Conference back40::soapbox

The bombing is being treated as a Middle Eastern incident.

Oklahoma City is said to be the largest center of radical Islamic groups
outside the Middle East.  Large convention of Hamas and and other groups
was held in okcity last summer.

These are groups which oppose American support for Israel and will kill
as many Americans as possible to try to get Israel to leave Palestine.
We will be seeing many more incidents like this and worse.

/john

Hearst Newspapers

WASHINGTON -- Counter-terrorism experts suspect Islamic fundamentalists
were behind the devastating car bombing of the Oklahoma City federal
building on Wednesday.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation issued an all-points bulletin for three
suspects seen fleeing the area in a rented brown pickup truck, including
two described as appearing to be of Middle Eastern origin.

The specialists, including the former head of counter-terrorism at the
Federal Bureau of Investigation, said the bombing resembled four previous
Muslim fundamentalist attacks against American citizens that were designed
to maximize the number of casualties:

-- The World Trade Center bombing in the heart of New York City's financial
district in 1993 that killed six and wounded more than 1,000;

-- The mid-air destruction of Pan Am 103 over Scotland in 1988 that killed
259 passengers and 11 people on the ground;

-- The truck-bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Beirut in April, 1983 that
killed 46 including 16 Americans and injured more than 100.

-- The truck-bombing of the Marine Corps barracks in Beirut in October,
1983 that killed 241 Marines.

ABC News reported that the FBI had asked the Pentagon to assign 10
Arabic-speaking investigators to help pursue leads in the case.

President Clinton declared that the United States "will not tolerate, and I
will not allow, the people of this country to be intimidated by evil
cowards."

Clinton vowed "the strongest response" to the attack, adding: The killers
will be "treated like killers" with justice that is "swift, certain and
severe."

Attorney General Janet Reno said the U.S. government would seek the death
penalty against the unnamed plotters.

John Magaw, the former U.S. Secret Service official now heading the federal
Bureau Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, said the Oklahoma City device weighed
up to 1,200 pounds -- about the size of the truck-bomb planted by Muslim
fanatics beneath the World Trade Center in the heart of Manhattan's
financial district in 1993.

"I think any time you have this kind of damage, this kind of explosion, you
have to look (at terrorism) first," Magaw said.

Oklahoma Gov. Frank Keating, who headed the ATF in the Reagan
administration, declared: "Obviously, no amateur did this," adding: "Right
now there are no suspects -- everybody is a suspect."

Robert Heibel, the former FBI deputy director of counter-terrorism who now
directs the research intelligence program at Mercyhurst College in Erie,
Pa., said he suspected Islamic terrorists.

"My feeling is if it looks like a duck, talks like a duck and walks like a
duck, it's probably a duck," Heibel said. "Car bombings are the tool of
Islamic fundamentalists."

Dr. Jerrold M. Post, a terrorism expert at George Washington University who
formerly produced psychological profiles of foreign leaders for the Central
Intelligence Agency, agreed that the bombing reflected the tactics and
technology of Muslim extremists.

"Terrorism is designed to have an audience," Post said. "In most major
terrorist incidents, responsibility is eventually claimed as a way of
demonstrating the power and credibility of the cause."

Skip Brandon, a retired FBI counter-terrorism specialist, said federal
investigators will comb the bombing site for evidence of possible suspects
as they successfully did following the World Trade Center bombing.

"The crime scene will talk to you if you let it," Brandon said. "But it has
to be preserved."

The attack came amid the largest criminal trial of alleged foreign-based
terrorists in American history. Federal authorities are prosecuting a band
of Muslim extremists in New York City for allegedly carrying out the
truck-bombing of the twin-towers of the World Trade Center complex on Feb.
26, 1993 that killed six and injured more than 1,000.

Twelve followers of Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, an exiled blind Egyptian
cleric, are still on trial. Four others have already been convicted and
sentenced to 240 years each in prison.

Bill Licatovich, a spokesman for the U.S. Marshal's Service in Washington,
said security has been heightened at the New York courthouse in recent
weeks.

"They took extra precautions for that," he said, referring to the trial.

Heibel, the former FBI official, said he has "been waiting for the other
shoe to drop," adding: "We've got their Imam, we've got their people in
prison. We always suspected they would hit any where any time. Now the game
gets serious."

Both Post and Heibel ruled out the possibility that embittered followers of
the Branch Davidian movement carried out the attack in retaliation for the
April 19, 1994, raid on their compound outside Waco, Texas, in which dozens
were killed.

