Conference back40::soapbox

    Bruce:
    
    Has there been a rise in Mountain Lion attacks on the people of that
    area?
    
    I live in Southern New Hampshire.  Now although the Racoons were here
    before I was, the fact remains there are alot of rabid racoons in the
    area.  Legally I own property here and although the racoons were here
    first, I believe the safety of the human population takes prescedence.
    
    -Jack

    Yes, after no reported attacks in nearly 70 years, there have been
    around a dozen attacks in the last decade in California.  Several have
    resulted in fatalities.
    
    Mountain Lions were protected by the initiative process under
    proposition 117.  That was 6 or 7 years ago.  Since that time,
    lion populations are up, while human encroachment into their
    territories has substantially increased the likelihood of encounters.
    
    DougO
    

Raccoons
Precedence

    Uhhhh....sorry

  "racoon" is a variant.

    AAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAA!!
    
    You tellem Di!!!
    
    
    
    Nyahhhhhhhh!!

RE: 445.2 by SX4GTO::OLSON "Doug Olson, ISVETS Palo Alto"

> while human encroachment into their territories has substantially 
> increased the likelihood of encounters.

I doubt if this is a major cause.  Lots of people have always spent time in
mountain lion country.  Attacks are almost not existent prior to the ending
of hunting.


Phil

Di, did you find that in Little Chambers of Obscure Variants?

 .8  american heritage college dictionary

    Last weekend, we had a cougar wander into a neighborhood off of South
    Mountain Park in Phoenix.  The Fish and Game officers caught it in
    someone's backyard and returned it to the wilderness.
    
    Their appearances are more common up north though, especially during
    dry spells.  They often head to rivers where lots of campers are.
    
    Mike

 >.8  american heritage college dictionary

Funny, I've got the AHD office edition, based
on the college edition...

No variant.  Just r-a-c-c-o-o-n.  
A North American mammal with a bushy, black-ringed tail.

                           bgo

         Public key fingaprint *&^* $$!!!AAPHOOEY
         @2eeeecrips+$+$+$+$++**&&&&&@@abcdef????

>>Funny, I've got the AHD office edition, based
>>on the college edition...

	well, one might assume that the office edition isn't
	as comprehensive, no?

I have never in my entire life seen the word
raccoon spelled with one c.  Of course, this
variant might exist, but I doubt that it is
used by any self-respecting spella. 

>>Of course, this
>>variant might exist...

	It _does_ exist.

    It's not a variant, it's a varmint.
    
    Chris

    .14
    
    > I have never in my entire life seen the word
    > raccoon spelled with one c.
    
    Obviously, you haven't been reading SOAPBOX today, then, right?

Down in the black hills of South Dakota
there lived a young boy named Rocky Raccoon (variant: Racoon)...

Yes, one sees lots of mispelings in Sopabox.

.18

 "Now somewhere in the black minin' hills of Dakota", I believe. ;>

> "Now somewhere in the black minin' hills of Dakota", I believe. ;>

Uh-oh.

>Obviously, you haven't been reading SOAPBOX today, then, right?

This is why I was shocked, simply shocked to see the word with a
missing c.

    .21
    
    We wouldn't want to shok you, would we?

    >I believe the safety of the human population takes prescedence.
    
    We agree on this one Jack. I'll even go further by saying that the
    advancement of the human population takes prescedence.
    
    ...Tom

    >> while human encroachment into their territories has substantially
    >> increased the likelihood of encounters.
    >
    > I doubt if this is a major cause.  Lots of people have always spent
    > time in mountain lion country.  Attacks are almost not existent prior
    > to the ending of hunting.
    
    California has substantially increased its open space parklands
    adjacent to major suburban/urban environments in the last twenty years,
    and many more people are using these open space preserves for exercise
    than they were before.  All of the recorded attacks in the last five
    years have taken place in these open space preserves.
    
