Conference back40::soapbox

    
    once a maggot always a maggot

| <<< Note 646.1 by ACISS1::BATTIS "pool shooting son of a gun" >>>

| once a maggot always a maggot

	Even in the after-life? :_)

    i believe after maggot there is housefly

    Who is this Lorry Bombers anyway? Sounds like a stripper.

    From the opinions I've heard, it seems the Irish have a valid question.
    What are English soldiers doing in Northern Island?

    
    I don't know Jack, but they are in Northern Ireland. hth

    
    I know Jack.
    

    
    .5
    
    of course this perfectly validates setting off a bomb that kills and
    injures innocent people. Jack, you worry me, you really do.

    
    	RE: Deb
    
    	I'm sorry to hear that.
    

>    From the opinions I've heard, it seems the Irish have a valid question.
>    What are English soldiers doing in Northern Island?

attempting to keep the peace, what with the latest outbreak of violence.  And 
to answer any accusations of them being an occupying force, the British Army 
represents the UK, of which Northern Ireland is a part, at least at the moment,
so there's no reason for them not to be there.

Of course, anyone who reckons that the stationing of the Army, the political 
situation, or anything else excuses and vindicates the IRAs resumed campaign 
to murder civilians is either very sick or an idiot.  Probably both.

Chris.

    Z    of course this perfectly validates setting off a bomb that kills and
    Z    injures innocent people. Jack, you worry me, you really do.
    
    All I asked was why the English are in Northern Ireland.  I wasn't
    condoning violence of any kind.  I don't really know enough about the
    history to make any determination.  I only know the English are accused
    of invading Northern Ireland and people feel they should be out of
    there.
    
    -Jack  

>    I only know the English are accused
>    of invading Northern Ireland and people feel they should be out of
>    there.
    
these `people', whoever they are, should read up on their history, then.  
They're presumably the same people who can be found in ersatz Irish bars 
drinking green Guinness, happily handing over money to Noraid to be spent on 
illegal arms used for killing and maiming innocent civilians.  These people 
should get a clue, and stop being ignorant bigots.

Chris.

    Yes...no doubt that stinks to the hilt.  So why don't the brits just
    leave Ireland?

>    Yes...no doubt that stinks to the hilt.  So why don't the brits just
>    leave Ireland?

I think that the British government would have gladly rescinded control over 
Northern Ireland years ago, except for two main reasons:

- oddly enough, many (although not all) people in NI actually *want* to be
  part of the United Kingdom.  The Unionists are particularly outspoken on
  this issue, and have considerable support.

- the UK can not be seen to be giving in to terrorist demands, otherwise a
  precedent will be set opening the door for any fringe group to bypass
  democracy with violence.

Chris.

   This is the 1st note I've ever written. 
   Maybe I have a perspective on this that is a bit impartial. 
   (then again, maybe not) 

   I lived 3 years in Scotland, working for Digital in SQF. My understanding
   of the Northern Ireland situation is largely as an uninvolved American
   watching the tit-for-tat violence that was played out every night on the
   Nightly News. My conclusion was that BOTH the Catholic and Protestant 
   Paramilitary groups ( IRA,UDR,... I loose track of the acronyms ) were not
   freedom fighters but psychopaths under the guise of some political purpose.
   These people commit such hideous crimes against innocent civilians that in 
   normal societies ( ie. Heartland America) they would be institutionalized as 
   perverse or "fried". Somehow the political situation seems to absolve them.
   ( at least from the uninformed American Viewpoint.)

   A short list of the atrocities reported during my short stay:
   ( Remember this was nightly on TV , almost like watching the Vietnam War)

   - Killing a fruit vendor because he sold apples to the local police.

   - Shooting Babies and then justifying it after the fact with "its OK he/she
     was a Protestant baby. 

   - Of course there was a reply shooting. "its OK he/she was a Catholic baby."

   - Kidnapping the wife and child of a random civilian and then forcing that
     father to drive a booby trapped car into a British Checkpoint under 
     the treat of death of his family. ( Really. This happened several times.)
   
   - Then there were the random bombings of pubs and shopping centers both
     in Northern Ireland and England. 

  I was never in fear for my safety since there were never targets in 
  Scotland. Scotland was another "occupied country". 

