Conference back40::soapbox

    
    why isn't anyone in the box talking about the million man march?
     

     There has been (some) discussion in News Briefs. In the absence of
    African-American contributors, how much do you want us to say? It
    wasn't about us.

>  <<< Note 17.8699 by WAHOO::LEVESQUE "shifting paradigms without a clutch" >>>

>>   It wasn't about us.

	Hunh?  It wasn't about us?  It was about Americans, wasn't it?
	It was about what's going on in a segment of our society,
	wasn't it?    

    <----- I agree with Di.  While white America and a good percentage of
    black America along with all other segments of our society were not 
    included in the march, it is as much about us and our roles and 
    relationships within the greater community.  We need to be paying 
    attention to enable those willing to take responsibility for their 
    actions, regardless of color, while at the same time being aware of 
    the potential for new rifts to develop along racial lines.  We cannot 
    be passive participants in this process, like it or not.  
    
    Brian

    
    Then why weren't we invited?
    

     
    |   There has been (some) discussion in News Briefs. In the absence of
    |   African-American contributors, how much do you want us to say? It
    |   wasn't about us.
     
    that's a pretty sad commentary.  it most definitely was about us,
    or perhaps our concept of what "us" is...
    
    

    
    
    What do you think the reaction would be if there was a call for "white
    Americans" to gather and meet in D.C. to deal with all the issues
    (including racism) affecting us and the USA today?
    
     What if we told all our wives and SOs to stay home and mind business
    while we were away with all the "good ole boys"?
    
     What would be the mindset of others? What would the rhetoric be?
    
     What if we had, as the main speaker, someone with the same bigotry as
    Mr. Louis??? After all, it seems from yesterday, that the ends
    justified the means?  How about a David Duke? Or a Pat Buchanan?
    
    Can anyone say hypocritical?

   .8704  so... you don't think anyone would be discussing that
	  in Soapbox either?  

    
    Di...
    
    I gotta problem parsing that...
    

	I think Mark has been reading too many Jack Martin notes....

You mean "The 400,000 Man March", right?

You mean "The 400,000 Man March", right?

    
>>    I gotta problem parsing that...

    why - you speak English, don't you?  
    

    see also 566.*  This has been opened for your convenience.

      
  |  What do you think the reaction would be if there was a call for
  |  "white Americans" to gather and meet in D.C. to deal with all the issues
  |  (including racism) affecting us and the USA today?
    
  |  What if we told all our wives and SOs to stay home and mind
  |  business while we were away with all the "good ole boys"?
    
  |  What would be the mindset of others? What would the rhetoric be?
    
  |  What if we had, as the main speaker, someone with the same bigotry as
  |  Mr. Louis??? After all, it seems from yesterday, that the ends
  |  justified the means?  How about a David Duke? Or a Pat Buchanan?
    
  |  Can anyone say hypocritical?
    
     i grant you that farrakan (sp?) is scum, and all of your points
     are on target.  however i think there is indifference, frustration,
     and fear when it comes to race relations in the u.s.  i also see
     big-time denial of it amongst my peers.  i think it is noteworthy
     that in a conference in which people argue and opine about
     virtually every little political brohaha that there is such little
     discourse about something that is so vital to the future of our nation.
    
     mark pointed out that there are few afro-americans that participate
     in soapbox.  does anyone want to venture an opinion why?
    
    
    

    
    | You mean "The 400,000 Man March", right?
    
    that's a cheap shot.
    

      Is Farakhan that bad?  I am only going by whenever I have heard him
      and I don't have a problem with what I've heard him say.
    
      Even if he was a lot worse, people can change can't they?  I mean,
      Malcolm X changed, right?
    
      I'd like to be open to the possibility that the man could have
      undergone change.
    
    						Tony

    
>>      I'd like to be open to the possibility that the man could have
>>      undergone change.

	you mean since last week?  i thought that was when the
	"bloodsuckers" remark occurred.

    
    I watched Farakhan's speech; there was live coverage of it
    on CNN. Excellent speech and message.

    I hope it makes a difference in a few people's lives.

    -b

    
    one difference between malcolm x and farakhan is the level of
    hypocrisy.  my guess is that malcolm x would have stood his ground
    and pretty much have said the same thing independent of the audience.
    

In some circles it is believed that Farakhan played a major
role in the assassination of Malcolm X.

    
      I have no problem with LF holding his not-a-million mostly-men
     non-march.  The man is not so nuts (I wish he'd hold the anti-semitism
     though).  In fact, if it would get Clinton out of Washington, it
     would be worthwhile installing him there permanently.
    
      bb

	I wish they had shown more of the kid who was speaking. Man o man...
this kid had a LOT to say. 


Glen

    For a kid, there was allot of pepper in his speech!

    
    actually clinton's speech yesterday was one of the best i've ever
    heard from him.
    

re: .23

Watch out. That kinda stuff gets the corporate axe.

    
    | African American Population    4.9% of the Digital Population
    
    that's 3000 employees...
    

    
    | I wish they had shown more of the kid who was speaking. Man o
    | man... this kid had a LOT to say.
    
    
    | Glen
     
    
    who was the kid???
    

    >>What do you think the reaction would be if there was a call for "white
    >>Americans" to gather and meet in D.C. to deal with all the issues
    >>(including racism) affecting us and the USA today?
    
    Exactly this happens everyday in DC.  It's called Congress.  Granted
    there are a few non-whites that get in through the election process,
    but not many.
    
    -- Jim

    re .17:
    
>      Is Farakhan that bad?  I am only going by whenever I have heard him
>      and I don't have a problem with what I've heard him say.
>    
>      Even if he was a lot worse, people can change can't they?  I mean,
>      Malcolm X changed, right?
> 
>      I'd like to be open to the possibility that the man could have
>       undergone change.
    
    We might recall that many Americans during the 1930's said very similar
    things about a political leader in Germany: "He is a great leader, but
    we don't like some of his rhetoric", "He doesn't offend me".  To many,
    the similarities are frightening.  
    
    The "messenger" is part of the message; if the messenger is
    unacceptable, then the message is unacceptable.

    
    it appears, that if things don't improve for blacks in our
    society. Farakhan will be accepted as a leader, warts and all.
    
    maybe on a very large scale.
    
    
    
    
    

	Whatever it is, it will just not do any good for their cause if AA 
associate more and more with Islam. 

>	Whatever it is, it will just not do any good for their cause if AA 
>associate more and more with Islam. 

Oh?  What would make you say that?

    
    | Oh?  What would make you say that?
    
    it would be point of alienation in a predominately christian nation.
    

Oh, I see.  And all this time I thought that one of this nation's
cornerstones was religious freedom.  Oh well.

>>Oh?  What would make you say that?

	Since the time I wrote that I am now worried:

- that a fatwa might me issued against me
- A terrorist group might just blow up my car
- A mullah might cry from his mosque for action against people who have 
  defaced Koran
- I might be given hundered lashes - in public
- A holy war might be declared against my family, because Allah calls for
  justice against non-believers
- I might be deported out (if USA happens to be an Islamic state)

	I would be just not be concerned if I had said the same thing on any
other religious sect in this world..

	Now you see why I said that?!

    
   |  Oh, I see.  And all this time I thought that one of this nation's
   |  cornerstones was religious freedom.  Oh well.
     
    there is a big difference between the abstract principle of religious
    freedom and the social consequences thereof.  black folks have
    the right to become islamic or mormon or even (heaven forbid)
    episcopalian.  it does not mean that it won't make things harder for
    for racial reconcillation.
    

Well, we all have deal with our right-wing, holier-than-thou,
Christian hypocrite/lunatic faction in the grand ole US of A,
now don't we?  Don't see why Islam can't have theirs!!!

    Uhh..when was the last time you saw a Christian organization blow up a
    building?

I bet Timmy McVeigh calls himself a Christian!!

    
    .40,
    
    You mean, like the IRA?
    

They didn't invent the Holy Hand Grenade for looks.

    Hmmmmmm, how many of the pro-life nutters that have taken up violence
    are non-believers?  I agree with Bonnie.  

    
    The KKK is a "Christian" organization.
    

    |Don't see why Islam can't have theirs!!!
    
    The answer is obvious, they're wrong.
    
    ;')

    
 |   Well, we all have deal with our right-wing, holier-than-thou,
 |   Christian hypocrite/lunatic faction in the grand ole US of A,
 |   now don't we?  Don't see why Islam can't have theirs!!!
    
     get with the program.
    

    
    .44
    
    I don't think I care for this kinder, gentler Topaz.
    

       
       I'm sorry you feel that way, !Juan, but I'm glad that we're close
       enough that you feel comfortable in sharing.
       
       Hugs,
       
       --Mr Topaz

>get with the program.

get yourself some good colon blow.

       > get yourself some good colon blow.
       
       So what's wrong with Super Colon Blow?

    
    
    please explain to me why you think a mass conversion of black america
    to islam would not further erode race relations.

  .53  surely it would.

    
    .53
    
    I don't think that's in question.  The issue is:  Who is being held
    responsible for the erosion, the converting blacks or the uncomfortable
    whites?
    

    >	Hunh?  It wasn't about us?  It was about Americans, wasn't it?
    >	It was about what's going on in a segment of our society,
    >	wasn't it?    
    
     The march was not focused on whites, the march was focused on blacks.
    To the extent with which we must endeavor to coexist, it was about us,
    but what I was saying is that this was a rally that was focused on
    black males and their assumption of responsibility to help themselves
    individually and as a race. 

>    please explain to me why you think a mass conversion of black america
>    to islam would not further erode race relations.

Yes, indeed.  This is the point you were making.

Do you know the point that I was making?  Please explain to me
why one radical religious faction is okay, while another is not?
Not all people who practice Islam are fundamentalist crazies.

And why was the "get with the program" comment necessary?

    
    .50
    
    You are starting to sound like Gary Waite, gem man. This is not
    good, snap out of it.

>>  <<< Note 566.56 by WAHOO::LEVESQUE "shifting paradigms without a clutch" >>>

>>    To the extent with which we must endeavor to coexist, it was about us,

	Which is exactly why it would make sense for us to be discussing it
	in the 'box.

    .55

	For what reason(s) do you think whites would be uncomfortable?
	Would there be no valid reason to be uncomfortable?

    
    | Do you know the point that I was making?  Please explain to me
    | why one radical religious faction is okay, while another is not?
    
    not a question of one being okay and another not.  what is better
    for america 10 radical religious groups or 1? i would argue the
    fewer the better.  
    
    | Not all people who practice Islam are fundamentalist crazies.
    
    in general i agree.  however black islamic fundamentalism in this
    country has not had a very good history of religious tolerance or
    political moderation.  it has been accurately associated with 
    black seperatists movements.
    
    | And why was the "get with the program" comment necessary?
     
    it wasn't.  i was elevating the level of sarcasm that i thought
    you introduced.  my apologies.
    
    
    
    
    

    
    According to a brief snippet I heard on the news last night, the police
    reported that there were no "incidents" before, during, or after the march.
    
    This was nice to hear, considering that usually large groups of any
    sort have some "incidents".
    

    
    	Apparently there were no white people there to start trouble.
    
    	8^)
    

    
    .60

	>For what reason(s) do you think whites would be uncomfortable?
    
    Same reasons, I guess, that racial/ethnic/religious groups are often
    uncomfortable with each other: ignorance (perhaps too strong a word,
    but I'm too lazy to look up a better one :^) breeds xenophobia.
    
	>Would there be no valid reason to be uncomfortable?
    
    Perhaps.  I know Christians really give me the creeps.  ;^)
    
    My point is: why focus on `the conversions' as the problem?  It makes 
    it sound as though blacks will be responsible for any resulting racial
    disharmony.  Sort of like saying that prostitutes should expect to be
    raped from time to time.
    
    If mass conversions to Islam are going to be the cause of racial strife 
    in America, then "religion" is not the real issue, it's merely a 
    convenient hook.

    
    
    I can tell you why it would make me uncomfortable and that is that I
    would be afraid to offend someone by being taken out of context or that
    the meaning would be interpreted different than the way it was meant. 
    I mean look at the box, things are always misconscrewed......

    
    I can think of three families who live in my neighborhood
    that I know to be Moslem. One family is from Iran, another
    from Pakistan (I think) and the third are AA. All very
    nice families. Higher than average sense of what I would
    consider true "family values."
    