The Branch Davidian sect "doesn't have a violent method of operation," Post
said. "They are a religious cult that believes in the coming of the
millennium. Violence occurred because of their standoff with society."

Peter Smerick, a former FBI agent who wrote psychological profiles of David
Koresh during the 51-day standoff in Waco, said he would be "very, very
surprised" if supporters of the Branch Davidians were involved in the
Oklahoma City explosion.

"I did not come across with the feeling that we were dealing with people
who were violence prone," Smerick said. "While they may have considered the
fact that some day the government was going to attack them, they were not
going out and attacking anybody else."

Heibel said that ultra right-wing neo-Nazi organizations have carried out
terrorist attacks in the Southwest over the past decade but none of the
organizations demonstrated the capability to carry out a car bombing.

"These groups have basically carried out armed robberies, murders, little
bombings against the Internal Revenue Service but nothing like this,"
Heibel said.

White House Press Secretary Mike McCurry said the Central Intelligence
Agency, the eavesdropping National Security Agency and the FBI's
counter-terrorism branch were "carefully scrubbing every available piece of
information, digging as deeply as we can, to see if there's anything that
might provide a helpful lead."

Brandon, the retired FBI expert, said investigators will review material
gathered by intelligence agencies to check for suspicious movements of
equipment and personnel in recent weeks. Potentially incriminating
communications picked up by the NSA also will be reviewed to spot anything
pertaining to the Oklahoma City attack.

"You go back and look at everything that's available and ask other
intelligence services to do the same," Brandon said. "You look at both
foreign or domestic."

Experts said the technology to produce such a devastating explosive device
is easily available. For example, a book available in may bookstores has
instructions for manufacturing explosive devices from household products,
fertilizer and other materials on sale at hardware stores or supermarkets.

Diagrams are included showing how to wire a variety of detonators including
chemical, electric and non-electric detonators.

Reuters

NEW YORK - For the second time in two years, assailants using a rented
truck to transport a massive bomb have killed innocent people, injured
thousands and thrown an American city into panic.

And they have for the second time shown just how vulnerable the United
States, with its traditions of an open society and freedom even to buy a
gun, can be for anyone committed to an act of violence.

The destruction of the Albert Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City
sends the same chilling message that the bombers of New York City's World
Trade Centre did in 1993 -- no one is safe anywhere.

"A terrorist gains by creating a climate of fear -- they want us to think
that they can get us anytime, anywhere," said Steven Emerson, a leading
expert on Islamic extremists. And they can, he said.

That bloody message explodes in a city where no one expects such a thing to
happen.

One might anticipate an act of terrorism in New York, America's media
capital, especially after the Trade Centre blast and a plot to blow up the
United Nations and the city's bridges and tunnels and its federal office
building.

But Oklahoma City, a friendly, easy-going city of half-a-million in the
heart of Middle America, is supposed to be more synonymous with the musical
"Oklahoma" than with terror, and terrorism experts say that could be the
reason for the explosion that destroyed the Murrah building, leaving it one
vast hole nine floors long.

"Whoever did it, picked an easy target, certainly easier than the World
Trade Centre is today. Terrorists always pick targets where they are going
to succeed," said Ira Lipman, presidents Guardsmark Inc., one of the
country's largest security firms.

Americans, almost inured to acts ot violence, seemed stunned by the
explosion. President Clinton marched out of a news briefing, refusing to
take question as if he could not control his anger.

No group has as yet come forward and the FBI refuses to confirm reports
that it is hunting two Middle Eastern men. Islamic militants were convicted
of the Trade Centre bombing and are on trial now for the bombing spree
plot.

Attorney General Janet Reno said it was too early to speculate and many
terrorism experts agreed with her.

"It could be a contractor who has access to explosives, a farmer who has
access to fertiliser, it could be a wacko, it could be a professional
trying to cover his tracks by using a simple device," expert Jack Kingston
told CNN.

"There are also about 10,000 pounds of explosives that are stolen and
recovered every year and 10,000 detonators so these devices are available.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to create this kind of bomb. You do
have to be very, very careful and very, very determined."

Emerson, in an interview with Reuters, agreed to a point. "There is no
smoking gun. But the modus operandi and circumstantial evidence leads in
the direction of Islamic terrorism."

He said Oklahoma City has been for the past decade a centre for radical
Islamic activity in the United States, a place where radicals established
homes and networks. It has also been the site of various Islamic
conventions including one in 1992 where 6,000 people cheered calls for
killing Jews and infidels, Emerson said.

