Conference back40::soapbox

 Who is Liddy Dole?

 You wouldn't mean Libby, would you?  Assuming you did, she is a republican
 therefore is a non person.




 Jim

    It must be Bob Dole's little tax deduction.  

    Ho ho!  Hate to say it Brian but the ladies at the church thought it
    was cute.  Sorry we can't all conform to the Gloria Steinburg
    philosophies!

>         <<< Note 706.3 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

> Gloria Steinburg

	who dat?

>         <<< Note 706.0 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>
    
>    In essence, Liddy Dole could be labeled more as a 90's lady than
>    Hillary Clinton.

	because...?

Libby Dole?  Jack's confusing his fruits.

    Because Libby Dole is the epitomy of a woman of self sufficiency.  She 
    doesn't have children and she doesn't have to stand in the shadow of a
    statesman.  
    
    Hillary Clinton is an intelligent individual but I believe Bill's
    coat-tails brought her to the height she is at today.  She would have
    been successful as an attorney and perhaps in the political arena.  But
    I don't believe she would be dictating policy in the executive branch
    as she is today.
    
    -Jack

Statesman?  Do we still have those?

    Statesman today is an empty suit who attends dinner functions with
    other statesman.
    
    

   .7 what does having children or not having children have to do
      with it?  

      you think Hillary stands in Bill's shadow?  okay, whatever you
      say, Jack.

 Z   you think Hillary stands in Bill's shadow?  okay, whatever you
 Z   say, Jack.
    
    No, I didn't say that exactly.  What I said was that in the case of her
    position dictating policy in the Executive branch, then absolutely she
    stands in hubby's shadow.  
    
    Could Hillary become president someday?  Sure she could...I'm dubious
    it will happen but it could.  When you consider her personal
    accomplishements, it can easily be said that her position of the Board
    of Directors was nepotism.  If I was the CEO, I sure as heck would want
    a direct connection to the governor.  Then again Arkansas is a state of
    illiterates and she may have been the result of slim pickings.
    
     
    

    libby has no children?  she did not fulfill her 
    role on earth?  uh-oh.  this troubles me.

 Z   libby has no children?  she did not fulfill her 
 Z       role on earth?  uh-oh.  this troubles me.
    
    Not my point at all.  I mentioned this only to indicate that Hillary
    followed the more traditional family role.  Libby chose not to have
    children.  She believes that her career was more paramount in her life.  
    I admire her convictions. 
    
    The question is...why do feminists of today like Hillary Clinton and
    dislike Libby Dole?  Seems like it should be the other way around.
    
    -Jack 

    Incidently, her intent is to stand in the shadow of Bob for the
    purposes of campaigning.  She believes in Bob and his ability. 
    However, she has already stated up front her plan is to continue her
    own career ambitions and has no intention of hanging around the White
    House.  
    
    I believe her plan will forward the cause of women and equality far
    better than becoming an outspoken arrogant policy dictator.  
    
    -Jack

    i don't know too much about libby.  i know she was
    the secretary of commerce(?) under the <fiddle-faddle>
    administration.  you don't hear too much about libby
    these days.  can you point me to some recent info on
    libby, jack?

    Actually, I can't!  I got this information from the idiot box.

Did she choose not to have children, or is infertility involved?
Apparently infertility is the cause of the Buchanans' childlessness.

    Admittedly, I would be speculating.  From what I heard, it sounded like
    she chose not to have children...adopted or otherwise.
    
    

    report back to us on this mystery woman, jack.

    Both HRC and ED are disasters for the country.  Just goes to prove
    neither party has a lock on incompetent people.
    
    Bob

    Well, they both have their history of inpropriety when it comes to
    money.  
    
    But I still wonder...why does arrogance have to be an integral
    ingrediant in the 1990's feminist mantra?

    so jack, you're either an arrogant woman or you're invisible,
    is that it?  if i remember correckly, this wallflower pose of
    libby's is only a recent phenomenon.  back in her secretary of
    commerce days she was quite outspoken.  or should we say, 
    arrogant?  do you remember her jack?
    

