Conference back40::soapbox

    Hanoi Jane time? She must be back in the area doing another movie?
    Perhaps she is trying to save the roadkill cause?:)

    Naah, she's just keeping Ted Turner "happy" and making sure that CNN
    news stays well to the left end of the spectrum.
    
    I figure this topic is my "going away present" to the great and
    wonderful 'boxing community.
    
    

    can someone make this topic go away?

    Hanoi Jane.  Ted Turner.  CNN. Atlanta.  Olympics.  Global Community.
    United Nations.  New World Order.
    
    Turn the friggin teevee off until august and she'll go away again.
    Unless something happens during the games.  Then Jane Fonda will
    be the least of your problems.
    
    MadMike

    It's amazing how she transformed to VC collaborator/traitor/NVA AA
    gunner to wife of Daddy BigBucks.. That which she wants for everyone
    else does not apply to her.
    
    Oh, well, Montana does seem to attract it's share of  weird ones - 
    UnaTed, Freemen, Fonda/Turner, etc... Massachusetts has the Kennedys, 
    montana has the Turners. 

    .2 Yha going away? TFSO'ed? Hope not!
    

     .0  I failed to see the purpose of this note?
         Are you merely raving  because you're bore or 
    	 what??
    
         but I'll bite.... hanoi jane or not, I think we all
    	 could collectively and safely say that that war was
         plain stupid and uncalled for. it escalated because 
    	 a bunch of boys in DC who totally ignorant of history,
    	 let alone culture and regional geopolitics thought it 
    	 a fun game to play, and that only they knew what was
    	 right. 
    
    

    Yep... less of course your one of the planted many in the local places
    that honnor our dead. Then of course, living for today is a moot
    point.

    10-4 good buddy. My number's up, I won the "lottery" (not the megabux, 
    the DEC mega-death one).
    
    /Gonzo next week sometime...

 I was really disappointed in "Barbarella".




 Jim

    
    
     I still boycott the witch with a 'b'...
    
    

         Z    but I'll bite.... hanoi jane or not, I think we all
         Z    could collectively and safely say that that war was
         Z    plain stupid and uncalled for.
    
    And Korea was a police job...it is not germane to the point of
    determining a treasonous act.
    
    Question:  Can the military or the federal government court martial a
    citizen for treason; or does this apply only to military personnel?

    
      U.S. Constitution, Article III, Section 3 :
    
      1.  Treason against, shall consist only in levying war against them,
         or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.  No
         person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of
         two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open
         court.
      2.  The Congress shall have power to deckare the punishment for
         treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of
         blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person
         attainted.
    
      bb
      

    Thank you.  Now, let's apply this to real life.
    
    I am not concerned with your attitude toward the Vietnam War.  We
    already know some believe it was a stupid war, etc. etc.  Personally, I
    believe it bloodied the nose of communism and kept it from spreading
    further into Southeast Asia.  I believe it was executed quite poorly,
    that's all.
    
    Now the question.  Would you say Jane Fonda is worthy of being brought
    up on charges of treason?  I believe posing on a Viet cong tank is in
    fact propoganda and is therefore giving Aid to the enemy.
    
    -Jack 

>     .0  I failed to see the purpose of this note?

Obviously.

>         but I'll bite.... hanoi jane or not, I think we all
>    	  could collectively and safely say that that war was
>         plain stupid and uncalled for.

And you'd be largely right. What you fail to see, largely because you
are incapable of sighting clearly past the end of your nose, is that
the "woman" (and I use the term loosely) in question didn't simply
work to stop the war here at home, or work through her political
contacts in the US Govt., or do anything else that could be construed
as legal and honorable by most folks who have any sort of respect for
this country. Instead she chose to go to Hanoi and cheerlead the enemy.

But, as always, I'm quite sure Noter Wannoor hasn't clue one regarding what
being a patriotic American citizen is all about.

    
    mr debalso,
    
    I usually do not get personal... but in this case, you are the most
    insufferable SOB in this notesfile, and an obnoxious jingoistic
    ignorant, stupid american that gives Americans a very, very, very
    bad reputation elsewhere in the world.
    
    You need to get out of your cloistered, narrow-minded sorry and
    pathetic existence, and live and sample life elsewhere before you
    render personal insults and judgement against me.
    
    so get a life, anything higher than your current lowlife will
    be a huge improvement, and DO take your BILE elsewhere, as usual!
    
    What a J%&*!!
    

    ouchers!

YessIam wounded, fershure.

Don't talk to me about jingoist Americans when it comes to the Vietnam conflict
and associated events.

You obviously missed most of what was said, Wannoor. A patriotic American
could (and many did) find many ways to oppose the VN conflict, which were both
within the law and still patriotic. What Jane Fonda did failed to fall into
that bucket. It was pure and simple treason for which she should have been
convicted.

Since you apparently fail to recognize that, how else should I judge your
values?

Er,

If what Hanoi Jane did was Treason,

then

is it not the case

That what Slick Willie did in Mockba was, too?

Inquiring Minds Want To Know.

	John, you know he is going to say yes it is treason, even if Jane
didn't do what she did! :-)

>             <<< Note 745.20 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>

Of course it is the same.

Your point being?

Rereading .20, I sincerely hope that you didn't consider my .19 to be
an indication that I felt that Slick's actions were among those which 
I could construe to be legal or patriotic.

    the last I knew Bill Clinton participated in anti VN involvement
    protests in GB.  He did happen to visit the USSR, as did many students
    at that time who were priviliged enough to be in Europe.
    
