID (Criminal Investigations Dept) then there are other 
    types of copper who do various other things.. Drug squad etc
    
    The FBI typres are the MI5/MI6 types. They are the big boys, all the
    spys and stuff.

So the British FBI is actually the James Bond types?

    Okay here we go with a extract from the crapest program on TV.
    
    "That's me Carlton Dial, I used to be a spy, but now I do something
    really dangerous, I recover missing {somethings}"
    
    gawd... I have never herd so much tosh in my entire life ! What a 
    complete prat ! I wish someone would shot the <r.o> but I guess he 
    would probably find a way out of that too!

    back to the question in hand. The British version.... There are (I
    think) different levels in MI5/MI6. From the equivilent on an FBI agent
    upto the 007 types.

Well, this is the first time I ever heard that MI5/MI6 was a national
domestic British police force.

I always thought Scotland Yard was the equivalent of the FBI.

/john

    
    SY has the Special Branch for armed ninja-suited response.

         > Scotland Yard
         
         
         Anagram:  Clad a dry snot.
         
         
         --Mr Topaz

    what is a crapest program?

         re .60:
         
         Jean Crapest, Tory leader?

    Ah. Thank you.

    
    re.-some
    
    FYI
    
    MI5 & MI6 = just intelligence organisations, with no powers of arrest,
    they use Special Branch for that (MI6 works abroad, therefore
    equivalent to the CIA)
    
    The police has its own firearms assault teams, forget what they're
    called, but specialist SAS teams can and have been used also.
    
    Darren
    
    PS. Scotland Yard is just police HQ I think (?)
    
                          

    
    There is a provincial election in Ontario on June 8th.  I was thinking
    that since I don't like ANY of the candidates, I might just pay the fee
    and have my name put on the ballot so that I can vote for myself, and
    avoid the whole thing altogether.
    

Do they allow write-ins on Canadian ballots?

    
    Ummm...I don't believe so.  Your ballot would probably be considered 
    spoiled.
    

    KNIGHTD
    
    SAS = Special Air Services - Elite commando unit, part of the British
    Army. Equivillent (sp?) of US Navy Seals (close as I could imagine).
    
    Have you been watched too many films ?
    
    Scotland Yard is the Police Headquarters for the British Isles. MI5/MI6
    do have the power to arrest/detain + quite a few other unmentionables !

    What the <r.o> is wrong with my English today !?!

    
    re.-some.
    
    cheers DAVISM, but I'm fairly sure that MI5 and MI6 don't have the
    power of arrest, but I'm not taking it as gospel.
    
    The SAS *CAN* be called in as police backup in an emergency, and
    thanks, but I think the entire world knows what it SAS stands for.
    
    Darren
    

    
    ps. I think you'll find that the SBS is the equivalent of the SEALS
    

    Omigawd! A _suburbian_ !!!!!

    
    Actor Michael Moriarty, fed up with what he sees as government
    interference in free expression, says he's bidding the U.S. adieu
    and moving to Canada.  The former `Law & Order' star told `American
    Journal' that "we are a burgeoning fascist state."
    

    Does that mean he'll be giving up his rent-controlled apartment in
    Manhattan?

is has?

       Canada -- is that the place where people in Ontario had to take
       surreptitious trips to Buffalo to bring back newspapers with
       stories about a trial that was taking place back in Ont.?  Because
       the Canadian media weren't allowed to report it?
       
       Canada -- is that the place where 1st Nations people, as recently
       as earlier in this century, weren't allowed to hold potlach
       festivals?
       
       Canada -- is that the place that where the official opposition
       party has, as its only real purpose, the goal of extracting itself
       from Canada?
       
       Good luck, and nice doing of homework, Michael Moriarty.
       
       --Mr Topaz
       

       i stuffed

    
    Note 59.74

       >Canada -- is that the place where people in Ontario...
    
    <yawn>  been there, done this.
       
       >Canada -- is that the place where 1st Nations people...
    
    Yeah, like life has been strawberries and cream for 1st Nations peoples
    and blacks in the U.S.   Gimme a break...
           
       >Canada -- is that the place that where the official opposition
       >party has, as its only real purpose, the goal of extracting itself
       >from Canada?
       
    Extracting *Quebec* from Canada, yes.  What's your point?
    
    jc
       

	And Chris Noth, from Law & Order, was told to take a hike. Will he be
headed for Canada next???

	Anybody know who the ONLY origional cast member of Law & Order is?


Glen

    
    	RE: Glen
    
    	Must be that really cute brunette ... Jill Hennessey, I think?
    

	Nope, I forget the guys name (he might live in Canada right now), but
she replaced him. Strike one!


Glen

    
    NONE of them should come to Canada...there's no work for actors here!
    Why do you think all our actors go south?
    
    :^)
    

    >> Why do you think all our actors go south?
    
    Because they want to follow in William Shatner's footsteps?
    
    Chris

Lorne Greene predates William Shatner by a few years.

    
    We could go back as far as Raymond Massey, or even back as far as
    Mary Pickford.
    
    :^)
    

    I know, but if I were an aspiring actor, I wouldn't want to follow
    Lorne Greene's footsteps all the way to where he is today.
    
    Monty Hall, maybe...
    
    Chris

    Re: .72
    
    I read he was headed for Europe.  I have no idea what's happening to
    him, but I hope he gets help soon.
    
    
    Re: .78
    
    >Anybody know who the ONLY origional cast member of Law & Order is?
    
    Steven Hill wasn't in the pilot.  It would have to be one of the minor
    characters, like Profacci(?).

    
    By the way...for all those constantly harping about the `closed court-
    rooms' and `publication bans' in Canada...the ONE instance that you
    have been referring to (the Karla Homolka trial) is about to become
    public domain.  The trial of her estranged husband, Paul Bernardo, 
    begins today, and as that trial progresses, all the details that had
    been temporarily banned will come out, in all their grisly glory.
    
    The media scaffolding outside the courthouse is positively abuzz today
    with eager journalists, so you can strike that one off your Canada-
    bashing list.
    
    jc
    

	go south or Due South???

       eh?

due south... the tv show????

CALLME::MR_TOPAZ

>>Canada -- is that the place that where the official opposition
>>party has, as its only real purpose, the goal of extracting itself
>>from Canada?

 This would mark Canada as among the most free countries if not the most
free country in the world. Where else could 1/4 of the population debate
publicly their desire to stay or leave, and remain a peaceful place ?


 Alot of talk of freedom of speach in here. I submit this is alot more freedom
than is available in any other country.

but then again, we temper our freedoms with common sense. Bernardo
getting away with it because the entire jury pool (the whole country)
had been contaminated with sensationalist journalism would be an
example. I know American's cannot see the justice in holding information
to ensure a fair trial, but that's just the way we are.
    
    							Derek.

> Where else could 1/4 of the population debate
> publicly their desire to stay or leave, and remain a peaceful place ?

Happens in 'Murrica all the time, Derek.

    MOLAR::DELBALSO
    
     Oh ? Which State Government advocates seperation ? Which political
    party represents that position ?
    
    Or was that a general statement of discontent in America you were refering
    to ?
    
    								Derek.

The general statement of discontent. Which could just as easily be stated
by a party if one were to galvanize around that concept. There's nothing
illegal about it, after all. Yet.

Do you zinc so?

    
    Driven by El Delbalsto's mercurial personality, no doubt.
    

    MOLAR::DELBALSO
    
     So let's say Texas decides that they were really more interested in
    their Spanish ties than their American ties. Further more, they pass a
    law that says ONLY Spanish can be displayed on public signs. Then,
    after sowing their oats for a while, decide they want to leave America
    for a future in a Spanish country.
    
     Tell me how that would be recieved in the ROA (Rest of America)
    
    							Derek.

re: .99, Derek

Oh - you mean you were stressing the point that if Quebec up and left
the ROC wouldn't GAS?

    
    	ROC?
    
    	Why would China care?
    

    MOLAR::DELBALSO
    
     Good example for the ethnic aspect, apparently not a good example
    otherwise. :*)
    
     Which if any state do you think the *government* would fight over, not
    you personally.
    
    							Derek.

       re .103:
       
       Would you mind if I supplied a list?
       
       VA, NC, SC, GA, FL, AL, MS, TX, AK, LA, KY
       
       --Mr Topaz

    <--- Yes, they held lots of referendums and tried to hash things out
    through due process of legislation didn't they? Ah, those were such
    peaceful times.

    Had things gone the other way, they might be putting up barricades in
    Richmond to keep the nutty assailants away. ;-)

Actually they (except Ky which remained neutral) did for some time prior to
firing on Ft Sumter.  Lincoln's insistance on resupplying Ft Sumter despite the
commanding officer's protests, and refusal to meet with Representatives from the
Southern States prior to April 12, 1861 contributed significantly to the
decision to go to war.

The Canadian $ used to be worth more than the US $, right?  When?

    1975

    So, what you're saying is, you had a fabulous time and you love Canada
    and we're all a bunch of fun people to be around!
    
    8^)

Ginseng on the Up and Up; Mcmaster Team Finds Chemical in Root That
Can Alleviate 'Erectile Dysfunction'

By Alan Edmonds
   TORONTO, June 4, Toronto Star -- Four undergraduate students at
Hamilton's Mcmaster University, three of them women, have helped prove
scientifically that one of the most stubbornly durable "myths" of ancient
medicine is probably true: ginseng is good for men's sex life.
   Under chemistry professor Russell Bell, the students conducted a two-
stage experiment that showed that the type of steroid compound called
saponin in ginseng (Panax) is a vaso-dilator.  That is, it opens up the
veins and arteries and improves blood flow.
   And a large number of the doctors now specializing in impotence believe
poor blood supply to the penis or pelvic region is a common cause of what
these new specialists prefer to call "erectile dysfunction."  (One says,
"The actual word 'impotent' is too negative, so we avoid using it.")
   Ginseng may also stimulate the interest of women, since increased blood
supply to the pelvic region is associated with sexual arousal.
   The work at McMaster is particularly relevant because, with the Baby
Boom generation aging fast, there are nearly 2 million men between 50 and 60
in Canada.  Sex doctors guesstimate that at least 15 per cent and perhaps
as many as 60 per cent of them have become partly or totally impotent.
   Precise statistics will never be available because the macho-man tradition
means men rarely admit they can't get it up any longer.  Dr. Sender Herschorn,
who runs one of North America's busiest impotence clinics at Sunnybrook Health
Centre, says women make around half the clinic's appointments for their men.
   And one of the major tools in the arsenal of impotence clinic doctors is
the penile doppler test, an electronic check of the penile artery by
measuring the rate of blood flow to the penis.
   The next step in Bell's research at McMaster is to look for the specific
ginseng saponin that is the best vaso-dilator.  If found, and if Western
"scientific" pharmacology synthesizes it into a pill, it could be an anti-
impotence medication, perhaps even a sex stimulant, that would outsell Prozac.
   Bell and his students have identified 13 different saponin molecules
(ginsenocides) in Panax quiquefolium, the native North American ginseng that
has become a $40-million a year export to China from Canada.  Bell is now
preparing for a joint experiment with Hong Kong University in an attempt to
isolate the saponins that are most effective.
   "We have succeeded in separating out five groups of saponins," says Dr.
Bell.  "We know that at least three groups contain vaso-dilators.  The next
step is to attempt to isolate individual saponin to determine which works
best."
   Bell stresses that it may not actually be a saponin that dilates the
vascular system but some other component of ginseng that is carried with the
saponin molecule.  And what that does is open up yet another skirmish in the
battle between Western "scientific" medical pharmacology and the growing
popularity of hand-me-down herbal medicine.
   The work at McMaster was begun by David Kwan, a pharmacologist in
neurosciences.  In a laboratory dish he kept alive a section of a dog's
aorta, the main trunk of the cardio-vascular system that leads to the heart.
To it he attached electronics capable of measuring infinitesimal movement.
Then he "fed" the living tissue a crude extract of Chinese-grown ginseng
(Panax ginseng).  The aorta dilated; that is, it became enlarged.
   Kwan then asked the chemistry department to do a more detailed breakdown
of the ginseng chemical structure to determine just what was causing the
enlargement of the artery.  With students doing the work as part of their
senior thesis projects, Bell used samples from the crop that has partially
replaced tobacco as a staple for southern Ontario farms.
   Separated into five groups of two, three or four, the samples were also
fed to the living tissue of dog aorta.  "Three were active vaso-dilators,"
says Bell.
   The, with Brian McCarry, he set about devising ways to use high-
performance liquid chromatography to break down the groups farther and
identify each individual saponin for testing by Kwan, now on the faculty of
Hong Kong University.
   "In part, Kwan is invoking sophisticated Western science to test part
of his cultural heritage," says Bell.  "Traditional Chinese doctors say you
need a bit of this and a bit of that and they work together synergistically.
Scientific Western pharmacology looks for one thing, one so-called active
ingredient.  Then we medicate with that one ingredient, or the synthesis of
it."
   But rummaging around in the medicine cupboard of history, chemists and
pharmacologists have found that forms of saponin can be extracted from many
other plants.  Thus it may "a bit of that" in ginseng that by itself does not
dissolve in liquid but which is held in suspension by saponin molecules that
do.  If this turns out to be the case, the "active ingredient" may prove very
elusive.
   And once it is found, scientists may still not know why or how it works on
the cardio-vascular system.
   To the Chinese -- and increasingly to Western Naturopaths -- ginseng is a
staple of traditional herbal medicine.  If the ginseng is wild, fairly old,
and resembles a human figure, it costs upwards of $30 a leung (about an
ounce).
   At Yi Kang Yuan Herbs in the heart of Scarborough's Chinatown one man-
shaped root around 20 years old is priced at $1,250.
   Cultivated ginseng is harvested after only three to seven years.  When
powdered to make prophylactic tonic, it costs $10 or so for a months' supply.
   It's as a tonic that ginseng is mainly used.  It's considered one of the
most powerful of medicinal herbs because it helps both Yin and Yang
conditions.
   Yin (passive) and Yang (active) represent the Oriental concept of duality
in all things.  If they're in balance, you're healthy.  If a patient is "low"
-- lacks energy and is "passive" -- Chinese doctors diagnose this as a Yin
condition and a dose pf "hot" ginseng is prescribed as a stimulant.
   If a patient is hyper, that indicates a Yang condition and "cool" ginseng
is prescribed to strengthen their Yin.
   "Hot" ginseng comes from Korea and northern China and is used to improve
men's sex life.
   Canada's ginseng, despite Bell's work, is considered "cool."

   [Alan Edwards is a writer and broadcaster based in Toronto.]

    Is that the long and short of it?

    re: "penile Doppler test"
    
    Does that measure beat frequency?
    
    Chris

================================================================================
Note  59.l                       Wither Canada                          84 of 32
CALLME::MR_TOPAZ                                     -2 lines  01-JUL-1995 29:20
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
       
       Happy Canada Day!

    My brain huuurtz!

       The pain must be very, very small.

    Oh. Cut me to the heart that did.

    
    
    Alas, poor Glenn......

    
    
    We can see the sacrcasm dripping off of your reply .120 Sir Topaz.

    
    A while back, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police told people to stop 
    using their `Mountie' image on toys and souveniers and such, claiming 
    that the copyright belonged to the RCMP, and if anyone was going to 
    make money off the image, it should be the RCMP.
    
    Well, they just sold the next five years' worth of marketing rights 
    to Disney.
    
    Ugh.
    

    They're going to get a lot of grief for it too. Why not a Canadian
    company?

    
    I guess because Disney controls about 50% of the `free' world.
    (Microsoft controls the other 50%)
    
    They've already put their mouse in the White House.   :^)
    

    So is that the end of Dudley Do-Right cartoons?
    
    Chris

Disney doesn't own the rights to Rocky/Bullwinkle/Dudley/Peabody/Sherman/Etc.,
do they? Last I heard it was licensed to Taco Bell/Pepsi.

I'll be looking for the Yukon Enchilada.

    
    Happy Canada Day.
    
    (Does one say that?)

    
    Yeah, but it's probably "Happy Canada Day, Hoser"... :-)
    
    -b

 Happy Canada day, eh?

     The reason the rights to RCMP toys etc were sold to Disney is because
    the RCMP didn't like seeing cheap looking and poorly manufactured
    souvenirs, etc, reasoning that it reflected poorly on the RCMP. They
    sold the rights to Disney due to Disney's reputation of marketing
    quality items.

    
    ...and their reputation for guarding their market share with the
    tenacity of a pit-bull.
    

    Wot's this about Canada withering?  Eh?
    

    
    
    Speaking of Canada, did you all hear that Disney has purchased the
    rights to all Canadian Mounty marketing?  Why is an American company
    doing this?  Don't they have a Canadian company that cares enough about
    this tradition to sponsor it??
    
