Conference back40::soapbox

    
    If the story is true, a crime has been committed.
    
    Personally, I doubt the story, for several reasons unrelated to the
    likelihood of racial discrimination in some randon business.  It
    had a very fishy "fictional" feel on first reading.
    
      bb

    
    <-------
    
    I agree...
    
    Most racists go out of their way to be subtle and devious about their
    bigotry... They will make it look as if they're complying with all the
    rules/regs/laws, but in reality they don't.
    
      One thing most bigots are not is stupid...

... but plenty are.

If this is reported to the MCAD, I suspect they'll do a sting operation --
send in matched sets of black and white applicants and wait for the job
offers to be given to the white applicants only.

    
    <-------
    
    Yes, you're right.... and that seems to be the only way to catch these
    jerks.... 

    
    One or two of these MCAD stings have seemed to me to be very
    unfair. And the fines are outrageous.

This isn't the first time I've heard such a story. (MCAD has done stings in the
past; I've heard about it on 60 minutes and the like).

I doubt it will be the last.

May we all gain as balanced a perspective as the author in .0 has.

The wish to avoid retribution is not looked down upon here. No matter what steps
are taken to insure anonymity a certain amount of risk is always prevalent.

Are you claiming that the author of .0 posts fake anonymous notes in various
files?  Could you give specific pointers so 'boxers can judge for themselves?

    This was quite a while ago, but back in the early '80s (still
    considered a rather enlightened era), I personally worked for a man who
    tried to require me to screen office personnel in this manner.  I was
    the office manager of a very small construction firm, and we were
    looking for part-time receptionist/secretaries to job-share one desk. 
    My boss flatly refused to interview or hire anyone who was either of
    African-American, Asian-American or Hispanic-American descent.  I kept
    sticking to my guns about qualifications and the legalities of equal
    opportunity, and then let him interview several of the preferred white
    candidates.  Most of these were 21 year olds with great bodies who were
    ill-spoken, ill-mannered and completely under-qualified (couldn't type
    or even take a decent message....)  By this somewhat under-handed
    technique, we eventually hired one well-qualified pretty blonde/blue-
    eyed lady (married with child, another thing he didn't want to hire --
    "they're always late for work or have a sick kid or something...mothers
    belong in the kitchen, not my office!!") and a nice older black lady
    (grandma!) for the job.  However, that was the only time I won.  
    Otherwise, his company was pretty much racially "unmixed", and he made
    the black lady so miserable by his refusal to speak with her or utilize
    her skills that she found herself another job within about 4 months.
    
    M.
    

    re: -1, BTW, *I* quit that job and moved to Southern California about
    two months after the black lady left, for various reasons, my boss' 
    treatment of minorities among them.  
    
    M.
    

    
    <-- That sounds very much like the GM of the office at my first real job
    after college.  He'd interview someone we'd chosen and if she wasn't
    young, white, slim, or pretty, he'd reject her by saying "She doesn't fit
    the <name of company> image".
    
    He even did this to temps, for goodness sakes 8^p.

I don't know about his hiring practices (or even if he had the final say),
but at a company where I worked, there was a supervisor all of whose underlings
were young and pretty.  We used to refer to them as "Bob's Angels" (this was
around the time that "Charlie's Angels" was on TV.)

    
    <---  love the new p_name.

Why thank you.

	
	Indeed, why?

    My wife worked for a company here in the Metro Atlanta area when she
    was in school.  They also had to mark the applications as to the race
    of the applicant.  She was apalled at his practice, but needed the job.
    Most people react with disbelief to this story as some of you have.
    
    I have personally been denied a job by a company because of my
    religion.  I was told that by someone who worked in a diferent division
    within that company, that this manager was known to hire only 
    fundamentalist WASP males.  My choice was to not make an issue of it as
    it would ultimately have ruined my career and is very difficult to
    prove in court.

    
    	RE: Gerald
    
    	The new p_n is definitely "you", that's for sure.
    

    anonymous reply by the basenote author:
    =======================================
    
    
    I am not surprised that the first three responses think the story is
    fiction.  If I had read it, I probably would have, too.  
    
    I'm completely serious.... and this is not a joke or a twisted story 
    by a disgruntled employee.  
    
    I should also mention that my husband and one other gentleman were the 
    only two "outsiders" in the office.  The remaining people were all 
    friends of the owner and have been there since the company started,
    (20 years?)  Both "outsiders" quit last month.  
    
    I know a law has been broken... and the company should be punished. 
    
    re .4 -That is EXACTLY what I want to see happen.  The timing would 
    be perfect,too... because they desperately need at least 2 sales reps. 
    
    I will call MCAD. 
    
    Thanks!
    

I'm just curious, if your husband no longer works for the bigot, then what
retaliation can you possibly be concerned about? Anything that he might do
clearly puts you in a position to either sue his butt or take him up on
criminal charges. You seem to be in an excellent position to expose the
crudball, yet you refrain out of fear. Fear of what?