    Just a bit of fax correction, and FWIW, I am not sure that what JF did
    was all that aiding and comforting to an "enemy" who we didn't even
    have the decency to declare war against, so neither side was bounded by
    the Geneva Convention.  
    
    make no mistake I lost many friends, and effectively a brother to this
    undeclared war.  
    
    meg

Clinton in GB only?  What about the anti-war protests he organized in
Mockba?

And who says that the Geneva Convention only applies to declared wars?

/john

>    the last I knew Bill Clinton participated in anti VN involvement
>    protests in GB.

And based on the fact that he hadn't renounced his American citizenship,
I've got a big problem with that.

I DON'T have a problem with the American men that went to Canada (or elsewhere),
renounced their American citizenship, and became Canadian (or other) citizens.
They made a commitment in so doing and stuck with their principles.

I DON'T have a problem with  Americans who protested here in the states and
took the chances relative to the penalties incumbent on their activities.
That's what civil disobedience is all about.

I've got a MAJOR problem with the treasonous bastards like Jane and Slick
that took their protests to foreign soil where they both provided succor
to the enemy, and did so with impunity from American law.

I lost far too many good friends, neighbors and relatives in Vietnam, thanks
to the idiocy of the Wa, DC politicians, regardless of the nature of the 
losses, to ever, ever, come to the point that I could "excuse" the actions of 
Jane Fonda, Slick Willy, or any number of other worthless airholes who took 
it upon themselves to cheapen the lives of those who were losing theirs, 
through their selfish shielded activities. They are all scum.

And I have zero tolerance for the likes of those who, like Noter Wannoor,
see it as appropriate that we should dismiss their actions. Those who fail
to recognize that the issue has little to do with the rightness or wrongness
of the conflict that was at the heart of the matter, but that the issue has 
to do with those who literally defecated on the spirit of the men who hadn't 
any choice in the matter, and who lost more than the likes of Noter Wannoor 
may ever be equal to.

Then again, Noter Wannoor would be more than free to apologize for her 
insensitivity and lack of understanding as to exactly what many American 
families lost in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam conflict. For her lack
of understanding as to why "excusing Jane" is not an option.

Somehow, however, I sense that Noter Wannoor would prefer to wallow in the
belief that her cosmopolitan worldly view of life_as_we_know_it is somehow
more superior, and that taking a minute to understand the pain and the loss 
that the Vietnam conflict brought to millions of Americans (as well as to
millions of Vietnamese, for that matter) is somehow immaterial.

>That what Slick Willie did in Mockba was, too?


  Yeah, but he didn't inhale..oh, that was another story.

    You have to forgive Jane because she has nice scones.

    Doesn't she own half (or all) of Atlanta?
    

      Yeah, I fail to see how Jane can be defended.  America, I think,
      should not have been in the war and looks morally pretty bad in
      this case.  *BUT*, if what I hear about how the cong treated our
      POW's is anything near being accurate and *AS* Jane actually was
      actively working to enthuse them, pep them up, what was she in
      effect doing???
    
      She was actively trying to lift up the spirits of an extremely
      evil collective group.
    
      How does anyone excuse that???
    
    						Tony

    re: .4
    
    I have heard something is supposed to happen during the games.
    
    Another planned reason to remove further liberties perhaps???
    
    						Tony

    .29
    
    U plling our collective legs, or what?
    
    I'm w/Jack on this issue 100%

    it's a sad state of affairs when many veterans of vietnam, who fought
    for their country when called to do so, are living with permenant
    injuries and/or are living hand-to-mouth, while weasles like fonda or
    slick are living comfortably in positions of great wealth and power.
    
    
    
     

    And weasels like Phil Gramm and  Newt Gingrich?  Oh thats right they
    supported the action in VN while still using the same sleazy techniques
    Clinton did to get out of the draft.  Which is worse, someone who
    doesn't want to go and doesn't want others to go, or someone who is
    gung ho for everyone else to go, as long as they keep their student
    deferrment and can safely poke the tiger from behind the safety bar?
    
    meg

 Please tell us the details of Gramm and Gingrich's exemption from service.




 Thanks


 
Jim

    
      Treason in the USA is defined, quite specifically.  Running away
     is NEVER treason.  It may be cowardice, or putting self before
     country, or political opposition, but treason is a technical term
     here - a US citizen levying war against the USA, or in adhering to
     their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.  It requires two witnesses
     to the same "overt" act.  I do not believe mere words can ever be
     treason, unless you are revealing troop locations, etc.  Nor do I
     think merely traveling to a hostile power, which might be a different
     crime, is treason.  You would have a hard time proving technical
     treason against any of the politicians named here, including Clinton.
    
       Against Jane Fonda, the case is closer, but I think she might have
     been acquitted, on several grounds.  I think the government, in a
     hypothetical trial, would have succeeded in demonstrating that North
     Viet Nam were "our enemies", although the point would be contested.
     But I wonder if anybody could cite the "overt act" and make it stick.
    
       bb

    Newt and Phil both avoided service with student deferments and
    marriage, similar to what BC did.  However, they "supported the war." 
    Phil Gramm said in a 60 minutes interview last year that he continued
    his deferrment because he "knew" he would get a desk job instead of
    working in the trenches.  I don't know the complete stroy on Newt, but
    he married a woman and had two children rather quickly to cement his
    deferment status.  To me, saying you support other people doing your
    dirty work while refusing to pitch in, other than "moral support," is
    worse than refusing to do the job and saying the job sux.  
    
