Conference back40::soapbox

 What the heck are these cows mad about anyway?

    
    
    I think having sheep meat in their feed.
    

    
    
    
    .0 doesn't it seem wierd that the beef industry is worth 3 billion a
    year but if all the cattle are slaughtered it will cost 30 billion in
    compensation?
    
    
    

    
		 -------|------|------------
                        ++    ++
                        ||---M||
                        ||     |
                       /\-------\
                      (00)       \
                      (  )        *
                    /
                I'm a happy cow.
    

RE: 14.6946 by BRITE::FYFE "Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or" 

> There are similarities between mad-cow and a rare disease that affects
> elderly people, 

And some young people that ate British beef before 1989.


> there is no scientific connection between the two.

The same cause for both is not "beyond a reasonable doubt",  but it's the
best explanation.


Phil

    
      re, .3 - why ?  That implies there are 10 years beef on the hoof,
     more or less.  If Jack Daniels sells 2 million gallons of 8-year-old
     whiskey a year, how much whiskey would you expect to find at the
     Jack Daniels distillery ?
    
      bb

    can these cows seek legal repesentation and sue?

    
    
    	Question is, what will they do with all the cows after
    	they've slaughtered them?
    

    they're incerating them right now. 
    

    Barbie time!

re: bb

Ten years is a mite old for beef. Typical slaughter age is at full
growth - around 2-3 years. It _does_ get tougher with age, but then
we're talking about the UK, so mebbe they don't mind.

Won't Barbie get Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease when she eats incinerated cow?

I'm sorry, I shouldn't be joking about this.  I feel offal about my behavior.

 .12  open mouth, insert hoof.

    Do they incarcerate them before incerating them?

    Dunno, horns of a dilemma an' all that.

    
    these last few replies have been udderly ridiculous.

    Oh, they'll get worse.  The last few were just a steak in the ground.

    
    	Well done, Colin.
    

    
    well the loin starts here.

    
    Please, no mooooore!

>> There are similarities between mad-cow and a rare disease that affects
>> elderly people, 
>
>And some young people that ate British beef before 1989.

 That should have read 'mostly elderly people'.

>The same cause for both is not "beyond a reasonable doubt",  but it's the
>best explanation.

Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease has been around for quite some time and has remained
rare. The recent connection between it and MCD is one that has not been
proven, but seems rather convenient. 

The connection between the two seems to be the behaviour of a protien which
changes for the worse, for reasons not yet understood. That in of itself
does not indicate a contageous link between cows and people.

Much of the article in .0, as written, should be taken with a grain of salt.

Doug.

    
    why hank, you have a beef with these puns?

    Hide! the cow's outside. 

    
    	How long have you been waiting to use that one??
    
    	8^)
    

    Since I was about four.

    To paraphrase  Noel COWard:
    
    only mad cows and Englishmen go out in the noonday sun...

Re 10 years of beef, beef cattle are slaughtered at 2 years of age, 
apparently.

My personal theory on the ban is that hysteria within other countries is 
deliberately being whipped up in order to further their own cattle markets.  
This is probably just another case of Britain being penalised for being 
honest, I'd be very surprised if there're no cases of BSE in other EU countries.

Chris.

 Mad *cows*?  I wonder how the sheep feel about being ground up and 
 becoming cow chow..

>    Europe's panic about the vague prospect of a CJD epidemic overshadowed
>    a warning from the World Health Organisation that the world faced a
>    real threat from tuberculosis, a disease the developed world believed
>    it had conquered.

>    WHO said tuberculosis could kill 30 million people in the next decade.

Probably the result of excesses from the "If it makes money, do it" generation.

    How are the stocks doing today?

    I made a boullion.
    

    you'll roux the day.

>Probably the result of excesses from the "If it makes money, do it" generation.
    
    Based upon what (beyond your bias against capitalism)?

    you mean I'll worry myself into an early gravy?

    go ahead.  stew in your own juices.

Biased against 'capitalism'? No, I'm biased against greed.

How did tuberculosis rise the first time? Unregulated use of coal wasn't it?
Miners having to work in perilous conditions wasn't it? Sending the ash into
the environment while it was used to power machinery wasn't it?

But I'm glad to see I got your hackles raised for change.

    au jus have to say that?

    nah.  you're souper.

    
    Live Cattle Futures: Settlement Prices as of 03/22/96
    
    MTH/           --- SESSION ---                  PT    EST   ---- PRIOR 
    DAY ----
    STRIKE  OPEN    HIGH     LOW    LAST    SETT    CHGE  VOL   SETT 
    
    LC LIVE CATTLE
    APR96  64.625  64.750  64.300  64.625  64.650     +5  4465  64.600  
    JUN96  64.050  64.250  63.800  64.250  64.200    +25  3782  63.950  
    AUG96  63.050  63.400  62.875  63.250  63.275    +22  1753  63.050  
    OCT96  63.925  64.225  63.775  64.225  64.150    +22  1234  63.925   
    DEC96  63.075  63.500  63.075  63.500  63.450    +37   794  63.075  
    FEB97  63.100  63.450  63.100  63.450  63.425    +37   148  63.050   
    APR97  64.300  64.400B 64.275  64.400B 64.400    +15    47  64.250     
    
    
    
    

    
    <---- Glen will be happy

	Took me a couple of minutes to get that... cute. :-)

    
      ok, ok, 10 years is a tad aged fer steak.  But there still have
     to be 10 times as many cattle as are slaughtered for the herd to
     be worth 10 years income.  Perhaps they have to slaughter all the
     dairy cattle as well ?
    
      bb

    Maybe it has to do with putting people out of business?

    Maybe it has to do with the collateral slaughter.

    "Not the SHEEP! The COWS you IDIOTS!!!!"

          
    
    .43
    
    Thats the point of compensation right? So that they can buy more cows.
    
    If you bought a cow at 10 dollars and sold it for $100 normally,
    why would the government have to pay $1000 to have it destroyed instead
    of paying $100 for it to be eaten.
    
    That is where 3 billion (current gross per year) and 30 billion 
    (estimated cost to replace cattle) don't fit to me.
    
    
    
    

    
    
    
    
    BTW is there a cure for CJD?
    
    

    the only cure is death.

    
    
    
    .47 So the cattle are cured all the time then? :)
    
    

    100% success rate.

    
    
    	I am curious, how is this thing transmitted? Wouldn't  cooking the
    	meat thoroughly kill the bacteria or virus?
     
    	Did all 10 have steak tartare?? and when did the 10 die, all 
    	within short intervals or 1 death/decade?
    
    	Seems like a slow news day.... anything goes to make a mountain
    	out of a mole hill and sans actual facts probably.
    
    

>    	I am curious, how is this thing transmitted? Wouldn't  cooking the
>    	meat thoroughly kill the bacteria or virus?
 
the disease is understood to be confined to the brain and spinal column.  It 
would have been transmitted through offal, which used to contain these items, 
and is included in cheap burgers & sausages, economy mince, dodgy pies, etc.  
Cooking doesn't seem to kill it.
    
It's transmitted between cattle as parts of ground up carcasses are included 
in cattle feed to provide calcium, etc.  I think this practice is quite 
common.

>    	Did all 10 have steak tartare?? and when did the 10 die, all 
>    	within short intervals or 1 death/decade?
 
maybe, maybe not, but the actual meat is said to be unaffected.
   
>    	Seems like a slow news day.... anything goes to make a mountain
>    	out of a mole hill and sans actual facts probably.
    
there's certainly a lot of that going about, especially when someone can turn 
it to their own advantage (the ideal excuse for governments to protect their 
own markets, for example)

Chris.

          I'm a cow
            I'm so mad I could Howl

                                   . 'Ware the beef.
                          (___) . .
                          (o o)   
                       ++--\_/--++
                       //|     |||
                       \\\     /||
                        ~ \   /  ~                         
                          / W \                          
                          || ||                            
                          || ||                         
                    ------~~-~~----                         
    

    
      .53 is that allowed? He should be wearing undies.....

	It was utterly disgusting! :-)

>	It was utterly disgusting! :-)

surely you mean `udderly disgusting'?

Crap-Jokes`R'Us.

RE: 688.50 by MARIN::WANNOOR

> I am curious, how is this thing transmitted? Wouldn't cooking the meat
> thoroughly kill the bacteria or virus?

The temperature that kills the sheep version of this bug show that  it
seems to be a protein-based virus.  It can survive temperatures higher than
the breakdown temperatures of DNA and RNA,  the usual genetic material. 
Temperatures high enough to destroy proteins do kill it,  however there
will not be steak left to eat.  


Phil

    the problem with this thing is that it can have an incubation period of
    up to ten years (much like AIDS). little research has been done on its
    behavior other than it will kill you. Little is understood as to how
    much tainted beef must be consumed, how age may effect your chances,
    etc...
    
    McDonalds has pulled the burgers from the menu over there and beef is a
    huge "on sale" item right now.
    
    i'm wondering that if the source of this is sheep, how come the disease
    cannot be contracted from the consumption of sheep. anyone know?

RE: 688.58 by WMOIS::GIROUARD_C

> i'm wondering that if the source of this is sheep, how come the disease
> cannot be contracted from the consumption of sheep. anyone know?