    Ask Robyrt if he thinks about mountain lions while jogging (what the
    last victim was doing when a lion got her.)
    
    DougO

Precedence.  NNTTM.

    Ahhhh your just trying to justify having multiple wives!! :-)
    
    

    IMHO:
    
    
    Maybe, just maybe, The fine Govt' of Cailifornia should but a ban
    on any more encroachment into the natural habitats.
    
    Stop building...Or the state is gonna fall off of the shelf due to 
    too much weight.
    
    
    Sin-te-da

    Colorado voters voted to stop spring bear hunts. 
    
    Bear/pet/people/trash can encounters up.
    
    DUH!!!
    
    Policy gives the bear 2 chances at relocation.....
    
    It's called 3 strikes and your a rug!!
                

    Re. -1
    
    Isn't is about amazing the complete thought process used by some?
    
    IE:  
    
    1) Encroach in the Native/Natural environment of the wildlife.
    2) To be close to nature
    3) Stop certain activities from occuring, for some assinine reason.
       I eat beef, pork and what have you, but I don't have to kill it
       so it's ok.. But, you can't hunt Pooh bear, Bambi or tiger.
    4) Then bitch and complain about the wild life eating the dog, cat,
       roses. the garden...the poor dog tied to the tree...
    
    Oh well... off of my soap box..
    
    Sin-te-da

    Out where I live (Western Mass) there seems to be a REAL
    increase recently in the number of normally 'shy' animals
    coming into contact with people.

    Two Moose rampaged through Northampton last week.  Moose seem
    to really like Northampton.

    There have been a LOT of bears around.  My neighbors have
    all had damage done, like garage doors ripped open to get at
    garbage, bird feeders destroyed, etc.  One neighbor came down
    in the morning and found three bears on his porch eating from a feeder.
    My kids went for a walk on our road and a bear bigger than
    I am came out of the woods and they had a staring contest
    for a while.  A neighbor saw the bear and came out of his
    house to the end of his drive and finally the bear went back
    into the woods.  He walked the kids home but they were all shaken.
    We now see the bear(s?) around pretty often.

    I like seeing deer in the yard, wild turkeys eating from my
    sheep feeders, etc. etc.  But 6 foot black bears I dont need.
    bob

    >Moose seem to really like Northampton.
    
     <smirk>

    a moose once bit my sister.
    she was trying to carve her initials in it at the time.
    

    The colorado division of Wildlife does have a pretty good list of
    instructions for people who live in bear country.  One of them is to
    take bird feeders in at dusk, as well as keeping smelly trash in the
    freezer until trash day.  Bears which are habituated are really a
    danger to humans, they begin to associate humans with food, and finally
    humans as food.  This is the reason behind the "two striks and the bear
    is dead" policy.
    
    meg

 Whatza strik?

    A small, upland bird with mottled brown plumage.

    re -1
    
    thats a snipe
    
    but you knew that didn't you???

    Errrm, Bill, this troubles me ! Why exactly was your sister trying to 
    carve her initials into a moose ???!!!??? 

    I guess because the trees were too hard!
    
    
    or, more likely I stole it from a monty python sketch.  a^)

    
    >Di, did you find that in Little Chambers of Obscure Variants?
    
    
    Hmm...I like it.  I like it!
    
    8^)

    The mountain lions were there first.  Leave the damn critters alone for
    Christ's sake!

    -1  You can't be serious!  They are a threat to human life, turn them
    all into RUGS !
    
    Dan

    
    re: Note 445.41
    
    >The mountain lions were there first.  Leave the damn critters alone for
    >Christ's sake!
    
    If you go back far enough one can guess animals lived where you reside
    today.   Are you preparred to leave your home because animals where 
    there first? What about where you work? What about rt 128 or 495?
    
    It's easy to say this as long as it's in someone elses neighborhood.
    People from back east are particularly good at telling other folks
    how to live.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    I get a little annoyed with people who move into areas known to contain
    hazards, and then get all miffed because hey, it's hazardous here!
    