But Wednesday was also the second anniversary of the storming of Branch
Davidian headquarters in nearby Waco, Texas, and some experts wondered if
the blast was connected to the cult that died in flames.

"As in the World Trade Centre case, an informant and a slip-up are needed
to solve this," Emerson said.

The big break in that case came when officials discovered the man who had
rented the truck that carried the 1,200-pound bomb to the garage of New
York's tallest building.

They did that because the man signed his own name to the rental form and
gave his right address. Then the FBI came up with an informant.

Now many experts are wondering if the Oklahoma blast was connected to the
capture two months ago of the alleged mastermind of the Trade Centre
bombing, Ramzi Ahmed Yousef, in Pakistan after a $2 million reward had been
promised.

His capture led to vows of revenge. Was Oklahoma, where "the grass grows as
high as an elephant's eye," the place for that retribution?

TIME magazine:

EXCLUSIVE: AN ISLAMIC CONNECTION? The bombing has some of the hallmarks of
Islamic terrorists, intelligence experts tell TIME correspondent Edward
Barnes. They discounted American radical groups for several reasons. Among
them: few, if any, U.S. groups have the skills used in this bombing, and
the car bomb is a signature weapon of several Islamic groups, but no known
American ones. In addition, perhaps coincidentally, there was a major
national conference of a large Muslim group in Oklahoma City last weekend.
The group, the Islamic Society of North America, is normally considered
moderate, but Barnes says it has promoted a number of radicals to
leadership roles in recent months. Experts interviewed by TIME today also
said that Oklahoma City was not necessarily a surprising spot for a
terrorist attack, since it has a huge Middle Eastern population drawn by
the area's oil fields.

    This is not a good form of evangelism.

    re last few..
    
    
    car Bombs are not exclusively used by islamic fundamentalists, other
    countries that have been subjected top this terror for years include
    
    	Great Britain (IRA TERRORISTS)
    	Spain (Basque TERRORISTS)
    	Turkey (Kurdist TERRORISTS)
    	India (various terrorist groups)
    	Italy (Mafia terrorists)
    	Columbia (Drug syndicate Terrorists)
    
    	etc etc etc etc etc
    
    	

    As usual the Terrorists strike out at innocent people to make their
    pathetic points, they are frustrated that no-one listens to their
    points of view, so they kill as many as they can to make a point.
    
    I think it is a little immature however of the president and all the
    other
    	White house officials say things like "we are going bring them to
    	justice quickly etc, and we'll use the death penalty blah blah"
    
    If they begin making promises like that they put immense pressure on
    themselves to come up with a suspect............
    
    Also...
    
    Just think how Americans might feel if these terrorists went to Europe
    and they were seen to be fighting for justice and liberty and the right
    to choose there own destiny, and treated as heroes. Perhaps even
    invited
    	to see European heads of state. Then maybe we can realise how the 
    Brits might have felt at seeing the IRA treated in the same way on
    it's visits to America.
    
    Just to repeat I think the whole business is disgraceful and the
    sooner we co-operae internationally the better.
    
    
    I'm sorry to hear it happenng in America, but I can't help so many
    people in the US take it so personally, that someone dared to attack
    Americans as if they were some special race of people who everyone
    should cower in front of, that Americans are not going to be
    intimidated in this way.....
    
    	Michel

RE: 393.6 by SHIPS::BUCZMA_G

> car Bombs are not exclusively used by islamic fundamentalists, other
> countries that have been subjected top this terror for years include

>        Great Britain (IRA TERRORISTS)

If it turns out to be a homegrown terror group rather than some import, 
how long is it before the Prime Minister invites the leader(s) of said
group over for high tea?


Phil 

    
    
    i do believe i heard this morning that they have located the brown
    truck in which the suspects reportedly fled.  a manhunt still continues
    for the men, who are (again, reportedly) of middle eastern decent.
    
    

    re .8
    
    I'm sorry I don't understand the question!
    
    cheers

RE: 393.10 by SHIPS::BUCZMA_G

> I'm sorry I don't understand the question!

A lot of people over in England were very unhappy about the IRA leader (can't
remember his name) coming to the US and meeting with Clinton about a year
ago.


Phil

    
    .7  I believe you meant premature not immature.