  I hope this recent violence in London does not derail the peace process. 
  The people in Northern Ireland want peace and I believe the average 
  citizen of Northern Ireland ( Catholic and Protestant) and willing to
  compromise to make that peace a reality. They are sick of the violence.

  But what will the psychopaths do if there is peace?

    If there was an election in North Ireland tomorrow,then there would
    be about a 2% vote for Sinn Fein. So this indicates that Catholics
    as well as Protestants are quite happy for the British Government to
    rule over Northern Ireland. The reason there are soldiers in Northern
    Ireland is to try and stop the Catholic and Protestant extremists 
    from killing each other. 
    
    On the other hand,if I was an IRA sympathiser,I would say that the
    elections would be fiddled by the British Government and that there would
    be a lot more than 2% voting for Sinn Fein. (After all,that figure is
    only going on what the British Government tells us). I would then go on 
    about various atrocities by the British Government etc,etc.
    
    I notice Gerry Adams has refused the condemn the bombing on Saturday.
    
    
    And btw,contrary to American/Irish propaganda,the English were NOT 
    responsible for the potato famine.
    
    
    

        <<< Note 646.11 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

>    All I asked was why the English are in Northern Ireland. 

Jack,	That's kind of like asking why the Americans are in Massachusetts.
	Northern Ireland is part of the UK, along with Scotland, Wales
	and England.

>I only know the English are accused
>    of invading Northern Ireland and people feel they should be out of
>    there.
 
	England invaded ALL of Ireland. When the Irish acheived independance,
	the 6 counties making up Northern Ireland, with its Protestant (CoE) 
	majority, chose to remain "English".

	This is how "Northern" Ireland came into being.


Jim

    TALLIS::CELTS  has a couple discussions on the NI 'problems'. It
     also has some good references to the history of NI. It is very
     difficult to get an objective viewpoint or analysis of a 150
     year old 'problem' but I would encourage you to keep looking for
     it!
    
    good luck

>     It is very
>     difficult to get an objective viewpoint or analysis of a 150
>     year old 'problem'

this is, of course, the crux of the difficulties.  People keep looking back 
and apportioning blame for historical events, and often use them as an excuse 
for new atrocities.  This is self perpetuating, and must stop.  People should 
look forward and start afresh.

Blaming the English for every event that has occured in Ireland over the last 
800 years, as some people do, is pointless.  They're not the same people.  A 
very large proportion of the current English populus is descended from the 
Irish anyway, and most likely the ones who were forced to flee their country 
in the first place because of things like the Famine, so it seems a little 
ironic to blame the very descendants of some of the people who suffered most.

Chris.

    
    
    As a Welshman who's country was subjugated around the 12th Cenury by
    the English throne, I fail to see the point of the Northern Ireland
    conflict any more.
    
    
    I couldn't justify blowing up civilians just to regain my sovereignty,
    but if on the other hand, I was brought up in a family where my brother
    or father was killed by an IRA sympathiser, I would spend my whole life
    trying to seek retribution. I'm proud of my Celtic heritage and sense
    of family, but I couldn't kill innocent civialians without a damn good
    reason, I could easily kill someone who had hurt a close relative.
    
    This is I think is why the problems persist. We all know that religion
    is a good cover for aggression and crime, but most people in NI
    couldn't give a toss about religion any more, it's simply down to
    personal hatred over crimes against individual's families.
    
    
    It's just rather unfortunate than one man's terrorist is another man's
    freedom fighter. 
    
    If all these Americans seem to think that Britain should get out of
    Ireland, why don't all those Immigrants also get out of America and
    leave it to the Native Americans. 
    
    
    
    Conrad

    Jim, thanks for the synopsis...I never really understood what was going
    on over there.  
    
    -Jack

I have never understood the Irish conflict, until I recently heard a story
from a friend of Irish descent. This speaks to the recent comment here about
"the English didn't cause the potato famine".

Of course he English didn't cause the potato crop to fail, but I was told that
during the famine, the English occupiers had significant non-potato food 
stores and did not depend on the potato crop for food. These food supplies
were NOT shared with the native people, and this was actually a deliberate
campaign of passive genocide. As a result the Irish hate the British like
no other, and consider the Irish Protestants to be British sellouts.

Any truth to this? Is this an oversimplification?

>As a result the Irish hate the British like
>no other, and consider the Irish Protestants to be British sellouts.