    (I also get annoyed with people who move into a desert and then expect
    to grow a lush, green lawn, but that's another matter.)

    
      So why make a list ?  Chels & the T wuz both BORN annoyed.
    
      bb

    Re: .46
    
    >Chels & the T wuz both BORN annoyed.
    
    No, no, it only arises when we're exposed to stupidity.  Which is why
    you see it so often.

    
    A lot of mirrors around, eh?
    

    I thought a noid was the Domino's Pizza character.

    
    if a lion hassles me i'll try reasoning with it.

        <----

    I'd shoot it before I seasoned it, but.... 
    Oh you said reas... 
    Never mind

    :-)
    Dan

         (~~~~~~~~~~~~)
        (  mmmmm...    )
       (     ...Dan!!   )
        (              )O
         (            )  0                      __,,,,_
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~    o ,   _ ___.--'''`--''// ,-_ `-.
                            \`"' ' || \\ \ \\/ / // / ,-  `,_
                           /'`  \   || Y  | \|/ / // / -.,__ `-,
                          /@"\    \ \\ |  | ||/ // | \/  \  `-._`-,_.,
                         /  _.-.  .-\,___|  _-| / \ \/|_/ |     `-._._)
                         `-' f/ |       / __/ \__  /  |__/ \
                              `-'       |  -|   \__ \  |-' |
                                      __/   /__,-'   ) ,' _|'
                                    (((__.-'((___..-'((__,'

    hhhmmmmm,... what to use.....hhmmmmmm
    the 300 magnum...... bolt action, better take it with the first shot...
    M1A,.... 20 round box magazine, good to 1000 yrds.... make a mess of
    the pelt...
    .44 Mag super blackhawk,... VERY SPORTING, but might set him on fire...
    spear,... nah ruin the pelt...
    
    M1A,...Always the best choice! ! !
    
    Yes, I'm right here waiting..... (Stupid walking rug ....)
    
    :-)
    Dan

         (~~~~~~~~~~~~)
        (   Is that    )
       (     a gun?     )
        (              )O
         (            )  0                      __,,,,_
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~    o ,   _ ___.--'''`--''// ,-_ `-.
                            \`"' ' || \\ \ \\/ / // / ,-  `,_
                           /'`  \   || Y  | \|/ / // / -.,__ `-,
                          /@"\    \ \\ |  | ||/ // | \/  \  `-._`-,_.,
                         /  _.-.  .-\,___|  _-| / \ \/|_/ |     `-._._)
                         `-' f/ |       / __/ \__  /  |__/ \
                              `-'       |  -|   \__ \  |-' |
                                      __/   /__,-'   ) ,' _|'
                                    (((__.-'((___..-'((__,'

        <----
    Gun ! ? ! ?  
    No, I don't have a gun....
    yeah, and the check's in the mail...
    I'm from the government, I'm here to help...
    I'll still respect...never mind...
    (stupid walking rug....)

    :-)
    Dan

    			        .---------------------.
    			       /| Was that a barbeque?|
    			      / `---------------------'
                          (__)
                          (oo)
                   /-------\/ 
                  / |     ||  
                 *  ||W---||  
                    ~~    ~~  

    You guys are really milking this topic now.

    
    Ohhhh, that LEECH guy!  How dairy start up another punfest?

    What's your beef with punfests?

    <--- what prodded you to put that in?

    
    	He didn't want to be branded as a humorless twit.
    

    Can we please steer the topic back to mountain lions?