    .10 was sarcastically referring to the diplomatic idiotic response
        of making kissy-face with some country or group that has just
        done something irresponsibly violent, no?
    
        as to the white house's response, it was perfectly appropriate.
        just because they would prosecute to the stated intent doesn't
        mean they'd be 100% successful.
    
        my guess is if BC had not took that firm stand and skirted the
        w/h's intent he would've been clobbered for that to by the usual
        presidential piranha feeding frenzy. in fact, i'm surprised
        no one yelling conspiracy here as an aid to his campaign! 
    
        Chip

    >of middle eastern decent.
    
    descent

    
    
    thank you...i thought that was wrong, but can't remember where i left
    my dictionary...
    
    

    Don't need one when there are so many people casting spells...

re:                   <<< Note 393.7 by FNYCNV::SPA_CONV_REO >>>

>    If they begin making promises like that they put immense pressure on
>    themselves to come up with a suspect............

I share some of the concern here. Not insofar as the matter of putting
pressure on themselves, but with respect to the high liklihood of need
to come up with ANY suspect, regardless of whether or not it's the
right one. In situations such as this which raise the ire of the entire
nation, the atmosphere is set for enforcement officials to "shoot first
and ask questions later", as it were. The masses tend  to become less
critical in their scrutiny of the law in deciding whether the right
party has been apprehended or whether we've just settled for some random
scapegoat. Obviously, I'd like to see the guilty parties strung up by
their genitalia, but the concern remains that we as a nation may tend to
be less than vigilant in assuring that we have the right guilty party
in these types of circumstances. It's not at all dissimilar to the
fabricated personifications of "the enemy" in Orwell's 1984.

>    I'm sorry to hear it happenng in America, but I can't help so many
>    people in the US take it so personally, that someone dared to attack
>    Americans as if they were some special race of people who everyone
>    should cower in front of, that Americans are not going to be
>    intimidated in this way.....

This I fail to understand at all. I don't know who you are, by virtue of
the clever user name, or where you are, as I didn't bother to try and
locate your node, but do you somehow feel that Americans react to these
terrorist activities in an unreasonable fashion? How the hell do you
react to them in your country? Are we perhaps supposed to calmly accept
it? Do we stand back and rationalize that we "deserved" it? I think
not.

    What if it is not imported terrorism nor fringe American terrorism from
    disgruntled <insert disgruntlement of choice>?
    
    I'll hold off on my paranoid conspiracy theory until I see what form of
    repercussions this bombing causes.  If nothing I look for comes out of
    it, my money will be on the middle east (Islamic fundamentalists), as
    current theory has it.
    
    
    -steve

    Leech,
    
    Every expert without exception concurred with what has been 
    written, "this is not a homegrown bomb".  True, it wouldn't take
    a rocket scientist to build one (it's been said that the "recipe"
    has been on the Internet for some time).
    
    
    .6  Won't argue about your list, but find it unlikely that any
    	of those groups did the deed.  The Islamic groups seem logical
    	because of the WTC trial and the recent arrest of another of
    	their leaders.
    
    I think the White House is being overly optimistic about capture at
    this point; it's hardly likely that the perps will be dumb enough
    to back for their deposit on this truck!!
    
    Also, if the terrorist DO NOT try to leave the country, but instead
    blend back into the Arabic community, it could be almost impossible
    to locate them unless someone talks or someone decides he wants to
    be a martyr.
    

re. .7
        
>    I'm sorry to hear it happenng in America, but I can't help so many
>    people in the US take it so personally, that someone dared to attack
>    Americans as if they were some special race of people who everyone
>    should cower in front of, that Americans are not going to be
>    intimidated in this way.....
    

	You're damn right alot of us take it personally.  Is that
	too "low brow" of a concept for you?  

	Please, kick us some more while we're down.

	Damn!  We haven't even buried the innocent babies who were killed
	and you're in here beating your IRA vs. Brits drum.  Stick it.

Most Disrespectfully,

Clay

    what Clay said...
    
    Chip

    Re: .7
    
    >but I can't help so many people in the US take it so personally, that 
    >someone dared to attack Americans as if they were some special race
    
    We are special.  Unlike most other countries, we have not had an
    opportunity to accustom ourselves to terrorist attacks.  We're the last
    virgins, so to speak.

    Lay you 10 to 1 odds we haven't learned our lesson yet...and that this
    sort of thing will happen again.
    
    Remember, the criminal is not at fault.  He/she is a victim!
    
    -Jack

Jack, how do you propose we prevent bombings by fanatics?

    I don't think any American thinks that our country immune to this sort
    of attack. My personal opinion is that we have been extremely lucky
    up to this point.  We live in a country where illegal aliens flow
    into the country with ease.  Our country is so large that it would
    be an enormous feat to have any semblance of control over our borders.
    It is apparently very easy for people of all countries to enter our
    country as "students".  
    