>Any truth to this?

concerning this bit, then for the most part, no.

I can't make any definitive comments about the famine, I'm not an expert on it 
and I've heard several conflicting stories.  All I can really add is that some 
of my ancestors fled to England from the famine, so if the above was true I'd 
have to hate myself like no other!

Chris.

    .22
    
    That is a bit of an over-simplification.  The protectionist Corn Laws
    had caused the price of corn to be artificially high, and did not
    encourage farmers to produce wheat efficiently.  The corn harvest of 1845
    was poor, and the potato blight was simultaneously introduced from
    potatoes brought from America, where the disease originated.
    
    The was widespread poverty and starvation in both mainland Britain and
    Ireland, but Ireland suffered worse as the reliance was on the potato
    crop.  Spuds grew well in Ireland and had also displaced bread as the
    prime food because of the high corn prices.  The Irish simply could not
    afford the price of English corn for bread, so they had stopped eating
    it and developed the potato monoculture.  But they had also stopped
    growing rye and oats, which might have mediated the famine.
    
    The English government was unable to supply Ireland with food because
    of their own crop shortage, but Parliament immediately assigned 600,000
    pounds for the purchase of maize from the US, which was sold at a rate
    of a penny a pound in Ireland.   This aid was "too little too late" and
    also came with strings attached.  If an Irishman helpd more than a
    quarter-acre, he could not qualify for food aid.  Thousands of families
    had no laternative but to sell their land to raise the four pounds that
    it cost to emigrate.  The famine was followed by an epidemic of
    cholera.
    
    Remember that this was still primarily a farm-based economy and purpose
    of the Corn Laws was to provide revenue through taxes, it was not
    deliberately set up to put the Irish population at risk.  The English
    Gov't spent over seven million pounds on disaster relief, which was an
    unprecedented sum at that time.
    
    The famine is but one element in the history of troubled English/Irish
    relations, but it seems to be the one instance where the English
    government tried hard (although belatedly) to do the right thing.
    Unfortunately, rapacious English *and* Irish absentee landlords took
    full advantage of the misfortune to grab land at low prices, and that
    is where most of the blame lies.
    
    Regrds,
    
    Colin
     
    
    

    
    <----- that certainly was very informative, thanks.

re .24:

Did the Corn Laws applied to wheat only, or did they apply to grains like
rye and oats?

    All the references point to wheat.  The law was enacted to prevent
    imported wheat being sold cheaply on the British market.  It did not
    really affect domestic market garden crops or crops grown as cattle
    fodder. 

    re .24
    
    Nice overview of the history of the problem.  Often forgotten is
    other parts of the United Kingdom suffered also.  My father told
    me tales his parents told him about the depravation and hunger
    experienced in Cornwall around the same time because of the 
    shortage of wheat.
    
    Your piece also highlights what can happen in times of crisis when 
    government isn't prepared and doesn't move fast enough to ensure 
    the welfare of it's people.

    .28 Don`t forget also that there wasn`t the infrastructure to shift
    large quantities of food.
    
    There wuz no motorways or HGV`s in them days. 
    
    I think railways were just about beginning,but that`s about it. That`s
    also conveniently forgotten when the propaganda is being spieled.
    

.29

I didn't forget.  I understand the logistic problems that 
faced Victorian England, the cultural problems also.  There
was a definite reluctance to help the very poor, they 
were styled as shiftless and whining, and prone to lying 
around all day and having too many children.  Reluctance 
to take their plight seriously was double fold as most 
of the MPs and Lords owned the land the poor worked and 
lived on.  Didn't want to buck the status quo and have 
the serfs getting uppity, don't you know.
    
    
    
    

    
    
    Hmm,
    
    
    as a Brit (Welsh, not English) living in the US, I don't pretend to
    understand US politics yet ...
    
    >There
    >was a definite reluctance to help the very poor, they
    >were styled as shiftless and whining, and prone to lying
    >around all day and having too many children.
    
    Isn't this the view of the GOP ???
    
    
    >Reluctance
    >to take their plight seriously was double fold as most
    >of the MPs and Lords owned the land the poor worked and
    >lived on.
    