    \john

    8^)

         (~~~~~~~~~~~~)
        (  Lions are   )
       (     wimps!     )
        (              )O
         (            )  0                      __,,,,_
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~    o ,   _ ___.--'''`--''// ,-_ `-.
                            \`"' ' || \\ \ \\/ / // / ,-  `,_
                           /'`  \   || Y  | \|/ / // / -.,__ `-,
                          /@"\    \ \\ |  | ||/ // | \/  \  `-._`-,_.,
                         /  _.-.  .-\,___|  _-| / \ \/|_/ |     `-._._)
                         `-' f/ |       / __/ \__  /  |__/ \
                              `-'       |  -|   \__ \  |-' |
                                      __/   /__,-'   ) ,' _|'
                                    (((__.-'((___..-'((__,'

    why is there a "f" in the lion's mouth and a "y" on his rib cage?
    
    jus wunderin'...

    The f is for his teef and the y is for his strypes

>>>RE: 445.2 by SX4GTO::OLSON "Doug Olson, ISVETS Palo Alto"

>>> while human encroachment into their territories has substantially 
>>> increased the likelihood of encounters.

    445.7
>I doubt if this is a major cause.  Lots of people have always spent time in
>mountain lion country.  Attacks are almost not existent prior to the ending
>of hunting.

    
    Isn't lion hunting done with dogs? So how does a lion learn to fear
    human hunters? By the time a lion actually sees a human it's already 
    been treed by the dogs. So do hunters miss treed cougars? 
    
    I wonder if there is also a decline in available food.

Phil

<----- wow.... a snarf waitin to happen for 2 whole days and no one took it.... 

RE: 445.69 by MIMS::WILBUR_D

> Isn't lion hunting done with dogs? 

Usually.  


> So how does a lion learn to fear human hunters? 

Interesting question.  For well over a hundred years,  mountain lions were
hunted mostly because they were threat to livestock.  During this time, 
very few lion attacks on people occurred.  We stop hunting mountain lions, 
and in about a decade after this there are more attacks than the previous 
hundred years.   This is why I speculate that mountain lion fear of humans 
was protecting humans.

But of course,  that begs the question of how do the lions learn that humans 
are to fear?  Perhaps from investigating what happened to other lions?


> I wonder if there is also a decline in available food.

Can't say about California,  but in Colorado deer populations are up.  Deer
are the largest part of mountain lion diet.  Also,  and this is another 
possible cause,  deer are expanding into settled areas.


Phil

    So, what do these mountain lions control in calif?

    
    All the guns, especially assault rifles.
    

    Cool.

	It's just Nature's way of controlling the jogger population.

	Nature will do this when mankind is either unable or unwilling
	to control such pests.

Jim

    
    <--------
    
    By pests, I assume you mean the joggers.... right?
    

  <<< Note 445.76 by SOLVIT::KRAWIECKI "Be vewy caweful of yapping zebwas" >>>

    
>    By pests, I assume you mean the joggers.... right?
 

	Of course! ;-)

Jim
   

    100 years ago (or even 50) human encroachment and habitat destruction
    wasn't nearly as widespread was it is today. i really don't believe that 
    the lack of hunting is playing a great deal of leverage on the frequency 
    of attacks.

RE: 445.78 by WMOIS::GIROUARD_C

> 100 years ago (or even 50) human encroachment and habitat destruction
> wasn't nearly as widespread was it is today. 

100 years ago,  the area of cut forests was near the peak.  Forests have
been regrowing faster than being cut for at least the past 70 years.

The movement of people has been away from the rural areas to the cities for
the past 100 years.  There are far fewer people living in country than
there was 100 years ago.  


> i really don't believe that the lack of hunting is playing a great deal 
> of leverage on the frequency of attacks.

In New Hampshire,  I don't think that there is any question that past
hunting pressure has limited attacks.  Mountain lions have not been in New 
Hampshire this century.  As hunting of mountain lions has been largely 
stopped,  sooner or later,  New Hampshire will get mountain lions back. 
And then,  sooner or later,  there will be an mountain lion attack on a
human.  Of course,  New Hampshire is an extreme case. 

More realistic cases are Western states such as Colorado and California.