>You seem to be in an excellent position to expose the
>crudball, yet you refrain out of fear.

She's gonna drop a dime to MCAD.  Isn't that enough?

    Re: .21
    
    "... sue his butt" ??
    
    
    How would this solve the problem?

    
    	RE: .23
    
    	Hitting a businessman in the wallet is one of the best ways to
    	get his attention.
    

    Utopia would be to get big brother completely out of it and have the
    business community at large initiate a large boycott!
    
    -JaCK

>    How would this solve the problem?

It wasn't to solve the problem. .0 stated fear for retaliation if the
owner were exposed. The first step if he were to attempt to retaliate
should be criminal action if appropriate. If criminal action were not
appropriate, civil action should be next.

Would you prefer to just let him retaliate with impunity? Now we're really
talking about leaving problems unsolved.

>    Utopia would be to get big brother completely out of it and have the
>    business community at large initiate a large boycott!

Oh, like the business community would give a doot.

    .0
    
    > His
    >answer scared me.  He said... "YES, what are you stupid?" 
    
    and your husband calling you stupid in this manner didn't bother you?
    
    But Cheers to you for action.
        

    Interesting article in yesterday's Boston Globe re: Affirmative Action.
    Talked alot about the state's civil service exams, and how whites who
    score higher than minorities are NOT given the jobs due to quotas in
    hiring minorities.
    
    I, unfortunately, was one of those people -- after having scored a 98
    on the state police and 100 on the civil service exam, I have yet to
    get a call for an interview.  However, I know some women I took the
    test with who scored lower and are now in the program ... go figure?!
    
    So why can't I claim discrimination as a white male?
    

     Don't you qualify for any other minority status? :-)

    
    If you're opposed to affirmative action, vote for and financially
    support candidates who will repeal/replace AA.
    
    Aside from getting involved in generally unwinnable lawsuits, this is
    about all you can do.

    ZZZ    So why can't I claim discrimination as a white male?
    
    To coin the non conservative philosophy...
    Hey, you racist pig...keep your mouth shut!  
    
    Ya see, people who support Affirmative Retribution programs have a
    mental block and can't seem to grasp the concept that what they are
    supporting is criminal, racist...to put it in one word,
    multiculturalism.
    
    -Jack

Unfairness abounds.

I have a feeling you'll surmount your problems.

    I know what you mean.
    
    An article in the local paper told of a girl who wanted to improve
    her lot by taking a course in Hotel Admin at the local tech college.
    (She was a cleaner in a Hotel,I think).
    
    She applied for a grant to get on the course.
    
    a) Was she an ethnic minority? No
    b) Had she been a convicted criminal? No
    c) Is she a single mother? No
    
    Then no grant is available. Her best bet I guess is to get up the 
    junction then rob a bank. Then she could apply. 
                                  
    
    

    I know that I sleep better at night knowing that underqualified
    minorities are being giving jobs in law enforcement.
    
    AA or not, give the jobs to those most qualified to do them, period!
    If minorities can't make the cut, tough doo-doo.

                 "Would you fly Affirmative Action Airlines?"

        
        

    
    .36:
    
    I suppose so.  Why, is the FAA in the habit of handing out commercial
    pilot licenses to unqualified pilots?
    

    
    <------
    
    Let's say the airline had to hire a less qualified mechanic because of
    AA....
    
      Still feel confident???
    

    
    Airline mechanics are licensed too, aren't they?
    

    Exactly why I was dead against Hillarycare.  They wanted to implement
    quotas for knifeholders.  
    
    -Jack

    
    HELLLOOOO!  Are the standards by which the previously named
    professionals are licensed in any way substandard?  If not,
    then why should I worry?  If so, then why isn't THAT the issue?
    

    
    
    I plead ignorance in the licensing procedure, so I can't comment on
    that...
    
     I would be intereseted to hear more about said procedure though and
    how it's implemented... etc...
    

    I would be glad to respond.  The military has lowered standards for
    women flying combat jets.  Some women have met the original standards
    anyway while others didn't come close.  
    
    A female pilot crashed a naval aircraft recently which cost the US a
    large some of money but doesn't even compare to the disgusting
    negligence on the part of our military.  Her life was worth more than
    anything.
    
    The quota crowd refuses to deal with reality on this issue.  I for one
    am offended by it.
    
    -Jack

    
    Fair enough, but you do see my point, don't you?  That the strawman
    of underqualified personell shouldn't be an issue in a profession where
    there is a minimum standard to be reached before one will be allowed
    to practice it?
    

    
    .43:
    
    Exactly what standards were lowered, Jack?
    

    
    Male pilots don't crash?
    
    

    
    .46:
    
    Of course not.  Male military pilots have to work their asses off to
    get their wings.  Women pilots are awarded wings based on their breast
    size.
    

    > Women pilots are awarded wings based on their breast size.
    
