Conference back40::soapbox

    Please excuse the poor sentence structure in the base note!  
    
    Gosh, you people have me paranoid!! :-)

>         <<< Note 840.0 by ASGMKA::MARTIN "Concerto in 66 Movements" >>>

>       Now before you take this as a condecending remark,
>       understand that anybody can pretend to be a psychic.  Now I know
>       what you are thinking. 

	Case in point.

    
    Jack, whatever your drinking, have another.

    jack is a capricorn.  i can sense it.

    Gosh....all I did was have a vinding machine cheeseburger this
    morning!!! :-)

  I, too, know otherwise intelligent people who go to so-called psychics
 or mediums.  Nor have I had any success in arguing with them.

  Of course, I'm so skeptical of everything, nobody would expect me to
 believe in any of this hocus-pocus.  I also argue there are no UFOs, so
 I'm a hopeless case...

  bb

    Most are cheaper and at least as effective as many psychologists.  

    Well, I certainly believe that!!

              
       The vast majority of NE 'boxers will eat lunch
       within the next two hours.
     
       Steve will not say anything in the abortion topic to which Suzanne
       can agree.
     
       Mr Rocush will not say anything pro-democrat within the next
       five and a half million years.
     
       Battis will use a vending machine within 12 hours.
     
       Raq will turn up in the TTHT note.
     
     
    
    These things I predict will happen.
     
     
     Signed:  Nostrildamus, who nose all.
     
     

    he's got the gift!

Carl Sagan predicted (heh heh) a new dark age if we continue to embrace
superstition and psuedo-scientific nonsense, and reject scientific inquiry.

The irony, for instance, of arguing 3000 year old points of religious dogma
on a worldwide computer network is delicious...

    
    uh oh, colin was correct about mine. 

    If he's wrong on one point, he should be dealt with in the biblical
    manner.

    
    Jack, the psychics your friends/acquaintances consulted -- were these
    the "phony psychics", or were they the "real psychics?"
    

 ZZ   were these the "phony psychics", or were they the "real psychics?"
    
    I'm not sure.  I do however believe they are false prophets so it
    really doesn't matter either way.  
    
    "No one can serve two masters, for you must love one and hate the
    other, or you hold to one and despise the other.  You cannot serve both
    God and the world."  Applicable to serving money or secular
    humanism...depending on which idle you choose.
    
    -Jack

    I guess it depends on whether they are telling you something you want
    to hear or not. 
    
    You are going to win the lottery, would make me quite happy with
    his/her services. Likewise if I was told I was going to catch a terminal
    disease and die within the day, I would not be very impressed.
    
    I guess it also depends if you believe that sort of thing. I don't hvae
    much faith in these run of the mill folks, who makes outrageous
    claims. 
    
    I do however have a healthy respect of "witch doctors". These people
    are a different kettle of fish completley.
    
    Steven

    
    	Steven, wouldn't you be rather unhappy with the services if you
    	didn't end up winning the lottery after all?
    
    	However, what do you consider to be an adequate "statute of lim-
    	itations" for stuff like this?  If you haven't won the lottery in
    	the past 6 months, is that too long?
    

    
    The lady from the original Star Trek, Uhura Somebody, is selling
    psychic stuff on TV.
    
    

    like crystal balls?

    Nichelle Nichols.

    Also Dionne Warwick, and a former child actor, Gary something or other.
    
    

    re.17
    
    I have not won the Lottery at all. And my chances are pretty slim,
    considering I dont buy any tickets. It never seemed to interest me at
    all. I bought a couple tickets, along with the rest of the country,
    when everyone was lottery mad. 
    I guess the excitment just wore off.
    
    Steven

    
    	RE: .22
    
    	Well, if you don't buy any tickets, and a psychic tells you that
    	you're going to win the lottery, how much faith will you put into
    	that prediction?
    

    
    .21
    
    gary Coleman from Different Strokes?

    He might be given tickets.  

    
    	"Whachoo talkin' bout, Griffin??"
    

    I was drawing an analogy. a piece of good news versus a piece of bad
    news.
    
    Not too difficult to understand, one would have thought.

Is it Warwick or Warwicke these days?  She added the "e" on the advice of
a psychic.

    
    	RE: Steve
    
    	No, it's easy to understand, but how long should 1 expect to wait
    	before this "good thing" happens?  Is there a line between "well,
    	it came true" and "eventually, it had to come true, so there's no
    	reason to be impressed"?
    