    Bonnie:
    
    The bottom line is we're NOT getting two for the price of one in this
    case.  The electorate didn't ask for Glinda but we got stuck with her. 
    At least in this case, Libby has her own ambitions in life other than
    making a nuisance of herself...which I can't say for Hillary.  Hillary
    was foisted upon us and we didn't ask for her.
    
    -Jack

   



  >  do you remember her jack?
    

     what kind was it?  bumper jack, scizzor jack?  floor jack?

    .24
    
    Huh???  I asked for LIBBY Dole?  Man, I gotta learn to read the fine
    print...
    

>    Huh???  I asked for LIBBY Dole?  Man, I gotta learn to read the fine
>    print...

Libby Libby Libby on the label label label... Read the label and set
a better table.

    RE: Libby and not planning on hanging around the white house...
    
    Good thing.  Now she won't be disappointed when Bob doesn't get elected.  

    Let's see...
    
    Libby marries a successful, middle-aged politican, and she's an
    independent woman...
    
    Hillary marries a country-bumpkin college student, and she's riding his
    coattails...
    
    NOW I understand Republican logic!
    
    BTW, I don't want to start a new topic, but anybody read the latest
    "tobacco" issue of Mother Jones?  Great articles.  I'd love to hear
    from our Christian neo-cons concerning the CC's refusal to attack
    tobacco use in its so-called "Contract with the American Family"...
                                                                       

    Ah...we're now up to "Christian neo-cons".  Isn't that special.

    .31
    
    We've been "up" to Christian neo-cons since Ronnie Raygun.  Don't like
    the term?  I thought you guys invented it!
    

	Jack, I'm trying to figure out something that maybe you can help me
with. You talk of Hillary as someone who we didn't ask for, but is on the
coat-tails of the prez. So what things did she do to make her be someone that
no one asked for that was a result of being with Bill?



Glen

>	Jack, I'm trying to figure out something that maybe you can help me
>with. You talk of Hillary as someone who we didn't ask for, but is on the
>coat-tails of the prez. So what things did she do to make her be someone that
>no one asked for that was a result of being with Bill?



  huh?

I'm still looking for a good parsometer repair shop.

    .24  libby's been reformatted to fit your tiny tiny screen.

    .35
    
    grepz - courtesy Hebrew Union College
    

    I don't get the connection between Ms. Dole and tobacco etc.  It sounds
    interesting though, you might try the Smoker's Beware topic to further
    the rant, er, discussion.  

    -< Okay... howsabout close-minded zealots? >-
    
    I see your are getting warmed up, now.  What will you use for a finale?
    
    I'm assuming you meant "closed-minded", I have no idea what
    "close-minded" refers to.  8^)

    .39
    
    Likewise, I haven't the foggiest idea what "I see your are getting
    warmed up, now" means.
    

    
    I wonder, does Elizabeth Dole make a mean pineapple upside down cake??

    Libby Dole carried herself admirably in her role in the Bush cabinet. 
    She's one woman I would vote for if she was running for Pres.  I'd
    actually vote for her over any other Republican candidate except for
    Alan Keyes.

    
    >>> Alan Keyes
    
    does Alan have a brother named Iforgotmycar?

    u r getting as bad as Glen, :-()

    .40
    
    Well, you've been throwing "neo-cons" label around in a negative light,
    I was just curious as to what this term means to you.  The definition
    seems to vary, depending on to whom you are speaking.
    
    I find it interesting that you look upon those who wish to uphold the 
    Constitution in such a negative light.  It would also seem that
    Christians who wish to uphold said founding document deserve even more
    of your ire...at least in your mind ("closed-minded bigots").
    
    
    
    -steve

    
    well then Ron, I will have to brush up my wit.

  oh yes, by all means, turn this into another Christian/Constitutionalist
  discussion.  we never tire of it.

  we just can't get enough.

