Conference back40::soapbox

			-< Memorable Quotes >-

	"Flying is the safest way to fly."

				- Shelley Berman

re: "We can't discuss security issues."

The only thing which could make a 747 explode with no warning is a bomb.

OK, an unlucky encounter with a large meteor, maybe.

This surpasses the previous most deadly airline accident in U.S. history:
the 1979 crash on takeoff from O'Hare of an American Airlines DC-10 due
to faulty engine bolts.  Only 273 died in that crash.

/john

Oh, wow.

Someone managed to videotape the flaming aluminum shower.

    Is CNN showing details?

         What sort of terrorist group would target a flight from New York
    to Paris? 

The video is not flaming aluminum showers, but rather search and rescue
boats around the crash site.

/john

re .6  "what sort of terrorist group"

Any sort.

There are any number of groups that have threatened that as long as U.S.
foreign policy remains hostile to their politics, Americans will not be
safe anywhere in the world.

/john

         We can only hope that this isn't the start of a wave of attacks
    tied to the Olympic Games in Atlanta. 

The aircraft had arrived from Athens three hours before takeoff.

(Flight 800 originated at LAX, but there was a change of aircraft at JFK.)

    Can't we all just hit a bong..er..get along

         Athens, huh? That's mighty coincidental.....

    The BBC reported the toll as 229, not 281.
    
    Two witnesses reported *two* explosions, one minor, followed by a
    major.
    
    A spokesman, when asked if there were any survivors from an 8,000 ft
    high explosion, di not hit the questioner, merely replying "we think
    this unlikely".
    
    
    a

 Once again all of the local newsreaders are transformed into aviation/aero-
 nautical experts..amazing some of the things these people say.



 
Jim

	I watched part of nightline last night and they were talking with a
women who was real close to it all. She said there was an explosion, then a big
fireball all the way down to the water. Then 5 more explosions. Just the
thought of all that happening is scary to even think about. Just what was going
through the people's minds if they were alive, etc. 

	I stopped watching Nightline when Ted asked the woman if she thought
there would be any survivors. Yeah.... she knows the answer to that question...


Glen

    According to a former NTSB officer interviewed by NPR, the engine
    explosion recently experienced by Delta might have a similar effect
    if it happened in flight.  The 'plane would disintegrate.  
    
    TWA is emerging from a long period of losses, it's fleet is the oldest
    (average 'plane age >18yrs) in the industry.  Although this is highly
    suspicious right now, it might also turn out to be due to shoddy
    maintenance.
    
    I assume all are agreed that we'd send terrorists to ol' sparky.   Will
    it be the same for some airline executive who would play fast and loose
    with public safety just for the sake of making a buck?

    That's called "corporate manslaughter" in the UK.

PLANE               AGE             NUMBER
Air 21
F28                 14.3              3
Air Alaska
B-1900              6.7               2
Air L.A.
Metro               2.6               1
Air Midwest
B-1900              3.3              15
Air South
B-737              21.8               8
Airtran Airways
B-737              19.9              10
Alaska Airlines
B-737               6.3              30
DC-9                7.4              44
Allegheny Comuter Airlines
DHC-8               5.3              36
Aloha Airlines
B-737              13.8              15
Aloha Islandair
DHC-8               9.0               3
America West Airlines
B-737              11.3              60
B-757               9.5              14
American Airlines
A-300               6.7              35
B-727              19.2              73
B-757               4.4              86
B-767               7.3              71
DC-10              12.7              35
C-9                 8.1             260
F28                 3.3              75
Arizona Airways
B-1900             7.3                5
Atlantic Southeast Airlines
ATR-42             2.8               12
MB-120             7.1               63
Atlas Air
B-747             18.1               13
Big Sky Airlines
Metro             16.9                3
Business Express
B-1900             8.9               20
Saab-340           6.3               37
Capitol Air Express
B-727             27.3                2
Carnival Airlines
B-727            14.6                 1
CCAir
DHC-8             5.8                 4
Challenge Air Cargo
B-757             5.9                 3
Chautauqua Airlines
Metro             9.7                 8
Saab-340          8.8                12
Colgan Air
B-1900            6.6                 6
Comair
EMB-120           5.6                40
Metro             9.1                 8
Saab-340         10.0                16
Commutair
B-1900            2.8                30
Conquest Airlines
Metro            11.4                 8
Continental Air Lines
ATR-42            4.4                 1
B-727            19.7                32
B-737            11.6               127
B-757             1.4                16
DC-10            19.7                16
DC-9             15.2                96
Continental Express
ATR-42            6.3                41
B-1900             .7                14
EMB-120           6.8                32
Metro            17.7                 1
Delta Air Lines
B-727            19.2               131
B-737            11.3                67
B-757             7.3                86
B-767             7.9                57
DC-10             3.7                11
DC-9              5.5               131
Desert Sun Airlines
F28               1.2                 2
Eastwind Airlines
B-737            26.2                 2
Era Aviation Inc.
DHC-8             6.8                 2
Executive Airlines
ATR-42            7.7                 11
Express Airlines
Saab-340          8.2                 37
Flagship Airlines
ATR-42            5.0                 10
Saab-340          4.9                 46
Floridagulf Airlines
B-1900            2.3                 23
EMB-120           5.4                  9
Frontier Airlines
B-737            22.4                  7
GP-Express Airlines
B-1900            8.4                 20
Grand Airways
Metro            14.9                  1
Great Lakes Aviation
B-1900            5.0                 32
EMB-120           4.9                 12
Gulfstream International
B-1900           11.3                 19
Hawaiian Airlines
DC-10            23.6                  8
DC-9             18.8                 13
Horizon Airlines
DHC-8             7.8                 23
F28              22.3                 10
Metro            10.2                 25
Jettrain
DC-9             28.2                  2
Kiwi International Airlines
B-727            22.6                 16
Liberty Express
B-1900            3.3                  9
Lone Star Airlines
Metro             6.1                  6
Mahalo Air
ATR-42            5.2                  6
Markair Express
B-1900            6.2                  4
Mesa Airlines
B-1900            3.0                 68
DHC-8             4.3                  4
EMB-120           4.2                 10
Mesaba Airlines
DHC-8             3.7                 25
Metro             7.9                 27
Midstate Airlines
Metro            15.1                  2
Midway Airlines
F28               3.2                 12
Midwest Express Airlines
DC-9             23.5                 22
Mountain West Airlines
B-1900             .8                  9
Nations Air Express
B-737            27.6                  2
North American Airlines
B-757             3.8                  2
DC-9              5.2                  1
Northern Star Airlines
B-1900             .8                  2
Northwest Airlines
B-727            17.2                 45
B-747            15.2                 41
B-757             8.5                 38
DC-10            22.0                 34
DC-9             25.3                181
Peninsula Airways
Metro             8.7                  6
Piedmont Airlines
DHC-8             6.7                 45
Polar Air Cargo
B-747            25.8                 12
Presidential Air
B-727            18.8                  1
Prestige Airways
B-727            25.4                  3
Reeve Aleutian Airways
B-727            29.7                  2
Reno Air
DC-9              5.4                 23
Simmons Airlines
ATR-42            4.4                 58
Saab-340          4.1                 40
Skyway Airlines
B-1900            1.9                 15
Skywest Airlines
EMB-120           4.3                 34
Metro             9.0                 24
Southwest Airlines
B-737             8.0                229
Sun Country Airlines
B-727            15.5                  1
Sun Jet International
DC-9             21.3                  6
Sunworld International
B-727            20.3                  1
Tower Air
B-747            23.2                 20
Trans States Airlines
ATR-42            6.3                 11
EMB-120           9.7                  2
Metro            14.2                  2
Trans World Airlines
B-727            22.2                 40
B-747            25.5                 11
B-767            11.4                 15
DC-9             17.8                107
United Air Lines
B-727            17.2                 74
B-737            11.4                226
B-747            13.4                 49
B-757             4.5                 88
B-767             8.3                 42
DC-10            19.7                 34
USAir
B-737             9.9                203
B-757             5.6                 34
B-767             7.3                  9
DC-9             19.8                 94
F28               7.0                 54
USAir Shuttle
B-727            25.0                 11
ValuJet Airlines
DC-9             25.7                 49
Vanguard Airlines
B-737            22.7                  8
Westair Commuter Airlines
EMB-120           7.2                 21
Western Pacific Airlines
B-737             9.8                 14
Wings West Airlines
Saab-340          3.5                 36

1 -- DC-9s and MD-80s are counted as one type of plane, as are F28s and F100s.
Source: Back Associates

    
      They have 400 Coast Guard guys searching.  They've got some pieces
     of aluminum and 50-70 bodies burned "beyond recognition".  What they
     are REALLY looking for, however, is "the box".  Whether it was a
     bomb can almost certainly be definitively determined if they find it.
    
      bb
    

    
    i had heard there were 229 people on board.  according to the base
    note, there were 32 crew members on the plane...why were there so many
    crew members on board???  i have never been on a flight where there was
    more than 10 members, including perhaps off-duty members flying along
    for the ride...
    
    anyway, this is a horrible thing.  terrorism hasn't been ruled out. 
    i'd rather it be poor maintenance of the plane than an attack...i just 
    hope it was an accident...
    
    

        re:.20

    I am not too sure which would be worse. Knowing that there are people
    out there plotting to down the planes of major international
    airlines. Or that the Airlines are flying outdated planes, that are
    endangering our lives anyway.
    

    The plan was a 747 100, which were, I believe, superceded in 1976.

>i have never been on a flight where there was more than 10 members

The corrected number of crew is 17: 3 in the cockpit plus 14 flight
attendants, all on duty.

/john

    > The plan was a 747 100, which were, I believe, superceded in 1976.
    
    Someone needs to ask a few questions here.
    
    * If they were superseded in 1976, what on earth are they still in
    service.
    
    * Who made these decisions.
    
    If I was a shareholder, I would certainly be seeking these answers. 
    
    

.24:

I s'pose you trade your car in when the new model comes out?

>    * If they were superseded in 1976, what on earth are they still in
>    service.

Planes generally remain in service for at least 30-50 years after they
are superseded.  All 747-100s built are still in service, except for
those very few that have had some sort of mishap.

/john    

	Let's just say it was terrorists. You know the security will be greater
now. Why would it be any less? Why does it take an accident to make people do
something, and then a couple of months later they go back to the old ways?


Glen

Judging from John's list of fleet ages, TWA has the oldest 747's.  That's
excluding Polar Air Cargo.

    
      Long ago Congress "mandated" the fancy security machines that
     can detect plastique explosives, to be installed in US airports
     by 1993.  Apparently, this was NOT done in NY, as too expensive,
     and the FAA let it slide.  Expect more Congressional FAA hearings.
    
      bb

The former Inspector General of the FAA was interviewed by Howdy Doody
last night; she indicated that she had left after submitting a report
on security, and would not indicate whether it was positive or negative,
since the FAA had not decided whether to release it.

However, she did talk about her previous report, which indicated that
the FAA had been ignoring the 1990 law because "the machines are not
foolproof, and are very expensive."

Families of the PA 103 victims have been intensely lobbying Congress
and the FAA to do something about this.

/john

    Some airline security consultant on the radio this morning was saying
    that there really is no way to stop a determined terrorist who wants to
    blow up a plane if s/he doesn't mind going down with it.  There are
    more ways to conceal explosives than there are to find them.
    
    But he also said that blowing up planes is not nearly as popular with
    terrorists as it once used to be, and no group has yet claimed
    responsibility, so it is way premature to assume terrorism in this
    case.

    He's not Howdy Doody.  He's Alfred E. Newman.

There's a diff?

        >I s'pose you trade your car in when the new model comes out?

    No, but I know how old my car is, and I know when it needs a repair. 

    You as a passenger do not know how old the Aeroplane is. My car is only
    carrying myself, and 3 other passengers. Not in excess of 200.
    Passengers are paying for a service. It is up too the airlines to
    ensure that there planes are fit for service. No way how you look it,
    old planes should not be flown. If they are being used in service then
    they should pass the necessary safety checks. If it had passed the
    safety checks, then I think these will need looking at.

    I would have to agree with, the idea that terrorism was not involved.
    What political gains could be achieved from this. And most terrorists
    like to brag about there exploits. If no-one has yet claimed
    responsibility, then I doubt that it was anything other than an
    accident.
    

No terrorist group ever claimed responsibility for PA 103.

/john

    .31
    
    > There are
    > more ways to conceal explosives than there are to find them.
    
    For example, conceal some Semtex or C-4 in a battery for a laptop
    computer.  Some laptops have two battery compartments; stick the
    doctored battery in one of these.  Now insist that the laptop be
    hand-inspected instead of run through the X-ray/sniffer machine.  You
    can power the laptop up and run it just fine on one battery.
    
    If you really want to be cute, you can even set the laptop up with an
    extra wire or two such that it will detonate the bomb at a specified
    time.  This would be particularly useful when you don't want to be
    blown up with the plane - get on in Boston, bound for Paris via New
    York, and get off in New York after concealing the laptop against the
    outer wall of one of the restrooms.

>Now insist that the laptop be hand-inspected instead of run through the
>X-ray/sniffer machine.

1. We don't have sniffer machines in the U.S., it seems.

2. In most of Europe, you _will_not_get_through_security_ with anything
   which does not go through the machine.  I had some extra time at
   Gatwick last month, and attempted to insist that my Newton be hand
   inspected.  I was informed that there was no way to get an exception
   for any device.  I asked to whom I should apply (or have my company
   apply) for an exception in the future, and was told that it was
   impossible.  This by the manager of security at Gatwick.

/john

    Maybe TWA is just carrying cargo for ValuJet.

re: .36

[Hmmm. Herr Binder seems to know much about these sorts of things.]

    .37
    
    We discussed your point 2 somewhere in here before, and memory tells me
    that someone with experience in the matter explained that having a
    letter from your company would indeed work in many/most places in Yurp.

>    We discussed your point 2 somewhere in here before, and memory tells me
>    that someone with experience in the matter explained that having a
>    letter from your company would indeed work in many/most places in Yurp.

Apparently not at Gatwick.

/john

    That was me, but more recent experience leads me to agree with John.
    In Heathrow, there is no way you are getting through unless you
    put everything in the detector.   In fact, this has led to a spate of
    laptop thefts, where the owner arrives at the other end to find their
    machine is gone.  Companies have been complaining about breaches in
    their security as a result of missing machines, but airport security
    says "then don't bring them".
    
    Flight 800 apparently went through Athens recently, where security
    has been questioned in the past.
    
                                 

    > Apparently not at Gatwick.
    
    At Gatwick, the security people refused me permission to ship a
    DISASSEMBLED AIR RIFLE in the baggage compartment of the plane I was
    getting on.  At Gatwick, the security people are joiks.

>    Flight 800 apparently went through Athens recently, where security
>    has been questioned in the past.
    
It had just arrived from Athens, three hours before heading back out to Paris.

Hare Binder's scenario that someone might drop something into the outer
wall of the lavatory and then get off the plane at the next stop is quite
likely what happened in this case.

/john

    I know security at Gatwick is very tight. I got hauled and searched
    even before going through into the departure lounge. I had just check
    in, and was about to walk through when I was approached by security. 
    
    I was told I fit a profile, of people that they have to look out for.
    
    >At Gatwick, the security people refused me permission to ship a
     DISASSEMBLED AIR RIFLE in the baggage compartment of the plane I
     was getting on.  At Gatwick, the security people are joiks.
    
    
    Guys are just doing there jobs. Give em a break.
    

    .45
    
    > Guys are just doing there jobs. Give em a break.
    
    That's what they did for me, gave me a break.  Or, rather, for my air
    rifle, which I was forced to mail and which arrived at my destination
    in a broken condition.

re:             <<< Note 760.44 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>

Hey! What happened to that intriguing bit about "the pouch" and the State 
Department that you'd included in the first posting?

I did some checking; unaccompanied diplomatic pouches are unclassified and
are subject to x-ray and other security measures.  So I removed my comments.
(There were unaccompanied U.S. diplomatic pouches aboard; presumably they
were inspected like any other cargo.)

/john

    
    Pilots of a small plane near the the TWA flight stated they were
    watching the lights from the plane. Then suddenly it just exploded
    into a fireball. Altitude was at 7500 feet.
     
    

my brother-in-law had a very close friend (attendent) killed on that
flight.

The local cable company in Acton just interrupted CNN's broadcast of a
TWA news conference at JFK to insert local advertising.

/john

    A coworker said there was a high-school class trip on board
    the flight headed for a French vacation.
    
    :-(

There's a new count: 228.

Two less passengers (210), one more cockpit crew (4), still 14 attendants.
Names of cockpit crew were just released.

/john

    
    re: the french club...
    
    
    i would think that if the club had missed their flight, someone would
    have called home saying so, or someone would have called home when they
    got to paris.  it doesn't seem that there has been such a call...
    
    brings back memories of when my french club went to europe via new
    york.  the worse thing that happened to us was the we almost missed the
    plane...
    
    %^<
    
    

    As a side issue, I have to get this off my chest regarding the
    TV coverage:
    
    In the wee hours last night, I was switching back and forth between
    CNN and CNBC.  CNBC was running the coverage from their new cable
    news channel, MSNBC, which is apparently some kind of joint venture
    between Microsoft and NBC.
    
    For now I'll mostly ignore MSNBC's anchordrone, who seemed to be an
    amalgam of Jerry Springer, Ted Baxter, and Stonejaw Phillips; his
    gestures, vocal inflections, and overall attitude were far too
    cavalier for me.
    
    MSNBC was doing an average job of covering the plane explosion,
    especially given that this was only their third day of operation.
    They were doing the usual expected segments involving quickly-arranged
    telephone interviews with various involved people, press conferences
    by TWA and government reps, in-studio interviews with experts, and
    the like.
    
    Then for their next "news segment", they decided to demonstrate for
    us how wonderful the Internet was at a time like this, so they cut
    to another desk in the studio with two people and an Internet
    workstation.  One person (obviously a marketing techie of some kind)
    proceeded to excitedly pitch her Internet talk to the other person
    about the wonders of the Internet.
    
    We learned all about how we could log on and get all kinds of information
    about the airplane and related topics from Web sites, how people could
    discuss the crash on-line and express their feelings and concerns, and
    so on.  This patter was accompanied by her demoing assorted Web sites,
    newsgroups and/or chat groups, etc., on the monitor.
    
    At the end of this "news segment" on the plane explosion, she was all
    happy and smiling as they handed it back to the anchor.  At least the
    other person with her (I don't know the infomercial terminology for the
    second person in these pitches who's there to be the surrogate "us",
    that the pitch person is addressing their comments to) had the good
    taste to remain somber given the circumstances, as they cut back to
    live shots of flaming wreckage bobbing up and down in the sea.
    
    Disgusting.  Is this the future of television "news"?  At least with
    "old-fashioned" TV news, we can maintain a pretense that the whole
    news operation isn't bought off by some business with a vested interest
    who wants to "tie in" their product as often as they can.
    
    For those of you who are more comfortable with this than I am, what
    would have been your reaction in the 1960's, back when RCA owned NBC,
    if during (for example) the coverage of the Kennedy assassination,
    amidst all of the reports, interviews, press conferences, etc., once
    in a while the NBC News folks did a segment on how wonderful it was
    to be able to see all of this as it happened, right in our homes,
    with a brand-spanking-new 21" RCA color TV, complete with demo and
    smiling pitchmen.
    
    John Chancellor must be spinning...
    
    Chris

        Who was the CNN guy? He looked like a mannequin to me.

On the other hand, Peter Jennings (from 10-11) managed to make an
impressively large fool of himself, even by his standards.

    Well, he is from the Ottawa Valley, after all.

    re: Peter Jennings (and others)

    Never saw him, or any of the other "Big Three" network coverage,
    because, incredibly, by the time I'd started channel surfing and
    discovered the plane-explosion news at around 12:15 AM, the *only*
    networks covering the story were CNN and CNBC (via the Bill Gates
    News Network), and also New Jersey's local WWOR which my cable system
    carries.

    The "Big Three" were showing Leno yukking it up, Letterman yukking
    it up, and some trashy tabloid "news" show.  Amazing... did they do
    this after the OKC bombing as well?

    Chris

    >    Who was the CNN guy? He looked like a mannequin to me.
    
    If it's the same guy that I was watching from around midnight to
    three AM or so, I thought he looked like one of those scary Duracell
    battery "people".
    
    But once I got past his looks, he seemed to be doing a credible job,
    especially when he was questioning people in hastily-arranged
    telephone interviews and the like, with his rapid-fire questions.
    Either he can think on his feet, or CNN is extremely organized
    and fast in coming up with pre-written questions for the guy
    to ask, or both.
    
    Either that, or my standards have been permanently lowered and
    it's all hopeless.  :-)
    
    Chris

    .61:
    
    Well, that 'splains the trace of Canadian accent, I guess.

    
    In Alameda (Bay area, CA) I first saw the coverage on WABC (a local
    NY station relayed out here obviously) quite accidentally... I mean 
    this was around 6:00 PST, so it was FRESH. What surprised me was 
    none of the other networks carried anything at the time (I don't have 
    cable); in  fact they didn't start reporting until about 8-9pm PST!
    
    I got to tell you though... the pair of anchors on the WABC was a
    colossal joke. At one point the female anchor was laughing away,
    probably delighted to have a news scoop. The male anchor was, pardon
    me, NOT very smart. I'm not talking rocket scientiest type of smart
    here. You won't believe the stupid questions he asked. The female
    (all spiffed up younger blonde) was extremely competitive, cutting 
    the old fool anytime she got, to show off how much smarter she was.
    She wasn't a good actor, but again it was a perverse "delight" to
    see an "honest-feeling" anchor on line. Her name was Diane or Diana
    something, and the old fool was a Bill something.
    
    Nope, I kid you not about this "news reporting". Of course later
    Jennings of the network might, quickly put these two jokers in their
    rightful place. Furthermore he managed to pretty much accused an
    eyewitness who happened to be fishing out bodies as a liar; that he
    (Jennings) did not know if indeed this was a legit eyewitness, all
    the while this guy was saying he was busy helping out! I just couldn't,
    couldn't believe it!
    
    Frankly I have no respect for these so-called journalists. This was a
    field day for them. A scoop, that's all, and all the crocodile tears/
    expressions pasted on their faces will not convince me otherwise.
    
    OK, now I am appalled at all the song-n-dance the officials are doing
    right now. Give me a break; it looked like Lockerbie, smelled like
    Lockerbie, it most probably was a Lockerbie.
    

    > Frankly I have no respect for these so-called journalists. This was a
    > field day for them. A scoop, that's all, and all the crocodile tears/
    > expressions pasted on their faces will not convince me otherwise.
    
    I'm not sure who's worse, the "journalists" or the Parade of
    Politicians and their surrounding cronies who feel they must
    crowd around anything that looks like a microphone stand,
    telling us about how sad they are and how they're doing everything
    they can.  I mean, what's the mayor of NYC going to do, send out
    the rec department?  Why do we want to see and hear him?
    
    
    > OK, now I am appalled at all the song-n-dance the officials are doing
    > right now. Give me a break; it looked like Lockerbie, smelled like
    > Lockerbie, it most probably was a Lockerbie.
    
    Because the "crack" team at the White House doesn't want to deal with
    a Lockerbie.  One eagerly awaits their reactions and actions in the
    days ahead.  If they have another anti-terrorism bill all ready to
    send off to Congress, I won't be surprised.
    
    Chris

| <<< Note 760.62 by DECWIN::RALTO "Jail to the Chief" >>>

| The "Big Three" were showing Leno yukking it up, Letterman yukking
| it up, and some trashy tabloid "news" show.  Amazing... did they do
| this after the OKC bombing as well?

	Chris, what you missed was the same 3 stations saying the same things
over and over again. You can only do that for so long. And with channel 7 is
concerned, they are the worst. Tabloid news at best. Sensationalizing the news
would be better. The reporter told a pilot who just flew in about it. The guy
had a friend on the flight and was deeply upset. Hell, why doesn't channel 7
lose their license????

    > Hell, why doesn't channel 7 lose their license????
    
    If Channel 7 lost their license, at least three makeup and hair-products
    companies would immediately go out of business, having lost the
    revenue of Channel 7's News Department.  So let's keep Channel 7
    going, it's good for the economy!
    
    
    re: the plane explosion
    
    If it's a terrorist bombing, I wonder if it's coincidental with the
    our Cuba/EC saber-rattling, or coincidental with the Olympics (the
    media loves this one; I'm less convinced due to the location if
    nothing else), or coincidental with nothing in particular other
    than the "usual" anti-US feelings.
    
    Chris

    I think Don Henley said it very well...
    
    See the bubble-headed bleach blonde she comes on at 5,
    she can tell ya bout the plane crash with a gleam in her eyes
    interesting when people die gives ya dirty laundry
    
    News sells, bad news sells better. It's the "ratings game".
    
    Too sad

    Stinger missle.  Bypass security.

    
    <--- nice to see ya MM.

    Same to you Mr Battis.  This workin for a living is hell doncha know.
    Actually it's not.  I just wanted to see the sandbox spin on the
    plane crash.  I was watching the history channel last night (and
    james bond on TBS) and occasionally flipped over to ABC during 
    commercials.  As I expected, Jennings was pissing his pants.  I can't
    stomach that sort of entertainment anymore. 
    
    I suppose the investigators will know wether it was a bomb or not
    shortly.  The residue will give it away.  I think within 10 years
    or sooner, my .70 will not be far fetched.  A lot of loose stuff
    missing, no need to go through severe security, out in international
    water, toss the spent launcher overboard... nobody knows nothing
    except there was a big flash.  Figure for a minute, a 747 heading
    non-stop to paris, has on board about what?  300,000 pounds of
    fuel?  Were there any survivors?... gimme a break.
    
    MadMike

    
    >>Stinger missle.  Bypass security.<<
    
    You don't have to wait 10 years, someone fired a rocket at 
    a plane taking off from a British airport several years ago.
    

    No doubt while taking a long lunch.