    It's funny... suddenly I find myself getting hungry for a chicken
    dinner...
    
    -b

    I'm an undercarriage man myself.
    
    But to continue this line of thought.  The Challenger had
    underqualified astronauts aboard - women too.  You don't suppose...?
    

    
    SAY...NO...MORE!
    

    Yes, QUALIFIED Males crash.  Standards are based on test scores and
    physical/mental ability to fly jets.  I would implicitly trust a female
    pilot who MEETS the standards required as set forth by the military....
    PERIOD!
    
    -Jack

    
    Jack... shut up... :)
    
    It was determined from films/wreckage that it was a MECHANICAL problem
    as to the jet crashing... not the pilot driving it...
    
    RE: strawman...
    
     Okay Jack... you can chime in again :)
    
      No I can't see it as being a strawman, if for instance, as Jack has
    alluded to, that "standards" MIGHT be different for different, ahem,
    "classifications"//
    

    
    .52, Jack:
    
    You have yet to demonstrate that any "test score" or "physical/mental
    abilitity" standards were lowered for the female pilots.
    
    I am, however, patiently awaiting the documentation you are going to 
    quote to back up your assertions.
    
    :^)
    

    
    .53, Andy:
    
    Yes...if the standards for women/minority doctors/pilots/aircraft
    mechanics are indeed lower than for men/whites, then I might be concerned
    about it.  I have yet to see any evidence that they are, so I remain
    (shall we say) skeptical.
     

    
    .43, .53
    
    Andy is correct, the crash was determined not to be due to pilot error,
    but to mechanical failure of the plane.
    
    Would you like to offer your famous apology to the maligned pilot and her 
    family now, Jack?

  If one were to belive Mr. G Gordon Liddy, one would maintain that the 
  crash was not due to mechanical problems.  I don't believe him, fwiw.



 Jim

    
    
    I saw a female pilot pulling G's on the discovery channel this weekend
    that would make most fighter pilots black out and she wasn't in a
    fighter jet.  She was truely incredible with what she was making that
    plane do.  
    
    On another note, I just heard this morning where they are changing the
    survival training that they are giving pilots these days.  It seems
    that some of the female trainees said that the training was too
    realistic.  It involved sexual harassment and what to do.  I don't know
    the extent of what was done in the training, does anyone have any
    details?  
    
    If they pass the same training, they get the same opportunities and it
    doesn't matter what race, religion, or sex they are.  That's how I see
    it.
    
    Mike

ZZ    You have yet to demonstrate that any "test score" or
ZZ    "physical/mental abilitity" standards were lowered for the female pilots.
    
    Sorry, I got the information from David Brudnoy on WBZ.  He doesn't
    usually do the "Make Up A Fact" day.  
    
    -Jack

    
    .59, Jack:
    
    So you say that David Brudnoy says that...
    
    May be good enough reason for you to believe, but not for me.
    
    :^)
    
    jc
    

    .59
    
    > Brudnoy ... doesn't
    > usually do the "Make Up A Fact" day.
    
    Like Rush Lamebrain, he makes things up every day.

    Uhhh...no he doesn't Dick.  Brudnoy is a scholar and wouldn't have any
    reason to make up facts.  Brudnoy is dying however and has proven to be
    more cranky and more likely to speak his mind however.
    
    There are two major causes Brudnoy seems to fight against...one being
    discrimination and the other being affirmative action and other
    government retribution programs.
    
    -Jack

    .62
    
    > Brudnoy is a scholar and wouldn't have any
    > reason to make up facts.
    
    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!  {gasp}  Oh, lordie, Jack, considering
    some of the howlers you've deposited in various topics, that's one of
    the funniest things you've ever said in this forum!

    Dick:
    
    Brudnoy reads at least three books a week, has his Doctorate, and
    currently teaches at Boston University.  
    
    You lie...Why do you lie??!?!!
    
    -Jack

    
    Hey Jack...Bill and Hillary are highly educated!
    
    :^)
    

    Yes but they graduated from Yale.  That says it all!  
    
    Brudnoy always backs up any of his positions with statistics and
    reports from various trade journals.  
    
    -Jack

    hm, i read at least 3 books a week, have an undergrad degree from 
    Northeastern and depend on your notes in soapbox to back my position
    up with statistics, so then is it fact if I say, "Jack Martin, you
    sir, are a twit!"? :-))))))))))))))))))))))

    Sure...why not???  But you still love me right???!!!!!!

    	What facts has Brudnoy made up?

    Joe:
    
    Brudnoy annoys alot of people.  Brudnoy will not cave in to the PC
    crowd up here and this bothers people...especially the Harvard elitist
    types.  Brudnoy calls it as he sees it and hence tends to put the
    flower power types into a discomfort zone.  Lest they ignore the man,
    they will have to deal with the fact that alot of their bandaid
    approaches to societal problems are doomed to failure and have already
    failed miserably.  
    