    I always get a kick out of the commericals filled with
    satisfied customers who say,
    
    "He said I recently visited an island."
    "She told me I had a miscarrage."
    
    Heck, I want to know something about my FUTURE,
    not my past.  Who cares what I've already done?
    
    I don't like any 1-900 type promotion, regardless
    of it's content.  I've had tarot card readings, 
    and had a rune stone reading done.  I read my own cards
    from time to time.  Nothing can foretell your future.
    You and only you can write your own script for your
    life.  What I believe these experiences can do is
    open your mind up to another possibility, another
    side of an issue, another solution to a problem that
    you hadn't thought of previously, sort of like a whack
    on the side of the head.  The ultimate responsibility
    for the decision to be made, however, rests with the
    individual.
    
    I hate to see a person use anything; tarot cards,
    crystal balls, psychology or religion to try and
    migitate their own responsibilty for their own actions. 
    
    Mary-Michael
    
    

| <<< Note 840.15 by ASGMKA::MARTIN "Concerto in 66 Movements" >>>


| "No one can serve two masters, for you must love one and hate the other, or 
| you hold to one and despise the other.  You cannot serve both God and the 
| world."  

	So as long as they say they, "got the info through God", then it is
valid? 



Glen

 Z   So as long as they say they, "got the info through God", then it is
 Z   valid? 
    
    What I'm saying Glen, is that every revelation derives from a source. 
    Now David Koresh would say, "I am Jesus, therefore, you will obey me." 
    The gullible will follow blindly.  The discerning will ask if Koresh
    meets the requirements of a messiah...which is obvious he does not.  So
    your premise above is flawed.  For one to say it came through God must
    conclude the information came from an authoritative source.  We are all
    aware Glen that you reject scripture as an authoritative source so we,
    or at least I can understand where you are coming from.
    
    -Jack

    I should have acted on my idea for a 900-number service:  Weather
    guarantees.  You call up, press some buttons to indicate the place,
    date, and type of weather you'd like (sunny for picnics, snow for
    skiing, rain for crops, et cetera), and we guarantee you'll get the
    weather you want or your money back.*
    
    It would be a great money-maker.  With the right advertising, lots of
    people would call.  Some of them you couldn't charge because they
    wouldn't get the right weather, but all the others are pure profit.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.
    
    
    *For entertainment only.

| <<< Note 840.32 by ASGMKA::MARTIN "Concerto in 66 Movements" >>>


	Let's try this again Jack. If anyone else comes up with a message for
the future but someone who got a message from God through the Bible, then they
are bad. But if one fits the criteria above, then the message is valid, right?

 <yawn>

    Which reminds me, I need a coffee!
    
    

    Glen:
    
    I'm afraid I still am unclear as to what you are saying.  
    
    Take Jean Dixon for example.  Jean got a name for herself because she
    predicted JFK's demise in Dallas.  Is she a false prophet???  Of course
    she is because 80% of her other predictions are flat out wrong!  
    
    Now try to understand this Glen.  The psychic friends network and
    psychic evangelists of today claim the gift of prophecy...not because
    they self proclaim they can tell the future, but because they
    ACKNOWLEDGE a spiritual presence and a spiritual revelation.  It is as
    if a spirit is speaking to them...and they are giving the message to
    the listener.  This is what a prophet does Glen.  It foretells a
    message from an authoritative source.  
    
    A true prophet is never incorrect in relaying a message from God;
    therefore, psychics of today are dabbling in an area of spirituality
    they are either unfamiliar with, or they are a willing medium of a
    spiritual source foreign to God.
    
    -Jack

    
    	RE: .37, last paragraph
    
    	Ummm, didn't you forget 1 remote possibility?
    

    Yeah, they may also be money hungry grubbs exploiting uninformed Mrs.
    Doughertys!!

They might also be deluded fools who really believe they are receiving phone
calls from spirits, but are merely hallucinating.

    
    	RE: .39
    
    	Yes, that's the 1 I was thinking of.
    

    > You cannot serve both God and the world.
    
    My strategy would be to go after the biggest tipper.

    One could also say that you can't serve the world and god.

| <<< Note 840.35 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Give the world a smile each day" >>>


| <yawn>

	Gee, Jim..... staying up too late at night?

| <<< Note 840.37 by ASGMKA::MARTIN "Concerto in 66 Movements" >>>

| I'm afraid I still am unclear as to what you are saying.