    This is still the same in Britain as well as large parts of Europe, 
    nothing has changed there. Some of the people left Europe and decided
    to take over some land that wasn't "owned". Now this land is suddenly
    "owned" by someone, and the natural inhabitants are no longer allowed
    to live there. It seems that history just travels in circles.
    
    >Didn't want to buck the status quo and have
    >the serfs getting uppity, don't you know.
    
    
    	I see that America is reaching this point with the Telecoms bill,
    we can't have all those plebs running computer networks investigating
    our clandestine dealings, and exposing us, can we !.
    
    
    

Another bomb exploded in London yesterday, destroying a bus and causing 
several casualties.  It's suspected that one of the fatalities was the bomber 
himself.  Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

Chris.

    
    
    	apparently they also had diffused another bomb in the theatre
    section. Things are getting nasty over there....
    
    jim

>    	apparently they also had diffused another bomb in the theatre
>    section. Things are getting nasty over there....
    
I guess that's the one they found last thursday.  Some nice person had 
deposited a hold-all with a stone of semtex in a 'phone box in theatreland.  

The IRA are apparently planning a 2 year terror campaign against the people of 
London.

Chris.

    
    
    	Loverly. My prayers are with all the innocent citizens of London.
    
    
    	jim

    .31          
    
    History is destined to repeat itself because the mechanics of history
    is man and he hasn't basically changed his thinking and behaviour
    since Medieval times.  The potato famine in Ireland is a tragic example
    of could happen anywhere in the world when government leaves the
    welfare of it's people in times of crises to private enterprise.
    
    I lived in Wales for a couple of years and loved it. I found the
    Welsh people to have a wonderful sense of humor, but maybe I was in tune
    with it because I am also a Celt, from Cornwall.  One of my fondest
    memories, and also one of my last, of Wales is the graffiti over a 
    railway bridge outside of Swansea
    
            "Free Wales!"
    
    and underneath in different paint and writing,
    
    
            "With every gallon of petrol".
    
    My daughter, having been taught in Welsh and English at the two room 
    school house in Llangain*, still keeps her knowledge of the Welsh 
    language alive.
    
    
    *= my spelling may be off, it's been over twenty years since I was
       there.
                                                                     

    
      Do the Brits still stiffen the upper lip ?
    
      What is the protocol when you survive a public explosion ?
    
      bb

    The politicians are very polite about it,not wanting to upset the IRA.
    
    Sinn Fein are "saddened" by it,and blame the Government. 
    
    All in all,it stinks.
    

I think that the people who insisted on a precondition to the IRA surrendering 
its weapons have been quite clearly vindicated now.  In Europe, one does not 
have a right to bear arms, and ownership is strictly controlled (for the 
rights and wrongs of this, please take it to the NRA topic!)  The IRA holds 
arms which it intends to use against purely civilian targets.  This is totally 
unacceptable in a civilised society.  Comments about `the English should 
surrender their arms' are unhelpful, and, IMO, bloody stupid; every country is 
entitled to have armed forces.  Please note that the IRA does not represent 
any country or any community.

I'm starting to wonder if the only way this can be resolved is for HMG to 
stick its fingers up in the direction of the outspoken protectors of criminal 
rights and forcibly revoke the IRA's member's right to existance.  The IRA have 
killed too many innocent people, and, since they have said that their bombing 
campaign against civilians will continue for at least two more years, the 
already unacceptable death toll will rise if drastic action isn't taken.

Chris.

Oh, btw, it's rumoured that the only reason that the IRA called a cease fire 
in the first place was to replenish its stockpiles of weapons so it can kill 
even more civilians.

Chris.

    Does the IRA really hope to regain support with this latest atrocity?
    OK, they had reservations about turning over the weapons in NI, but
    why bomb a bus of full of innocent citizens and tourists in London?
    
    If I recall correctly (from CELT notes file few years ago); one
    bombing in London was not far from a Digital facility.
    
    Personally, I'm glad my Da decided to get on the boat and take his
    chances working the coal mines in PA.
    
    

It should get them lots more money from Teddy and his friends in Boston.

>    If I recall correctly (from CELT notes file few years ago); one
>    bombing in London was not far from a Digital facility.
    
one of the suspected targets for the latest bomb, which exploded prematurely, 
was Holborn tube station, which is the one most Digital staff at the HHL 
office use.

Chris.