    
    
    Terrie
    

    
    Terrie,
    
    See .122
    

More men getting vasectomies, Canadian study finds


(c) 1995 Copyright the News & Observer Publishing Co.

(c) 1995 Reuter Information Service

TORONTO (Jul 12, 1995 - 18:54 EDT) - Older men are assuming
more responsibility for birth control by volunteering to have
vasectomies to prevent unwanted pregnancies, a landmark study of
birth control trends in Canada shows.

"The intention today seems to be favoring male (rather than female)
sterilization," Dr. Richard Boroditsky, one of the study's authors, told
a news conference Wednesday.

The Canadian Contraception Study found that for older Canadian
couples, sterilization is the favored form of birth control.

The study found that two-thirds of married couples between the ages
of 35 and 44 opted for sterilization -- tubal ligation for women and
vasectomy for men.

But the surprise was that compared with a decade ago, men are
assuming more of the burden of birth control by getting vasectomies.

The study found the percentage of middle-aged, married men who
had been sterilized was 30 percent, not far behind the 36 percent of
married women in the same age group.

A similar study in 1984 found that only 8.7 percent of men had been
sterilized while 24.1 percent of women had opted for it. The earlier
study included both married and unmarried men.

"This might indicate that at least some men in committed
relationships are prepared to take more responsibility," said Dr.
Rhonda Love, and associate professor at the University of Toronto's
department of medicine.

Considered the safest form of birth control, the mortality and efficacy
rates for vasectomy are even lower than for female sterilization by
tubal ligation, already considered a very safe procedure.

Vasectomy has a failure rate of 0.15 percent compared to 0.4 percent
for female sterilization, while the death rate is even lower than a
mere 1.5 per 100,000 procedures for female sterilization.

"This could also represent rational decision making on the risk of
procedures because the risk to male partners is less than to female
partners," Love added. "Also, vasectomies are somewhat reversible
where female sterilization is not."

The study also suggested that the trend toward vasectomy should
increase in the coming years.

"Among women intending sterilization, more planned that their
partners would undergo the operation (23 percent) than themselves
(15 percent)," the study said. "If the stated intent of the present
group of women comes to pass, the trend towards an increasing
proportion of male operations should continue."

    re: .136
    
    " have plumbs for a week or two..."
    
    They're going to be level?

    
    If travelling to Toronto, check out:
    
    - http://www.interlog.com/eye
    
    - http://www.muchmusic.com
    
    

    
    
    
    So, can anyone give me some travel tips for my tip to Canada?
    (See the Travel plans note for a list of locations I'll be visiting.)
    
    
    
    
    Thanks!
    
    Terrie
    

    Head north.  
    
    8^)

    
    re: .140
    
    > my tip to Canada?
    
    
     Nope....nope.... I ain't gonna touch that one... nope....
    
    

    
    Halifax, N.S., and St. John's, Nfld. are beautiful cities.
    
    Moncton, N.B. is not.
    

    However, there are 2 National Parks within about 90 minutes' drive of
    Moncton, N.B.:  
    
    Fundy National Park,on the Albert County Bay of Fundy coast: rocky coast, 
    misty woods, a golf course, next to the fishing village of Alma; and 
    Kouchibouguac National Park, on the Kent County Northumberland Strait 
    coast: salt marsh, 16-mile sandy beach with reasonalbly warm water.  
    Both nice places.
    
    -Stephen

    Terrie,
    
     I gave an unsolicited recommendation in the other note, but since you
    asked:
    
     NB: Bay of Fundy, one of the biggest tides around. Try to check out
    the "flower pots".
    
    PEI: Cavindish (SP?) beach and of cource Ann of Green Gables house.
    
    NS: Cabot Trail. We had a car commecial depicting some of the best
    roads (ie did they make the roads for the car or the other way around)
    and they used the California coastal highway, some road in Italy I have
    never heard of, and the Cabot Trail for the visuals. Well worth the
    effort.
    
    NFLD: Gross Mourn as previously mentioned. I also will try to get to
    Cape Spear. The East most point of NA, and supposed to be quite pretty.
    
    Labador ??? Never been, please reply when you get back and let us know
    your thoughts.
    
    							Derek.

    re: .144
    
    
      Oh Darn!!!! Now you're gonna drive the thumper index up with that
    reply!!!!
    

Only if some Fundy replies.

    "Flower Pots" are at Hopewell Cape, between Moncton and Fundy National
    PArk.
    
    -Stephen

    
    
    
>    So, can anyone give me some travel tips for my tip to Canada?
 


   Take plenty of presentation materials with you.    

    
    Canada has 11,000 islands, says `Escape' magazine; it is #3 in the 
    Top 10 island-possessing nations, behind Malaysia (20,000 islands)
    and Indonesia (13,677), but ahead of the Philippines (7,100) and
    Finland (6,080).
    

    Yeah, but...  how many 'a them Canadian islands is
    just iceboigs?		;^)

    So then, that makes Canada rate very high amongst connectivity-challenged 
    nations, eh?
    

    re .150
    
    Oh dear...here we go again !

    It is reported that the Prime Minister and a number of cabinet
    ministers were present at the opening night performance of a touring
    production of "Music of the Night," which consists of performances of 
    Andrew Lloyd Webber songs.
    
    -Stephen

       re .154:
       
       Scandalous.  ?

  The `Stubby' Beer Bottle
  ========================

  The compact beer bottle or `stubby' as it was knicknamed shortly after its
  appearance in 1961, was a superior container from an industrial point of
  view but not from a 1980's marketing perspective.  The `stubby' was intro-
  duced by the Dominion Brewers Association (now the Brewers Association of
  Canada) to cut the high costs of shipping and storage and to standardize the
  size as a result of automation in the manufacturing industry.

  In 1957 the Dominion Brewers Association launched a search for a standard
  beer bottle and, with the help of the Canadian glass industry, a lighter
  bottle.  After a few years of feasibility studies a cone-shaped neck proto-
  type was produced by the DBA's team of engineers and designers.  Market
  research in 1961 revealed that the test bottle was difficult to open due to
  the cone-shaped neck.  The design was duly revised.  The resulting bottle
  was promoted as "the compact" and knicknamed "the stubby".  The bottle was
  not an instant and overwhelming success; in fact, it had a cool reception.
  Some called it a "medicine" bottle; waiters complained that they could not
  carry as many as the old style and that the bottle was hard to open.  In time
  this changed.  As one brewery official said, some people even began to call
  it a "cute" bottle.

  Besides lowering costs of storage and shipping, the design had 3 important
  advantages: the new amber glass protected the beer from harmful ultraviolet
  rays, the shorter neck meant that the bottle broke less frequently allowing
  for longer re-use, and its squat shape also made it tip easily.  Ironically
  it was also these very advantages as well as the influence of foreign markets
  that portended the demise of the stubby.  Between 1982 and 1984, the Canadian
  brewing industry decided to reject the stubbies in favour of the tall bottles
  used by American and European brewers.  The packaging switch was an attempt
  to set one brand of beer against another by bottling in a distinct package 
  with new labelling and promotional support.  The new bottles could effect-
  ively compete with American and European beers and shed the connotations of
  a dark, high calorie ale and lager that had come to be associated with the
  stubby bottle.

  Aesthetics were also being more heavily considered.  The breweries decided
  that a scuffed bottle sitting on a restaurant table was not a good ambass-
  ador for their product, no matter how impressive the contents.  The stubbies
  were used up to 25 times before being discarded, while the new bottles, which
  break more frequently, are only used up to 10 times.  The stubby, finally
  phased out in 1987, is gone*, a victim of the beer packaging wars.  For, as
  Molson vice-president Alex Jupp stated, "The stubby was never designed for
  aesthetic reasons."

    Information taken from Pat Hunter's "The Compact Bottle in Canada", in
    `The Brewer's Newsletter', Vol. 8, No. 6, Summer 1987

    *Footnote:  The stubby is still used to bottle Jamaica's `Red Stripe',
                brewed by Desnoes and Geddes Ltd.

    Well, do I have to?

    Ya' see?  Packaging engineers are responsible for some of the greatest
    contributions to the world and are stewards for safely delivering
    nectar to the masses.  

    I was a "packaging engineer" - or at least I worked at a packaging
    company. Just before I came to Digital. Miserable job. Lasted too
    long.

    
    
    So...here's the big question.....
    
    
    Can I get Sam Adam's Honey Porter in Cananda, or should I bring 
    my own with me?  Can I get Guiness Stout there??
    
    
    
    Terrie
    

    
    Terrie, do not, repeat do NOT bring beer with you into Canada.  It's
    bringing coals to Newcastle, and defective ones at that.
    
    

       > Can I get Guiness Stout there
       
       You can't get Guiness Stout anywhere.

    
    Guinness is available in Canada; imported Guinness on tap in bars or in
    cans in the Liquor Store, and a replicated facsimile is available in 
    bottles in the Beer Store.
    
    Sam Adams Lager and Ale are available at the Liquor Store, but the
    other styles of Sam Adams are not.
    

    
    re: .161
    
    Yeah, but how much dem coals gonna cost up there???
    

    
    Cost is irrelevant where quality is concerned 8^).
    
    

    Well said!

    
    re: .165
    
    What I meant... :) was..
    
     If'n a six pack of Sam Adams, which can be had down here for around
    $5.00 American is cheaper or dearer up there?
    
     If it's, say, twice as much up there, it might behoove one to bring
    their own supply...

    
    Ah, I see.  Well, I don't know that 8^)!
    
    All I know is that the beer in Canada is much better than the beer in
    the U.S., IMHO.  "Regular" beer, that is.  I'm not referring to
    Microbrews.
    
    So I wouldn't mind paying more in Canada for beer because I'd be
    getting something of drinkable quality. 

    RE: 98% + alochol...
    
    In parts of the U.S. it's restricted.  Several states have Everclear
    and other varieties of grain alcohol available.  It was the electric
    part of electric jello squares when I was in school.  
    
    Brian

    Re: 98% alcohol...
    
    Is only avaiable through chemical supply stores, anywhere. Due to
    chemical proerties, not legal. When distilling -OH, it boils off
    separately from the water until it reaches a concentration of 95%. At
    this point, the water and alcohol boil off together, thus the
    concetration cannot be lowered past 95% by distillation alone. Chemical
    processes are required to get it past 95%, thus only chemists are
    interested in it due to excessively increased costs.
    It is quite easy to get 95% alcohol (Everclear Grain) at any NH state
    store.

    Hmmmmmm, well there you go.  Another myth of youth shattered :-/.

    
    
    There's a product imported from Poland called "Spiritus" which is 100%
    pure grain alcohol (well, at least the label says it is...) and I'm
    trying to find out where to get it. The guy at the Polish Deli in
    Manchester, N.H. says he knows where... 
    
     100%... that's 200 proof...
    
    My Dad taught me how to cut it to make (2) 100 proof bottles... The
    stuff is really smooth and goes down easy... no kick.. no sneaking up
    on you.. just a very mellow drunk... No hangover the next morning... no
    headaches... nothing...
    
      I need to get there and buy some (plus Kielbasa of course... ;)
    

When I was a volunteer in a hospital, I had to handle both 95% alcohol (which
I pumped from 55 gallon drums into 1 gallon jugs) and absolute alcohol, which
was stored in 5 gallon containers.  This was about 25 years ago, so my memory
is a little hazy (no, not because I indulged).

I'd watch out.

"Spiritus" is German for _wood_alcohol_.

/john

    
    /john
    
    That may be German, but again, this is a Polish product and the label
    clearly states "grain alcohol"...
    
     Anyway.... I used to drink it, and nothing.. nothing... nothing...
    has.. has... has... (twitch.. twitch... twitch...) ever.... ever...
    ever... hap.. hap... happened... to... to.. to... m..mm... me!!
    

    Also, grain alcohol is (by def) 95% ethanol, 5% water.
    
    It may be a labeling trick (pure grain alcohol is still 95%.)
    
    Also, as mentioned, watch out for methanol. Lethal.
    
    May just be worth your while to buy the Everclear. Still gonna knock
    you on yo' butt!

    
    > It is quite easy to get 95% alcohol (Everclear Grain) at any NH state
    > store.

    Jim, you're jes FULL of interesting information.  I think I'm
    definitely goin' to HAVE TO make it to New Hampster in the VERY NEAR
    future!   :-)

    Dan

    That's why they put state liquor stores on the borders and on the
    interstates. (But don't drink and drive!)

    I can't imagine there being a ton of difference between Everclear (190
    proof) and the 98% stuff (196 proof).
    
    
    I have a question, though.  In the Guinness Book of World Records, the
    most potent beverage is (was, this is from an old book) over 200 proof.
    Since 100% pure alcohol is only 200 proof, how do you get over 200
    proof?  
    
    
    -steve

       > That's why they put state liquor stores on the borders and on
       > the interstates. 
       
       In Hookset, New Hampshire, Liquor Stores are found on I-93,
       northbound or southbound, at the "Safety Rest Area".

    The Sam Adams that we can buy up here is brewed for Canada at 5%.

Spiritus is 190 proof and is not sold in the US. 

My father has a couple bottles brought back whenever he knows 
someone is coming over from the old country. He's got a couple 
stashed away somewhere.

It's smooth, but your memory is alittle off on the hangover 
part...

daryll

    
     Well... the proprietor at the Polish deli says he knows where more
    than one bottle may be had... I hadn't broached the subject of how
    clandestine it might be, so we'll see...

    Quebec is not as retentive as Ontario.

    
    <--- Not only that, they're more easy-going, too!
    

    
================================================================================
NETCAD::WOODFORD "BraceYerselfCanada!!I'm-a-Comin'!" 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
    All border crossings, and any other points of entry, will 
    be on high alert.  
    
    ;^)
    

       
       The Mounties (or Disney, whoever is running the security show up
       there these days) would do well to prepare for a series of
       invasions.

    
    > The Mounties (or Disney, whoever is running the security show up
    > there these days) would do well to prepare for a series of
    > invasions.

    Maybe my biology knowledge is a little rusty, but I didn't think that
    the Mounties would have to be worried about being invaded, I thought
    that Terr..... oh you meant ..... never mind !

    ;->
    Dan

    
    Memo To:  Montreal
       From:  Soapbox
       Subj:  Mz_Deb
    
    mz_deb is coming.  stock up on Brador.
    

    
        Memo To:  Montreal
           From:  Soapbox
           Subj:  Mz_Deb
    
    		Take cover.

    
    Terrie:
    
    When are you heading north?  Reason I ask is, I have maps of Nova
    Scotia and St. John's, Nfld. that I can mail you if you want them.
    
    jc
    

Newfoundland and Labrador Tour (Travel & Tourism) 
       Blair Wentzell and Marine Institute of Memorial University 
       St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada 

       A comprehensive tour of the stunning province of Newfoundland. The tour
       includes tourism information on the Island of Newfoundland and the
       Mainland portion, Labrador. The tour consists of hundreds of full color
       images, 50 html pages of interesting information and multimedia segments
       related to our fair province. A World of Difference ! The creator, Blair
       Wentzell invites all to visit. 

       http://nlweb.ifmt.nf.ca 

    
    
    jc....Thanks for the offer, but I leave tomorrow morning. :*)
    
    
    
    John....thank you for the web pointer. I'll check it out if I
    have time between all my work. :(
    
    
    
    Terrie
    

I'm way behind in notes again, so if someone has already
posted this, I apologize....

Canada has been named by the United Nations as the #1 country
for 3 out of the last 4 years..... unless of course you are
female and then it's only the 9th best place to live.  :-\

    
    
    >Canada has been named by the United Nations
                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    
    
    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!
    

Hey Andy - I thought of that too and was expecting the comment
(thanks for not disappointing). I just found it interesting that
they obviously thought that it was a much better place to live
if you happened to be male!  Course, if I accept your editorial 
comment (which I do) I guess it doesn't really mean much eh?

Chris

    
    >Course, if I accept your editorial comment (which I do) I guess it
    >doesn't really mean much eh?
    
    
      Boy!! You're sharp!!! (For a Canadian)  ;) ;) ;) ;)
    

    
    So, which was the best place to live if you're a female?  Obviously not
    the US.  I need to know if I should be packing for warm or cool climes.
    
    

    
    re: .203
    
    >So, which was the best place to live if you're a female?
    
    In the kitchen...
    
    
    P.S. Don't forget the bare feet....
    

Did the UN use the same rating criteria that Money Magazine used?

    
    Andy darlin', the only thing *I* make for dinner is reservations.
    
    

    I know how to make dinner!
    
    
    
    
    "Yes, that will be to go..."

    Here's part of the article (from the Toronto Star, Aug 18, reprinted
    without permission):
    
    Yes, Canada once again tops the U.N. Development Program's annual
    "human development index", a figure that combines life expectancy,
    education and income.
    