	Of course you are! But that's expected. :-)  Jack language and Glen
language is foreign to most people. And when the two are combined, well, then
Jack and Glen just never understand! 

| A true prophet is never incorrect in relaying a message from God;


	Then what I said was correct. You believe if someone that you perceive
to be a true prophet makes a claim about the future, then it is valid. If
anyone else does, it is false. In this particular case it is the psycic network
people. 


Glen

    Do a search of "deceptive spirits" in the Bible.  I think the psychic
    hotlines/etc. fit the bill quite nicely.  
    
    I think that we are becoming more spiritual aware, today; but 
    unfortunately, it seems to come at a time when there is little spiritual 
    discernment.  It is predicted (in the Bible) that there will come a
    time of great spiritual deception, one so great that it will even fool
    Christians who are not firmly grounded in God's word.   
    
    IMO, we are only seeing the very beginnings of this, but it will
    escalate quickly (well, this is really no major prediction, it is
    already escalating quickly).  It's a pretty clear trend, if you know what 
    to look for.
    
    I now return you to our regularly schedules arguments already in progress.
    
    
    -steve 

    Yes, and UFO abductions are also clearly on the rise, if you know where
    to look for them.

| <<< Note 840.46 by ACISS2::LEECH "Terminal Philosophy" >>>

| Do a search of "deceptive spirits" in the Bible.  I think the psychic
| hotlines/etc. fit the bill quite nicely.

	What about someone talking in tongues.... or several people at once
talking in tongues.... how do you know it is for real? That it isn't a bad
spirit inside them? You definitely can't make out what they are saying. Just
how do you know? How do you decifer it through the Bible so you know that the
message that you don't know was just said was accurate and from God? You can't
use any passage that says people will speak in tongues as then there are
passages about false prophets as well. How do you tell if it is a good or bad
spirit in them?

	Of course you may be one who thinks that talking in tongues is not
real, I don't know... for me, it is different to listen to. 


Glen

    Not long ago a popular British psychic went bankrupt because her
    business manager had his hand in the money jar.  Now there's a 
    psychic I'd trust.
    
    

Sometimes I imagine myself as the Lone Ranger with a little psychic named Tonto.

    .48
    
    If I don't know what they are saying, what difference does it make? 
    8^)
    
    If you'll read further into the Bible about speaking in tongues, you
    will find that if it is really from God, there will be someone who can
    interpret it (and this interpretation will be consistent with
    scripture).
    
    
    -steve

    Glen:
    
    You do make a valid point regarding the use of tongues (no smart
    remarks Glen!!).  

| <<< Note 840.51 by ACISS2::LEECH "Terminal Philosophy" >>>

| If you'll read further into the Bible about speaking in tongues, you will find
| that if it is really from God, there will be someone who can interpret it (and
| this interpretation will be consistent with scripture).

	Ahhhh.... so if I get someone to speak in tongues, and get another to
quote some message from the Bible, then it is valid in your eyes because of
this. Ok.... no wonder Jim and Tammy made so much money. 



Glen

Z    Ahhhh.... so if I get someone to speak in tongues, and get another to
Z    quote some message from the Bible, then it is valid in your eyes
Z    because of this. Ok.... no wonder Jim and Tammy made so much money. 
    
    I fail to see any cogent line of thought in this response.
    
    First of all, interpretation of tongues is done outside the text of
    scripture...that being an utterance would be over and above a message
    directly from scripture.  The Bible is the finished revelation of God
    and therefore tongues is no longer of any use.  So I don't consider it
    valid in my eyes at all.  This is why I told you we need to test the
    spirits. when considering truth from a lie.
    
    As far as Jim and Tammy are concerned, I don't believe they were a
    tongues oriented ministry.  They were evangelical in nature but I don't
    believe they were charismatic to that extent.  Jim and Tammy Bakker,
    simply put, exploited religion for personal gain.  
    
    Therefore Glen, you are only affirming my point that psychics are
    either exploiting a violently stupid clientele or they are taking
    guidance from an unauthoritative spirit.  Pick your poison.
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 840.54 by ASGMKA::MARTIN "Concerto in 66 Movements" >>>

| First of all, interpretation of tongues is done outside the text of
| scripture...that being an utterance would be over and above a message
| directly from scripture.  

	Jack, anyone can take Scripture and interpret it to mean what they want 
it to mean, and get a whole bunch of people to follow them. 

	Add in the fact that just through interpretation you end up with so many
different denominations should show that. 