Phil

    Phil, must be the only area where people are going in the opposite
    direction and nature is making that kind of come back.
     
    still disagree on the hunting thing.

    If you hunt dangerous animals (successfully), there are fewer of that
    kind of dangerous animal.  If there are fewer of that kind of animal,
    the likelihood of a person being attacked by said animal is greatly
    reduced.
    If you stop hunting dangerous animals, which they did in this case,
    there will be a likelihood of more of these animals than there were
    when the hunting stopped, which there are.  
    I propose that the more of these dangerous animals you have, the more
    likely it becomes that a person will be attacked by said dangerous
    animal.

    To simplify, more dangerous animals, more people hurt, fewer dangerous
    animals, fewer people hurt.  How do you argue with this ? ! ? !

    Dan

    
    Ticks can be dangerous.  I bet more people are savaged by a tick
    and then ravaged by limey disease than are eaten by Mountain Loins.
    I mean, what could be more horrid than being turned into a Brit?
    
    Ticks are not rare either, so it's politikally correct to wipe the
    filthy little vermin scum off the face of the earth.  I advocate
    tick hunting.  You'd save more people, probably more than enough
    to make up the few lost to Loins. 

> eaten by Mountain Loins.

Odd images conjured up . . . 

    If you the destroy habitat of dangerous animals you increase the
    likelihood of attacks. The more you increase potential of contact
    from humans to dangerous animals you increase the potential for
    attacks. Is this not true as well?
    
    I believe that both contribute to the frequency (or increase) in the
    attack stats. I just believe that certain variables are more con-
    tributory to those stats.
    
    Chip

    rep: .81
    
    I disagree.  The more dangerous animals you hunt, the more pressure
    there is for them to survive, the more p.o.'d they get and the more
    attacks there are.  So, stay away from dangerous animals and they 
    won't be dangerous anymore.  :-)
    
    

    > If you the destroy habitat of dangerous animals you increase the
    > likelihood of attacks. The more you increase potential of contact
    > from humans to dangerous animals you increase the potential for
    > attacks. Is this not true as well?

    True, but not particularly relevant to what I was saying.  If the
    dangerous animals are no longer in large numbers, the likelihood of
    attack rapidly approaches zero.

    Dan

    
    Yes, but then where's the thrill in life?

    > The more dangerous animals you hunt, the more pressure
    > there is for them to survive, the more p.o.'d they get and the more
    > attacks there are.

    Not true, the more of them you hunt, the fewer of them there are,
    therefore there is less pressure on their survival.  If their source
    of food remains constant, and there are fewer for it to be split
    between, each animal gets more food.

    Dan

    > Yes, but then where's the thrill in life?
    
    Sex ?

Oh, you mean mountin' loins.

Re:.90 
	Are those anything like mountain oysters????

    sorry Dan, it is biologically attached to what you're saying...

    
    Short article in yesterday's Boston Globe stated there was a confirmed
    sighting of a moutain lion in northern Maine.
    
     The Wildlife Dept. took samples of hair from the spot where it was
    sighted... analyzed it, and determined it was indeed a mountain lion.

    
    The article I saw indicated the wildlife department took samples,
    and said they analyzed it and concluded it was the hair of a mountain
    lion.  They repeated this several times.
    
    But there was no background information that led me to believe
    that they took the samples properly, that the samples weren't tainted
    by NWO troops, that the "experts" can tell the difference between
    a mountain lion's hair and your common tabby cat's hair, etc etc etc
    etc....
    
    Frankly, there was little information in that article at all.
    
    
    Until Ken Gunderson rules on the validity of this evidence, I just
    don't buy it.
    
    								-mr. bill

    Watch it everyone,

    mr bill has lost his grip on reality.....

    Dan

    
    re: .94
    
    Check for seismic anomalies....
    
    NNTTM...
    

    well, the folks must be glad it was only a moutain lion and not a 
    mountain lion!