    But even those who compile the U.N. statistics say the annual ranking -
    which has placed Canada on top three times since 1990 - is hardly
    all-encompassing.
    
    "This index does not capture all the elements of quality of life,"
    concedes Normand Lauzon, the U.N. development program official who
    released the report yesterday.
    
    For the record, the top 10 countries this year are Canada, followed by
    the United States, Japan, the Netherlands, Finland, Iceland, Norway,
    France, Spain and Sweden.
    
    But a new gender index looks at the same things as the development
    index does, then factors in inequality in achievement between women and
    men.  Sweden is in first place on the gender scale, followed by
    Finland, Norway, Denmark, the United States, Australia, France, Japan -
    then Canada and Austria.
    
    The main reason for Canada's low rating on the gender index is the
    disparity betwwn men's and women's earnings. In 1992, men took home 71%
    of all income earned in Canada, compared with 29% for women.  In other
    words, for every $100 earned by men, women earned $41. (In Sweden,
    women earned $71 to $100 for men)
    
    Even those who publish the report make it clear they wish journalists
    would pay less attention to the contest to secure top place and focus
    more on the thrust of the report; pages of data and analysis on the
    state of development in the world.
    
    The theme of this year's report, which sets the stage for the fourth
    world conference on women being held in Beijing next month, is the
    progress of women.  One of the key findings is that, around the world,
    the "invisible" contribution of women through unpaid and underpaid work
    is worth $11 trillion annually.
    
    A table on the non-agricultural wages of women compared with those of
    men showed that Tanzania - where women earn 92% of what men do - had
    the best record, followed by Vietnam and Australia.  Canada is in 47th
    place, well behind a number of so-called Third World Countries, with
    women earning only 63% of what men earn for non-agricultural work.
    
    The report states that "for too many women, life is shadowed by a
    threat of violence".  It cites controversial studies from Canada, New
    Zealand, Britain and the United States that say about one woman in six
    is raped in her lifetime.  And it says a third of women in Barbados,
    Canada,and the United States report sexual abuse during childhood or
    adolescence.
    
    The report does note that there have been achievements for women.
    Female life expectancy has increased 20% faster than males' over the
    past two decades.  Women are having fewer children - three live births
    per woman in 1990-95 compared with 4.7 in 1970-75 - giving women more
    choices in life.  And women's literacy increased from 54% of the male
    rate in 1970 to 74% in 1990.
    
    But while doors to health and education are opening, those to economic
    and political opportunity are barely ajar, the report says.
    
    On the 1.3 billion people who live in poverty around the world, 70% are
    women.  Labor-force participation by women has increased only 4% - to
    40% from 36% - since 1970.  And women still occupy only 10% of
    political seats and 6% of cabinet positions.
    
    The report calls for a global plan to ensure women's equality, starting
    with a committment to legal equality within 10 years.  It recommends
    the creation of an international group called World Women's Watch to
    prepare country by country reports on women's progress.
    
    It recommends that violence against women should be declared "a war
    crime" punishable by international tribunal.  And it recommends that a
    30% threshold should be regarded as a minimum share of decision-making 
    positions held by women at the national level.
    
    Finally, it says that development programs should make female
    education, improved reproductive health and equal access to credit top
    priorities

    That's it, I'm getting a sex change and moving to Sweden!

 >>   That's it, I'm getting a sex change and moving to Sweden!

	I predict a very unconvincing result.

    
    re: .210
    
    >I predict a very unconvincing result.
    
    Why don't we wait until he does it... gets back... have him drop trou
    in front of all the boxrabble... and let us decide???

    
    >...have him drop trou...
    
    ...or have her raise skirt?
    

    
    I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm buying stock in razor blade
    companies NOW.
    
    

      actually, now that i think about it, he did have the best legs
      of anyone at your house, debster.  hmm.  ;>

Deb, they use a scalpel for the operation, not a razor blade.

| <<< Note 59.209 by POLAR::RICHARDSON "Firsthand Bla Bla Bla" >>>

| That's it, I'm getting a sex change and moving to Sweden!


	Well.... if you still work for DEC, will you be a BOX BABE? :-)

    
> | That's it, I'm getting a sex change and moving to Sweden!
> 
> Well.... if you still work for DEC, will you be a BOX BABE? :-)
    
    phphphhphphphphptttt
    
    the visual of that belongs in the gak topic !
    
    :-p
    Dan

    Hey Kirby, you mean I don't stand a chance with you?

    
    Hey Glenn...
    
    
    
                        G A K   ! ! ! ! ! ! 
    
    
    
    That answer your question?
    

    Well, then, guess I'll remain a man and stay in Canada for the time
    being.

    Wow! They're going to change the gender of the entire province?
    
    {Johnny Carson Voice} I didn't know that!
    
    

    .222
    Yes, everyone in the northern hemisphere will be in the dog days at the
    same time. 

    
      Gee, Canada has withered ?  Just when I put in for 2 days vacation
     Thursday-Friday, in order to take 4 days in Montreal PQ.
    
      Explain to me again about dropping trou.  Is this withering ?
    
      bb

    We have that 200+ years of common history, created by people of good
    will working hard to come up with compromises that would enable Quebec
    to retain its distinctiveness.  This has worked.  Few, other than
    separatists, would argue either that Canada is a failure as a society
    or that Quebec has been prevented from retaining its identity.
    
    There is also the fact that Separatism is pretty much restricted to the
    ethnic Quebecois.  Quebec itslef is a "multicultural" society, and
    the vast majority of others wish to remain Canadian (as do half or more
    of the ethnic Quebecois, according to polls, depending on how the
    question is phrased.)
    
    Most of the national borders in the world depend on historical factors,
    conquest, etc.  France and the U.K are 2 other multilingual,
    multicultural states, albeit without the safeguards for cultural &
    linguistic minorities that exist in Canada.  Since the conquest of Quebec,
    which happened after the "ethnic cleansing" of Nova Scotia in 1755, these 
    safeguards have existed in 1 form or another.
    
    -Stephen

    >   The point is, it's folly to suggest that Canada has been living
    >   happily as a bicultural or multicultural society for 200 years,
    >   and suddenly some rabble-rousers are trying to stir trouble.
    
     I agree; such a suggestion would be folly.
    
    There've been serious English-French tensions for the whole history of
    the place.  The point is, Quebec has retained its institutions, the
    Church, the civil code, its language, since the Conquest, and without
    having to underground.  Maybe if the Quebecois had been less fiercely
    protective of their institutions & identity this wouldn't have
    happened.  But the current flourishing Quebecois culture developed
    inside the Canadian state.
    
    The French language in Quebec has enjoyed much more protection than
    say the Breton language in France or the Welsh in the U.K.  Thiose
    minorities might have much more reason to develop separatist movements
    than the Quebecois.
    
    -Stephen

    and the Montreal Canadians would have to change their name!

Just so long as "Due South" is OK!

       > Montreal Canadians 
       
       Montreal Canadiens, n'importe quelle langue.
       
       --Mr Topaz

    Maybe she wasn't talking about the team...

    They ain't the Canadians or 
    			Les Canadiens -- they's 
    				Les Habitants or 
    					Da Habs
    nnttm
    

    
    > Da Habs
    
    Also known as "dog meat" when they shows up at da Gaaahhdin....
    
    Sure we never win the game, but we ALWAYS win the fights....
    and when ya get right down to it, what's more important....?
    

    Winning the cup at least once every 7 years. 8^)

    
    >The French language in Quebec has enjoyed much more protection than
    >say the Breton language in France or the Welsh in the U.K.  Thiose
    >minorities might have much more reason to develop separatist movements
    
    "Protection" doesn't always work.  Since the 70's the Brit Gov't has
    reversed their policies on the Welsh language and instigated a system
    of Welsh-only schools, Welsh broadcasting channels and semi-autonomous
    govt.  The use of the language has been rising steadily, outstripping
    the use of Gaelic in Eire (where Gaelic is a protected official language).
    there are now some 250,000 speakers out of a population of about
    2.5 million. 
    
    Wales held a referendum on self goverenment and declined to separate
    from the English parliamentary system and form its own assembly.
    (Early 80's or late 70's).  However, since that date there has been an
    increase in nationalist representation at all levels of government, 
    There are NO Tory representatives in parliament and few at local gov't
    level as of the last election.   It's likely that another referendum
    vote will come up in a few years time.
    
    There are several separatist movements that have been quietly and
    successfully working this change through legal and political channels,
    without confrontation, alienation or use of violence.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    

    >    Sure we never win the game, but we ALWAYS win the fights....
    
    Long as you don't rape anyone...

    
    eerrrr.... It's all guys on the hockey teams soooo far, so the NAG...
    I mean NOW crowd shouldn't get upset at a rape in that situation....

    
    I saw a neat little graph in the paper a while back showing the
    percentage of Canajun players in the NHL.  It's dropped at a steady
    rate since the league was formed, from about 95% to (currently) just
    under 60%.  By the turn of the century, or shortly after, it'll be 
    less than half.
    
    FYI, FWIW.
         

    But how many hockey players does Canada, a pretty small country, supply
    to the world?

       re .244:
       
       1972 was the watershed year for Canada.  Until then, youse guys
       figured that you were known for hockey and wheat, in that order.
       If the Russkies kept winning the Gold Medal and World
       Championship, well, that's because all the decent players were in
       the NHL and were technically ineligible, but everyone knew the
       godless Commies were all pros, anyway.  And any decent AHL team
       could beat them.

       So a little exhibition series got arranged.  4 games in Canada
       (Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg, Vancouver), 4 in the Soviet Union.  
       Team Canada had Dryden and Tony Esposito in goal; Orr, Park,
       Stapleton, and Savard on defens(c)e, Phil Esposito, the Mahovlich
       brothers, Clarke, Mikita, and Cournoyer up front.  (The WHA had
       just started, and the NHL had arranged the exhibition, so Bobby
       Hull et al. were shut out).  And the Russkies had a bunch of
       no-names who just weren't used to the speed and hitting of the
       NHL.  Everyone in Canada expected a laugher, an 8-0 sweep.  

       The first game was Sep 2 in Montreal; a viciously hot a steamy
       early September day.  The Gazette and other papers couldn't write
       enough stories: in additions to predictions of a sweep, they
       wound up interviewing the maids in the Queen E ("the Russian
       players are much neater than the NHL players -- they don't leave
       any clothes on the floor, and they even fold their towels!").

       Tretiak, the Russian goalie (how stupid to have a goalie wear
       20!), was dismal in practice, stopping nothing.  As the game
       began, he wasn't much better; Team Canada scored on 2 of its
       first 3 shots, and the score was 2-0 after 4 minutes.  And then
       the Soviets scored 7 of the next 8 goals.

       Now, it's true that Canada ultimately won the series 4-3-1, the
       final game being tied by Esposito with about 5 mins left, then
       won by Paul Henderson with less than a minute left, but the cat
       was out of the bag:  The Emperor wore no clothes, and Canada was
       no longer dominant in "its" sport.   Wither, Canada.

    
    I think Glenn's point was that Canada does pretty well considering
    the size of the pool to be drawn from.  The U.S. has, what, 10 times
    our population?  The Soviets had maybe 13, 14 times?
    

       
       re .246:
       
       My note, which referenced Glennn's note, actually had nothing
       whatsoever to do with Glennn's note; I just wanted to rant and
       relive the 72 series, arguably the best sports series ever.

>    I think Glenn's point was that Canada does pretty well considering
>    the size of the pool to be drawn from.  The U.S. has, what, 10 times
>    our population?  The Soviets had maybe 13, 14 times?

In 1972, interest in hockey in the U.S. was concentrated in the North.
Presumably there weren't a lot of hockey players in Kazakhstan either.

    I remember that series like it was yesterday. {sigh}
    
    Glennnnnn

       re .249:
       
       > I remember that series like it was yesterday. {sigh}
       
       OK, Glennnnn, let's give it a test: Who was Team Canada's coach?

    
    > I think Glenn's point was that Canada does pretty well considering
    > the size of the pool to be drawn from.  The U.S. has, what, 10 times
    > our population?  The Soviets had maybe 13, 14 times?
    
    Yeah, but Joan, look at all the ICE yous guys got....compare that to
    the little that we have down here.
    
    

    I can't remember who the coach was, I think it was Scotty Bowman.

       Nope, Harry Sinden; John Ferguson was assistant.  Sinden had left
       the Bruins (under still-curious circumstances) to do some other
       stuff after 1970.
       
       (I didn't actually remember this until I peeked in the program,
       which of course I got in the Forum on 2-IX-72)

    
    .247:
    
    Rannnt onnnnnnn, brother  
    Rant on.
    

    
    .251,
    
    You have the technology to *make* ice, I presume...
    
    ;^)
    

    In knew it was either a habs or B's coach. 
    
    Everybody loves Harry Sinden, especially Grapes. ;^)

    >> Everybody loves Harry Sinden, especially Grapes. ;^)
    
    Harry Sinden's daughter was in my 9th grade science class,
    and she was beeeeeeyootiful.  Sat right next to me.  I didn't
    learn much science that year, except about the effects of
    raging 13-year-old hormones firsthand.  She was either shy
    or stuck up, though, because she never talked to anybody.
    I wonder where she ended up...
    
    Chris

    I remember the final game was shown in the afternoon - I was in Grade 6
    and all three grade 6 classes were brought into one room and the
    teachers wheeled an old black and white tv in - you can be sure that no
    teaching was done that day.  It was utter chaos when Henderson scored
    the winning goal. It's my earliest recollection of watching AND
    enjoying a full game of hockey.  Now, like any true hockey fan, I live
    for the fights and Stanley Cup playoff time only!  ;-)

    Well, I was in grade 4, the entire school was watching the game. There
    was a nationwide celebration afterwards. Even in the east end of
    Montreal where I lived everybody was pretty proud to be Canadian.

    What I remember best about that series is how devastated I felt after
    the 1st game.  Henderson's goal to win the series was a great moment, but 
    that 1st game was, as Mr. Topaz noted, a real turning point.
    
    The legendary Foster Hewitt did the play-by-play on tv, demonstrating
    that in 50 years of hockey broadcasting he had never learned to
    pronounce French-Canadian names.
    
    In my high school, the classrooms that didn't have tvs had radios on. 
    It was a remarkable time.
    
    -Stephen

    >The legendary Foster Hewitt did the play-by-play on tv, demonstrating
    >that in 50 years of hockey broadcasting he had never learned to
    >pronounce French-Canadian names.
    
    Perhaps, but did he at last terminate every interrogative
    with "eh?"
    
    -b

    
      Well, Montreal hasn't withered.
    
      bb

    The Bonaventure is in terrible shape, although renovations are under
    way.
    

Preparing for vote, Quebec separatists unveil independence declaration


(c) 1995 Copyright The News and Observer Publishing Co.
(c) 1995 Associated Press

TORONTO (Sep 7, 1995 - 01:36 EDT) -- Mixing poetry with
propaganda, Quebec separatist leaders Wednesday unveiled a
declaration of independence that they hope voters will approve
in a sovereignty referendum expected on Oct. 30.

Read aloud by poet and a novelist at a televised ceremony in
Quebec City, the document is intended to be the preamble to a
soon-to-be-introduced bill that will set the referendum
process in motion.

Opinion polls show voters in the mostly French-speaking
province evenly divided on whether to create an independent
state.

"We, the people of Quebec, through the voice of our national
assembly, proclaim: Quebec is a sovereign country," concluded
the preamble. It was greeted with a standing ovation from
1,000 the province's nationalist elite who packed into a
Quebec theater after a running a gauntlet of anti-independence
hecklers waving Canadian flags.

The premier of the province, Jacques Parizeau, fought back
tears as he joined the applause while an image of Quebec's
flag was projected on stage.

The preamble was drafted by a committee of writers and
politicians based on thousands of submissions from the public.

"It defines what distinguishes us from other people," said
Monique Vezina, president of National Commission on the
Future of Quebec. "It is a declaration of who we are and what
we should become."

Read by poet-singer Gilles Vigneault and author Marie
Laberge, the preamble recounted Quebec's history in often
flowery language and contended that the province had been the
victim of repeated broken promises by English-speaking
Canada.

"It is absolutely impossible to fix things," Vigneault said.
"Canada has continued trivializing this relationship."

The top anti-independence leader in Quebec, Liberal Party
chief Daniel Johnson, ridiculed the preamble as confusing and
unimaginative.

"Quebeckers are entitled to expect something new," he said.
"They are entitled to expect reasons why we should separate
from Canada. ... We still waiting for reasons. None were
presented today."