Stinger Missle:

Maybe one of those we gave the Afganistan "freedom fighters" who in turn
gave/sold them to the Iranians and Syrians, who in turn have been passing
them out to any AK toting group with the word "Jihad" in its name.

You mean those Stinger Missles?

Missiles.  nnttm.

    re: Note 760.75 by BULEAN::BANKS
    
    That's them.  We handed 'em out like candy.  Folks get hard up
    for cash, you know.  There's probably a lot of groups that
    would drop a million or so to get their hands on something that
    don't miss.
    
    On a lighter side, I'm sure this is all BILL CLINTONS fault.  Ya,
    that's the ticket... 

    
    RE: .70  Stinger Missle
    
    I have always wondered why this stunt hasn't been pulled...
    
    I think practically speaking it would be used during takeoff 
    or in the landing pattern. I'm not a missle expert but I always
    got the impression that stingers were used against ground
    attack helicopters and aircraft.  I don't know if they can
    take a plane out at the altitudes that airliners would cross
    the ocean at..
    
    Scary thought though..
    
    -D

         There is no way that one stinger missle would be able to make a
    747 explode. 

    
    	I guess it would depend on the point of contact, yes?
    

         No, a stinger doesn't even have enough explosive force to do more
    than blow a small hole in one of the engines. And that would have to be
    a very lucky shot. 

    
    from Reuters:
    
    ABC News reports that a major Arabic newspaper received a specific
    written warning Wednesday, before a TWA plane exploded and crashed.
    The report said the warning came from the "Movement for Islamic
    Change", the same group that claimed responsibility for a November
    bombing in Saudi Arabia that kill seven people. The warning reportedly
    said the attack would occur at about the time the TWA jetliner 
    on boad exploded Wednesday night.
    
    Apparently the warning was not passed along to authorities.
    
    

    -1
    
    should read ..with 228 on board.
    
    

    The dude on MSNBC was Brian Williams for the prime time leg of the
    coverage.
    
    The initial report of the total number of TWA employees on board
    was correct; there was another complete crew riding in the
    passenger section.  They were to hook up and handle a flight out
    of Paris on a different plane.
    
    FWIW, almost the entire series of Boeing 747s were designed on
    DEC's 18-bit machines; PDP 9s & 15s. (I know because they gave a
    mock-up to one of the guys I used to work with in FS who was one
    of last FSEs to service these machines.  We used the mock-up when
    we had an open-house at IPO when the CSC first opened there).
    
    A Boeing spokesman said this particular plane was built in 1971,
    that doesn't necessarily make it unsafe.
    
    TWA has had financial problems, but so far there's been no reports
    that they were having the same maintenance problems as ValuJet.
    ValuJet was subcontracting out almost all of its maintenace; TWA
    is now an employee-owned company, I can't believe they'd sub out
    maint and put existing TWA people out of work.
    
    Mebbe I've been talking to MadMike too much, but I wouldn't be
    surprised to learn that some idjit used a SAM on it :-(
                                          

The press seems to have picked up on Mad Mike's rumour, but the experts
are saying that the plane was too far away for a Stinger, and are also
not sure a Stinger would take out a four engine aircraft.

/john

    Heard on the radio that this was definately a terrorist act. The plane
    was shot down by an anti aircraft missle. It had to be launched from 
    a boat or an island. The radio sais that sources beleive this was done
    by the same terrorists that blew up the embassy in Saudi Arabia.
    What will Slick Willy do now? Nothing? We should be striking them
    back right now.
    

Parking lot!

    sure, credit me with starting the rumor.... I've talked to the FBI 
    enough in my lifetime already.  :^)
    
    set mode/game=clue
    
    Some terrorist, not necessarily an angry arab
    did it from a boat
    with a stinger
    
    The stinger rumor will be all wild and frenzied, but the US will
    deny it.  It'll ultimately be pinned on a bomb, ya, that's the ticket.
    Couldn't be a stinger cause the range... a stinger can't go from
    long island to 13K feet 10 miles off shore... but I'll bet a stinger
    can be launched from a boat, sitting out in the ocean over a known
    traffic pattern.  A big plane, full of fuel... I think a stinger could
    bring something like that down.  It'll seek the engine exhaust, and
    the engine is connected to the wing which is loaded with fuel.
    
    This will be denied because it'll make the US look like tarts for
    giving away all those goodies and not knowing where all the stuff
    is now.  Iran Contra and all that crap revisited. 
    
    I really wonder how much we'll be hearing from that ANG Major who
    saw what looked to be "a shooting star" chasing the aircraft just
    before it exploded.  Maybe he'll "remember" seeing something different.
    
    MadMike

         Something this big can't just be covered up. I have heard that
    stinger missles are designed to deteriorate within a month or two and
    become worthless. Can anyone confirm this? 

 re earlier replies...a 25 year old airplane is quite different than a 25
 year old car (besides the obvious).  A commercial airplane goes through
 extensive checks and after x hours is essentially totally torn down and
 rebuilt.  This assumes the airline is following regulations, of course.




 Jim

	The first officer was Capt. Ralph Kevorkian.

 Is it absolutely necessary for the media to be quite so extensive in
 their coverage?  Do we have to see repeated video clips of family/friends
 of the victims arriving at the hotel or airport?  Do we really have to
 have the same reports repeated several times?

 I know this is a tragedy, and I am interested in what happened and how
 the investigation is going, but I don't wish to see the families in their
 grief.  Does each tragedy that happens in this country need to be covered
 around the clock?




 Jim

    That`s the media for you. You and I don`t want to hear it, but we must
    not be the majority. I think the general public likes to revel in other
    peoples sorrows. Look at the popularity of shows like Springer and
    Tempest. The morons in this country love that crap.
    

	Jim, did it take seeing it more than once to make you not want to see
it again? If so, it was probably shown a dozen or so times before you saw it.

...and who should we be striking back at right now? oh, them? i see.

until some solid information can be collected, your postion is a 
little weak

i heard this morning that the examination of the radar record showed
the potential surface-to-air blip to be a false blip leaving no
evidence that this was the vehicle for flight 800's demise.

...amen.

    
|   until some solid information can be collected
    
    No no no no no!  We must have the rumour du hour.  I mean, how can we
    all live without the "expert" opinions of the Gunderson-types on
    what happened to the airplane.  At least we haven't been "treated" to
    the "expert" opinions of 'box commentators that the bodies were planted
    in the water.
    
    The Globe proclaimed proudly this morning, apparently oblivious to the
    sick irony of their page one headline....
    
    Crash search widens;
    experts talk of bomb.
    
    President warns against a
    rush to judgement.
    
    								-mr. bill

                    <<< Note 760.95 by WMOIS::GIROUARD_C >>>

>i heard this morning that the examination of the radar record showed
>the potential surface-to-air blip to be a false blip leaving no
>evidence that this was the vehicle for flight 800's demise.


	Reported this morning on CNN.

	A Stinger missle has been ruled out since the Stinger does not
	have the capability of reaching the 13k+ foot altitude that the
	747 was flying at just prior to dissapearing from radar.

	Focus is now a catastrophic mechanical failure or a bomb on the
	aircraft.

	Navy divers are scheduled to start searching for the flight and
	voice recorders this morning.

Jim

    Hit back noe eh?
    
    It doesn't really bear thinking about, but after Oklahoma and the
    Unabomber, it could just as easily be home grown terrorism.  Which
    state do you want to hit?
    

Hey, MadMike, you started a whole new spelling!

FWIW, if it really was a SAM, and I were running the gov't, I'd sure be
denying the possibility that it was a SAM right now.  If they're out
looking for someone with a stinger and a motorboat, it'd be in their best
interests to make everyone believe that this is precisely not what they're
looking for.  That way, the potential guilty parties don't feel such a need
to be hiding.

    
    has it occured to anyone, that maybe, just maybe, the plane blew up
    without a bomb. Not sure how that could happen, but maybe their was no
    bomb or missle involved. 

    <-- dead man walking!

    
      No 747-100 has EVER "just blown up".
    
      TWA hasn't had a major accident in 23 years.
    
      There was no report of anything wrong before the plane left radar.
    
      Sorry, it wasn't the plane.  Something exploded on board.  Whether
     that was a bomb or missile or unsafe cargo, is not known.  The box,
     if recovered, will reveal much.
    
      bb

    Planes don't just explode.  They have some help, i.e. bomb, or
    a collision.  If there was a fire onboard, the crew would have had
    a couple seconds at least to radio "we're screwed".
    
    It might not have been a stinger, but some other type missile, or
    a bomb.
    
    My point I suppose, is we're going to get all freaked out about
    "security"; lock down everything, strip search passengers, hand inspect
    every piece of cargo 8 times... and some moron will drop a plane
    a mile or two after it leaves the airport.  So, what'll we do then?
    Have commercial airliners be equiped with chaffe?  Electronic Jamming?
    I think there is a whole new threat out there these days, and we're
    still trying to stop someone from bringing a pocket knife on board.
    
    MadMike

    >has it occured to anyone, that maybe, just maybe, the plane blew up
    >without a bomb. Not sure how that could happen, but maybe their was no
    >bomb or missle involved. 
    
     My brother, who used to work on 747s for TWA at JFK, is highly
    skeptical (to say the least) that "catastrophic engine failure,
    rupturing the fuel tanks" could have caused the fireball reported by
    eyewitnesses. My personal opinion is that chances are greater than 90%
    that an explosive device of some sort caused this tragedy. This wasn't
    a rear-ended Pinto, after all.

I was listening to talk radio last nite. Caller recommended pictures be taken
(computer technology) at gate when passenger initially boards, then that picture
accompany boarding pass throughout route. 

When the idea was proposed [to guest on program - some official of some kind)
his first response was cost would be a factor.

How much would something like that cost, and is any price too high?

    
    you're all probably right in that regard. I was just curious if it
    was possible.

that system would work fine (maybe) if it were administered globally.

if a country like, say Greece doesn't play there could easily be
opportunity for conspiracy. the bomb can be planted overseas with
a timing device. if all goes to schedule... BOOM! a plane full
people go down in the Atlantic in a fireball.

    The next "solution", if Greece or any other country has poor security,
    is to unload any plane arriving from that location and run ALL
    CARGO and people through our security system.  Any bomb planted
    onboard in Greece would theoretically be caught by our security
    systems.  And if we miss it, we can't pin the blame on lax foreign
    security.
    
    MadMike

    
    .102
    
    Colin, I have a call in to Dr. Kevorkian's office. I'm told he's seeing
    other patients, and for me to be patient. I'm sure he'll get around
    to me before BP does.

OTOH,

They did say that with the burning happening on one side of the plane, it
would be consistent with a catastrophic engine failure.

I don't think that's what happened, but it's still possible.

OTOH,

Just because it hasn't happened before doesn't mean it can't happen now. 
That argument was used with the Challenger launch.  Different
probabilities, yes, but if it's possible, then no matter how improbable,
it's still possible.

    
    >Some terrorist, not necessarily an angry arab
    >did it from a boat
    >with a stinger
    
    	Actually, my guess would have been:
    
    	Colonel Mustard
    	did it in the library
    	with a candlestick
    

    
    New reports indicates some victims survived the fall
    but died of drowning ....
    
    

    .112 Not funny. Wrong person.
    

Pretty weird that the pilot's name was Kevorkian.

re .115 first ossifer.

see .91

>    New reports indicates some victims survived the fall
>    but died of drowning ....

The rest of the story:

  Suffolk County Medical Examiner Charles Wetli said some victims showed
  evidence of drowning, which means they could have been alive when they hit
  the water. But the same victims were probably unconscious, or near death
  from the blast, he said.

  Most victims died instantly from the "massive blunt force" of the
  explosion, Wetli said. "Death literally occurred in a heartbeat."

    The Athens airport is supposedly has the most notoriously lax security. 
    My manager went to Greece last year ans was surprised by the lack of
    anyone viewing baggage contents on the x-ray machine, the lack of pat
    downs or pocket emptying when the buzzer went off on the metal
    detector, the lack of control for non-passengers from entering the
    boarding areas, the lack of.........

U.S. makes bomb-detection gear, but doesn't use it
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

(c) Copyright 1996 Nando.net
Reuters

BOSTON - Israel has them. So do Britain, Germany and Switzerland. But U.S.
airports routinely lack advanced bomb-detection equipment that is made in
the United States and has become an integral part of baggage checkpoints
elsewhere.

The Federal Aviation Administration "continues to do research, saying 'When
the perfect technology comes along we can get it,"' said John Wood,
president and chief executive officer of Thermedics Inc. of Woburn,
Massachusetts, which manufactures one such system.

"The rest of the world treats the threat (of airliner bombings) in a
different way than the U.S. does," he added.

Thermedics' EGIS system, a detection device that recognises vapours from
explosives, was developed with partial FAA funding. The system is now in use
in Israel, Germany and Switzerland. The cost is roughly $160,000 per unit.

Invision Technology, based in Foster City, California, makes the only
FAA-certified explosive detection device. Based on technology similar to
that used in medical CAT scan machines, Invision's CTX5000 units cost about
$1 million. But the firm's president, Dr. Sergio Magistri, suggested that
over the life of the product the cost was closer to $2 a passenger ticket.

The CTX5000 is in use in Brussels, London and Manchester, England, and in
Tokyo. It is also being used by Delta Air Lines in Atlanta for the Olympics
and by United Airlines in San Francisco, Magistri said.

"You may well ask why of the 20 units we have sold only three are operating
in the U.S.," Magistri said. "Outside the U.S., security is the
responsibility of government agencies. Here it is divided."

Susan Rorak, managing director of the Air Transport Association, a trade
group representing U.S. carriers, said it was not just a question of cost
but of value. "If I'm getting ready to buy a mouse trap and it's going to
cost me quite a bit of money and around the corner is a mouse trap that is
six times better, shouldn't I wait for that mouse trap?"

Congress, in response to the 1988 bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over
Lockerbie, Scotland, required the FAA to begin funding in 1990 new
technology that could detect various forms of explosive devices, certify and
deploy those devices.

Eight years later, the FAA still does not require airlines or airports to
have bomb-detection equipment and at least one financial analyst does not
expect it to do so anytime soon.

"The likelihood that the FAA will require airlines and airport authorities
in every airport to install these devices is unlikely," said Angus
Macdonald, an analyst at Fahnestock & Co who follows Thermedics. "We've
never seen this government agency take a stand."

Calls to the FAA were not immediately returned.

    If it proves to have been a bomb or missile, and if the country
    of origin is identified, then what would be the most likely response
    of the U.S.?  My guess:
    
    1.  Deplore the situation.
    2.  Condemn the act.
    3.  Declare that the "individuals" and/or "groups" (not "countries")
        responsible for this heinous act will be brought to justice.
    4.  Go home, kick their shoes off, and put their feet up.
    5.  Wait for the story to disappear from the news.
    6.  Next problem.
    
    Chris

re .-1  Yep.  Looking just like Lockerbie, no?

    
    
    	What I don't get is:
    
    	Channel 5 did a poll, asking people if they would be willing
    	to pay a measly $10 extra per ticket to have more advanced
    	security systems put in.  26% said no!  No, to a measly $10
    	in order to beef up airline security.  Stupid people.
    
    	Also, what was HIV infected blood doing on a passenger flight?
    	This was reported on Channel 5 last night as well.
    
    
    
    	And I can't even imagine how the high school students in PA
    	are feeling in reaction to losing 16 of their friends in this
    	crash.  I lost two classmates in a car accident, at the age
    	of 16, and my class had a very hard time just dealing with that.
    	The enormity of losing 16 classmates at once is overwhelming.
    
    	JJ
    

>    	Also, what was HIV infected blood doing on a passenger flight?

Lots of flights have at least one HIV+ passenger.  Said passenger contains
HIV+ blood.  Are you saying there was HIV+ blood in the cargo hold?  Passengers
are more likely to come into contact with other passengers than with cargo.

    
    	But when the plane explodes, that blood could be spread every-
    	where.  And that could infect everybody.
    

About a decade ago, when airlines seemed to hit their all-time lows for
quality of service (or lack thereof), EVERYONE had war stories for one
airline in particular (not to be named here, etc.).  These same people
would inevitably book their next flight on this same airline.  When I asked
why, the answer was always that it was cheaper.

What I took away from this is that when it comes to buying airline tickets,
people will put up with things they say are unacceptable, all in the name
of saving a couple of bucks.

I'm surprised that only 26% said no.  I am sure that if some airlines had
the advanced security (and charged the extra $10), and some didn't, the
airlines with advanced security would see a marked drop in their
non-business bookings.  One that would no doubt represent more than those
26% polled.

    >	But when the plane explodes, that blood could be spread every-
    >	where.  And that could infect everybody.
    
    Geraldo's response to that concern last night was to mumble,
    "Well, it's a pretty big ocean..."
    
    Chris

    
    
    	The way I understood it, there was HIV+ infected blood on
    	the plane, NOT in a human body on the plane.  I want to 
    	know what the purpose was of shipping HIV+ blood on a passenger
    	plane.
    

Then again, some believe, when your time is up, it's up.

Not that I subscribe to that in every circumstance, just reflecting a view.

     Complete, official list of passengers and crew aboard TWA Flight 800

     By Associated Press, 07/19/96

     Here is a complete list of the 230 people, including four cockpit crew
     members and 14 flight attendants, aboard Trans World Airlines Flight
     800, as provided by the airline, with details added by family, friends
     or officials:

     - Aikens-Bellamy, Sandra, 49, off-duty TWA employee, of St. Albans,
     N.Y.

     - Aikey, Jessica, teen-ager from Montoursville, Pa.

     - Alex, Christian

     - Alexander, Matthew, 20, a student at Wake Forest University,
     Winston-Salem, N.C., traveling to Dijon, France, to study, of Florence,
     S.C.

     - Allen, Lamar, of Marietta, Ga. (father of Ashton Allen).

     - Allen, Ashton, 15, of Marietta, Ga.

     - Amlund, Svein

     - Anderson, Jay Edward, 49, financial planner for Allmerica, of Warson
     Woods, Mo. (married to Patricia Anderson).

     - Anderson, Patricia, 42, of Warson Woods, Mo.

     - Anderson, Seana

     - Babb, David, 13, of Volant, Pa. (nephew of Clara and Namik Ersoz)

     - Baszczewski, Daniel

     - Beatty, Charles

     - Becker, Michelle

     - Bellazoug, Myriam, 30, architect, of New York City.

     - Benjamin, Arthur, of Philadelphia.

     - Benjamin, Joan

     - Berthe, Line

     - Berthe, Maurice

     - Bluestone, Nicolas

     - Bohlin, Michelle

     - Bossuyt, Luc

     - Bouhs, Leonie

     - Bower, Jordon

     - Braman, Rosie, 47, off-duty TWA employee, of Hoboken, N.J.

     - Breistroff, Michel, 25, French hockey player who graduated Harvard in
     1995.

     - Brooks, Edwin, 81, former executive vice president of Taco
     Industries, of Edgartown, Mass. (husband of Ruth Brooks)

     - Brooks, Ruth, 79, of Edgartown, Mass.

     - Buttaroni, Mirko, 26, bank employee, of Fano, Italy (married to
     Monica Omiccioli).

     - Caillaud, Anthony

     - Caillaud, Daniel

     - Callas, Dan J., 22, TWA Flight 800 crew, of Philadelphia.

     - Campbell, Richard G., 63, TWA Flight 800 flight engineer, of
     Ridgefield, Conn.

     - Carven, Jay, 9, of Bel Air, Md. (son of Paula Carven).

     - Carven, Paula, off-duty TWA flight attendant and part-time
     real-estate agent, of Bel Air, Md.

     - Cayrol, Jacques

     - Chaillou, Jenny

     - Chanson, Ludovic, 12, exchange student returning to family, of
     Garancieres, France.

     - Charbonnier, Jacques, 66, TWA flight 800 crew, of Huntington Station,
     N.Y.

     - Charbonnier, Constance, 49, TWA flight 800 crew, of Huntington
     Station, N.Y.

     - Chemtob, Monique

     - Christopher, Janet, 48, TWA flight 800 crew, of Stamford Heights, Pa.

     - Coiner, Constance, 48, associate professor of English and literature
     at State University of New York at Binghamton, of Binghamton, N.Y.
     (Anna Duarte Coiner's mother)

     - Coiner, Anna Duarte, 12, of Binghamton, N.Y.

     - Cox, Monica

     - Crandell, Pamela, 28, a first-grade teacher, of Anne Arundel County,
     Md.

     - Creamades, Daniel

     - Dadi, Marcel, 46, French musician who helped spread Chet Atkins'
     style of guitar-playing across Europe and was returning home after
     being honored at Country Music Hall of Fame in Nashville, Tenn.

     - D' Alessandro, Anna, of Palo del Colle, Italy (married to Giuseppe
     Mercurio).

     - Darley, Francois

     - Deboisredon, Cybele

     - Delange, Sylvain

     - Delouvrier, Judith, 47, a philanthropist who was a trustee of her
     family's Philadelphia-based Connelly Foundation, of Manhattan.

     - Dhuimieres, Dominiques

     - Dickey, Deborah, a French teacher, of Montoursville, Pa. (married to
     Douglas Dickey)

     - Dickey, Douglas, of Montoursville, Pa.

     - DiLuccio, Debra Collins, 47, TWA flight 800 crew, of Agropoli, Italy.

     - D'Iorio, Christine Bailey, mother of four, waitress, of Prato, Italy
     (married to Pietro D'Iorio).

     - D'Iorio, Pietro, waiter, of Prato, Italy

     - Dodge, Warren, 50, off-duty TWA employee, of Brentwood, N.H.

     - Dupont, Guy

     - Dwyer, Larkyn, 12, of New River, Ariz. was en route alone to visit
     relatives in Paris.

     - Edwards, Daryl, 41, off-duty TWA service supervisor, Jersey City,
     N.J.

     - Ellison, Marie

     - Ersoz, Clara, 59, anesthesiologist, of Pittsburgh (married to Namik
     Ersoz, aunt of David Babb).

     - Ersoz, Namik, anesthesiologist, of Pittsburgh

     - Eshleman, Dougas A., 35, off-duty TWA flight engineer, of Aurora,
     Colo.

     - Estival, Alexandre

     - Feeney, Deirdre, U.S. resident visiting family in Kilmore, Ireland
     (daughter of Vera Feeney).

     - Feeney, Vera, U.S. resident visiting family in Kilmore, Ireland

     - Ferrat (first name unavailable)

     - Foster, Rod

     - Foulon, Didier

     - Fry, Carol

     - Furlano, Rosaria

     - Gabor, Daniel, 27, of Fayetteville, Ark. and Walnut Creek, Calif.

     - Gaetke, Daniel, of Kansas City, Mo. (married to Stephanie Gaetke).

     - Gaetke, Stephanie, of Kansas City, Mo.

     - Gallagher, Claire.

     - Galland, Jean Paul.

     - Graham, Steven.

     - Gray, Charles Hank, 47, Memphis, president and chief operating
     officer of Midland Financial Group, Inc.

     - Greene, Renee.

     - Griffith, Donna.

     - Griffith, Joanne, 39, New York City.

     - Grimm, Julia.

     - Grivet, Cyril.

     - Gustin, Anne.

     - Hammer, Beverly, of Long Island, N.Y. (mother of Tracy Hammer).

     - Hammer, Tracy, of Long Island

     - Hansen, Lars Groenbakken.

     - Harkness, Eric, 23, Birchwood, Ohio.

     - Harris, Lawrence.

     - Hasanni, Dr. Ghassan, of Grosse Point Shores, Mich. (married to Nina
     Hasanni)

     - Hasanni, Nina (NOT ON TWA LIST) of Grosse Point Shores, Mich.

     - Hazelton, Sandra.

     - Hettler, Rance.

     - Hill, Susan.

     - Hocharo, Jeanpierre.

     - Hogan, David.

     - Holst, Virginia.

     - Holst, Eric.

     - Hull, James, 48, Southampton, Penn.

     - Hurd, J.

     - Ingenhuett, Lonnie, 43, Scottsdale, Ariz.

     - Jacquemot, Benoit.

     - Jensen, Susanne.

     - Johns, Courtney, 18, of Clarkston, Mich.

     - Johnsen, Arlene E., 60, Flight 800 flight attendant., of Grand
     Junction, Colo.

     - Johnson, E.

     - Johnson, Jed, New York, interior designer.

     - Johnson, L.

     - Jones, Romana.

     - Karschner, Amanda.

     - Krikhan, Margot.

     - Krukar, Andrew, 40, an engineer, Bridgewater, Conn.

     - Kwan, Barbara, 40, Scottsdale, Ariz.

     - Kwiat, Patricia

     - Kwiat, Kimberly

     - Labys, Jane, of Morgantown, W.Va.

     - Lacailledesse, Antoine

     - LaForge, Alain

     - Lamour, Yvon

     - Lang, Ray, 51, TWA flight 800 crew, North Massapequa, N.Y.

     - Lockhart, Maureen, 49, TWA flight 800 crew, Kansas City, Mo.

     - Loffredo, Elaine, 50, Glastonbury, Conn.

     - Loudenslager, Jody

     - Lohan, Britta

     - Loffredo, Eli, 42, Albuquerque, N.M.

     - Manchuelle, Francois.

     - Loo, Patricia.

     - Lucien, Dalila (niece of saxophone player Wayne Shorter, who was not
     on the flight)

     - Luevano, Eli, 42, Albuquerque, N.M.

     - Maresq, Etienne.

     - Maresq, Nicolas.

     - Martin, Betty Ruth.

     - Mazzola, Salvator, of Palermo, Italy.

     - McPherson, Pamela, 45, Atlanta.

     - Meade, Sandra, 42, TWA Flight 800 crew, Camano Island, Wash.

     - Mercurio, Giuseppe, of Palo del Colle, Italy (married to Anna
     D'Alessandro).

     - Melotin, Grace, 48, TWA Flight 800 crew, Corona, N.Y.

     - Merieux, Rodolphe.

     - Meshulam, Avishaim.

     - Michel, Pascal.

     - Miller, Amy.

     - Miller, Elizabeth.

     - Miller, Gid, 57, Sarasota, Fla.