    -Jack

Of course, no one ever focuses on the _Exact_ same conditions (being qualified
yet denied) when the shoe's on the other foot. And no one questions whether
inferior education is doled out in 'disadvantaged' areas, which hampers an
ability to compete just as lack of effort does. It's OK for _others_ to have to
work twice as hard or more to enter and then retain a position...after all
that's fair.

Yeah, one may not sleep at night when less qualified are policing the streets,
but the supposedly qualified are _still_ harassing law abiding citizens (one of
whom happens to be a relative by marriage and whose parents had the P.D. take
out a full page apology in the local newpaper a couple of months ago) and
creating their own brand of chaos. I wonder how many of the Qualified were
cutting up in D.C. a few weeks ago?

 

    ZZZ                                -< Get a job! >-
    
    Well, I'm 20% over my budget...so I guess I don't need to get a job!
    :-)
    
    Look Brandon, I'm not saying inequity doesn't exist...it does.  I am
    all for changing the societal paradigm that causes discrimination...I
    just happen to think the current plan promotes multiculturalism...it
    stinks!  I'd rather utilize a government plan that wipes out tribal
    stigmas...we don't need to become any more balkanized than we already
    are!
    
    -Jack
    

    .74,
    
    Wow, I haven't seen so many buzz words since Clinton's last speech !
       :-)
    Dan

What's a tribal stigma?

    Hmmm....did I say that?  Good question I guess!
    
    Tribal stigma...Hmmmm, that doesn't make sense.  Let me try again.
    
    Multiculturalism is non existant in the sense that we think of.  What
    it does is it promotes a whole array of special status
    classifications...all going after what is theirs and fighting over the 
    little smidgens our beloved federal government in their social
    engineeringve tried to manufacture.  But what it finally ends as is a
    bunch of groups, including white males, bickering and complaining they
    didn't get theirs.  
    
    Is this what racial harmony is all about?  I want no part of it!
    
    -Jack

>But what it finally ends as is a
>    bunch of groups, including white males, bickering and complaining they
>    didn't get theirs.

Hmmm.  Since you mention white males, can you give me an example of
what they bicker and complain about to the federal government?

    Sure...I'm a perfect example...I admit it.  
    
    I have seen first hand the failure of implementing quotas in the
    workplace.  What really hits home is the misuse of AA and the fact that
    it is a legal form of discrimination...payed for and sanctioned by the
    Federal Government.   I find this disingenuous and hypocritical.
    
    So yes, I'm a whiner and a part of this beloved multiculturalism.
    
    -Jack

    <----- affirmative action for one.  

....and people gettin' jobs for another...

>all going after what is theirs and fighting over the 
>    little smidgens our beloved federal government in their social
>    engineeringve tried to manufacture.  But what it finally ends as is a
>    bunch of groups, including white males, bickering and complaining they
>    didn't get theirs. 

Oh, so white males only more or less _react_ to other groups 
that "go after theirs"... case in point, the AA issue.  Right?  
I wonder why that is.

 ZZ   that "go after theirs"... case in point, the AA issue.  Right?  
 ZZ   I wonder why that is.
    
    Because it is something Martin Luther King wouldn't espouse to. 
    Because unlike his dream that men would not be judged on the color of
    their skin but by the content of their character, it focuses in on the
    exact opposite...and goes against the 1964 Civil Rights Act.  
    
    It is used as a tool for racism!
    
    -Jack

Okay, I know your opinion of AA now.

But let's focus on your .77.  Are you saying that white male 
reaction to a social program such as AA is the same as "bickering 
and complaining they didn't get theirs"?  That because of AA,
white males are not "getting theirs"?
  

    Brandon,
    
    I haven't heard anyone complain about folks getting jobs per se.  I
    have heard folks (AWMs) complain of AA policies both here and in
    society at large.  Pat Buchanan and Pete Wilson being some of the more 
    prominent ones in recent memory to speak out against AA.   
    
    Brian

    I am focusing on white males not getting theirs.  
    
    Two
    
    
    Wrongs
    
    
    Don't
    
    
    Make
    
    
    A
    
    
    Right!!!!
    
    -Jack

    But
    
    three
    
    lefts
    
    do.

I heard a saying once, `if two wrongs don't make a right, try three'.

Chris$irrelevant.

>I am focusing on white males not getting theirs.

Thanks for confirming my suspicions that that is the
_real_ reason for AWMs constantly condemning AA!  

| <<< Note 438.86 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "You-Had-Forty-Years!!!" >>>

| I am focusing on white males not getting theirs.

	You mean for a change, don't you?

| Two Wrongs Don't Make A Right!!!!

	Tell that to the Right then! :-)

	Mr. Binder... I have to admit, that was too damn funny for words.
Thanks fer postin it. :-)

 ZZ   Thanks for confirming my suspicions that that is the
 ZZ   _real_ reason for AWMs constantly condemning AA!  
    