	So yeah, tongues can be just like anything else. If one had the
capability of figuring out the jibberish, then even if the message matches the
Bible, how do you know it was the RIGHT message? You don't. And at the same
time, anyone could easily pull the wool over your eyes. Tag team tongues.

| As far as Jim and Tammy are concerned, I don't believe they were a tongues 
| oriented ministry.  

	Their tongues got a lot of money... who are you kidding?

| Therefore Glen, you are only affirming my point that psychics are either 
| exploiting a violently stupid clientele or they are taking guidance from an 
| unauthoritative spirit.  

	Errr..... no more than any religion can. 


Glen

    | Therefore Glen, you are only affirming my point that psychics are
    | either 
    | exploiting a violently stupid clientele or they are taking guidance from
    | anunauthoritative spirit.  
    
    ZZ        Errr..... no more than any religion can. 
    
    Exactly...which is what I implied in the base note.  A clergyman could
    do the same.
    
    A clergy is typically under the scrutiny of the church leadership or
    the denomination.  A psychic is under the authority of self.
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 840.56 by ASGMKA::MARTIN "Concerto in 66 Movements" >>>

| Exactly...which is what I implied in the base note.  A clergyman could
| do the same.

	Except you give the clergyperson more authority. I don't think when you
say:

| A clergy is typically under the scrutiny of the church leadership or
| the denomination.  A psychic is under the authority of self.



	...that it automatically holds any more validity. I mean, look at what
happened to Jesus, and He KNEW what He was talking about was true. (of course
this will only apply to Christians)

 huh?

    
    	Glen, the validity does not decrease just because people don't
    	believe you.
    

    Glen, I'm afraid I'm not understanding banter at all well today, could
    you go at it a bit slower?

    .58 ditto, but with more intensity

    
    	If he'd just resort to blurting, at least there'd be no presumption
    	of credibility.
    

	In other words, it appears that Jack gives validity to someone who
interpretes tongues if it matches Scripture. What is to stop someone who could
use that knowledge to rip people off? Jim and Tammy are people who used the
knowledge of the Bible to rip people off.

	And in conclusion..... the validity of any interpretation is not any
more valid if one uses the Bible to back their claim. It is no more valid if
the person is a Christian or the person is not. 

	The psycic friends stuff is also on this same level. There are people 
who will rip off others. There will be people who actually believe they have
some sort of gift. But in the end, their predictions, interpretations, etc, are
only valid if they come true. And like I said above, being a Christian doesn't
mean an interpretation or a message is any more valid.

    re: .62
    
      You ARE funny!!

      re: .63
    
      "Being a Christian..."
    
      My own personal belief on this.
    
      Anyone is a Christian who has received any revelation of the
      love of God in a way that allows that revelation to change the
      heart.  (The 'way', I call faith.)
    
      I don't care if the person is a Buddhist in the Himalayans.  If
      he has responded to the word of creation, he has, imo, responded
      to a revelation of the word of his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
      and that word, if received by faith, will perform a work.  That
      person, to some extent, will emanate the divine character.
    
      Christianity is progressive.  Or to put another way, people do
      not receive such a full revelation of God's character that their
      own characters are so changed that they reflect only Him.  That
      is, the heart is in a state of flux reflecting both sinfulness
      and righteousness to varying degree.
    
      So, if one is a Christian, I would agree with you Glen, however,
      I believe the probability is higher that what the word they give
      is authoritative simply on the basis that they have begun the
      path of giving His word and not their own.
    
    						Tony

    Correction:
    
    I meant to say that people do not receive it all at once.
    
    I think its possible however.  I believe perfection in character
    is possible.
    
    						Tony

    
    	RE: .63
    
    	Eesh, is THAT what you were trying to say?
    
    	I didn't get that at all.
    

 Z   Except you give the clergyperson more authority. I don't think when
 Z   you say:
    
    Glen, I give the clergyman more credance because the person is schooled
    and is following the protocol of their church or the tenets of the
    pastoral epistles.  I do agree with you though that virtually anything
    can be used as a deceptive tool...including religion.  
    
    A point I am making above others is that America is a gullible
    society...and the use of psychics is evidence of that.  What I see is a
    lot of people...good people...who are looking for deeper meaning in
    their lives.  Psychics offer a smidgen of the supernatural and this
    fascinates the average human.  The problem is Satan is in the business
    of counterfeiting.  He will take a little bit of the truth and mix it
    with a lie.  If you have a cup of water and a cup of poison, and
    combine the two, then the drink in its whole is deadly.
    