>       <<< Note 706.23 by LANDO::OLIVER_B "april is the coolest month" >>>

>    so jack, you're either an arrogant woman or you're invisible,
>    is that it?  

	i think you've pretty much nailed it, Oph.  

    Not my fault, mon, I didn't start it.  All I'm doing is tossing some
    logs on the fire.  8^)

Jack isn't an arrogant woman, so he must be invisible.

    .45
    
    Neo-cons WANT to be identified as such - much like the pride I feel in
    the Liberal label.  I'm not throwing the "neo-cons" label around in a
    negative light - I'm throwing the neo-cons themselves around.
    
    I don't bash Constitutionalists - cite me if you can.
    
    I didn't say anything about bigots - projection, perhaps?
    

    Glen:
    
    Well, for starters, travelgate comes to mind..and then there's
    Hillarycare which from what I understand is still under investigation.
    I would venture to say she had a major say in Presidents Clintons
    cabinet appointees...which by the way was intended to make the cabinet
    look more, "American" when in actuality it made our government a
    laughing stock...
    
    By the by Glen, before you take out the victim sword, let me point out
    to you that Nancy Reagan was nosey at times herself.  I draw no party
    line here.
    
    -Jack

re: .45 (Steve)

>    Well, you've been throwing "neo-cons" label around in a negative light,
>    I was just curious as to what this term means to you.  The definition
>    seems to vary, depending on to whom you are speaking.

Sorta like how you and other Republicans throw around the "liberal" label?

Oh, nothing like that at all, I'm sure...

\john

    /john:
    
    Talk is cheap.  The neocon label implies meanness.  The liberal label
    has a more tangible cost to it.  It always costs somebody something!
    
    

>>    Constitution in such a negative light.  
    
re. this really has nothing to do with the subject being discussed, I just
    couldn't find anywhere else to put it.


	Constitution? What Constitution?

Oh... the one that our founding forefathers wrote?

That was declared (mumble, mumble) when the state of emergency was declared
during the 2nd world war.

No president, democratic OR republican, since that time has officially
re-instated it.

So...

If you wanted to get *really* technical...

	Constitutional Rights? What Constitutional Rights?

    my mother, a dyed-in-the-wool republican (at the time, now
    she distrusts both parties equally) really liked elizabeth's
    style when she held that cabinet office.  but i remember
    her making the comment that politically, elizabeth would never
    last.  i asked her why.  she replied, "she's her own person,
    and, she's outspoken.  that just won't do".  my moms, one 
    savvy gal.  

 Z   Hillary marries a country-bumpkin college student, and she's riding his
 Z      coattails...
    
    Let's put it this way.  Libby Dole's resume supercedes Hillary's
    resume.  Anybody can be a lawyer.  Libby Dole made her own mark in the
    snow...she never needed Bob Dole.  Hillary on the other hand....help me
    with this somebody.  Any of you Hillary lovers out there....Anybody?
        
 Z    NOW I understand Republican logic!
    
    No...you're too intertwined in your emotional diatribes to comprehend
    anything of substance.
    
    

| <<< Note 706.52 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>


| Well, for starters, travelgate comes to mind..

	Explain how it was caused by being on the coat-tails of Bill. Explain
what they found so far. Explain who is going after her. 

| and then there's Hillarycare which from what I understand is still under 
| investigation.

	Explain this one, if you would. You totally lost me.

| I would venture to say she had a major say in Presidents Clintons cabinet 
| appointees...

	Then she is a woman who sttod on her own, and is not one riding
anyone's coat-tails. Cuz if she was, then she would have done what Bill wanted,
not made any decisions or add any input of her own. 



Glen

    >my moms, one savvy gal.  
    
     Sounds like the Glenns.

| <<< Note 706.57 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>


| Let's put it this way.  Libby Dole's resume supercedes Hillary's resume.  

	Ok, you made the statement. Now compare the two resumes in detail, if
you would. 

| Anybody can be a lawyer.  

	Jack, you go become a lawyer. 

| Libby Dole made her own mark in the snow...she never needed Bob Dole.  