    There are so many groups on the international scene that see America
    as the "great Satan" and are willing to martyr themselves for the
    cause, it's amazing we haven't seen more terrorism here.
    
    Sometimes I think that we would have been better off by keeping some
    of the heightened security at airports etc. that we had during the
    Gulf War.  
    
    -Elizabeth

    
    RE: .24
    
    >Jack, how do you propose we prevent bombings by fanatics?
    
    Gerald,
    
     I think the Israelis are the best at this... We may not be able to
    prevent such bombings, but I believe we can keep them at a minimum by
    applying a dear cost to the perps and their suppliers...
    
      With our technology, "surgery" is very precise....
    

    Well, now that you mention it, Israel was the example I intended to
    use.
    
    Fear and pain are international languages.  It works for Israel for the
    most part.  What we need to do is hold people accountable for their
    actions...which apparently we haven't done for a while.
    
    By the way, the arsonist of Waco isn't a whole lot better.
    
    -Jack

Focus on Mideast as bombing suspects sought

Boston Globe

WASHINGTON -- As they struggled with the shock of Wednesday's massive
bombing in Oklahoma City, government specialists in terrorism were coming
to a grim realization: the attack had crossed a line never before crossed
in America.

"This is the big one," said one security specialist.

"It has to be a turning point, a water shed," said Stanley Bedlington, a
retired senior analyst at the CIA's counter-terrorist center.

With investigators focusing on who was behind the bombing, attention
quickly turned to a Middle East connection.

A law enforcement source said there were several facts that suggested such
a link, such as the size and sophistication of the bomb as well as
information that there are several militant Middle Eastern groups based in
Oklahoma. One of the groups, the source said, is called the Muslim
Community of Al-Jihad, which lists a post office box in Granite, Okla.

"It is unfair to suspect all Muslims, but there is a militant fringe
there," he said.

One image seems to have triggered the same conclusion among
counter-terrorism officers across Washington -- a TV shot of the building,
one whole side sheered away.

A couple of hours after the explosion, an intelligence officer was talking
on the phone to a journalist. "At this point we don't have any idea who did
it," he was saying. As he spoke, he noticed TV footage of the building.
"Whoops," he said. "Looks like Beirut."

The bombing of the US embassy in Beirut on April 18, 1983, was the work of
a suicide car bomber and killed 63 people, 17 of them Americans. Similar
methods were used in the bombing of a Jewish center in Buenos Aires in July
1994, where 95 people died. The radical Islamic Hizbollah group is believed
to have been responsible for both those bombings.

John Magaw, director of the Bureau Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, said that
the Oklahoma City bomb weighed between 1,000 and 1,200 pounds -- similar in
size to the device used in the Feb. 26, 1993, attack on World Trade Center
in New York. Six people were killed and more than 1,000 injured in that
bombing.

Pointing to similarities between the World Trade Center attack and Oklahoma
City, one federal official said, "To develop a bomb of that size and to
carry out a terrorist strike of this magnitude suggests a high level of
planning and sophistication. It would require a sustained commitment."

Elie Krakowski, a Boston University professor of international affairs and
a former consultant to the Pentagon on terrorism, warned that without
aggressive countermeasures the US could see more such attacks.

"The signature looks Middle Eastern," noted Sherman Teichman, an expert on
terrorism at Tufts University. "But we have to be very careful not to be
too quick to judge. It is too easy to demonize the region and the religion
of Islam."

By the middle of the afternoon Wednesday, the FBI, CIA, National Security
Agency and an array of other intelligence and security organizations had
convened in Washington for an urgent teleconference to pull together what
they knew.

FBI officials were working on the assumption that the explosion was
produced by a car bomb. Others participants at the meeting brainstormed
what had happened this day in history, in search of possible hints of the
identity of the perpetrators. It was the second anniversary of the
devastating attack on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas. Branch
Davidian members Wednesday firmly denied any connection.

The CIA and FBI agreed that the modus operandi looked very much like the
1983 Beirut bombing. Eight individuals had phoned to claim responsibility,
officials at the meeting were told. All but one or two were from groups
that appeared to be Middle Eastern. One other came from an extremist
"militia" that seemed to be some sort of survivalist group.

Five members of New York's joint terrorism task-force, which includes FBI
agents and police investigators, were on their way to Oklahoma City to
assist in the investigation.