Parizeau and his allies are expected to make public the text of
the referendum question soon after the provincial legislature
opens a special session Thursday. It is expected to propose
that Quebec assert its independence while at the same time
offering to negotiate a new political and economic relationship
with Canada.

Opponents of independence thus far have taken a low-key
approach to the referendum, focusing their strategy on the
veiled threat that the federal government might be in no mood
for generous bargaining if Quebec breaks away. Potential
problems regarding tax revenues and public debt have been
cited.

Even though the suggested Oct. 30 referendum date is not yet
official, provincial authorities have dispatched 42,000 people
on a door-to-door operation to register voters.

About 85 percent of Quebec's 6.9 million people are
francophone. In the last referendum, in 1980, an independence
initiative was defeated by a 60-40 margin.



    I heard the question read over the radio this morning. It seems very
    ambiguous to me.

    
    dibs on nova scotia.

    I believe the us would get better use out of British Columbia than
    Nouvelle Ecosse.

>    I believe the us would get better use out of British Columbia than
>    Nouvelle Ecosse.

Actually if we were smart we'd grab everything from Alberta west
for the resources, and Nova Scotia for the seafood.

I'd like to see the NWT as a hunting preserve :-}

Amos

    
      Well, nix to Canadian provinces, unless they grovel.  Great place
     to visit.
    
      bb

    Our newest coin (to be released into circulation next year) was
    revealed today - the "twonie" as it is already known will feature a
    polar bear on one side and the Queen on the other.  Course it will
    still only be worth a buck and a half US.  :*/

Has there been a second season produced of "Due South"?  I *need* to know.  It 
was the only program I watched (other than the news etc).

\C

    I believe there has been ma'am.
    
    Thank you kindly.

Mr Richardson you *are* a gentleman.   

    That's very nice of you. Thank you kindly.
    
    {slightly tipping Mountie hat}

{swoon}

<----- HEY!  That's MY line for him!!!!

It's nice to share!

	Ok....

    This troubles me.

re 59.280 
>    This troubles me.

I respect your need to retain your traditions.  I would expect no less of a 
gentleman of your standards.

\C

    
    re: .280
    
    >This troubles me.

<----why?

 >       Our newest coin (to be released into circulation next year) was
 >       revealed today - the "twonie" as it is already known will feature a
 >       polar bear on one side and the Queen on the other.  Course it will
 >       still only be worth a buck and a half US.  :*/
    
    
    You should have put a horse on the obverse.  It would be the only coin
    in circualtion with a horses arse on both sides.
    

    I'm going to go loonie twonie with all that change in my pockets.

    Not that I want more change in my pockets    but
    
    I hope it gets minted as it was displayed.
    
    The coin was gold and silver in colour....thought it looked quite nice.
    
    
    Brian V
    

    Gleened from our local paper.
    You don't have to be nuts to live up here but..........
    
    reprinted without permission from the "Outdoors" column of the Caledon
    Citizen.
    
    		Blue Naugas
    
       In respose to this column's recent warnings about the threatened
    extinction of the Common Nauga, Don Farmer sent along the hide of what
    he calls, in his enclosed note. "the extremely rare Blue Nauga"
       The hide measures only 7"X6" trimmed for commercial use, and as Don
    wrote "as you can see, Blue Naugas are not very big, so many are needed
    to produce a single roll of "hyde." Stamped on the back is a logo and.
    "Genuine Naugahyde-Fine Blue"
       He went on to explain that all to-day's blue naugahyde comes from
    ranch-raised blues-principally from operations in the Yukon. Shortly
    after weaning in November, the Nauga cubs are shaved to the bare skin,
    with additional monthly shavings until late May. These winter months of
    sub-arctic temperature account for for the deep blue, non fading and
    stain-resistant qualities of "Fine Blue Naugahyde"
    
    
    
    joan

    
    <--- This troubles me.
    

    
    ...to say nothing of the fur-bearing trout deep in Lake Superior.
    

    Trout bile, now THERE'S an aphrodisiac! Like a pot of gold at the end
    of the rainbow.

    
    Actually, I know a *foolproof* aphrodisiac...and it's STILL illegal.
    

    Well?????  So what is it all ready???  C'mon, c'mon hurry up!!

    >Trout bile
    
    Have a care - it's Canadian and can make you bile-lingual
    

    That's just specklelation.

    It's true - you'll enhance your sex life in two languages.  You'll
    become a cunning linguist.....
    

    
    .293
    
    THC.  HTH.
    
    ;^)
    

    what !Joan really meant to say was tetrahydrocannabinol.

    Just cuz they lay there out of it doesn't mean they're turned on,
    !joan. /hth

whither away canadian snarf!

    
    .299,
    
    Very interesting, do you have any examples of this?
    

    If Quebec votes Oui this month, Molson is ready with a new beer to
    commemorate Quebec separation:

    

    Molson EX-Canadian

Breakup of Czechoslovakia gets attention in Canada


(c) 1995 Copyright The News and Observer Publishing Co.
(c) 1995 Reuter Information Service

TORONTO (Oct 22, 1995 - 19:54 EDT) - Could Canada go the
way of Czechoslovakia and peacefully break apart?

With public opinion polls showing a chance that Quebec might
vote for separation on October 30, the so-called "Velvet
Divorce" between the Czechs and Slovaks is the subject of
lively debate in Canada.

Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC) television has aired
twice in French and once in English a long documentary
analysing the breakup of former Czechoslovakia in 1993.

It focused on such hot issues in the Quebec debate as what
happened to the currency of former Czechoslovakia, trade
between the Czechs and Slovaks, the impact on the economy of
the smaller partner Slovakia, and the fate of passports.

Predictably, both Quebec nationalists and Canadian federalists
saw in the analysis of Czechoslovakia what they wanted to.

"The federalists say it proves separation is a disaster," said
Michel Cormier, a CBC correspondent who worked on the
documentary. "But some (Quebec) sovereigntists say it shows
that separation can be done."

Canada's national news magazine, Maclean's, published an
article under the headline "The Lessons from Prague,"
beginning with a complaint from a Czech coach that the quality
of ice hockey had deteriorated since the split from Slovakia.

Canadian academics have jumped into the fray, publishing
reams of comparative studies on secession movements around
the world in an attempt to predict what could happen with
Quebec.

A widely quoted book, "The Secession of Quebec and the
Future of Canada," by University of Western Ontario political
scientist Robert Young, reaches back to 1867 and Hungary's
split from Austria; Norway from Sweden in 1905; and Singapore
from Malaysia in 1965, for examples of peaceful secessions.

But the former Czechoslovaka merits a full chapter complete
with a step-by-step analysis of the political jostling that led to
the formal break into the Czech Republic and Slovakia on
January 1, 1993.

Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien referred to
Czechoslovakia twice in a speech last week in the provincial
capital of Quebec City, warning voters not to believe Quebec
separatist Premier Jacques Parizeau's promise that Quebec
could continue to use the Canadian currency after separation.

"Can Mr Parizeau...guarantee that a separate Quebec would
keep the Canadian dollar for longer than 39 days, as was the
case for Slovakia after the separation of Czechoslovakia?"
Chretien asked, referring to the collapse of the Czech and
Slovak monetary union soon after separation.

On the trade issue, separatists have used the case of
Czechoslovakia to counter Chretien's claim that an
independent Quebec would have trouble quickly joining the club
of trading nations, the World Trade Organisation (WTO), and
would therefore find the door closed to its exports.

"The Czech Republic and Slovakia were admitted (to the WTO)
within months (after separation)," Quebec Deputy Premier
Bernard Landry said in a speech last week.

Experts say, however, it would be wrong to read too much into
the experience of the former Czechoslovakia. "There are lots of
differences between Canada and the Czech Republic and
Slovakia," said political scientist Young.

Czechoslovakia had just emerged in 1989 from four decades of
Communist domination, a stark difference to Canada which has
been a stable democracy since its formation in 1867.

Czechoslovakia was in the throes of converting to a market
economy from a backward system of central planning, while
Canada is a member of the Group of Seven rich industrial
nations.

The national institutions of Czechoslovakia, from political
parties to the courts and Parliament, were weak while
Canada's are strong and well developed.

And Czechoslovakia had only a small national debt, while
Canada has one of the highest debt loads of major industrial
countries, and the red ink would have to be divided between
Quebec and Canada.



Chretien supports Quebec as 'distinct society'


(c) 1995 Copyright The News and Observer Publishing Co.
(c) 1995 Reuter Information Service

MONTREAL (Oct 22, 1995 - 19:54 EDT) - Canadian Prime
Minister Jean Chretien, apparently trying to answer criticism he
opposes special status for French-speaking Quebec, said on
Sunday that he supports official recognition of the province as a
"distinct society."

In a joint statement issued in Montreal with Quebec provincial
Liberal leader Daniel Johnson, Chretien, who is in New York for
the United Nations 50th anniversary celebrations, repeated his
support for special protections in the Canadian constitution for
the French language and culture.

"We state without equivocation that Quebec is a distinct
society," Chretien and Johnson said. "We note that both of us
supported the inclusion of this principle in the Canadian
constitution every time Quebec asked for it."

The unusual joint statement seemed to be an attempt by
Chretien to slow the momentum of the Quebec secession
movement ahead of the October 30 referendum on Quebec
separation from Canada.

Latest opinion polls show the separatists pulling slightly ahead
among decided voters.

Many Quebec voters say they do not want an independent
country but are frustrated the Canadian constitution does not
include special protections for their language and culture.

Two attempts to revise the Canadian constitution to give
Quebec such special status failed, in 1990 and 1992.

Separatist leader Lucien Bouchard ridiculed the statement from
Chretien, saying it was not a serious offer.

Speaking to several thousand supporters in Quebec City on
Sunday, some waving Quebec flags and chanting "We want a
country," Bouchard urged them to vote for separation so that
Quebec can negotiate with Canada as an equal partner.

Chretien has said that a vote for sovereignty is a one-way
ticket out of Canada.



Out of curiosity, is there a significant population of French-speaking people
in Canada outside of Quebec?  Are there areas (outside Quebec) which most of
the people speak French?  How about English population/areas within Quebec?

I'm curious about how many people will wind up in the "wrong" country if
Quebec does seceed, and if minor adjustments to the border would help.

    Well, the Cree nation will be giving the fledgling country a very hard
    time. Kiss a large part of the province good bye.

    
    Northern Ontario, parts of Manitoba, and a good portion of New Brunswick
    all have communities that are largely (and perhaps mostly) francophone.
    
    New Brunswick is officially bilingual.
    

       
       > How about English population/areas within Quebec?
       
       Yep, particularly in Montreal (Westmount, especially) and in the
       Eastern Townships, especially immediately to the north of the
       point where Quebec, NH, and VT meet.  Many of the anglophone
       residents trace their history back to the American Revolutionary
       days -- they were loyalists, wanted no part of the US, and moved
       to what was then British No. America.  Another good chunk of the
       anglophone population showed up just after the US civil war, when
       disaffected people from what had been the CSA moved out of the US
       and into Canada.
       
       As Richardsoz points out, the biggest issue might well be the
       First Nations peoples, several of whose representatives have
       indicated that they want no part of an independent Quebec.  If
       Quebec has the right to secede from Canada, the Natives reason,
       then they surely have the same right to secede from Quebec.
       
       Kind of difficult to argue with that, actually.

Fears of Quebec secession rock financial markets


(c) 1995 Copyright The News and Observer Publishing Co.
(c) 1995 Associated Press

TORONTO (Oct 23, 1995 - 22:12 EDT) -- Fears that Quebec
will vote for independence next week shook Canadian financial
markets Monday, and one federalist leader said the province
would plunge into "a black hole" if it voted to secede.

The Canadian dollar, which traded last week at nearly 75 U.S.
cents, tumbled to just under 73 cents as traders fretted over
the possibility of a "Yes" victory in the Oct. 30 referendum.

The Toronto Stock Exchange also quavered, suffering the sixth
biggest one-day loss in its history. Its composite index
dropped nearly 3 percent. Nationwide banks and the
Montreal-based conglomerate Imasco Ltd. were hit especially
hard.

"Referendum fears dominate the financial markets," Sherry
Cooper, chief economist at investment dealer Nesbitt Burns,
told a conference call of clients and staff.

"That's what you call political instability," said Prime Minister
Jean Chretien, in New York for the United Nations' 50th
anniversary ceremonies. "It will be a lively week."

Chretien, a native Quebecker who staunchly opposes
secession, said he remained optimistic despite recent polls
showing a slight lead for the separatists. He noted federalists
won by a 60-40 margin in 1980 despite final opinion polls
showing a tight race.

One of the leaders of the federalist campaign, Progressive
Conservative Party chief Jean Charest, urged his fellow
Quebeckers to weigh their vote carefully.

"The choice and the consequences are overwhelming for
people and are irreversible," Charest said in Ottawa. "We'd be
in a black hole. Where would it go from there?"

In Quebec City, capital of the mostly French-speaking
province, separatists were buoyant after one of their biggest,
liveliest rallies of the campaign Sunday night.

More than 4,000 people waved flags, sang nationalist songs
and chanted, "We want a country."

At one point, the mayor of Quebec, Jean-Paul L'Allier, asked
the crowd for silence.

"Listen to your heart beat," he said. "And you can hear, at the
same time, the beat of your new country."

Many financial analysts predict major economic upheaval if
Quebec votes to secede, including a further plunge for the
Canadian dollar, higher interest rates, and a possible exodus of
businesses from Quebec.

The head of a leading Quebec polling firm, Jean-Marc Leger,
said the dollar's weakness may persuade some Quebeckers
that a "Yes" victory would be too costly.

"I'm sure people will think twice when they see the dollar go
down,"' Leger told the telephone news conference organized
by Nesbitt Burns.

Lucien Bouchard, one of the two top leaders of the separatist
campaign, said the financial markets would be reassured if
Chretien publicly pledged to negotiate an economic partnership
with an independent Quebec. So far, Chretien has refused to
discuss the possibility of a "Yes" victory.

French President Jacques Chirac, interviewed Monday night
on CNN's "Larry King Live," was pressed by King about
whether France would recognize Quebec if the separatists
win.

"If the referendum is positive, the government will recognize
the fact," Chirac said. Asked if that meant France would
recognize Quebec under those conditions, Chirac said: "Yes."



    Lucien Bouchard had the nerve to say that there really is no proof that
    there is a correlation between the volatility of the dollar and markets
    and the referendum.

    That's the dumbest thing I've heard that guy say.

    
    Lucien In The Sky With Diamonds
    

What would happen to the Atlantic Provinces in the event of secession? 
Would they not be cut off from the rest of "Canada"? Would there be a "East
Canada"?

    Well, there's always the northwest passage.

In the event of secession, Quebec would not get all of the current
province of Quebec.  Much of the northern part would be turned over
to Newfoundland (Labrador), Ontario, and/or the Northwest Territories.

/john

    	I've heard that if Quebec is successful at secession, then the
    	southeastern Canadian provinces might consider joining the United 
    	States rather than sit relatively isolated from the rest of
    	Canada.

    Yeah, like we're about to have a francophone state.

       huh?

    CALLME::MR_TOPAZ
    
    
    >>If Quebec has the right to secede from Canada, the Natives reason, then
    >>they surely have the same right to secede from Quebec.
    
    >>Kind of difficult to argue with that, actually.
    
     You have never met one of our seperatists have you. The borders of
    Canada are drawn with pencil. The borders of Quebec are cast in stone.
    
    Logic has no place in Nation building (or tearing down) it seems. As a
    result it is "Kind of difficult to argue" with these people.
    
    							Derek.
    

       Mercredi says Aborignal Peoples have right to separate
       
       OTTAWA (CP)--If Canada is divisible, so is Quebec, aboriginal
       leader Ovide Mercredi warned Tuesday.
       
       "The Quebec people are claiming that they can secede from Canada
       and maintain their territorial integrity," Mercredi told an
       aboriginal forestry conference.
       
       "Our people are saying: `Wait a minute, your governments have
       recognized that we have pre-existing rights. That's why we have a
       land claims process.'-"
       
       Mercredi, grand chief of the Assembly of First Nations, said that
       process is not included in Quebec's sovereignty bill.
       
       "If we want to keep our land, we will keep our land. If we want to
       take our land and remain in Canada, we'll take it and remain in
       Canada. If we want to take it and join forces with Quebec, we'll
       take it and join forces with Quebec--but it will be our choice."

    
    Even apart from the `Quebec' issue, I would support an aboriginal state, 
    if that's what they wanted.
    

    CALLME::MR_TOPAZ
    
     Yes indeed, that is what the aboriginal people of Quebec say. Try
    finding any seperatist that says the same thing.
    
    							Derek.

    
      We have an aboriginal state out west, I think.
    
      bb

From: Dave.Leibold@f730.n259.z1.gryn.org (Dave Leibold)
Date: 23 Oct 95 22:18:04 -0400
Subject: If Quebec Leaves Canada ...