     - Miller, Joan.

     - Miller, Kyle.

     - Miller, Robert.

     - Murta, Angela.

     - Nibert, Cheryl.

     - Notes, Gadi.

     - O'Hara, Caitlin, 13. (daughter of Janet and John O'Hara)

     - O'Hara, Janet. (married to John O'Hara)

     - O'Hara, John, 39, Emmy Award-winning executive producer of ABC
     Sports.

     - Olsen, Rebecca.

     - Omiccioli, Monica, (married to Mirko Buttaroni) of Fano, Italy.

     - Orman, Alan.

     - Paquet, Huguette.

     - Paquet, Ingrid.

     - Pares, Serge.

     - Penzer, Judy.

     - Percy, Marion.

     - Price, Dennis, of Englewood, Colo. (married to Peggy Price).

     - Price, Peggy, of Englewood, Colo.

     - Privetie, Brenda.

     - Puhlmann, Rico.

     - Puichaud, Elizabeth.

     - Remy, Jacqueline.

     - Rhein, Kirk.

     - Rhoads, Marit E., 48, TWA Flight 800 Crew, Belleville, Wash.

     - Richey, Brent.

     - Richter, Annelyse.

     - Richter, Noemie.

     - Rio, Celine.

     - Rogers, Kimberly.

     - Rojany, Yon.

     - Romangna, Barbara.

     - Rose, Katrina.

     - Rupert, Judith.

     - Schuldt, Mike, 51, TWA Flight 800 Crew, Safety Harbor, Fla.

     - Scott, Barbara.

     - Scott, Joseph.

     - Scott, Michael.

     - Shorter, Anamaria, (wife of saxophone player Wayne Shorter, who was
     not on the flight).

     - Siebert, Brenna.

     - Siebert, Chrisha.

     - Silverman, Candace.

     - Silverman, Etta.

     - Silverman, Gene.

     - Silverman, Jamie.

     - Simmons, Olivia, 50, Orange, N.J.

     - Skjold, K.

     - Story, Bill.

     - Straus, Carine.

     - Teang, Lydie

     - Teang, Rachana.

     - Thiery, Josette.

     - Tofani, Mauro.

     - Torche, Melinda, 47, TWA Flight 800, Irvine, Calif.

     - Uzupis, Larissa.

     - Vanepps, Lois.

     - Verhaeghe, R.L., 48, Goldsboro, N.C.

     - Warren, Lani, 48, Sherman Oaks, Calif.

     - Watson, Jacqueline.

     - Watson, Jill.

     - Weaver, Monica.

     - Westherby, Thomas.

     - Windmiller, Ruben.

     - Wolfson, Eleanor.

     - Wolfson, Wendy.

     - Wolters, Bonnie.

     - Yee, Judith.

     - Zara, Jean.

     - Ziemkiewicz, Jill, 24, TWA Flight 800 crew, Rutherford, N.J.

    >I want to know what the purpose was of shipping HIV+ blood on a
    >passenger plane.
    
     One would presume to send it from point A to point B.

    
      Yoiks !  Now, exploding HIV would be a serious new strain !!!
    
      bb

Judy, my point was that there's an excellent chance that there's more HIV+
blood in the passenger compartment than in the cargo hold.  When there's
a plane crash, passengers are more likely to come in contact with other
passengers' blood than with blood in the cargo hold.  HIV+ blood in the
cargo hold is a red herring.

    Not only would HIV-infected blood be a threat to passengers, but it
    also endangers the rescue workers that must now dive to recover the
    wreckage. I'm sure the experts will tell us that once the blood hits
    the salt water, it dies quickly and is not much of a threat. If this
    is the case, I'm sure these same experts will gladly put on a diving
    suit and join in the salvage operation. 
    
    This is very similar to the Valujet crash where out-dated oxegen
    generators were being shipped, in violation of FAA regs. Funny, we
    don't hear much about this anymore. 
    
    Mark

    .109
    
    > run ALL
    > CARGO and people through our security system.
    
    A bomb secured by adhesives within the cabinet in which a restroom
    refuse container is placed is very likely to remain undetected unless
    there is an explicit search of the aircraft, not just the passengers
    and luggage.  Another very good hiding place is the flush drain from an
    onboard toilet - stick your hand down, dry the interior surface of the
    "sewer" line, and fasten your bomb there, beneath the cute little door
    flap and therefore entirely out of sight.

I have not seen a single written report that there was any HIV infected
blood being transported in the cargo hold of TWA 800.

Where is this report coming from?

/john

>    onboard toilet - stick your hand down, dry the interior surface of the
>    "sewer" line, and fasten your bomb there, beneath the cute little door
>    flap and therefore entirely out of sight.

747s do not employ this sort of toilet.  The line is rougly 1.5" in diameter,
and does not have a flap.

/john

[Hmmm. Herr Binder seems quite knowledgable about these sorts of things.]

What, about sticking his hands into airline toilets?  He seems to have only
flown on much older aircraft.

/john

    
    /john too.
    
    either that or they are reading to many Clancy novels.

    Would I pay the extra $10 for security?  
    
    NO, and not because I'm cheap.  Every passenger already pays 10%
    that's ten percent of a ticket to "airline safety".
    
    Ask the tough question... WHERE'S THE MONEY GOING?
    
    Screw the polls and the slanted questions.  Most cities raid
    the airport funds (from landing fees) set up to improve the airport,
    and use the money for other things, like more cops.  Now, they want
    to raise the landing fee to cover the mismanagement.
    
    This is on top of the 10% safety surcharge.
    
    The solution is NOT to throw money at the problem.

    >Not only would HIV-infected blood be a threat to passengers, but it
    >also endangers the rescue workers that must now dive to recover the
    >wreckage. I'm sure the experts will tell us that once the blood hits
    >the salt water, it dies quickly and is not much of a threat. 
    
     The ignorance of those determined not to know the facts is stunning.

>    Not only would HIV-infected blood be a threat to passengers, but it
>    also endangers the rescue workers that must now dive to recover the
>    wreckage.

Suppose one of the passengers was HIV+.  Rescue workers handle bodies.
They're supposed to use appropriate precautions to protect them from
blood-borne infections (as are day-care workers, etc.)

    Anybody hear any more about the eyewitness who said he saw a streak of
    light flying into the plane in a trajectory similar to that which a
    meteorite might take?
    
    That was on NPR this morning, but I haven't heard anything about it
    since.  I wonder if he meant it came from above the plane and flew into
    the plane as if it were falling.  I suppose that could be a missile of
    some kind, yes?

 That was discussed earlier in here.  According to the FBI/NTSB what was
 seen on the screen was some sort of electronic noise. 



 Jim

    I mentioned that.  The source was from an Air National Guard Major.
    I would assume someone like that knows what he's looking at.
    I also noticed some big brass standing behind him while he was talking
    to the press.
    
    I also think this is why the confusion will set in.  That "blip"
    on the radar was probably not the missile, but will be used to
    discount this theory.
    
    I suppose the thing to do now is find out what the range of a 
    stinger or similar missile is, I would THINK it would be more than
    13,000 feet, which is about 2.5 miles.  
    
    MadMike

    
> - Breistroff, Michel, 25, French hockey player who graduated Harvard in
>     1995.
    
    Brief write-up on this guy in local Ottawa paper.  It seems he came
    over to Quebec to play hockey at 16, then played for a Kanata team for
    2 years before winning a full athletic schaolarship to Harvard.
    
     
    

    New rumor,
    
    Maybe it was a meteor that hit the plane.
    
    Hasn't happened before, but...........

    I did hear on the news last night several mentions of "grief
    counselors" attending to the bereaved.
    
    What exactly is a grief counselor?  Are they social workers,
    psychologists, clergy? Are they volunteers who show up, or are they
    called out by the airline?
    
    

    Along with the meteor hitting the plane, notice how the HIV deal
    got tossed in.  Anything to cloud the issue.  Plus, don't worry about
    why the plane blew up, check out this video of grief stricken 
    relatives.... the media is pathetic.  We're pathetic for allowing
    the media to act this way.
                                                          

Has anyone accounted where Hillary was at the time?

    No reason it couldn't have been a meteor.  Tis the season, or close
    to it.  I wonder what the odds would be...
    
    And is a stinger the only missle that could be used?  There are
    probably lots of different kinds of missles in the hands of all kinds
    of groups these days.

    Grief counseling is a specialty field.  The people involved can be
    clergy, social workers, psychologists, and others who are willing to
    let people unload and give some answers or at least plausable
    statements on things that have no answer.
    
    meg  

>    I suppose the thing to do now is find out what the range of a 
>    stinger or similar missile is, I would THINK it would be more than
>    13,000 feet, which is about 2.5 miles.  
    
3.5 km, or about 11,500 feet.

/john

>    What exactly is a grief counselor?  Are they social workers,
>    psychologists, clergy? Are they volunteers who show up, or are they
>    called out by the airline?

Could be a psychiatrist, psychologist, social worker, psychiatric nurse, or
just any jamoke who claims to be a grief counselor.  It helps if they've
actually had specific training or experience in the area.  AFAIK, there is
no officially licensed designation of "grief counselor," so there probably
aren't any restrictions on who can glom onto the title.

I assume those who were asked to help were licensed for something, though.

    .151 et al.
    
    > missle
    
    MISSILE
      MISSILE
        MISSILE
          MISSILE
            MISSILE
              MISSILE

    don't go ballistic, dick!

This says 4km, which is 13,100 feet, which would not hit a plane flying
at 13,500 feet unless you were extremely lucky.

BTW, my father was project manager for one of Stinger's predecessors,
Redeye.

/john

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stinger

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Stinger is a man-portable, shoulder-fired, infra-red (IR) homing (heat
seeking) air defense guided missile. The Stinger is the only forward area
air defense missile currently employed by US forces. The Stinger is designed
to counter high-speed, low-level, ground attack aircraft.

The Stinger employs a unique Rosette Scan Pattern image scanning technique
that allows it to discriminate among targets, flares, and background
clutter. The Stinger is also unique in that it possesses the Target Adaptive
Guidance (TAG) technique which biases missile orientation toward vulnerable
portions of the aircraft and assures maximized lethality. This superior
lethality is derived from hit-to-kill accuracy, high warhead lethality, and
the impact force of Stinger's kinetic energy generated by speeds of up to
Mach 2.0.

The Stinger also possesses characteristics favorable to today's force
projection Army. The Stinger is highly deployable because it is a
lightweight, self-contained air defense system that can be rapidly deployed
on many military platforms in any combat situation. The Stinger's
Fire-And-Forget ability also increases the survivability of its crew.
Stinger's Fire-And-Forget technology allows gunners and platforms to take
cover or engage new targets immediately after firing. The Stinger Missile
also has a low life-cycle cost. The Stinger is issued as a certified round
of ammunition, so it requires no field maintenance or associated logistical
costs.

The two most popular forms of the Stinger are the Manportable Air Defense
System (MANPADS) and the Standard Vehicle Mounted Launcher (SVML). The
MANPADS system weighs 34.5 pounds and consists of the missile, disposable
launch tube, detachable gripstock, and integral IFF (Identification Friend
or Foe) system. A MANPADS crew consists of a crew chief, gunner, and vehicle
carrying the basic load of missiles. The MANPADS is currently fielded by all
US forces.

The Standard Vehicle Mounted Launcher (SVML) contains four ready-to-fire
Stingers. The Army's Bradley Stinger Fighting Vehicle (BSFV) provides a
highly lethal weapons system that utilizes the SVML. The Bradley Stinger
Fighting Vehicle provides the maneuver force with a potent air defense
weapon to augment the combined arms team.

The Stinger Missile System has been proven in combat in both Afghanistan,
and in the Persian Gulf. In Afghanistan the basic Stinger downed over 270
Soviet aircraft (a 79% combat success rate), and helped to stop air assault
operations and force Soviet withdrawal. Current Stinger enhancements are
underway to ensure the Stinger's ability to defeat any enemy threat well
into the next century.

Stinger Missile Specifications

                           Specifications

 Guidance                    Passive IR/UV Homing - Fire and Forget
 Navigation                  Proportional with Lead Bias
 Speed                       Supersonic
 Weight                      23.0 lbs
 Diameter                    2.75 inches
 Length                      60 inches
 Range                       4 kilometers
 Identification Friend or FoeCompatible with US/NATO Equipment
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Prepared by Cadet Bryan Cofer condensed from: Stinger: Family of Weapons
Systems, by the Hughes Missile Systems Company.

Note the "ceiling: 10,0000 feet"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 [United State Marine Corps Fact File]

Stinger Weapons System: RMP & Basic

Primary function: To provide close-in, surface-to-air weapons for the
defense of forward combat areas, vital areas and installations against low
altitude air attacks.
Manufacturer: General Dynamics /Raytheon Corporation
Propulsion: Dual thrust solid fuel rocket motor
Length: 5 feet (1.5 meters)
Width: 5.5 inches (13.96 centimeters)
Weight: 12.5 pounds (5.68 kilograms)
Weight fully armed: 34.5 pounds (15.66 kg)
Maximum system span: 3.6 inches (9.14 cm)
Range: 1 to 8 kilometers
Sight ring: 10 mils
Fuzing: Penetration, impact, self destruct
Ceiling: 10,000 feet (3.046 kilometers)
Speed: Supersonic in flight
Units: Low-Altitude Air Defense (LAAD) Battalions: 3 active duty, 2 reserve
Crew: 2 enlisted
Guidance system: Fire-and-forget passive infrared seeker
Warheads: High explosive
Rate of fire: 1 missile every 3 to 7 seconds
Type of fire: "Fire-and-Forget" (See Features below)
Sensors: Passive infrared
Introduction date: 1987
Unit Replacement Cost: $38,000

Mission: Provide close-in surface to air weapons fire for the defense of
forward combat areas, vital areas, and installations against low altitude
air attacks.

Features: The Stinger is a man-portable, shoulder-fired guided missile
system which enables the Marine to effectively engage low-altitude jet,
propeller-driven and helicopter aircraft. Developed by the United States
Army Missile Command, the Stinger was the successor to the Redeye Weapon
System. The system is a "fire-and-forget" weapon employing a passive
infrared seeker and proportional navigation system. Stinger also is designed
for the threat beyond the 1990s, with an all-aspect engagement capability,
and IFF (Identification-Friend-or-Foe), improved range and maneuverability,
and significant countermeasures immunity. The missile, packaged within its
disposable launch tube, is delivered as a certified round, requiring no
field testing or direct support maintenance. A separable, reusable gripstock
is attached to the round prior to use and may be used again. STINGER will
also be employed by the Pedestal-Mounted Stinger Air Defense Vehicle and the
Light Armored Vehicle, Air Defense Variant (LAV-AD) duri
ng the 1990s.
Inventory: 13,431 missiles

Background: During the 1960s the Marine Corps introduced its first
lightweight shoulder fired surface-to-air missile, the Redeye. During June
1966 the Redeye school was activated at Marine Corps Base, 29 Palms
California. By Sept. 1966, a Redeye platoon was placed in each stateside
Marine division. This gave Marine commanders a viable air-defense capability
that could be deployed to any area of the battlefield.
The Redeye missile served throughout the 1970's before giving way to the
more technologically advanced Stinger missile in 1982. The Stingers "all
aspect" engagement capability was a major improvement over the Redeye. In
1989 an improved Stinger, equipped with a reprogrammable microprocessor
(RPM), was fielded by the Marine Corps. The RPM is a modular enhancement
which allows the Stinger to engage and destroy more sophisticated air
threats.

POC: Headquarters Marine Corps, Division of Public Affairs, 2 Navy Annex,
Washington, DC 20380-1775; (703) 614-1492.

Date last modified: 11/30/95

Q:

Is the range the total flight distance, or the effective radius of initial
sighting from which it can hit things?  The latter might imply chasing
things outside of the four miles.

Q2:

What's the latest Ruskie equivalent do?  Or, are we talkin' something as
unwieldy as a shoulder mounted SCUD here?  (conjures pictures of Al
Franken's "Helmet Satellite Link.")

BTW, I suspect TWA is hoping against hope that it's proven to be a missile
(generic term including meteors), because that would absolve them from any
lawsuits and guarantee full insurance payout for a machine that was to be
replaced over the next couple of years anyway.

PA 103 was the end of Pan Am, in large measure due to litigation.

/john

    Actually, wouldn't it be a meteorite?
    

A meteorite is a meteor which reaches the surface of the earth without being
completely vaporized.

If a terrorist group "claims" they did this for whatever cause, and if its 
indeed true, then they LOSE big time. 

All the international condemnation, loss of sympathy and support, and
determined increased tougher actions against them by the affected nation[US]. 
The single most incident which helped India in curbing Sikh terrorist in Punjab 
was the Air-India 747 bombing off the coast of Ireland. Almost overnight they 
lost the sympathy and support of Canada and Britain. Their downfall started 
when the plane went down.

On the other hand if the terrorists remain silent and don't take credit to
this incident then they just don't GAIN anything.

	So either way they get to lose. In the 90s, bombing planes will only
backfire just as the highjackings have lost their charm.

/Jay

So, you can only be hit by a meteorite if it bounces or someone picks it up
and throws it at you.

On the way down, it's still a meteor.

/john

In case the explosion does indeed prove to have been caused by a bomb
planted on the aircraft, then the articles that I've attached here may
be of interest.  They involve the development (with your tax dollars and
mine) and deployment of a sensitive, fast and effective explosives detection
device called EGIS, developed and manufactured right here in Massachusetts
by Thermedics Detection, whose president has been interviewed by the media
several times in the last couple of days for obvious reasons.

EGIS is deployed in airports all over the world... except in the U.S.A.,
of course.  Why?  After all, we did pay in large part for its development.
And we continue to pay for its delivery and installation all over the world,
most recently by Bill Clinton in an unusually decisive and rapid response to
terrorist acts in a foreign country only a few months ago (see the last of
three attached articles).

Will Bill Clinton be as eager to insist on the delivery and installation
of EGIS systems in American airports as well, if this latest terrorist act
on U.S. territory proves to involve a detectable and possibly-preventable
bomb?

===============================================================================

THERMEDICS DETECTION RECEIVES ORDER TO COMPLETE DEPLOYMENT OF EGIS
EXPLOSIVES DETECTORS IN GERMANY

    WOBURN, Mass., April 24 /PRNewswire/ -- Thermedics Inc. (AMEX: TMD)
announced that its Thermedics Detection Inc. subsidiary has received an
additional order for two EGIS(R) bomb detectors that completes the
original deployment of these units to Germany, initiated in 1991.
Shipment of this order will bring the total number of systems deployed
to German airports to 50.  EGIS offers highly advanced technology for
detecting trace levels of a wide spectrum of military and commercial
explosives.
    "The extensive deployment of our systems in Germany -- our biggest
EGIS customer -- signifies the high level of security in airports
throughout that country.  With widespread use overseas, we have by far
the largest installed base of systems to provide trace detection of
explosives in airports," said Jeff Langan, newly appointed president of
Thermedics Detection.  "Our systems are installed in 40 overseas
airports, and are enhancing security in 21 countries, including Germany,
Israel, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom."
    Thermedics Detection first developed EGIS in 1986 with funding from
the U.S. Department of State and other government agencies for the
specific purpose of detecting and identifying explosives used in car
bombings, following the attack on the U.S. Embassy in Beirut.  The EGIS
system has successfully proven its ability to detect unique chemical
identifiers, also known as taggants.  These identifiers were first
adopted two years ago under an international treaty. The antiterrorism
legislation approved by Congress last week mandates the use of taggants
in the manufacture of plastic explosives.
    This March, EGIS units were flown to Israel, following President
Clinton's announcement that the U.S. would provide technical aid and
training to show support for the Middle East peace process.  EGIS
systems were first deployed to Israel in 1991, and several were
installed at border crossings a year ago.
    Thermedics develops, manufactures, and markets product quality
assurance systems, precision-weighing and inspection equipment,
electrochemistry and microweighing products, electronic test
instruments, and explosives-detection devices, as well as implantable
heart-assist devices and other biomedical products.  Thermedics is a
public subsidiary of Thermo Electron Corporation (NYSE: TMO).


===============================================================================

THERMEDICS EGIS BOMB DETECTORS DEPLOYED TO ISRAEL

    WOBURN, Mass., March 6 /PRNewswire/ -- Thermedics Detection Inc., a
wholly owned subsidiary of Thermedics Inc. (AMEX: TMD), has supplied the
U.S. government with EGIS(R) explosives-detection systems to provide
counterterrorism support in Israel.  President Clinton announced
yesterday that the U.S. would send bomb-detection equipment and
technical aid and training to show U.S. support for Israel and the
Middle East peace process. EGIS offers a highly advanced, on-site system
for detecting trace levels of explosives in less than one minute.
    "The recent bombings are tragic reminders of Israel's need for the
highest level of security.  We hope that our EGIS systems will help to
prevent future tragedies as the U.S. and Israel work together to combat
terrorism in the Middle East," said John W. Wood Jr., president and
chief executive officer of Thermedics.
    EGIS was developed in 1986 with funding from the U.S. Department of
State and other government agencies for the specific purpose of
detecting and identifying explosives used in car bombings, following the
attack on the U.S. Embassy in Beirut.  EGIS units were first deployed to
Israel in 1991, and several were installed at border crossings a year
ago, following a multi-year test program sponsored by the Israel
Airports Authority.  To date, the system is installed in 40 airports
overseas and in use in 21 countries, including Germany, Switzerland,
Israel, and the United Kingdom.
    Thermedics develops, manufactures, and markets product quality
assurance systems, precision weighing and inspection equipment,
electrochemistry and microweighing products, electronic test
instruments, and explosives-detection devices, as well as implantable
heart-assist devices and other biomedical products.  Thermedics is a
public subsidiary of Thermo Electron Corporation (NYSE: TMO).
    NOTE: Thermo Electron's latest news releases are available at no
charge by dialing 800-758-5804, ext. 877850, or at
http://www.prnewswire.com on the Internet.

===============================================================================

     US sends Israel bomb-detection gear

     By Paul Quinn-Judge, Globe Staff, 03/06/96

     WASHINGTON - A first shipment of bomb-detection equipment left Hanscom
     Field for Israel yesterday morning as the White House rushed to signal
     its support for Prime Minister Shimon Peres and the Middle East peace
     process in the wake of four terrorist bombings.

     President Clinton said the aid was intended to ``support the fight
     against future terrorist attacks, to bring killers to justice and to
     rally support for peace in the Middle East.'' More would be on the way
     soon, he added.

     In a separate statement to the Israeli people, made later yesterday,
     Clinton also stressed the need not to abandon the peace process.

     ``The road ahead will not be easy, but think how far you have come,''
     he said. ``Bullets and bombs must not prevail against the will for
     peace, and they will not.''

     The White House refused to provide any details of yesterday's shipment
     to Israel, other than saying that it had been hastily assembled
     overnight by the CIA. Sources, however, said the bulk of the shipment
     consisted of extremely sensitive explosive sensing systems built by
     Thermedics Inc. of Woburn.

     The equipment, said by Pentagon sources to consist of eight units, was
     pulled out of Thermedics' stores after ``a flurry of overnight calls''
     from the government, the company's president, John Wood, said in a
     telephone interview.

     Officials in Washington say the devices, which cost $200,000 each, were
     probably paid out of CIA director John Deutch's contingency funds.

     Other equipment is in the pipeline. Israel is reported to have
     presented what one official called a ``wish list'' to the US government
     late Monday night, about 12 hours after the latest suicide bomber
     killed 13 people in Tel Aviv. Israel has also reportedly asked for
     other types of detection devices, as well as fixed and mobile X-ray
     machines to examine large and small parcels.

     In addition to ``highly sophisticated detection equipment,'' Clinton
     said, US specialists would be sent to work with both the Israelis and
     the Palestinians. Some specialists would help strengthen antiterrorism
     measures. Others, he said, would provide training, technical assistance
     and more equipment, with the aim of improving ``antiterrorism
     cooperation among Israel, the Palestinians and other governments in the
     region.''

     Defense officials expressed doubts, however, that the United States
     could provide Israel with much intelligence on the Islamic Resistance
     Movement, Hamas, which has been linked to the bombings.

     ``I suspect that we get much of what we know about Hamas from Israel,''
     a senior official said.

     Hamas is said to be funded by Iran and by sympathizers in the Gulf
     States and the United States. It operates from Jordan, Gaza and parts
     of Israel.

     The series of attacks that have killed at least 57 people and left
     about 200 more wounded have all apparently been the work of Hamas.

     In addition to the demoralizing death toll, the bombs have inflicted
     serious political damage on Peres and Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian
     leader. The stated US willingness to improve counterterrorism
     cooperation between Israel and the Palestinians appears designed to
     underline Washington's continued support for both men and the peace
     process they have espoused.

     But US officials from Secretary of State Warren M. Christopher on down
     also made it clear that Washington would support any measures the
     Israelis might take to retaliate.

     Speaking on Capitol Hill yesterday, Senate Majority Leader Bob Dole of
     Kansas expressed support for Israel but skepticism about the
     Palestinians. ``Unless and until Arafat does more to crack down on
     terrorism,'' Dole said, ``there might be an effort by some to cut off
     aid to the Palestinian Authority.''

     The sensing equipment sent to Israel yesterday consists of a small
     container about the size of a foot locker, with an attached, hand-held
     device. The system, known as Egis, takes air samples and then analyzes
     whether any explosives are present, and if so what type and how much.

     The Thermedics president said the machines were capable of detecting
     dynamite, TNT and its derivatives as well as plastic explosives like
     the US-made C-4 or Czech-made Semtex. The machines were developed in
     the mid-1980s with support from the State Department and the Federal
     Aviation Administration, and are now in use in a number of airports
     worldwide. Thermedics shipped the first machines to Israel in 1991; at
     least 10 are in use there.

     This story ran on page 5 of the Boston Globe on 03/06/96.

Hem and haw:

AP Headline:

	Top safety official leans toward possibility of
	criminal act in TWA crash

Quotes:

"The possibility of a criminal act is a distinct one," Robert Francis,
 vice chairman of the NTSB, told CNN.