    -Jack

    .63
    
    In other words, there is no truth (that can be known), so every man for
    himself!  Christianity is relative, as there are no absolute
    guidelines.

    Steve:
    
    I am attempting to ignore the undertones Glen is giving regarding his
    lack of relevency toward scripture.  It never made sense to me either. 
    You either believe or you don't believe.  Glen's been consistent in
    trying to appease both sides of the fence and it simply doesn't work
    that way.
    
    -Jack 

| <<< Note 840.65 by YIELD::BARBIERI >>>


| I believe the probability is higher that what the word they give is 
| authoritative simply on the basis that they have begun the path of giving His 
| word and not their own.

	I disagree. Humans are humans, period. How many times in your life,
since you found God, have you thought you were going down the right path, only
to find out you have taken the wrong one? 


Glen

| <<< Note 840.70 by ASGMKA::MARTIN "Concerto in 66 Movements" >>>

| Glen's been consistent in trying to appease both sides of the fence and it 
| simply doesn't work that way.

	There is no, "both sides of the fence" with this. Humans make mistakes,
can be deceptive, period. So to say any group is better at being accurate based
on their faith is hogwash. If they're correct due to fact, that's different. 

    
>    In other words, there is no truth (that can be known), so every man for
>    himself!  Christianity is relative, as there are no absolute
>    guidelines.


 You're finally catching on, Steve!

    Glen:
    
    I'm still convinced you take this stance because there are things in
    your own life you are unable to reconcile...understandably!

| <<< Note 840.74 by ASGMKA::MARTIN "Concerto in 66 Movements" >>>

| I'm still convinced you take this stance because there are things in
| your own life you are unable to reconcile...understandably!

	Jack, in your world reality isn't the #1 thing you strive for, so this
is to be expected! :-)



Glen

    Our Psycho Fiends provide the least amount of evidence that we are
    a gullible society.  Much more tangible measures of that, such as $$
    spent political contributions.

Wot, you wouldn't spend $100K to sleep in the bed in which Willie Lincoln died
of typhoid?

    You won't find my name in the Lincoln logs.
    
                         

    
    I predict the Chicago Bulls will win the NBA championship this summer.
    
    I also predict that I'll be working for a new employer before June.
    
    oh, and as a free bonus for you all, I predict I'll win the Soapbox
    NCAA pool again this year.

    You can win the Soapbox pool, but I want to successfully defend my
    office pool title.  Can he do it two years in a row?  Stay tuned! (it
    will be mostly luck if I win... this time - at least last year I had
    time to watch a lot of games, and keep updated on injury reports, team
    patterns, etc.)

    i'm still seeing short people and small chairs
    in an old house.

    Change your prescription.  That will be $5.25.  

You're cheap, Brian.

    I like to think of myself as being a good value and not necessarily
    cheap.  

    
    	More bang for the buck, eh?
    

    do what a fortune teller tells you.
    do what the canada food guide tells you.
    do what god tells you.
    do what ditty.
    do what DIGITAL tells you.
    do what your father says.
    do what to your neighbors spouse what you can.
    do what a good novel tells your heart.
    do what your president does.
    do what makes your bones feel good.
    do what makes your meat feel right.
    do what you say
    do what you do
    do what?
    do
    doo ditty doo.

    
    <---- I believe Canada has lower dosages than in the US. Up the doseage
    considerably. That will be $10.

    I'm really disappointed at the replies to my wonderful poem, It's like:
    I just voluntarily terminated myself from this wonderful establishment
    and like, you guys don't care. I'm boo hoo hooing.
    
    Mr. C.

    
    	This is SOAPBOX, where we don't care what you think.
    
    	Get used to it.
    

    That was a poem?  

    well not really a poem, more like a collection of words, i just called
    it a poem because of the do what ditty and such, i guess it's more like
    a really bad rock'n'roll song.

    
    
    
    Do what? Ditty, dat what.

    no no john it goes.......
    
    doo waa ditty ditty dum ditty doo
    

    "Do be do be dooooooo...."
    	
    
    					--Frank Sinatra--

    
    
    	Hey, all you fabsix people GET BACK TO WORK! ;*)
    
    

    
    
    
    
    				NO!!
    
    				8)
                              

    
    
    	Where's my switch? 
    
    :)

    they r generaly located on the wall
    ya know to turn the lights on and off......
    
    
    		   8)
    

    Those FABs make me SIX. :-)
    
    Bright Blessings,
    
    PJ