The tragedy and the high loss of life is likely to trigger a whole new
approach to security in public buildings, officials predicted -- "a
modified siege mentality," said one -- along with demands from politicians
for more aggressive actions against groups in the Middle East and elsewhere
thought to be behind terrorist attacks.

From a terrorist's point of view, former CIA official Bedlington noted, the
Oklahoma City bomb was perfectly placed. The timing and location -- 9 a.m.
local time, right in front of the main entrance -- were apparently chosen
for maximum human destruction.

Terror bombers look for a place where security is lax, Bedlington said.
They want a target with symbolic significance -- like a government building
-- and they need a location where they have a support cell, sympathizers
who can provide logistical assistance and concealment.

 There are plenty of other countries from whom we could withdraw support
 before Israel, IMO.




 Jim

    re .30
    
    Out of curiosity what percentage of the budget is spent as foreign aid
    for Israel IYO?
    
    meg

    
    How long did it take to find the suspects for the New York bombing?
    
    MEP
    

 Not too long..week or so?  Returning for the rental deposit on the van
 helped considerably.



 Jim

    Forget cutting off Israel; they are the only people that have the
    intestinal fortitude to deal with terrorists.
    
    Elizabeth brought out a good point about easy access to our country
    by students.  A talk show this AM was discussing "a free and open
    society".  People were calling in saying we have to do something,
    but there were many others who said they don't want the government
    interfering in their lives; top level security would demand that we
    sacrifice a lot of our freedom of movement.  I can think of a lot
    of people in this conference that would go ballistic if Uncle Sam
    intruded more than he does now.
    
    Israel deals with terrorism best but even they are not successful
    100% of the time, they can't be when people are willing to go on
    suicide missions to attain their goals.
    
    I tried to think of what we could do, but most of it really isn't
    practical:
    
    	Prevent ALL entrance to US by all Arab citizens?
    	Try to use existing records (if they exist) to round up all
    	 	Arab citizens already here?  What about those who may
    		have become US citizens?
    
    Chels is right; we've been virgins up to now.  We sat and watched
    it happen in London, Beruit, (pick a spot in the middle East).
    
    One former Navy Seal intelligence officer said we've slowly been
    dismantling the intelligence units of many agencies (we were told
    they had been bad boys and this was goodness).  The signs have been
    all around us and we no longer have any organization with the tools
    and skills to accurately read what's been happening under our noses.
    
    IMO, some of you were a little harsh on the guy from across the pond.
    Seems a little arrogant to claim that Americans are any more special
    that other folks who have been dealing (and sacrificing) because this
    has been in their backyards for some time.
    
    We've been damn lucky, but our luck has just run out.
    
                                                         

    re.7
    
    We take it personally, because we are a united country, as in 
    United States of America. You see the the same people from state
    to state. The problem with Europe is 500 miles in another 
    country separated by culture,language etc. It's easy to let
    things like this happen.Because it's the other country's
    problem.
    
    And most of us are raised to care about our fellow man.
    
    This act though crosses borders. It's a monsterous act. 
    
    Dave
    
    
    

    
    Somehow I don't think that will be happening this time, although the
    rental agencies would be a good place to start to get descriptions.
    
    The news last night was sickening.  These militant groups will never
    learn that they will not get people to listen by these types of
    actions. Funny, but after the attempted terriost acts of Libya and 
    then the US going over and bombing shortly after, they quieted down....
    
    

    
    
        As good as the Israelis are in counter-terrorism,...they
        can't stop it either. They close their borders,..etc., and
        are still hit. It's like,..I hit you and you hit me,..I bomb
        you and you bomb me,...it's insane.
    
        Ed

    It is atroocious that it took 2 years to try the twin towers bombers.  
    How about a separate justice system for foreign terrorists caught?
    
    Kind of like military code being different?!
    
    -Jack

    Networks just broke in; per BBC and Reuters, a suspect has been
    detained at Heathrow.  Suspect had flown out of Chicago on US
    passport; apparently the Brits do a thorough screening, this
    guy didn't pass muster and they detained him.
    
    

    One is chagrined to report that he agrees with the Brits who are now
    laughing at Clinton's determination to find and punish these murderers
    as they recall the White House welcome extended to Gerry Adams last
    month.  
    
    DougO

    
    After this, the threat of some nuclear incident becomes more real.
    I pray that it will never happen, but whoever is capable of doing
    this type of thing. Would have no hesitation in letting a nuclear
    device go off in one of our cities or towns.
    