But appearing earlier on the NBC "Today" show, Francis said "there's no
evidence of a crime yet."

    .164
    
    > On the way down, it's still a meteor.
    
    Wrong.  A meteor is the visible trail left in the atmosphere by a
    meteoroid.  A meteorite is a meteoroid that has reached the surface.

    
    	re: .135  John
    
    	As I stated in my earlier reply, I saw it on the 11:00 news
    	last night, on channel 5.
    

>    Wrong.  A meteor is the visible trail left in the atmosphere by a
>    meteoroid.  A meteorite is a meteoroid that has reached the surface.

Let's just call them "space rocks."

G.C. Merriam-Webster

Meteor:

1  : an atmospheric phenomenon (as lightning or a snowfall)
2 a  : any of the small particles of matter in the solar system that are
     directly observable only by their incandescence from frictional heating
     on entry into the atmosphere
  b  : the streak of light produced by the passage of a meteor

    
    oh, quit trying to out do each other. a meteor didn't hit the plane.

    
>    oh, quit trying to out do each other. a meteor didn't hit the plane.


     Meteorite

Report from Paris (edited)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reuter

PARIS (7-19-96) - TWA spokesman Gilbert Dennemont described as "pure
speculation" French media reports which said investigators were
increasingly convinced the plane was victim of a terror attack, possibly
downed by a surface-to-air missile fired from the American coast or from a
ship at sea.

He was pressed with questions about TWA's security measures which he
declined to answer except to say, "TWA will never compromise on security. We
would rather delay a flight rather than waive any security requirements."

He said TWA's security was initially handled by an Israeli firm. It was now
in the hands of an American company specially set up for the purpose and
trained by Israelis who have a long record of tight airline security
measures.

He said the crash had apparently had no impact on bookings. Of three
scheduled flights from Paris Thursday, one was full and two others on
wide-bodied jets each had about 10 seats free.

> However, they also said, "If this was a criminal act, we will find the
> cowards who did this."
  *******

See 760.120, Step 3.  I have a feeling I'll be saying this a lot in the
days and weeks ahead.

Chris

Well, of course.

After all, who's in jail for bringing down PA 103?

/john

Naw.  Maybe you'll get to say "Step 4," too.

Ahah!

I thought that TWA 800 was the Tel Aviv flight.  Now it's beginning to make
some sense.  This attack was possibly planned by someone who was unaware of
the schedule change:

Israeli terror experts reportedly seeking TWA crash link
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

(c) Copyright Nando.net

Reuters

JERUSALEM - Israeli terrorism experts are looking for possible links between
Muslim militants and the explosion of TWA flight 800, the newspaper Haaretz
said on Friday.

In its top story the Israeli newspaper quoted an unidentified senior
security source as saying Israel was helping U.S. intelligence agencies and
the FBI in every way it could in their investigation of Wednesday's crash.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office declined comment on the report.
But Israeli security sources told Reuters that Israel routinely cooperates
on such matters with the United States, its closest ally.

"Israel is checking whether there is any sort of connection between the
explosion to Islamic terror organisations," the newspaper reported.

In the United States, officials battled speculation that sabotage caused the
Boeing 747 to burst into a ball of fire and crash with 230 passengers into
the Atlantic Ocean shortly after it took off from New York for Paris.

TWA said flight 800 used to go on from Paris to Tel Aviv, but the Israel leg
was discontinued in January. Israel Radio said two Israelis were among the
passengers killed. A breakdown of the passengers' nationalities released by
TWA contained no Israelis.

Israeli officials have not drawn any connection between the air disaster,
one of the worst in U.S. history, and the Arab-Israeli conflict. They say
they have yet to determine whether it was an accident or an attack.

"We still don't know if this is an attack," Israeli Brigadier-General Yigal
Pressler, Netanyahu's adviser on counter-terrorism, told Israel Radio. But
he cited previous attempts he said involved Iran, Syria and Libya.

He said some airports and airlines were not as diligent as Israelis in
conducting security checks.

In Paris, TWA spokesman Gilbert Dennemont told reporters that TWA's security
was initially handled by an Israeli firm. It was now in the hands of an
American company specially set up for the purpose and trained by Israelis
who had a long record of tight airline security measures.

Dennemont described as "pure speculation" French media reports which said
investigators were increasingly convinced the plane was the target of an
attack, possibly downed by a surface-to-air missile fired from the American
coast or from a ship at sea.

The senior security source told Haaretz that sabotage could only be
ascertained once all of the debris was collected.

The source cited unspecified recent warnings of a possible attack on a plane
and said: "All the signs point to a bomb having been planted on the plane."

>    someone just told me that CNN is reporting that shortly the FBI will
>    announce evidence of a bomb. ...

During a briefing _just_this_minute_concluded_, the FBI just said that they
were not yet prepared to take this over as a criminal investigation yet.

However, they also said, "If this was a criminal act, we will find the
cowards who did this."

Apparently the earlier CNN report was the result of some lower level FBI
person (anonymous, of course) who believed he had enough evidence of a
bomb, but his bosses aren't quite ready to take over and let the NTSB go
home.

/john

What 800 used to do was alternate between Tel Aviv and Cairo,
and I flew on the Paris to Cairo leg on 21 Nov 92, and the
Tel Aviv to Paris return (TW 803) on 2 Dec 92.

Now we have the Middle Eastern link.

/john

/john, do you really think a terrorist planting a bomb wouldn't know the
current flight schedule?

Dunno.  Some of them don't know to use an alias when renting a truck.

Yes.  Like I said, it may have been planned before the schedule change.

And in any case, TWA uses multiple flight numbers on their flights;
TW 800 from JFK to CDG to CAI used the same aircraft from CDG to CAI
as TW 840 from IAD to CDG to CAI.

/john

 Didn't flight 800 originate elsewhere in the US as a different aircraft
 type?



 Jim

Yes, Flight 800 originated in LA.  The aircraft that was used for flight
800 from NY to Paris had just arrived from Athens.  Who knows what the
flight number was when it left Athens?

Yes.  Los Angeles.

It's sort of a scam to save ticketing costs; there's only one ticket
issued even if there may be one or two plane changes.

At check-in you're issued boarding passes for each segment, which is
when you find out that your trip is more complicated than you thought.

/john

        <<< Note 760.127 by DECWIN::JUDY "That's *Ms. Bitch* to you!" >>>

    
>    	The way I understood it, there was HIV+ infected blood on
>    	the plane, NOT in a human body on the plane.  I want to 
>    	know what the purpose was of shipping HIV+ blood on a passenger
>    	plane.
 

	It's called "air cargo". Such cargo is regularly carried on passenger
	planes.

	Next to the US, the most advanced lab working on an AIDS cure is 
	the Pasteur Institute (in fact they were the first to ID the virus).   

Jim

re .187

TW 881 ATH 12:30p JFK 3:50p

/john

If you survived the initial fireball and the several-thousand foot plunge,
and if you didn't get infected by the blood of a fellow passenger, wouldn't
it be ironic if you got infected by the pint of HIV+ blood in the cargo hold?

  <<< Note 760.151 by RUSURE::GOODWIN "we upped our standards now up yours" >>>

    
>    And is a stinger the only missle that could be used?  There are
>    probably lots of different kinds of missles in the hands of all kinds
>    of groups these days.


	The Stinger is mentioned because there are a bunch of them out
	there (your tax dollars at work) and it is the most advanced
	"man-portable" anti-aircraft missle. There are LOTS of other
	anti-aircraft missles, most of which have the range capability
	needed. However they also need much more sophisticated launch
	facilities (IE. a Patriot missle batter or an Aegis cruiser).

Jim

re .192:

See .155.  I thank you.

    Has a definite altitude at the time of the explosion been established?
    I've heard (approximately) 13,000 feet, 10,000 feet, and 8,000 feet.
    In one report, people aboard the small plane(s) that witnessed the
    explosion claimed that the 747 was slightly below them in altitude,
    and that the small planes themselves were at around 8,000 feet.
    
    Chris

    So could a missle have been fired from one of the small planes that
    were around?
    

 I heard some talking head say last night that the airplane was at 13000
 feet, however began to descend and the explosion occured at ~8500ft.



 Jim

Prolly a papist flung a missal at the plane.

    this just in: no survivors have been found.

 > I heard some talking head say last night that the airplane was at 13000
 > feet, however began to descend and the explosion occured at ~8500ft.
    
    Really?... Why would it begin to descend?  Shouldn't it be ascending?
    
    
    re: Stinger missile
    
    Q: What's the difference between a Stinger and a Springer?
    
    A: One has hot flaming exhaust coming out of an opening at one end,
       and the other one is a missile.
    
    Chris

> > I heard some talking head say last night that the airplane was at 13000
> > feet, however began to descend and the explosion occured at ~8500ft.
    
 >   Really?... Why would it begin to descend?  Shouldn't it be ascending?
    
    
  
   I think he was on the mechanical/structure catostrophic failure side
   of the field, hypothesizing that the failure occured and the plane
   began to descend as a result and then the catostrophic part kicked in.



 Jim

 Springer is a talk show host?

>    this just in: no survivors have been found.

Prolly the HIV+ blood in the cargo hold did them in.

   occurred
   catastrophic


   do not even consider thanking me

Wednesday night, a few hours after the incident, CNN was reporting that a 
C-130 was doing exercises in the area, shooting flares and whatever else, 
in the same area and at the same time TWA800 passed through.  I have not 
heard this repeated since then.  Has anyone else?  Could a half-spent flare 
bring a 747 down?

-- Jim

>Could a half-spent flare bring a 747 down?

Not a chance.

/john

         Saw the spokesman for the FBI's anti-terrorist task force on CNN
    last night. He seemed to be particularly squirrelly regarded the
    SAM issue. Almost like he was trying to evade the questions, or to
    cover something up. 

            <<< Note 760.194 by DECWIN::RALTO "Jail to the Chief" >>>

>    Has a definite altitude at the time of the explosion been established?
>    I've heard (approximately) 13,000 feet, 10,000 feet, and 8,000 feet.

	According the the altitude reporting radar, 13,700 feet.

Jim

 re .204


 if that is the same c-130 I heard about, the pilots said they were ~14 miles
 away and several thousand feet below the TWA aircraft.




 According to reports tonight, less than 1% of the wreckage has been recovered
 



 Jim

From news reports:

CBS reported that a Lebanese man on a list of people with connections to 
terrorist organizations was supposed to be on board the doomed plane when 
it left Athens for New York, but missed the flight.

In a similar report, The Times of London quoted an unnamed State Department 
official as saying a "known Arab terrorist" was allowed to board TWA flight 
800 at Athens, although he was escorted off the plane before it took off.

State Department spokeswoman Elaine McDevitt said it was "the first we've 
heard" of any of the reports, and couldn't confirm them.

Another report suggested a link to Ramzi Yousef, who is on trial in New 
York federal court, accused of plotting to blow up 12 West Coast-bound 
airliners in a single day in 1995.  Unidentified sources quoted Friday by 
ABC News said a group tied to Yousef contacted a federal agency and claimed 
responsibility.  The FBI, the State Department and the Justice Department 
could not confirm that report.

Yousef, 29, who claims innocence and is representing himself at trial, is 
accused of being the mastermind of the February 1993 World Trade Center 
blast as well.

A more macabre theory suggested during ABC's "Nightline" program is that an 
explosive could have been planted in a cooler in which an organ for 
transplant was carried.  Flight 800 was said to have carried a cooler that 
arrived at the ticket counter at the last minute.  Coolers with such organs 
are not traditionally run through X-ray machines and usually are put in the 
cockpit, ABC said.

July 21 1996, London Sunday Times

                  Motives and means point to Middle East

As the likelihood of sabotage on board flight 800 increased this weekend, 
American intelligence experts were questioning their sources in the Middle 
East, home to organisations with both the motive and the technical 
capability to mount such an attack.

The search will not be easy.  Those who might have carried it out live 
underground, suspicious of all comers, communicating only to a few.  Their 
havens are countries such as Iran, Sudan and Afghanistan, almost 
impenetrable to Americans.  "If it is a terrorist act we then have the 
challenge of finding the cowards who carried it out," said Jim Kallstrom, 
the FBI agent in charge of New York's anti-terrorism taskforce.

Many such attacks are never claimed by those who organised them.  Nobody 
ever claimed responsibility for bringing down Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie in 
1988.  The most likely explanation for that bombing is that Iran paid 
intermediaries to blow up an American plane in retaliation for the 
accidental shooting down by the United States of an Iran Air passenger jet.

There will be a hint of a trail this time, however.  Should the explosion 
be found to have been caused by a bomb, the culprit is almost certain to be 
an organisation rather than an individual.  A sophisticated network is 
needed to plan, obtain documentation and explosives, build a bomb, and get 
the device aboard a plane.  Suspicion has focused on the Middle East with 
good reason.  TWA is a long established American airline, seen in the 
Middle East as a symbol of the United States.  The timing of the attack, if 
it was one, was symbolic as well: on the eve of the Olympic Games in 
Atlanta.

Middle Eastern terrorist groups are virulently opposed to American policies 
in the region, both for US support for Israel and for what they see as its 
opposition to Islam.  Unlike the 1970s, when those who hijacked and bombed 
were secular nationalists, Middle Eastern terrorism is now linked to 
militant Islamic fundamentalism.  Its adherents see their acts as blows 
struck in a jihad, or holy war.

The specific aims of the different groups depend on their origin.  One 
group that must be considered a prime suspect is called the Movement for 
Islamic Change.  This is thought to be a flag of convenience for a loosely 
connected network of fundamentalist Saudis who oppose the basing of 
American troops on "holy" Saudi soil and seek to replace the Al-Saud family 
with a government that would adhere more strictly to Islamic law.

The name was first heard when the Movement for Islamic Change claimed 
responsibility for an attack on the American-run military training centre 
in Riyadh in November.  Five Americans and two Indians were killed.  When 
four young Saudi men were beheaded for their part in the attack, the group 
vowed revenge.  The June 25 bombing of Dhahran military barracks, in which 
19 American soldiers were killed and more than 350 injured, is thought to 
have been in retaliation for the execution of the four bombers.

It will be difficult to track down who is behind the Movement for Islamic 
Change.  There is no hierarchical structure.  The best-known supporter is 
Omar Bin Laden, an exiled Saudi from a wealthy family who took up arms 
against the regime.  He recently left Sudan for a remote mountain village 
in Afghanistan.  In a recent interview he warned that American interests 
would be attacked if US troops did not leave Saudi Arabia.  The name of the 
Movement for Islamic Change emerged seven hours before the crash of Flight 
800 in a statement, neatly typed in Arabic on a computer, that slipped out 
of the fax machine at the London office of Al-Hayat, the Arabic newspaper.  
There was no indication of where it had been sent from.

It threatened an attack on an American target if the US "invaders" did not 
leave Saudi Arabia.  In retrospect, the words were chillng.

"The Mujaheddin [Islamic fighters] will make a very heavy response to the 
threats of the stupid American president," the statement read.  "The 
invaders must prepare to leave, dead or alive.  The deadline date is 
tomorrow, and tomorrow is very near."

Suspicion has also fallen on Hamas, the organisation of Islamic 
fundamentalist Palestinians who oppose Israel and hence American backing 
for the Jewish state.  The organisation has technical expertise and has 
shown by its use of suicide bombers against Israeli targets that it has the 
will.  Hamas opposes the agreement between Israel and the Palestinian 
authority led by Yasser Arafat, which recognised Israel's existence and 
returned the West Bank and Gaza to Palestinian control.  Hamas has launched 
a jihad that it says will continue until all the land of the British 
mandate Palestine is liberated.

Although Hamas has never attacked an American target, Mousa Abu Marzouk, 
its charismatic leader, is in prison in New York.  Hamas issued a statement 
threatening revenge if Abu Marzouk, arrested on arrival in New York last 
year under a law banning people with ties to terrorist activities, was 
extradited to Israel.  The extradition appears imminent and could be the 
reason for the timing of any attack on an American target.

Others who must come under suspicion are supporters of Sheikh Omar 
Abdel-Rahman, the blind Islamic cleric serving a life sentence in New York 
for his involvement in plotting the bombing of the World Trade Center.  In 
a speech before sentencing, he attacked America for "waging a war against 
Islam".

    
    I don't understand why it's taking the searchers so long to identify a
    large chunk of something detected on the ocean floor this morning. The
    'something' was detected by sonar. According to the spokesperson on CNN
    there is a systematic procedure: first, find it with sonar, then view
    it with underwater cameras, then send divers down.
    
    It seems to me that divers would have been in there as soon as the
    sonar detected something. The water is only 100-120 feet deep, and the
    weather conditions today are relatively calm.
    
    John

French reporters slip by New York airport checks
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

(c) Copyright the News & Observer Publishing Co.
(c) Reuters

PARIS (July 21, 1996) - A French radio reporter said on Sunday he and a
colleague exposed security gaps at New York's Kennedy airport by slipping
past guards into a departure lounge three days after a Paris-bound TWA jet
exploded after takeoff.

"We weren't checked. If we'd been carrying a bomb, we could have given it to
an accomplice boarding the plane," the France Info reporter told the radio.

He said he and a reporter from Radio France Internationale (RFI), without
tickets and eluding security, got into the TWA departure lounge at Kennedy
airport from which the doomed flight took off.

All 230 people aboard TWA flight 800 from New York to Paris died on
Wednesday when the plane exploded in a fireball over the Atlantic just after
takeoff. Investigators hint they believe a bomb caused the crash but say it
is too early to be sure.

The reporter said the two, at the airport on Saturday to meet relatives of
French victims arriving from Paris, got in by walking against the flow of
passengers leaving the terminal.

Whenever they came to a closed door, they waited for passengers to emerge
and then slipped past, eventually reaching gate 25 where passengers were
boarding a flight bound for Puerto Rico. The reporter said they took
photographs to prove the story.

France Info and RFI are publicly-run stations.

France Info also said that the number of French citizens among the dead had
been revised up to 45 from 42 initially listed, according to the French
consulate in New York.

    
    I have been constantly appalled at the security in ANY domestic
    airport; security-related technology notwithstanding. Have you 
    noticed the caliber of the so-called security personnel manning
    the checkpoints? They behave nonchalantly and they do (pardon me
    if this sounds harsh) work like non-educated labor force one would
    usually find in janotorial services, for example. 
    
    In SFO, I have come across a few who don't speak English; others 
    who hardly even looked at the xray screen as my baggage went across, 
    and who, by and large, do not inspire any safety confidence that 
    they know want they are doing. They're are mostly bored and indifferent. 
    Granted some liked the "power" bestowed the uniform, but hey, that's 
    Ok if they are really their job.
    
    So for such a critical "front-line" job, should the workers be
    paid minimum wage (their behaviour certainly suggested it)??
    Certainly this is one weak link in security measures that defeats
    whatever technology already put in place.
    
    The other "check the box" item that is a joke are the inquiries
    "Did any stranger hand you anything to carry" and "Did you pack
    your own bags and these bags have been in your possession at all
    times"... get real! Would a bogeyman answer NO to any of these
    questions?? For PR purposes I guess these inquiries may serve
    some comforting purposes, but it is pretty stupid in my opinion.
    
    
    

    
    
>    So for such a critical "front-line" job, should the workers be
>    paid minimum wage
    
    	Seems to be par-for-course. Check out EMT positions sometime. $7hr
    to expose yourself to all kinds of nasty diseases, weapons carrying
    druggies, etc....
    
    jim 

Divers Wait as Devices Scan Ocean

By Jerry Markon, Bill Bleyer and Al Baker
Staff Writers, Newsday.

In the early stages of combing the ocean floor for wreckage of TWA Flight
800, one thing is becoming clear: the machines rule.

Navy divers had been sitting in the Coast Guard command center, kept away
from the crash site until a boat trip there yesterday afternoon.

Even then, they didn't get in the water, and probably won't for several
more days, federal officials said.

The key players instead have been an underwater sonar that looks like a
sled; a self-propelled robot bearing video cameras, and a tube-shaped
device that has been listening for a pinging from the ocean bottom.

They're all part of what federal authorities say is a plan designed first
to find the plane's crucial two ``black boxes'' - and only then bring the
wreckage and more than 100 additional bodies up from the ocean floor. The
Navy began the second stage yesterday, abandoning the pinging device in
favor of the underwater sonar.

Some private salvagers are skeptical of the process.

``They should be down there diving,'' said Capt. Stephen Bielenda, who owns
the Wahoo, a diving boat operating out of Captree State Park that has done
salvage operations. ``All we heard about is the black box, the black box,
but the most important thing they should be doing is finding those bodies
to show the families some respect.''

Bielenda disagreed with the assessment of ocean conditions by federal
officials, some of whom said bad weather had barred getting divers in the
water. ``They said it was too rough out there, but my boat had 27 divers in
the water on Saturday,'' he said.

Even with the weather improved, officials now say it makes no sense to send
divers down until the machines have pinpointed key pieces of wreckage.

``We'll send them down when we want to send them down, but we want to make
sure it's justified,'' Robert Francis, vice chairman of the National
Transportation Safety Board, told reporters Saturday night.

Navy Capt. Chip McCord, chief of the Navy's diving operations on site,
added yesterday: ``In this first phase of recovering the black boxes and
mapping the debris field, the preferred method would be not to use the Navy
divers. It's quicker and better the other way.''

That other way, until yesterday, had focused on finding the black boxes
with the Navy's Pinger Locator System, a tube-shaped device, attached to a
boat, that has a sensitive underwater microphone to scan the water for
``pinging'' sounds emitted by the black boxes.

Yesterday afternoon, as the search for the black boxes continued
unsucessfully, officials gave up on the pinger. McCord said signals from
the black boxes have not been heard because the devices are broken,
destroyed or covered with sand or other material.

Instead, the search switched to what had been planned as its second phase:
the side-scan sonar. A sled-like device that's towed on a cable behind a
ship, the sonar scans the ocean bottom and emits sound signals that make a
map as seen from the ocean floor.

The result is a silhouette clear enough to distinguish plane wreckage - and
map the entire field of debris so authorities can figure out where to focus
their resources. The map could also reveal the plane's tail section, where
the boxes were installed, officials said.

``It's important to remember that the more we know about what is underwater
by using the equipment we have, the more that can be done when we put
divers in the water,'' Navy Lt. Commander Gordon Hume said.

After the mapping - which is expected to take several days - divers will
likely enter the water to start bringing up bodies and debris. They will
attach cables and help guide large pieces of wreckage, which are pulled up
by cranes aboard boats. They alsowill search out and bring up smaller
pieces of debris such as personal effects.

But even then, the human divers, who can only stay underwater for 13
minutes at a depth of 120 feet, might be rendered unnecessary by a machine
- this time a robot armed with video cameras and an ``arm'' that can pick
up objects.

If the black box is found, officials said, the robot will be sent down to
retrieve it because it can stay down longer and cover more ground. Divers
would follow only if needed.

>    	Also, what was HIV infected blood doing on a passenger flight?
>    	This was reported on Channel 5 last night as well.

The claim that containers of HIV infected blood were in the cargo hold
continues to appear to have been either a bogus report or a misunderstanding.

Possibly the announcement "don't touch any of the debris that you find
on the shore because it may be a biohazard" was either misreported or
misunderstood.

Any of a number of diseases can be transmitted by human remains.

/john

It looks like TWA will get out of this one alive.

The aircraft was insured, and losing a machine which TWA planned to
replace within two years isn't going to hurt TWA at all.

Unlike the Lockerbie incident, there were no explicit warnings passed
from the government to the airline.  Pan Am was found to have been
grossly negligent for not inspecting unaccompanied baggage after having
been warned by the State Department that there was a credible threat
against a U.S. carrier.

As a result, they were required to pay out millions of dollars for each
passenger; in one case their liability for a single death was found to
be $19 million.

Unless the investigation turns up proof of gross negligence, international
law (primarily the Warsaw Convention) limits the liability for the death
of a passenger to $75,000.  The airline carries enough insurance to be
able to pay that sort of claim with no financial impact to the bottom
line.  And if the missile theory remains credible, even that might not
have to be paid out.

/john

World's press blames sabotage for TWA crash
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

(c) Copyright the News & Observer Publishing Co.
(c) Reuters

LONDON (July 20, 1996) - The world's media has all but decided that TWA
flight 800 which crashed off the coast of Long Island was blown up by a bomb
or downed by a missile.

In blanket cover of Wednesday's crash in newspapers, radio and television
broadcasts, the hypothesis that extremist violence caused the death of all
230 people on the plane has dominated despite calls from the United States
for caution in laying blame before an investigation is complete.

"It was a bomb -- Clinton doesn't confirm, but Americans are certain," ran
the headline in Italy's left-wing L'Unita daily.

Some Hungarian papers suggested a Stinger rocket attack, possibly fired from
a ship, could have caused the tragedy.

But in France, where the flight was bound, the daily Le Figaro said the
plane was too high to be hit by a Stinger.

A French anti-terrorism specialist quizzed by France-Soir said a possibility
was a suicide bomber aboard the jet. It said Semtex or C4 explosives would
be needed to blow up such a jet.

"The trail of the guerrilla attack" -- Le Parisien tabloid, the
biggest-selling national daily, said in its front-page headline on Saturday.

In Britain, where a Pan American 747 was blown out of the sky by a bomb over
the Scottish town of Lockerbie in December 1988 with loss of 270 lives in
the air and on the ground, newspapers also highlighted the sabotage theory
but without producing firm theories about possible perpetrators.

Most preferred to angle their reports on the human tragedies of those who
died.

Israeli media speculated the crash may have been the result of sabotage and
said Israel was investigating possible links with Islamic terror groups. The
media said security had since been heightened at Israeli institutions
throughout the world.

Several Israelis flying in from John F. Kennedy airport in New York were
quoted as saying security there had lapsed.

Papers in the United Arab Emirates warned authorities not to point the
finger prematurely at the Middle East.

"If it becomes necessary to launch a search for terrorist suspects, the
American authorities would be well advised to pay attention not just to the
Middle East but also to the Midwest and other parts of the U.S. where
extremist militias and individual cranks are to be found in abundance," the
Khaleej Times daily editorial said on Saturday.