Canada is at the crossroads; Quebec residents vote in a 30th October
referendum that will determine whether the province will split from
Canada and become a nation in its own right. The ballot question boils
down to whether Quebec should be sovereign (with some secondary
wording regarding negotiations with Canada thrown in). The "Yes" side
represents the separatists who dream of their own country; the "No"
folks are the federalists, who argue that Quebec can win with Team
Canada.

What would happen to the telecommunications scene if the Yes side wins
and Quebec subsequently takes off?

Quebec would have assert its own authority over telecommunications and
broadcast matters -- there will be no more Canadian Radio-television
and Telecommunications Commission (CRTC) for them to worry about.  The
CRTC itself would continue to deal with the remaining Canada (assuming
other regions don't break away), although its headquarters in Hull (in
Quebec) would no doubt move to the Canadian side (likely across the
river to Ottawa).

Bell Canada is the local telco in most of Quebec, and has corporate
headquarters in Montreal (as do a number of other Canadian companies
like Canadian National Railways). Given Canada's restrictions on
foreign ownership of telecommunications companies, Bell may have to
move its headquarters into Ontario unless specifically exempted by law
as is a few cases such as BC Tel (under GTE ownership). Quebec may or
may not restrict foreign ownership in telecommunications interests.
Bell may still be able to operate a Quebec division (although it
obviously couldn't be called Bell Canada). Exchange, area code and
administrative boundaries would make such a corporate shuffle
relatively trivial.

A recent news report indicated that Hydro-Quebec, the power utility,
may be interested in a stake in Unitel, Canada's #2 long distance
carrier. With Quebec independence and the aforementioned Canadian
ownership restrictions, that may be thwarted. In theory, Hydro-Quebec
could pick up the Quebec side of Bell Canada, though.

Fonorola is the only other Quebec-based long distance carrier I'm
aware of (they list a Montreal address, at least on my phone bills).
They offer service throughout Canada today; having a new country
happen around their headquarters will also have some interesting and
unpredictable consequences.

Quebec Telephones and Sogetel are independent telcos in Quebec that
serve particular areas of Quebec. Under separation, they would be
affected by changes to companies they connect with (long distance
carriers, Bell, Teleglobe) and they would answer to a Quebec regulator
instead of the CRTC.

The Canadian local telcos and their associated long distance services
comprise the membership in Stentor (formerly Telecom Canada, formerly
Trans-Canada Telephone System). Whether telcos in an independent
Quebec would remain in Stentor depends on how 1) the remaining
Canadian telcos in Stentor feel; 2) how the telcos in the Quebec would
feel (they could establish their own association); 3) what the CRTC
and/or other government bodies would allow Stentor to do with Quebec.

Teleglobe is the monopoly international carrier -- it is based in
Montreal.  The monopoly status of Teleglobe is under review by the
Canadian government, for one thing. The foreign ownership rules are
another thing. Teleglobe may move its headquarters out of Montreal,
and provision of international service with Quebec will need to be
settled.

Competition -- keeping a competitive long distance system would
virtually require Quebec to open up foreign ownership given that the
major competitors (Unitel, Sprint Canada) have headquarters in
Toronto. But if ownership is open to Canadians, American interests
would not stand for any preferential treatment of Canadian interests
and would want in themselves. Of course, they'd have to do business in
French.

Meanwhile, the competing long distance carriers in the remaining
Canada would have to face life without Montreal, presently Canada's
second-largest metropolitan area. Geographically, the Atlantic
provinces would be isolated from Ontario and the western provinces --
would carriers like Unitel be allowed to keep their Atlantic
connections through Quebec? And what would American interests think
about Quebec allowing another country's circuits (ie. Canada's) while
not allowing U.S. facilities?

A sovereign Quebec national government gets a crash course on telecom
regulation. A new country's attempts to duplicate the complex responsi-
bilities of the CRTC may not be a pretty sight.

An independent Quebec could have its own country code assigned by the
ITU.  But given the declared intentions of separatist leaders to keep
business links with Canada and the U.S., and noting that changing
dialing patterns is expensive and disruptive, the likely result is
that Quebec will stay within the North American Numbering Plan
(country code 1). The NANP already includes many separate nations, so
adding another nation is an incremental task.

There are also the separate lists of telex and data network codes;
Quebec could opt for separate codes in these cases, even if there
isn't a separate telephone country code. The separated Czech and
Slovak republics, for instance, still share telephone country code 42,
but have separated the telex country codes.

That's a very speculative overview of some of the telecom-related
issues that separatists would face should they be successful next
Monday. The most recent polls show the Yes and No sides either tied or
the separatist side with a slight lead... obviously a colossal
nail-biter with no clear-cut margin of victory expected for either
side. Either way, these parts of North America won't be the same.


Fidonet: Dave Leibold 1:259/730@fidonet.org 
Internet: Dave.Leibold@f730.n259.z1.gryn.org

Waaaahhhhh - I didn't even think about how the Telco situation would
change - my job will become a big throbbing massive headache!  It has
taken me 5 months, but I just today got the fantastic news that Bell
agrees with me and Digital does NOT owe them the $149,364.22 that they
said we did.  Too bad I don't get a percentage of the savings - I think
my manager was going to go for a 50/50 split if this issue hadn't resolved 
itself soon. We have a lot of circuits residing in Quebec and I'm 
going to have nightmares thinking about the administrative horrors that
await me.... thanks John :-(

    This is nothing compared to all the cross border work that goes on
    between Quebec and Ontario and all of the trade, and all of the
    banking. Lawyers are going to get awfully rich.

re .306:

Is this because the natives are saying "if you can secede from Canada, we can
secede from you", or do they trust an independent Quebec less than Canada as
it exists now, as far as their rights/land/whatever?

re .307:

Would French-speaking areas of New Brunswick and Ontario likely want to
try and join Quebec should it secede if adjacent (are they?) ?  I assume a
Quebec-less Canada is likely to stop bilingual programs and remove bilingual
laws.

re .314:  Is this because that's how the referendum is written, that is
someone drew a line around mostly-French Quebec, lets' vote?  A quick fix
to try to be sure a Quebec-less Canada isn't split into 2 nonadjacent
pieces?

    
    .326

>Would French-speaking areas of New Brunswick and Ontario likely want to
>try and join Quebec should it secede if adjacent (are they?) ?

    My feeling is `no', but the media hasn't been playing this angle very
    much, so it's hard to say.  I think they *might* like the idea of
    having a francophone nation close enough to emigrate to easily, if
    they so desired.

    EVMS::MORONEY
    
     Natives: As far as the natives are concerned, Quebec does not have a
    history of treating them as well as Canada has. I also suspect that they
    are not thrilled about being a part of a nation comprised of "The
    People" when they are not considered to be part of "The People". Also
    the treaties they have signed are made by Canada, Quebec, and the
    Natives. As far as they are concerned one party cannot dictate
    conditions to the other two.
    
     French outside Quebec: I have seen NO indication that there is any
    sympathy for the seperatists. I have seen some pretty sever backlash in
    NB from francophones. I suppose they cannot understand the problem
    since they have maintained their culture in every province outside
    Quebec, and see no "cultural" reasons for seperation.
    
    Land returned to Canada: The primary reason the land should be returned
    to Canada is that it was never historically part of Quebec. It was
    given to Quebec at the end of the last century, and the beginning of
    this one by the government of Canada. It is not theirs to take. The
    Natives have a stronger cliam to the land then does Quebec. I believe it
    was formerly known as Rupert's Land.
    
    							Derek.

    
      Oui ou non aujourdui pour toutes les Quebecois.
    
      bb

    
    It will be "non", IMHO.
    

    I'm not so confident. 8^/

    This is the last chance for the Oui side though, in my opinion. If they
    can't do it this time, they'll never be able to do it. The demographics
    of Quebec are changing.

    GAAS::BRAUCHER
    
    >>      Oui ou non aujourdui pour toutes les Quebecois.
    
     but not all Quebecers.
    
    					Derek.

    
    Vote oui.  It'll give Texans a reason to follow.
    
    Based on goods and services produced, if Texas were an independent
    country, it would rank 11th in the world.  All of Canada is number 8.
    I think we should secede as well.
    
    ;^)

    I hope they vote oui, if only to provide a precedent, so that when
    U.S. states start seceding during Clinton's second term, he'll be
    less justified to start Civil War II.
    
    Chris

    Is it still possible for a state to secede from the union? Someone was
    telling me that secession was illegal in the states. I find this hard
    to believe.

    I thought that Texas could? Isn`t in their agreement with the U.S. that
    they could return to being their own country under certain conditions?

re .336:

I've heard a lot of weird things about Texas statehood.  One was it could
secede (and related, they lost that right when they _did_ secede during the
Civil War and were readmitted under less favorable terms), another was it could
split up into as many as 5 states without permission from the Federal gummit.
(and again heard they lost this right when readmitted)

re .333:

But if North Dakota seceded, it would be the third largest nuclear power in
the world (may have dropped a few notches since the breakup of the USSR)

>              <<< Note 59.331 by POLAR::RICHARDSON "CPU Cycler" >>>

>    This is the last chance for the Oui side though, in my opinion. If they
>    can't do it this time, they'll never be able to do it. The demographics
>    of Quebec are changing.

	if at first you don't secede...

    
    Anyone hear anything yet on the vote??
    

Final pre-referendum polls were too close to tell.

Exit polls are not allowed.

Polls close at 8pm EST, and results should be known within an hour.

/john

    Well, I heard Peter Mansbridge (CBC Anchor) say "Whither Canada" a
    couple of times. 8^)

    Anyhow, it was a close close race. Still with 97.5% of polls in
    it's 50.45% NO and 49.55% YES.

    Clearly the YES side has won the campaign but it wasn't enough to with
    the referendum. 

    If you're into trading dollars, by Canadian ones for a while.

    The east end of Montreal tipped it in the NO favour which is mostly
    Francophone and voted YES in 1980. I used to live there.

    I'm relieved but the politicians have the job of fitting a square peg
    into a round hole and resolve Canada's constitutional dilemma.

    Another interesting point was, roughly 92% voter turn out. Remarkable
    in western terms.

This is cute.  Nice |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| logo on each page.

	http://src.worldlinx.com/live/net126.htm

/john

With 99.96% of the vote in, it's 50.57% NO and 49.43% OUI.

/john

    Heard a figure about an hour ago that there were over 76,000 wasted
    ballots.  Considering the fact that there are only approx. 50,000 votes
    separating the two sides, I don't think this is over yet.  What could
    be so hard about making an "X"?
    
    Final tally:
    
    50.6 No
    49.4 Yes

    
    	Something like 4.3million people voted. A 50,000 vote difference
    tells me that the separatists will be back soon....
    
    
    jim
    
    p.s. - heard about 1000 people rioted for a short while in Montreal,
    but otherwise the country was quiet.
    

    93.5% turn out. Amazing.
    
    Mr. Parizeau made a big blunder in showing his true colours last night.
    A speech that pretty much ended his political career. He said that
    money and the ethnic vote kept the French from winning.

Rumour has it that he was drunk at the time 

    He didn't do his cause any good. Had he said something like that before
    the vote, it would have been 60-40 for the no side.

    I am happy to see a united Canada.  Congrats on the continued unity. 
    
    

	So, when do they vote again?

    They can't hold another one in this current mandate so probably not
    until 1999 provided they win another provincial election.

    USA Today article on the referendum:
    
    http//www.usatoday.com/news/index/nque001.htm

    
    The slim margin was disappointing; no real victory for either side.
     

    	I'm surprised that all it takes is a simple majority vote
    	for this.
    
    	Had the separatists won by 1% instead of lost, I wouldn't want
    	to be in the new government that had to deal with nearly 50% 
    	of the population having already tallied disapproval for it.

    Listen, please let's keep the dialog worthy of civilized people here.
    
    Now consider the following.  Here we have a nation which is considered
    the US' biggest trading partner, correct?  With the understanding my
    knowledge is limited on the situation in Quebec, it can potentially
    serve as a commentary on the destructiveness of a multiculturalist
    society.  Notice I didn't say a diverse society but a society that
    insists on retaining the elements of an old culture and hindering the
    cohesiveness of a nation.
    
    My understanding is that Quebec would go from being a part of the
    biggest trade partner with the US to the 13th biggest trade partner. 
    My understanding is that Quebec has internal problems with the language
    situation, which of course supports my disdain for bilingual education
    here in the United States.  And of course such a move to secede from
    Canada is further proof that you cannot FORCE peoples of different
    cultures to live together, that you cannot ASSUME that peoples who
    don't want to subscribe to one national language are going to work
    together in a good relationship.
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 59.356 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal" >>>

	Jack, let's start here:


| With the understanding my knowledge is limited 


	We'll end here..... :-)

    > Listen, please let's keep the dialog worthy of civilized people here.
    
    What ? And spoil all the fun ?

    
    Glen, that was a cheap shot.....
    

	Dan....it would only be cheap if it were true.... hmmmm.... maybe you
have a poi...nah! :-)

    Okay, to hell with it!
    
    Canada, implementing multiculturalism and destroying a nation!  What a
    wonderful concept.  
    
    Now if the same thing were going on over in Africa and I brought it up,
    Mr. Topaz et al would be reeking destruction upon my head for my lack
    of synsytyvyty.
    
    -Jack

    
      dk2 - a ttwa : what would be an "expensive shot" ?
    
      bb

    MKOTS3::JMARTIN
    
    >>Canada, implementing multiculturalism and destroying a nation!
    
    
     If you look deep enough, you will see that it is anti-multiculturalism
    people that are the root of the problem.
    
    							Derek.

    American cohesiveness had its price, a civil war with over 600,000
    casualties. After that war, the united states declared war on the First
    Nations. After that war, after that war, after that war.......

    The fact that Canada encouraged multiculturalism is what kept the YES
    side from winning yesterday. Canada is doing just fine without all your
    wonderful American ideals. We've formed our own thank you very much. I
    don't care what Newtyism you're harping on about Jack, you just don't
    know your ass from your elbow on the subject of Canadian unity.

    
    re: .363
    
    >The fact that Canada encouraged multiculturalism 
    
    So why such a close vote then, Glenn??
    

   ZZ     you just don't
   ZZ     know your ass from your elbow on the subject of Canadian unity.
    
    Yeah...like....isn't that pretty much what I said when I began? 
    Like...Glenn is throwing a hissy fit because I brought up yet a
    controversial issue again!  
    
    -Jack

    
      But, Jack.  The two cultures were there before there WAS a Canada.
     Quebec was CONQUERED in war, and the French suffered the indignities
     losers can expect.  Some fled to New England.
    
      The USA situation is quite different.  We IMPORTED foreign workers
     intentionally, and required them to swear allegance to our country
     (and culture), not their old one, as an ante.
    
      I AGREE with you, this allegance ought to require demonstration,
     including the learning of English.  But that's not the same as
     a conquered populace, such as the native Americans.  Canada was
     schizophrenic FROM BIRTH.  We weren't - we're SELF-destructing.
    
      bb

    Thanks for clearing that up!  I understand better now and understand
    that nothing is black and white (no pun intended).  
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 59.368 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal" >>>

| I understand better now and understand that nothing is black and white 

	My screen is right now.....

RE: 59.367 by GAAS::BRAUCHER "Frustrated Incorporated"

> The USA situation is quite different.  We IMPORTED foreign workers 
> intentionally, and required them to swear allegance to our country (and 
> culture), not their old one, as an ante.

Native Americans and Blacks excluded,  of course.  They don't matter.  

How nice.


Phil

    
      Aw, jeepers, Phil, I can't summarize US history for Jack in two
     paragraphs.  I DID mention that native Americans are in a similar
     relationship to the USA as Quebecois to Canada.  It isn't a result
     of voluntary immigration, which is a contract, but conquest.  The
     proper consequence of war is a just not the same as the proper way
     to handle voluntary immigration.  And slavery is very different
     from either, since presumably slaves never wanted to be here at all,
     but were here so many generations that it became impractical for them
     to return.  You're asking too much of any analogy when so much of
     the contingent history is complicated and very different.
    
      bb

    SOLVIT::KRAWIECKI
    
    <<    So why such a close vote then,
    
     To start with, 35% of the "yes" vote was from people who thought they 
    would retain the Canadian citizenship, passport, dollar, and send
    representitives to Ottawa.
    
    These "yes" supporters don't look like true seperatists to me.
    
    You can ask why they voted yes when it was explained that the yes win
    would cause them to loose most of the above, but I can't answer, because
    it makes no sense to me.
    
    								Derek.

    
    re: .372
    
    >To start with, 35% of the "yes" vote was from people who thought they
    >would retain the Canadian citizenship, passport, dollar, and send
    >representitives to Ottawa.
    