    Lest anyone think my family was left unscathed, I have a 53-year-old
    brother who came back in name and fingerprints only.  I have seen first
    hand what this action did to people who went thinking they were
    protecting god and country.  I am sick to death of chicken hawks and
    wonder if Newtie or Phil would like to take on my brother's care when
    Mom is no longer capable of it, or if he deteriorates again (likely)
    
    I am not Fond of Fonda, or Clinton, but I find their position slightly
    more credible than that of those who stayed home, but said they
    supported the action.
    
    meg

    >I don't know the complete stroy on Newt, but
    >he married a woman and had two children rather quickly to cement his
    >deferment status. 
    
     Yet another hazy accusation against the Speaker by Mz Meg. What were
    once vices are now habits.

    Mark,
    
    All of this is true, however, Newt has not been as forthcoming with
    details as was Phil Gramm.  Oh, or is it that I get my information from
    public records cited in "mother Jones" that really makes them suspect.  
    
    meg

    I guess we have different understandings of "all" as in "All of this is
    true."
    
    That Gingrich obtained a deferment is a matter of public record and I
    accept that as being true. The part of "all" that I don't accept as
    being true is the allegation that Gingrich got married to avoid the
    draft, and the allegation that he had two children to avoid the draft. 
    
    "Newt, honey, we've already got a kid- you aren't going to be drafted." 
    
    "Too bad- I have to cement my deferment. Assume the position!"

    re: .39
    
    People don't do logical things when they are afraid.  Many people
    are afraid of dying.  I think if we all had to stand on the public
    carpet for all the things we did in our youth, more than a few
    of us would be less than forthcoming on the details. 
    
    I'm sure the Vietnam war prodcued more than a few college graduates
    who wouldn't have been there otherwise.
    
    It was a stupid, senseless war that lasted far too long, and arguing
    about it now won't do any more good than arguing about it 30 years
    ago did.  
    
    Mary-Michael
    

    >arguing about it now won't do any more good than arguing about it 30
    >years ago did.  
    
     But apparently it's still fair game for making slimey accusations
    against political foes...

    Re: .41
    
    But by which side (she asked innocently, batting her eyelashes :-)?
    
    

    Well, who's made accusations?

    Re: .44
    
    Both parties have made acusations about "war records" or a lack
    thereof.  In fact, I'm tired of hearing about war records period.
    I want to know how to people deal with peace. If you're a fish
    out of water unless you're fighting with someone, I don't want
    you in office.
    
    Mary-Michael
    

    
    re: .21
    
    >John, you know he is going to say yes it is treason, even if Jane
    >didn't do what she did! :-)
    
    So, Glen....
    
    What is your understanding of Jane Fonda and her actions in North
    VietNam?
    

 Z   Both parties have made acusations about "war records" or a lack
 Z   thereof.  In fact, I'm tired of hearing about war records period.
  
    Imagine this...while Jane Fonda is posing for pictures on a Viet Cong
    tank, your significant other is three miles away in a submergable cage
    in a river being nipped at by water rats.  
    
    I believe this is exactly what the Jane Fonda's of the world would like
    to hear..."I'm sick of it...peace peace...we want peace!"  Doesn't
    justice have a place in our society anymore?!

    Pictured it, my brother was there getting his brain scrambled when he
    found out that the god and country stuff he was fed in the US had
    nothing to do with reality.  
    
    I still blame those who decided to get US involved in a civil war that
    other countries bailed out of and that we helped create by interfering
    in elections.  The end result was the same, and we and they lost too
    many thousands of people to death, MIA, walking wounded and
    disabilities.  This includes JFK and Eisenhower, and a host of general
    staff that made recommendations against their better judgement.  
    
    meg

I guess I'd be pretty inflamed about Jane's activities in VN, but I'm too
busy being inflamed by an interview I saw with her some years later.  The
interviewer had asked about all the slogans she used to shout during the
war ("Imperialism!" "Genocide!" etc).  Her reply was that she didn't
actually understand what a lot of that rhetoric had meant, but that her
husband had told her all those things, and she trusted his judgment and
said what he told her to.

Great.  This is not my definition of feminist: someone who has to ask her
man what to say.

Her attitudes of late, being Suzy Housewife for what'shisego aren't
particularly surprising.  I expect her opinions will always reflect (or
echo) those of the man she's living with.

If she was off doing treasonous things (which I more or less agree
she was), I'd have at least liked to think it was something she understood
and believed in.  This just reduces the whole thing to "dupe."

    
    
    Hmmm.. time for some Jane Fonda jokes?
    
    Why does Jane Fonda have a sun-roof in her car?
    
    
     Extra leg-room...
    

 Z   I still blame those who decided to get US involved in a civil war that
 Z   other countries bailed out of and that we helped create by
 Z   interfering in elections. 
    
    Interesting, considering Jimmy Carter is notorious for this!

    sigh.... mr delbalso
    
    I NEVER dismiss the incredible, totally unnecessary loss of life
    in Vietnam nor dismiss the typical politicians' stupidity that got
    America in that situation in the first place. Just because
    lives were indeed lost did NOT make the war right; in fact
    it simply underlined how WRONG it was. 
    
    Since you are totally blinded by whatever falsely placed "patriotism"
    as you call it, you simply are not listening to what I said.
    
    There is NO excuse for that g&*^*(m war; we shouldn't be there in the
    first place. We did not learn from the French' failures there; neither
    did we learn of the local geopolitics over the centuries prior to
    interfering.
    