    
    
    
    Dave
    
    
    

    
    .32 re Israel aid.
    
    it is in the range of 5 to 6 billion dollars out of a budget of
    1.4 trillion dollars. small % of budget. 
     
    btw, Egypt gets about 4 to 5 billion.
    
    folks don't expect too much in the way of retaliation from the war
    hero in the white house. 

    
    re. -43
    
    didn't Clinton do something when Bush was Threatened awhile ago?
    
    Dave
    

       
    
    
        .35
    
        "Round up all Arabs",.....is that like "round up all Japanese"??
    
         Get Real!! If this does have a so called mideast connection,...
         ....the mideast is a big place. What if the bombing has a
         "Pakistan connection",...do you want to "round up" all Pakistanis?
    
         Let's get our facts straight first and kick the RIGHT asses!
    
    
         Ed

    
    
    I  believe kicking some asses is beyond this spineless
    administration...
    

    
    Clinton may do something...he wants another 4 years.
    
    Dave
    

	Well, at about 3:00 we may find out more, from Janet Reno's
	press conference.

	By then the suspect arrested at Heathrow now being flown back
	may be identified.

/john

    Andy:
    
    ... I disagree. Janet will test bomb a few religious sects in
        rural America, That'll show 'em!
    
    -b

The official death toll is the number of people actually removed from the
site and taken to the morgue.

The workers have stated that their first priority is to find anyone who
may be alive, and that they are crawling over dead bodies to try to get
to the living.  Bodies still in the building, even if they have been
seen, don't count yet.

The number missing is down now, though.  There were 550 employees, and an
estimated 250 visitors in the building when the bomb went off.  Some 700
are now accounted for (dead in morgue, injured in hospitals, and others),
so the final toll may be closer to 100 than to 300.

/john

    
    
    
         I think retaliation depends on where the "trail" ends. If it
         ends in Tripoli,...or Baghdad,...then a military option is
         possible. However,...if it ends in Tehran,...well,....that's
         another story. The Israelis won't even hit Tehran! A lot of
         the training,...supplies and money that support sects like
         Hamas are reported to originate in Iran.
    
         Of course one never knows,...but no president to date has done
         anything to Iran,.....militarily. Let's face it with $14 billion
         a year in oil revenues,....in conjunction with a "candy ass"
         European community that has all kinds of economic ties with
         Tehran,.....chances are,..are "allies" won't support a military
         solution.

 Of course Baghdad has 2 of our citizens in their jails.






Jim

    Bullock, don't go foaming at the mouth, I said I knew it WASN'T
    practical to round up everyone of Arabic origin!!!!  Believe it
    or not, there ARE people already suggesting this as a viable
    option.  I wouldn't agree to this anymore than I agree with what
    we did to Japanese-Americans during WWII!!
    
    This is the dilemma of a free society.  It would be near impossible
    to get Americans to go along with the concept of border-like check-
    points or giving authorities the right to pull someone over on the read be-
    cause they didn't like their looks or they looked suspicious.
    
    I agree with the person who mentioned nuclear devices being planted.
    This could be just the tip of the iceberg.  Even if we catch all immed-
    iately involved with this incident and promptly dispatch them to
    Hades, there are probably plenty of other waiting to step into their
    shoes.
    
    We could be in for a hard row to hoe if this continues around the
    country.
    
    
    
    

Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 13:58:34 -0400 (EDT)

     (London) -- Britain says a possible suspect in the Oklahoma
bombing is being flown back to the United States.
     The British Home Office says the man carried an American
passport when he arrived in London on a flight from Chicago.
     C-N-N quotes Home Office sources as saying the man is a
Jordanian-American who was headed to Rome.
     He's now being flown home, but British officials won't give
other details.
     In Washington, a Justice Department official says, "We are
bringing back to the United States from London someone we have
reason to believe may be a witness."
     The spokesman says the man is not under arrest.

     (Copyright 1995 by The Associated Press.  All Rights Reserved.)

    
    
        .54
    
         Right,...right,...right,...what you said about "rounding them 
         up" isn't practical,...it dosen't even make sense! I'm surprised
         you even thought about it.
    
    
         Ed

    
    Tough nuts for the allies. America should take the following
    steps in dealing with this:
    
    1. Tell the UN to <r.o.> off
    
    2. Catch and try the individuals. Give the CIA explicit license
       to break the laws of other nations, if necessary, to detain
       and arrest the individuals.
    
    3. When the EC whines, tell them to see figure one.
    
    4. Apply the death penalty.
    
    5. Use the air base in Iran to launch a strike against
       Tehran. Seven days (to pick a nice Bibical number)
       of sustained B52 carpet bombing.
    