     Where did this "thought" come from? Was it a media spin? Are Canadians
    as gullible as Americans??
    

>    You can ask why they voted yes when it was explained that the yes win
>    would cause them to loose most of the above, but I can't answer, because
>    it makes no sense to me.

We have them here in the States, too. They voted for Ronald Reagan because
he was that nice young movie star.

    SOLVIT::KRAWIECKI
    
     This "thought" was provided by the seperatists when it became clear
    that a "Canada IN/OUT" question would loose in a heartbeat.
    
    					
    							Derek.

    
    
    So... you are as gullible as the Americans!!!!
    

    Jack:
    
    No, it was because inflation and the misery index were in double
    digits!
    
    -Jack

    
>>    So... you are as gullible as the Americans!!!!

    you expect him to believe that?    

Yes, but there were other choices at the Republican National Convention
in 1980, Jack.

    SOLVIT::KRAWIECKI
    
    >>    So... you are as gullible as the Americans!!!!
    
     If we were that gullible, we would BE Americans.
    
    
    					Derek.

    
    re: .378
    
    Well Di... he need only look at that 35% figure and go from there!!

    
    >If we were that gullible, we would BE Americans.
    
    Yes, but, only 35% of you... ;)
    

  .381 i hate explaining jokes.  please don't make me do it.

    
    
    re: .383
    
    Di.... I got it... I really did... Ijust didn't want to let go of the
    thread just then... ;)
    

   .384  i knew that was coming.

    
    re:.362
    
    > dk2 - a ttwa : what would be an "expensive shot" ?
    
    bb, it's a shot that costs a lot.  For example, you encounter a
    bone-head with a big mouth surrounded by a bunch of his friends.  You
    are threatened by said bone-head.  You realize that if you take a shot
    at him you are gonna get the $#!+ kicked outta you.  You take the shot
    at him.  You get the $#!+ kicked outta you.  
    
    That's an "expensive shot".
    

    The vote was close because the separatist side wooed the moderates
    by saying "If you vote YES then we will have bargaining power in Ottawa
    to shape a new partnership with Canada." If it had been a simple
    OUI/NON to separate from the country, the vote would have probably been
    60-40 as it was back in 1980.

    Nobody in Canada is happy with the current federal system and everyone
    is looking for a renewed federalism which gives more power to the
    provinces. A lot of the people who voted yes fell into this category.

    He decided to go out in a blaze of glory. He didn't even get that
    right.

I was reading the actual question yesterday.

Those separatist dudes wanted out of Canada but to stay in the Commonwealth!

I don't remember whether it said whether they wanted to be a republic
or a constitutional monarchy.

Long live the Queen.

/john

    Hear that Glen? John wishes you a long life!

Let 'em live, but boil 'em in oil.

Live long and crisper.


\C

>Sender: c-news-approval@world.std.com
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: Local GlobalPublishing <jessepub@lglobal.com>
>
>                        Foreign Correspondent
>
>                      Inside Track On World News
>            By International Syndicated Columnist & Broadcaster
>                 Eric Margolis <emargolis@lglobal.com>
>
>                          ,,ggddY"""Ybbgg,,
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>           `8,                     ,d8888888baaa       ,8'
>            `8,                    888888888888'      ,8'
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>                "Yba                 `888888P'   adY"
>                  `"Yba,             d8888P" ,adP"'
>                     `"Y8baa,      ,d888P,ad8P"'
>                          ``""YYba8888P""''
>
>
>Weep
>
>by
>Eric Margolis 26 Oct 95
>
>Look at Canada and weep. Here is one of the world's
>wealthiest, finest nations, facing bankruptcy and
>dissolution largely because of political and economic
>mismanagement.
>
>Other nations have had to contend with  invaders, crushing
>poverty, or natural disasters. Canada's only scourges have
>been the stunning ineptitude of its politicians, and its
>ruinous welfare state.  If Quebec decamps, the blame will
>lie as much with the heirs of Trudeau's socialism as with
>Lucien Bouchard and Jacques Parizeau.
>
>Passengers, even emotional Quebeckers, don't take to leaky
>lifeboats in stormy seas unless their ship is foundering. 
>And foundering it is.  Canada teeters on the verge of
>bankruptcy, barely able to service its crushing $55 billion
>foreign debt.  The socialist welfare state created by
>Trudeau and expanded by his successors, now gobbles up at
>least 50% of the nation's economic activity.  Government is
>quite literally devouring Canada.
>
>The nation is racked by high, chronic unemployment, punitive
>taxes, and a crumbling currency precisely because big
>government is sucking up the country's economic lifeblood. 
>Big government inevitably means a small economy.
>
>Political and economic mismanagement kill more nations than
>nationalism.  We have seen nation after nation in which
>economic stress transforms  into violent eruptions of
>nationalism. Canada is the latest, and I think
>saddest,example.
>
>Yugoslavia was the most dramatic. Soaring inflation and
>unemployment, uncontrollable government deficits, and
>shortages of consumer goods mutated into tribal and
>religious dementia. These were skilfully exploited by the
>Serbian demagogue, Slobodan Milosevic, to enhance his
>political power.
>
>Hard economic facts often underlie fiery nationalism.  
>Belgium's wealthy Flemish north wants to separate from the
>poor, French-speaking south.  The better-off Czechs were
>eager to ditch the much less prosperous Slovaks.  Spain's
>booming Catalonia wants no part of the impoverished south,
>and threatens to abandon Spain.
>
>These nationalist-separatist movements occured - by no
>coincidence - in nations where incompetent governments had
>debauched their economies, drained treasuries, and were
>resorting to smoke and mirrors to sustain unsustainable, but
>popular social programs.
>
>If Canada today were the enormously prosperous nation that
>would be seeking to abandon ship.  Were Canada the rich
>nation that it used to be 25 years ago - with a dollar worth
>more than the American dollar - Quebec separatism would be
>an irritant, not be a mortal threat.  Lack of economic hope,
>and lack of jobs, are what impel many Quebeckers to ditch
>Canada.
>
>There are no new jobs in industry because government has
>sucked dry the economy's vital, employment-creating forces. 
>Each non-productive government bureaucrat costs two
>productive jobs in the private sector. Taxes are near
>punitive levels.  Entrepreneurs are fleeing Canada with
>their money.
>
>The Canadian dollar, once strong as the Swiss franc, has
>become a wampum.  This week in Detroit, a man called my
>Canadian dollars, `garbage money.' He might just as well
>have spit on the Canadian flag.  This is how low two
>generations of  socialist politicians have driven Canada.
>
>Today, Canada runs for the benefit of its governing
>bureaucracy.  Civil service unions are the real masters of
>the nation, not the taxpayers who labor more than half of
>their working year to support them. This once majestically
>wealthy nation, this former  Eldorado of economic
>opportunity, has become economically invalid, an effeminate
>North American version of dreary, socialist Sweden.
>
>The old adage that Canada is `rich by nature; poor by
>government' is never more true than at this hour of maximum
>peril.
>
>Better to ditch socialist Ottawa than Quebec. A government
>should die for its country, not a country for the sake of
>its government.
>
>Most divorces are caused by money problems,  not infidelity.
>Socialism has done as much as regional nationalism to
>undermine this great country and threaten to break its
>mighty heart.
>
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Gee, I was really worried until I read it came from "The Sun". It might
    interest you to know that the destruction of the social safety net is
    one of the reasons that the PQ point to for seperation. I believe the
    PQ would be considered a left of center party. This guys self styled
    "Inside Track On World News" should be "The Right Wing Track On World
    News".
    
     I will also point out that one of the Canadian provinces that has
    balanced it's budget is run by a socialist party. I'm glad I live in a
    country that determins the merit of an idea based on it's content
    rather than it's source.
    
    							Derek.

    first you say:
    	
>    Gee, I was really worried until I read it came from "The Sun". 
    
    Then you say:
    
>I'm glad I live in a
>    country that determins the merit of an idea based on it's content
>    rather than it's source.
 
    Maybe you should follow suit....
    
    jim
    

    SUBPAC::SADIN
    
     Have you ever even seen a "Sun" newspaper ? But you are right, I did
    slander the source. So let me restate my objection, regardless of which
    rag it was printed in.
    
    							Derek.

Now, let's get down to really important things:

	What was going to be the name of the Montreal 'ockey team
	if this divorce had come to pass?

/john

       Marooneds?

    Well, it was nice to see the Habs extend their winning streak to 6
    games at the Fleet Bank Vestibule last night.

       GFY

    If you're interested in a reasonable perspective take a look at :
    
    http://www.vir.com/Gazette/stories.html

    
    	re: sun
    
    	Yes, I've seen them and they rate right up their with the other
    trash rags they reside next to. I just wanted to point out the double
    standard being applied....
    
    
    jim

    SUBPAC::SADIN
    
    >>I just wanted to point out the double standard being applied...
    
     And appear to be refuting my note while in fact saying nothing.
    
    
    						Derek.

    
    .403:
    
    Lighten up, Daddy-o!
    

    
    re: Derek
    
>     And appear to be refuting my note while in fact saying nothing.
    
    	I did not refute your note, I just pointed out a glaring double
    standard. If I "appear" to be refuting your note, then it is in your
    eyes, not mine....
    
    
    jim

    SUBPAC::SADIN
    
     So we can agree, you did not attempt to defend your note claiming the
    left is responsible for the situation Canada is in right now.
    
    
    							Derek.

    
    	
>     So we can agree, you did not attempt to defend your note claiming the
>    left is responsible for the situation Canada is in right now.
    
    	Here's where the problem comes in. *I* am not claiming anything...I
    simply posted a news article.
    
    jim

    SUBPAC::SADIN
    
     I've seen this response from you in other areas, getting a little
    tired don't you think ?
    					Derek.

    
    .408,
    
    Spark a doob, man.  Jim's cool, but you're a real flat tire.
    

    
    
    Right you are, Joan.  Derek needs to roll a number, too tense he is.  
    
    
    Here's a clue, Derek.  People get things from different areas, they post
    them in a topic.  Posting something doe not.....let me say that again,
    DOES NOT me that one endorses or agrees with said posting.  If you have
    a problem with the article, write a letter to the author.
    
    
    Mike

    I think perhaps Derek merely needs to increase his dietary fiber intake.

   .410  Here's a clue, Mike.   Proofread. ;>

    GRANPA::MWANNEMACHER
    
    Puff puff puff....
    
     It doesn't seem to be working, Jim has consistanly posted articles
    glorifying the right, and vilifying the left. Coincidence ? I don't
    think so. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and flies like a
    duck....  it probably isn't a duck.
    
    							Derek.

    
    .413,
    
    Jim has ALSO shown his willingness to accept reasoned rebuttal to
    those same articles.  See 130.622 -> .624 for a recent demonstration
    of this.  And, while you're at it, try the waterpipe.
    

    I am quacking up !!!
    
    

    
    I'll try and do better, My Lady.
    
    
    Mikey

    TROOA::COLLINS
    
     Bubble, bubble, bubble....
    
     I feel much better now, but I still think the article was pure
    fiction.
    
    		Derek.

  .418  at least you didn't say "Cretin".

    
    A recent study published by Nesbitt Burns, entitled `Sex And The 
    Economy: The Next Revolution', has found that for every 100 eligible
    women - from 20 to 34 - in Canada, there are now 120 eligible men,
    compared to 72 men per 100 women in 1971.
    

       When in Canada's capital, enjoy dinner at the lovely Clair de Lune
       restaurant.

Yes, one of my favorites!

I also like New Dubrovnik, for a completely different style.

/john

    I drive by New Dubrovnik's twice a day. Been there once. Great food.

	Why are they building a bridge rather than a tunnel to
	Prince Edward Island?

	The nine miles are filled with moving ice in the winter;
	there are fierce storms; empty tractor-trailer rigs will
	have to cross at 15-20 mph in the 50 mph winds; keeping
	the highway clear of snow will be quite a challenge; the
	special construction requirements have never been tested
	in practice.

	See today's Globe for an article about the bridge.

/john

I think a tunnel would have been much more expensive.

Did you know that there are 3 versus to "O Canada"?  I didn't, until
last night when the band I'm in was doing a Remembrance Day Concert
and the conductor had sheet music handed out to the audience so they
could sing all three versus:

Words: Hon. R. Stanley Weir            Music: C. Lavallee

	O Canada! Our home and native land
	True patriot love in all thy sons command.
	With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
	The true north strong and free.
	And stand on guard, O Canada,
	We stand on guard for thee.

	Chorus

	God keep our land, glorious and free!
	O Canada we stand on guard for thee.
	O Canada! We stand on guard for thee

The above is what we usually sing.  Here is the rest:

	O Canada! Where pines and maples grow,
	Great prairies spread and lordly rivers flow.
	How dear to us thy broad domain,
	From east to western sea.
	Thou land of hope for all who toil,
	Thou trus north, strong and free.

	Chorus

	O Canada! Beneath the shining skies,
	May stalwart sons and gentle maidens rise;
	To keep thee steadfast thro' the years,
	From east to western sea.
	Our Father-land, Our Mother-land,
	Our true north, strong and free.

	Chorus

    
    Oh, those are nice words.  I may have to move to Canada.
    
    

    What will it take Debra?
    
    

    
    
    Guarantee her a minimum of 3 stage productions per year for the next 30
    years...
    
    That should do it....
    
    :)
    

    
    One of them has to be a Gilbert & Sullivan, too.  AND I need easy 
    access to a chip wagon, and enough salary to keep me in good beer.
    

    I make good beer, and I know where the good chip wagons are.

    Um, no.

    
    Glenn, you're hard to resist.
    
    

    
    Glenn "Resist-Me-Not" Richardson
                      

    Mister Irresistable

    
    Call him irresponsible...call him unreliable...
    

    
    ...but call him!
    

 Just don't call him late for dinner

    
    
    You guys are all pistols!!!
    
    ;)
    

    That's why Debra always has a little chamber.

    The current issue of "Time" magazine in Canada has a multi-page article
    on Canada, based on some fairly extensive public opinion polling.  Is
    this in the U.S. edition as well?
    
    -Stephen

>Did you know that there are 3 versus to "O Canada"?

Here's the last verse by Hon. R. Stanley Weir, missing from your sheets:

	Ruler Supreme, who hearest humble prayer,
	Hold our Dominion in thy loving care;
	Help us to find, O God, in thee
	A lasting, rich reward,
	As, waiting for the Better Day,
	We ever stand on guard.

	  God keep our land glorious and free!
	  We stand on guard, we stand on guard for thee.
	  O Canada, We stand on guard for thee.

    
    Environment Canada forecasts for Southern Ontario available at:
    
    http://www.on.doe.ca/text/fpcn11.wto
    

    
    Where's my fur-lined undies?
                   
    

    Wouldn't that be "where are my fur-lined undies?"

    
         (~~~~~~~~~~~~)
        (              )
       (  Fur is cool.  )
        ( I mean warm. )O
         (            )  0                      __,,,,_
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~    o ,   _ ___.--'''`--''// ,-_ `-.
                            \`"' ' || \\ \ \\/ / // / ,-  `,_
                           /'`  \   || Y  | \|/ / // / -.,__ `-,
                          /@"\    \ \\ |  | ||/ // | \/  \  `-._`-,_.,
                         /  _.-.  .-\,___|  _-| / \ \/|_/ |     `-._._)
                         `-' f/ |       / __/ \__  /  |__/ \
                              `-'       |  -|   \__ \  |-' |
                                      __/   /__,-'   ) ,' _|'
                                    (((__.-'((___..-'((__,'

    
      Why don't you guys go back to a good meteorological temperature
     scale, namely Fahrenheit.  The degrees are too big for weather
     using Centigrade, and you get too many negative numbers.
    
      bb

    
    Hmm, Doc, you could be right, depending on whether you consider
    "undies" to be plural or singular.  I mean, I can't see anyone owning
    more than one fur-lined undie 8^).
    

    Well, I considered them to be plural, a diminutive form of
    "undergarments." <grin>

    
    .450:
    
    HA!  32 degrees.  What kind of place is THAT to set a freezing point?
    

and "30" sounds a lot easier to handle than "90"

    
    
    Hmmm.... if it's "a pair of undies" (fur-lined or otherwise)...
    
    why isn't it also "a pair of bras"???
    

    
    I dunno, I've always wondered that.  And why is it "a pair of trousers"
    rather than "a trouser"?
    

    
    	Because a "trouser" evolved from the word "leg".
    
    	So "trousers" means the garment has 2 "legs".
    

    
    
    ergo, why not 'bras' vs. 'bra'???
    

    
    And why not a pair of shirts rather than a shirt?  One has two arms,
    after all.
    