	So Bob never had a hand in ANYTHING she did? Any position she had
gotten? 




Glen

  supersede

  and while we're at it:

  pejorative
  credence

    
    Are we gonna get into that revival thing again???
    

    Glen, no...I will address some of these things.  Read the papers or
    watch CSPAN for the rest.
    
    L. Dole holds 2 degrees from Harvard and she has extensive governmental
    experience in six administrations.  Hillary Clinton has a degree from
    Wellesley and Yale and has extensive experience in the private sector.
    She has very little Washington experience and because of her husband,
    was able to serve on 5 Board of Directors.  Nepotism Glen.
    
    Hillary has no experience in the medical field or in the insurance
    industry.  Hillary has been implicated in the Travelgate incident. 
    Even if not guilty, she should in no way have even been implicated.
    She should have started her own law practice in DC...just stayed the
    hell out of everything.
    
    -Jack

>        <<< Note 706.63 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

>    Even if not guilty, she should in no way have even been implicated.

	{boggle}

    Ahhhh....let me try that again.
    
    Hillary Clinton should not be involved in policy to the point where she
    could be implicated.
    
    

    .53
    
    Exactly the same same, John.
    
    I just wanted to know what his personal view of "neo-con" was.  Nothing
    more.

    .55
    
    Yes, you have a point.  But as long as we are pretending to follow our
    founding document, I will continue to argue in favor of those who
    support it. 

>                <<< Note 706.67 by ACISS2::LEECH "extremist" >>>
>   I will continue to argue in favor of those who
>   support it. 

	thereby surprising the hell out of all of us.

	Jack, again, are you saying that mz dole had no help from her husband's
clout? 

		 -------|------|------------
                        ++    ++
                        ||---M||
                        ||     |
                       /\-------\
                      (00)       \
                      (  )        *
                    /
                 moo?
    

>>   Yes, you have a point.  But as long as we are pretending to follow our
>>    founding document, I will continue to argue in favor of those who
>>    support it. 
    
    Then again, it would be nice if a few million people pointed this out
    to our illustrious government and demanded that it be reinstated...
    
    I've been doing this for the last several years, along with others I
    know, regardless of who's in office. I'm just hoping more people will
    join in.
    
    And God forbid, the government doesn't decide to leave it as is and
    then declare that there is no Constitution to follow... However, I
    beleive (or at least hope) that this is unlikely...
    

               \|/ ____ \|/
                @~/ ,. \~@
               /_( \__/ )_\ --what in the wide, wide world of sports is
               ~  \__U_/  ~   going on here?

    .72
    
    The government ignores the people.  Many remain fooled, however,
    as we are thrown a bone every now and then, just to keep us off guard.
    
    The proof is in the pudding.  Neither dims nor pubs will bring about
    the drastic changes necessary to re-instate true Constitutional law,
    nor will they save us from bankruptcy (though they may possibly delay
    the inevitable by a few more years).
    
    When they argue over reducing automatic COLAs from 11% to 6% (and can't
    even push that much through), real spending cuts are completely out of 
    the question.
    
    If our FF were alive today, they would be leading a rebellion.  Compare
    current governmental control/taxation to that which England imposed on
    the colonies.  Our own government has become worse than the "crown"
    that the colonials rebelled against.
    
    
    -steve

Z    Jack, again, are you saying that mz dole had no help from her
Z    husband's clout? 
    
    That's exactly what I'm saying.  Libby Dole earned her stature through
    personal merit.  Do you doubt that she could have done this on her own
    or do you really believe that women from both parties can excell?

    Jack,
    
    I personally like Libby Dole, even if she was partially responsible for
    the breakup of a marriage of 21 years that still had a dependent child. 
    
    I would like to see more of her, instead of having her play the staying
    home and baking cookies routine.  
    
    BTW if you think she would have gotten her cabinet post without having
    had powerful connections in the government, you obviously haven't
    followed politics very long.  
    