    What you are puffing about is not patriotism; it might be grieve for
    lost comrades, it might be wounded male pride for not WINNING the
    debacle.
    
    Enough said, I do not have any wish to continue any dialogue with
    a hardheaded bombastic jingoistic "patriot" such as yourself.
    
    

    
    re: .51
    
    I'm afraid you are having a hard time seeing the forest for the trees,
    as it were...
    
    Something you are adamantly accusing Lucky Jack of doing...
    
     I suggest a taking a deep breath and trying to comprehend what Jack is
    really saying... and which you are not (saying)...
    
    hth
    
    
    Andy
    

    
    Quick ! Run to Roget's, Wanoor.  You're fresh out of wounding epithets.
    
    

re:                      <<< Note 745.51 by MARIN::WANNOOR >>>

>			the typical politicians' stupidity that got
>    America in that situation in the first place. Just because
>    lives were indeed lost did NOT make the war right; in fact
>    it simply underlined how WRONG it was. 

As I said before. No one is arguing with this viewpoint. You are 100%
correct.
    
>    Since you are totally blinded by whatever falsely placed "patriotism"
>    as you call it, you simply are not listening to what I said.

No - it is you who are either not listening, or failing to comprehend
what's being said. The "patriotism" I'm speaking of has absolutely nothing
to do with "defending the war", or "defending the airhole politicians who
got us into the war".

>    There is NO excuse for that g&*^*(m war; we shouldn't be there in the
>    first place. We did not learn from the French' failures there; neither
>    did we learn of the local geopolitics over the centuries prior to
>    interfering.

And again, you are right. 100%. No one's arguing this.
    
>    What you are puffing about is not patriotism; it might be grieve for
>    lost comrades, it might be wounded male pride for not WINNING the
>    debacle.

Here is where you are absolutely wrong. The Patriotism I am "puffing"
about is the opposition to the idea that what Jane Fonda did was "OK",
"excuseable", "acceptable", "immaterial", or however else anyone wants
to state it in such a way that it's anything other than treason for which
she should have been hanged.

The fact that you fail to see, and the fact that you appear to wish to
"forget about" and "excuse" her actions is what incenses me.

    i really liked her in "Klute".

   .16 was totally uncalled for, so it's easy to understand the reaction.

    Mr. Wanoor:
    
 Z   There is NO excuse for that g&*^*(m war; we shouldn't be there in the
 Z   first place. We did not learn from the French' failures there; neither
 Z   did we learn of the local geopolitics over the centuries prior to
 Z   interfering.
    
    To echo what Lucky Jack said, the discussion at hand is treason and
    Jane Fonda, not the tenets for our involvement in the Vietnam War.
    
    -Jack

Since we seem to be arguing ground rules, can someone post what it is
that Jane Fonda did that qualifies for treason?

A pointer would be good, too.

TTom

>   .16 was totally uncalled for

IYHO.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who says "NBD" to what Jane did, quite
aptly deserves what they get. Taking such an attitude is a sign of either
ignorance, insensitivity, agreement, or all of the above.

    .58
    
    Fonda made treasonous speeches from Hanoi.
    
    gopher://gopher.etext.org:70/00/Politics/NY.Transfer/vnam/fonda1.txt
    gopher://gopher.etext.org:70/00/Politics/NY.Transfer/vnam/fonda2.txt
    
    She should have been arrested, tried, convicted, and executed for
    treason according to the laws of this country.

>         <<< Note 745.59 by MOLAR::DELBALSO "I (spade) my (dogface)" >>>

>IYHO.

	Obviously.

>As far as I'm concerned, anyone who says "NBD" to what Jane did, quite
>aptly deserves what they get. 

	Where, in .7, did she say NBD to what Jane Fonda did?
	She questioned the purpose of the note (understandable since
	it's almost 30 years after the fact) and said the war was
	stupid and uncalled for (arguments?).  

    I tend to agree that Jack was a little harsh with Ms. Wanoor.  But it
    made for good reading.

    i questioned the purpose of it too.  seems like a 
    ridiculous note to me.  why not talk about teddy
    kennedy instead?  he seems to have equal weight
    on the pavlovian scale.

>	Where, in .7, did she say NBD to what Jane Fonda did?
>	She questioned the purpose of the note
        ^____________________________________^

Sure sounds like "NBD" from where I sit. The purpose of the note should
have been clear from previous replies, if not from history.

>         <<< Note 745.64 by MOLAR::DELBALSO "I (spade) my (dogface)" >>>

>Sure sounds like "NBD" from where I sit. The purpose of the note should
>have been clear from previous replies, if not from history.

	Well then I guess you can level the same insult of not having
	"clue one regarding what being a patriotic American citizen
	is all about" against me too (and apparently against Oph),
	if that's your gauge.

  How about if everybody goes out for a nice walk for, say, 15 minutes and
 we all meet here and see how we feel?  Whattya say?




 Jim

re: .58

Thanks for the pointers.

So I guess "treason" is the giving aid and comfort to the enemy as
refernced by .13?

The problem I have with this is that Jane was and is a_idiot. Exactly how
much aid and comfort could she give? I would say that it's less than the
publishing of the _Pentagon Papers_.

Now this isn't to say that I'm part of the BFD crowd. I can certainly
appreciate the divisiveness of the Vietman War, which apparently
continues.

But why bother with Jane, who obviously peaked at or about the time of
_Barbarella_.

TTom

    .66 agagagaga...one one-thousand, two one-thousand...

    69

    
    <---- you saved us from a Glen snarf. thank you.

notice how she didn't snarf!