    Who said otherwise?  I never denied this!  At the same time iI would
    like to thank you for confirming one of my suspicions.  You have
    confirmed in my mind that the end indeed justifies the means.  Let's
    implement government sponsored get-even-withem-isms in order to
    supposedly make things right.  What you have failed to recognize is
    that you have sold your soul and have thrown all your principles out
    the window.  By justifying your actions you have in essence gone
    against the very ideals you stand for...and apparently have become to
    complacent and too blind to see it.  
    
    Sorry to sound mean spirited.  Equity in the workplace needs to be
    achieved through incentives, not fear of reprisals.  
    
    -Jack

    Glen:
    
    I've given up on you man.  You simply fail to see your racist
    tendencies!  You mean well but you got egg on your face!
    
    -Jack

I just got this in the morning mail. May not be 100% on topic but what the 
h*ll? :-}

FWIW

* Human Events * May 26, 1995 *


    MUSLIM GOVERNMENT GETS FREE PASS

    FARRAKHAN TURNS A BLIND EYE TO AFRICAN SLAVE TRADE
    ==================================================
    By Paul Liben


Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam have long indicted the West for the
African slave trade - human history's largest involuntary migration.

According to human rights observers, however, Africans are today being
enslaved on a grand scale by the Islamic fundamentalist government of
Sudan.

Last year, Louis Farrakhan appeared in Sudan as an honored guest of its
leaders, President Omar Hassan al-Bashir and Sheik Hassan al-Turabi, who
since seizing power in 1989 have imposed an Iranian-style theocracy on
the country, including largely Christian south Sudan.  During his stay
in this, the largest country geographically in Africa, Farrakhan uttered
no words of public protest in the face of mounting evidence of a revived
slave trade practiced by the regime against the south.

Recently, Farrakhan had another chance to address the issue.  The occasion
was the Third Popular Arab & Islamic Conference convened in Khartoum, Sudan's
capital, from March 30 through April 2.  Along with such groups as Hezbollah 
and Abu Nidal, the Nation of Islam was invited.  While Farrakhan himself did 
not appear, he sent Minister Abdul Akbar Muhammad in his place with instruc-
tions to read a letter by Farrakhan to Bashir, Turabi and other attendees.

ATTACKS PRESS INSTEAD OF SLAVERY

In his letter, which was read on March 31, according to The Final Call, the
Nation of Islam's newspaper, Farrakhan deemed it a "great honor" to communi-
cate with Basir and Turabi.  Most of the letter focused on the need for a
theologically purer Islam, but at one point Farrakhan addressed the slavery
issue:  He simply brushed it aside, complaining that "the Western press is
using Mauritania and the Sudan as examples of what they call Arab enslavement
of black people."

While he went on to decry the "suffering" of Muslim "brothers and sisters"
in Bosnia and Chechnya, Farrakhan was silent concerning charges that, in
addition to slavery, cultural and religious cleansing by the Bashir/Turabi
regime has killed over two million south Sudanese African Christians and
left over five million homeless.

Evidence of slavery in Sudan is quite strong.  U.N. special investigator
Caspar Biro has documented the "abduction of children [and] women....
[They] are kept in special camps where people from the north or from
abroad come to purchase them for money or goods such as camels.  Young girls
and women are purchased [as] housekeepers and...wives.  The boys are...kept
as servants."

In the Nuba mountains alone, almost 30,000 children have been sold into
slavery, most for the price of two chickens.  This is done with the approval
of the Bashir/Turabi junta, according to Bishop Gassis of El Obeid in 
northern Sudan, who, along with Biro and other human-rights watchdogs,
asserts that non-Muslim boys and girls are specifically targeted for
abduction, slavery and forcible conversion to Islam.

Confirming these charges, the U.S. State Department has noted the revival of
the ancient slave trading routes; abductees are transported - exported - to
northern destinations such as Libya.  According to the State Department,
Sudanese government forces are directly involved in the slave trade.

Two years ago, Rep. Frank Wolf (R.-Va.) returned from Sudan and described
the selling of women and children into slavery by the Sudanese government.
"Where's the Congress on this issue?" he asked plaintively.  "Where's the 
Clinton Adminstration on this issue?  Where are the media on this issue?"

Two years later, as the Nation of Islam denounces the West for its past sins
regarding slavery, it is time to ask its leader: Where are you on this issue?

The answer is crystal clear:  When Islam, not the West, practices slavery in
Africa, Louis Farrakhan is AWOL in the battle for its eradication, be it in
Sudan or in Mauritania.

[end]

Source: Human Events
        May 26, 1995, p.18

	
	I tend to think that the so-called AWM is nothing more
	than a myth, used to explain the results of the last election
	and make it more palatable to the dims who still can't come to
	grips with their epic defeat.

	On the backlash against AA...I read an article over the
	weekend stating that middle class white women have been
	the primary beneficiaries of AA. As such, may companies
	now feel that they have achieved their quota, so to speak, and
	are now looking at other [real] minorities when filling
	job positions. So now middle class white women are experiencing
	the same somewhat limited access to job opportunities, albeit
	on a smaller scale. The result, not surprisingly, is that they
	too are starting to reevaluate their position with respect to
	AA. 