    
      Latest question is whether the USA will extend Gerry Adams' visa,
     which just expired.  Clinton says he "deplores" the bombings.
    
      bb

    re .39
    
    mark,
    
    You may have a point there, but also consider that the "English" army
    also protects the Catholic minority from the other side.  Loyalist
    paramilitaries are equally indiscriminate in their killing.
    
    Consider also that both Wales and Scotland have strong nationalist
    movements and have not (with the exception of a very few incidents)
    resorted to violence as a way to promote their political agenda. It's
    ironic that although nationalism and cultural identity supposed to be
    what the IRA are fighting for, the use of Gaelic in Eire and NI has
    been declining steadily.  In contrast, there is continual growth of
    nationalism, language, and cultural identity in Wales and Scotland -
    through peaceful political processes.
    
    Twenty years ago, NI had a much stronger chance that Wales of obtaining
    partial devolution, and potentially complete devolution once the
    nationalists attain a political majority.  They would have had twenty
    years to convince the loyalists that there was room for both cultures
    in the same space. That opportunity has been wasted by their attempt to
    impose a settlement by force of arms.    Guns are not an essential
    component of a political settlement except through your experience of US
    history.  Ghandi's India didn't need them,  Polish dockyard workers
    didn't need them.
    
    Colin
    
       
    

    
    As someone of predominantly Irish-Catholic ancestry, but born and
    bred in the US, I am positively ASHAMED of the actions of my
    countymen who would consider sponsoring this terrorist campaign
    against the people of England. I am not proud to be Irish
    OR American. We show that we are an arrogant and violent
    people with every dollar we send to those pigs.
    
    I would like to express my deepest sympathy to the people of London.
    
    -b

   > I am not proud to be Irish
   > OR American. We show that we are an arrogant and violent
   > people with every dollar we send to those pigs.

	people who send money aren't showing anything about Irish Americans
	as a "people" being arrogant and/or violent.

	

>    As someone of predominantly Irish-Catholic ancestry, but born and
>    bred in the US, I am positively ASHAMED of the actions of my
>    countymen who would consider sponsoring this terrorist campaign
>    against the people of England. I am not proud to be Irish
>    OR American. We show that we are an arrogant and violent
>    people with every dollar we send to those pigs.

don't be ashamed for someone else.  The scum who make up the IRA and the 
lowlife who fund them don't represent you, the Irish, or anyone else.  
Organisations like the IRA should not be credited with being able to hijack 
someone else's heritage or culture.  I find it sad if a whole nation or 
culture is broadbrushed because of the actions of a minority of self-serving 
thugs.

Chris.

    
    Well, yes, it is true that not every Irish-Catholic person is
    responsible for the IRA's actions. On the other hand, I've
    seen, _first hand_ the little "fund raising" activities that
    go on in cities like Boston and Worcester. I've seen the
    so-called "leaders" of our community fail to speak out against
    terrorism, and worse, even surruptiously support it. Have
    you ever heard of Boston's so-called "Irish Mafia"?
    
    The IRA is a much more pervasive influence in this country
    than most people will admit.
    
    -b

    
    In fairness,  a lot of the money collected by Noraid and other
    charities does do good work in NI.  Noraid has been extensively
    audited by the IRS and ans any American will tell you, the IRS is
    pretty much a law unto itself when it comes to investigations.
    
    There is a huge amount of under the table cash that does get to the bad
    guys but it does not come from every Irish-American. Most Americans
    who make a donation, get a cash receipt, and claim that donation as
    tax-deductible is giving traceable money to charity.  The IRS has
    accounted for much of this cash.
    
    Ever stop to think who funds the loyalist protestant paramilitaries?
    Apart from their crime sprees, they also have cash income from
    somewhere - perhaps close to home.  They also have the predominantly
    protestant police force to do the foot dragging dance when it comes to
    investigating loyalist paramilitary crime.
    
    There are no good guys in this affair.
    
    
    Colin
    
    
    

    There was a picture of some mans face in black and white on the blown
    up bus. The face gave credience to the feelings of the on lookers to
    the blown up bus. Anyone know who or what that face add is connected
    to? A recording artist? An advertisment of such? It apeard to be at the
    upper left side of the bus as you looked at it from the, apeared, front
    of it.
    
    

    
    Where did you see this picture, George?
    