The daily Gulf News said on Friday U.S. media were "creating a hostile
racist reaction" when they "hastily pointed an accusing finger at the Middle
East."

"It is strange that the mediamen and "experts' who chose to rush to hasty
judgment did not recall the blunder made by their kind over the bombing of a
federal building in Oklahoma City last year," the paper said in an
editorial.

When the Alfred P. Murrah Building in Oklahoma was bombed, the media rushed
to accuse the Middle East of involvement, but the bomb had been planted by a
white American rightwing extremist.

The TWA Boeing 747 had flown from Athens to New York before its fateful
flight from New York to Paris and Greek media erupted in rage over foreign
reports looking at security at Athens airport in connection with the crash.

"They insist on the dirty game," the pro-government daily Ta Nea protested
and depicted foreign reporters as FBI agents trying to sabotage Greece's
tourism industry.

In the United States, the FBI has said it is looking at the crash "as a
criminal investigation" and has not ruled out either an accident or
extremist action as a possible cause.

It resisted labelling the fiery midair blast an act of sabotage despite
persistent media reports and official comments indicating investigators had
zeroed in on that theory.

"We're not prepared to say something unless we know it is absolutely true,"
James Kallstrom, head of the FBI's New York office, told a news conference
on Friday.

"There is no evidence yet, any more than there was yesterday, that this was
a criminal act," said National Transportation Safety Board Vice Chairman
Robert Francis.

From press reports:

A United Airlines flight from Kennedy Airport to Los Angeles was delayed 
more than two hours Sunday night when a passenger was escorted off the 
plane by FBI agents and Port Authority police.

The plane was taxiing to the runway, but had to return to the gate when the 
unidentified passenger moved repeatedly from seat to seat.  At the gate, 
the passenger was escorted off the plane, and airline officials described 
the situation as a "personnel problem."

The incident unnerved some other passengers, who then also asked to leave 
the plane.  One of the passengers who stayed aboard, Michael Jensen, said 
Port Authority police searched the plane and required passengers to point 
out which carry-on luggage belonged to them.

"Anxiety is high here on United 21," Jensen said from a cell phone in first 
class.  The flight left Kennedy at 11:14 p.m.

    
    re .216
    
    Yeah, but EMT's are generally dedicated individuals, in my experience.
    Not just looking for a job that keeps them out of the rain...

    
    
    	re -1
    
    	very true. I don't find many EMT's who are super concerned about
    pay. They do it because they love it (probably why I'm a volunteer). :)
    
    
    jim

Last word (just before noon) was that they had lost the position of the
big piece of wreckage they had found earlier.

Keystone Cops in action.

/john

    Aren't these dingbats marking waypoints with GPS or LORAN?

The reports said "the ship which had previously located the object did not
have sophisticated navigation equipment."

I paid $279 for my GPS receiver!

/john

    Sounds like a load of crapola. Anything that can be called a ship and
    has an engine has at least a LORAN if not a GPS.

Yabbut you didn't have to get that $279 purchase approved through a
multilayer chain of command.  My guess would be that you just had to get it
approved with the better half, which is probably a lot easier than dealing
with government procurement.

OTOH, I haven't heard anything this sad since the urban legends about
fighter pilots bring along their own fuzzbusters.  I'd hope this one (about
losing the sighting) is an UL too, but I s'pose it ain't.

    
    	RE: Pilots and fuzzbusters
    
    	What's the speed limit up there, anyways?  And what's the fine
    	for exceeding it?
    

> Keystone Cops in action.
    
    Funny you should say that, because it was exactly what I was
    thinking while I was reading the news summaries from the weekend
    as posted earlier in this topic.
    
    I kept thinking back to a book that my kid just finished reading,
    by Robert Ballard about his expedition(s) to the Titanic.  They
    can find the Titanic in two-and-a-half miles of water, having only
    a vague idea of its location.
    
    But "they" (not the same "they", but still) can't find a jumbo jet
    in only 120 feet of water?  They can't find flight recorders that
    virtually scream to be found?  They can't find over a hundred bodies?
    
    I don't get it.  We have what is widely suspected to be an act of
    murderous terrorism against Americans, virtually *in* America, and
    quite likely an act of war.  Why isn't the place crawling with every
    conceivable kind of ship, sub, divers, equipment, and so on?  This
    seems to be proceeding *very* slowly and with very little tangible
    result.  Is there some kind of "turf war" going on between all of
    these different agencies and branches of the military?
    
    This is beginning to look a lot like incompetence, or in my worst
    cynical suspicions, intentional foot-dragging.  What are they doing,
    waiting until the Olympics games are over?
    
    Chris

    
      During the night, were there black helicopters over the wreckage
     site ?
    
      bb

    
    If you paid $279, the government would have to pay $2.79 million :) :)

    
    	RE: agency scuffles
    
    	The FBI and the NTSB [or whatever they're called] are allegedly
    	not cooperating very well, although anything you hear in the
    	spoken media leads you to believe they are.
    
    	The FBI doesn't want the other agency contaminating possible
    	evidence, but they're on their case for not moving fast enough.
    

    >  During the night, were there black helicopters over the wreckage
    >  site ?
    
    Bwah-hah, no, the big alien ships from "Independence Day" swallowed
    the whole thing up with a tractor beam.  That's why they can't find
    anything; it's gone.
    
    But seriously folks...
    
    What's Bill Clinton's worst nightmare lately?  Let me guess... if
    a nation (or a terrorist group representing a nation) were to be
    positively identified as having bombed (or worse, "missile'd") an
    American aircraft twenty miles off the coast of New York, what in
    the world is he going to do?
    
    Using my best Karl Malden voice, "What would you do?... What *would*
    you *do*?"  Would you prefer not to have to deal with it?
    
    Chris

 


  > cynical suspicions, intentional foot-dragging.  What are they doing,
   > waiting until the Olympics games are over?
    
    
   bingo!

    I'm really surprised that more folks haven't screamed "alien
    spaceship". Perhaps they have and are finally not getting press
    coverage. Well, it gives them more oppurtunity to write a book about
    "Flight 800 and the Alien Agenda". Hmmmm. Maybe it's time for Preston
    Nichols to write another book. He's the guy who thinks that the gov't.
    is operating a time machine out at Montauk. 
    
    Bright Blessings,
    
    PJ(Who does take this seriously, but wants to see what's on the
    fringe., besides me, that is.)

    
    NTSB = National Transportation Safety Bureau
    
    

    re: .239
    
    National Transportation Safety Board
    
    Bob

>My guess would be that you just had to get it approved with the better half,

Ackshully, though she was with me when we walked into the store (and even I
didn't know for sure that I was going to buy it on the spot), I didn't see
her again until after the purchase was complete.

One of the best pieces of advice we were given before getting married was,
"Keep separate bank accounts, even if only one of you works.  That way, you
can buy each other (or yourself) things without having to check first."

It has worked very well.  We've never had an argument over money.

/john

    See, I haven't always been paranoid.  At one time I would have
    TRUSTED that the people in charge knew what they were doing, and
    rest assured, they'd eventually get it done.  Patience, etc...
    let them do their job and get off their back.  Now, between
    the media going haywire, and the feds with their heads up their bumms,
    I don't know what to think anymore.
    
    This is why this missile stuff gets started.  Face it, it was a bomb.
    The flight was bombed.  The aliens had nothing to do with it.  It's
    not bill clintons fault... the friggin plane was bombed.  Now find out
    who did it and FLATEN THEM BASTARDS.  If you goof up and bomb Hamas
    rather than the "islamic boys for change".... tough, they needed
    bombing.  Bomb them boys too.  Bomb everyone.  I don't think France
    will protest about us flying over their country this time so we
    don't have to bomb their embassy in libya again.  Bomb libya, Iran,
    Iraqi, syria... if they complain, bomb 'em some more.
    
    Jihad!  Jihad.... **KA-BOOM**.   

Pataki has announced that they found a large chunk of wreckage and more
bodies, but the Feds in charge of the investigation won't confirm or deny.

    } My guess would be that you just had to get it approved with the
    } better half
    
    What's this approval bizness?  My wife didn't know we was getting
    a Chevelle until I drove the thing home.  Never mind something
    usefull like a GPS or a new stove or something.
    
    And in case anyone is wondering, yes I ask my wife if it's ok to even
    buy a pencil these days... usually.
    
    MadMike

    .242:
    
    Give that man an AK and a camel!

    GPS -- prolly the DoD had selective availability turned on so an enemy
    couldn't target the whitehouse with a missle, and the ships couldn't
    find the wreckage again from it either.  :-)
    
    I know -- they can fix that now...

    What if this is a military screw up?

    What if a missile _was_ fired at the jet?

    What of the eyewitness account of the bright streak then explosion?

    
    
    	Now THERE'S an interesting possibility.
    
    

U.S. military would have admitted it by now.

    Yeah, everyone seems to be keeping very quite about the eyewitness
    account of what looked like a missle.  Sure would be a sad thing if it
    turned out we shot down our own plane this time.
    

    really?
    
    The military never covers things up?

    
    
    	never. of course not.
    
    

	Glenn, they would have blamed the Canadian's by now if that were the
case! :-)

    That's it, from now on I'm spelling it `missle' as well.

    re: .250
    
    The same thought had occurred to me, given the way
    it's been raining F-14's lately.......
    
    

| <<< Note 760.255 by POLAR::RICHARDSON "Carboy Junkie" >>>

| That's it, from now on I'm spelling it `missle' as well.

	So when we see the word, "well" from you, it really is, "missle"?

    Happened before - Navy Ship Vincennes shot down an Iraqi Airliner
    in 1988 while testing the Aegis missile system.  The Captain got the
    Order of Merit.

    I suppose I should de-Clinton-ize the matter and say "What should
    a President of the United States do?"  In the end, if any definitive
    information is forthcoming at all, this will become more than simply
    a rhetorical question.
    
    If it is indeed a bombing, and a nation or representative group is
    positively identified, then is this an Act of War?  Does it demand
    a military response?  What other responses might be considered appropriate
    and/or reasonable?  My naturally-cynical nature makes me believe that
    exactly nothing will be done.  But what *should* be done?
    
    Now, to re-Clinton-ize it :-), wouldn't it be ironic if, after
    everything that he's (allegedly) done himself and squirmed out of
    (so far), it's something like the TWA Flight 800 Tragedy, pretty much
    out of his control, that turns out to be his downfall.  Ask Jimmy Carter
    about such things (i.e., Iran hostage crisis).
    
    Has Bob Dole had any reaction or public statements involving this
    matter yet (if anyone's told him about it, that is)?
    
    Chris

    .258
    
    Make that Iran.  

    Oh, and it's not "missle", it's "mistle", as in "mistletoe".
    
    Bustle, hustle, whistle... mistle.
    
    Chris

    Are you sure that shouldn't be mistle tustle?
    
    ;-)

    
    	Well, the US DID accidentally drop a bomb in Sarajevo[?] this
    	w'end, although they say that no one was hurt.
    

    (I will never spell missile missle.) * 1000
    
    Grrr...  I knew that didn't look right.  :-(

    Probably a postal worker did it.  Hit 'em with a missal.

    Or a clergyman, with a missive.
    
    Or a Dairy Queen employee, with a Mr. Misty.

    These witnesses to a streak of light, could they have viewed a
    meteorite or some other space fragment ?  The chances of a collision
    with outer space matter are remote but possible and a large enough
    object could vaporize that jet.  Call NORAD to see if they tracked anything 
    entering the atmosphere in that area at that time.

 Meteorite?  Its deja vu all over again..

| <<< Note 760.266 by CTHU26::S_BURRIDGE >>>

| Or a Dairy Queen employee, with a Mr. Misty.

	Too funny!

    re: .258 & .260
    
    Yes, that was Iran, and they weren't "testing" the aegis system.
    They thought that airbus was a hostile F-1 Mirage or similar
    aircraft and shot it down intentionally.
    
    MadMike
                                            

    
    Right, that's what they first said.  However when the data from systems
    and testimony from other crews was admitted, it became clear that the
    aircraft was climbing and heading away from the Vincennes and was
    within its correct and regular flight path.  Consensus is that this
    was an accidental event, but the Navy denied and covered up for a
    loooooong time before the truth emerged.

>If it is indeed a bombing, and a nation or representative group is
>positively identified, then is this an Act of War?

Yes.

>What other responses might be considered appropriate and/or reasonable?

If the assassins are an extremist group harbored by another country which
refuses extradition == economic sanctions.

If the nation had full knowledge and intent to harm U.S. citizens within the
country's borders, they've in effect invaded.

>the Navy denied and covered up for a loooooong time before the truth emerged.

The Navy never denied shooting it down.

/john

    
>The Navy never denied shooting it down.
    
    
    	analogy: "I never denied sleeping with your daughter sir, I just
    didn't tell you I raped her."
    
    	does make a difference, doesn't it....? 
    
    jim

I don't think that's a valid analogy.

More like the Navy was claiming it was an unfortunate mistake rather than
a really stupid and incompetent mistake.

/john

And, BTW, PA 103 was the retaliation.

TW 800 was most likely the retaliation for the beheading of the
supposed perpetrators of last year's Saudi bombing.

/john

    
    
>TW 800 was most likely the retaliation for the beheading of the
>supposed perpetrators of last year's Saudi bombing.
    
    	I agree.
    
    
    

    
    	And the black boxes will only "ping" for 30 days.
    

         One really frightening thing about this tragedy is that terrorists
    will be encouraged by the incompetance displayed during this
    investigation. 

    
    re -1
    
    You're right. Unfortunately, this highlights the incompetence of the
    leadership of all our major governmetal agencies. Regardless of which
    political party currently holds sway...
    

    re:  incompetence et al                       
    
    I think it's more than incompetence; more like inter-agency
    territorial rivalry/turfdom business [hey, doesn't this sound
    like Digital's operations :-(]. 
    
    For example, how come our fancy navy with all the right equipment 
    couldn't have these 2 ships in any earlier than TOMORROW?? It would 
    have been rather obvious that the CG, NY Police, NTSBs' gear all 
    put together couldn't do the job (even though having a couple of 
    Garmin 45 GPS, which will set them back less than $400 would have 
    helped. Crazy isn't it? I mean how hard was it to punch in a couple 
    of waypoints to mark that fuselage site?!). 
    
    So it seems to me either
    a/ someone didn't kowtow low and early enough to the Navy or
    b/ the cowboys refused to escalate; afterall by escalating it could
       mean that they couldn't get the job done
    
    What really makes me angry is that when it comes to assist in a domestic 
    disaster (hurricanes, floods, plane crash, etc), our so-called wealth of
    resources are the last ones to be deployed. Why is that? Why can't
    the navy be involved in this effort earlier on? Why can't the FBI
    be engaged with NTSB the same time? Why can't other Medical examiners
    come onboard and do the autopsies? Is the local ME refusing help? 
    Whose face is being saved/lost here?
     
    Apparently charity doe NOT begin at home.
    

 Well, one things for sure..there's more New York politicians popping up
 down there than you can shake a stick at.




 Jim

Latest word (not sure how reliable) being reported on ABC Nightline is
that a piece of the leading edge of the wing has been recovered which
seems to indicate an impact with an explosive penetrating device.

Other sources say that they know who did it.

/john

While ABC claimed the indication of explosion was on the leading edge
of a wing, CNN claims that the explosive residue is on the trailing
each near the rear cargo hold.

/john

         I would trust CNN first. ABC has some shaky sources.

                     Mossad gave US warning of attack

               From Christopher Walker, The Times of London
                               in Jerusalem

 THE Tel Aviv paper Yediot Ahronot disclosed yesterday that Israel had been 
 asked by the CIA to check the Athens-New York passenger list of TWA Flight 
 800.

 The involvement of Mossad, Israel's secret service, emerged after it was 
 made known that the Israelis warned US Intelligence before the disaster 
 that an American aircraft would be the target of "sabotage or hijacking" 
 by Islamic extremists.  "The American intelligence agency gave Mossad the 
 passenger list of the TWA plane from Athens to New York and asked that it 
 check the passengers' backgrounds to reveal if one of them had connections 
 to a terror group," reported the paper, which has close links to the 
 Israeli security services.

 From the start of investigations, the jet's previous stopover at Athens 
 has been seen as a potential key to the disaster as the airport has a poor 
 security record.  According to Yediot Ahronot, a similar request to 
 examine the Athens-New York manifest has been made to the secret services 
 in Egypt and Jordan.

 Earlier this month, a Mossad officer monitoring Middle East terrorist 
 groups passed an unspecific warning to his American counterpart in Tel 
 Aviv.  The officer said: "The threat of sabotage or a hijacking against an 
 American plane was analysed and considered serious enough for us to pass 
 on to the Americans.  It was then up to the Americans to assess the 
 dangers and decide whether to pass it on to their airlines."

          'Streak of light' reports raise possibility of missile
                             fired from boat

                              BY JAMES BONE
                               IN NEW YORK
                            AND MICHAEL EVANS
                          DEFENCE CORRESPONDENT
                           The Times of London

  FBI AGENTS pursuing a theory that the TWA jet was shot down by a missile 
  have been interviewing people at boatyards along the Long Island 
  shoreline.  They have set up a free telephone number for local people to 
  report any suspicious activity on the evening of the crash.

  At least ten witnesses have report ed seeing something streaking towards 
  the jet before it exploded.  Among them is a Vietnam ex-serviceman, Major 
  Fred Meyer, an officer of the New York State Air National Guard, who was 
  flying a helicopter near by at the time.  He said he saw a streak of 
  light heading towards the aircraft, although he denied later that he had 
  identified it as a missile.  An American spy satellite positioned over 
  the Brookhaven National Laboratory on Long Island is said to have yielded 
  important information.  A law enforcement official said that the 
  satellite pictures show an object racing up to the TWA jet, passing it, 
  then changing course and smashing into it.

  The authorities are also looking into the theft of a 30ft boat from the 
  Long Island coast in the ten days before the crash.  Investigators 
  suggest that, if a missile did bring down Flight 800, it must have been 
  fired from a relatively large boat.  Flying at 13,700ft, or 2.6 miles 
  high, the TWA airliner was out of range of any portable surface-to-air 
  missiles fired from the shore.  Only a US-made Stinger or its Russian 
  copy, the SA14 Gremlin, fired from a boat directly below could have had 
  any chance of reaching the aircraft.

  The Stinger's range is officially secret, but the Pentagon says it is 
  "more than three kilometres" or 1.8 miles.  Unofficial publications esti 
  mate its range at anywhere from 2.7 to 3.1 miles.  The Gremlin, a close 
  copy, has a similar reach.

  There are only a few shoulder-launched missile systems capable of 
  reaching an aircraft at a high altitude, but even the most sophisticated 
  would be operating at the "end of their envelope" at 13,700ft, according 
  to Ian Hogg, editor of Jane's Infantry Weapons.

  The American Stinger missile has a maximum effective range of about 
  14,760ft, but that is travelling at a 45 degree angle.  The missile has a 
  maximum altitude of about 12,400ft.  Mr Hogg said it would be difficult 
  to hit a target at anything beyond 12,000ft.

  Although a number of Stinger missiles went missing on the black market, 
  mostly during the war in Afghanistan when the CIA was supplying the 
  Mujahidin with anti-air weapons, they were the early models which were 
  not so capable.  Some may have ended up in the hands of terrorist 
  organisations.

TIME Magazine

July 29, 1996 Volume 148, No. 6

WHO WISHES US ILL?

THE CIA IS CASTING A WIDE NET FOR THOSE WHO HATE AMERICA, INCLUDING GROUPS
FROM THE MIDDLE EAST

KEVIN FEDARKO

In the mind of every official or politician called upon to conduct a
TWA-related press conference last week loomed the memory of the Oklahoma
City bombing. The outcry against Muslims and Arabs initially kindled by that
atrocity was swiftly silenced by the disclosure that the real culprits were
Americans conducting a holy war of their own. And so when it came to
pointing a finger at possible suspects last week, U.S. authorities
recommended, in Bill Clinton's words, "keeping an open mind." Outside the
public spotlight, however, it was a different story. The CIA immediately
fired off secret cables to its foreign stations, ordering intelligence
officers to comb their sources for leads. Agents quietly began checking the
Athens airport, where the TWA flight originated, for security breaches. The
names of all the passengers who flew the Athens-to-New York City leg, as
well as those who boarded the plane in New York, were traced through
computerized data banks for links with terrorist groups. The Israeli,
Jordanian and Egyptian intelligence services were asked to run checks as
well. The CIA was casting its net as widely as possible, considering
suspects ranging from Colombian drug traffickers to disgruntled airline
employees.

The focus, however, quickly turned to the Middle East. In recent years, even
the most jaded U.S. diplomats have been stunned by the intensity of
anti-American resentment in this part of the world--much of it stemming from
uncritical U.S. support of Israel. Over the past 15 years, the U.S. has
closed embassies in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Sudan and Libya. Many remaining
diplomatic outposts have turned into virtual fortresses. Part of the U.S.
chancellery in Cairo is built to withstand a nuclear blast. In Beirut the
ambassador travels in a military convoy protected by a machine-gun turret.
"It has been a long time," says a U.S. official, "since I have seen such
strong anti-American feelings in the Middle East."

Tracing this sentiment led investigators to a variety of suspects, any of
whom may--or may not--be responsible. Among the candidates are Ramzi Yousef
and his supporters. Yousef belongs to a new breed of Islamic zealot trained
in the Afghan war. He was captured in Pakistan and extradited to the U.S.
last year. Accused of masterminding a fiendishly elaborate plot to blow up
U.S. passenger planes over the Pacific, Yousef is now entering his eighth
week of trial in New York City. Counterterrorism experts fear remnants of
his group may still be active.

Yousef and his allies have plenty of company on the wide-ranging suspect
list. Hizballah, the radical Lebanese organization, restricts its military
operations to Israeli territory. But some U.S. officials suspect that
Hizballah may now be seeking revenge against the U.S. for supporting Israel,
even after its army shelled a United Nations compound in the Lebanese
village of Qana last April, killing more than 100 civilians. Threats have
also come from Egypt's Islamic Group, which has pledged to strike at the
U.S. for imprisoning its spiritual leader, Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman. Rahman,
a blind Egyptian cleric, was convicted last year of plotting to blow up the
U.N. and several other New York landmarks. He is serving a life sentence in
Springfield, Missouri. Speculation also surrounds the hard-line Palestinian
group Hamas, which has vowed to attack the U.S. for agreeing to extradite
Musa Abu Marzouk, a top Hamas official, to Israel.

Another possibility is an extremist Saudi organization calling itself the
Islamic Movement for Change. The group has already claimed responsibility
for two attacks against Americans in Saudi Arabia. The first, in Riyadh in
1995, killed five Americans. The second, in Dhahran last month, took the
lives of 19 U.S. servicemen. Clinton promised that those responsible would
be punished. Last week a person claiming to represent the group faxed a note
to a Saudi newspaper just hours before the TWA explosion promising to
"respond in an extreme way" to the "threats made by the stupid American
President." Officials, however, were downplaying the letter's significance.

Lurking behind all these groups, say U.S. investigators, may be the shadowy
specter of foreign governments. Iran, known to sponsor a variety of radical
Islamic groups, is viewed as the country most determined to oppose the U.S.
presence in the Middle East.

In the end, however, those responsible will probably remain undetected for
some time. "This is going to take a long, difficult investigation," says a
U.S. official. How long? In the case of Pan Am Flight 103, it took nine days
just to determine that the disaster was caused by a bomb. Identifying the
alleged culprits--who were eventually found to have been sponsored by
Libya--took an additional three years of work. And because of protection
from Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi, the suspects were never even brought
to trial. Unlike the 270 people they are accused of murdering, those men are
walking the earth today.

--Reported by Scott MacLeod/Paris, Lara Marlowe/Beirut and Douglas
Waller/Washington

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    	Report on the new says that the authorities have questioned a
    marina official about two men who rented a slip the day the plane went
    down. They paid a deposit and went out but never came back for the
    deposit.
    
    ej

    how deep is the water in the plane recovery area?

    
    Here's an interesting thang.  Apparently, the stinger package is
    equipped with a device called "identification friend or foe".  This
    device interrogates the transponder of the targetted aircraft to ensure
    that it does not acquire a friendly target.  The device can tell
    military from civilian aircraft, and can be used to lock out civilian
    targets. Apparently, one of the things that went wrong on the Vincennes
    was that the IFF read a transponder from an Iranian military transport
    that was still on the ground.   Maybe this option will beome standard
    equipment one day.
    

>    how deep is the water in the plane recovery area?

 ~120 feet

A lot of people have mentioned GPS to get the crashsite 
coordinates so they could find it again.  Did it have 
to be that hitech?  Couldn't they have dumped a Yugo over
the side with a rope and buoy attached to it?

    isn't the plane in a gazillion pieces from the blast?

    >     I would trust CNN first. ABC has some shaky sources.
    
    I dunno, ABC lost one of their own on this airplane.  They're
    motivated.  Consider, for example, how much more motivated cops
    are to investigate a cop killing.
    
    
    re: response for domestic vs. foreign crises (many replies back)
    
    Indeed... if this had happened to some other country, our troops
    would probably be deployed by now...
    
    
    re: missiles
    
    In various Internet newsgroup postings I've read (I really must start
    getting some sleep at night...), I've seen the Afghanistan connection
    that I'd also seen posted here regarding the missing Stingers. 
    Supposedly at one point Afghanistan offered to sell about 100 of them
    back to the U.S., but we declined.  Who knows where they are now.  The
    rumor mill has it that there are at least four more in the hands of
    terrorists, "ready to go".
    
    Speaking of the Internet, as expected lots of theories are being
    bandied about there, from the mundane to the bizarre.  Several of them
    involve the C-130 that was in the area dropping flares at the time
    of the TWA explosion.  Some people (especially those with knowledge
    of military equipment) believe that a particular type of flare was
    being dropped (I forget the name) that is intended as a "heat decoy",
    i.e., to attract heat-seeking missiles away from aircraft.
    