Science had a article on this a while ago,  I didn't save a copy.  From
memory,  sheep do have the disease,  but it's not a real common sheep
disease.  People do seem to get the disease from sheep,  but at a level
that was hard to document.  A rare disease becomes somewhat less rare. 


Phil

    
    As well as that, there appear to be very few sheep offal products on
    the market (lamb burgers anyone?) thus minimising the risk.
    
    
    I.

Good discussion someone found on the web and posted in vaxcat::ef96 82.35

Science 15 March 1996, pp. 1493-1495 has a discussion of protein folding
that may relate.


Phil

    A cure for the mad cow disease ?
    
    Treat the cows like politicans and amputate the brains.
    
    As easy as that  !
    
    Kurt
                                                          

    Wow, you can eat sheep too? Finding out they could be used to produce
    wool was a bonus, but you can eat them too? 

    I can understand how this would look like a bit of a hoot to some
    boxers, but there are quite a few farmers I know who will be wiped 
    out over this. It's hard seeing your livelyhood going down the drain
    but, if the governement chooses slaughter, even harder seeing healthy
    animals you have raised slaughtered.  I remember the great Foot and 
    Mouth outbrake in the 60s when thousands of cattle where put down,
    we lost two good friends to suicide.
    

    If the farmers stand out of the way, they shouldn't get wiped out.

RE: 688.63 by POLAR::RICHARDSON "Alrighty, bye bye then."

> Wow, you can eat sheep too?

Ask the truck shooter.


Phil

    
        Maybe the cure for Mad cow disease is to sit and listen to the
    poor cow's problems, then instead of being mad she'll be happy! 8*)
    
    

    .65
    
    Where would you suggest they stand?  The French Rivera, Athens, Rome.
    When you live where you work you can't "get out of the way".
    

    Hide in a closet somewhere when the shooting starts.

    
    	Glenn, I think she missed your attempt at humor in .65
    
    	She hasn't quite learned to think like a 'BOXer yet.
    

    What do you mean `attempt' ?

    
    	Well, she didn't get it, so relative to her it was an attempt.
    
    	I got it, so relative to me it was much more than an attempt.
    	So much more.
    

    Maybe all the beef farmers should start growing tobacco instead - now
    there's an industry that doesn't do any harm to anyone!

    Well, growing tobacco doesn't hurt anyone, really. It provides jobs and
    lets people work outside and get fresh air. It's the smokers that are
    ruining everything for them!

    
    	RE: .74
    
    	Talk about a vicious circle ... my brain hurts just thinking about
    	that.
    

    re: .73
    
    Perhaps if all the cows smoked cigarettes, they'd be
    "cured". :-)
    
    

    
    well, smoking is hazerdous to your health. take me for example.

Please.

 

 ha ha..I just flew in from Baltimore..and boy are my arms tired...





 Jim

re .60:

What about the Scots and their haggis?

    I hear that the British Parliament has decided not to kill all of the
    cows in Britain. They've decided they want to keep the royal family.

    I got a luverly bit of rump steak yesterday at a dead cheap price.
    
    Super.
    

    -1 check in with us in ten years...

    .70
    
    There are some things that are too serious and painful for some people 
    to joke about.  This whole issue is too close to home for me having 
    been a cattle farmer and having eaten and fed my family British beef 
    for about 32 years,  not the expensive stuff either but kidney and 
    beef liver. 
    
    And, if I ever start thinking like a BOXer I'll really get worried. 
    BTW how many of you have been eating British beef? 

>                      <<< Note 688.85 by TOOK::GASKELL >>>
    
>    And, if I ever start thinking like a BOXer I'll really get worried. 

	yes, we all have one collective brain that we take turns
	using.  it's tiny, so easy to transport.  pretty despicable
	lot, we are.

    once you start thinking, then you can start worrying about "thinking
    like a BOXer." /hth

    This reminds me of an old bad joke about two New Hampshire farmers who
    were discussing the termination of an old sick dog. 
    
    1st farmer: Took ol Spot out back and had to put him down
    2nd farmer: Was he mad? (as in did he have froth around his mouth)
    1st farmer:No, but I don't think he was happy.             

    |yes, we all have one collective brain that we take turns
    |using.
    
    it's _my_ turn to use the boxbrain!! 

    If you want to see tragedy, check out Canada's east coast fishery.
    Entire towns are shutting down. These cows can be replaced because
    they're under no threat of Spanish trawlers.
    
    Some people gotta moan, some people gotta laugh.

    That's interesting. I'm not sure that we have something like that.
    Canada is hoping that the grand banks will eventually come around.

    .93  
    
    you could say they're banking on it.

    They won't come around until people leave them alone (or at least
    drastically reduce harvests). Upsetting the balance of nature is
    extremely unwise. Once the maximum sustainable yield is determined,
    politics must take a back seat to the realities of the ecosystem. It's
    a mere matter of political will.

    Mothe Nature's political will is stronger than any nation's.  

    There was a goverment buy the dairy cows and give you a lump check for
    a buy out so you don't do any dairy cowing/milking for 10 years. So, a
    local farmers time is up, and they are looking into a new herd.

    I think there's a moratorium in place on Canada's east coast, to last
    an indefinite period of time.  There are programs in place to help
    fishermen through the transition; I'm not familiar with details.  In
    Newfoundland the economy has never exactly been broadly diversified. 
    For much of the history of the place many of the inhabitants were more
    or less subsistence fisherfolk.  There's some pulp and paper and
    mining, and in the last 20 years hopes have been placed in offshore oil
    development.  But the end (?) of the fishery is a major crisis,
    economic and social.
    
    -Stephen

    
    .97
    
    .......what?!
    

>    they're under no threat of Spanish trawlers.

Bring back the Age of the Buccaneers!

George, is English your native language?

  put your head down on the desk and take a little nap.  then try
  reading it again, deb.  it's not guaranteed to help, but you'll
  at least feel a little better.

Well, after considering all the stories and info, I'm pretty sure that this 
whole episode is just another media-created hyped up piece of crap, sadly with 
terrible financial consequences (but when have the media ever worried about 
acting in a responsible manner?)

If there's a risk, then people are already infected anyway.  If there's not, 
well, there's not.  Either way, I don't see any point in depriving myself of a 
nice piece of steak, so I may as well take advantage of the low prices and 
learn how to cook it properly.

Chris.

RE: 688.103 by CBHVAX::CBH "Mr. Creosote"

> I'm pretty sure that this whole episode is just another media-created
> hyped up piece of crap,

I agree that you are mostly correct.  Rather Sad Fear Mongering is in vogue
over in EF96.  While we can't know the exact risk,  the risk is fairly
small,  unless the cow version is a lot different than the sheep version. 
And as there are only a few cases (~10) in the past seven years since the
heaviest exposure,  I doubt if there is that much of a difference.

Lamb and mutton have been eaten for thousands of years,  and they have
always had a very roughly similar risk.  The only difference is that beef,
for a while,  had and to a lesser extent has such a risk.  I don't see much
cause to ban mutton.  Or beef,  British or not.

Risks on the very rough order of 1 in a million are rarely worth panic, 
but prudent measures to prevent such risks can be worthwhile and warranted. 
It sounds like these measures were taken back in 1989.  The problem was
that in 1989 there were government statements that there was _zero_ risk. 
Changing from an official policy that the risk is non-zero to a more
rational statement that the risk is unknown in exact size but is someplace
between very small and very very small is what seems to have triggered this
panic.


Phil

    I`m also sure this is media induced hysterical crap. A good excuse for
    low profile MP`s to get their names mentioned by saying "this could be
    worse than the AIDS epidemic". Yeah,right.
    
    However,what goes around comes around. If the greedy farmers hadn`t cut
    corners and fed the poor vegetarian cows feed made from ground up 
    sheep spines and who knows what other disgusting bits,then this problem
    probably wouldn`t have occured.
    

    Factory farming does strange things to the way we grow things, I can't
    say that it is the best.  
    
    meg

    I thought we were talking about cows here, not factories.

    Putting things that are not natural feed into a cow to save money is
    working into factory farming IMO.  
    
    meg

    
    
    
    Has anything been said about dairy products?
    
    
    

    
.87

<<once you start thinking, then you can start worrying about 
"thinking like a BOXer." /hth>>

No, no you've got it the wrong way round...

When I stop thinking and start worrying then I will be able 
to think like a BOXer.

.86

      <<yes, we all have one collective brain that we take turns
       using.  it's tiny, so easy to transport.  pretty  despicable 
       lot, we are.>>
                       
So, if it's Oliver's turn to use it today, when is it Levesque's turn? 8^)

    
    >Has anything been said about dairy products?
    
    
    Shhhhhhhh....
    
    They'll just tell you to go to the "Conspiracy" topic...
    
    
    hth
    

    Can't we just make cat food out of them?

    
    Then we'd have mad cats infected with mad cow disease...
    

    Maybe Texas can import 20,000 longhorns to help rebuild the stock, 
    or perhaps some of those weird-lookin brahma (?) cattle from Florida.
    
    Not exactly Guernseys or Jerseys, but perhaps they're mad-resistant.

>Has anything been said about dairy products?
    
shouldn't this be in the `conspiracy' topic?  :)

Chris$predictable.

>    Then we'd have mad cats infected with mad cow disease...
    
That's already happened, apparently.

Chris.

    
    	Ahah!!  Finally, a reason to wipe 'em all out!!
    