    Question:  Do you believe Jane Fonda was treasonous?
    
    Answer:  Well, the Vietnam war was stupid anyways.
    
    Ms. Wanoor came across as condoning or at least justifying Ms. Fonda's
    actions through her deflection above.  This to me is interpreted as
    BFD.
    
    -Jack

The Vietnam war was the ultimate argument in favor of mandatory drug
testing for all three branches of the gummit.

Hanoi Jane was a "This is your brain on drugs" ad decades before its time.

>        <<< Note 745.72 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

>    Question:  Do you believe Jane Fonda was treasonous?
    
>    Answer:  Well, the Vietnam war was stupid anyways.

	And where, pray tell, was that question posed to Ashikin, or 
	anyone else, in .0?

	Ashikin asked, in .7, "Can you live for today???".
	That would seem to have been more the point in her questioning
	of the topic.  

>	Ashikin asked, in .7, "Can you live for today???".

So, we dig ourselves deeper, then?

If _THIS_ was her question in .7, then my answer is a resounding "NFW!"

Jane doesn't get a pardon. Period.

I want Jane's neck in a noose. Still,

I won't get it, I'm sure, but that doesn't mean I've got to become an apologist
as Noter Wannoor would seem to prefer,

    Not to defend anything about Hanoi Jane, but how do define trason in a
    police action.  There was no declared war.
    
    Dennis

treason - Noun - The betrayal of one's country, especially by giving aid
    to an enemy. (American Heritage Dictionary for Windows)

I don't think that there's any question that there was "an enemy" regardless 
of the "nature"of the conflict". I don't think that there's any question that
Jane's actions "gave aid".

I truly find it amazing that there are so many who would attempt to be
apologists for this miserable woman.

    I don't apologize for any idiot who did what she did.  I just think
    after thirty years we have no hope of getting action on what she did,
    especially with so many wimps in DC who don't want it brought up.
    
    Dennis

>         <<< Note 745.75 by MOLAR::DELBALSO "I (spade) my (dogface)" >>>

>Jane doesn't get a pardon. Period.

	Er, apparently I missed in .7 where it was that Ashikin said
	that Jane Fonda should get a pardon.

	My first reaction to seeing that we had a note dedicated to
	bashing Jane Fonda was to wonder why this tired subject was
	being dredged up again, so I might well have asked "Can you
	live for today???" too.  And if that had prompted the same
	accusations and insults from you that you hurled at Ashikin,
	I would have been just as outraged as she was.

	Maybe she does think that Jane Fonda should be pardoned,
	I don't know, but that wasn't evident from her .7.

>	Maybe she does think that Jane Fonda should be pardoned,
>	I don't know, but that wasn't evident from her .7.

It's prolly a matter of interpretation and inference, then, isn't it?

Mebbe she'll get around to explaining her viewpoint.

In my opinion, "Live for today" == "Relax and forget it".

No.

    So Ashikin, what do you think about Hanoi Jane???  (I think I asked you
    this in .10 or so and your silence has been deafening!

>         <<< Note 745.80 by MOLAR::DELBALSO "I (spade) my (dogface)" >>>

>Mebbe she'll get around to explaining her viewpoint.

	But in the meantime, tell her she hasn't a clue about patriotism?
	Right.

    Sorry Di, I have very liitle regard for draft dodgers and communist
    sympathizers.  It isn't something that encompasses my life by any
    means...but there you have it!

I calls 'em as I sees 'em.

>        <<< Note 745.83 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

	Well that's fascinating, to be sure, but what does it have to
	do with Jack's attack on Ashikin?

    Well, I'm glad you're delighted.  Maybe Ashikin can clear this up...
    
    Ashikin Ashikin let down your hair...that I may climb the golden
    stair...
    
    ARE YOU WITH US IN CONDEMNING MZ. FONDA OR ARE YOU AGIN US!!!!!?

    
    	Jane is so cute, and has such a nice body ... how can you all
    	hate her so much?
    

    I'l bet Jane really GAS about what you guys think. 

Wail, she almost acquiesced lasted year when the anti-Tomohawk-chop crowd
chimed in.

    A baseball stadium might be considered a quorum, unlike SOAPBOX.  :)

    
      Speaking of Fondas and ex-Fondas...I knew Henry died.  What ever
     happened to Peter ?  When wuz Jane's last flick, not counting
     exercise videos ?  And weren't there supposed to be more on the way ?
    
      bb

    Peter was flyfishing in eastern europe the last I knew (a couple of
    years ago).

I think it might have been Nadja, 1993.

I always liked "Split Image" and "Dirty Mary, Crazy Larry".

daryll

I saw a truly awful one of Pete's movies: _Love and a .45_.

He played a spaced out drug induced vietnam vet that couldn't talk except
through one of them artificial voice box amplifiers.

Avoid this one.

TTom

Absolutely worthless tidbit of trivia of the day:

The town of Fonda, NY was named after one of Hanoi Jane's (and Peter's and
Henry's) grandcestors.

and there's a Fonda, IA. But then again there's a Fontanelle, IA, too.