    Some of the more extreme theories down this path involve 1) the U.S.
    had some prior warning concerning a possible attack on a plane out of
    Kennedy, and the C-130 (and other military aircraft, also mentioned
    by name) were there to attempt to prevent such an attack (why not simply
    ground the flights?...), or 2) the U.S. military was conducting
    training exercises in the area at the time, and inadvertently shot
    down TWA Flight 800 themselves with an unarmed missile.
    
    Other frequently-mentioned theories involve the missile being
    launched from a small sub of the type frequently used by drug
    smugglers, and accompanied by a medium-sized boat.  This theory
    explains why they didn't attack from a point further west while
    the aircraft was still at a lower altitude, because the sub needed
    greater water depth, and also to avoid detection.  I don't much care
    for this theory, mainly because it's too complicated.
    
    This is pretty extreme stuff, of course.  I tend to favor simpler
    explanations that fit the facts.  Of course, the problem is, there
    are very few facts to grab onto.  There's a lot of grumbling about
    this on-line as well, and growing suspicions concerning incompetence,
    and foot-dragging for various speculated reasons.
    
    Chris

    There was a memorial service for the victims of TWA Flight 800
    yesterday on Long Island near the explosion/crash site (well, as
    near to it as you can get on land).
    
    I wasn't watching closely, but I didn't see Bill Clinton among the
    government officials present at the memorial service; was he there?
    
    After the Oklahoma City bombing, there was a memorial service that
    was not only highly publicized and televised, but Bill Clinton was
    very prominently present, as I recall.
    
    What's the difference?
    
    I'm quite aware of my anti-Clinton bias, but I do try to be objective
    at times, and I really do get the impression that he's been "hiding"
    from the TWA Flight 800 tragedy.  He's certainly *far* less visible
    and vocal concerning this than he was about OKC, right from the
    beginning.
    
    Chris

The official explanation is that the security resources and money necessary
to bring Clinton to the memorial service(s) would be better spent on the
investigation.

    People expect planes to crash, but they never expect buildings to
    crash.

    he was campaigning, in kaliph, i think.

re: 760.259
    
 >> If it is indeed a bombing, and a nation or representative group is
 >> positively identified, then is this an Act of War?  Does it demand
 >> a military response?

And if the "representative group" you speak of just *happens* to be some crazy
group from this country, we react just the same, right? We declare war on 
them, just as we would one of those crazy groups from all those other crazy 
countries? Ok, well when we start the bombing, don't jump to their defense
because their rights are being violated. Oh, and if your home is within the 
bomb perimeter...

Bob

 Clinton was in Colorado, but did manage to get in a few words regarding the
 memorial service



 Jim

re .303:

This is very reminiscent of the discussion about the OKC bombing.  Some boxers
were calling for reprisals against Iran, Iraq, etc.

    yep, be something if the criminals turn out to be
    some good 'ol white boys protesting whatever.

    It seems odd to me that a plane was dropping flares in the exact same
    area as the crash.

    It also seems odd that the flight/data recorders haven't been retrieved in 
    a mere 120 ft of water.

    It does seem peculiar. Anybody remember if a 747 has an engine in the
    tail? That's where the <orange> boxes are located. I suppose if it was
    a heat seeker and there is a tail engine that the boxes could have been
    rendered inoperative by the mechanical impact/explosion if the missile
    locked onto the tail engine (assuming one exists). It's a thought,
    anyway. Frankly I'm surprised the missile theory is getting as much
    credence as it is, given the greater ease with which a bomb can be
    manufactured/obtained and planted.

747s have four wing-mounted engines.

/john

    I'm getting tired of everyone ranting about the incompentence involved
    in this investigation/recovery effort.  Planes don't crash every day. 
    It stands to reason that we are ill-equipped to handle this type of
    disaster.  It must be quite an ordeal to try to piece things together.  
    
    Stick a firecracker in a goldfish's mouth and see what you can piece
    together. 

A 30'x60' section of fuselage was located last night, and 6 more bodies
recovered from under it.

    'pril.  it's human nature.  it's called 
    monday morning quarterbacking (though
    this game isn't over yet).

I believe the 747 has an APU located in the tail-section
with its exhaust under the rudder.  I would find it unlikely
that a heat-seeking missile would pick out that small heat
source over four wing-mounted furnaces.

APUs only operate on the ground.

/john

>And if the "representative group" you speak of just *happens* to be some crazy
>group from this country, we react just the same, right?

I don't think the {name your favorite state}_militia is representative of the
U.S.

Remember, we're talking about (if) a foreign government which *knowingly*
dispatched a "representative group" to attack U.S. citizens within U.S.
borders.

    'pril, if there is a cover-up, it would explain why the authorities are
    having a difficult time finding things.

> The official explanation is that the security resources and money necessary
> to bring Clinton to the memorial service(s) would be better spent on the
> investigation.
    
    That same reasoning could (should?) have been used to keep Clinton
    away from the OKC memorial service as well, then.  I guess they used
    up all their security resources and money to bring Clinton to the opening
    ceremonies of the Olympics.
    
    
    re: Monday-morning quarterbacking, etc.
    
    The U.S. government has spent untold billions of dollars on "defense".
    We have paid for vast arrays of equipment and manpower, presumably
    for the purpose of defending America.  Now that we actually need this
    stuff, we'd like to see some of it.  We spend more billions of dollars
    on an alphabet soup of agencies and committees and task forces (didn't
    FEMA just get elevated to cabinet status?).  Now that we need them,
    we'd like to see them.
    
    When I glance at the evening news (a rare event, to be sure) and I
    see a couple of "Sea Hunt"-sized boats bobbing around out there, and
    that's "the investigation", I wonder where the rest of our expensive
    forces, resources, and equipment are.  And I'm not the only one.
    
    Chris

    Oh yeah, I'm also tired of everyone screaming "cover-up".
    
    I understand the need to explore all the possibilities, however.

    it took investigators 5 days to locate the black
    box on the Lockerbie jet.  that was on land.

        Well, this one has me wondering for some reason. So many things all
    going wrong at the same time and so many odd circumstances.

>747s have four wing-mounted engines.



 There is an exhaust port for APU in the tail, I believe.



 Jim

 I seem to recall the 747 having an internal APU, the reason for which I
 can't remember.



 
Jim

re .322 & .323 

See .313 and .314.

The APU is used only to provide internal power when the engines are not
running and when ground power is not available.

It is shut down during flight, when the engines can provide all the
necessary power.

/john

    re: .299, Where's Bill
    
    >> What's the difference?  
    
    I see the two incidents as very different.
    
    The OKC bombing was a bombing of a federal government facility.  There
    was no possibility that it was an accident.  There was little doubt
    that the bombing was directed at the US goverment, and US goverment
    employees were killed.
    
    The TWA Flight 800 disaster involved a commercial aircraft.  It was a 
    terible tragegy, but even if the cause of the crash is determined to 
    be a bomb or missile, it is not a forgone conclusion (at least to me) 
    that the act was directed at the US government.  It could easily be
    directed at TWA, or an individual on the plane.
    
    Now if a C130 transport carrying 230 US troops fell victim to a
    terrorist SAM, and Clinton didn't show up for the memorial service,
    you'd have a good point...
    

   Re: 'pril and getting tired of complaints of foot dragging and coverup.

   While I'm not one to get caught up in conspiracy theories too often
   (though I *would* like to know why there was no blast crater in the street
   outside of the OKC building...) there's a lot here to be curious about
   here.

   Why were the C-130s performing exercises in the area?  Had we been warned
   of a possible threat, were investigating it, and the planed dropped
   anyway?  This is not something the US gov would want to advertise.  It
   tells people we were looking for problems, and you're not allowed to
   admit such things these days.  Ground the airplanes instead of using the
   C-130, etc?  Same deal - people would ask "why" and we'd have to admit we
   were open to foreign threat.  This wouldn't wash well in an election year.

   The "world press" has already told us we're the victims of international
   terrorism.  We just have to prove or disprove it now.

   -- Sam

   P.S.  The article a few back concerning our presence in the Middle East.
   Gosh, Libya, Iran, Iraq, and Sudan hate us, huh?  Surprise, surprise.
   I guess we should polish up our image for the benefit of international
   criminals, eh?

    TWA explosion so rare it frightens the experts
    
    
    
    Associated Press
    
    The craft of airplane design is one of precision, of computer
    projections and reassuring statistics. The act of blowing a plane from
    the sky is a chaos of evil intent, slim opportunity and hellish luck.
    
    This is why, beyond the awful loss of 230 lives, aeronautics and
    terrorism experts are so disturbed by the explosion of TWA 800.
    
    For them, the mystery of what happened at 13,700 feet stirs special
    dread: They see either a mechanical failure unlike anything experienced
    or a terrorist act of accuracy and precision rarely seen.
    
    "If it was an accident, it would scare the hell out of us," Michael
    Barr, director of aviation safety programs at the University of
    Southern California, said Monday. "These planes just don't blow up.
    There's too many fire walls, too many checks and balances."
    
    Christopher Ronay is equally troubled. As head of the FBI bomb unit for
    seven years, Ronay investigated 30 aircraft bombings; he retired in
    1994.
    
    "I can't recall anything that has had a catastrophic effect like this
    case," he said. "You could blow the hell out of a cargo compartment
    with a luggage bomb, but you have to blow up a fuel cell or an engine
    to get an explosion like that."
    
    Their perplexed fears are based on witness accounts of a huge orange
    fireball, a possible marker of exploding jet fuel. The Boeing 747 had
    taken off just 17 minutes before, its tanks fully loaded with 48,445
    gallons of fuel for the long flight to France.
    
    The specific fuel involved is called Jet A; it's a derivative of
    kerosene and a sluggish explosive. To explode, it must mix with air, an
    indication one or more of the eight fuel cells in the jumbo jet's wings
    were breached -- either by violent engine or mechanical failure, by a
    well-placed bomb or possibly by a missile.
    
    There have been cases of sudden mechanical failure that caused fire and
    the loss of aircraft. An Air Force C-141 transport plane crashed in
    Europe in the late 1970s when an engine exploded, spraying hot
    fragments that ignited paint in a cargo hold.
    
    A Boeing 767 ripped to pieces over Thailand in 1991 when a computer
    glitch caused one engine to deploy its reverse thruster, sending the
    plane into a vicious spin.
    
    But in neither case was there a cataclysmic explosion.
    
    Before TWA 800 went down last week, there had never been an explosion
    of such ferocity aboard a 747-100, a "wet-wing" or plane that carries
    all its fuel in wing tanks.
    
    "You have to have instant ignition into a large fuel source," said
    Barr, who trains accident investigators. "The way those fuel tanks are
    sealed, it just doesn't happen."
    
    Similarly, few bombing attempts on commercial aircraft have ended in
    such a fiery conclusion. In many cases, jetliners have survived even
    severe damage from explosions and landed safely.
    
    In 1986, terrorists planted a sheet of plastic explosive the size of a
    business letter under one seat on a TWA flight from Rome to Athens. The
    explosion killed one man, blowing his seat out of the plane. A
    grandmother, daughter and grandchild were sucked out of the resulting
    hole. But the plane survived.
    
    "I stood in that hole and you could tell the airplane wasn't in danger
    of coming apart," Ronay said.
    
    Two similar bombings involving flights over the Pacific Ocean resulted
    in the deaths of single passengers, but the planes limped home.
    
    Until now, the crash of Pan Am 103 at Lockerbie, Scotland, in 1988 was
    arguably the most memorably horrific aircraft bombing. But, again,
    there was no fiery explosion -- until fuel-laden parts of the plane hit
    the ground.
    
    A pound of Semtex, a Czech-made plastic explosive, was hidden in a
    radio-cassette player and, when detonated by a timing device, blew a
    hole in the forward hull. The blast weakened an adjacent -- and crucial
    -- structural support. As the plane flew at 500 mph seven miles up, the
    cockpit section buckled back toward the fuselage. The horrible physics
    of those stresses broke the plane into five sections that tumbled to
    Earth over the Scottish countryside.
    
    "The dumb luck of the tragedy is that the terrorist who places a
    suitcase in the system doesn't know where it will go on the plane,"
    Ronay said.
    
    Ronay said if the suitcase containing the radio-cassette player had
    been stacked inside a center cargo hold, surrounded by other luggage to
    absorb the blast, passengers and plane would have survived.
    
    "Placement is everything," he said. "In bombing, location is as
    important as it is in real estate."
    
    Such cases challenge the myth of plastic explosives' enormous power.
    Although it is easily concealed, stable and packs about twice the force
    of other commercial explosives, plastic explosives hidden in luggage
    would not be enough to touch off a 747's fuel tanks, Ronay said.
    
    "If it was a bomb, I'm inclined to say you'd have something involving
    an explosive device concealed in the engine cowling or wing assembly,"
    Ronay said. "If the engine explodes, you could break the wing and
    release the fuel."
    
    The ability to plant a bomb so precisely would raise the stakes of
    terrorism, calling into question issues of personnel checks on
    maintenance staff and security provided for jetliners.
    
    But Barr cautions it is too early to draw conclusions.
    
    "Amateur investigators look at things they know have happened in the
    past and try to set this accident into a sequence they know," he said.
    "Professional investigators have to keep an open mind. This could be a
    brand new problem a 747 never had in its history. Eventually we will
    find out."

    
    	Could an explosion be the result of a fuel leak onto some hot
    	engine parts?
    
    	I'm just guessing here.
    

re .328 No.

Kerosene doesn't explode, it burns, and not extremely fast.

To get it to explode, you have to have just the right mixture of air
and kerosene, and you then have to ignite a lot of it all at once.

/john

    Pressure, don't forget the pressure.  Kerosene has a higher flash point
    and will not produce fumes like lighter distillates i.e. gasoline.  The
    fumes are what ignites.  Kerosene is very stable in this regard.  You
    need to vaporize it and or place it under high pressure for it to
    explode.  Diesels have very high compression ratios for this very
    reason.  

Time and again I have been observing with agony, that Air-India bombing off
the coast of Ireland is being hardly mentioned in any of the reports.
.. and this one is a classic example...

>>    Until now, the crash of Pan Am 103 at Lockerbie, Scotland, in 1988 was
>>    arguably the most memorably horrific aircraft bombing. 

nearly 330+ people I believe died in that incident. In spite of all the do-good
nature of US and other developed nations, it is this kind of subtle denial of 
existance is what irks most of the folks in 3rd world countries.

/Jay

I heard mention of the Air India explosion/crash in the last day or two.
Apparently, they never determined that it was a bomb.  It's just that that
was the most likely scenario.

re .-1 see .51

 I heard it mentioned in several reports the day after TWA 800.




 Jim

    
    we have someone in our office that lost some cousins in that crash, to
    make matters worse, they're house was flooded as well with our recent
    monsoons. 

    No, that must be a mistake Jim. We westerners don't care about third
    world types.

    We should show the same homage to the third world that they show to
    us.
    
    --Doug C. 

    I for one will reserve speculation.   Maybe they will find the
    cause - maybe they will not.   
    
    Sad still the same.

    Some of those replies are exactly why I initially figured the plane
    was shot down.    That note about bomb placement was good.
    The explosion is the key.  Not the explosion of the bomb or warhead,
    but the plane itself, which indicates the fuel got touched off as I
    mentioned earlier.  The 747 has redundant, redunant redundancy (whew),
    at least for the hydrolic system(s).  And engines...  so for the
    plane to explode like that, a fuel cell would need to be pierced,
    which means the explosive was ON THE WING or near it.
    
    I figured a sam went right up the arse of an engine and exploded,
    touching off the fuel.  Next wacko but possible theory is someone got
    to the plane on the ground.  Wow, that would be a bad deal.  
    If a bomb were inside the plane (cargo or passenger area), as we've
    seen before, there would be structural damage, either catastrophic, or
    not, but no fuel explosion.
    
    Finally, while we're all jumping up and down about incompetance, and
    cover-ups.... let me say, "some folks" may have an idea of what's
    going on.  They may already know who to "get".  The US can't
    assassinate or outright retaliate against people, for political
    reasons, but you know payback is a bitch.  See, I know BillC and
    crew are screwups, but they aren't in total control of everything
    that happens
    
    MadMike

    Shooting from the hip, I'd venture that when considering security
    risks, the missile scenario and the maintenance-guy wing-bomb-planter
    are about equally bad, no?  Not much you can do about either one...
    
    Chris

    It's not a maintenance man per se, but an imposter.  If you didn't
    have anything else to do, you could spend a day or two trying to
    sneak into somewhere you shouldn't be.  Or, you could tail someone
    who works at the airport.  Whack 'em and take their badge and walk onto
    the flight line of an airport.  Cripes, this ain't too difficult and
    happens a lot in other realms.
    
    I don't think it would be hard to defeat a missile in the future, I'm
    sure they're already thinking about making weapons smarter, and
    equiping commercial aircraft with a special transmitter,  It might
    add about $10,000 to the cost of a plane, but loosing a $50 Million
    dollar aircraft on top of innocent people makes this a no-brainer.
    This wouldn't be too hard to do, even if you could launch a missile
    the IFF isn't squacking hostile so the warhead wouldn't be armed.
    The weapon would punch a hole in the plane at the most.
    
    MadMike

Strip search everyone who goes onto the tarmac.

>    the IFF isn't squacking hostile so the warhead wouldn't be armed.
>    The weapon would punch a hole in the plane at the most.

That isn't the way IFF works.  A missile disarms itself if the IFF is
squawking FRIEND.  Hostile aircraft don't sit around squawking KILLME.

/john

    So I said it backwards.  It's not to hard to design something that
    will refuse to kill someone who's friendly.  The next trick would
    be to be able to reprogram a weapon to kill something regardless.
    Or obsolete weapons would still blow up on contact.
    
    re: the strip search.  Picture the decguard (not the pretty ones
    at MSO) who casually monitor badges.  Some new guy shows up, how do
    you know... everyone lets their guard down until something bad
    happens.  Then stuff gets real tight for a week or so, then back
    to normal.  
    
    MadMike

OK, conspiracy theorists:

Look at http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/images/top/072396/topstory_17766P.html
and tell me what the blurry area to the left of the center of the photo is.

Actually, I figured it out just as I was writing this.

I think.

/john

    well what is it cause I couldn't find it.

looks like a drop of water on the lens or something.

    .327 13,500 ft? I thought it was at 7,500 ft? 

You thought wrong.

    See .49 for why I thought wrong.

    .341
    
    > add about $10,000 to the cost of a plane...no-brainer.
    
    Right.  That's why the airlines refused to follow an FAA recommendation
    that smoke detectors be installed in cargo holds.  They said the cost
    wasn't justified by the potential payback.  ValuJet 508 may change
    that "no-brainer" decision...

re:.-1

I'm hip.

I mean, once you get your own wings, buying airline tickets gets, like,
kinda redundant, y'know?

    I wonder.......what the color of the pilots eyes were.

    blew.

Families were on TV earlier today yelling and screaming about how
terrible it was that Pataki yesterday claimed that dozens of bodies
(maybe as many as a hundred) would be brought up in the next couple
of days, but that the NTSB says that they are not aware of any bodies
on the bottom, or anywhere else, other than the 107 recovered so far.

Families are demanding international assistance, because they claim
the U.S. Government is hiding something.  They want French teams to
join in the search.

The French Consulate responded that there were already two French
government specialists working at the site.

/john

 I think there are far too many politicians involved in this shindig.




 Jim

    The families who lost love ones think the US gov't is, (gasp)
    covering something up????  (shock/horrros).  I thought I was the
    only paranoid psycho around.  Maybe I'm not nuts after all.
    Maybe we're all nuts, except for mr. bill.
    
    MadMike

Pataki is an appropriate name.

        sounds like a wad of spittle eh?

    Yesterday afternoon the top news story was "dissension in the ranks"
    regarding Flight 800.  Leon Panetta had released a statement that
    there was evidence of a likely bomb blast in the recovered wreckage.
    
    Within hours, Toke McCurry said that the accuracy of Panetta's
    statement was questionable, and that since Panetta doesn't have
    forensic training, he lacks expertise in this area (or some similar
    statement).
    
    Of course, McCurry's extensive forensic training qualifies him to
    make the statement "Anyone in the government who believes that this
    was from a missile has half a brain."
    
    
    Let's take a step back here.  At this point it's possible, if not
    probable, that over two hundred Americans have been attacked and killed
    just off the shore of Long Island, by forces unknown (yes, possibly
    domestic, but more likely foreign).
    
    *Where* is the President of the United States?  In my opinion, he is
    seriously underestimating the impact of this crisis on the people of
    America.  It could very well be his very own version of Jimmeh's Iran
    hostage crisis.
    
    Chris

    mcdougal was on the plane.  this may explain things.

    Gee, Dick, I never said "Kill em all now"... I've never even said
    it was certain countries or specific groups, or even suggested a
    specific response.
    
    But the guy has been invisible.  The situation demands some kind of
    involvement on his part, and we're just not seeing it.  I don't see
    much of even an appearance of concern on his part.
    
    There's a real perception on the part of many that given our vast
    resources, not enough of them are being applied to this problem,
    and given the magnitude of the crisis, he should be involved, as
    opposed to say, the mayor of New York.
    
    If you can point to where I've suggested "Kill em all now", etc.,
    I'd be, er, enlightened...
    
    Chris

    I'll also point out that a military response may not even be
    the most appropriate one, depending on the results of the
    investigation.  I did solicit opinions on what the proper
    responses might be under different outcomes and scenarios,
    but was mostly ignored.
    
    Chris

    .363
    
    > But the guy has been invisible.
    
    He has publicly expressed sorrow and dismay at the incident.  What more
    do you want of him?  He should maybe go to the home of each victim's
    family and give them a rose for remembrance?

    
    go easy on Dick, he's been eating out of the vending machines today.

    I'm still waiting for Dick to find my replies where I said anything
    that could even remotely be misinterpreted as "KILL EM ALL NOW".
    
    I've always gone out of my way to be careful not to jump to
    conclusions and rush to such sentiments, so it's most disappointing
    to be mistakenly characterized and summarized in this manner.
    
    Chris

    Oopsie.  Slur hereby retracted.

    > > But the guy has been invisible.
    >
    > He has publicly expressed sorrow and dismay at the incident.  What more
    > do you want of him?  He should maybe go to the home of each victim's
    > family and give them a rose for remembrance?
    
    
    I consider this to be an ongoing national crisis that should involve,
    at the very least, periodic updates and statements from the President
    of the United States.
    
    Chris

  .368  oafishial retraction

	Di.... STOP! :-)

    .369
    
    And I suppose you'd have expected Lincoln to brief the public daily
    on Grant's strategy, too?  Or Washington to issue daily updates on how
    many of his soldiers' toes had fallen off at Valley Forge?  No, I
    forgot, Washington wasn't prez yet, only a general.
    
    Let the people who are investigating the thing do their jobs.  Let them
    do it without having to worry about damage control over something the
    prez might say that's inappropriate.  It's not as if Slick could add
    anything constructive to what the media are shoveling at us.  Like as
    not, anything he said would be accidentally on purpose misconscrewed by
    the Repubs in an attempt to use it against him in the campaign.  So he
    shuts up.  Either way he's furgled, I guess.

	Think about all the stuff that has been said by others so far that has
people in a tizzy. Why should the President add to it? Like Dick said, let them
do their job, and let everyone else stay out of it.

>     <<< Note 760.372 by SMURF::BINDER "Errabit quicquid errare potest." >>>

>  Either way he's furgled, I guess.

	You got that right.  People are either bitching and moaning because
	he says too much (and it's all lies anyways) or he doesn't say
	enough.  Absolutely can't win.

    
    <getting ready to hunker down in the foxhole>

    Chris,
    
    Relax, don't get wound up by the media frenzy.  People are working
    on the situation.  The prez has been around.  I don't expect much of
    anything from the prez at this time, he's done what he should.  Now
    all the talking mouths and sub-politicians are trying to get on the
    tube and look important, or keep the frenzy going.
    
    People are figuring out what's happened.  I assume any meaningful
    response will be covert (not /john) and we won't hear about it.
    
    MadMike

	When he doesn't say enough, is he telling the truth? :-)

    He only tells lies when his lips move.

    Whether his relative silence is a good strategy or not, it appears to
    have some drawbacks.  For one thing, it creates a "vacuum of official
    leader remarks" that tends to be filled in a decentralized manner by
    the likes of McCurry and Panetta (who are openly contradicting each
    other as the media pointed out yesterday), as well as lesser luminaries
    like mayors, congressmen, and an endless parade of other politicians.
    
    His low-key approach so far must be confusing to the (potential)
    terrorists and their sponsors, at least.  Maybe that's part of the
    grand plan...
    
    Chris

        But if he becomes visible in all of this, he will be accused of
    campaigning.

    Then we would be hearing Bob Dole saying something like "Bob Dole
    would eliminate plane crashes. He stands for zero tolerance regarding
    tragedy and would eliminate it if the American people chose him to be
    President."

| <<< Note 760.378 by POLAR::RICHARDSON "Perpetual Glenn" >>>

| He only tells lies when his lips move.

	Too funny!

    > But if he becomes visible in all of this, he will be accused of
    > campaigning.

    This is true, and I'd be one of the first to accuse him of taking
    political advantage of the situation.  But there must be some middle
    ground that he could take here.  I think that one reason for all the
    frenzies and tizzies in the media is that the "calming leader
    public presence" has been somewhat lacking here.  He could come on
    for a few minutes once in a while and bring down the overall public's
    anxiety level a few notches, as well as having the effect of getting
    all these other politicians and media yakkers to pipe down.
    
    
    > Then we would be hearing Bob Dole saying something like "Bob Dole
    > would eliminate plane crashes. He stands for zero tolerance regarding
    > tragedy and would eliminate it if the American people chose him to be
    > President."
    
    Bwah-hah.  I still haven't posted my "itemized" version of "Why Bob
    Dole should withdraw", but one of the items is his constant creepy
    reference to himself in the third person by name, as if there was
    some other "real" Bob Dole that's a separate and distinct person
    from whatever/whoever he's trying to be for us little people.  But
    that's another topic...
    