    I predict that if she does get stuck with the position of first lady,
    whe will be savaged if she goes back to her job at the Red Cross,
    unless they decide it is a "little job" by the same people who
    helped put her hubby into the presidency.  She doesn't do much for the
    kinder-kuchen-kirch family values image.  
    
    BTW OJM, when did you pass the bar, or when is your test date coming
    up? 
    
    meg

    we live in a police state.  the founding mamas
    and the papas would roll over in their graves on top
    of each other if they ever knew this.

    
    
    Does she have big baps?  Is she a goer??????
    
    
    guess who........

    .77
    
    Hey!  You're finally catching on.  Good for you, Oph.

    steve, i'm surprised you're not out in montana readying
    yourself for the great revolution.

    If there is a great revolution to ready for, it will not start in
    Montana.  It is my hope that it started at the polls in 1994, and will
    continue in the Pres. election of 1996.

 Z   I would like to see more of her, instead of having her play the
 Z   staying home and baking cookies routine.  
    
    Yes, actually I would too.  Let's face it Meg, arrogant politicians and
    arrogant first ladies don't cut it.  Our society still isn't ready for
    that.  Libby Dole could be just as forthright as Hillary.  She has the
    resume and the experience to do so.  Libby Dole will be written in
    history under a favorable light...not because she stood behind Bob
    waving and smiling; but because she made her mark in Washington and did
    so with a decent disposition.  I don't think Nancy Reagan or Hillary
    Clinton will share that spotlight.  
        
 Z   BTW if you think she would have gotten her cabinet post without
 Z   having had powerful connections in the government, you obviously haven't
 Z   followed politics very long. 
    
    Well, I guess ultimately everybody gets where they are through
    connections.  I guess once again it comes down to perceptions.  I will 
    never understand why feminists magnetize themselves to outspoken
    leaders with arrogant demeanors.
    
    In regards to the bar, Meg, I have always been of the belief that
    ANYBODY in this country can achieve if they crave the goal bad enough.
    Becoming an attorney is the last thing I would want to aspire to. 
    Simply not interested in it.  
    
    -Jack

    By the way, male politicians will be measured in history by their
    demeanor as well.  This isn't a gender thing.

   .82  I'm curious - you're throwing this word "arrogant" around 
	a lot.  Other people use it to describe Mrs. Clinton.  What
	is it that's "arrogant" about her?  Every time I've seen her
	being interviewed or what-not, she has struck me as being very
	sincere, intelligent, and composed (maybe there's a criminal lurking
	just under the surface, but that's yet to be determined, of course).
	Regardless, she doesn't strike me as "arrogant".  What is it about
	her, Jack?

    Di:
    
    many myn find her arrohgant, must be a gender thang!

  .85  oh yes, well _that_ really explains it, ron.

I read a quote attributed to Hillary. This was during a conversation in
which Hillary was demanding that certain information not be divulged in
the course of the Whitewater proceedings. 

        "I mean, we are the President."
        
I can't recall the source, but I do recall that I was reading it in a
usually neutral document.

If that's not arrogance, neither was "Le etat ce mois."

Also conjures up memories of the play "The Emperor Jones":

        "De law don't mean a shuck to de Emperor!"
        
Art

| <<< Note 706.75 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| That's exactly what I'm saying.  Libby Dole earned her stature through
| personal merit.  Do you doubt that she could have done this on her own
| or do you really believe that women from both parties can excell?

	Jack, apparently you think this. You will allow Libby to make it on her
own, even with an influencial hubby (even more influencial than Clinton), bit
don't allow that same thing for Hillary.


Glen

	Milady, Jack dislikes Hillary, so she is arrogant. Jack likes Libby, so
she is intelligent. Pretty simple, no? :-)

 >  .82  I'm curious - you're throwing this word "arrogant" around 
	>a lot.  Other people use it to describe Mrs. Clinton.  What
	>is it that's "arrogant" about her?