	

    Amos:
    
    I'm afraid he will be no where to be found....and you brought up a very
    good point.  This is a very good example of the point I was bringing up
    yesterday...the evils of multiculturalism.
    
    diversity is a good thing.  It is a part of life and brings about the
    learning of other heritages.  I equate the multiculturalism aspect to
    the big lie.  The hypocritical rhetoric of the Sharptons and the
    Farrakhams of the world.  The constant whining and whining and
    continual whining.  
    
    Promote diversity, discourage racism and bigotry, take responsibility
    for your own actions, drive through incentive and not threat of
    chastisement, make goals in life and for God sake stop the infernal 
    whining!!!!!!!!
    
    -Jack

    
    
    >    I happen to believe in AA.  In my experience as a hiring manager I have
>    had great success with proactivly seeking out and hiring minorities. AA
>    worked in my situation - being a technical, software development area.
>    Since no one was considered who didn't have a BS in Comp. Sci. with a
>    GPA of 3.0 or better success was assured.
    
    	So it shouldn't matter what skin color someone is if they can do
    the job. Why was hiring minorites better than hiring someone in the
    majority? Did they have more skills? A better work ethic? Was skin
    color the only deciding factor between hiring a minority worker vs. a
    white worker?
    
    
    jim

>         <<< Note 438.96 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "You-Had-Forty-Years!!!" >>>

    
>    Promote diversity, discourage racism and bigotry, take responsibility
>    for your own actions, drive through incentive and not threat of
>    chastisement, make goals in life and for God sake stop the infernal 
>    whining!!!!!!!!
    
But Jack, What on earth will we do without _VICTIMS_ for the gov't to
help?  Where would slick be without whiners to vote for him? How would
groups like the NEA survive?

Jack, we have this entire growth industry in this country of _find victims to 
help then throw money_  Where would the lunatic-left be without them?

You are proposing much too radical a plan.

Amos


:-} :-} :-} :-} :-} :-} :-} :-} :-} :-} :-} :-} (for the humor impaired)

non-racial snarf!!

    
      The interesting aspect politically, is that this is a "watershed"
     issue for Dems just as abortion is for the GOP.  Just as polls show
     pro-choice Republican presidential candidates doing better in a final
     election, anti-AA democrats do better also.  It is a matter of
     bringing votes in without losing your base.  Where are traditional
     liberal groups going to go if Clinton abandons AA - a Jesse third
     party ?  Paper tiger.  So I predict Clinton will cave on AA.
    
      bb

| <<< Note 438.93 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "You-Had-Forty-Years!!!" >>>


| I've given up on you man.  You simply fail to see your racist
| tendencies!  You mean well but you got egg on your face!

	Jack, you say you give up, and then follow it with accusational crap.
Care to give some details?

 ZZ   | I am focusing on white males not getting theirs.
    
 ZZ           You mean for a change, don't you?
    
    Glen, it was this response that got you the crap from me.  What you
    have shown here is that you posess the multiculturalism mentality that
    continues to stir up suspicion, envy, and strife within our society.  
    The old get-even-withem-ism thought process.  I feel bad Glen because
    you're shooting yourself in the foot man!
    
    -Jack

Scene One:  

The basenote, telling a story of a white racist dirtbag
employer and some ugly office shenanigans, is entered anonymously. 
Immediately, the authenticity of the story is questioned.  Discussion
continues about how to take action against the employer.

Scene Two:

Attempts to put the basenoter on the defensive are made.  
"You let your husband call you stupid?"  "What are you afraid of?"

Scene Three:

The great turnaround scene!  Awright, yeah, well, this coulda 
happened, sure.  But, what about real discrimination (meaning
the kind that happens to white males!!)  Yeah, yeah, what about
AFFIRMATIVE ACTION!!!  (The chorus begins to chant Affirmative
Action...Affirmative Action...Affirmative Action...)  A flurry
of notes appears, decrying the poor downtrodden white male :-(
Never allowed to "get his" because of the evyl AA!

What a joke.


 

| <<< Note 438.103 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "You-Had-Forty-Years!!!" >>>


| Glen, it was this response that got you the crap from me.  

	In the future, please use the proper waste recepticles please. 

| What you have shown here is that you posess the multiculturalism mentality 
| that continues to stir up suspicion, envy, and strife within our society. The 
| old get-even-withem-ism thought process.  

	How you took what I said to mean that is beyond me. 

| I feel bad Glen because you're shooting yourself in the foot man!

	Ouch....

 ZZ   LANDO::OLIVER_B                                      26 lines 
 ZZ   31-MAY-1995 11:37
 ZZ                              -< About this string... >-
    
    Relax, these types of strings usually move from one type of
    discrimination issue to another.  The base note simply ran out of
    steam.
    