    I don't think it matters what religion someone is. What it
    boils down to is how the conduct themselves. Millions of
    AA people banding together and building a community free
    of violence, drugs and despair, even if they do it under
    the NoI banner, does not scare me. In fact, I would welcome
    it!
    
    -b

    
    .61
    
    >i would argue the fewer the better.  
    
    And some would argue that the size of the number has no intrinsic
    value.  And in any case, how would one interrupt the natural
    propogation of religious beliefs?
    
    >in general i agree.  however black islamic fundamentalism in this
    >country has not had a very good history of religious tolerance or
    >political moderation.  it has been accurately associated with 
    >black seperatists movements.
    
    Christianity has been "accurately associated" with white separatist
    movements.  Christian fundamentalism in the U.S. has not had a very
    good history of religious tolerance or political moderation.
    

    >> The march was not focused on whites, the march was focused on
    >> blacks.  
    
    Mark, much of what you said about responsibility is true.  In LF's
    speech, he took great pains to point out that there was a legacy of
    white supremacy holding AA men in particular down.  This is the root 
    of the problem these people face according to him.  The internal 
    fighting amongst AA men, the black on black crime, the perpetuation of 
    crime and the cycle of poverty were allowing the imbalance of power to
    remain as it is or worsen.  The rally was about personal responsibility
    but it was also about pinning the blame on the founding fathers and
    their ancestors.  It was about tearing down the white power base 
    and getting out from under the thumb of oppression.  This is what 
    I heard in LF's speech yesterday regarding how white America fits 
    into the scheme of things.  
    
    Brian

>>    in general i agree.  however black islamic fundamentalism in this
>>    country has not had a very good history of religious tolerance or

	Remove the words 'black' and replace the word 'in this country' to
'throughout this world', and still that statement is very true

    
    
    The organizers of the march are sueing the government for saying that
    there were only 400,000 people in attendance.  

    
    It's not Friday yet, Mike.
    

    
    re: .68
    
    Couldn't be "The Blame Game" again, now, could it?
    

    
    
    I kid you not, Joan.  I heard it just a minute ago on the radio nooz.
    
    
    Mike

    
    .73
    
    Too much.  Too freakin' much.
    

    
    | Christianity has been "accurately associated" with white separatist
    | movements.  Christian fundamentalism in the U.S. has not had a very
    | good history of religious tolerance or political moderation.
         
    i believe solutions for racial reconciliation are going to have
    to leverage institutions that emphasize common values of our
    mutual humanity.  i can't think of a better place to start than
    within our churches.  
    

    
    don't tell me.
    Cockrun is filing the suit.
    
    
    

    
    
    Remember, it's what I heard on the radio, and I've only heard it from
    the one station (and no, it wasn't Rush Limbaugh).  
    
    
    Mike

    
>>    My point is: why focus on `the conversions' as the problem?  It makes 
>>    it sound as though blacks will be responsible for any resulting racial
>>    disharmony. 

	Saying that a mass conversion to Islam could result in strife
	isn't saying that those converting would cause the strife by
	the mere fact of their conversion.  

    I am not sure Andy.  It may have merely been a rallying cry for black 
    men to solidify themselves into a cohesive political and economic 
    force.  I did not hear any rhetoric about white Americans owing a debt 
    to black Americans.  I saw a lot of your normal joe/jane on the 
    street of all colors agreeing with the stated priniciples of the march.  
    I am not sure how to reconcile the stated goals of the march with the 
    what I took to be inflammatory remarks made by LF.  The number of folks
    inteviewed during the day at the rally seemed to have mixed thoughts 
    about the purpose and the messages but all seemed to be somewhat
    inspired by the number of people that showed up.  I think that in and
    of itself is positive. 
    
    Brian

    
    Is it, or is it not, true that unlike a majority of modern
    American ethnic/racial groups, that black people in America
    got their "start" here as slaves?

    I don't think that it's a stretch for someone to use this
    fact to explain the unique problems which face AAs.

    Frankly, I think that people insist on hearing "hate the
    whites" when Farakhan says these things, but I honestly
    do not believe that is his intent. Maybe he should leave
    the historical context out of his message since it is
    widely understood and only perpetuates the divisiveness.
    But maybe we should stop trying to read things into what
    he's saying...

    I see his message as "black folks, get your $#!+ together."

    -b

>>    I see his message as "black folks, get your $#!+ together."

	And what is his message to the Jews?

    
    .75

    >i can't think of a better place to start than within our churches.
    
    "Our" churches?  Not theirs?  Or, is that really "our church"?  
    

    Churches float.

>       <<< Note 566.40 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal" >>>

>    Uhh..when was the last time you saw a Christian organization blow up a
>    building?

Let's see,
Acid and/or firebombing attacks on womens clinics
Doctors at those clinics shot and killed
Women(customers/staff) at clinic in Brookline shot/killed

I think that qualifies.

Amos

    
    
    I think you're way off base, Bri.  His message is one of divisiveness. 
    He wants blacks to take control of their destiny, but there is talk in
    his other speeches and in the speeches of his followers which are
    racist, and anti-semitic.  
    
    
    Mike

        >> I see his message as "black folks, get your $#!+ together."

    >	And what is his message to the Jews?

    By "his message", I meant his speech yesterday. That
    particular message didn't mention Jews as I recall (other
    than to mention Synagogue as one of the places one could
    join.)

    What his overall message to Jews is, if any, I don't know.

    -b

    
    	RE: Amos
    
    	2 of your 3 examples involved shooting ... IE, guns.
    
    	Ban firearms!!
    

    
    Bri, so are we to pick out the good and ignore the rest?  That is
    dangerous in my eyes.
    
    Mike

    
    |    "Our" churches?  Not theirs?  Or, is that really "our church"?
    
    i don't follow.
    

    
    .78

	>Saying that a mass conversion to Islam could result in strife
	>isn't saying that those converting would cause the strife by
	>the mere fact of their conversion.
    
    Not directly, no.  But the inference is there.  Remember, it's usually
    phrased in ways like "...they won't be doing themselves any favours by
    converting..." or "...it will just not do any good for their cause if AA 
    associate more and more with Islam," the unspoken implication being that 
    if "they" "don't" "convert", there will be no problem.
       

    
    >Bri, so are we to pick out the good and ignore the rest?  That is
    >dangerous in my eyes.
     
    
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be the current thread in the 
    priestly pedophilia topic...
    
    

    
    .90
    
    Just wondering what you mean by "our churches".  The Christian church?
    Are Islamic churches capable of contributing to the solution?
    

    I heard a lot of black "men on the street" distancing themselves from
    Farrakhan yet supporting the black solidarity and assumption of
    responsibility for themselves. Despite Farrakhan's divisiveness and
    anti-semitism, he does have some positive messages, some messages that
    blacks would do well to heed (IMO). Respecting your wife, renouncing
    violence, accepting the responsibility for your family- these are good
    messages regardless of who says them.

    
    re: .84
    
    Amos,
    
     Were "Christian organizations" involved with all three of your
    examples?
    
    Because the fruitcake in Brookline is/was a Catholic makes that
    "Christian org." involved in the complicity?
    

    
    	RE: Doc
    
    	We're lucky white people don't have those same problems, eh?
    

    
    Mike,

    I don't see it as ours to pick out. There were (some large number)
    of black men there yesterday. I assume they were there because
    they were interested in, and even agreed with, Minister Farakhan's
    message. I heard Farakhan tell them to go home and make an
    effort to improve their community. If that is what they do,
    then a good purpose has been served.

    If this rally was about Minister Farakhan solidifying his own
    power base, then the rally was probably not a great thing (although
    not necessarily a bad thing either.) On the surface at least,
    it didn't seem to be about Minister Farahkan, but about black
    people getting their lives on track.

    Give it a chance. Don't assume the worst.

    -b

    >	We're lucky white people don't have those same problems, eh?
    
     Take to the stupid comments topic.

    Amos:
    
    Ever hear of a Jihad?  Ever hear that if one loses their life for the
    cause of Islam then they spend eternity in Paradise?  This is NOT one
    of the tenets of Christianity.
    
    -Jack

    
    .95, Andy
    
    I mentioned the KKK and the IRA; both are "organizations" and both
    are "christian".
    

    wherethehellis Brandon?

    
    re: .100
    
    Yeah, but !Joan...
    
    You know the old cliche'...
    
    I can sit in my garage all day long and make vroooom noises all I
    want...
    
    
      It still don't make me a car...
    

    I didn't know the church, or a church of any kind sponsored the KKK.
    
    What church in particular are you talking about?
    
    I didn't know any church endorsed or sponsored the IRA.  Which church
    are you talking about?

>       <<< Note 566.99 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal" >>>

>    Ever hear of a Jihad?  Ever hear that if one loses their life for the
>    cause of Islam then they spend eternity in Paradise?  This is NOT one
>    of the tenets of Christianity.
    
 It is my understanding that that is a belief of only some sects of Muslims.
Not All!

Just as there are "Christians" who call for destruction of womens clinics
and the staff thereof.

And yes the whacko in Brookline did what he did because of the "conspiracy"
against Catholics. 

> .91

>"...they won't be doing themselves any favours by
>    converting..." or "...it will just not do any good for their cause if AA 
>    associate more and more with Islam," the unspoken implication being that 
>    if "they" "don't" "convert", there will be no problem.

Exactly.  And it reveals such a patronizing attitude.  That's what
pissed me off in the first place.

    The radical fringe groups of course.  However, it is important to
    understand that martyrdom is a tenet of the Muslim faith.  It is not of
    Christianity.  Therefore, as far as the foundation of beliefs or the
    core of the faith, Christianity and the Muslim faith are apples and
    oranges.
    
    -Jack

    
    .102, .103,
    
    Jack:  I'm not talking about *any* church.  I'm talking about radical
    terrorist groups that commit violent acts, and also happen to associate
    themselves very strongly with Christianity.
    
    Do you believe the the "church" of Islam, or mainstream Islamic thought,
    advocates terrorism?  Or is it only a matter of radical fringe groups
    that happen to associate themselves with Islam?
    
    Andy:  Same question.  Are "Islamic militant groups" any more closely
    related to "Islam" than "radical Christian groups" are to "Christianity"?
    

    
    Never said they were !Joan... 
    
    I would never make that claim/statement...
    
    Doesn't matter what make of car you claim to be...
    

    
    .106

    >The radical fringe groups of course.  However, it is important to
    >understand that martyrdom is a tenet of the Muslim faith.
    
    How many devotees of the Islamic faith martyr themselves on a daily
    basis?
    

                                          
    
    
    .106
    
    And I suppose that you believe all christains should talk in tongues
    and play with snakes Jack, just because its written in the bible?
    
    Like Christians, the muslim faith has many fractions and each fraction
    reads what in wants from their text.
    
    Christian, Jewish and Muslim religions all have the same roots.

    
    .108, Andy
    
    Well, then, it's just as accurate to label the KKK or the IRA as
    "Christian organizations" as it is to label Hamas as an "Islamic
    organization".
    

    
    .101
    
    Tired of us squabbling brats, Doctah?
    
    :^)
    

    Of course handling snakes is radical.  The Bible doesn't command us to
    handle snakes in order to have eternal life.
    
    I know that fringe groups are everywhere.  But don't state that the KKK
    is Christian.  If it isn't backed by a church, then you can't state
    this unequivocally.
    
    -Jack

.106

>However, it is important to
>    understand that martyrdom is a tenet of the Muslim faith.

Other Islamic rules include:

                          - no alcohol 
                          - no drugs

These are also very important to understand.

    
    re: .110
    
    What kinds of fractions we talking about here?
    
    What kinds of numerators? Denominators?

    | Just wondering what you mean by "our churches".  The Christian
    | church?  Are Islamic churches capable of contributing to the
    | solution?
    
    okay, i see what you are saying.  what i'm trying to point out is
    that there are lots of networks and organizations
    throughout the country that link christian churches.  this is an
    infrastructure that is already in place and that has served the
    country well for dealing with social movements.  for instance
    methodist organizations have had a long history in this country
    for working for social change (establishing child labor laws,
    working for women's suffrage, working against slavery).  ecumenical
    (sp) organizations exist across the protestant/catholic divide.  that's
    not to say that there couldn't be christian/jewish/islamic orgs
    as well, but my experience is that this would be harder to acheive.
       

    
    re: .111 !Joan...
    