    Chris

	Clinto


	Now that's a new name I have not heard before! :-)  Has a nice ring to
it. 

    
    Clinton probably knows more than he lets on; probably can't
    share much right now. Probably something bad, like embarassingly
    bad, like the plane was taken down by friendly fire. Afterall
    the US did drop a 500lb bomb by mistake in Bosnia recently and look
    at the spate of F14s and others crashing, and helicopters colliding 
    in exercise runs. That possibility seems awfully real.
    
    On the other hand he should be able to exercise some control or
    coordination among his staff/mouthpieces so that they do not
    continuously contradict one another. It does look STUPID and
    incompetent.
    
    I hope that the NY govr double and triple-checked his source before
    declaring the newfound bodies. I suspect not. He was probably  trying
    to exploit any airtime and limelight; afterall that is any politician's
    job #2, isn't it (job #1 is to be re-elected)?
    
    By the way, who is in-charge? Who's the crisis manager? NTSB? FBI?
    Pataki? NY mayor? that insufferable d'Amato?
    
    

	White House just announced Clinto will visit the families
	tomorrow.

re: .382 (ChrisR)

>          -< He can't please everyone (and most likely never me :-)) >-
>    > But if he becomes visible in all of this, he will be accused of
>    > campaigning.
>    This is true, and I'd be one of the first to accuse him of taking
>    political advantage of the situation.  But there must be some middle
>    ground that he could take here.

>Note 760.385  TWA Flight 800 to Paris explodes 20 miles off Long Isl  385 of 385
>COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert"                       4 lines  24-JUL-1996 18:22
>
>	White House just announced Clinto will visit the families tomorrow.

Nope, that's too far past middle ground.  He's stumping.

He needs to do less of anything, and more of something.

And that's the only thing he can do.  Otherwise he's stumping or hiding.

Got that?  

\john

 There's plenty of soundbites and photo ops for all the politicians in
 the country with this thing..




 Jim

    Apparently a "journalist" faces up to a year in gaol for impersonating
    a member of a victims family and infiltrating their hotel, attending
    memorial services etc.
    
    New York Daily News, maybe?

  Clinton will bite his lip, wipe a tear and feel their pain, the cameras
 will catch it,  and it will make great TV and campaign ad footage.


 Meanwhile, they've located the "black boxes".




 Jim

  >.368  oafishial retraction
    
     Au contraire. To fail to retract would have been oafish.

    re: Clinton's invisibility
    
     While it would seem helpful for various White House spokesmen to read
    from the same page, I really don't see much to complain about regarding
    Clinton's performance. I don't want to see the man grandstanding or
    making political hay out of this tragedy; indeed, his invisibility is a
    refreshing change from the parade of politicos mugging for the camera
    and holding content-lite press conferences. If there's anything to
    complain about, it's that the President ought to A) make sure that all
    the necessary resources are brought to bear and B) reassure the public
    that A is true. There's a perception that insufficient resources are
    undertaking the salvage and investigation operations, and he is perhaps
    most qualified to rectify this perception.

>    <<< Note 760.391 by WAHOO::LEVESQUE "you don't love me, pretty baby" >>>
    
>     Au contraire. To fail to retract would have been oafish.

     well doy.  it was just wordplay, doctah.  nothing more.

    Another straight line wasted...

    
      Now that they have the "black" boxes (actually, yellow, I'm told),
     is there any chance these WILL NOT clear up the mystery of the
     cause of the crash ?  As I understand it, the usual thing is the
     last words of the crew, usually, "Sh..!"  If they didn't say this,
     does that prove anything ?
    
      bb

| <<< Note 760.395 by GAAS::BRAUCHER "Welcome to Paradise" >>>


| Now that they have the "black" boxes (actually, yellow, I'm told),

	The one they showed on tv looked orange.... :-)

re .389

Woman from the New York Post.

    >  Now that they have the "black" boxes (actually, yellow, I'm told),
    
     International orange.
    
    > is there any chance these WILL NOT clear up the mystery of the
    > cause of the crash ?  As I understand it, the usual thing is the
    > last words of the crew, usually, "Sh..!"  If they didn't say this,
    > does that prove anything ?
    
     One's a voice recorder, one's a data recorder. If the voice recorder
    has no indication of trouble (except a BOOM), and the data recorders
    indicate that all systems were operating normally, then mechanical
    failure seems increasingly unlikely. No known failure modes of engines
    occur so rapidly as to prevent any data from being stored, for
    example.

    
    NOVA did a program on the investigation of a crash in South America.
    When they showed the opened FDR, the tape had jammed and no data was
    recoverable.  I think there had also been a problem with the power
    supply.   The program mentioned that there are about a hundred flight
    engineering parameters sampled. 
    
    I really can't see why they cannot upload at least some critical flight
    data in realtime via satellite link and record it at ground stations.
    Granted that would still be a lot of data flying around for the 7000
    airliners in the US alone, but it does not seem to be outside the realms
    of possibility.  These boxes cost tens of millions of dollars to recover,
    with a good chance that they contain nothing.
    
    

    Black/yellow/orange bax snarf!

    
    They said on the radio this morning that the recorders may not contain
    any information that will solve this issue. Then again, maybe it will
    be enough info to rule out mechanical failure.

    International Orange?

    Hmmmm.

    I was talking to my brother, an air traffic controller, and he was
    telling me how North America is being forced to switch to some system
    developed by the Europeans which has somehow become an international
    standard. He thinks it's ridiculous because the air traffic in the
    united states alone is greater than the rest of the world combined. He
    says our system works just fine thank you very much and that the rest
    of the world she be adopting our way of doing things. Canada is #2
    regarding air traffic.

    How is it that the Europeans manage to force their systems on us? How
    do they manage it?

    It's the new world odor\r\o\d\o order.

    Oh ya, I forgot about the Trilateral Commission.

    re: .402
    
    What specifically are you talking about?  Weather reports?
    
    Bob

    Air traffic control systems.

    re: .406
    
    I'm not aware of any changes being made to U.S. ATC systems for
    compliance with any European rules.  I'm afraid I don't have any first
    hand knowledge of Canadian ATC.  Can you get details?
    
    Bob

the next conspiracy theory...

In the dead of night, the FBI paddles out to the crash scene, and drops
overboard a flight data/voice recorder that they put together with erroneous
data so as to cover up what really happened. The next day, the recorder is
retrieved by a diving team. Everything looks good for the FBI..the public will
be duped, the fools...until they realize they forgot to paint the orange box
black! Screwed again...


Bob

    Hah!  I know how they got the missile to reach the plane all the way up
    there at 13,000 feet...
    
    They stood on top of a 7,000 foot grassy knoll!

Clinton is about to announce new airline security rules.

Press thinks he's going to announce that domestic flights will require
all baggage to be x-rayed and matched to actually boarded passengers.

Of course, the same rules were in effect for TW 800, and fat lot of good
that did.

/john

	Does this mean if they lose your luggage, you too will be lost? :-)

    Is this going to effect my Dec100 trip to West Psalm Beach????

    Effect?  Nah.
    ^
    
    Affect?  Yea!  (Though you WALK through the valley of the.... shadow
    ^               of... jets)
    
    NNTTM
    Leslie

    Halt....Who goes there???  Identify yourself!

    She has, OJM.

    19.2119
    
    Leslie

    uhhh....sorry

    Well, Clinton meet with the families to express his condolences and,
    
    
    promptly flew to Atlanta to catch tonight's gymnastic events.  I
    would have expected him back for the closing ceremonies....but to
    "catch a few events during a light time in his weekly schedule"???
    
    

    Punishment for the New York Post reporter.....
    
    make her standby for all the post mortem and forensic exams!!
    
    

    .419
    
    	I *do* hope she doesn't try and invoke the first amendment.

    >promptly flew to Atlanta to catch tonight's gymnastic events.  I
    >would have expected him back for the closing ceremonies....but to
    >"catch a few events during a light time in his weekly schedule"???
    
     Personally I was glad to see the first family attending the games.

     Clinton tightens airport security

     By Brian McGrory, Globe Staff, 07/26/96

WASHINGTON - President Clinton, faced with growing national concern about
airline safety in the wake of the TWA Flight 800 explosion and the ValuJet
crash, ordered a series of immediate security measures yesterday that range
from more hand-searching of luggage to more elaborate inspections of
airplanes on all international flights.

Starting within days, airports will no longer offer curbside check-in for
international flights, airport hotels will no longer be allowed to
transport luggage independent of passengers, and more bags will be screened
on domestic flights, according to Clinton and other officials.

``We will require preflight inspections for any plane flying to, or from,
the United States,'' Clinton said, standing on the tarmac at John F.
Kennedy International Airport in New York, with Air Force One behind him.
``Every plane, every cabin, every cargo hold, every time.''

Many of the procedures are in place, sporadically, at the nation's
airports, which are already on a relatively high alert status. Clinton's
order will increase existing measures - hand-searching luggage as air
travelers wait in the check-in line, for example - and add new ones, like
abolishing curbside baggage checks for flights abroad.

The result, according to Federal Aviation Administration administrator
David Hinson, will be initial delays that range between 15 minutes to a
half-hour on most flights, depending on the size of the plane. Those delays
eventually will shrink, he said, as they did last July when federal
officials tightened security after the Unabomber threatened to plant a bomb
on an airplane.

``We had some experience with this in Los Angeles, during the Unabomber
incident, you will recall,'' Hinson said. ``And what the airlines had
expected, that did not materialize. And, in fact, there were very few
delays. The airlines were very capable and able to deal with the issue.''

In addition, Clinton ordered Vice President Al Gore to oversee a review of
aviation safety and security needs and the pace of modernization of the air
traffic control system - a point of considerable controversy within the
aviation industry, where officials said the computers are outdated and
subject to failure. Gore was asked to complete the review within 45 days.

Clinton ordered the review and extra security measures even while
repeatedly warning Americans not to reach early conclusions on the cause of
the TWA explosion, which officials believe was a bomb, a missile or a
catastrophic mechanical failure.

``Let me again ask every American not to jump to conclusions,'' he said.
``This investigation is moving forward with great care and even greater
determination. And while we seek the cause of the disaster, let us all
agree that we must not wait to alleviate the concerns of the American
people about our safety and our security. In the wake of the ValuJet crash
and TWA 800, that concern has increased.''

Clinton's speech was delivered minutes after he emerged from a long session
with relatives of the victims on the TWA Flight 800.

While Clinton's order was less than sweeping, he immediately drew praise
from family members. The visit and tightened measures followed a week of
sometimes awkward inaction by the administration and the growing public
perception of a mishandled disaster investigation.

Transportation Secretary Frederico Pena said these increased measures
marked the third time in the past year that security has been heightened at
airports, the first time being last August and the second in October. Since
then, passengers have been widely required to present photo identification
when they check in for a flight. In addition, passengers are often asked if
they packed their own luggage and are they checking or carrying objects
aboard given to them by someone they do not know. Those procedures will
continue, officials said.

Pena, citing the last two instances of heightened security, predicted that
ticket prices would not be affected by the measures.

``I don't think ticket prices have been affected one way or another by
those measures,'' Pena said. ``So we should not see significant change
here.''

This story ran on page a1 of the Boston Globe on 07/26/96.

	Gee..... if Clinton did what he did, and then just went back to the
White House, then you could be satisfied? Why do I doubt this?


Glen

What I've learned from this note:

1) Recovering a plane wreck spread over 2 square miles, under 150' of water
in bad weather should be done in under a week.
2) It's all Clinton's fault.
3) THEY really know what happened, but aren't telling us.
4) Clinton's handling this all wrong.
5) Any moron would be able to find out (after 15 minutes of investigation)
whose fault it is, and commence bombing the crap out of them.
6) Clinton's behind the whole thing.
7) How to plant a bomb on a plane (thank you for this one)
8) It's all Clinton's fault.

Come to think of it, points 2, 4, 6, and 8 are routinely posted to every
other note in this conference as well.

I s'pose the investigators may know more than they're telling.  Then again,
if telling us would interfere with their pursuit of the perps, I just might
not want to know right now.  I'd be more comfortable if some third party
(such as the press) made that determination for us, but the press have
shown themselves to be completely untrustworthy in this respect.

Just a call for patience.

 I also was glad to see Clinton at the Olympics last night.  I bet he
 was hot in that suit, however.




 Jim

Thanks for my new mail personal name, Harn!

:-D

    re:
    >>>Recovering a plane wreck spread over 2 square miles, under 150' of
    >>>water in bad weather should be done in under a week.
     (and all those that are like it)
    
    it's not like the plane went down in one piece and it's just waiting to
    be found...this huge plane is in pieces all over the place.  ever drop
    a glass bowl and even after ya clean it up, you still find pieces weeks
    or months later???
    
    

    I was being sarcastic.
    
    HTH.

Divers said it's like looking for a pin on a football field in the dark. Various
metals at odd angles waiting to snag.

And sharks in the area were also mentioned.

 Well, tell them to hurry up, doggone it!

    
      Word is the CVR tape when played back consisted of 11.5 minutes
     of normal activity, terminated by "an unusual sound".  Federal
     investigators are trying to determine what this sound matches
     up with.
    
      bb

    could it be the sound caused by the bomb blast i wonder?

 You may be on to something there.

    Heard on the news that the sound on the flight 800 cvr tape sounds just
    like the sound at the end of the Lockerbee tape, lending weight to the
    explosion theory.
    
    But we already knew there was an explosion, yes?  Just don't know what
    caused the explosion...

    yes, let's all stay calm.

    > could it be the sound caused by the bomb blast i wonder?
    
    Well, that's probably the kind of sound that they expect to hear,
    but they'd said it was an "unusual" sound.  How's about the sound
    of an approaching missile, that might be considered "unusual".
    
    The recovery effort seems to have gotten its act together in the
    last couple of days; there's lots more equipment out there, both
    in quantity and sophistication, along with more and bigger ships.
    And Clinton's made some presidential-sounding statements and visits,
    so that's an improvement as well.
    
    Now we can just hope that enough evidence turns up to allow the
    definitive determination of a cause.
    
    Chris

>    Heard on the news that the sound on the flight 800 cvr tape sounds just
>    like the sound at the end of the Lockerbee tape, lending weight to the
>    explosion theory.
    
 
 Unless...somebody got ahold of th lockerbee tape and spliced it on to the
 TWA tape to throw the investigators off.



 Jim

    Hey!  Maybe that's the missing 20 minutes from Marjorie Woods' Nixon
    tapes!   {pant, all excited}

Rosemary Woods.  NNTTM.

 18 minutes



 nnttm,hth,rmn

18.5 minutes, akshully.

    My goodness, I do round things off, don't I?  Well, it *was* a memory
    from the 60s, after all...   (whatever that might mean)

 <Mrs. Z. evil eye>

    from the '60s?

    He rounded that one down.

            <<< Note 760.436 by DECWIN::RALTO "Jail to the Chief" >>>

>How's about the sound
>    of an approaching missile, that might be considered "unusual".
 
	Given that surface to air missles fly at supersonic speeds,
	THAT sound would be "        ".

	;-)

Jim

>    <<< Note 760.446 by BIGHOG::PERCIVAL "I'm the NRA,USPSA/IPSC,NROI-RO" >>>

	missile(s).

	(he did so well with MARCIA, too.)  

    marsha marsha marsha!

OK, so they deduce that there was an explosion, and that it was caused
by some external force, like a SAM. What do they do then? And why
aren't they doing that now? Or are they?

There should be two equal efforts: recover the bodies and evidence,
and start to chase the cause.

JMO,
Pete

 Whack 'em once or twice with Bob Dole's paperclip.





 Jim

    re: approaching missile silence
    
    Whoops...  okay, how about the sound of a "penetrating" missile?
    
    Actually, how would one distinguish between an explosion caused
    by an armed missile and an explosion caused by a planted bomb?
    I suppose one could examine the debris for the direction in which
    the metal was bent, and so on.  It would seem difficult to isolate.
    
    
    > OK, so they deduce that there was an explosion, and that it was caused
    > by some external force, like a SAM.  What do they do then?
    
    Speculating, of course... if it's a SAM, I'm not at sure that there's
    much they can do, other than to attempt to prevent future occurrences.
    One possible method might be for someone like the Coast Guard to patrol
    the coastal areas near airports, though this certainly covers a large
    area, once you get more than a few miles out.  It might be possible to
    equip airliners with some defensive equipment (e.g., radar and "Willie
    Peters" flares to distract heat-seekers), but I don't see that
    happening (engineering problems and/or expense).
    
    If it turns out to have been a planted bomb, there's probably more
    that they can do in terms of future prevention.  Clinton's recently
    talked about beefed-up airport security, but to my knowledge he hasn't
    brought into play the EGIS explosives detectors that I posted some
    info about here a few thousand replies ago.  Basically, you need to
    be able to detect plastic explosive, and none of our currently-deployed
    equipment does that.
    
    
    > And why aren't they doing that now? Or are they?
    
    They're planning some of the additional security measures now.
    Who knows what else they may be doing?...
    
    If you mean "identification of responsible parties, and retribution",
    in my opinion, it's pretty unlikely.  Yeah, it's frustrating, but we
    might as well turn the adrenalin into something positive, i.e., what
    we can do to attempt to prevent future occurrences.  It's critical
    to determine the most likely cause of this, as quickly as possible,
    and then to act (rationally) to minimize the chances of it happening
    again.
    
    Chris

    Have they ruled out the possibility that it is mechanical failure, like
    an engine fan blade that decided to go through a fuel tank instead of
    through the passenger cabin?

 The suspicion is that there would have been some warning, or at least some
 indication from the crew that something was going wrong.  The Flight Data
 Recorder should provide the info on that.



 Jim

    An engine coming apart would cause havoc, but it would not be
    instantaneous havoc.  Experts have said more than once that there is no
    known possible scenario of a mechanical failure that would produce the
    instantly catastrophic result that TWA 800 experienced.

    RE: .422

>WASHINGTON - President Clinton, ...
> ...the ValuJet
>crash, ordered a series of immediate security measures yesterday that range
>from more hand-searching of luggage to more elaborate inspections of
>airplanes on all international flights.

    Rhetorical question, how would any of these "security measures" help in
    another ValuJet type incident (i.e., carrying illegal cargo)?

    -- Dave

 It wouldn't, but to the Ricki Lake nation, it looks like Bill is taking
 charge and making things happen..

    re -1
    
    >>Ricki Lake nation
    
    I really like that label
    -ss

    Jim,
    
    What as opposed to the Rush nation who believes clinton can do nothing
    right?
    
    

    Reports here indicate that the first explosion separated the cockpit
    from the fuselage, the plan then flew on for another 10 seconds,
    whereupon a second explosion ripped the plane apart.

    I'm picking up vibes.  Apparently in this planes history it had
    lost a panel on the wing.  A panel that's near the fuel cell.
    
    If this happened again (structural failure) and it caused a fuel
    cell to leak....  kaboom.
    
    This would be very bad because it'll ground every 747 around.  Now
    people are probably hoping it was a bomb that brought the plane down.

    
    heard on the news that they are almost positive it was a bomb.

In the news:

    Another relative, John Felice, added, "We feel that we're being spoon-fed
    bodies, three or four a day."

And you thought castor oil was bad!

    I wonder what the relatives of these people think the
    government/investigators are doing, holding back the bodies? They've
    gotta be in pretty rough shape at this point anyway considering the
    natural process of decay as well as, shall we say, scavengers efforts
    to reclaim the protein.

    Actually, wouldn't the salt water help preserve somewhat...slow down
    the process?

    The coldness of the water is of greater import than the salinity, as
    far as I know. Nonetheless, one assumes scavengers are getting their
    fill (as they are wont to do.) It's not a pretty picture.

    Sea water is filled with things that will help decompose dead flesh but
    not at the same rate as they would in the presence of O2.  Bottom feeders 
    (no, congress is not on the sea floor), finned scavengers, toothed 
    scavengers, and the initially violent blast that most likely tore apart 
    more than a few bodies, and the area over which the debris is scattered, 
    it is unlikely there will be any large numbers of corpses found in one 
    place let alone intact.  

    
    
    	Doctah,
    
    	I think they feel that the gov't is putting more importance on
    	bringing up the wreckage to find out what happened, rather than
    	putting more focus on recovering the 60+ bodies that are still
    	down there somewhere.  (that's what I got out of the news I
    	saw anyway)
    
    	JJ
    

    
    	Heck, I'd have to agree with that.
    
    	It's obvious that everybody died, and the people won't be any
    	deader when the bodies are recovered.
    
    	BUT, clues to the blast could be lost if it takes too long to
    	recover the wreckage.
    

    Most of the Air India bomb victims' bodies were never recovered.
    
    I doubt you'll see many more.

    <<< 
    
    I guess you have to sacrifice a few dead bodiesm to ensure that a lot
    more living bodies are not lost in the furture. Makes sense to me.
    
    Stevo

    A forensic expert indicated that salt water would speed up decompo-
    sition of the bodies.  He was assisting the coroner for that district
    and indicated that although 113 bodies were recovered in a timely
    fashion, dental charts requested from families were slow in coming
    in.  Three days after the disaster the coroner's office had 59 dental
    charts (now considered the only way to make positive identification);
    he said some of the first charts received were from families of
    the French passengers.
    
    He went on to mention that if a bomb was responsible, dental charts
    would only be effective for those passengers furthest away from the
    initial explosion ;-(
    

From the chemistry that my chemistry still encodes and can recall, the
salt water would cause the water to leave the body faster than fresh
water.

It's a matter of osmosis where the saline content of the sea water is
greater than the body and the water responds to this force.

re .472:

I don't think that has much to do with it.  There are lots of hungry
critters in the sea.

I was just talking about the decomposition.

When you start getting et, all bets are off...

Note:

   John P. Fish, vice president of American Underwater Search and Survey of
   Cataumet, Mass.

    
    
    	I hear the NTSB is disputing the NY times article. They say the
    evidence is inconclusive (heard on NPR this morning).
    
    
    jim
    

Seating diagram:

          http://bulova.zko.dec.com/group/covert/twa747seating.gif

/john

    Where has the Grapple been all this time, that it only arrived on
    the scene yesterday?  On the west coast?  Was it not summoned
    until very recently, or does it have cruising speeds of "slow, stop
    and reverse"?
    
    Leslie

    The grapple was in Norfolk I believe.  When you need a cop at an
    accident, do you immediately send the whole department out to stand
    around?  Probably not.  Navy ships are expensive to send someplace
    and sit around twiddling their thumbs.  Once the people on scene
    realized they needed something like the grapple, they called for it.

    I thought its sister-ship (Grasp?) was already on the scene and that
    they decided they needed more help.
    
    Bob

    I think the grapple and grasp are sister ships, but for some reason,
    the grapple might have a heavier lift capability.  Or, now that
    I think of it... there may be 2 distinct debris fields about a
    mile apart.  They probably didn't know where all the wreckage was
    initially, but now they have a decent idea of what is where, and it
    would make sense to have the grapple a mile away picking up large
    stuff in that area while the grasp stays over the initial area.
    
    MadMike

    Thanks.  Seems to me we've been hearing about both of the sister ships 
    for over a week, but *I* hadn't heard where they were coming from.  I
    was surprised in the last couple of days to hear that the Grapple was
    "expected to arrive Tuesday", so I thought I'd ask what the (perceived,
    by me) delay was.  (I know better than to ask, "Does anyone know
    why..."!)
    
    Leslie

    With the Grapple and Grasp both there, it would appear that the Navy
    considers this a high priority.  Where is the Glomar Explorer...?

    I think they need Dirk Pitt and Al Giordano on the scene with the NUMA
    Explorer.  

    
    I really believe all parties involved are doing the best they can to
    bring this investigation to a successful conclusion. cut them some
    slack people. None of you have any real idea on the scope and size
    of this undertaking. why don't you put some trust in these people
    for a change!

    > why don't you put some trust in these people  for a change!
    
    Because they're the government?  :-)

        <<< Note 760.472 by HBAHBA::HAAS "more madness, less horror" >>>

>It's a matter of osmosis where the saline content of the sea water is
>greater than the body and the water responds to this force.

	From a long lost biology course. THe salinity of the water in the
	human body and that of ocean water are nearly the same.

Jim

I was fishing for some data on that...

>	From a long lost biology course. THe salinity of the water in the
>	human body and that of ocean water are nearly the same.

Believe it is quite a bit less.  Something like 0.9% minerals for body fluids
and 3.2% for the sea.  The reason why you can't survive when the only water
to drink is sea water is because the kidneys can't excrete salt in the
concentration of sea water, they excrete more water than you consume trying
to get rid of the salt and you actually dehydrate.

     They plumb the horror

     By Mike Barnicle, Globe Columnist, 08/01/96

     "It's horrifying. You don't even want to think about it," one of the
     investigators working to find out how TWA Flight 800 exploded was
     saying yesterday from Washington. "But more than likely, the people in
     the back half of that plane were conscious for eight or nine seconds
     before it blew up."

     Two weeks ago, the Boeing 747 was decapitated at 13,000 feet by a
     tremendous blast that broke the aircraft in two pieces and filled the
     sky with debris. According to those assigned to a case most likely
     involving 230 counts of homicide, bodies of passengers seated in the
     first and business class sections - the front of the plane - were
     riddled and disfigured from shrapnel.

     ``The back of the plane kept flying for about another mile,'' the
     investigator said.

     On that terrible evening, Flight 800 was more than an hour late taking
     off from Kennedy Airport in Queens, New York. And it appears that
     whatever device was employed to destroy all those lives, it was almost
     certainly triggered by a timer set to go off when the plane was
     somewhere out over the deep Atlantic. A case of human evil thwarted
     somewhat by the human failure of ordinary flight delay.

     Each new discovery from the depths comes out of the water as part of a
     mystifying mosaic, a jigsaw of junk scarred by, most probably, a bomb.
     Prior to being re-assembled, the individual pieces of the fractured
     plane provide partial fingerprints, both chemical and metal, of the
     explosion. Fourteen days after the whole country was shocked by this
     mid-summer brutality, we are left with one funeral after another as
     well as a great American detective story.