    	Now if we could only start a "mad cow" epidemic in the dog pop-
    	ulation.
    
    	And next stop ... Cleveland!!
    

    How does one diagnose a mad cat?  Cats having no yardstick for sanity. 

    
    re: .115
    
    >shouldn't this be in the `conspiracy' topic?  :)
    

>                                 -< See .111 >-

I did, that's why I entered it, hence the `predictable' suffix...
HTH,

Chris.

    Anyone read Crichton's latest book...Lost World, I think?

    Its a follow on to Jurassic Park, with some scientists finding
    the island where they had the real factory where the Jurassic Park
    dinosaurs were grown.

    At the end, they abandon the part (just like in JP) but this time
    they dont worry about bombing the place.  They dinosaurs are all
    dying out as they had been fed sheep and beef infected with BSE.
    bob

    What about the lycine contingency?

    
    I read it.  But that's not what happened as I recall.
    
    In the first book, The dinos were gengineered to be unable to produce a
    certain amino acid (linoleic?) which they could only get from the food
    given to them in JP.  THis would prevent escapees from surviving
    off the island.  IN book 2, escapees were raiding soy bean farms to
    get linoleic acid, or drinking dino pee to get it.
    
    Incidentally, I though this whole book was simply a rehash of the
    first, with an eye to a movie sequel.  The worse part was Crichton
    back-tracking to the first book to try and cover plot deficits and
    errors - in particular the gaping holes in social behaviour that would
    come about as a result of gengineering a whole population.
    
    Colin
    

What unique food is available in Jamaica Plain?

>What unique food is available in Jamaica Plain?


 Nothin but plain Jamaican food.

RE: 688.109 by MIMS::WILBUR_D

> Has anything been said about dairy products?

The infectious agent,  a protein,  is concentrated in the nervous system. 
Brain or spinal cord,  used in sausages and such,  have the highest risk. 
Meat,  liver,  etc is much lower risk.  Dairy products are minimal risk.


Phil

    >What unique food is available in Jamaica Plain?
    
    jerked meats

    .118
    
    >>How does one diagnose a mad cat?<<
    
    When it comes when you call, and eats what you put down in front of it.

    
    Every day I get happier and happier that I have NEVER eaten meat/fish
    or chicken my whole 33yrs!
      

    >  Every day I get happier and happier that I have NEVER eaten
    >  meat/fish or chicken my whole 33yrs!
    
    1) The cows/fish/chicken are very grateful to you for abstaining.
    
    2) you'll never live to see 34 {he said darkly}.

    
    	Louisa, I think I'd starve if I had to live on vegetables and
    	other "harvested out of dirt" foodstuffs like that.
    

>>    	Louisa, I think I'd starve if I had to live on vegetables and
>>    	other "harvested out of dirt" foodstuffs like that.
  

No! try it. You will like it! If not for anything else, just for the fact its
more healthier.

Ever heard of "Mad Brocolli" desease?  

    
    
    <------
    
    great!!
    
    Let's you and I go pick some wild mushrooms some weekend.. okay???
    
    This'll make us more and more healthier than all the others also!!
    
    
    :)
    

What about The Attack of the Killer Tomatoes?  What about Triffids?
What about Audrey II?  Huh?  Huh?

I eat only vegetables that have died a natural death.

    .132
    
    > [vegetarianism is] more healthier.
    
    No, it's not.  It's just different.  The healthiest diet is the one
    that the body is built for, and the conformation of the teeth in the
    human mouth is a clear indication that the human body is built for a
    diet that includes meats.  It is possible to simulate a proper diet by
    choosing certain vegetarian combinations, but that doesn't mean that a
    vegetarian diet is healthier.

>>    that the body is built for, and the conformation of the teeth in the
>>    human mouth is a clear indication that the human body is built for a
  

	Also the length of the intestines (sp?) - Humans are halfway
	between that of a herbavoire and a true carnivor = both can and
	do work for us.

Pat

  .136  just don't fancy that "ore" ending, eh? ;>

    >   .136  just don't fancy that "ore" ending, eh? ;>
    
    'tis this ore that...

    
    
    	"more healthier" ??!!   Redundant and bad grammar alert!
    

    I always get a kick out of the vegetarian superiority complex. 

    It's no wonder they have a complex, walking around with socks and
    sandals all the time.

    
    	Soy beans have feelings too, but do we care?  No, of course
    	not ... we continue to exploit them, day after day, year
    	after year.
    
    	One day, they will decide to band together, and boy, will
    	we be sorry.
    

    nah,
    
    Soybeans are pre-born plants.  A pox on people who eat plant embryos.
    
    ;-)

    
    	What if you eat them after the 1st trimester?  Is that OK?
    

I always wondered whether vegetarians considered honey acceptible or not.

    So, it's okay to buy synthetic fibers which help pollute the whole
    environment then is it?

     That's different.

>    He has some numbers which support this saying you can grow enough
>    soy bean on 1 acre to feet N people. The same acre of land would

Well, I'm allergic to soybeans, so I guess I'd starve!

Seriously, though, my wife and I only have meat 2-3 times a week lately.
Mostly cuz it's too damn expensive rather than for any alleged health or
exploitation reasons...

My main argument against vegetarianism is, quite simply, animals aren't so
why should we be? Some live on almost nothing but raw, fresh meat.

    
    	re:  .142
    
    	Ok.  But eventually that tract of land will be completely
    	robbed of it's nutrients and *nothing* will grow there.
    	No food for animals or humans.  It's called "desertification".
    
    
    	While I'm becoming more and more discouraged by the info
    	coming out of my Env. Science class, it's very interesting
    	and informative.  I just wish it wasn't so late at night.
    

    
    	Desertification?  Isn't that what happens when QMI fails you
    	during the ISO audit?
    

    Big Macs are on sale here in Canada for 99 cents. That's - 0.05
    American. A pretty good deal.

    
    > It's called "desertification".
    
    this is what happens when you pass up the desert cart.

    
    They must be using British Beef.
    

    
    	Glenn, does that mean they GIVE you a nickel for every Big Mac
    	you request?
    
    	I don't see how they can make money like that, or keep up with
    	the orders.
    

    The term for a vegetarian who doesn't eat honey is a Vegan.  They also
    don't gelatin (it's made from bone marrow).

Nit: gelatin is made from bones and hides, but not from bone marrow.

    re Note 688.155 by BUSY::SLABOUNTY
    
    
    No they don't because I'm using Canadian dollars.

    .156
    
    > The term for a vegetarian who doesn't eat honey is a Vegan.
    
    I've always been amused by this one.  My impression, since I was a kid,
    has been that Vegans come from Vega.  In Vegas, maybe.

    You mean Jello (tm) is made from bones?  Euuuw...

    naw,
    
    Hides and hooves is the geletan thang

    .150
    
    > It's called "desertification".
    
    Let us be vew-w-wy caweful hewe.  The fact is that soybeans are a
    legume, and they actually IMPROVE the soil in which they are grown by
    fixing nitrogen.
    
    On the other hand, soybeans do not supply a complete protein mix; they
    must be combined with rice, maize, or some other grain.  People who eat
    only soybeans will starve to death.
    
    But it really is true that eating lower on the food chain is more
    efficient.  Beef is a very inefficient source of protein; it takes far
    more energy and nutrients to supply a gram of complete protein in the
    form of beef than to supply that same gram of protein in the form of
    red beans and rice.  Chickens are lower on the food chain than cattle
    are, but they're still relatively inefficient.  So inefficient, in
    fact, that farmers can make a significant saving in feed by collecting
    chicken$#!+ and adding it to what the chickens eat.  The birds can
    extract another significant amount of nutrition from it.

    .161  That's what I get for using MTV as a reference...  ;)

    Dick,
    
    One small nit.  There are vast tracts of land in the American west (yes
    I am including Mexico and Canada) where plant farming is not only
    impossible, but a waste of important resources, such as grasslands and
    topsoil.  I still find the growing of rice in California to be pretty
    paradoxical.  if the feds and CA hadn't gotten together on a water
    grab, the Colorado river would still flow into the Baja and that mess
    of megopolises (megopoli?) in So Cal would be nonexistant.  
    
    In some cases the raising of animals to eat (if grass fed and raised
    properly) is the most efficient use of the land for food.  
    
    meg

    .164
    
    Sometimes the most efficient use of the land is to let it the hell
    alone and give the ecosystem an infinitesimal chance of escaping our
    hamfisted approach to "stewardship."

>>My main argument against vegetarianism is, quite simply, animals aren't so
>>why should we be? Some live on almost nothing but raw, fresh meat.


	Quit going to school. Quit brushing your teeth. Heck quit having
 marital relationship.. just free sex.. even incest is fine..! ..
Animals aren't so so why should you!..

Thanks your note made my day..!

Ever heard a doctor advice on your health, "quit eating vegetables.. just eat
only meat" ..  NO! its always the otherway around!!! Why? clueless ?

>                    <<< Note 688.166 by EDSCLU::JAYAKUMAR >>>
>	Quit going to school. Quit brushing your teeth. Heck quit having
> marital relationship.. just free sex.. even incest is fine..! ..
> Animals aren't so so why should you!..

The benefits of doing all of these things are painfully obvious.