    

<----and some have another pair in them!

    
    	Maybe shirt didn't evolve from the word "arm", but rather the
    	word "neck"?  So there's only 1 of them.
    
    	And maybe "bra" evolved from the word "clasp", ergo only 1 of
    	them.
    
    	This "language evolution" is a tricky thing.
    

    Canada is probably drafting some legislation about all of this.

So, how come the Canadien Customs folks confiscate furs at the border?
Did the harp seals get a seat in parliament?

What's a baby seal's favorite drink?





Canadian Club on the rocks.

Agagagagag.

    
    
    
    didn't you guys see the movie "Beaches"???
    
    Bras derived from its creator de Brassiere :))))
    
    or if you watch Seinfeld
    
    the Bra for men...the Man-siere or the Bros! :))
    
    Chris
    :)

    
    FYI, here is the most recent forecast for Toronto this weekend:

      Friday: Mostly sunny, high of -2C, low of -8C Friday night.

      Saturday: Mostly cloudy, high of 1C, low of -2C Saturday night.

      Sunday: Mostly cloudy, high of 4C.

    Apparently, no precipitation is forecast.  We shall see.  ;^)
    

    When is Canada going to rise up and get a real Man for premier; like
    Billy

    Canada does not nor will ever have a premier. The provinces have those.

As presented on the 11/28/95 broadcast of LATE SHOW with DAVID LETTERMAN

Top Ten Canadian complaints about U.S. TV shows:

10. Whenever they show Niagara Falls, always "happens" to be on U.S. side
9. Not enough exciting canoe chases
8. No Monday night curling
7. Just when we get hooked on "Dweebs" -- poof! It's gone
6. One too many award shows hosted by David Letterman
5. It's really hard to play along with "Jeopardy!" after you've drunk a 
couple dozen Molsons
4. Not a single Canadian featured in O.J. trial
3. "E.R." never about frostbite
2. During "Cheers" reruns, real beer should pour out of the TV
1. Too much Dave, not enough Paul

Canada cuts to welfare net remaking country


(c) 1995 Copyright Nando.net
(c) 1995 Reuter Information Service

OTTAWA (Dec 4, 1995 - 23:50 EST) - Canada's once sacred social
welfare net is under sharp attack from budget cutters, leading to changes
some see as more threatening to national unity than even Quebec
separatism.

Canadians have long believed they were the envy of the continent with
an array of support programmes that included a "baby bonus" for
mothers, generous unemployment insurance and low cost medical care.
But these once unifying institutions are under scrutinty from coast to
coast.

Whether it is the influence of U.S. House Speaker Newt Gingrich and
his Republican party south of the border, or the crushing reality of
Canadian debt, benefits are becoming far more miserly. Federal and
provincial governments of all stripes are cutting back from the socialists
in Saskatchewan, to the Liberals in Ottawa and the separatists in
Quebec.

Last week, Prime Minister Jean Chretien's Liberal government
substantially tightened requirements and benefits in the unemployment
insurance programme to save some US$1.5 billion a year from the $12
billion a year programme.

Canada's richest province, Ontario, last week slashed billions of dollars
in spending and introduced user fees on prescription drugs for the elderly.
Welfare benefits were also recently pared 22 percent.

The oil-rich province of Alberta has closed down hospitals and charged
parents for kindergarten to balance its budget. Quebec, seen as soft on
deficit cutting, is talking about scaling back welfare and other
programmes.

It was successive Liberal regimes, culminating in the "Just Society"
vision of former Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau, that introduced a web of
social welfare programmes. Universal old-age security was introduced in
1962, medicare in 1966 and an expanded unemployment insurance
scheme in 1971.

The government of the day said the insurance programme would be
supported by the new industrial age, "which singles us out as one of the
world's most affluent peoples with a spiralling gross national product
and a rising standard of living."

But with a lackluster economy and debt loads doing most of the
spiralling, the programmes now are increasingly viewed as costly
burdens. Nearly one in 10 workers are unemployed in Canada and many
more underemployed in the baby boom gone bust league of so-called
Generation Xers.

Business is enthusiastically applauding the cutbacks. "The problem is we
built such lavish social programmes and now we can't afford them," said
Sharon Glover, senior vice-president of the Canadian Chamber of
Commerce in Toronto.

Two activists on the left, Maude Barlow and Bruce Campbell, recently
published a controversial book accusing the Liberal government of
sacrificing the nation's traditional bonds to act as "pimps for the
corporate elite."

Ottawa has also cut social transfer payments to the provinces and said it
would pay the money in a block sum, giving provinces leeway on how
they want programmes structured.

Critics argue this will lead to an erosion of national standards and create
further disharmony in an already divisive land. Quebec separatists have
used the cutbacks as one of the reasons why the province should leave
the federation.

Allan Moscovitch, a professor at Carleton University in Ottawa, said
while Quebec separatism has occupied the nation for some time, little
attention is being paid to the major changes to the Canadian social
structure.

"While we are sitting around talking about what federalism should be,
the old federalism is gone," he said.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
eye WEEKLY                                            November 30 1995 
Toronto's arts newspaper                      .....free every Thursday 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
NEWS & VIEWS 

by LINDA MCQUAIG

One might have thought that the damning words of scientific superstar John 
Polanyi would have made a difference.

Or, one would have hoped, the defection of Reid Anderson, artistic director of
the National Ballet of Canada, to the welcoming arms of the well-funded German
arts community might be taken as a warning signal.

Both men made dramatic statements earlier this month, trying to draw attention
to the devastating consequences of the cost-cutting mania that has gripped 
federal and provincial governments.

Polanyi, winner of the 1986 Nobel prize for chemistry, told a huge crowd at 
Convocation Hall that if he were a young scientist starting out today, the 
serious lack of funding for basic research in Canada would be enough to drive 
him out of the country. And Reid Anderson, disgusted with the spending cuts 
to the arts in Canada, voted with his feet, as the old anti-Communist types 
used to say.

But nothing seems to make a dent in the rigid mindset of those running the 
country, who seem hellbent on slashing and burning every remaining sign of 
public life.

Indeed, in the same week that Polanyi and Reid were denouncing the erosion of 
government support, Donna Scott, head of the Canada Council, the key federal 
funding agency for the arts, seemed unruffled by the deliberate shrinking of 
government.

In an address in Toronto, Scott invited the business community to step into 
the breach. She suggested, for instance, that corporations start directly 
subsidizing authors -- an idea that sounded strangely reminiscent of those 
plans where people in the industrial world adopt malnourished orphans in 
India. Apparently we can learn a lot from the social and cultural policies 
of the Third World.

The argument is, of course, that all this is necessary because of the deficit.
The financial situation of the government leaves us no choice but to cut back 
the public sector and rely more and more on the private sector, say the gloomy
set of naysayers running the province and the country.

As these folks jauntily wield the axe, it seems to escape their attention that
this massive exercise dedicated to the god of Saving Money will not in fact 
save money. It's all sleight of hand.

To be sure, it seems like saving. Rather than we taxpayers having to contribute
our dollars to fund these activities, the private sector will have to pay for 
them.

What we seem to forget is that the private sector doesn't provide services for
free. In fact, they like to make a profit, and the bigger the profit the better.

Of course, the argument is that the private sector is so much more efficient 
that, despite the additional costs of providing entrepreneurs with a profit, 
the private sector can still provide services for less.

It's a nice theory. The only problem is that it doesn't apply very well to real
life. Once we get beyond the rigid ideological world of anti-public-sector 
zealots, with their fantasies about the inefficiency of government, we find 
almost nothing to support their position.

Indeed, the real-world evidence proves exactly the opposite. Let's take the 
key area of health care, and compare the private system that operates in the 
United States to the public system that we have in Canada.

According to the theory, Americans should get good value for their health care
dollars because their private system would be more efficient. In truth, 
however, the U.S. results are dismal. Some 37 million Americans don't even 
have health care insurance (because they can't afford it; private health 
insurance costs generally run about $5,000 a year for a family of four). 
Millions more Americans have such grossly inadequate coverage that a serious 
illness in the family would leave them bankrupt.

As a result, the U.S. has much more poorer health statistics than Canada -- 
higher infant mortality, shorter life expectancy. It has been estimated that 
about 100,000 Americans die prematurely each year because of lack of access to
necessary medical screening and care.

Okay. So they have health problems. At least they must be saving money. Right?

Interestingly, they're not even doing that. It turns out that, with 1,500 
private insurance companies offering a wide assortment of different health 
plans, the cost of administering health care in the U.S. is five times higher 
than in Canada.

The bottom line: the U.S. pays 40 per cent more per person for health care 
than we do in Canada, and ends up with dramatically worse health results. Only
some very disturbed notion of "common sense" would send someone scurrying to 
copy this defective model.

But let's go back to Donna Scott's idea of corporate sponsorship for the arts.
Once again, the savings are illusory. It may look like a saving if a corp-
oration, as opposed to a government agency, supports an artist. But what we're
forgetting is that the corporation will get a tax break for doing so. When 
corporations contribute to the arts, they can deduct the cost of their 
contribution from their tax bill.

So we're not saving as much as we appear to be. We're just letting corporations
take part of the money that they would otherwise have to pay in taxes and 
instead allowing them to contribute it to an artistic cause. This is nice for 
them, because they get good PR. Rather than pay the money in taxes, they get 
wonderful publicity for their company.

We end up, however, with much less control, even though the money they are 
dispensing to the arts is really in part our money, in that we would otherwise
have collected it in taxes.

Whatever the failings of public agencies like the Canada Council, it is 
important to remember that they are ultimately accountable to democratically 
elected governments, and their funding decisions are made by independent 
artists in related fields. When corporations make funding decisions, they are 
answerable to no one but themselves.

If our banks, brokerage houses and oil companies are making key funding 
decisions, are we likely to end up with an arts community capable of producing
biting social, political and cultural commentary?

To call all this cost-cutting penny-wise and pound-foolish is not quite 
accurate. It isn't even penny-wise. It's just foolish.

    
    The *first* thing the Harris gov't has done right!   ;^)
    
    They have announced they will pay two-thirds of the remaining cost
    of Highway 416 from Ottawa to the 401 (and Toronto), allowing the 
    project to (finally) be completed.
    
    We'll see more of you here, eh Glenn?
    

    Well, that IS good news. Mr. Topaz would be nearly impressed with a
    416.

re:        <<< Note 59.477 by TROOA::COLLINS "Dreaming on our dimes..." >>>

Not quite so bad here, John. They threatened, but even though it's been
snowing for 14 hours non-stop, the accumulation is only about four inches
at present. And the temp right now, at 30 F, is the warmest it's been since 
yesterday AM.

    I guess the only good thing you could say about to-day's weather is,
    that the sun did come out and the snow was light (it only took Syd and
    I about 45 minutes to clear the driveway) other than that, winter has
    arrived far too early this year.
    
    
    Oh Mother Nature, what did we do to you to deserve this?
    
    
    
    joan

    Well, pissed in her atmosphere, for one thing.
    

    Well, I don't remember doing that, but if I did, I am down on my knee
    (the other one won't bend after digging out the driveway) please
    forgive me and bring back summer.
    
    
    
    Or at least spring :-)
    
    
    joan

I think my driveway must be about a hundred feet long and I *still*
haven't finished shovelling it - started on Saturday and do a bit 
at a time.  Hope I get it done before the next big dump comes along!

Canadians question Chretien's style


(c) 1995 Copyright Nando.net
(c) 1995 Reuter Information Service

OTTAWA (Dec 17, 1995 - 13:11 EST) - Prime Minister Jean
Chretien's studied simplicity, which propelled him to record popularity in
his first two years of office, is beginning to wear thin on some Canadian
citizens and commentators.

As Canadians contemplate the possibility that Quebec might break up
their country by seceding, many have begun to lose patience with
Chretien's casual offhandedness and have begun to wonder if he has the
stuff to handle this kind of crisis.

"Jean Chretien is falling like a stone," writes syndicated columnist Allan
Fotheringham.

Chretien, himself a French-speaking Quebecker, had tried to ignore the
Quebec issue and told Canadians not to worry in the run-up to the
October 30 referendum, when the country ended up staying together only
by one percentage point.

In the fever just before and after the referendum, it seemed many
Canadians would have done anything to keep Quebec in.

But he quickly went off to summits in Asia and the Pacific, and when he
returned he still displayed no sense of urgency especially after Quebec
separatist leader Lucien Bouchard said a new referendum was unlikely
before 1997.

After heavy criticism, he then quickly unveiled a "unity package"
designed to fulfil promises made to Quebec in the last week of the
campaign, but in the process he incurred the wrath of much of western
Canada and scorn from the press.

By the time the lower House of Commons adjourned on Thursday,
Chretien appeared only too glad to lick his wounds and consider a
cabinet shuffle to divert public attention.

"Chretien seems clueless and just playing for time in the hopes that
Bouchard self-destructs as premier," the Ottawa Sun's Douglas Fisher
wrote. Bouchard is leaving federal politics for Quebec, where he hopes he
can keep the sovereignty drive aflame.

The official opposition, Bouchard's Bloc Quebecois, has as expected
always attacked Chretien and his Liberal government.

But commentators have begun to take notice of the questions of the third
party, Reform, which tirelessly asked him to lay down tough bargaining
terms for any possible secession and to explain the logic of his policies.

"A clear answer appears to be beyond the capacity of the prime
minister," Reform head Preston Manning told parliament.

"Why would anyone follow the prime minister's lead in the national
unity area when there is no consultation, no mandate, no rationality, no
democratic legitimacy behind his proposals?"

Manning has come in for his share of criticism, in particular his
suggestion that perhaps Chretien should be impeached. But Toronto
Globe and Mail columnist and author Jeffery Simpson delivered a
scathing attack on Chretien.

"The relentless, precise questioning of the Reform Party in parliament is
daily exposing the alarming vagaries and evident improvisations of Prime
Minister Jean Chretien's strategy for national unity," he wrote.

And on Friday Chretien's ally, Quebec Liberal leader Daniel Johnson,
blasted Chretien for taking so long during the October campaign to offer
change to the voters.

New poll numbers have not been out to show how it all is playing with
the voters. Chretien has a solid parliamentary majority and he is not
obliged to hold an election until 1998.

But by then a new Quebec struggle could be full-blown or even over,
and if he is blamed for losing or nearly losing it, his political life may be
seriously endangered.



    Is "Chretian" French for "cretin" ?

No, it's French for Christian.

/john

    
    Toronto and Rochester have agreed to spend $150,000 for a marketing
    and feasibility study of a Lake Ontario fast ferry service linking 
    the two cities.
    

Will they use ice boats in the winter?

Any indications what they project the port-to-port time to be, John?

    
    The little article didn't say, Jack.  
    

    So, they canned the bridge idea then?  
    
    @ 30 kts, it would be something less the 3 hrs.  
    @ 50 kts, it would be under two hours. 
    
    The distance is about 90 miles.  
    
    

And the overland mileage is?

It's about 160 miles by road.

About 110 across the water.

A fast passenger ferry is a stupid thing to spend tax money on.
High speed rail service would be faster and would serve Rochester,
Buffalo, Niagara Falls, Hamilton, and Toronto.

Lake Ontario's nothern shore is about 45 miles from the southern shore
halfway between Toronto and Rochester.

/john

    
    .493
    
    I think the idea is to encourage a privately-operated ferry, 
    rather than a taxpayer-funded service.
    
    Also, I think it would have to be a vehicular ferry, not merely
    a passenger ferry.
    
    Myself, I wasn't aware that there would be any demand for it.
    

There is _no_way_ that a vehicular ferry could possibly be faster than
driving, when you count load and unload time.

/john

    
    Hmmmm.  Well, I'm at a loss to explain the need for a passenger ferry.
    I don't know anyone who wants to go to Rochester as a final destination.
    

What about Rochestrians who want to go to Toronto as a final destination?
I know some people who, when they lived in Buffalo, would sometimes go
to Toronto for a good meal.

    I'm from Rochester and would like to go back as a final destination.

Take me back to old Rochester,
That's where this old Mick am long to go...

    
    .497, Gerald
    
    And well they should, too!  :^)
    

>There is _no_way_ that a vehicular ferry could possibly be faster than
>driving, when you count load and unload time.

Faster isn't important. When I spend three hours behind the wheel of a car
going from Rochester to Toronto, I've just tossed three hours in the trash
as there's little else that I can accomplish while driving (not having a
cel phone, and all). If I spend those three hours on a ferry unencumbered
by the need to pilot the car, there are any number of things that I can 
accomplish, and I've just bought three additional hours in which to do so.

The Port Jeff/Bridgeport Ferry is a similar situation. With the possible
exception of heavy traffic days/times it doesn't save any time over driving,
but it sure is more convenient, and you rarely see the thing wanting for
passengers, so I suspect it's profitable.