  Assumed authority and position of which she was not elected by the
  people for, and used it to spend $14m in developing a universal
  healthcare plan, about which she lied as to how it was developed and
  who was contributing to that development, in an attempt to move 1/7
  of the US economy under federal control.

  Yes, some of us find this very arrogant.

  Doug.

    .81
    
    but steve, don't you think that things have gotten so
    out of hand (after all, we live in a police state) that
    the mere election of mediocre politicians only serves to 
    prolong the status quo, hastening the downfall of our society
    and further rendering the constitution null and void?
    
    i mean, doncha?

       <<< Note 706.77 by LANDO::OLIVER_B "april is the coolest month" >>>

    >the founding mamas and the papas would roll over in their graves
   
     I have a sudden craving for a ham sandwich..

     daryll

 I'm dreaming about California..

I hope you realize that this is going over the heads of the 'box
whippersnappers.

    
    	Not all of them.
    
    	Unless I've graduated from "whippersnapper" to something a bit
    	less inferior-sounding.
    

Yeah, define "whippersnapper"...

daryll

    .96
    
    whippersnapper:  A person regarded as insignificant and pretentious. 
    Usually a great deal younger than the person using the epithet.

    
    	OK, then I guess I do qualify.
    

    .91
    
    Wrong assumption, Oph.  We are not in a police state, currently.  We
    are dealing with the evolution of unchecked federal power,
    which WILL lead to a police state unless the tide is turned.
    
    Whether it is happening by conspiracy, chance, or nature of the beast
    matters not one tiddle- at least when looking at the end result.
    
    
    -steve 

    Shawn woould know what was going on being an afficianado of bad music
    and all.  

    
    	Of course you meant "an affeceonado of crappy music".
    

    RE: .81  Steve Leech

    > If there is a great revolution to ready for, it will not start in
    > Montana.  It is my hope that it started at the polls in 1994, and will
    > continue in the Pres. election of 1996.

    It didn't continue in the 1995 elections and the prospects don't look
    good for 1996 so far, either.

    A recent conservative op-ed piece (in our paper the other day) described
    the use of the word 'revolution' to describe the 1994 elections as a
    mistake.  ('Conservative revolution' is an oxymoron, he said.)  :/

    He suggested using the term 'conservative EVOLUTION', but I figured
    you'd balk at that one (bigtime)!  :)

    Maybe you'd like 'conservative creation' better.

    RE: Sec. of Commerce

    Was Libby Secretary of Commerce or Secretary of Transportation?  Or
    did she serve in both at different times?


    RE: Voting for Libby

    Personally I prefer Kirkpatrick.  She's not afraid to speak her mind
    and tell people they're ugly and their mother dresses them funny.

    -- Dave

    Suzanne:
    
    The contract with America may or may not have been a sham.  But it is a
    far cry better than the apathy that went on under Foley and Mitchell.
    
    Snore.....

    Police state?  We denizens of the 60's wish you rightists would stop
    appropriating our mantras.  Of course, 60's left-wing
    anti-establishmentarians were repudiating right-wing oppressive tactics,
    while 90's right-wing anti-governmentalists are repudiating... uhm...
    erhh... uhhh... right-wing oppressive tactics!
    
    Hey!  It turns out we actually have a common enemy!  Viva la
    revolution!
    

    The "Power to the People" that you so cleaced to in the 1960's built
    the foundation for a framework of the dysfunctionalism we see today.
    
    The Power to the people we speak of today is going back to a
    Constitutional government.  Not the freedom to act irresponsibly.

    .106
    
    You're confusing 60's radicalism with Nixon and Johnson's social 
    engineering.  And it was nothing short of a reclamation of the rights
    of the people from the "heavy-hand of government".  Sound familiar?
    
    Now, see if you can respond to my actual claim - that the targets of
    left and right-wing extremists during these periods have been
    instruments of government put in place by right-wing ideologies.
    
    I'll give you a starter: J. Edgar Hoover...
     

	and the answer is...




	light red sequence dresses!

    
    	Does it really matter in which order they're worn?