                                Henry Fonda


The IMDb has filmographies for Henry Fonda in the following categories:
     Actor Producer

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actor filmography

  1. On Golden Pond (1981) (AA) (GG) .... Norman Thayer Jr.
  2. Summer Solstice (1981) (TV)
  3. Gideon's Trumpet (1980) (TV) .... Clarence Earl Gideon
  4. Jilting of Granny Weatherall, The (1980) (TV)
  5. Oldest Living Graduate, The (1980) (TV)

  6. "Roots: The Next Generations" (1979) (mini) TV Series .... Colonel
     Frederick Warner
  7. City on Fire (1979) .... Albert Risley
  8. Meteor (1979) .... The President
  9. Wanda Nevada (1979) .... Old Prospector
 10. Fedora (1978) .... Henry Fonda
 11. Home to Stay (1978) (TV)
 12. Swarm, The (1978) .... Dr. Krim
 13. Great Battle, The (1977) .... "General Foster"
     ... aka Battle Force (1977)
     ... aka Grande Attaca, Il (1977)
     ... aka Greatest Battle, The (1977)
 14. Rollercoaster (1977) .... Simon Davenport
 15. Tentacles (1977) .... Mr. Whitehead
 16. "Captains and the Kings" (1976) (mini) TV Series .... Senator Enfield
     Bassett
 17. Displaced Person, The (1976) (TV)
 18. Great Smokey Roadblock, The (1976) .... Elegant John
     ... aka Last of the Cowboys, The (1976)
 19. Midway (1976) .... Admiral Chester W. Nimitz
     ... aka Battle of Midway, The (1976)
 20. Collision Course (1975) (TV)
 21. Mussolini: Ultimo atto (1974) .... Cardinal Schuster
     ... aka Last Days of Mussolini, The (1974)
 22. Alpha Caper, The (1973) (TV) .... Mark Forbes
     ... aka Inside Job (1973) (TV)
 23. Ash Wednesday (1973) .... Mark Sawyer
 24. Il mio nome e' nessuno (1973) .... Jack Beauregard
     ... aka My Name Is Nobody (1973)
 25. Red Pony, The (1973) (TV) .... Carl Tiffin
 26. Serpent, Le (1972) .... Allan Davies
     ... aka Night Flight from Moscow (1972)
     ... aka Schlange, Die (1972)
     ... aka Serpent, The (1972)
     ... aka Serpente, Il (1972)
 27. "Smith Family, The" (1971) TV Series
 28. Directed by John Ford (1971) .... Himself
 29. Sometimes a Great Notion (1971) .... Henry Stamper
     ... aka Never Give an Inch (1971)
 30. Cheyenne Social Club, The (1970) .... Harley Sullivan
 31. There Was a Crooked Man... (1970) .... Woodward Lopeman
 32. Too Late the Hero (1970) .... Captain Nolan
     ... aka Suicide Run (1970)

 33. C'era una volta il west (1969) .... Frank
     ... aka Once Upon a Time in the West (1969)
 34. Impression of John Steinbeck: Writer, An (1969)
     ... aka Impression of John Steinbeck, An (1969)
     ... aka Steinbeck (1969)
 35. Boston Strangler, The (1968) .... John S. Bottomly
 36. Firecreek (1968) .... Larkin
 37. Madigan (1968) .... Commissioner Anthony X. Russell
 38. Yours, Mine and Ours (1968) .... Frank Beardsley
 39. Really Big Family, The (1967) .... Narrator
 40. Stranger on the Run (1967) (TV) .... The Stranger
 41. Welcome to Hard Times (1967) .... Will Blue
 42. Big Hand for the Little Lady, A (1966) .... Meredith
     ... aka Big Deal at Dodge City (1966)
 43. Battle of the Bulge (1965) .... Lieutenant Colonel Kiley
 44. Dirty Game, The (1965) .... Kourlov
     ... aka Dirty Agents, The (1965)
     ... aka Guerra Secrete, La (1965)
 45. In Harm's Way (1965) .... CINCPAC II Admiral
 46. Rounders, The (1965) .... Howdy Lewis
 47. Best Man, The (1964) .... William Russell
 48. Fail-Safe (1964) .... The President
 49. Sex and the Single Girl (1964) .... Frank Broderick
 50. Spencer's Mountain (1963) .... Clay Spencer
 51. Advise and Consent (1962) .... Robert Leffingwell
 52. How the West Was Won (1962) .... Jethro Stuart
 53. Longest Day, The (1962) .... Brigadier General Theodore

 54. "Deputy, The" (1959) TV Series .... Marshal Simon Fry
 55. Man Who Understood Women, The (1959) .... Willie Bauche
 56. Warlock (1959) .... Clay Blaisdell
 57. Stage Struck (1958) .... Lewis Easton
 58. 12 Angry Men (1957) .... Juror #8 (Mr. Davis)
     ... aka Twelve Angry Men (1957)
 59. Tin Star, The (1957) .... Morg Hickman
 60. Wrong Man, The (1957) .... Manny Balestrero
 61. War and Peace (1956) .... Pierre
 62. Mister Roberts (1955) .... Lieutenant Douglas Roberts
 63. Main Street to Broadway (1953) .... Himself
 64. Pictura (1952) .... Narrator