The benefits of vegetarianism are...?
"Doesn't exploit animals" - so what, animals exploit animals.
"Makes you healthier" - dubious.
"More efficient" - as someone pointed out, vast amounts of the American west
                   have no other practical use anyway.
"Cheaper" - ya got me there.

    .161
    
    Oh.  Well, that's much better.

    There is a sensual aspect to eating meat that simply is missing from
    any vegetarian dish I've ever had. If being a vegetarian works for
    you, go for it. But to assume an air of superiority over people who
    choose to eat meat looks utterly absurd. Of course, if looking utterly
    absurd works for you, go for it.

    
    >There is a sensual aspect to eating meat that simply is missing from
    >any vegetarian dish I've ever had.
    
    	I still say that nothing beats watching a woman eat an ice
    	cream cone.
    

    
    
    re: .170
    
    re: ice cream cone
    
    I know a young lady, who went to visit her folks down in Virginia one
    year. While there, she went out one night with her cousin to a local
    nightclub. They were having a contest there for the "Most sensual
    eating of a banana"
    
      She walked away with the $50 first prize...
    

    
    	RE: Deb
    
    	If I didn't know any better, I'd think that was an insult.
    

    re .170
    
         I agree 100%. 
    
    

    like Dennis Leary says, "Not eating meat is a choice, eating meat is an
    instinct." fact is that the human animal is engineered to eat meat.
    just because the human animal can sustain itself sans meat does not
    make it a healthier, more pleasing, more politically acceptable or
    socially correct.
    
    just for the record, i love almost all food and will eat just about
    any meat, fish, sauce or veggie. food is genuinely a common pleasure
    among the human animal. only the human animal could turn it into a
    battle field.

    What a stupid name ... Mad Cow Disease ... what's next?  
       
    Bi-polar Bovine Affliction?

    
    Its full name is Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE for short) but
    who wants to say that all the time?

    
    
    
    
    .176     You commented that humans are designed to eat meat.
    
    You probably 90% correct, it just depends on how you spec out
    humans life span (long enough to raise young or the outside
    possibility of 150 years) and the percentage of meat you think
    is normal for a human diet.
    
    Add high fat farm animals compared to lean wild animals or
    even the discovery of fire and cooked meat that makes it easier
    to digest and enjoy. 
    
    We eat meat and fat way beyond what we are designed for and for
    starters, regularly we gunk up the pump and pipes that keep us alive.
    
                    

    -1 i am 100% correct from an anatomical and evolutionary reference.
    
    we are meat eaters. a simple look at the mandible/teeth tells you that.
    
    re; the "we" in the over-consumption statement, to whom are referring?
    not me, i can assure you. 
    
    

>The benefits of doing all of these things are painfully obvious.

>The benefits of vegetarianism are...?
>"Doesn't exploit animals" - so what, animals exploit animals.
    
    No one can give you compassion for animals but I wouldn't knock it.
    
>"Makes you healthier" - dubious.
    
    Only in your opinion, but not what research tells us.
    
    Point: what diease can you get from a carrot?
    Now what diease can you get from...a cow?  Besides heart diease?
    
    It would seem self evident.
    
>"More efficient" - as someone pointed out, vast amounts of the American west
>                   have no other practical use anyway.
    
Even if I agreed that this was the best use for this land. It isn't enough	
    to feed all of America's taste for beef. That's why rain forests are
    burned ,to raise cattle in South America so they can import even more beef.
    
    I'd say supplying the worlds oxygen is a good use for rain forest.
    
    The planet has only so much resources and we are ripping through them.
    I don't believe eating plants is the best or only solution. It is one,
    I believe decreasing world population is the correct solution.
    
>"Cheaper" - ya got me there.
    
           

    
    
    .180 We are Omnivores and not designed very well to eat meat,
         our digestive tracts are too long.
    
    	We can eat meat, we just don't do it well it kills us over
    	time.
    
    
    	WE is in reference to the average American.
    
    
                             

    
      In recent years, US consumption of beef has slightly exceeded
     production, but the two are very nearly matched and have been
     for decades.  1950 : produced 22.1M lbs, consumed 21.7M lbs;
     1960 30.5M v. 31.5M; 1970 37.5M v. 39.5M; 1980 39.0M v. 41.0M;
     1988 (last year I have) 40.0M v. 42.4M.
    
      Per capita, per year, Americans eat 115 lbs red meats, 57 lbs
     poultry, 15 lbs fish, approx 277 lbs dairy, 64 lbs fats/oils,
     105 lbs fruit, 200 lbs veggies + 124 lbs potatoes, 141 lbs grains,
     153 lbs sweeteners, 10 lbs coffee, 10 lbs nuts, 1 lb tea, 5 lbs
     cocoa, and 7 lbs dried edible beans.
    
      bb

    Another factor in the "humans are designed/not designed to eat meat
    that doesn't seem to have been mentioned so far:
    
    We were also designed to CATCH that meat.  The energy expended in
    hunting offset the bad effects of eating meat.  Also, hunting being
    time and energy consuming, it was unusual to catch too much meat
    at one time and that catch probably fed the whole tribe.
    
    I think you are both right.  We need meat, but a quarter of what we
    presently eat; we need veggies, but 4 times more than we presently eat.
    And, as hunting meat is so very much easier than it was a thousand
    years ago, we, the average 1st world human, needs 100% more exercise than
    we is getting at present.                             

    Apparently the health benefits of vegetarianism do not fully compensate
    for the loss in food sensuality such a diet imposes, thus the need to
    affect a false sense of superiority.

    
    .185
    
    I never met a Vegetarian that acted superior, maybe you just feel
    inferior?
    
    

>    We eat meat and fat way beyond what we are designed for and for
>    starters, regularly we gunk up the pump and pipes that keep us alive.
    
If god didn't want us to clog up the plumbing he wouldn't have designed us 
with so many tees, elbows and valves.

I'm sure this must be true.

 Speaking of vegetarians, I like watching "Molly Katzen's cooking show"
 on PBS.  I watched a show last night which I'd taped last weekend and
 she had some recipes I'm going to try.



 Jim

    >I never met a Vegetarian that acted superior
    
     Oh, and I suppose you've never noticed their attempts to proselytize
    their omnivorous brethren by continually extolling the virtues of
    their "superior" diet, either. There are no so blind as those who
    refuse to see. 
    
    >maybe you just feel inferior?
    
    <guffaw!>

Some of the recipes in Molly Katzen's 1st book (Moosewood) are great.
Particularly the soups.  And the Indonesian rice salad.

    I know a vegegarian who acts superior to meat eaters.  
    
    If you walk into a health food store, you get slapped in the face with
    superiority.  Yessir.

    Diet is only half the battle.  Eating beef is irrelevant unless you
    have huge servings of beef every meal.  
    
    Sure, if you sit in front of the toob all day stuffing yourself with
    cheeseburgers and potato chips, you are going to have problems down the
    road, healthwise.  But if you have even a vaguely reasonable diet, you will
    be fine as long as you exercise regularly (and at a reasonable level of
    difficulty for your given conditioning).
    
    Even if you have a good diet, you need to exercise.  The body wasn't
    meant to be docile.  Exercise can prevent all manner of future
    ailments one may otherwise get without exercise.  
    
    The reason we have so many folks with heart disease, and the reason we 
    have so many fat kids today, is that we are a nation of couch potatos.  
    Kids sit in front of the tube every opportunity they get.  Why?  The
    parents set this example, that's why.  It is difficult to motivate your
    kids to go get some exercise while you are on the couch in front of the
    tv, stuffing yourself with snacks.  It's a "do as I say, not as I do"
    sort of deal, and it doesn't work well.  Parents need to set the right
    example- for themselves as much as for thier kids.
    
    If you are too busy to exercise, you need to quit something to make the
    time, if you care about your health at all.  
    
    So, it isn't really a matter of "vegetarians are healthier" or "meat is
    bad for you"...subjectively, under certain criteria, this CAN be true,
    but it is not the real issue.  I can eat what I want, in whatever
    quantities I like, without clogging my arteries or gaining weight (or
    more accurately, gaining fat...I normally gain weight when I train hard
    at the gym over a period of time).  My last cholosterol check was very
    good, as was the rest of my bloodwork, and my diet is quite far from
    the perfect balance (though I do try no to overdo things like pop,
    chips, and other empty calorie snacks).
    
    Now back to our silly "vegatarians v. meat-eaters" rathole.
    
    
    -steve                                                     

   bowlers live longer.

   this is a little-known fact.

    >No one can give you compassion for animals but I wouldn't knock it.
    
     So which animals are deserving of compassion? Herbivores, which need
    plant foodstuffs to stay alive (aka prey animals) or carnivores, which
    require a supply of meat to stay alive (aka predatory animals)? And
    where does that leave omnivores? Are they not also deserving of
    compassion? One gets the impression that your compassion for animals is
    based on an idyllic view of the food chain, in which animals play
    happily together when man is out of the picture. Methinks a few films
    on the Serengeti's (sp) food chain would disabuse you of that notion.
    
     There is nothing instrinsically less compassionate about a human
    eating flesh than another predatory animal eating flesh. Indeed, our
    methods of dispatching our dinner are frequently less pain/stress
    inducing than those of other predators.
    