    I have seen it in the news, and on the bus as mentioned already. The
    mans face seems to be looking skywards. Like it was asking,'Why blow me
    up?'
     
    
    

Well, not too significant as far as the current discussion goes, but I may be 
spending quite a lot of time in London before too long.  I'd just like to say 
that the IRA scumbags won't be putting me off travelling there, so they may as 
well shove their bombs up their collective arses for all I care.

Chris.

    
    >so they may as well shove their bombs up their collective arses for
    >all I care.
    
    
     Well Chris... if you're gonna spend time in London, and they continue
    with their "campaign", then it's very possible the collective arse may
    be your own...
    

Not witty, I'm afraid.

Chris.

    Wondering if anyone has got a descript of that mans face?

    In reference to the last notes on "Picture of Man on the bus"
    
    It was an ad for the buddy holly stage show, the picture was buddy himself.
    
    
    

    Thanks. Kinda ironic, the victum of the bus bombing probably will get a
    chance to meet Buddy Holly before most of us do...
    

    I thought the victim was also the suspected bomber?  I doubt that Buddy
    Holly is in Hell so a meeting is unlikely.

    Intgeresting details on the Bomber, his parents have totally denounced
    their sun and sent apologies to the families of the victims. What's
    more, the IRA normally have a lot of mask clad men firing a volley of
    shots at IRA funerals, they have strictly insisted that none of this
    usual paraphanelia be included.
    
    Other news, the bomber was supposed to have moved to his flat in London
    last Novemberish posing as a labourer on a building site (typical
    stero type Irishman moving to UK), and since IRA operations are
    normally planned severam months in advance, I think it is safe to 
    assume that they (the IRA) were planning a resumption in terrorist 
    activities while negotiations were still going strong.

    
    >Intgeresting details on the Bomber, his parents have totally denounced
    >their sun
    
    	Wonder what color the sky is in their world?
    

    Figures the Bomber's parents were nuts eh?

I am not happy.  Can you believe that an employee of Digital reckons that it 
would not be prudent for the IRA to call of their resumption of violence 
against the people of London?  There is a Digital office right in the middle 
of the latest murderous campaign, an office where many fellow employees have 
to work every day, an office where I will be going tomorrow, and a certain 
member of our Company thinks that it is okay for us to be at risk of death 
from the IRA bombers?  I am bloody furious.

Anybody know the correct procedure for filing an official complaint against a 
fellow employee?

Chris.

A complaint because the IRA doesn't have Digital on the run already moved
into a new office?

How do you know the IRA won't just move their bombing campaign to that part
of Londres?

/john

>A complaint because the IRA doesn't have Digital on the run already moved
>into a new office?
>
>How do you know the IRA won't just move their bombing campaign to that part
>of Londres?

don't understand.  Digital have an office at Holborn, an area right in the 
middle of the area targetted for the IRA's bombing campaign.  Many Digital 
people work there, including myself, on occasions.  An employee of Digital 
says it's not prudent for the IRA to call a cease-fire yet, which suggests 
that he approves of the current campaign against the people of London, 
including Digital employees.  I'm a bit pissed off about that, as anyone would 
be about an advocate of an organisiation that makes death threats toward 
oneself.

I intend to make an official complaint.  If it's not successful, I'll contact 
the media, and we'll see what they have to say.

Chris.

    
     perhaps the company thinks it will keep the employees alert
    
     bb

>     perhaps the company thinks it will keep the employees alert
    
sorry, but I do not find this episode at all amusing.

Chris.

I'm sorry.  I didn't read your note correctly.  I thought your complaint
was against some DEC facility manager for expecting you to show up at the
DEC facility in Holborn.

Never mind.  I wish I'd get over this interminable cold and get my brain back.

/john

    .66 Is the employee an American??
    
    If so,take pity on the poor soul. He (or she) has been spoon fed Noraid
    propaganda and knows no different.
    
    If they`re English,then there`s no excuse.
    

    Chris,
       Check the last string you started on this topic.(495).
    
    			Stretch.

    Chris,
    
    Is the employee that idiot who has totally ruined the CELT conference
    for those of us who used to follow the conference?
    
    

>    Is the employee that idiot who has totally ruined the CELT conference
>    for those of us who used to follow the conference?
    
assuming you don't mean me, then, yes.

Chris.