 65. Jigsaw (1949) .... Nightclub Waiter
     ... aka Gun Moll (1949)
 66. Fort Apache (1948) .... Lieutenant Colonel Owen Thursday
     ... aka War Party (1948)
 67. On Our Merry Way (1948) .... Hank
     ... aka Miracle Can Happen, A (1948)
 68. Daisy Kenyon (1947) .... Peter
 69. Fugitive, The (1947) .... The Fugitive
 70. Long Night, The (1947) .... Joe Adams
 71. My Darling Clementine (1946) .... Wyatt Earp
 72. Immortal Sergeant (1943) .... Corporal Colin Spence
 73. Ox-Bow Incident, The (1943) .... Gil Carter
 74. Battle of Midway, The (1942) .... Voice
 75. Big Street, The (1942) .... Little Pinks
 76. Magnificent Dope, The (1942) .... Tad Page
 77. Male Animal, The (1942) .... Tommy Turner
 78. Rings on Her Fingers (1942) .... John Wheeler
 79. Tales of Manhattan (1942) .... George
 80. Lady Eve, The (1941) .... Charles Pike
 81. Wild Geese Calling (1941) .... John
 82. You Belong to Me (1941) .... Peter Kirk
 83. Chad Hanna (1940) .... Chad Hanna
 84. Grapes of Wrath, The (1940) (AAN) .... Tom Joad
 85. Lillian Russell (1940) .... Alexander Moore
 86. Return of Frank James, The (1940) .... Frank James/Ben Woodson

 87. Drums Along the Mohawk (1939) .... Gilbert Martin
 88. Jesse James (1939) .... Frank James
 89. Let Us Live (1939) .... "Brick" Tennant
 90. Story of Alexander Graham Bell, The (1939) .... Thomas Watson
     ... aka Modern Miracle, The (1939)
 91. Young Mr. Lincoln (1939) .... Abraham Lincoln
 92. Blockade (1938) .... Marco
 93. I Met My Love Again (1938) .... Ives
 94. Jezebel (1938) .... Preston Dillard
 95. Mad Miss Manton, The (1938) .... Peter Ames
 96. Spawn of the North (1938) .... Jim Kimmerlee
 97. Slim (1937) .... Slim
 98. That Certain Woman (1937) .... Jack Merrick
 99. Wings of the Morning (1937) .... Kerry
100. You Only Live Once (1937) .... Eddie Taylor
     ... aka Vida es una Sola, La (1937)
101. Moon's Our Home, The (1936) .... Anthony Amberton John Smith
102. Spendthrift (1936) .... Townsend Middleton
103. Trail of the Lonesome Pine (1936) .... Dave Tolliver
104. Farmer Takes a Wife, The (1935) .... Dan Harrow
105. I Dream Too Much (1935) .... Jonathan Street
106. Way Down East (1935) .... David Bartlett

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Producer filmography

  1. 12 Angry Men (1957)
     ... aka Twelve Angry Men (1957)

            Copyright 1990-1996 The Internet Movie Database Ltd

                                 Jane Fonda


Actress filmography

  1. "Century of Women, A" (1994) (mini) TV Series (voice) .... Narrator
  2. Stanley & Iris (1990) .... Iris King

  3. Old Gringo (1989) .... Harriet Winslow
  4. Morning After, The (1986) (AAN) .... Alex Sternbergen
  5. Agnes of God (1985) .... Doctor Martha Livingston
  6. Dollmaker, The (1984) (TV)
  7. On Golden Pond (1981) (S:AAN) (S:GGN) .... Chelsea Thayer Wayne
  8. Rollover (1981) .... Lee Winters
  9. 9 to 5 (1980) .... Jane Bernly
 10. No Nukes (1980)
     ... aka Muse Concert: No Nukes, The (1980)

 11. China Syndrome, The (1979) (AAN) (BA) (GGN) .... Kimberly Wells
 12. Electric Horseman, The (1979) .... Hallie Martin
 13. California Suite (1978) .... Hannah Warren
 14. Comes a Horseman (1978) .... Ella
 15. Coming Home (1978) (AA) (GG) .... Sally Hyde
 16. Fun with Dick and Jane (1977) .... Jane Harper
 17. Julia (1977) (AAN) (BA) (GG) .... Lillian Hellman
 18. Blue Bird, The (1976) .... The Night
 19. Doll's House, A (1973/II) .... Nora Helmer
 20. Steelyard Blues (1973) .... Iris
 21. F.T.A. (1972)
 22. Letter to Jane (1972)
 23. Tout va bien (1972) .... Susan DeWitt
 24. Klute (1971) (AA) (GG) .... Bree Daniels

 25. They Shoot Horses, Don't They? (1969) (AAN) (GGN) .... Gloria Beatty
 26. Barbarella (1968) .... Barbarella
     ... aka Barbarella: Queen of the Galaxy (1968)
 27. Tre passi nel delirio (1968) .... Frederique
     ... aka Histoires Extraordinaires (1968)
     ... aka Spirits of the Dead (1968)
     ... aka Tales of Mystery (1968)
 28. Barefoot in the Park (1967) .... Corie Bratter
 29. Hurry Sundown (1967) .... Julie Ann Warren
 30. Any Wednesday (1966) .... Ellen Gordon
 31. Chase, The (1966) .... Anna Reeves
 32. Curee, La (1966) .... Renee Saccard
     ... aka Game Is Over, The (1966)
 33. Cat Ballou (1965) .... Cat Ballou
 34. Felins, Les (1964) .... Melinda
     ... aka Joy House (1964)
     ... aka Love Cage, The (1964)
 35. Ronde, La (1964) .... The Married Woman
     ... aka Circle of Love (1964)
 36. In the Cool of the Day (1963) .... Christine Bonner
 37. Sunday in New York (1963) .... Eileen Taylor
 38. Chapman Report, The (1962) .... Kathleen Barclay
 39. Period of Adjustment (1962) .... Isabel Haverstick
 40. Walk on the Wild Side (1962) .... Kitty Twist
 41. Tall Story (1960) .... June Ryder

            Copyright 1990-1996 The Internet Movie Database Ltd

                                Peter Fonda


The IMDb has filmographies for Peter Fonda in the following categories:
     Actor Director Producer Writer