     To me, it is compassionate to honor one's dinner by properly preparing
    it and ensuring it does not go to waste. Do you find there is more
    value in an animal living its entire life and dying, and decaying in
    the forest than that same animal going through another's digestive
    track on the way to its ecological recycling?
    
     Just as there is a difference between creating painted art and
    vandalizing soemthing with a can of spray paint, there is a difference
    between killing and eating animals and killing and wasting them.
    Whereas you eschew the use of paint altogether, I simply eschew
    vandalism.

    .193
    
    Must be the beer and the smoke...  8^)
    
    [I would LOVE to find a non-smoking league, fwiw, but I doubt there are
    enough bowlers in the state (who don't smoke) to fill up an entire
    league.  I have yet to figure out the bowling/smoking connection, but
    I'm working on it.  It seems that 98% of the bowlers in *every* adult
    league I've ever seen/been in, smoke.]

Bowling is blue collar.  Smoking (these days) is blue collar.

    
    
    
    .193
    
    
    It just seems that way. Like the good dieing young. :)
    

  .196  i think you might be on to something there.

    I wondered when the devil weed would get mentioned.
                   

    
		 -------|------|------------
                        ++    ++
                        ||---M||
                        ||     |
                       /\-------\
                      (@@)       \
                      (  )        *
                    /
               Mad cow snarf!
    

  or maybe it has something to do with lucky strikes.  that's
  a possibility.

Bowling is a gutter religion.

    Spare us, oh Lord

    Take care not to foul thyself when thou approacheth the lane lest He
    strike thee down by delivering a 7-10 split.  

    
>>    I never met a Vegetarian that acted superior, maybe you just feel
>>    inferior?
    
  Well .185 actually feels guilty. Its like those days when smoking was 
acceptable, and smokers used to feel the same way about non-smokers.  

    .181
    
    > Point: what diease can you get from a carrot?
    Counterpoint:  Carotene poisoning.
    
    The danger is in overconsumption not in consumption per se.  Like Chip,
    I monitor the amounts of all the foods I eat, and I'm quite careful
    about fats of both kinds.

    
    
    
    Of course heart diease is not the only link to meat,
    Cancer is also.
    
    

    Carrots?
    
    Lets see Carotene poisoning, hepatitis A, if you are sensitive to them
    allergic reactions from soil mold spoors, cancer for those same molds,
    pesticide intoxication..........
    
    Need more potentials?  There is no such thing as a completely safe
    food.  Food will kill you eventually, just as oxygen will, and both are
    addictive with withdrawal symptoms that are killer.
    
    meg

>                     <<< Note 688.181 by MIMS::WILBUR_D >>>
>    No one can give you compassion for animals but I wouldn't knock it.

Bet you can't name the number 1 source of $ for wildlife preservation and
management.
    
>    Only in your opinion, but not what research tells us.

Show me.

>    Point: what diease can you get from a carrot?

How about Solmonella (? gawd, I hate the American Heritage Dictionary!) for
starters? They do grow in the dirt, eh? Then we can go into Botulism, various
toxins such as found green potato(e) skin, mushrooms, etc.

>    It would seem self evident.

Especially if you've already made up your mind before looking at the
evidence.
    
> Even if I agreed that this was the best use for this land. It isn't enough	
>    to feed all of America's taste for beef. That's why rain forests are
>    burned ,to raise cattle in South America so they can import even more beef.

I didn't say it was the best use. I said it was the only practical use. If
you own it and decide the best use is for a prarie dog sanctuary, that's up
to you. Nor did I mention anything about rain forests - I totally agree that
slash and burn is a waste.

The deseases one might get out of vegetables, are so obscure and honestly I
have never heard of them. So how many do you think might have that Solmonella
or carotine? .0001% of Americans? Or how many % have any problems at all
because of vegetable consumption..?

	On the contrary, meat consumption...

    
    	Eat right, exercise, die anyway.
    

    .210
    
    > never heard of them.
    
    Oh, so now it's EDSCLU::JAYAKUMAR who determines what is good for you
    and what isn't.  If EDSCLU::JAYAKUMAR hasn't heard of it, it's not bad
    for you.  Pull the other one.

    
    
    
    >Bet you can't name the number 1 source of $ for wildlife preservation
    >management
    
    
    You would lose. I usually have at least a fishing license even if
    I gave up hunting because I like my head attached to my body and
    not shot off by Ya-Hoos that think they know what the word sportsman
    means. I don't live by my arguements, I just believe in them.
    
    

    
    hey, hey I'm white collar, I bowl and I smoke. puts that urban legend
    to bed.

    > 7-10 split
    
    I had one of those last night...

    re: .210
    
    True, but they also may not be consumed in the same quantities,
    so "rare" may only be a by-product of the rate of consumption, not
    the rate of occurrance.
    
    Also, with vegetables being nuked and engineered the way they are
    today, similar problems with vegetable lines may not be that far
    in the future.
    

    > On the contrary, meat consumption...
    
    Again, meat consumption is not the main problem (unless you overdo it). 
    The main problem is not enough exercise.  
    
    Now, of the two- vegetables and meat- you are likely to do more damage
    to yourself by eating meat than vegetables IF YOU DO NOT EXERCISE.
    
    
    -steve

>Note 688.180                     Mad Cow disease                      180 of 213
>WMOIS::GIROUARD_C                                     8 lines  28-MAR-1996 09:20
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    
>    we are meat eaters. a simple look at the mandible/teeth tells you that.
    
     Are you trying to direct me to our canines?
    
     Upland Gorillas, strict vegetarians, have canines.
    
         

    Are you sure about the Upland Gorillas?  I thought they were finally 
    observed eating some small animal like a squirrel or a mouse or some
    such.    

>>    Oh, so now it's EDSCLU::JAYAKUMAR who determines what is good for you
>>    and what isn't.  If EDSCLU::JAYAKUMAR hasn't heard of it, it's not bad
>>    for you.  Pull the other one.

I haven't heard it because its obscure..!

Do you mean that Somenella or Carotine is not obscure? Do you mean its as
prevalent as heart attack and cancer..?

"I haven't heard it" isn't what I was stressing. These deseases are obscure and
% of people suffering from it right now, are very very minuscule!. You just 
can't compare it to ones like cancer and heart attack. That was my point. 

I am sure you know what I mean.. but you just want to give a negative twist.

    
    I eat meat/fish/poultry beause I like the taste of them. I also eat
    fruits and vegtables as well. eat whatever makes you happy, because I
    got news for you, you're going to die some day anyway.

    
    Salmonella.  Carotene.
    

>> eat whatever makes you happy, because I got news for you, you're going to 
>>die some day anyway.

Try smoking and do drugs.. I am sure it will give you the sensual feeling and
make you happy. You may just die a couple of decades sooner, but you are going
to die anyway!

 Mad cow disease peoples, Mad cow disease!

    
    Spoilsport.
    

    
    I *do* smoke. Funny you mention it, but it does feel sensuous when
    I light one up.

    >    I never met a Vegetarian that acted superior
    
     Mr Wilbur, meet Mr Jayakumar.

re .220:

How about botulism?  Heard of that?  Caused by improperly canned vegetables. 
Botulin toxin is one of the most deadly substances known.  It's even more toxic
than plutonium.

    
    
    	Oh please.  Now you're comparing nicotine and drugs
    	to eating meat??!!
    
    	Unless you eat *only* organically grown veggies and fruit,
    	you're doing just as much harm to your body by consuming
    	the pesticides and herbicides used, as we 'carnivores' are.

>                    <<< Note 688.220 by EDSCLU::JAYAKUMAR >>>
> I haven't heard it because its obscure..!
> Do you mean that Somenella or Carotine is not obscure? Do you mean its as
> prevalent as heart attack and cancer..?

Hoooo boy...
That's about what they said in the Chinese restaurant after I got Salmonella
there...
Do yourself a favor, bud. Learn about these things before you die from them.
You've probably already had Salmonella without knowing it.

    don't forget the incisors. these teeth are specifically meant for
    cutting. obviously, in the days when utensils and modern food
    preparation were non-existent, they were much more pronounced
    and useful. but clearly, they were there for cutting and tearing
    meat, not lettuce. hth.

    .231
    
    > obviously, in the days when utensils and modern food
    > preparation were non-existent, they were much more pronounced
    > and useful.
    
    More useful, maybe, but not more pronounced.  There is no significant
    difference between modern human dentition and that possessed by
    Cro-Magnon specimens 50,000 years old.

    
    
    
    
    	.229 Actually pesticides are in much higher concentraitions in meat
    	     than plants. It's why DDT ravaged the birds of prey.
    
    

    
    >> There is no significant difference between modern human dentition
    and that possessed by Cro_magnon man 50,000 years ago.
    
    well, I highly doubt that Cro-Magon man had services available like
    we do today. say, bleaching, capping, bone grafting surgery, etc...
    Plus, I doubt they saw their dentist's twice a year for cleanings. :-)

    >How about botulism?  Heard of that?  Caused by improperly canned
    >vegetables.
    
    I never heard that botulism was restricted to canned veggies and
    had no effect in canned meats.
    
    I'm reminded of the Sienfeld (sp?)  opener, "Doesn't everyone know that can
    go one aisle over and get them fresh?"

    
    
    Hey! I can keep this rat-hole going in.... one reply!
    
    let's talk something else besides teeth...
    
    Anyone know what the appendix used to be used for??
    