     ``Every major airport has millions of dollars worth of equipment to
     X-ray people and luggage,'' an investigator stated. ``And every major
     airport also has people getting paid $6 an hour to put chicken kiev on
     planes a half hour before they take off.''

     So the investigation revolving around the question - Who killed Flight
     800? - is beginning to focus on a forward cargo hold of the plane
     containing several tons of material, from the normal to the bizarre:
     Ordinary air mail side-by-side with an unassembled Brunswick bowling
     alley as well as packages of children's gold glitter, the type glued
     innocently on school projects thought to be special and, perhaps, a
     bomb big enough to cut the head off a 747.

     What was being shipped? What companies transported the packages and
     containers to Kennedy? Who handled it as it went from a pallet on the
     tarmac to the shell of the aircraft? Who worked the food service
     delivery? How many diplomatic pouches were on board? How many human
     beings came into contact with the 747 between the time it arrived from
     Athens that morning and the time it took off for Paris that night?

     As always, the leg work is long and arduous. And it is being done daily
     by people who never seek publicity or notoriety. Their job is the
     precise opposite of what we find contained in so much of the culture
     around us: The pathetic pursuit of celebrity.

     To confirm this observation, we have to look no further than the day's
     headlines. In Georgia, a simpleton of a security guard surfaces as the
     principal suspect in the pipe bombing of an Atlanta park this past
     weekend.

     Guilty or not, the man clearly wanted to be famous. He wanted to be on
     television. He wanted to be given that moment when fame would arrive
     and he would be asked to give his opinion about a matter that had
     everyone talking, coast-to-coast.

     We live in a land where so many of us confuse being famous with being
     smart. If you are on TV, even for a moment, you must be somebody.
     Therefore, in order to become somebody, go out and do something that
     will get you on television.

     As always, the hard work of the republic is being done by those paid to
     perform public service, anonymously. By detectives from the FBI and the
     New York Police Department who have, over 14 days, been walking
     sidewalks, knocking on doors, collecting pieces of information to help
     them put a face and a motive behind a murder that took place more than
     two miles high.

     And by Navy divers who this morning continue to swim up to bodies whose
     haunted faces remain frozen in a horror set by their final seconds of
     terror, bodies ghoulishly and surreally laminated with gold glitter
     being transported in the belly of the doomed Flight 800.

     This story ran on page b1 of the Boston Globe on 08/01/96.

    > Two weeks ago, the Boeing 747 was decapitated at 13,000 feet by a
    > tremendous blast that broke the aircraft in two pieces and filled the
    > sky with debris.
    
    Is this pretty much the accepted scenario now?  Did this theory come
    about primarily based on the condition of the recovered wreckage, or
    the condition of the victims based on their seating, or some
    combination of both (or something else entirely)?
    
    I haven't been following this closely lately... when I did see news
    of it, the "broke in two pieces" theory had appeared kind of suddenly,
    along with an expensive-looking animated sequence showing the explosion
    and the plane (complete with TWA logo, which must have thrilled the
    company) breaking in two, falling, exploding again, and so on.
    
    Have they pretty much decided on a bomb, and have they presented the
    evidence that leads them to this conclusion?  There seems to be a lot
    of (what I'd believe to be) assumptions in Barnicle's article that
    are pretty much stated as fact, or nearly so.
    
    
    > In Georgia, a simpleton of a security guard surfaces as the
    > principal suspect in the pipe bombing of an Atlanta park this past
    > weekend.
    .
    .
    > Guilty or not, the man clearly wanted to be famous.
    
    Guilty or not, apparently he's a "simpleton".  :-)  Interesting how
    the media has run this guy through their shredder with even more than
    their usual drooling fervor and intensity.  If I were him, I'd be
    running my VCR nonstop and getting a good lawyer.  It's also
    interesting that the Centennial Park bombing continues to occupy a
    "higher place" in the news and gets more air time than the Flight 800
    efforts.
    
    Chris

The nose and forward cabin of the aircraft was found about a mile closer to
the airport then the wing and rest of the fuselage.

Ever since this has been known, it has been pretty clear that the front
sheared off early in the incident.

/john

>    running my VCR nonstop and getting a good lawyer.  It's also
>    interesting that the Centennial Park bombing continues to occupy a
>    "higher place" in the news and gets more air time than the Flight 800
>    efforts.
    
   Of course..something else will come along to replace the park bombing
   and send the "reporters" off scurrying about seeking whom to blame and
   stuffing microphones and cameras in the faces of the families of victims.


 Jim

    Aha, thanks for the update.  Definitely chilling to ponder.
    
    Chris

 Indeed..

    > We live in a land where so many of us confuse being famous with being
    > smart. 
    
     Man, here's a candidate for P&K.

    Was listening to news about the resurrection of the bill that would
    give FBI and other law enforcement authorities broad new authority to
    conduct wiretaps, searches, etc., in the name of combatting terrorism.
    Never mind that fewer than 10 wiretaps were requested on terrorism
    suspects last year, out of the many thousands that were requested in
    total.
    
    They were talking about how disappointed the law enforcement community
    was that congress didn't move on this after the Oklahoma City bombing,
    but that now maybe things would be different.
    
    And I'm thinking about all the firemen, police, and such people who
    start and put out their own fires, commit then solve their own crimes,
    etc., often for the purpose of showing their communities how important
    they are and how they should not get their funding cut.
    
    And I'm thinking if you're looking for suspects, and if nobody has made
    any credible claims to authorship of the bombings in the name of
    political terrorism, then maybe we should be looking for whoever might
    profit from the bombings.  Maybe they weren't exactly terrorism at all.
    It's not like we don't have a whole lot of recently underutilized
    professionals in this country trained to do that sort of work, and
    motivated by unemployment and loyalty to the brotherhood of law
    enforcement.
    
    Just an uncomfortable thought...
    
    

    The FBI has just been itching to get broad wire-tap powers.  This
    troubles me.

So they didn't get a chance to pass a tough new anti-terrorism law in
response to TWA 800.

Good.

Who the heck says they gotta pass a new law in response to every event that
leads the network news, anyway?  AFAIK, it was already illegal to blow up
airliners.  More to the point, some talking head on the radio last night
said that it's been some (insert depressing statistic here) years since a
judge has turned down a request for a wiretap order.  I guess as it stands
now, if they want to wiretap someone, they get one of their legions of
lawyers to write a "pretty please" note, and some judge says "Okey dokey." 
And this allegedly needs improving.

Laws passed in haste are laws that will soon be regretted.  Laws passed in
haste are laws that no one took the time to think through.

Kinda depressing that the core reasoning behind all of this is to get extra
opinion poll points for the next election.

    Glob this AM carries a story suggesting that the explosion was caused
    by a bomb in a food cart in the first-class section.  Eleven minutes
    after wheels-up, drink service would have started, but in first class
    drinks are served by hand carry, not from carts.  Food carts would be
    secured in cabinets.
    
    Evidence for this suggestion is a piece of one of the food carts that
    was extracted from the body of a first-class passenger.  This "chip"
    would have had to be blown through the bulkhead of the cabinet, or the
    door would have had to be blown off.
    
    No trace of explosive was found on the front cargo hold door that was
    recovered.

    >Who the heck says they gotta pass a new law in response to every event
    >that leads the network news, anyway?
    
    Well, they are called "Lawmakers" aren't they? We give them the power.

Yabbut I though we were paying them to be incompetent fools.  I wish they'd
just go back to being harmless figureheads.

    What's even more worrisome is that if it's some rogue feebie or spook
    or batf agent or even some entire rogue law enforcement group that is
    planting a few bombs to encourage congress and the American people to
    make the right decisions about giving them more power and money, then
    who is ever going to be good enough and powerful enough to catch them?

    
    <---- hardly.

    <---- You don't think that could happen?

    How would increased wiretapping have prevented the Centennial Park
    bombing?
    
    How would increased wiretapping have prevented the TWA Flight 800
    disaster?
    
    I believe that the real benefit of increased wiretapping is so that
    whoever is currently occupying political power can keep better tabs
    on the dealings, affairs, finances, etc.,  of their opponents.  The
    increased information gathering fits in quite nicely with the likes
    of Filegate and the "Big Brother" WH computer system (the press has
    spiked the story on the latter quite effectively).
    
    Chris

    
    you are starting to remind me of MMercier. No, you all seem to think
    law enforcement personnel are mostly crooked or somehow unsavory.
    Granted, there are a few bad apples in every segment in society, but
    on the whole they are honest and trustworthy. Believe what you want,
    I'll be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

    oy, remember the way he ranted and raved?
    unbelievable.  

There's no conspiracy or agenda, other than the rather simple one that so
many officials assume that performing such hollow acts actually makes a
difference.  Human nature, I guess.  When things happen that are out of
your control, you want to do things to control them, even if it doesn't
really control them.

In individuals, it'd be called obsessive compulsive disorder.  For
instance, someone who thinks that walking through a door three times and
flipping the lights on and off twice will ward the boogey man away.  The
gummint does the same thing, but just with bigger toys.

    >How would increased wiretapping have prevented...
    
    It wouldn't.  Moving in the direction of more police state powers and
    less liberty is not going to help, and is certainly going to hurt
    freedom.
    
    That's why the law didn't pass the first time, and that's why it
    shouldn't pass this time or any other time, but if these things keep
    happening, then it eventually will pass.  That's what makes me
    want to consider the government one of the suspects -- it obviously has
    something to gain: Power.
    

    > you all seem to think law enforcement personnel are mostly crooked
    
    No we don't.  But those few bad apples you admit are there are all it
    takes.  In fact it only takes 1 bad apple.  Remember the intelligence
    connection with JFK's killer?  Remember what Oliver North did?  Ever
    heard stories about cops or firemen who committed crimes or started
    fires?
    
    We all have.  All I'm saying is that the feebies and other gov't
    agencies are not immune to bad apples, whether they be crazy, or
    self-serving, or fanatically patriotic.
    
    The gov't is full of ordinary people, and it has something to gain. 
    Therefore it is fair game for the list of suspects.  But who is going
    to watch the watchers?

|    But who is going to watch the watchers?
    
    Ted Gunderson.
    
    								-mr. bill

    re: piece of food cart in passenger
    
    I don't buy the bomb theory.  My pet theory is that the airframe simply
    failed; 300,000 pounds of jet A1 exploding after the aircraft began to
    disentegrate could accomplish quite a bit of manglement of dishes and
    people.
    
    Has anybody heard what airspeed they were at when it happened?
    At 20 minutes after takeoff and only at 13,500 feet (and very late,
    and clear of the 10,000 foot 250 knot limit which routinely gets
    ignored anyhow), I wouldn't doubt they were pushing all the speed
    they could muster.
    .02 K
    

 Evidently you've missed the statements by experts that such a disentegration
 simply could not happen (and that there was NO indication of problems
 from the cockpit).




 Jim

    The DeHaviland Comets used to do a pretty good job of self-
    disentegration (weak wing root connection).  It was quite
    a mystery for a while too as to why.  Crews didn't have time
    to do anything.
    K
    

 Yes, and that was more than one aircraft pretty early in it's history.
 The 747 has been in production for ~25 years with no such history.




 Jim

    Seems like there would have been a few seconds of sounds left on the
    VDR if that were the case, but maybe not if the wiring parted right
    away.  Hopefully with the recorders in the tail, they didn't run single
    wire connections for sound and power all the way to the front of the
    plane so that any disconnection would stop the recorders...  But who
    knows?
    
    Must have been something like that for both recorders to stop instantly
    after an explosion in the front of the plane.

    I can remember at least one 747 incident with a chunk of
    forward skin ripping away (much like the Aloha 737) under
    the first class section.  Speaking of, the 737 has been in
    production just as long and has a very good record, but
    nevertheless has its share of unexplainable massive failures
    (Pittsburgh and Colorado Springs).
    K

    That's the one where the cargo door blew off, skin ripped off, some
    seats came out, complete with their occupants, yes?
    

    
      According to a ValueHurtlingDeathTraps spokesperson, they are
     ready to resume operations if the FAA will let thim in 3 weeks.
    
      bb

>    I can remember at least one 747 incident with a chunk of
>    forward skin ripping away (much like the Aloha 737) under
>    the first class section.  Speaking of, the 737 has been in
>    production just as long and has a very good record, but
>    nevertheless has its share of unexplainable massive failures
>    (Pittsburgh and Colorado Springs).
 

 Yes, however with the 737 incidents the crew was (sadly) aware of
 their impending demise.

 And the 747 with the skin ripping was related, as I recall, to the cargo
 door blowing off (or was that the Turkish Airlines DC10?).



 Jim

    re .520
    The cargo-door-blows-off-and-sucks-some-rows-out is best known
    from the DC-10 crash outside of Paris (ironically sucking out
    a casket as well).  The skin metal fatigue is best known from the
    Aloha 737.
    K

    TWA flight 800 was not high enough for explosive decompression to
    occur.
    
    --Doug C.

>    The cargo-door-blows-off-and-sucks-some-rows-out is best known
>    from the DC-10 crash outside of Paris (ironically sucking out
>    a casket as well).  The skin metal fatigue is best known from the
>    Aloha 737.
 

 As I recall, the cargo door blew off on the DC10 (caused by a latch not
 properly closed) in Paris causing the floor to buckle, thus rendering the
 hydraulic and electrical controls (mounted under the floor) inoperable
 and causing the aircraft to nose dive from ~x0000 feet.



 Jim

    
    	Hmmm, sounds like they'd subcontracted the latches from ChryCo.
    

    I thought there was a cargo door skin seats passengers ripped off
    somewhere over the ocean, like the pacific?
    
    When there are so many plane crashes that the details all run together,
    maybe it's time to take a train.

    > you are starting to remind me of MMercier.
    
    Why, thank you!  :-)  I always liked his style.
    
    
    > No, you all seem to think
    > law enforcement personnel are mostly crooked or somehow unsavory.
    
    Who's talking about law enforcement personnel?  I'm talking about
    politicians who want to abuse the law enforcement facilities that
    are under their control, to do their politically-motivated bidding,
    e.g. Filegate.  I do, in fact, believe that politicians (not law
    enforcement personnel) are "mostly crooked or somehow unsavory".
    
    
    > Granted, there are a few bad apples in every segment in society, but
    > on the whole they are honest and trustworthy.
    
    Yes they are, but the same qualities that motivate them to pursue a
    career in this field also motivate them to want to keep everything
    under tight control at a cost that's frequently out of proportion to
    the risk.  I don't subscribe to that kind of extremism.  I'm willing to
    risk a bit of safety to maintain our current level of freedom.
    
    
    > Believe what you want,
    > I'll be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
    
    To do anything they want to do?  There's a spectrum involved here,
    of course.  I'd imagine most everyone has some "comfort level" of
    law-enforcement measures beyond which they'd say "hey, hey, enough".
    
    Chris

    I fear the LA to Hawaii express will be as short lived as TWA 800
    

re .527

The incident over the Pacific was a 747.

The plane returned to Honolulu and landed safely (minus a few unlucky
passengers).

/john

    reply .527

    United Airlines 747 off Hawaii.  Front right cargo door blew off.  Some
    passengers were sucked out.  The two right engines were FODed as a
    result.  The plane was barely able to make it back to Hawaii, but it
    did.  The cargo door was later recovered by the Navy in deep water.
    
    --Doug C.

    Now that you can drive from New York to London, that would be the way
    to go.   
    
    Eschew disintegration.

    
    .528
    
    er Chris, I was referring to Mr. Goodwin, not you. You are getting
    a little paranoid. :-)

    The 747 can TAKE OFF with only one engine lit.  I don't know about
    how the 747 in question barely made it back to hawaii.  The 747 is
    pretty beefy, and there's no comparison to the 737's.  The 737
    takes off/lands tons of times in hawaii, short quick hops, with
    salt air, lots of cycles.  The 747 takes off and goes to Tokyo or
    someplace.  One cycle.
    
    I did mention earlier that there's a real teeny chance that a
    panel on the wing failed.  Aparently this has happened TO THIS
    PLANE in the past.  A bunch of jet-a vaporizing behind a 747
    would be an explosive situation, no pun intended.
    
    Just some comments from the peanut gallery.  I'm not a pilot but
    I worked for the company that put the engines on and used to go out
    and pick up the pieces after a screw up.
    
    MadMike

    Oh ya, if I recall, the 737's roof peeled open like a can opener
    was put to it.  The 747's cargo door blew open because it wasn't
    latched securely.  The latch was redesigned to shut the door - period.
    the 737 failed because of the number of cycles and corrosion of
    the airframe.
    
    MadMike 

    are you sure?  i thought the wing cracked
    off like a popsicle stick?

    > er Chris, I was referring to Mr. Goodwin, not you. You are getting
    > a little paranoid. :-)
    
    Oh, well, your note immediately followed mine and all, so...
    
    So I guess this means that I don't remind you of Mercier after
    all, harumph!  :-\  (Suzanne face, thanks JM :-))
    
    Chris

    re: are you sure?  i thought the wing cracked
    
    Directed at?  There've been several screw ups in Hawaii over the
    past 10 years or so.  I'm thinking the aloha air 737, that sucked
    a stewardess out, and the United 747 heading to Tokyo that had the
    cargo door open up.  I know there've been others.  The popsicle
    stick must have happened elsewhere.
    
    MadMike

    Is it true what some guy told me that the wings are *glued* on to the
    fuselage, and they are flexible enough that the wing tips can move up
    and down by 30' or so?

    >The 747 can TAKE OFF with only one engine lit.

    Horse manure!
    
    --Doug C.

    
    	RE: .539
    
    	30'??  That's about the same height as the entire plane.
    
    	30" I could believe.  There has to be SOME flex involved.
    

    they use horse manure to glue the wings on?

  The program on the development and manufacturing of the 777 showed a test
 of the wing that indeed had the thing moving horizontally.  I don't think
 it was 30', but they did put the thing through quite a test.


 I seriously doubt that a 747 can take off on one engine.


 

 Jim

re .539:

>    Is it true what some guy told me that the wings are *glued* on to the
>    fuselage, and they are flexible enough that the wing tips can move up
>    and down by 30' or so?

They only flap 30' right at take off, when you need lots of lift.  At
cruising altitude they only flap about 10' or so, unless the pilot finds
a nice thermal, when the pilot doesn't have to flap the wings at all.

re Shawn:  Ever see a bird fly?  The amount the wings flap is several times
the height of the bird's body.  Airplanes are more efficient than Nature's
birds itself, only having to flap the height of the body, and then only
at take-off.

-Madman

Haven't you folks ever looked out the window?
The wings do flex by several feet at the tips on most big planes. Watch the
wingtips when you hit some turbulence.

    Aaaaaaargh.  The wings have fallen off ZKO!!!

    Musta flown too near to Sun

    I thought a 747 would need at least 2 engines running to take off,
    but according to someone that tried to blow them up intentionally during
    FAA certification, the 747 only needs one engine to get off the
    ground.
    
    Wings are riveted onto the airframe, probably bonded as well with
    adhesive too.  Technically glue.  The wings do flex in flight.
    Look at the B-52 for an example.  The 30' figure might have been
    the breaking point of the wing though during stress tests.
    
    MadMike

| The 747 can TAKE OFF with only one engine lit.

	Planes have a designated engine???? 

    wouldn't the plane go round and round in 
    circles with only one engine on?

    No, they just move all the passengers to the opposite side.   :)

747 wing tips is about 12 ft (6 ft each direction).
Engines will sway back and forth about 4 ft (2 ft
each direction).  This trivia was presented in one
of the aviation courses I took in school back in 
1975 or so.

I don't know about 747s, but the Grumman-American
AA-1A and AA-5 didn't use rivets.  The skin was
glued onto the airframe and used honeycomb aluminum
for a lot of the construction.  Grumman touted this
in their marketing because is was the technology
they developed for the Apollo program.  

No rivets made for a very clean surface.  There were
a few flush, Phillips-head screws in the fuselage.

    .514
    
    > I don't buy the bomb theory.
    
    Reports later today indicate that pieces of first-class dinnerware
    china have been found embedded in the plastic of the cabin walls.  This
    is consistent with a bomb in a food cart.  It is not consistent with
    massive structural failure of the airframe.
    
    Remember also that there were two explosions reported by witnesses.  An
    airframe failure would not produce a flash-yielding explosion audible
    on the ground.

|       Reports later today 
    
    I guess we'll hear that on the Clairvoyant News Network?
    
    								-mr. bill

    Can they tell the difference between an explosion caused by a
    bomb planted in, say, a food cart, and an explosion caused by an
    impact of an armed missile in the same general location?
    
    Chris

  <<< Note 760.518 by RUSURE::GOODWIN "Sacred Cows Make the Best Hamburger" >>>

>Hopefully with the recorders in the tail, they didn't run single
>    wire connections for sound and power all the way to the front of the
>    plane so that any disconnection would stop the recorders...  But who
>    knows?
 
	The voice recorder is located in the front of the plane, the flight
	recorder is located in the tail. Apparently though, there is a 
	single point of failure for power to both boxes. The central
	electrical panel is located in the forward section.

Jim

    The two explosions witnesses saw could have been one wing's worth
    of fuel exploding, then t'other.  Testing so far has shown no
    residue from [an orginal] explosion.  If the front of the aircraft
    failed in some respect at 300+ knots (essentially subjecting part of
    the cabin to tornado-like wind forces), pieces of china could
    get embedded in walls without too much imagination.
    
    A private pilot in the area reported that the dual explosions occured
    at @7500 feet anyhow (he flew thru the smoke), about a minute after the
    original catastrophic failure occured at 13,500.
    K
    

                      <<< Note 760.523 by PCBUOA::KRATZ >>>

>    The cargo-door-blows-off-and-sucks-some-rows-out is best known
>    from the DC-10 crash outside of Paris 

	That was the Turkish Airlines crash. There were no survivors.

	There has been a similar failure on a 747 (UAL I believe) but
	the aircraft was able to land safely (lost two passengers and
	a flight attendant I think).

Jim

>>    wouldn't the plane go round and round in 
>>    circles with only one engine on?

	This has always puzzled me. If only one engine situated
off-centre - like in a wing - is giving power, won't the plane bank on one
side, effectively going in circles ..?

	Can some aeronautical experts in the box explain ..?

Thanks in advance
/Jay

    .555
    
    > impact of an armed missile in the same general location?
    
    No known armed missile would explode inside the fuselage of its target
    craft.  Current missiles are heat-seekers designed to fly up the
    tailpipe of an engine.

 Years ago I read an excellent book called "Destination Disaster", based on
 the Turkish Airlines crash in Paris.  It was also an indictment on Mcdonnelll
 Douglas' rush to get into the widebody aircraft market.  



 Jim

    > No known armed missile would explode inside the fuselage of its target
    > craft.  Current missiles are heat-seekers designed to fly up the
    > tailpipe of an engine.
    
    How about radar-guided missiles?  Are any of these around?
    
    Chris

    .557
    
    > The two explosions witnesses saw could have been one wing's worth
    > of fuel exploding, then t'other.
    
    Except that experts from both Boeing and the NTSB have stated firmly
    and repeatedly that there is no known failure scenario that would even
    cause fuel to explode in that manner.  Kerosene is NOT a highly
    volatile substance - the burning of kerosene in a jet engine is a
    controlled burn, not an explosion, and pouring kerosene on a running
    engine will not even cause that kerosene to ignite.
    
    Furthermore, such a scenario, even postulating the necessary magic to
    cause the fuel to explode, does not yield a debris field where the
    front of the aircraft, ahead of the wing, strikes the surface a mile or
    more before the rest of the plane.  The plane was decapitated; this
    mode of destruction is, according to those same experts, not consonant
    with anything other than massive structural failure of the fuselage
    forward of the wing, such as an explosion would initiate.

>This has always puzzled me. If only one engine situated
>off-centre - like in a wing - is giving power, won't the plane bank on one
>side, effectively going in circles ..?

The pilot would counteract this by applying rudder in the direction
of the functioning engine.  Engine on the left, give it left rudder;
on the right, then right rudder.

    .562
    
    > How about radar-guided missiles?  Are any of these around?
    
    Not as SAMs, no, at least not since the Nike-Hercules...

Also, I heard a report that the engines in that plane
burn JP-8.  JP-8 has a very high flashpoint.  I have one
friend who is a flight-line worker who tells me a lit
cigarette thrown into a bucket of JP-8 would simply
be extinguished.  JP-8 would have to totally vaporize,
as opposed to atomized, to even approach that type of 
explosion.

Question: When did JP-8 come into existance?  The fuel
dump at WPAFB only has silos marked JET A and JP-4.
Is this a commercial fuel only?

    how about those ear wax missles?

they have q-tips on them, right?

    one ear wax q-tip could blow say, lebanon, to smithereens.

	That's so nice to see a band at the end of being blown!

    8^O

    An example of a violent fuel explosion of a large aircraft can be
    seen behind the hanger at Galt airport in Ringwood, Illinois.  A
    KC135 lit up the sky one morning in an explosion about 15 years
    ago and pieces rained down on Galt (a small GA airport).  Thunderstorms
    were in the area.  There were witnesses that said they saw a huge
    fireball.  Admittedly a KC135 is a tanker, but the amount (and type)
    of fuel should be similiar to what a 747 carries.  The Air Force
    didn't even come pick up the pieces... the owner of the airport was
    forced to clean it up.
    K
    
     

    re: .532
    
    How can you drive from N.Y. to London???  The group that tried it from
    London to N.Y. were forced to fly across the Bering Strait.
    
    Bob

	The media are now reporting that the CIA believes that there
	is an Iranian connection to the destruction of TW 800.

/john

    > How can you drive from N.Y. to London???
    
    I heard on radio that some group just drove from London to NY.  They
    went throught the tunnel to France, then across the frozen Bering
    Strait.  I think they said they used some special vehicles that would
    negotiate the ice that bridges the strait in winter.
    
    Musta been pretty tricky going, I would think.

        > How can you drive from N.Y. to London???
    
    Some group already did this - I believe it was documented on a PBS 
    Nova or Frontline show...
    
    They drove a dual tank looking thing across the ice-caps...