    Still  don't make it right...
    
    and I would say, rather than.."Well, then, it's just as accurate..."
    
    "Well, then, it's just as inaccurate..."
    

    
    .116

    >that's not to say that there couldn't be christian/jewish/islamic orgs
    >as well, but my experience is that this would be harder to acheive.
     
    It certainly shouldn't be dismissed as unworkable, however.
      

    
      Um, martyrdom IS important in the Christian teching, as I understand
     it.  Martyrdom was the holy example set by Jesus Christ, who chose
     to die a terrible slow death.  Peter, Paul, martyrs all.
    
      bb

    
    .117
    
    >and I would say, rather than.."Well, then, it's just as accurate..."
    >"Well, then, it's just as inaccurate..."
    
    Which, of course, was my point.  ;^)
    

    
    I knew that...
    

    >that's not to say that there couldn't be christian/jewish/islamic orgs
    >as well, but my experience is that this would be harder to
    >acheive.
    
    | It certainly shouldn't be dismissed as unworkable, however.
      
    we have a huge cultural gulf between black and white people.
    adding the high religious barriers that historically have existed
    between the major religions makes this gulf wider and harder
    to breach.  my sense is that is why islam has been so attractive
    to black folks in this country who have separatist leanings.    
                          

Yeah, and who's that guy shot threw with a bunch of
arrows?? 

    
    .123
          
    >adding the high religious barriers that historically have existed
    >between the major religions makes this gulf wider and harder
    >to breach.
    
    What you're saying, of course, is that blacks should stick with
    Christianity.
    
    Maybe whites should convert to Islam.   :^)
                          

    
    .114

>Other Islamic rules include:

>                          - no alcohol 
>                          - no drugs

>These are also very important to understand.
    
    But...but...understanding is *so* hard.  It's easier not to.
    

    
    
    
    .113
    
    >I know that fringe groups are everywhere.  But don't state that the KKK
    >is Christian.  If it isn't backed by a church, then you can't state
    >this unequivocally.
    
    >-Jack
    
    
    OK but Webster's does.
    
    	Ku Klux Klan: A post Civil War secret fraternal group held to
        confine its membership to American Born white Christains.
    
    
    I think you'll have to agree with Joan that just because a group
    associates it's self with Christian values doesn't mean that group
    is inheritantly good nor muslim inheritantly bad as you believe.
    
    

    That's fine, I believe that.
    
    Re: Martyrdom.  Jesus was NOT a martyr.  Jesus came with the express
    mission to be a sacrifice for the world.  A specific purpose came from
    his dying.  
    
    -Jack

>>             <<< Note 566.125 by TROOA::COLLINS "Cyberian Puppy" >>>
    
>>    What you're saying, of course, is that blacks should stick with
>>    Christianity.

	I can't speak for Mr. Hanckel of course, but I'm having trouble
	seeing why pointing out that there may be problems inherent
	with some action or course or whatever necessarily means that
	the person pointing it out thinks it simply shouldn't happen.
	I see what he's saying, but I certainly don't believe
	that "blacks should stick with Christianity".  I haven't sensed
	that that's what he's saying either.  

    Does not a martyr die for a cause, or sacrifice his life?

    Yes, but Jesus rose on the third day!  Therefore, in my opinion he is
    not a martyr.  He conquered death.
    
    -Jack

Well, praise be to Allah.

| <<< Note 566.131 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal" >>>

| Yes, but Jesus rose 

	Axil's brother?

    
    .129

	>I can't speak for Mr. Hanckel of course, but I'm having trouble
	>seeing why pointing out that there may be problems inherent
	>with some action or course or whatever necessarily means that
	>the person pointing it out thinks it simply shouldn't happen.
    
    Well, no, no-one has stood up and actually said "blacks should stick 
    with Christianity".  I still believe that it's the underlying message.
    
    If you neighbour leans over the fence and says "If you don't prime that
    surface first, the paint will peel," he's NOT saying "You better prime
    that surface first, I'm telling you!"
    
    But he thinks you should prime the surface first, doesn't he?
    
    Simply saying "there may be problems" might be accurate, but what's
    the real point to the statement?  What "solution" is implied for
    avoiding the "problems"?
     

>>             <<< Note 566.134 by TROOA::COLLINS "Cyberian Puppy" >>>
    
>>    Simply saying "there may be problems" might be accurate, but what's
>>    the real point to the statement?  What "solution" is implied for
>>    avoiding the "problems"?

     Does there have to be an implied "solution" when one is expressing
     trepidation about something?  I don't know if Bob is implying
     anything.  I'm not.       

>>    Do you believe the the "church" of Islam, or mainstream Islamic thought,
>>    advocates terrorism?  

	To a large extent Yes! Don't give examples like: I have a friend Mr.
Mohammed Izak, my neighbor who is the most gentle creature on earth..blah blah..
What I am talking here is collective Islamic pscicology(sp?) as seen now, in the
past decades and the past few centuries!.

	How many Islamic political or religious leaders have you seen speak and
act against terrorism..? When you hold high places and don't condemn, it means
you are indirectly advocating it!
    
>>    Andy:  Same question.  Are "Islamic militant groups" any more closely
>>    related to "Islam" than "radical Christian groups" are to "Christianity"?
  
	Yes!

More on "Islam and violence" on a seperate topic! 

    Mr. Topaz???  Mr. Topaz....Where are you!!!!???

	This just in.....

	Sylvia Dombrotosky is organizing a 10 million women march
	on Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.  This is to draw the nation's
	attention to babushka-clad Polish-American women and their
	stuggle to have kielbasa and peroogies(sp?) recognized as
	the national dish.

    RE: .136
    
    Oooooooooooooooooooh brother.
    
    -b

    What does it feel like to be caught in a stuggle?

<---you should be able to answer that!

    ZZ       attention to babushka-clad Polish-American women and their
    ZZ        stuggle to have kielbasa and peroogies(sp?) recognized as
    ZZ        the national dish.
    
    Does anybody here remember Topdoc::Ahern?

    
    	No, but if you hum a few bars I'll try and join in.
    

    Colour me stupid.

    RE: .94
    
    BINGO.  This was an observance I had as well.  "Yeah, yeah, yeah, he
    says a lot of bad stuff but the basic messages are good to listen to
    and heed."  Much of it is quite simple really.  Know right from wrong
    and help others to stay on the right path as well.  
    
    IMO, there was a lot of good for folks of all walks to listen to.  It
    was difficult at time to cull the meaningful from the rehtoric though.  
    There are interesting times ahead of us I believe.  
    
    Brian

>Well, praise be to Allah.

Yes, praise be to Allah (the Arabic word for God, used by Christians in
Palestine, Egypt, Lebanon, and even in the Roman Catholic Arabic Cathedral
in Boston).

/john

    >>	We're lucky white people don't have those same problems, eh?
    >
    > Take to the stupid comments topic.

    	OK, I went back and read your entry again, to make sure I wasn't
    	making things up the last time.  And it still doesn't read too
    	well.

    	You said:
    
    >responsibility for themselves. Despite Farrakhan's divisiveness and
    >anti-semitism, he does have some positive messages, some messages that
    >blacks would do well to heed (IMO). Respecting your wife, renouncing
    >violence, accepting the responsibility for your family- these are good
    >messages regardless of who says them.
    
    	And it still looks unfair to me.  A good number of whites would
    	do well to heed these messages as well, "regardless of who says
    	them".
    

    
    .135

     >Does there have to be an implied "solution" when one is expressing
     >trepidation about something?  I don't know if Bob is implying
     >anything.  I'm not.
    
    You may not be, but .61 says "the fewer the better". 

     
    |   Simply saying "there may be problems" might be accurate, but what's
    |   the real point to the statement?  What "solution" is implied for
    |   avoiding the "problems"?
     
    i would interpret wholesale abandonment of christianity by the black 
    community as an expression of separation from the cultural
    underpinnings that have historically bound white and black america.
      
     

NPR reports that the organizers are suing the park service because of the
400,000 estimate.

/john

    
    yes, heard that too. the correct figure was 400,001.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    
    .149
     
    >i would interpret wholesale abandonment of christianity by the black 
    >community as an expression of separation from the cultural
    >underpinnings that have historically bound white and black america.
     
    Are you *serious*?
    
    Tell you what...to *this* outsider, white and black America don't
    appear to have been very "bound" at any point in time.  And it's
    also not drastically different here in Canada.  And the embrace of
    Islam by unhappy blacks is but one indication of that.
    
    Will this "mass conversion" *cause* racial disharmony, or is it a 
    *result* of racial disharmony?
     

    >	And it still looks unfair to me.  A good number of whites would
    >	do well to heed these messages as well, "regardless of who says
    >	them".
    
     Why don't you point out exactly where I claimed that this was a black
    problem, or where I said that white people needn't heed such messages.
    Failing that, you could point out where I implied such things. Failing
    that, you could admit your comment was ludicrous and apologize for the
    throwaway comment which added heat without light.

    I don't get it. The police, with the use of aerial photos and a grid
    system, estimate the throng at 400,000 give or take 20% and this is turned
    into a lie by white supremacists? Obviously the numbers were more
    important than the message. Too bad.

    every single group that puts together a protest march complains that
    the parks service underestimates the crowd. This is the first time,
    however, that I've heard of a lawsuit being threatened. (You can only
    imagine how they are going to show harm...)

    Yes, but calling the estimaters white supremacists makes you look like
    a name calling idiot requiring a good colon blow. (tm)

    .124
    
    St Sebastian.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    
    
    So, if a Klan leader had a rally and esoused peace and love and
    resposibility, would that be as well received as this march was?  
    
    Can we seperate the message from the messenger?
    
    
    Mike

    
    nnttm

    Often not.  Especially when the messenger has a history of inflammatory
    rhetoric.  A Klan memeber, Grand Wizzer or whatever the pointy heads
    call their leader, giving a speech preaching for love and understanding
    of all fellow human beans would fall on deaf ears.  If the same person
    had previously denounced their hateful ways publicly, maybe this would
    be more credible, maybe.  
    
    I can understand many segments of the population not being able to hear
    what positive messages there were by LF specifically.  Out of context,
    many of the messages delivered were applicable to all segments of
    society.  I believe the meaning or at least the intent changes somewhat
    in the overall context of LF's speechifying
    
    Brian

    no correction would be necessary.  Never saw a violent winebibber didja?
                                                                      

    
    er no Dr. Dan, I believe I haven't. shame on me, woe is me, etc....

    
    	OK, Doc, I'll point out that particular passage AGAIN:
    
    >responsibility for themselves. Despite Farrakhan's divisiveness and
    >anti-semitism, he does have some positive messages, *some messages that
    >blacks would do well to heed (IMO)*. Respecting your wife, renouncing
    >violence, accepting the responsibility for your family- these are good
    >messages regardless of who says them.
    
    
    	Apparently I'm reading this incorrectly?
    

    
    
    Don't worry Mark B, I won't thank you.  Most people would have seen
    that as a typo and let it pass.  It's so nice to have the trivials
    amongst us.
    
    Mike

    
    Mike, go have some coffee!
    
    

    
    Mikey, are we having a bad day, today???? hhmmmm

    >	Apparently I'm reading this incorrectly?
    
     It's not your reading but your inferring that is problematic. Who were
    Farrakhan and all of the other speakers addressing?

    
    
    I'm fine, Deb.  Just giving Mark a little crap, all in fun.  
    
    
    Mike

     
     |   Are you *serious*?
    
    on one level, no, because i don't believe that such a conversion
    will occur.  the role of churches in black society run too deep.
    besides i'm arguing with a canadian.  
    
     |
     |  Tell you what...to *this* outsider, white and black America don't
     |  appear to have been very "bound" at any point in time.  And it's
     |  also not drastically different here in Canada.  And the embrace of
     |  Islam by unhappy blacks is but one indication of that.
    
    i think the success of the civil rights movement in the 60's in large
    part was due to the fact that the moral high ground was established
    by a black minister.  it's hard to argue with someone when they base
    their convictions on the principles of a religion that is common
    ground between two opposing factions.  
    
    | Will this "mass conversion" *cause* racial disharmony, or is it a
    | *result* of racial disharmony?
     
    both.  i don't see how one is mutually exclusive to the other.
    