From:	US5RMC::"daily@statcan.ca" 21-DEC-1995 09:58:46.37
Subj:	The Daily - December 21, 1995 (fwd)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quarterly demographic statistics
July to September 1995

Preliminary post-censal population estimates as of October 1, 1995 for Canada,
the provinces and territories are now available.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Table: Canada's population as of October 1
______________________________________________________________________________
                                    1993(1)          1994(1)          1995(2)
______________________________________________________________________________

                                                '000
                           _______________________________________________

Newfoundland                       583.1            578.9            573.6
Prince Edward Island               133.6            135.2            136.9
Nova Scotia                        932.5            935.7            940.5
New Brunswick                      756.3            758.7            760.5
Quebec                           7,261.0          7,301.3          7,349.6
Ontario                         10,858.3         10,988.5         11,162.5
Manitoba                         1,125.3          1,130.9          1,138.6
Saskatchewan                     1,010.7          1,013.1          1,017.6
Alberta                          2,696.9          2,722.0          2,757.8
British Columbia                 3,606.9          3,706.1          3,798.6
Yukon                               30.0             29.5             30.8
Northwest Territories               64.0             65.0             66.0
Canada                          29,058.5         29,364.9         29,733.0

______________________________________________________________________________


                            1993 to 1994     1994 to 1995
______________________________________________________________________________

                                      % change
                           ______________________________

Newfoundland                        -0.7             -0.9
Prince Edward Island                 1.2              1.3
Nova Scotia                          0.3              0.5
New Brunswick                        0.3              0.2
Quebec                               0.6              0.7
Ontario                              1.2              1.6
Manitoba                             0.5              0.7
Saskatchewan                         0.2              0.4
Alberta                              0.9              1.3
British Columbia                     2.8              2.5
Yukon                               -1.7              4.4
Northwest Territories                1.6              1.5
Canada                               1.1              1.3

______________________________________________________________________________


(1)  Updated post-censal estimates. The updated population estimates for the
     provinces and territories supersede those previously published, due to
     changes in the provincial and territorial distribution of non-permanent
     residents.
(2)  Preliminary post-censal estimates.
Note:  Each figure has been rounded independently to the nearest hundred.
Source:  Population Estimates Section, Demography Division.

    Digital Canada reports stellar results
    
    by Geoffrey Rowan
    The Globe and Mail
    (reprinted without permission)
    
    TORONTO - Digital Equipment of Canada Ltd. became the latest susidiary
    of a U.S. computer giant to report stellar financial results this
    week.
    
    Sales for the Toronto-based company grew to $684.6 million in its
    second quarter ended Dec. 30, a 24-percent increase from the
    corresponding period last year.
    
    "This is not a flash in the pan, it's a true turnaround," said Digital
    Canada president Graeme Woodley.  "We fixed this thing and we're poised
    for long-term, sustainable growth."
    
    The thing that Digital fixed was its cost-heavy structure, which nearly
    brought the company down in the early 1990s.  At its peak, parent
    company Digital Equipment Corp., based in Maynard, Mass., had about
    125,000 employees but that number is now down to 61,000.
    
    Employment was about 3,600 at its peak in Canada and it is now about
    3,200, Mr. Woodley said.
    
    Earlier this week, Digital Equipment announced second-quarter revenue
    of $4-billion (U.S.) - up 14 per cent from the previous year - and a
    $148.8-million profit, up from $18.9-million a year earlier.  Digital
    Canada does not break out profit figures.
    
    Despite Digital's previous financial problems, the company's Canadian
    subsidiary has performed reasonably well, never seeing revenue fall. 
    Digital Canada's revenue has grown from $1.2-billion (Canadian) in
    fiscal 1993 to a projected $3.2 billion for fiscal 1996.
    
    Part of the reason is that Digital Canada won a mandate to manufacture
    the company's entire line of personal computers for the Americas.  In
    the second quarter, that produced export revenue of $497-million, up
    from $400-million last year.
    
    The only disappointment for the company was in service revenue, which
    was unchanged in the United States at $1.6-billion (U.S.)

See? And then they went and let !Joan go.

    !Joan was a contractor.

    If you love something let it go.
    If it goes on to make millions of dollars and form a large company,
    you were a complete frickin dorkomaniac.

Well, I think I knew that - lemme check - Yup!

But even our contractors contribute to our success, don't they?

    I was objecting, if you can call it that, to your use of the
    description "let him go." To me that carries that connotation of laying
    someone off or firing them, which is not exactly the way it happened.
    They didn't re-up his contract. Even though the effect is the same, it
    seems a little different to me.

!Joan was a full-time deccie until a couple of years ago when we went 
through our last major round of transitions.  At that time, he was told 
that he could be retained as a contractor.  I find the headcount in the
article kind of suspect - I have been here just over 4 years and in that 
time, have managed to remain through 3 major down-sizing projects. I can't 
believe that only 400 employees were let go.  We've had whole sites close 
down.  I imagine that 3600 number was for full-time employees and that the 
3200 number includes full timers AND contractors.

    Saw a little news bite about the new $2 coin with the polar bear
    depicted. Some local WAG proposed that it be nicknamed the "moonie"
    
    
    because it shows the Queen "with the bear behind"....

    
    > Queen "with the bear behind"....
    
    Is it a Silva coin?

    It'll be called a "twonie" I'm certain.

    
    Is that with a silent W?
    

    
    	In that case, maybe they'll call it a
    
    	Twony Twoni Twone
    

Eh?

| <<< Note 59.511 by SMURF::WALTERS >>>

| Is it a Silva coin?

	hee hee hee....

    
    	RE: Covert
    
    	Pop/R&B band.
    
    	Tony Toni Tonee
    
    	[Please excuse spelling and/or sequence errors.]
    

    Them canucks are a bunch of loonie twons.

    
    	Very daffy.  Bugs me immensely.
    

    If it was a smaller coin it could be a teeny tiny twonie.

The big game already is seeing who can break apart the coins the fastest-
I wonder if each part could count as a $1.00?  The mint has issued a 
warning that it is a criminal offense to tamper with the currency in hopes 
that the trend won't continue.  I think the temptation is just too much for
some people.

    I like it too. Between the loonie and the two-nie, there is a 60
    million dollar savings for the mint each year.

You mean it's like the old pieces of eight that they can be broken up easily?
And it wasn't intentional?

I've never seen a "twonie/moonie" (or even a loonie) so sorry if this is
offbase.

    It's kinna a coin within a coin.

    
    	Are you sure it's not a chocolate coin in a metallic wrapper?
    

    Are you trying to give me a nervous breakdown? huh? HUH?

    
    	Glenn, if it hasn't happened yet then I seriously doubt it ever
    	will.
    

How much time have you spent trying to peel those coins, Glenn?

\C

    
    
    		{[{[{[{[{[ sssshhhhaaaaakeee ]}]}]}]}]}]}
    
    

    -1 You've been eating too much liver.

OK. I give up. Who can describe the $2 coin?

    I haven't seen one in person yet (they were released by the Mint this
    past Monday) but I still had the Monday paper and from the decription
    printed can tell you that the coin is a little bigger than a loonie
    (bigger than a quarter).  It is an aluminum bronze core surrounded by a
    nickel outer ring.  As stated previously, the Queen's head is on one
    side and a polar bear is on the other.  I think I read that it cost
    $6.00 to mint each one, but that they will last over 20 years, whereas
    a paper $2.00 bill lasts just over a year.  Maybe somebody else can
    verify the numbers. (especially the $6.00 - it sounds kind of high to
    me)

    One can make an olympic shooting event of it, see who can punch out
    the brass(?) center portion at the longest distance with a .223 rifle.
    
    

    Sounds like a casino chip.  Does it say Bally's or Ceasar's Palace on
    it anywhere?

    
    Story and picture on front page of today's Boston Globe...
    
    Since certain Canadians are voting in our presidential primaries, I'll
    vote *against* this coin. It looks like a subway token...
    

    You might as well make sure you get what you want. After Pat builds his
    wall you'll prolly be swapping $50 for one.  ;-}
    

    The coin cost 16 cents to make vrs. 6 cents (I think) for the $2 bill.
    
    
    							Derek.

    
    I think it's a wonderful idea.  I wish we'd go to more coins.
    

    welll ... I kinda knew I was way overboard, but then I figured, what
    the heck, if it lasts forever I guess it would still be a good deal.
    Thanks for the info.

>    The coin cost 16 cents to make vrs. 6 cents (I think) for the $2 bill.

But lasts 20 times as long.

/john

    COVERT::COVERT
    
    >>But lasts 20 times as long.
    
     You are correct sir.
    
    			Derek.

    As of yesterday, the Ontario Civil Servants have been on strike.  The
    services affected so far by the OPSEU (Ont Public Service Employees
    Union) strike are:
    
    Essential or Emergency Services:
    * Courts - Fewer baliffs to transfer prisoners; administration slowed
    with fewer court clerks; fines and parking ticket payments not taken
    
    *Highways - Snowplows to clear one lane each way on provincial
    highways, including Hwy 401 and other 400-series highways; government
    is "strongly advising" motorists not to use highways during bad weather
    
    * Jails - Minimal staff, including guards; day passes for prisoners
    cancelled
    
    * Public Health Labs - One-third of workers on duty for urgent tests
    
    * Water and Sewage Treatment Monitoring - Regular water quality tests
    curtailed at Ontario Clean Water Agency facilities
    
    * Psychiatric Hospitals - Minimal staff, including nurses
    
    * Meat Inspections - Killing stopped at plants staffed by provincial
    meat inspectors; could mean less choice on supermarket shelves
    
    Other Services:
    
    * Registrar General's Office - Closed.  Birth, Death, Marriage and
    Change of Name certificates not issued, with few exceptions
    
    * Elevator Inspections - Staff on call for emergencies only
    
    * Driver tests - Cancelled; will have to be rescheduled once strike is
    over
    
    * Driver licence renewal - Not available except in communities where
    provided by private sector; licences remain valid until end of strike;
    suspended licences remain suspended until strike is over
    
    * Ontario Student Assistance Plan - All services stopped, including
    processing applications.
    
    * OHIP - New or replacement cards not available except to newborns
    
    * Land Registry Offices - Open from noon to 4:30pm, Monday to Friday,
    for real estate and other urgent transactions; service slowed as
    supervisors only ones on the job
    
    * Truck Safety Inspections - Limited  (Like this is any different than
    before?)
    
    * Movie Censor Board - Censors not on strike but board staff is; movies
    could go unrated (the HORROR!!!!)
    
    Government Payroll system - No paycheques for staff still on job
    
    Not Affected:
    
    * Emergency ambulance and provincial police dispatching services, Go
    Transit, fire marshal investigations, hospitals, schools, welfare and
    family benefit cheques 

    The government's standing offer to the union would double severance
    pay, give workers a 2% - 5% pay hike and cost the Tories $150 to $200
    million.
    
    The union's counter-offer for a buyout package worth a year's salary,
    quadruple severance pay and job protection carries a $1.5 billion price
    tag.
    
    
    
    These people (OPSEU) better join reality soon, or we'll be in for a
    long strike.  One of the picketors (sp?) had a sign that said "This is
    not about money"   ......  yeah, right!  It's always about money.  I
    think the Harris government will be willing to let this one go for
    awhile - what better opportunity to balance the budget?  It will be
    interesting too to see just how many of these jobs are really
    necessary.  
    

    
    	I would hate to have more coins.  My pocketbook is heavy
    	enough already !
    
    	Karen
    

    Well, I hate having a wallet full of ones. I love the coins.

    >  Well, I hate having a wallet full of ones. 
    
    
    the story of my life.
    
    hey, can I borrow that for a personal name for awhile.
    
    thanks.
    
    

>    Well, I hate having a wallet full of ones.

Well, why didn't you tell me that? I could've helped.

    
    	I'd rather have a wallet full of $1 bills than a wallet full of $1
    	coins.
    

    I'd rather have a wallet full of $1 gold coins than a wallet full of $1
    Federal Reserve Notes.

    I like a pocket full of twonies.

    
      I'd rather have wallet full of US ones than a wallet full of
     Canadian ones.
    
      bb

        Well, Canadian ones are now collectibles.

I'd rather keep my folding money in a money clip in my pocket.

Wallets are for credit cards, membership cards, and licenses.

    what's a wallet?
    
    

    
    	It's the structural portion of the room between the flooret and
    	the ceilinget.
    

    
    	Hey, give me some credit ... at least I left out the "and it meets
    	up with the carpet" crack.
    

    .556
    
    Yeah, so stop carping.

    Jim Keegstra loses in an appeal to the Supreme Court Of Canada
    concerning his promotion of hate against jews.
    
    I am most pleased.

Is this conviction because he taught high-school students that the
Holocaust was a hoax?

Or did he do something else?

/john

    That's the one. Originally charged back in 1984.

Do you enjoy living in the land of Thoughtcrimes?

    Well, if that's what you want to call it, yes.

    But you can't have teachers who produce porn it seems.
    
    We can't have teachers who promote hate.

I live in a country where it's legal to espouse unpopular or untrue opinions.

    Not as a teacher.

Here a high school teacher who taught that crap would be fired, not prosecuted.

In Canada, you, who are not a teacher, would be prosecuted if you passed out
handbills claiming that the Holocaust didn't happen.

/john

    He did it in class. We have hate laws. Call it what you will. He is
    scum and he's the only one who has faced this. Seems just to me.
    
    How about Germany? They're shutting down Zundel for crying out loud!
    We're not.

re .568

Canada did shut him down, which is why his site is in the U.S.

And Canada continues to prosecute him on new charges as they are brought
against him.

/john

    
    The US has a much better position then Canada on this stuff.  You guys
    let Alanis Morissette (sic) say f2k on TV, we censor that.  
    
    Of course vitriol/hate/white supremacy stuff is not obscene by
    community standards so it thrives here (note where the worst of these
    folks choose to set up shop).

    Keegstra certainly deserved to be removed from the classroom for life.
    
    The Holocaust-denial stuff he was teaching is pernicious filth.  I am
    ambivalent about statutes against promotion of hate because it's a
    tricky matter to know where to draw the line and freedom of speech and
    of the press are extremely important.  People are all too willing to
    persecute other people whose opinions they find offensive.  In a
    liberal pluralist society you probably have to err on the side of
    tolerance.  But ultimately I think you do have to draw a line.  
    
    -Stephen

    Well, I see who is being `persecuted' by our hate laws and I don't feel
    bad about it. Not one bit.

    re: .572
    
    Until it's your turn.
    
    Bob

	Bob...I think he already did

    COVERT::COVERT
    
    >>I live in a country where it's legal to espouse unpopular or untrue
    >>opinions.
    
     **NO** slander laws in the States ?? Well in that case, you are a
    #$%#$@@#$ $%^&%$^& $%^#$%^#$%^ no good #$%^#$%^ &$%&%^&er   :*)
    
     And since there are no laws about espousing ***untrue*** opinions
    I think I'll get a WEB page and let the world know. :*)
    
     I think those that say we would feel differently if we were being
    prosecuted by the hate crime laws would also feel different if they
    were the object of the hate crime. Giving these dirtbags a podium from
    which they can influence others is wrong.
    
     Americans will say that it is better to "expose these ideas to the
    light of day". I will note the tremendous success America has in the
    field of race relations. I will also note that dirty pictures are now
    banned on the Internet. So lets see, a womans breasts are bad, but
    promoting hate is OK.
    
    Yeah your free alright.
    
     Free to destroy one of the best countries to ever exist by blindly
    exerting your "freedoms". If your so free how come you can't go any
    speed on the interstate ? Why can't you just buy a plane and start
    flying, or get a ham radio and start broadcasting ? Reasonable limits
    are always imposed by society. Yours happens to think it is reasonable
    to promote hate, mine does not. To-may-to , to-mah-to. Please do not
    equate spreading hateful bull$hit with the right of free speach. We
    have the right to our opinions. The seperatist leader of the offical
    opposition sets a standard of political freedom that no other country
    can match as far as I know. So save your pity for people who are
    actually oppressed.
    
    							Derek.

>If you're so free how come you can't go any speed on the interstate?

65mph is a bit faster than 100km/h, eh?

    You can think it all you want here, but if you promote it and it is
    identified as hatred, you'll get in trouble.
    
    Works for me.

    re. 65 vrs 100
    
     Now there is a snappy come-back!!
    
    
     Publishing(Zundel) and teaching (Kiegstra sp?) are not in the realm of
    thought, they are deeds. This is not about "THOUGHTCRIME", there were
    actions associated with the "thoughts". Actions that are detrimental
    to our society.
    
    							Derek.
    

    I realise it's un-American, but it is the nature of Canada to be so,
    from time to time.