    Cholera, Giardia and hepatitis A, are not obscure in most of the world
    and all can be caught from eating fruits and veggies grown in
    contaminated soil, or picked by people who harbor the disease(s)  Oh,
    did I mention amoebas and several other horrible dysentaries that don't
    fall into the above?  They can be avoided by killing the germs with
    enough heat, but then you are losing a lot of the quality of food.  
    
    Pesticide intoxication and buildup is not a joke.  I may be dating
    myself, but who else in here remembers the difference between gasoline
    and mother's milk?  (Gasoline contains no ddt)
    
    

Giardia from fruit pickers?  Not unless they wipe their behinds with the fruit.

    I think we've wandered rather far afield here.

    Yes, over hill and dale. 

    
    And through Bugs Bunny's carrot patch...
    

    ... into Mr. McGregor's garden...

    
    	... behind the house that Jack built ...
    

Don't look now, but there's an epidemic of Mad 'Boxer's Disease.

    
    
    
    .237 And amazingly are not even close to being a significant threat
    	 compared to heart diease and cancer.
    
    

    .232 i agree, but Cro-Mag wasn't the beginning either.

    enuff a dis bull, back to dem mad kowz...

    .246
    
    Point weren't whether Cro-Mag wuz first.  Point wuz whether teeth wuz
    more prominent back when modern food prep methods didn't exist.  They
    wuzn't.  All members of subspecies H. sapien sapiens seem to have been
    born with essentially the same dentition.  What they done with it wuz
    their bizness.

    
    >fact is that the human animal is engineered to eat meat.
    
    My body was not engineered to eat meat.  It wasn't from the start (at
    birth)  my body never develop the right enzymes to digest meat & certin
    Fats (milk, cheese) but meat allways affected my body w/ horrible
    reactions (mike and cheese just caused some upset tommy) but meat, I
    will break out and throu up everything for hrs, if I have meat!
    
    For yrs (at the start of my birth) all I could eat was skim milk
    pudding and that was all.  I lived on pudding for almost the 1st yr (my
    mother told me)  as I got older it was hard to find things I could eat
    w/out getting very ill.
    
    I used to try to eat meat or chicken when I was in my teens.  I was
    tired of being different and everything was made such a fuss at dinner
    time.  I really wanted to eat meat/chicken.  but again, I would get
    very very very ill!
    
    so, not eating meat is not a choice I had to make!  and in my 33yrs
    I have meet a ton of people who are in the same boat as me.  It was
    never a choice!
    
    I used to be angry not having a choice, but now I am very happy I
    have never had it.
    
    Louisa

    
    well, Louisa, if you've met a ton of people in the same boat as you,
    i would assume that that boat has now been sunk.

    the human body is amazing and very individualistic...take George Burns,
    who had a cigar and drank every day and he lived to be 100 yrs old...a
    case studyon him would show that smoking nor drinking shortened his
    life at all...on the other hand, thousands die each yar from lung
    cancer, stomach cancer, etc. and these are attributed by the medical
    community to smoking and drinking, etc.  So what is necessarily good
    for one isn't necessarily good for another; visa versa, what is bad for
    one isn't bad for another.
    
    take me and my brother...I eat and I pack the weight right on; bro eats
    like me, is skinny as a rail...the same advise to two brothers about
    eating habits doesn't carry the same weight (pun intended)

>           <<< Note 688.251 by USAT02::HALLR "God loves even you!" >>>

>    the human body is amazing and very individualistic...take George Burns,
>    who had a cigar and drank every day and he lived to be 100 yrs old...a
>    case studyon him would show that smoking nor drinking shortened his
>    life at all...

	how do you know that?

    
    	RE: Diane
    
    	You mean he might've lived to 150 if he didn't drink/smoke?
    

  .254  shawn, you're smarter than i look.

    
    no diane. you look smarter than shawn is. hth

    there was nothing wrong with George until he slipped in the tub; that
    wasn't caused by his smokin' cigars...
    
    otoh, if he never took a bath, he wouldn't of slipped in the tub,
    right!?

    
    	Maybe the cigar made him light-headed and he lost his balance,
    	therefore causing him to fall in the tub.
    
    	Or maybe he stretched too far reaching for that martini.
    

  maybe his overall resilience was impacted by the smoking/drinking.
  i guess we'll never know.

    
    	His resilience was definitely suspect, since he definitely
    	didn't bounce back up after the fall.
    

    His subscription to "Life Aficionado" magazine ran out.

    come on guys, the vegetarians police were bashing us normal people for
    our diets and I merely pointed out to a known case like GB and u imps
    bash him to death also...
    
    this is worse than leading a horse to water

    
      Well, I've never heard of insane British vegetables...
    
      bb

    bb:
    
    nev heard of the lymie bean?
    
    :-)

    I though this "Mad Cow" disease was a recent phenomena.  Look what
    appeared 6 years ago in the Digital CELT conference:
    
    -- Jim
                <<< TALLIS::SYS3$:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CELT.NOTE;1 >>>
                               -< Celt Notefile >-
================================================================================
Note 808.0                       Mad Cow Desease                      21 replies
FRNEDI::MANNERINGS                                   16 lines  19-SEP-1990 07:07
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hallo hallo,
    
    Does anyone have any information on Mad Cow Desease in Ireland/"Great
    Brittain"/Europe ? Some Consumer Protection Groups here in West Germany
    are calling for the boycotting of "British" beef, which I assume
    applies to all beef coming from the United Kingdom of Great Brittain
    and Northern Ireland. I am trying to decide if this is sensible
    consumer protection or chauvinist nonsense. What is the situation in
    the 26 Counties/6 Counties ? 
    The main theory of why the desease has broken out in the cattle
    population is that foodstuff contaminated with sheeps-offal had been
    widely used. Were such feeding methods also used in Ireland ? 
    Are we being told the whole truth about all this or is there a cover-up
    going on for economic reasons ?
    
    Kevin Mannerings (Frankfurt) 
    

    
    	So it's an urban legend?
    
    	Next thing you know we'll be seeing alerts from Keane NH, or
    	warnings to look out for "Blue dots" shaped like cows.
    

>    I though this "Mad Cow" disease was a recent phenomena.  Look what
                                         ^        ^^^^^^^^^
A phenomenon. Please.
(sorry about the pet peeve :-) ).

    You may never have hard about lunatic vegatables, but there was the
    potato blight of Ireland...

    mad 69 cow snarf disease snarf

	 	  (__)
	          (oo)
	 *    -----\/  (__)
	  \  /   _||   (oo)
           \/   /-------\/ 
	    | _/ |     || \ 
	    ||   ||W---|| I SURE HOPE WE DON'T CATCH ANY DISEASES.
	    ~~   ~~    ~~  

    
    
    
                      ____
                      |  |
                    __|__|__
                      (oo)  I'm too sexy for my hat, too sexy for my hat
                _______\/ /      Whatchoo think about that???
               /      | |
              / ||w---| |
             *  ||    | |

    I heard that Cambodia didn't want the british beef destroyed, just ship
    em there so they could roam the countryside and detonate the numbers of
    mines remaining there.

	 	  (__)
	          (oo)
	 *    -----\/  (__)
	  \  /   _||   (oo)
           \/   /-------\/ 
	    | _/ |     || \ 
	    ||   ||W---|| We can't move....might set off mine....
	    ~~   ~~    ~~  

     you are right, of course, herr binder. i may have misused the word
    prominent or pronounced or whatever it was. i really meant that we
    have teeth you don't generally find in vegetarian animals.
    
    Louisa, sorry to hear that you didn't form to specs. meat is a
    wonderful food! :-)
    
    re; George Burns... i think we all knew that the smoking thing would
    eventually kill him with shame of it being he was only 100 yrs. old.
    let that be a lesson to the rest of the smoking population.

    
    
    	
>    re; George Burns... i think we all knew that the smoking thing would
>    eventually kill him with shame of it being he was only 100 yrs. old.
>    let that be a lesson to the rest of the smoking population.
    
    	yep, smoke and you'll only live to be 100! It'd make a great
    billboard......;*)
    
    
    

| <<< Note 688.275 by SUBPAC::SADIN "Freedom isn't free." >>>

| yep, smoke and you'll only live to be 100! It'd make a great
| billboard......;*)

	But that would mean everyone would have to switch from cigarettes to
cigars!

| <<< Note 688.274 by WMOIS::GIROUARD_C >>>

| you are right, of course, herr binder. 

	Chip, in this topic, shouldn't that be heifer binder? :-)

    pretty brave this mornin' aincha Glen? :-)

	
    >But that would mean everyone would have to switch from cigarettes to
    >cigars!

    That's not such a bad thing 8^).

    
    
    
    
    .254
    
    >        You mean he might've lived to 150 if he didn't drink/smoke?
    
    That's the current belief of the absolute possible maximum.
    
    (Without genetic manipulation of course.)
    
    Still, 25 more years wasn't out of the question.
    
    Red meat also depletes bone density, raising the acidic level of the
    blood and leaching off calcium. (Not sure how true this is myself.)
    
    another... not directly related to eating meat, but high iron levels
    cause heart diease. In an age with plenty of red meat and iron fortified
    foods we get too much iron. This iron is suppose to react with fats 
    and cause the fat to build up in the heart and arteries.
    
    The proof is suppose to be the delayed heart disease in women compared
    to men.
    