                                        

    
    AP 18 Oct 95 1:28 EDT V0851
 
    Copyright 1995 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
 
    Leader Claims Million Marched

    WASHINGTON (AP) -- Leaders of the Million Man March say the National
    Park Service seriously undercounted the crowd and will have to prove in
    court how it arrived at the official figure of 400,000. 

    "They falsely said to the world that 400,000 black men came when they
    well know there were more than a million," said Louis Farrakhan,
    minister of the Nation of Islam, which staged Monday's huge rally on
    the National Mall. 

>   "There never was a demonstration or gathering in the city of Washington
>   to equal what happened yesterday," he said Tuesday at a news
>   conference. "For what reason would anyone fail to give us credit but
>   racism?" 

    The figure announced by the park service would make the rally the
    fourth-largest demonstration ever but 200,000 people short of the
    record set in 1969 with a Vietnam protest march. 

    "We don't think we are racist; we think we acted in a professional
    way," said Maj. Robert Hines, spokesman for the park service. "We know
    they are unhappy with the count as have been a lot of other
    organizations in the past."  Hines said the park service made three
    photos from a helicopter, the first at 9 a.m. and the last at 3 p.m.
    when the crowd was at its peak. The count is made by comparing density
    of people in various sectors, and getting input from city police and
    transportation authorities. 

    "It is an estimate," Hines said. "There is not an exact science to it."
    A million men, he said, would fill the National Mall from the Lincoln
    Memorial to the Capitol but pictures showed the crowds at maximum
    density only the first few blocks, from the Capitol steps to the
    National Gallery of Art. 
 

    
    	Maybe the other 600,000 were riding the Metro at the time ?
    
    

	The Metro..... THE BEST transit service I have ever had the pleasure of
riding on. Of course I only have Boston to compare it to. :-) 

>the moral high ground was established
>    by a black minister.  it's hard to argue with someone when they base
>    their convictions on the principles of a religion that is common
>    ground between two opposing factions. 

Oh, it was still quite easy for the white religious leaders to argue
that it just wasn't the "right" time for blacks to speak up and protest.
Read MLK's "Letter from the Birmingham Jail".

    .169
     
    >|   Are you *serious*?
    >
    >on one level, no...i'm arguing with a canadian.

    Wise man.   ;^)  
    
    >it's hard to argue with someone when they base
    >their convictions on the principles of a religion that is common
    >ground between two opposing factions.

    Well, I venture to say that black youth today have found Christianity
    unsuited to their needs, being a religion that is generally associated
    with white Europe and the western world.  Blacks embraced Christianity
    in a big way during the 20th Century, but they probably don't feel as
    though it's bought them much.
    
    >| Will this "mass conversion" *cause* racial disharmony, or is it a
    >| *result* of racial disharmony?
    > 
    >both.  i don't see how one is mutually exclusive to the other.
    
    Oh, they're not mutually exclusive, by any means.  But don't overlook 
    the chicken/egg factor here.

    Ultimately, my position is this:  If the black community decides to
    embrace Islam, so what?  As a white, middle class male, I don't see
    how it would be of any concern to me.  And, if I am concerned, then
    maybe I'm part of the problem.  To focus on "black conversion" as a
    potential source of racial unrest is to ignore the white role in that
    same unrest.

    jc
                                        

    
    The Park Service should countersue the organizers for utilizing
    public property to stage a racist, sexist event.
    
    It would have just as much merit.
    

    
    Why is the park service involved in estimating crowds in the first
    place?
    
    ed

    
    Because inquiring minds want to know.
    

re: .176, Ed

Presumably for consistency's sake. They're supposed to have some experience
at estimating attendence in National Parks - moreso than your average
attendee. They also have supposedly done studies which apply a grid to
the area surveyed, so that they can determine density based on the extent
of the crowd.

    
    
       
    | Well, I venture to say that black youth today have found Christianity
    | unsuited to their needs, being a religion that is generally
    | associated with white Europe and the western world.  
    
    so where do we disagree?  i'm arguing the same thing.  a rejection
    of western society by a large sector of americans is hardly a 
    neutral event.  i would see it as very bad for our country.   
    
    | Ultimately, my position is this:  If the black community decides to
    | embrace Islam, so what?  As a white, middle class male, I don't see
    | how it would be of any concern to me.  And, if I am concerned, then
    | maybe I'm part of the problem.  
    
    i would argue the exact opposite.  to ignore the rejection of western
    ideals would make you very much part of the problem. it would
    reflect the general indifference that white society has had 
    towards blacks.  
    
    | To focus on "black conversion" as a
    | potential source of racial unrest is to ignore the white role in
    | that same unrest.
    
    that's baloney.  to cite one source of racial disharmony is not to
    ignore others. 

    
    | Read MLK's "Letter from the Birmingham Jail".
    
    I'll reread it tonight.
    

    
    At this point, I really don't care what goes on in the mind of
    Farakhan.
    
    If he can get the gangs in L.A, or the community in the rough
    parts of L.A to stop killing each other and people on the
    streets. Then good.
    
    The police can't do it. The government can't do it. Nobody
    sitting behind a terminal in corporate America is gonna do
    it. So if he can get people motivated to stop all the
    violence, it's fine with me. Warts and all.
    
    Dave

    .179
       
    >a rejection
    >of western society by a large sector of americans is hardly a 
    >neutral event.  i would see it as very bad for our country.

    Well...apparently Islam is more appealing to some members of the
    black community than Christianity is.  Perhaps Christianity is lacking. 
    In any case, bad or good, it'll happen, or it won't.  Arguing from a
    non-religous position, I see no reason why blacks should favour
    Christianity over Islam, or Islam over Christianity.  But hearing a
    Christian argue against the conversion, I can't help but think of it
    as chauvinistic.
    
    >to ignore the rejection of western
    >ideals would make you very much part of the problem. it would
    >reflect the general indifference that white society has had 
    >towards blacks.

    I don't think it has anything to do with indifference; I think it shows
    a willingness to respect the decision that is theirs to make.  To claim
    to know better for them is patronizing.  But then, that's not uncommon
    in the arena known as `religion'.
    
    >to cite one source of racial disharmony is not to ignore others.

    But you STILL seem to be saying that blacks should become or remain
    Christian, not that whites should become Islamic.  I don't see how it's
    anyone's business but the individual involved, except in as much as
    certain religions can't give up their missionary activities.
    

    RE:  The park service...
    
    They have jurisdiciton over much if not all of the capitol.  The Mall,
    the monuments etc. are all under park service supervision.  

    Re:  Park Service....
    
    Also probably have some degree of responsibility in maintaining order,
    getting emergency vehicles in in case of medical emergencies etc;
    perhaps over-seeing cleanup after rallies etc. (although I did hear
    some rep of Park Service compliment this group stating they left the
    area almost spotless).
    
    

>    | Read MLK's "Letter from the Birmingham Jail".
    
>    I'll reread it tonight.

I'll reread it also.  It is such a compelling piece of
literature. 

 

    
    <---   so is Curious George. :-)

    Pretty sad when people embrace a racist, anti-semite like this.

    
    not being an american, i don't think you have quite the vested
    interest in the well being of this country as i would have. 
    (this is not meant as an insult, just simply a reflection on
    your perspective.)  that being the case it's easy to float
    hypotheticals about how, in a perfect society, religion and
    culture shouldn't matter.  i live in a country that has 
    big race problems and is in the humble process of trying to acheive 
    a more perfect union.  this weekend, if i wanted to connect with
    a group of black folks, i could talk to a few people at church
    and they would quickly refer me to other congregations that
    are predominately black.  there would be a level of acceptance
    that i would have, that otherwise as a white, would be absent
    without this common linkage.  you can argue that such a state
    is not perfect and lamentable, but it is the reality and it would
    be very sad if this common bond was lost.  (btw someone earlier
    floated the notion that adoption of christianity by blacks was
    a 20th century phenominon.  where they got that idea, i'd like to
    know.)
    
    i don't think i'm being chauvinistic if the rejection of 
    christianity is, in your words, a rejection of western civilization.  
    basically you are arguing that americans should be indifferent 
    to domestic separatist movements.  the same arguement was floated
    in 1860.  
    
    

    re. -1
    
    "Embrace"
    
    All I saw were people sitting there listening to what he had to say. 
    That does not constitute an embrace.  And many, many of those attendees
    who were interviewed said that they did not and do not agree with
    everything he says.
    

>    RE:  The park service...
>    
>    They have jurisdiciton over much if not all of the capitol.  The Mall,
>    the monuments etc. are all under park service supervision.  

No, the Capitol police have jurisdiction over the Capitol.

The Park Police have jurisdiction over the National Parks: the Mall and
the monuments.

The Washington, D.C., police have jurisdiction over most of the rest of
the capital city.

But there are about 10 different police forces in Washington, D.C.,
all with various niche responsibilities.

/john

    
    
    	But my question wasn't about the park service, it was "Why do we
    need an 'official' body count"?
    
    When you have crowds that size, you've overwhelmed the emergency system
    anyway. Just bring out all available resources.
    
    ed

    Someone said that the marchers had to pay a fee for attending
    this event.  Is this true?  How much was the admission price?
    I don't think I've ever heard of such a thing in previous marches
    and demonstrations in the past.
    
    If there was a fee, then getting an accurate head count should
    be a simple matter of counting the money or the ticket stubs or
    whatever, then, shouldn't it?
    
    Chris

    
    	Well, Doc, I guess that's one way of "explaining" it.
    
    	Mind you, regardless of the main intent of this note, it still
    	wasn't the best way of phrasing that observation.
    
    	I have to wonder if you would have made a parallel observation
    	had this been a "white people march".
    

    
      Well, the MMM was less silly than Woodstock, and much less silly
     than Woodstock II.
    
      bb

    
    re: fee
    
    There was no "fee". The participants were asked to pay $45 for the bus
    ride to and from D.C.
    

    
    I saw a box being passed around by the FOI for contributions.
    
    

        
 
   | So, America works best when populated with Judeo-Christians, and other
   | religious persuasions should be discouraged?  
    
    america works best when it leverages social (not governmental)
    institutions to solve its problem.  
    
   | You feel unable to 
   | connect with black people unless it's done through the church?
   
    to be quite honest, i don't know of any other institution (aside
    from the military) that i could use to make such connections.
    institutions that connect black with white folks are few, churches
    are one of them.  i'd like not to lose them.  it would exacerbate
    an already bad problem. 
    
  |  Not at all.  I'm saying that Americans should respect the religious
  |  choices of their fellow citizens, and I believe that for the most part
  |  they do.  And, in the absence of compelling evidence to the contrary,
  |  I reject your assumption that conversion to Islam is, by definition,
  |  involvement in a "domestic separatist movement".
    
  | "In your words"?  My words?  Where did I say that rejecting
  |  Christianity is a rejection of western civilization? 
    
  ||  Well, I venture to say that black youth today have found Christianity
  ||  unsuited to their needs, being a religion that is generally
  ||  associated with white Europe and the western world.  Blacks embraced
  ||  Christianity in a big way during the 20th Century, but they probably 
  ||  don't feel as though it's bought them much.
      
    in your own words you opined (correctly i believe) that rejection of  
    Christianity was motivated by its association with white Europe and
    the Western world.  by definition, the intent is to separate. 
      

    
    .198
    
    >america works best when it leverages social (not governmental)
    >institutions to solve its problem.  
    
    It still seems, however, that your position leaves little room for
    anything other than Judeo-Christian religious beliefs.
    
    >to be quite honest...
    
    You've been nothing if not honest, and I respect that.  
    Still, I disagree.
    
    >in your own words you opined (correctly i believe) that rejection of  
    >Christianity was motivated by its association with white Europe and
    >the Western world.
    
    Ummm, okay, I see where you got that, although that was perhaps not 
    written as clearly as it should have been.  I believe Christianity
    may have *failed* blacks for those reasons, but I think that converting
    blacks are rejecting Christianity (because they believe it has failed 
    them), *not* western civilization (although they *may* be; who am I to 
    speak for them?).
    
    >by definition, the intent is to separate.
    