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actor filmography

  1. Escape from L.A. (1996) .... Pipeline
  2. Love and a .45 (1994) .... Vergil Cheatham
  3. Nadja (1994) .... Dr. Van Helsing
  4. Bodies, Rest & Motion (1993) .... Motorcycle Rider
  5. Deadfall (1993) .... Pete
  6. Molly & Gina (1993) .... Larry Stanton
  7. Warren Oates: Across the Border (1993)
  8. Fatal Mission (1990)

  9. Rose Garden, The (1989)
     ... aka Rosengarten, Der (1989)
 10. Hawken's Breed (1987)
 11. Mercenary Fighters (1987) .... Virelli
 12. Certain Fury (1985) .... Rodney
 13. Reason to Live, A (1985) (TV) .... Gus Stewart
 14. Dance of the Dwarfs (1983) .... Harry Bediker
     ... aka Jungle Heat (1983)
 15. Peppermint-Frieden (1983)
 16. Spasms (1983) .... Dr. Tom Brasilian
 17. Split Image (1982) .... Kirklander
 18. Cannonball Run, The (1981) .... Chief Biker
 19. Hostage Tower, The (1980) (TV) .... Mike Graham

 20. Wanda Nevada (1979) .... Beaudray Demerille
 21. High-Ballin' (1978) .... Rane
 22. Outlaw Blues (1977) .... Bobby Ogden
 23. Fighting Mad (1976) .... Tom Hunter
 24. Futureworld (1976) .... Chuck Browning
 25. 92 in the Shade (1975) .... Skelton
 26. Killer Force (1975) .... Bradley
 27. Race with the Devil (1975) .... Roger March
 28. Dirty Mary Crazy Larry (1974) .... Larry Rayder
 29. Open Season (1974)
 30. Two People (1973) .... Evan Bonner
 31. Hired Hand, The (1971) .... Harry Collings
 32. Last Movie, The (1971) .... Young Sheriff
     ... aka Chinchero (1971)

 33. Easy Rider (1969) .... Wyatt (Captain America)
 34. Tre passi nel delirio (1968)
     ... aka Histoires Extraordinaires (1968)
     ... aka Spirits of the Dead (1968)
     ... aka Tales of Mystery (1968)
 35. Trip, The (1967) .... Paul Groves
 36. Wild Angels, The (1966) .... Heavenly Blues
 37. Carol for Another Christmas (1964) (TV) .... Morley
 38. Lilith (1964) .... Stephen Evshevsky
 39. Young Lovers, The (1964) .... Eddie Slocum
 40. Tammy and the Doctor (1963) .... Dr. Mark Cheswick
 41. Victors, The (1963) .... Weaver

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Director filmography

  1. Wanda Nevada (1979)
  2. Idaho Transfer (1974)
  3. Hired Hand, The (1971)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Producer filmography

  1. Easy Rider (1969)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Writer filmography

  1. Easy Rider (1969) (SSF:AAN)

            Copyright 1990-1996 The Internet Movie Database Ltd

    Treason can be committed at any time, not just peacetime, not just
    wartime...

    
    >Treason can be committed at any time, not just peacetime, not just
    >wartime...
    
    What other times are there other than peacetime and wartime?
    

    
    
    	indecision time?
    
    

Re: .103 - Quality time?

    post war
    pre war
    Sunday
    London
    New York
    Times Picayune
    Summer
    
    Just to name a few...

We-really-hate-you-guys-but-not-enough-to-bomb-you-time?

  .103  ;> mind reader.

    cold wartime?

    
    
    >What other times are there other than peacetime and wartime?
    
    
    
    
    
     Polish Standard Time???

    Body Dance time!
    Party time
    Good/bad times
    Time out/in
    

    Cursed....
    
    How about Time Kelly?  No???  Okay....

    


>    What other times are there other than peacetime and wartime?
 

  Howdy Doodie time?   

Bob Smith and Howdy, too
Say "Howdy do!" to you...

I know, I know, it's RATHOLE TIME!

 Cryin' time

    NEVER MIND THAT ART!!!  WHICH SHAW's ARE YOU GOING TO?!

{meekly}

Milford, sir.

    YES!!!! YES!!!!! Ohhhh....darn.....I usually go there but I was going
    to go to BJ's and hit the Shaws in Nashua.
    
    When are you planning on being there?  Are you doing major shopping or
    are you just going in for Cocoa Puffs or some such!  I need to know if
    I'm going to change my plans here.  TALK TO ME ART!!!! 

>    YES!!!! YES!!!!! Ohhhh....darn.....I usually go there but I was going
>    to go to BJ's and hit the Shaws in Nashua.

{Dialing the Nashua police to tell them to stake out Shaw's}

Well, I'm leaving ZKO in a few minutes, to get one of Shaw's
fresh-out-of-the-oven breads to go with the sinfully rich chowder that my
wife is making (seafood isn't just for Friday, you know).

I'll be the one with the cowboy boots, partially hidden belt buckle, and
aviator sun glasses.

Art

ps - I have a serious Hanoi Jane story if anyone ever returns to the base
     note topic...

 Z   I have a serious Hanoi Jane story if anyone ever returns to the base
 Z        note topic...
    
    No we don't!  You just be at Shaws cowboy!!  I'll be wearing a white
    shirt with a red tie!  I'll have blue pants on and worn out loafers!

    
    <--- also looks like Ross from "Friends". Art, be very afraid!