    Defense: Donating blood on a regular bases, to remove excess iron.
    
    
              

	What do you mean, Chip?

    
    	Deb, I did notice that you had a few packs of cigars on top of
    	your refrigerator.
    

    
    My secret is out!
    

    
    	And you wouldn't let us smoke in the house?
    
    	I'm hurt.
    

    Glen, by associating Mr. Binder's ancestry with the bovine population
    thus risking furious anger from him :-).

	In real life it might....but in a place where the pun rules? Hardly! :)

    
    One may smoke cigars in my house, but not cigarettes.
    

    
    	Now you tell me ... I froze my butt off for nothing.
    
    	8^)
    

    -1 have you had it replaced or are you planning on going buttless the
       rest of your life Shawn?

	He's gone buttless this long.....I'm still trying to figure out what he
froze off! Maybe it was the butt that was in his mouth. 

    
       Well, they say life is one giant 'butt whole' and we keep getting
    sucked into the sh#$%T!.

  .291  charming.

    
    oh well, yet another typical demise of a pretty good topic.
    
    I mean, really, I appreciate the "clubbiness" of soapbox,
    but to have practically every topic turned to slime is
    rather sad, don't you think?
    

    There's always joyoflex.

re 688.294 by POLAR::RICHARDSON "Alrighty, bye bye then." >>>

It's just a parsing fad.


\C

    what organization is holding an emergency meeting in Switzerland
    concerning MCD?

    The Trilateral Commision?

    Glenn,
    
    Isn't that the Tricattleal Commission?

   > It's just a parsing fad.
    
     Good shot.
    

 Snarf cow disease

God I hate the type of vegan who has such a misplaced superiority complex.  
Actually, what happens to a diabetic vegan, just out of curiosity?

Chris.

    They become very insular.
    

    
    

        Leading causes of death by percentage of all deaths.



	1900			1994
	----			-----
Pneumonia 11.7%		      Heart Disease 32.1%
Tuberculosis 11.3%	      Cancer 23.5% 
Diarrhea and Enteritis 8.3%   Stroke 6.8%
Heart disease 8.0%	      Bronchitis and emphysema 4.5%
Stroke 6.2%		      Injuries 3.9%
Liver disease 5.1%	      Pneumonia and influenza 3.6%
Injuries 4.2%		      Diabetes 2.4%
Cancer 3.7%		      HIV infection 1.8%
Senility 2.9%		      Suicide 1.4%
Diphtheria 2.3%		      Chronic Liver Disease 1.1%	


Source USA Today Apr 3 1996
Usa Today's Source CDC, National Center for Health Statistics

    
    I had my diptheria shot yesterday so I shan't die of that anytime soon.
    

    
>    I had my diptheria shot yesterday so I shan't die of that anytime soon.

    okay, but you still have to worry about diphtheria.  just remember
    that.
    

    
    I feel ill.
    

They shoot diptheria don't they?

       Was watching Dateline, or one of those shows, about how this thing
    was spread around. Yikes!
    -ss

    
    I had my tetanus shot also, so I may now step on rusty nails with
    impunity.
    

    so long as you don't drink them with impunity!

    
    I'm not big on Rusty Nails, but I could stand for a martini right about
    now - haven't had one in AGES!
    
    8^q
    
    

    oh yes...a martuni...seems so long ago! ;-)

    
      I don't have life-expectancy data back to 1900 or forward to 1994
     in my office, but in the USA, 1920 was 54.1 years and 1988 was 74.9.
    
      The much greater average age of death is presumably due to success
     in suppressing death causes associated with younger ages, shifting
     it to death causes associated with older ages.
    
      If the trend continues, you can expect that our lifespan will grow
     longer, and death causes to shift again.  In a very funny essay,
     Stephen Jay Gould points out that if ALL diseases were eliminated,
     the death rate from pure accidents like falling, burning, freezing,
     drowning would prevent any significant advance beyond a lifespan
     of 400 or so.  If death were a pure Poisson (declining exponential,
     or random) process, it would be statistically unlikely anybody
     could escape accidental death after a couple of millenia.
    
      bb

    
    
    
    .313 of course your failing to take into account genetic engineering
         and nanobot technology of the future to heal us from critical
    	 injuries.... :)
    
    

    
      Take it to the mad Brit piggy note.
    
      bb

    Well, seems like there's another problem with U.K. meat. Heard this on
    CBC's As It Happens last night. The pig farmers in the U.K. have had
    the habit of using peat as a bulking agent in the feed. this peat 
    apparently contains tuberculosis from bird droppings. 2% of the pigs
    examined have scar tissue in the lymph nodes which is what this variety
    of TB attacks.

    Cool eh?

	 	   (__)
	           (-*)
	 *    ------\/  (__)
	  \  /   __||   (@@)
           \/   / /------\/ 
	    |  /o=|     ||  
	    ||W   ||W---||

	Buck.... I see you added a few things.... :-)  Too funny!

    
                                      First mad cows!!! Now mad pigs!!!
                                       I hope I'm not next!!!!  
    
                                 o_o /
                                ( o )
                               ( | | )
                             _________    

    More pictures, Madhatta.
    -ss

    
    
    
               
                       ^___^
                       |o o|
                       (:o:)
                        |u|
                        === 
                        DOG

    that's a very cute dog.

    
      Is it yours?

    he's not mine, but i think his name is thermos.

    ok, I'll bite. Why thermos?

    lunchbox....thermos?

    why not juicebox?

    
    I guess if he draws a cat next, we'll have to call it CatBox.
    

    too specific.  a thermos may hold many kinds of liquids;
    a lunchbox may hold many different lunches.  besides, thermy
    is a better nickname than juicy.

    A thermos keeps hot food hot,
    and cold food cold...
    but how does it know?
    
    
    Stupid poem, lest anybody think I don't know the answer. Anyway, the
    dog started out as a cat but looked  so much like a dog I modified it.
    
    
    						lunchbox

        |\_/|
       / o o \
     ==== Y ====
        )`-'(
     ../     \.. 
    ( ( .   , ) ) :.
     \ \ \ / / /__) )
     OOooo oooOO___/

    cool cat.  dig the whiskers.

    
    didn't have time to shave, apparently.

       \  /
        \/
       (00)
       (**) 
        \/    

    
    
    
    Interestly U.S. Beef in banned in England because of growth hormones
    injected into cattle here.
    
    

    .334  looks to me like a silent lamb moth sans wings.

    
    
    
    Taking advantage of Mad Cow Diease, An Ostrich Rancher in N.C. is
    about to start shipping 100,000 pounds of Ostrich meat a month
    to England.
    
    

    Marketed as E-Moo, no doubt.

    
    
    
    Moo or less
    

    RE: .335
    
>    Interestly U.S. Beef in banned in England because of growth hormones
>    injected into cattle here.

    Not that this belong in this topic, but can you really blame them?  I
    remember when I was in school the first girls (they weren't women yet)
    to start "developing" did so in the 6th grade (around 11).  These days
    it's starting in the 4th grade (around 9) ... you occassionally have to
    stop and wonder why.

    -- Dave

    Not to mention the fact that American Males' sperm count is down 50%
    since the '40's. Nothing like a little technology to make life easier.
    
    
    lunchbox

    Some of us in the US who are carnivores have stopped financing the
    feedlots and factory farmers that find it "necessary" for profits to put
    hormones behind the ears of our beef.  there are a fair number of
    non-commercial ranchers that still grow beef without the routine
    hormone and antibiotic injections that are used by agribusiness.  Fi9nd
    them buy there meat and boycott your local Factory-farmed meat from the
    supermarket. 
    
    meg

	I had roast beast last night at my party.

    
    .340
    
    Another load of bullocks from the EEC.
    
    Banning US beef is nothing more than EEC market protectionism in the
    guise of consumer protection.  Beef is very expensive in Europe and the
    US has capacity to supply.  The EEC should drop the transparent
    protectionist stance and let the market decide whether it wants the
    product.
    

    There is a fair concern (and I agree with it) that the usage of
    sub-clinical doses of antibiotics is creating super-bugs, that can and
    will make it into humans through rare meat, and injuries to people
    during processing of beef.  Sub-clinical doses of Antibiotics are
    typically used in feedlots in the US because it makes cattle gain
    weight faster than without.  I believe the EU banned this form of
    feedlotting meat in the '70's.
    
    Having cut myself carving up a raw commercial chicken, I can vouch that
    the bugs in same are resistant to most of the common antibiotics that I
    can take.  I am damn glad I have prescription insurance.  In less
    than 12 hours my hand was twice its normal size and it took a couple of
    days to find the right anti-b's to clear up the infection.  I can
    definitely see where there are valid concerns about the indescriminant
    use of germ-killing drugs to fatten livestock.
    
    The hormone thing.  Estrogen-type hormones are placed under
    the skin behind the ear in commercially raised beef in the US.  There
    is some concern that this can lead to all kinds of problems, including
    the earlier onset of puberty and subsequent problems.  30 years ago
    breast cancer rates were 1/2 of what they are today.  Better detection
    methods may pick up a few more at smaller stages, but this is
    ridiculous.  
    