    I guess this depends upon your definition of "separate".  Separate 
    religious beliefs does not necessarily mean physical separation.  It
    doesn't even have to present a problem, if both sides decide in advance
    not to have a problem with it.
    
    jc
      

    
    
    Remember, one of the tenets of the Nation of Islam (the sect headed by
    Farrakhan) says that white people are mutants as a result of an experiment 
    in Europe by a mad scientist called Yacob. 

    .200
    
    Is that right?
    
    Pretty sad.

>white people are mutants as a result of an experiment 
>    in Europe by a mad scientist called Yacob.

Well, then, this explains a lot.

    
    It explains Jerry Lewis' popularity in France at least.
    
    -b

    
    ...and Benny Hill, too!
    

    
    	I find Jerry Lewis somewhat amusing, in a Pee-Wee Herman sort of
    	way.
    

    
    LF, sounds like a walking paradox, promotes seperation, then 
    complains of it?!
    So what if there was only 400k, 600k, or 1? He had the exposure
    he wanted. Good luck to him. Hi-Hitler!
    
    
    
    B

    
    	sepAration
    
    
    	And I'd like you to thank me, actually.
    

    
    OK 
    	& thanks.

    
    ...and Mr. McGoering.
    

    Sounds like a McDonald's character.

    
    re. 200
    
    it also depends on the color of your eyes..if they are blue,
    than you fit.
    
    

>it also depends on the color of your eyes...
>if they are blue

sounds like an Aryan-reversal kinda thing.

    Aryan-reversal double twist in a pike position?

and don't forget the Speedo!!

    
    ya gotta admit listening to Farakahn, is almost entertaining in 
    a way. he goes on about the oddest things.
    
    "to some i am a nightmare, to others an answer to your 
    prayers"
    
    or 
    
    "i'm here to stay for awhile, i'm not going away"
    
                 
    
    
    
    
    

another yogi?

    Don't know about fee for the march, but on local FM station they
    indicated LF's organization was settion up a 900 phone # so
    attendees could call and get affirmation and reinforcement.
    
    Or, those who didn't attend can just call and listen to the
    teachings of LF.
    
    

    .218
    
    Scary

    Anyone descended from the slaves who arrived at
    Jamestown in *1555* will definitely want to drop a dime.

    ... or perhaps I should have said "arrant," though I fear the
    difference might prove too subtle.
    
    Signor Ragucci, I would have thought that one so quick to complain (and
    did you go so far as to object to HR?  NaughtyBoy!!) about what you
    felt to be ethnic slurs slung towards YOUR quadrant might be loath to
    sling them towards another's.
    
    And obtw, your lack of scholarship in the DoubleYou-DoubleYou-Eye-Eye
    area is a bit embarrassing (for you -- to me, it's hilarious).  I
    regret to be among the first to tell you that the popular salute to
    their F|hrer was _not_  "Hi-Hitler," as you so amusingly state -- it
    was the far more folksy "Hi-Ho-Hitler," or (primarily on State
    Occasions) even "Heighdy-Ho-Hitler."  He had been impressed with the
    Lone Ranger while a penniless painter in Vienna and always wanted to be
    saluted in a way reminiscent of the Masked Rider, as in "Hi-Yo-Silver." 
    I hope this little history lesson is of interest and use to you as you
    embark on your so-illustriously-begun career as a 'Boxer.
    
    Your Pal
    
    |-{:-)
    

    
    
    Gee, thanks, now I can sleep nights....
    
    Also, I gave up Sandbox Politics in grade school, & still think LF
    sounds like Hitler.
    
    

    
    Snappy title there, Ragu.
    

    Do we gots a new sobriquet here in the making?  A "nom de 'Box," a
    friendly diminutive?  Such are usually received from others, rather
    than being chosen by oneself FOR oneself.  Like "Dork" ferinstance.
    
    Now who WUZ that?
    

    .222
    
    After some of your replies in other notes, I thought you were still in
    grade school.

    
    .224,
    
    As I said, he's a very saucy lad.
    

    He's off his noodle.

    
    ...and you're off your chump!
    

    Wasa chump? That some kinda racest slur.. ? :*)

    If you mean by that utilization of an obscure colloquialism that my
    sanity isn't up to scratch, or indeed to deny the semi-existence of my
    little chum Eric The 'alf Bee, then perhaps you have a valid point.

    
    A-singing...
    

    abc, 123, Eric the half a bee

    
    a b c d e f g, Eric the half-a-bee...
    

    and you think I've lost it !

    
    Is this a wretched demi-bee,
    Half asleep upon my knee?
    Some freak from a menagerie?
    
    NO!  It's Erik the half-a-bee...
    

You Anglo-centrics are an odd bunch, aren't you?

Remind me a bit of the ex-.

    One Sunday afternoon by me
    I LOVE HIM, carnally
    Semi-Carnally

    Cyril Connolly?

    Fiddle de dum, fiddle dee dee, Eric the half-a-bee
    Ho ho ho, tee hee hee, Eric the half-a-bee

>  Read MLK's "Letter from the Birmingham Jail".

 I promised OLIVER_B I'd reread this, and I think an excerpt or
 two is worth posting.  

 "I am in Birmingham because injustice is here.  Just as the
  prophets of the eight century B.C. left their villages and
  carried their 'thus saith the Lord' far beyond the boundaries
  of their hometowns, and just as the Apostle Paul left his
  village of Tarsus and carried the gospel of Jesus Christ to
  the far corners of the Greco-Roman world, so am I compelled
  to carry the gospel of freedom beyond my hometown.  Like Paul,
  I must respond to the Macedonian call for aid".

  "One has not only a legal but moral responsibility to obey
  just laws.  Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to 
  disobey unjust laws.  I would agree with St. Augistine that
  'an unjust law is no law at all'."

  "Now, what is the difference between the two?  How does one
   determine whether a law is just or unjust?  A just law is a 
   man-made code that squares with the moral law or the law of
   God.  An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the
   moral law.  To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas: an
   unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal law
   and natural law."

  "One day the South will know that when these disinherited 
   children of God sat down at lunch counters, they were standing
   up for what is best in the American dream and for the most
   sacred values in our Judeo-Christian heritage, thereby bringing
   our nation back to those great wells of democracy which were 
   dug deep by the founding fathers in their formulation of the
   Constitution and the Declaration of Independence."

    
    An organization dis a computer analysis of the march attendance and
    came up with 870,000 people.
    
    
    Mike 

    RE: A fee for attending......
    
    There was the bus fare of $45.00, sounds reasonable.  There was no fee
    for attending per se.  LF did encourage the attendees to dig into their
    pockets, grab all the money they had and wave it in the air as a sign
    of black economic power.  He also encouraged them to patronize black
    owned businesses and shun the bloodsuckers that have no vested interest
    in the community.  There was also an encouragement to take the same
    money being waved about and give up as a donation to "the organizers"
    to help defray the expense of putting on the rally, estimated at $3M. 
    No fee, but donations were gladly accepted. 
    
    Brian

      I asked if Farakhan *changed*.
    
      There was a man named John Newton who's occupation was a ship
      captain whose 'freight' was black people he brought from Africa
      to America to sell as slaves.
    
      This man later became a 'slave of the slaves' and becamse a
      Christian.
    
      He wrote the song Amazing Grace.  The words are, imo, inspired by
      God Himself.
    
      I understand the point to heed who the messenger is.  I only ask
      if its possible that the heart of this messenger changed.  If so,
      I would perhaps heed the message with more significance.
    
      After all, John Newton was given a message for me and millions
      others. 
    
    						Tony

    re: .203
    
    TOO FUNNY!!!	
    
    					Tony

    
    I am confused by all of this.  What does LF want?? He comments on all
    the bloodsuckers who don't contribute to the community and that folks
    should boycott them. Well, many of these small shops have been around
    longer than LF has. What does he expect these folks to do??
    
    I notice that they don't target successful black folks to try to
    boycott them, and there are many who have left their communities and
    never looked back.
    
    When will enough be enough???

    
    LF is no better than Mark Furhman, worse in a way because he flouts
    his racism with fervor.

BrokeParts!  I reread it too.  Here is what MLK had to say about the 
white Christian leadership:

"I have been so greatly disappointed with the white church and its 
leadership...I came to Birmingham with the hope that the white religious
leadership of this community would see the justice of our cause and,
with deep moral concern, would serve as the channel through which our
just grievances could reach the power structure.  I had hoped that each
of you would understand.  But again I have been disappointed.

I have heard numerous southern religious leaders admonish their worshippers
to comply with the desegregation decision because it is the law, but I have
longed to hear white ministers declare: "Follow this decree because 
integration is morally right and because the Negro is your brother."  In
the midst of blatant injustices inflicted on the Negro, I have watched
white churchmen stand on the sideline and mouth pious irrelevancies and
sanctimonious trivialities.  In the midst of a mighty struggle to rid our
nation of racial and economic injustice, I have heard many ministers say:
"Those are social issues, with which the gospel has no real concern."  And
I have watched many churches commit themselves to a completely other-
worldly religion which makes a strange, un-Biblical distinction between
body and soul, between the sacred and the secular."

    
     
     sure MLK was disappointed by local clergy, but who won the day
     and why?  if you look at my (admittedly selective) quotes you still
     have to admit the MLK's strategy was appeal to a common set of
     values based on the judeo-christian culture and the founding fathers.
     i think that re-enforces my point that a common set of values
     based on religious and historical origins are an advantage when
     trying to come to reconcillation.  
    
     in rereading the notes i forgot that black activism at one
     time truely appreciated jefferson despite his willingness to 
     subordinate the issue of slavery to that of revolution.  the
     writings notably omitted the condemning of contemporary white folks
     for simply being the ancestors of the same race as slave owners.
                                

    The "letter from a Birmingham Jail" had been posted in here once upon a
    time. Anybody know where it is? (I thought Covert posted it.)

Letter from Birmingham Jail (in part), written 16 April 1963.

My Dear Fellow Clergymen:

While confined here in the Birmingham City Jail, I came across your recent
statement calling my present activities "unwise and untimely."  Seldom do I
pause to answer criticism of my work and ideas.  If I sought to answer all the
criticisms that cross my desk, my secretaries would have little time for
anything other than such correspondence in the course of the day, and I would
have no time for constructive work.  But since I feel that you are men of
genuine goodwill and that your criticisms are sincerely set forth, I want to
try to answer your statement in what I hope will be patient and reasonable
terms.

I think I should indicate why I am here in Birmingham, since you have been
influenced by the view which argues against "outsiders coming in."  I have the
honor of serving as president of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference,
an organization operating in every Southern state, with headquarters in Atlanta,
Georgia.  We have some eighty-five affiliate organizations across the South, and
one of them is the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights.  Frequently, we
share staff, educational, and financial resources with our affiliates.  Several
months ago the affiliate here in Birmingham asked us to be on call to engage in
a nonviolent direct-action program if such were deemed necessary.  We readily
consented, and when the hour came we lived up to our promise.  So I, along with
several members of my staff, am here because I was invited here.  I am here
because I have organizational ties here.

But more basically, I am in Birmingham because injustice exists here.  Just as
the prophets of the 8th century B.C. left their villages and carried their "thus
saith the Lord" far afield, and just as the apostle Paul left his village of
Tarsus and carried the gospel of Jesus Christ to the far corners of the Greco-
Roman world, so am I compelled to carry the gospel of freedom beyond my own
hometown.  Like Paul, I must constantly respond to the Macedonian call for aid.

Moreover, I am cognizant of the interrelatedness of all communities and states.
I cannot sit idly by in Atlanta and not be concerned about what happens in
Birmingham.  Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.  We are
caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of
destiny.  Whatever affects one affects all indirectly.  Never again can we
afford to live with the narrow, provincial "outside agitator" idea.  Anyone who
lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere
within its bounds.

You deplore the demonstrations taking place in Birmingham.  But your statement,
I am sorry to say, fails to express a similar concern for the conditions that
brought about the demonstrations.  I am sure that none of you would want to
rest content with the superficial kind of social analysis that deals merely
with effects and does not grapple with underlying causes.  It is unfortunate
that demonstrations are taking place in Birmingham, but it is even more
unfortunate that the city's white power structure left the Negro community
with no alternative. ...