    Either you hire based on skin pigmentation and gender....or you don't. 
    Which is it??
    
    -Jack

    
    re, .104 - We noters have an unalienable right to rat hole topics.
             
       Give me a digression, or give me death !
    
       bb

>    Relax, these types of strings usually move from one type of
>    discrimination issue to another.

I am relaxed.  And you can almost always predict what direction
they'll move in too ------------------------>>>>evyl AA.

>Either you hire based on skin pigmentation and gender

Well, the dirtbag employer subscribes to this form of hiring,
don't he?

re: .97

>    Since no one was considered who didn't have a BS in Comp. Sci. with a
>    GPA of 3.0 or better success was assured.

Thank you for reminding me that I am doomed to failure here at Digital.

Bob

    .110
    
    Well, Bob, you're in good company (or bad, depending on your point of
    view).  I too lack a degree in Comp. Sci.  Or in anything else, for
    that matter.

    
    Well, I've received the third degree.
    
      bb

So, Mr. Binder, you never let schooling get in the
way of your education, eh?

    .113
    
    Cogito quod ego mihi modicam educationem dedi.

I'm in good company.

re:.85

>I haven't heard anyone complain about folks getting jobs per se.

Then Brian, what is impetus for welfare reform?

re:.113 >never let schooling get in the way of your education, eh?

That was clever.

    >Thank you for reminding me that I am doomed to failure here at Digital.
    
     Hint: That A implies B does not mean that !A implies !B.
    
     It has not been stated that a lack of a degree & 3.0 GPA translates
    into failure, only that a degree and a 3.0 GPA translates into success.

    Brandon, I would venture to guess it has to do with hand outs versus
    hand ups.  A temporary, conditional assistance in times of need versus
    entitlements.  Far too simplistic to be sure.  BTW, my reply was merely
    an observation that I have not seen (heard) anyone in here cry out
    merely because folks in <pick your favorite group> have gotten a job. 
    My observation is that it is the hiring and promotion practices that show
    preferential treatment to minority groups over scholastic achievment,
    qualifications, test scores etc. etc.  
    
    Brian

    .118
    
    > ...a degree and a 3.0 GPA translates into success.
    
    Tell that to the kollidje graduets who are flippin bergers.  Theres
    plenty of em around.

But they're flipping them better than any high school dropout around.

    >Tell that to the kollidje graduets who are flippin bergers.  Theres
    >plenty of em around.
    
     Not too many kollidge graduets with 3.0 GPAs in CS flippin' bergers, I
    reckon. Not nearly as many, as, say, history majors, or
    "communications" majors. etc.

    
    What was that with flipping SCHARNbergers and college graduates ?
    (my last exam is on June 27th, btw, 9:00 CEST, so keep your fingers
     crossed)
    
    Heiko

Is a Scharnburger a new Burger King speciality, then?

Chris.

I didn't know Amos was into gymnastics.

    >           <<< Note 438.124 by CBHVAX::CBH "Lager Lout" >>>
    
    >Is a Scharnburger a new Burger King speciality, then?
    
    so long as its got mushrooms and swiss cheese, I'll give it a go.
    
    POL.

    berger, and (as far as the topic title is concerned), I ain't 
    got no public mushroom.

>    got no public mushroom.
            ^^^^^^
Oo-er!  Sounds a bit like... oh, never mind.

Chris.

re: Note 438.119 (Brian)

>Brandon, I would venture to guess it has to do with hand outs versus
>hand ups.  A temporary, conditional assistance in times of need versus
>entitlements.

I would submit to you that the hand up has been exceedingly small and quickly
retracted, while the hand out is not nearly as pervasive as you perceive.

I have expressed before that I agree there are abuses, and they may take many
forms. I'm not at all convinced for example that a strategy of "program for 
failure" doesn't exist to further all kinds of agendas, not the least of which
would be the old divide and conquer tactic.

So, based on .0 do you think the need is no more?

>Far too simplistic to be sure.

I'm not sure how you mean this.

Are you saying your first paragraph is too simplistic a description of the
the AWM objection or of AA?

>BTW, my reply was merely an observation that I have not seen (heard) anyone
>in here cry out merely because folks in <pick your favorite group> have
>gotten a job. 

My, my.

'Hand up' vs. 'Hand out'...'entitlements'...'preferential treatment'...

...and you're just a casual observer...c'mon Brian this is Brandon you're
talkin' to here. Y'know, people mix our names up all the time (well at least
mine, I don't know about you); I've been a boxer almost since I walked into
DEC-er-DIGITAL's door...and I've seen plenty of other notes by you...you're
not just the teensy, eensy, weeniest bit sympathetic to that (IMO) myopic POV?

>My observation is that it is the hiring and promotion practices that show
>preferential treatment to minority groups over scholastic achievment,
>qualifications, test scores etc. etc.  