    Needless to say, we avoid commercially raised meat, as much as is
    possible.  Maybe our smaller farmers should be approached for exporting
    meat to Europe, except that ir would probably price me out of the
    customer meat business, and send me back to road-kill patrol.
    
    meg

    You know,
    
    we don't have any Mad cow disease in the US because of the ag
    department and the FDA.  Aren't these the same regulatory agencies that
    need to be dumped since they don't do anything valuable?

    re .337
    
    This would explain the section of "Ostrich Helper" in the supermarket
    lately.

    There are new plans to destroy all British cattle and also all cattle
    in other countries that may have come from Britain or been
    contaminated by British cattle.

    It will be the herd shot around the world.


    				-- edp


Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    <----Agagagaggaagagaga!

Old punchline, new lead-in.

    I obviously don't get out much.....

 Many years ago the joke was that they were going to send cows into
 orbit around the earth..they would be the herd shot 'round the world.



 Jim

    
    	But, you're apparently missing the fact that it was edp who
    	entered the joke.
    
    	I don't care how old it is ... that's just not like him to
    	write something amusing.  I wish he'd do more of that.
    

>   <<< Note 688.353 by BUSY::SLABOUNTY "Don't like my p_n? 1-800-328-7448" >>>
    
>  that's just not like him to write something amusing.  

	apparently it is.

re:      <<< Note 688.348 by RUSURE::EDP "Always mount a scratch monkey." >>>

    There are new plans to destroy all British cattle and also all cattle
    in other countries that may have come from Britain or been
    contaminated by British cattle.

    It will be the herd shot around the world.


    				-- edp


Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.


What plans? May we have a source, please? 

How will it be possible to determine that a particular animal has been
'contaminated by Dritish cattle'? 

Contaminated how? 

What 'other countries'? 

Why should this set of animals be considered a 'herd'?  Doesn't a herd
imply physical proximity? 

And is the plan really to shoot them? Is that the best means of
disposing of the menace?

This reply raises too many questions. Please try to close doors that
you leave open!

Pete

 Hmmm...

 .355  sigh.

    
    	That could have been an attempt to hold edp to the same stand-
    	ards of accuracy to which he holds everyone else.
    
    	Not a very good attempt, of course, but I digress.  8^)
    

    How come the EEC Commisioner has admitted that British Beef is safe,
    and the only reason they are still banning it is in the interests of
    the other members of the EEC? 
    
    The Brit Govt are trying to get this over-ruled. I,in the mean time,
    will eat beef until the cows come home. So to speak.
    

    .358
    
    In your case, it was a hoof-hearted attempt.

Yesterday on I-70, just east of Springfield, Ohio, two tractor-trailer trucks colided.  
One of them was carting 150 head of cattle.  About 75 were killed in the wreck or were 
put down on the spot.  The rest just meandered on the expressway until the whole mess was 
cleaned up (quite a few hours).

Now, those were some mad cows.

 Was the traffic mooving around them?

    You people have milked these cow puns dry...

    That's why we're so un-stable.

<---Hay you!

    A barn again punstring.

	Pretty lofty of you, Colin

    hay Hay HAY!

    AAAAAAAAAhaaaaaaa.....

Every time I see this note, I think of Anna Nicole Smith...

    I was watching Parlaiment on C-span last night, because I think a
    government with a room full of people yelling at each other is the most
    entertaining form of government, with the exception of the Tokyo
    Parlaiment that occasionally breaks out in violence. Unfortunately,
    C-span doesn't carry them. Anyway, Prime Minister Major said that beef
    sales were up to 85% of what they were before the "beef scare", and
    that foreign governments were hyping the issue to promote their own
    beef.

    re.-1
    
       Mmmmmmmm, infected beef. I'll buy that for a dollar.
    -ss
    

Subject: Re: Mad Cow Disease & McDonalds
From: euming@netcom.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe, rec.arts.comics.dc.universe
 
David Mendel <cfp@onramp.net> writes:
 
>The medical experts do not believe it can be transmitted to humans, but it 
>really doesn't matter.  What is important is the publics perception.  If 
>the general public feels there is some possibility of getting this disease 
>from hamburgers, McD's, et al, are better off importing their beef.  Very 
>few people would eat there if they thought there was still a small chance 
>of getting some weird cow disease.
 
Au contraire mon frere.  Even if there were a small chance of getting some
weird cow disease, I'd eat all of the cow I could get no matter how small
the chance was.  I mean, just look at Spiderman for example--- I mean what
were the chances that he would contract superpowers after getting bitten
by a radioactive spider?  Better than getting Mad Cow Disease, I'll bet!
Just *think* of the awesome super powers you would have as Madcowman.  You'd
be hella famous, dude!  Spiderman, Batman, Catwoman, Penguin, and Madcowman!
 
Spiderman could climb walls--- like a spider.  Just imagine the awesome
farts and belches you could make as Madcowman!!!  And since Spiderman was
really a scientist, he could make that nifty spider web sticky silly string
and his nifty costume and web-shooter.  But not all of us are scientists,
and can make cool stuff like that, or even get to work alongside of radioactive
spiders.  But I know lots of guys who can really down a bunch of burgers real
quick!  And you don't need to work with no stupid radioactive animals of any
kind to be Madcowman!  You can just go to McDonald's and order up a Happy
Mad Cow Meal.  Better yet, a SUPER SIZE Happy Mad Cow meal, if you want to
be Supermadcowman.  Then you'd be on par with Superman!  But you're slightly
better than Superman because you're Superextravaluemadcowman!!!
 
I'm making a costume for when I become Madcowman right now.  But to be
honest, I don't think I'd look that great in one of those lycra form
fitting costumes after slurping down all those burgers.  What I did was
get this big ol' Gateway 2000 box and cut a hole out of the bottom and
stuck my head through it.  I haven't cut out holes for the arms, but I
glued a tail to the back of it and it looks great when I thrash around.
The guys in the mosh pit were pointing and shouting, "Look out!  Mad cow,
man!  Mad cow, man!"  See?  They know me already!  How many superheroes
do you have their own grunge dance craze?  Not bloody many, I tell you.
Just look at Batman.  Got that big Prince deal, but still no dance craze.
I can't wait to see newspapers with the headlines:  "MAD COW FEVER SWEEPS
THE NATION!"
 
Oh wait.  I gotta logout now.  This dude who *claims* to be Peter Parker
(Yeah RIGHT) says he wants to extract some fluid from my head.  He says
it won't harm me a bit, so I guess I'll let him.
 
But let me leave you with my Madcowman theme song:
---
Sir, could I order a Happy Meal, please?
Yes, of course, I'd like to add fries.
I wanna get that Mad Cow disease.
Oh yeah, I forgot, make it Super Size.
Also, could you add a Monopoly game piece?
They say everyone dies
from the eventual brain freeze.
But if you've lost your mind, as I have realized,
you don't mind ordering that big burger with cheese.
---
 
If you think I'm crazy, wait 'til you see how cool the video is.  Then,
you'll be a-moshin' to the Mad Cow Dance Craze!
 
Ming
aka Madcowman

The headlines in the British Press on Monday were all about how Prime Minister
Majors is about to "get tough" on Europe for banning the import of British
beef, after it has been "scientifically proven to be completely safe."

Talk of banning imports from other EC countries, or of withholding payments
for EC agricultural subsidies.

/john

    The EEC must be cowering.

Have you heifer herd of such a load of bullocks?

    It's good to see Major taking the bull by the horns on this issue.

    I predict that it will pizzle out by the end of the week.

    
    
    
    .374
    
    >beef, after it has been "scientifically proven to be completely safe.
    
    That is the crux of the problem; they can't prove that people can't
    get the diease. Can't prove how cow's get the diease. Can't prove
    the milk is safe or the beef is safe.
    
    They can't even prove that the chances of getting the diease are small.
    
    They suspect,have ideas and even guess.
    
    The U.S. also feeds cattle with this sheep meal although there is
    a self-imposed industry ban that must not be working because the
    feed makers are still selling it in the U.S.
    
    It's used because it's cheaper than grain, but
    "Only healthy-dead sheep are used."
    

    Given the cost of healthy sheep, I find it hard to believe that anyone
    would be feeding them to cattle.  However, I don't buy factory- farmed
    meat any more.  I prefer to support local farmers who raise their meat
    the old-fashioned way.
    
    meg

    How? porno?

Agagagagagag!

>    Given the cost of healthy sheep, I find it hard to believe that anyone
>    would be feeding them to cattle.

Just used just the parts they would have thrown away (bones, innards, you know,
the stuff they would put in our hotdogs if they were pigs :-).

It supplies the cows with, among other things, calcium.

BTW for those who care..  as we speak - the merits of eating Cow's carcass .vs.
Green peppers - the mass slaughter has begun

    I haven't really heard anything about this slaughter. How many cows are
    affected? What are they doing with the dead cows? Surely, there are
    uses for them. Science, fertilizer, I could use a leather trench coat
    myself.

    Why can't men catch mad cow disease?
    
    
    
    Because they're all pigs.

    Speak for yourselves, Glenn and Co.

re:        <<< Note 688.387 by POLAR::RICHARDSON "Spank you very much!" >>>


	I am offended, I am offended.. call the PC police

    No, he's right. We're all scum.
    -ss

    PC police...Porker Control?

    
    
    >It means beating them with wooden spoons at every opportunity.
    
    Dry, hard turnip leaves maybe substituted in a pinch...
    
    hth