You may well ask, "Why direct action? Why sit-ins, marches, etc.?  Isn't
negotiation a better path?"  You are quite right in calling for negotiation.
Indeed, this is the very purpose of direct action.  Nonviolent direct action
seeks to foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused
to negotiate is forced to confront the issue.  It seeks so to dramatize the
issue that it can no longer be ignored.  My citing the creation of tension as
part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking.  But I
readily acknowledge that I am not afraid of the word "tension."  I have
earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive,
nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth.  Just as Socrates felt that
it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could
shake off the bondage of myths and half-truths and rise to the realm of
creative analysis and objective appraisal, so must we see the need for
nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men
rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of
understanding and brotherhood.

The purpose of our direct-action program is to create a situation so crisis-
packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation.  I therefore concur
with you in your call for negotiation.  Too long has our beloved Southland been
bogged down in a tragic effort to live in monologue rather then dialogue. ...

We have waited for more than 340 years for our constitutional and God-given
rights.  The nations of Asia and Africa are moving with jetlike speed toward
gaining political independence, but we still creep at horse-and-buggy pace
toward gaining a cup of coffee at a lunch counter.  Perhaps it is easy for
those who have never felt the stinging darts of segregation to say "Wait."  But
when you have seen vicious mobs lynch your mothers and fathers at will and
drown your sisters and brothers at whim; when you have seen hate-filled
policemen curse, kick, and even kill your black brothers and sisters with
impunity; when you see the vast majority of your 20 million Negro brothers
smothering in an air-tight cage of poverty in the midst of an affluent society;
when you suddenly find your tongue twisted as you seek to explain to your six-
year-old daughter why she can't go to the public amusement park that has just
been advertised on television, and see tears welling up when she is told that
Funtown is closed to colored children, and see ominous clouds of inferiority
beginning to form in her little mental sky, and see her beginning to distort
her personality by unconsciously developing a bitterness toward white people;
when you have to concoct an answer for a five-year-old son asking, "Daddy, why
do white people treat colored people so mean?"; when you take a cross-country
drive and find it necessary to sleep night after night in the uncomfortable
corners of your automobile because no motel will accept you; when you are
humiliated day in and day out by nagging signs reading "white" and "colored";
when your first name becomes "nigger," your middle name becomes "boy" (however
old you are), and your last name becomes "John," and your wife and mother are
never given the respected title "Mrs."; when you are harried by day and haunted
by night by the fact that you are a Negro, never quite knowing what to expect
next, and are plagued with inner fears and outer resentments; when you are
forever fighting a degenerating sense of "nobodiness" -- then you will
understand why we find it difficult to wait.  There comes a time when the cup
of endurance runs over, and men are no longer willing to be plunged into an
abyss of injustice where they experience the bleakness of corroding despair.
I hope, sirs, you can understand our legitimate and unavoidable impatience.

You express a great deal of anxiety over our willingness to break laws.  This
is certainly a legitimate concern.  Since we so diligently urge people to obey
the Supreme Court's decision of 1954 outlawing segregation in the public
schools, at first glance it may seem rather paradoxical for us consciously to
break laws.  One may well ask, "How can you advocate breaking some laws and
obeying others?"  The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws:
just and unjust.  I agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at
all." ...

Let us consider some of the ways in which a law can be unjust.  A law is unjust,
for example, if the majority group compels a minority group to obey the statute
but does not make it binding on itself.  By the same token, a law in all
probability is just if the majority is itself willing to obey it.  Also, a law
is unjust if it is inflicted on a minority that, as a result of being denied
the right to vote, had no part in enacting or devising the law.  Who can say
that the legislature of Alabama which set up that state's segregation laws was
democratically elected?  Throughout Alabama all sorts of devious methods are
used to prevent Negroes from becoming registered voters, and there are some
counties in which, even though Negroes constitute a majority of the population,
not a single Negro is registered.  Can any law enacted under such circumstances
be considered democratically structured?

Sometimes a law is just on its face and unjust in its application.  For
instance, I have been arrested on a charge of parading without a permit.  Now
there is nothing wrong in having an ordinance which requires a permit for a
parade.  But such an ordinance becomes unjust when it is used to maintain
segregation and to deny citizens the First Amendment privilege of peaceful
assembly and protest.

I hope you are able to see the distinction I am trying to point out.  In no
sense do I advocate evading the law, as would the rabid segregationist.  That
would lead to anarchy.  One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly,
lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty.  I submit that an
individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust and who
willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience
of the community over its injustice is in reality expressing the highest respect
for law. ...

I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers.
First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely
disappointed with the white moderate.  I have almost reached the regrettable
conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom
is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white
moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative
peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence
of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I
cannot agree with your methods"; who paternalistically believes he can set the
timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and
who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."
Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute
misunderstanding from people of ill will.  Lukewarm acceptance is much more
bewildering than outright rejection.

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist
for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose
they block social progress.  I had hoped that the white moderate would
understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the
transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively
accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all
men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality.  Actually, we who
engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension.  We merely
bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive.  We bring it out 
in the open where it can be seen and dealt with.  Like a boil that can never be
cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its pus-flowing
ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed,
with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and
the air of national opinion before it can be cured. ...

You speak of our activity in Birmingham as extreme.  At first I was rather
disappointed that fellow clergymen would see my nonviolent efforts as those of
an extremist.  I began thinking about the fact that I stand in the middle of
two opposing forces in the Negro community.  One is a force of complacency made
up of Negroes who, as a result of long years of oppression, are so completely
drained of self-respect and a sense of "somebodiness" that they have adjusted to
segregation, and of a few middle-class Negroes who, because of a degree of
academic and economic security and because in some ways they profit by
segregation, have unconsciously become insensitive to the problems of the
masses.  The other force is one of bitterness and hatred, and it comes
perilously close to advocating violence.  It is expressed in the various black
nationalist groups that are springing up across the nation, the largest and
best-known being Elijah Muhammed's Muslim movement.  Nourished by the Negro's
frustration over the continued existence of racial discrimination, this movement
is made up of people who have lost faith in America, who have absolutely
repudiated Christianity, and who have concluded that the white man is an
incorrigible "devil."

I have tried to stand between these two forces, saying that we need emulate
neither the "do-nothingism" of the complacent nor the hatred of the black
nationalist.  For there is the more excellent way of love and nonviolent
protest.  I am grateful to God that, through the influence of the Negro church,
the way of nonviolence became an integral part of our struggle.

If this philosophy had not emerged, by now many streets of the South would, I
am convinced, be flowing with blood.  And I am further convinced that if our
white brothers dismiss as "rabble-rousers" and "outside agitators" those of us
who employ nonviolent direct action and if they refuse to support our nonviolent
efforts, millions of Negroes will, out of frustration and despair, seek solace
and security in black nationalist ideologies -- a development that would
inevitably lead to a frightening racial nightmare. ...

Let me take note of my other major disappointment.  Though there are some
notable exceptions, I have also been disappointed with the white church and its
leadership.  I do not say this as one of those negative critics who can always
find something wrong with the church.  I say this as a minister of the gospel,
who loves the church; who was nurtured in its bosom; who has been sustained by
its spiritual blessings and who will remain true to it as long as the cord of
life shall lengthen.

When I was suddenly catapulted into the leadership of the bus protest in
Montgomery, Alabama, a few years ago, I felt we would be supported by the white
church.  I felt that the white ministers, priests, and rabbis of the South would
be among our strongest allies.  Instead, some have been outright opponents,
refusing to understand the freedom movement and misrepresenting its leaders; all
too many others have been more cautious than courageous and have remained silent
and secure behind stained-glass windows.

In spite of my shattered dreams I came to Birmingham with the hope that the
white religious leadership of this community would see the justice of our cause
and with deep moral concern would serve as the channel through which our just
grievances could reach the power structure.  But again I have been disappointed.

I have heard numerous Southern religious leaders admonish their worshipers to
comply with a desegregation decision because it is the *law*, but I have longed
to hear white ministers declare, "Follow this decree because integration is
morally *right* and because the Negro is your brother."  In the midst of blatant
injustices inflicted upon the Negro I have watched white churchmen stand on the
sideline and mouth pious irrelevancies and sanctimonious trivialities.  In the
midst of a mighty struggle to rid our nation of racial and economic injustice I
have heard many ministers say, "Those are social issues with which the gospel
has no real concern," and I have watched many churches commit themselves to a
completely otherworldly religion which makes a strange, unbiblical distinction
between body and soul, between the sacred and the secular.

We are moving toward the close of the twentieth century with a religious
community largely adjusted to the status quo -- a taillight behind other
community agencies rather than a headlight leading men to higher levels of
justice. ...

But the judgment of God is upon the church as never before.  If today's church
does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its
authenticity, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant
social club with no meaning for the twentieth century.  Every day I meet young
people whose disappointment with the church has turned into outright disgust.

Perhaps I have once again been too optimistic.  Is organized religion too
inextricably bound to the status quo to save our nation and the world?  Perhaps
I must turn my faith to the inner spiritual church, as the true ecclesia and the
hope of the world.  But again I am thankful to God that some noble souls from
the ranks of organized religion have broken loose from the paralyzing chains of
conformity and joined us as active partners in the struggle for freedom.  They
have left their secure congregations and walked the streets of Albany, Georgia,
with us.  They have gone down the highways of the South on torturous rides for
freedom.  Yes, they have gone to jail with us.  Some have been kicked out of
their churches, have lost the support of their bishops and fellow ministers.
But they have acted in the faith that right defeated is stronger than evil
triumphant.  Their witness has been the spiritual salt that has preserved the
true meaning of the gospel in these troubled times.  They have carved a tunnel
of hope through the dark mountain of disappointment.

I hope the church as a whole will meed the challenge of this decisive hour.  But
even if the church does not come to the aid of justice, I have no despair about
the future.  I have no fear about the outcome of our struggle in Birmingham,
even if our motives are at present misunderstood.  We will reach the goal of
freedom in Birmingham and all over the nation, because the goal of America is
freedom. ...

Before closing I feel impelled to mention one other point in your statement that
has troubled me profoundly.  You warmly commended the Birmingham police force
for keeping "order" and "preventing violence."  I doubt that you would have so
warmly commended the police force if you had seen its angry dogs sinking their
teeth into six unarmed, nonviolent Negroes.  I doubt that you would so quickly
commend the policemen if you were to observe their ugly and inhuman treatment of
Negroes here in the City Jail; if you were to watch them push and curse old
Negro women and young Negro girls; if you were to see them slap and kick old
Negro men and young boys; if you were to observe them, as they did on two
occasions, refuse to give us food because we wanted to sing our grace together.
I cannot join you in your praise of the Birmingham Police Department.

It is true that the police have exercised discipline in handling the
demonstrators.  In this sense they have conducted themselves rather
"nonviolently" in public.  But for what purpose?  To preserve the evil system
of segregation.  Over the past few years I have consistently preached that
nonviolence demands that the means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek.
I have tried to make clear that it is wrong to use immoral means to attain
moral ends.  But now I must affirm that it is just as wrong, or perhaps even
more so, to use moral means to preserve immoral ends.  Perhaps Mr. Connor and
his policemen have been rather nonviolent in public, as was Chief Pritchert in
Albany, Georgia, but they have used the moral means of nonviolence to maintain
the immoral end of racial injustice.  As T. S. Eliot has said, there is no
greater treason than to do the right deed for the wrong reason.

I wish you had commended the Negro sit-inners and demonstrators of Birmingham
for their sublime courage, their willingness to suffer and their amazing
discipline in the midst of great provocation.  One day the South will recognize
its real heroes. ... One day the South will know that when these disinherited
children of God sat down at lunch counters they were in reality standing up for
what is best in the American dream and for the most sacred values in our Judeo-
Christian heritage, thereby bringing our nation back to those great wells of
democracy which were dug deep by the founding fathers in their formulation of
the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.

.247

>if you look at my (admittedly selective) quotes you still
>     have to admit the MLK's strategy was appeal to a common set of
>     values based on the judeo-christian culture and the founding fathers.

Yes, it was.   But MLK's profound dissatisfaction came not from the theory
of those judeo-christian beliefs but from the lack of will on the part of 
christian leadership to put them into practice.

Come to think of it, that's what turned me off to organized religion.
I was very young at the time, but I remember thinking: Whew. There's 
a whole lot of lip service going on.  


  

    >There's a whole lot of lip service going on.
    
    Always. In every religion (IMO). The ones that seem to be worst about
    it are the ones who insist on a hard and fast requirement of being at
    church each sunday. They seem to be the ones that forget what is said
    in that 45 minutes faster than the rest...