The fact that scholastic achievement, test scores, qualifications and the like
are continuously expressed in terms of 'minority deficit' tells me that the
reverse circumstance is not being heard nor considered. If a position is
occupied by an unqualified individual it is assured the qualified individuals,
whoever they are, are locked out.

You may hear reports that lead you to believe white males are becoming the 
'second class' citizen in droves due to all of the above you mention but
Let's look at what they've actually had to give up and why:

	o Earnings as related to Education for blacks per $1000 for whites
	  as reported in 1990 census figures consistently show a $200 disparity
	  over high school and college graduate/non-graduate levels for males;
	  $30 disparity for females.

	o Unemployment rates for blacks have averaged 2.5 times or greater
	  than that of whites over the last 30 years. (Last hired, first
	  fired).

	o Blacks who finish college have a jobless rate 2.24 times that for
	  whites with diplomas.

	o Whites have retained a preferential status in the private
	  professional sector; the area where most strife is being felt is in
	  "blue collar" job opportunities.

	o More manufacturing jobs are being moved to countries
	  where a very low paid labor pool with no benefits or protection
	  can be exploited.

	o If such disparities exist at the entrance of the work place, what
	  percentage of supervisory positions do you _really_ think are granted
	  within?

My take on it is, while exhortations to get a job resound, they
implicitly mean despite all manner of artifice, in the lowest sector, and if
those are scarce then find something less, unless it's something you can be
exploited for.

    Brandon,
    
    This has nothing to do with welfar reform.  You initially made a point
    about people, AWMs, complaining about people in certain groupd merely
    getting a job.  I shared my observation that I had not seen any
    evidence to support this.  Noone has said directly or indirectly that
    they were angry because someone from a minority gorup had simply gotten
    a job.  Hiring quotas, preferential treatment, AA?  Yes, plenty of
    railing against that in here.  
    
    I have not taken a stance either way.  As I indicated in .119, my
    observation of what AWMs are complaining about is partially what I
    stated.  The hand ups being a mere pittance of what is really required
    was not being disputed up until now.  All I shared was what my
    observation has been of what has transpired in this file and what I
    have been reading in the news.  I find it intersting you know what my 
    perception of the pervasiveness of hand outs is when I haven't shared 
    this.  
    
    Based upon .0 and from personal experience, I do not for a minute believe 
    that we have reached a point where a color blind society exists and 
    requires more work from all quarters.  Taking .0 at face value, I
    believe the employer should be prosecuted and held accountable for
    their illegal, prejudicial hiring practices.  
    
    As far as my statement of .."far too simplistic...", yes, it is far too
    simplistic a description of what I understand the AWM agenda to be and
    far too simplistic of AA policies.  
    
    >> My, my.
    
    >> 'Hand up' vs. 'Hand out'...'entitlements'...'preferential treatment'...
    
    >> ...and you're just a casual observer...c'mon Brian this is Brandon
    >>you're talkin' to here. Y'know, people mix our names up all the time 
    >>(well at least mine, I don't know about you); I've been a boxer almost 
    >>since I walked into DEC-er-DIGITAL's door...and I've seen plenty of 
    >>other notes by you...you're not just the teensy, eensy, weeniest bit 
    >>sympathetic to that (IMO) myopic POV?
    
    Casual observer?  No.  Interested observer?  Yes.  Sympathetic?  Perhaps I 
    am to a point.  I am definitely not sympathetic to the employer in .0
    however.  I can share with you that I get angered when I hear about abuses 
    in the system and believe some sort of reform is in order.  This is no 
    different than the anger I feel when I read about instances such as in .0 
    which was really the point of the entire string, no?  Do you not get
    angered when you read about the abuses in the system?  Do you not
    believe this hurts everyone that the system was designed to help?  
    
    Since you have directed this to me specifically,  I will give you a
    more personal response.  I get the feeling from your note that you see me 
    as just another white guy with a chip on his shoulder because everyone else 
    is taking something away from him.  This is certainly not how I would 
    characterize myself nor do I believe I have given you or anyone else 
    sufficient evidence to draw this conclusion.  As usual though, YMMV.  
    
    Brian
    
    

Cadet Rolland Montefalcon was expecting his ossifers commission in the
Air Farce tomorrow; instead, he may be sent packing off to boot camp
to pay back his ROTC scholarship as an enlisted man.

He's screaming "racism", claiming that Lieutenant Colonel Gail Gilbert,
the BU ROTC CO, is prejudiced against him because of his Filipino
background.

LTC Gilbert has busted him because of a number of instances of
"breaches of integrity" and "substandard performance."

Montefalcon has said that the stakes involved were so high that he
was justified in secretly taping a conversation he had with Gilbert
last week, even though Massachusetts law prohibits taping conversations
unless all parties consent.

IMHO, that particular breach of integrity alone is enough to prevent
anyone from becoming an officer in the service of our country.  He
should not consider himself above the law, and should have gotten a
court order to tape the conversation if the stakes were truly so high.

/john