    
    
    
    .251 Church is not a museum of Saints.
    	 Its more like a hospital you go to for treatment.
    
    	 Thats how I (a non-believer) see it.

    
  |  Yes, it was.   But MLK's profound dissatisfaction came not from the theory
  |  of those judeo-christian beliefs but from the lack of will on the part of
  |  christian leadership to put them into practice.
    
  moral leadership always comes from a minority.
        
  when i was young, a clergyman in our small new england harbor town
  worked passionately to support MLK, going down to selma, birmingham
  etc.  he was kicked out of his own church by lay people who objected
  to his participation.  this was my first experience with northern racism
  and was a stark contrast to what i was to experience a few years later
  in central virginia.
        
    
  |  Come to think of it, that's what turned me off to organized religion.
  |  I was very young at the time, but I remember thinking: Whew. There's
  |  a whole lot of lip service going on.
      
    i felt the same way you did for about 20 years.  history drove me
    from organized religion, and ironically, back to it. 
    

    
    
         Louis Farrakhan,.....like any demagogue, will rise to power,
         persuassion, notoriety,...whatever,........because they fill
         a void of leadership, direction,...etc. The "handfull" of
         Black folks that I speak with all agree that the only person
         among influential Blacks in America that could have called for
         such a march/rally  and be successful,.....is Farrakhan.
    
         I don't like sayin' this,....I really don't but organizations
         like the N.A,A.C.P. and Urban League are viewed as anachronisms.
         They're leadership is old and comprised of middle and upper middle
         class folks. Ask a youngster on the strret about the history of
         these civil rights organizations and you'll get a blank look.
    
         I'll tell you this,.....and only time will tell,...if Farrakhan
         can begin to make Black youths end their destructive ways and
         "pick up" books, paper and pencils instead of guns, drugs and
         violence,.........who knows what's next.
    
    
         Ed

> I don't like sayin' this,....I really don't but organizations
>         like the N.A,A.C.P. and Urban League are viewed as anachronisms

I get that sense too.  The NAACP has serious leadership problems.
Even Jesse Jackson seems to be on the outside looking in.

Farrakhan appeals because he offer no apologies.

        
    > I'll tell you this,.....and only time will tell,...if Farrakhan
    > can begin to make Black youths end their destructive ways and
    > "pick up" books, paper and pencils instead of guns, drugs and
    > violence,.........who knows what's next.

    Indeed! Which is why I think it's such a crock for people to
    be complaining about the fact that this is being done under
    the Islamic banner. I can't think of a single person in this
    country who would not be better off if this were to happen.

    I'm not willing to dismiss Farrakhan as a demagogue. As I
    mentioned further back in this string, I think a lot of people
    insist on hearing a hateful message that isn't there. He may
    not be an easy pill to swallow, but he has a way about him
    that I personally find, dare I say it, appealing.

    -b

    
    <---- nutty fluffer!
    

    
    | I'm not willing to dismiss Farrakhan as a demagogue.
    
    def. demagogue - a panderer to popular prejudices.  
    

    >I'm not willing to dismiss Farrakhan as a demagogue. As I
    
     Well, he _is_ a demagogue. But that isn't to say he's without his
    virtues.
    
    >I think a lot of people insist on hearing a hateful message that 
    >isn't there. 
    
     Oh, I'm not convinced there isn't hatred in the message, but the key
    point for me is that it isn't the whole message, that parts of the
    message are sensible and good, and that in the absence of any better
    alternatives Farrakhan's message will be heard.

    
    
         demagogue 1: a leader championing the cause of the common
                      people in ancient times. 2: a leader that makes
                      use of popular prejudices and false claims and
                      promises in order to gain power.
    
    
    
        Ed

    	Hey, the PLO is making peace with Israel.  
    
    	Why not LF with his neighborhood Jews?  I don't see him making 
    	that effort today, but imagine if that happened?

BrokeParts!  I hereby recant the colon blow comment.

It seems you are in sync with MLK's opinion about E. Muhammad's followers:

"Nourished by the Negro's frustration over the continued existence of 
racial discrimination, this movement [Elijah Muhammad's Muslim movement] 
is made up of people who have lost faith in America, who have absolutely
repudiated Christianity, and who have concluded that the white man is an
incorrigible "devil."

    
    
    
          A dialogue coudn't hurt. Farrakhan HAS SOME problems. I heard
          him refer to Jews as "bloodsuckers",.....he attached the same
          label to Koreans and some Arabs. I read further on and he said,
          " That Jewish, Korean and Arab merchants have businesses in
          the heart of the Balck community and yet a Black person isn't
          given a job at these establishments,....I call that bloodsucking
          a community dry".
    
    
          Ed

    But you can't retract a colon blow.

>I'M NOT TRYING TO DEFEND MINISTER FARRAKHAN.

I know, I know!  I must learn more about him myself.  That was
an MLK quote from 30 years ago.   

    
    
       Is a "colon blow" equivalent to a kick in the balls?
    
    
       Ed

Good colon blows on the market as we speak:
bran, prune juice, bran, prune juice.

Colon blows come from the inside, not the outside.

    
    
        I was thinking "blow" as in "punch". If someone punches you in
        your colon area,.....you can't retract that either.
    
    
    
        Ed

>If someone punches you in
>        your colon area,.....you can't retract that either.

If someone punched me there, he'd be retracting _something_ before long.

       re .269:
       
       Sexist swine.

    Ed,
    
    The point you made about no other black leader LEADING zeros right
    in on Farrakahn's appeal.  I do think he's pointing out some areas
    where the old hopes/dreams failed, i.e. big brother (government)
    would take care of everyone, thus taking the idea of incentives
    away from some folks.  Unfortunately, some of the ideas that failed
    were perpetuated by the same civil rights workers who fought so
    hard at the beginning of the movement.  
    
    I agree with the others who say that if LF's message about taking
    reponsibility and becoming independent encourages youths coming up
    to do so then he has accomplished an enormous task for the AA
    citizens.  If his message has impact on the drugs, gangs, killings;
    again an enormous plus for the AA community.
    
    I sincerely hope though, these same youths do NOT take to heart his
    attitudes displayed toward other minorities & women etc.  He's got
    to be consistent with his message, that slip about bloodsuckers
    before the march and a few comments made since could undo all the
    positive messages that got delivered on Monday.
    
    I watched Jesse Jackson on Letterman last night; I enjoyed him
    immensely because he was relaxed and actually very funny.  He traded
    quips with Dave and gave as good as he got.  Letterman asked JJ
    about running in the presidential race again; JJ wouldn't say, but
    he alluded to the fact that he might run.......but I'm not sure that
    Jackson's time hasn't passed him by in that arena.
    
    
                                
    

re: .270

...when in Rome...

    Hang on to yer wallet!

    
    <--- I think we've had *just* about enough of your racial slurs,
         you goombah.
    

    
    
    !Joan said the G-word!!! !Joan said the G-word!!! !Joan said the G-word!!!

he'll never loin...

From:	US2RMC::"Forum@focusufo.net" "MAIL-11 Daemon" 20-OCT-1995 09:23:54.93
To:	FocusUFO recipients <forum@focusufo.net>
CC:	
Subj:	Trying to authenticate article

On Thu, 19 Oct 95 Pamela S.Klemm wrote:
> The Farrakhan article was indeed in the 9/17 Post - I read it myself.  
> It was a small article, and I believe it was in the Style section.


I have also found an article with a reference to his vision.  It was in a
file I download from Compuserve...

INTERVIEW WITH LOUIS FARRAKHAN
U.S.NEWS & WORLD REPORT
October 1, 1995

Farrakhan on the Million-Man March -- a gathering and a march:
This is the excerpt which details the vision

Farrakhan on the origins of the idea for the Million-Man March:

"Well, it begins before that in a vision that I had 10 years ago
September. And in this vision I was in Mexico, and I was taken aboard one
of the little UFOs to a mother wheel. And on that wheel I heard the voice
of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. And he told me at that time that Ronald
Reagan was planning a war, that he had met with the Joint Chiefs of
Staff. He didn't tell me where the war would be, who the war would be
against, but I was to hold a press conference and announce Reagan's plans
and to tell the people that I got it from Elijah Muhammad at the wheel.
Well, the world believes of course that Elijah Muhammad is dead and the
UFOs, or what they call flying saucers, are, to some, fantasy, but to the
government of the United States it's very, very, very real."

Laters
Adam

Follower of the Nation

Is Louis from Exeter, New Hampshire?

    No wonder he's whacked, that dude's possessed!

re:wherethehellis Brandon?

Why Doc, how kind of you to think of me.

Yes, "hell" is quite an accurate description of where I've been. Think of it
as an extended Friday 13th. And of course, what better activity after such a
hellish week than to return to the cauldron that is the 'box for more (sh/w)it
and (?/w)isdom. But per the topic, as you are wont to point out, I did not
attend. I had nothing to atone for. I've always been unified with those who
have been unified with me. 

One thing though: I thought it was a refreshing change to see black people on
the media that were peaceful, calm, articulate, and not in handcuffs. A great
many black people. I'd have liked to have heard the speakers (but it was hard
to get to a T.V. while in hell).

I support the effort for individual and group advancement as I have actively
for many years, working with organizations like the Art of Black Dance and
Music, SummerThing (in the days when such was funded) and other community
projects. I hope that a balanced perspective is achieved by all who have
experienced the event in some way. The media, to my mind, focused too
one-sidedly on the 'personal responsibility' angle: it remains to be seen
whether individual efforts are enough to overcome institutional bias.

To a degree I find it ironically amusing that such furor has risen over
various statements Farrakhan has made when the air is full (once again) of
assertions regarding genetics and welfare-mentality (while blissfully
ignoring any other sources of exacerbation). I've never held to the doctrine
of the Nation of Islam, nor do I accept Farrakhan's dogma in total.
But it seems to me the thrust of his message was not to declare war on white
America, but to remind and reinforce in the participants a sense of self
and empowerment.

I am grounded in individuality and the quality that brings to any group
effort. Consciousness-raising is always positive.

    
    
    Is Farakhan's speach from the MMM posted in this note somewhere?
    
    -D

One other thought. So often it is questioned whether an initiative can be
independently undertaken and flawlessly executed by black men.

I think this is one example that demonstrates that ability.

    Thanks Brandon, I too was hoping you would check in and share your
    perspective.  
    
    Brian

    
    brandon,
    
    i posted the following question early in this string of notes.
    do you have an opinion? 
    
    thx,
    
    bob
    
    | mark pointed out that there are few afro-americans that
    | participate in soapbox.  does anyone want to venture an opinion why?
    
     

    >| mark pointed out that there are few afro-americans that
    >| participate in soapbox.  does anyone want to venture an opinion why?
    
    I don't know. The BOX is so full of love, forgiveness, understanding
    and brotherhood. Why would anyone want to stay away?

>and brotherhood.

sexist swine.

    
  |  I don't know. The BOX is so full of love, forgiveness, understanding
  |  and brotherhood. Why would anyone want to stay away?
          
  
    i know it's an awkward and loaded question, but i'd like to hear
    people's opinion.
    

  
>>    i know it's an awkward and loaded question, but i'd like to hear
>>    people's opinion.

    but why in the MMM topic?
    

       Sexists whine.

    re: .289
    
    
    She asked innocently....

    
    
    i've got to lighten up.  i almost took di's question at face value.
    

    
    
    I was impressed with the march, but not with the organizer.  It's
    impressive to have this many people in one place and have it peaceful.
    For that, the people deserve a lot of credit.  I just wish that someone
    organized the thing that wasn't a racist and it should have been all
    inclusive.
    
    
    Mike

re:.284

What? No attacks? Where am I? ;-}

re:.285

I can't say. There have been some throughout the years who have valiantly
persevered despite the volume of vitriol and 'hard questions' lobbed their way
from the general populace.

It might be that some have a higher priority in maintaining their employment and
'good relations' with those who might affect their future. It might be that some
don't see any value in confronting hardened opinions. 

I've always had a spark of 'devil-may-care' (self-destruction?) I guess, so
here I am. When I was young(er) I thought this mode of communication was, as
they say now-a-days, 'phat'.

BTW, lest I create a perception that this environment was nothing but hostile
let me dispel the notion and say that there are a significant number of folks
who are not -er- dismissive.

We don't group-hug here, but it's not a re-enactment of Manassas either.

(Besides I found a lot of people aren't what they seem in notes. It took a 'box
party for me to see that).

    
    
    I guess Beeler wasn't there then. :')

re:.296 (Mike)

You kidding?

He was the first one to shock the _ out of me.

    
    
  |  I can't say. There have been some throughout the years who have
  |  valiantly persevered despite the volume of vitriol and 'hard questions' lobbed
  |  their way from the general populace.
    
    my opinion is that interracial discourse is hard work.  it seems that
    either racial discussions veer too much on the side of politeness where
    frank opinions are rarely expressed (this is what we see in the
    integrated work environments) or it is too one sided given the
    the demographics and access to forums like these.  this is too
    bad since electronic forums provide a "safe" place where people
    of diverse backgrounds can exchange thoughts.  
         

    
    if i was aa i would think i would find it frustrating to note
    in the box.  come to think of it, i find it frustrating regardless.
    

.299

>Each educated AA have a part in playing for the upliftment

Perhaps if you didn't use 'AA' you'd find verb agreement an
easier task.  /hth

    
    	Verb conjugation isn't the easiest thing in the world with some-
    	one for whom English is a second language.
    	

Still, the "AA" does not help matters. (IMO)

       > Verb conjugation isn't the easiest thing in the world with
       > someone for whom English is a second language.        ^^^^
       
       How about choosing the right preposition for someone for whom
       English is, nominally, a mother tongue?

    
    	Rather than trying to construct a sentence in French to make it
    	look like I actually remember some of it, I'll instead revert to
    
    
    
    	Oh yeah?!?!
    

If you W can't get along, well, we'll be in deep doo-doo.

re:.298 

>my opinion is that interracial discourse is hard work.

Depends. I was fortunate enough to have two out of three positive experiences
in this company for instance, wrt the groups I've worked in...the last being
my present group which I've been with for 10 years.

If people around you are honest, fun-loving, committed individuals with a sense
of humor, discourse is that much easier.

>it seems that either racial discussions veer too much on the side of politeness
>where frank opinions are rarely expressed (this is what we see in the
>integrated work environments)

On the other hand I can relate a very intense UDD (Understanding Dynamics of
Difference) seminar I attended that pulled some very profound emotions out of
everone there. I think many were permanently changed by that experience on some
level.

>this is too bad since electronic forums provide a "safe" place where people
>of diverse backgrounds can exchange thoughts.

I'm glad you enclosed "safe" in quotes.  

 

re: "I just wish that someone organized the thing that wasn't a racist
and it should have been all inclusive."

Yes, wouldn't it be wonderful for both those who saw the good in the
march *and* those who would like to send a loud and clear message to F
that we don't need or want his rhetoric, to somehow plant a crowd of
10,000,000 of all colors, somewhere, to celebrate a new national
desire to live and grow together in peace.

I don't know how it'd ever get organized, but it'd be even better than
Woodstock (the real one).

Pete

Some marches of that nature were already held (albeit without the numbers.
Unlike some, that isn't important to me).

    
    
    The numbers shouldn't be inportant (IMO).  If these start on a regular
    basis, the message will get out.
    
    
    Mike

    
    re.274 & .275 Joan needs to find her "G" spot. (if she has one)
    maybe noter .275 can help out.
    
    
    
    

    
    And now I have a nearly overwhelming urge to use the "I" word.
    
    -b

    
    Tell ya what Ragu...I'm desperately in need of a *big*, *strong*,
    *handsome* and, above all, *intelligent* man to really help me get
    in touch with my secret yearnings; a master in the erotic arts who
    will not only *find* my G-spot, but utilize to full advantage.
    
    Do you know any men like that?
    

The man with the spaghetti-sauce name looks like he wants to get fired.

    
    PLEASE!  No clues from the audience!!
    

Don't do this Cyberian...

We're trying to promote understanding here...:-)

    
    oh please please please don't spoil my fun...!!!
    
    ;^)
    

       !joan's having yet another hot flash.

    
    re. 315 No , I am not.  I get it you can dish it out, ethnic 
    slurs, Jokes, but if some one retaliates, watch out.
    
    sorry...someone else starts it. 
    And by the way "RAGU" means sauce in Italian. What does yours mean?
    

       re .320:
       
       Un tal giocco, credemi, e meglio non giocarlo.
       
       Pppppttthhhp.
       
       Ciao,
       
       --Signor T.

    
    For clues, the quest ongoes.
    

i love electronic gender bending!  

    C.C.cCcccan't we all just get along?

no.  especially when a M mistakes another M for a
W, and resorts to insulting the M with sexist swine-like
epithets.  shocking.

    
    
    Okay... what's the list up to now??
    
    n-word
    p-word
    g-word
    W-word
    M-word
    
    Any more?
    

    
    I promise not to take Ragu before Personell for sexually harrassing me.
    
    I'm just not as synsytyve as other women.
    
    ;^)
    

    
    !Joan, you are too sensative, you just don't it yet./hth

    
    	And sensItive.  You're welcome.
    
    	8^)
    

!joan's playing coy...

    
    It's my prerogative to change my mind and become a man...
    

    
    Ah, next thing you know, you'll want to father babies!
    
    -b

because that's just how you _feel_, i suppose.

    
    I feel pretty
    Oh so pretty
    I feel pretty, and witty, and gay...
    

    
    
    Oh great.... another "Sybil" from up Canuck way...
    

    
    	Sybil?
    
    	More like Jaye Davidson.
    

    
    <!joan at her "window", anxiously awaiting the return of her man...>
    

i heard he's quite the stallion!

       Sexist swine!

    
    Sexists whine?
    

    Especially when they can't find any sorts of spots...
    

    
    rough crowd lately, like sharks at feeding time.

Can anything be done about that crooked Z?

    
    Just like a woman...always wantin' to tidy things up.
    
    You need to get in touch with your Z-spot.
    

I don't care!  It's just the way I feel!

    
    I feel stunning
    And entrancing
    Feel like running and dancing for joy...
    

    
    is that anythinbg like, say, take off Zeee bra baby?

    
    deb, get a grip

    
    Hey, grip yourself, Mark!
    

    I get the feeling he normally is, particularly when talking about Mz
    Debra.

>Can anything be done about that crooked Z?

Maybe, if you're all in a dither over it.

/john

    {stagger} {sway}

.354

The N in !JOAN is fine.  I think there's hope for the Z.
It's just that the crooked Z casts a pall on the panache.

.356

Dither thyself.

    
    Of course, we must recommend extreme caution when cocking
    your head, lest you become a cockhead.

    -b

    Who is Mr. Topan?

       Who is Mr Richardsoz?

A sad comment on today's society: the quick fix, the
band aid, the second rate favored over the first rate,
the sloth, the inconsistency.  The cockheads and whatever.

    I agree! 
    
    Mr. Richardsoz

        Me too.

    
    <------
    
    Is that with the temperature probe inserted???
    

       90 minutes Fahrenheit or Celsigrade?

    oo er.

    
    .370
    
    
    that'd be awfully *harsh*...
    

I'm up to imitating that famous scene from "The Exorcist".

    
    
    How many computer screens can you look at that way????
    
    :)
    

       
       I think that Soapbox would be an excellent forum in which to
       discuss exorcisms.  I feel certain that, if someone were to start
       such a topic, a rational and fact-finding discussion would ensue,
       with insight provided on various religious and sociological
       perspectives, without any rancor, attack, or indiscretion.
       

    
    Ground Control to Major Don...
    

Has anyone seen my black cat?

    ...you're poutine's limp, is there something wrong?  

    
    	YOUR
    
    	YOUR
    
    	YOUR
    
    	YOUR!!!!
    

    It happens to the best of us.

i am not poutine's limp.  at least that's not the way i feel.
even with my head cocked at 90 degrees.

    If you do that, the poutine will spill into your cleavage.

sexist swine!

    
    re: .383
    
    Then the by-product will be lodged in the bi-products...
    

Just to be somewhat on topic for the merest scintilla of a second, I read an
interesting assessment of the MMM. Boston Globe columnist Ellen McGory
compared some messages in this, and a recent "Promise Keepers" rally, that
appeared to promote male superiority.

I know some of you see her as a flaming liberal feminist, but she made a fairly
convincing argument. Both seem to be exhorting men to "take the lead" in their
families once again. This seems to fly in the face of the concept of partnership
that a relationship should be.  

    The "Promise Keepers" are fundamentalists who believe that the man
    should be the head of the home, the Priest of the family etc. And there
    are lots of women who share this opinion.

    
    Boy, it must be great to have a penis.  You get so much good stuff for
    free.
    
    

    
    ...like discounts at the hairdresser...
    

    
    	Well, Joan, I kinda get worried whenever I hear the phrase
    
    	"half off".
    

    How has the letter to the moderator crept in here?

  .388  it's very nice not having one too.  

    
    ...and discounts at the dry cleaner...
    
    

    
    > Boy, it must be great to have a penis.

    Not really. You waste _so_ much time looking for a place
    to put it...
    
    -b

    
    Brian (to Diane): "Can I leave this with you?"
    
    Diane: "Again?  Can't you take care of it, at least for today?"
    

    >Boy, it must be great to have a penis. 
    
     Boy, it must be great to have as many penises as you can, er,
    handle...

       
       Ah, finally.  The difference between owning and leasing is
       explained.

    
    .399
    
    BWAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

.386

>Boston Globe columnist Ellen McGory

Geez, at least get the chick's name right.

That was a good article...things will only worsen
between the sexes if women relinquish full
partnership in their relationships... meanwhile,
the leaders of these male groups can do all the dithering
they want to.

    .374
    
    Brandon,
    
    If you decide to do the exorcist bit let me know; I have a copy
    of Billy Preston's "Will It Go 'Round in Circles", it should make
    for fitting background music ;-)
    
    

Oh it's GOODMAN.

GOODMAN.

GOOD-MAN.

I got it now.

;-)

re:.403

I got a story ain't got no moral...

Let the bad guy win every once in a while...

You see [general 'box community] things aren't as simple as some like to
believe.

We have an exhortation for men to resume/become the "head" of the family...then
it becomes an issue of degrees.

    
    RE: .403 & .405

    I love that song. Using the organ hits on the off-beat was
    just a brilliant stroke. One of those songs that defies
    you to sit still. Very very cool.

    I suppose everyone realizes that Billy Preston, who did that
    song, is the same guy who  played  with the Beatles and
    the Stones...

    -b

    
    ...and also that the album is a bitch to find on CD.
     

    Collins,
    
    You got that one right.  Preston has always been a favorite of mine;
    but it's difficult to find CDs of his stuff.  I think he's gone
    back to his gospel roots quite a bit (definitely good listening,
    but doesn't get airplay).
    
    Aside from the album Brandon referred to (you CANNOT sit down and
    listen to that one); there were some pretty fair messages 
    in most of the songs.  I'm still trying to remember the next two
    lines after those Brandon typed in (but the record in still on my
    turntable, I'll resolve that when I get home) ;-}
    
    My favorite Preston album is of a live concert he did in Germany
    years ago; he might have played with the Beatles, but their version
    of "Get Back" pales in comparison to Preston's.
    
    

Million Man March    folks....    Million Man March

    
    <------  hey, we are having fun ratholing yet another topic. How dare
    you interfere!!! Off with his head, I say!!

    as citizens it's our God given right!

Yes! God given right to interfere

    
    <-----   did you really expect all replies to stay on the topic??
    
    My god, we can't have any of that in here.

    Stolen from TV Guide, who stole it from Letterman:
    
    A very sad thing happened at the Million Man March.  A confused
    Lee Majors showed up early to sign autographs.
    
    Chris

    
    Aside from Farakhan, this had all the makings of a very positive event.
    Unfortunately, the continuing post-march bickering about the number
    who attended may end up as it's lasting legacy!
    
    

    
    
    New count number 837,000 wiht a margin of error of 20%......

re:.416

See .1

(More than one has an agenda, my good man.)

    Pentium - the Official Counting Chip of the Two Million Man March
    
    Chris

    
    	It must have been programmed to count all the arms and legs and
    	divide by 4.
    
    	8^)
    

See, now y'all 'r gonna make me say I was there in spirit!