    6. Any attempt by _any_ nation to intefere militarily will
       be answered with a _nuclear_ response.
    
    7. When the bombers have flattened Tehran, on to Damascus,
       and finally Bagdad. Seven days of burning hell for each
       place.
    
    Extreme? You bet your ass. However, if I were president,
    this is exactly what I would order (so be glad I'm not).
    
    -b

 Can't say I disagree with Mr. Markey, though I'd stop short of the nookuler
 option.




Jim

    
    Jim,
    
    I would only use nukes as a threatened response to any nation
    that dared attempt to interfere (read: Russia, China, etc.)
    
    -b

    <<< Note 393.57 by MPGS::MARKEY "The bottom end of Liquid Sanctuary" >>>

Best stick with the day job, Brian.;>

    
    Oh don't worry Tom, unlike the rest of the Republican party
    (or so it seems), I _won't_ be running for President in '96! :-) :-)
    
    -b

    Um, Brian, that's stooping to their level.

    Pinpoint the terrorist stronghold and bomb it, not the entire Arab and
    Islamic world.

    Intelligence sources should be picking out targets for surgical type air
    strikes.

(Brian,
   I'd like to talk to you about capital punishment and our penal system.
   I think we can find some common ground.)

:^)

.37>    The news last night was sickening.  These militant groups will never
.37>    learn that they will not get people to listen by these types of
.37>    actions.

I often wonder if they even have the slightest desire to have anyone
"listen" to them. I think they're much too consumed with their own
"statements" to stop to think about anything else. Rarely are these
things done with and explicit threat or message asscoiated with them.

    Glenn,

    By "terrorist stronghold" you imply a military target. Good
    luck. We've been searching for such a target for years.

    Intelligence sources know of some potential targets, but
    this does not target the ideology.

    I said nothing about my plan being a "reasonable one" by
    US standards. Stooping to their level, as you put it, is
    exactly what is called for. But, we're a much more powerful
    nation, and we have the ability to lay a serious hurting
    on these people. And, I betcha there would be public support
    for such a response.

    -b

    Should be interesting if any of the suspects can be linked directly
    to Iraq.  Wasn't it just 2/3 weeks ago when the UN prevailed upon
    us to relax the imbargo because innocent Iraqi citizens were
    suffering?
    
    A follow-up report said the man being flown back from Heathrow
    is not considered a direct suspect.  He is, however, believed to
    have information about who actually planted/built the bomb.
    
    Follow-up also said that the three men are thought still to be
    in the US.  After hearing of the bombing a highway patrolman
    remembered giving directions to 3 men who stopped and asked for
    directions 50-75 miles outside of OC.  Patrolman's description matches
    the description given by a motel employee in OC.  Report said
    brown truck registration does not match license plates.  I believe
    the report said a 4th man has been picked up back in OC (my phone
    rang, didn't catch it all).
    
    

    What do the Israelis do? They don't carpet bomb Lebanon.

    
    The Isrealis don't have the resources to... we do.
    

    
    just the same, the Israelis get the job done and then some.
    

    Carpet bombing is too indiscriminate.

    The US has the resources to target specific installations. They should
    hit those hard, much like they dealt with Libya in 1986.

    
    
    The Israeli intelligence sources are incredible...
    
    And besides.. they always level the playing field... something their
    enemies understand.. and something we don't seem to..
    

    
    While I have alway respected Isreal, my respect has been ratcheted up a
    few notches.  They called and offered their assistance yesterday.  They 
    are good at dealing with this type of thing and were willing to send
    some folks over.
    
    Mike

    But Andy! Leveling the playing field is _exactly_ what I'm
    proposing! :-) :-)

    -b

    Usually, within an hour of an attack in Israel, Israeli fighters are
    sent to a target. 

    The US is capable of doing this, but has had no reason to do so until
    now.

    
    
        Israel hits their "enemy" and their "enemy" turns and hits
        Israel. For every base they hit in southern Lebanon, another
        takes it's place. For every assasin they eliminate,..another
        takes his place.
    
        They continue to attack the "client states",...not the country
        (server)....like Iran. But you know,...this can only go on for
        so long. 

    
    according to the radio news. they have arrested 3 men. All from the 
    middle east part of the world.they are being questioned.
    
    if they did it, they are to be handled over to the citizens of
    OC for hanging.....ooops slipped a bit on that thought.
    
    Also, there has been an explosion at a government building
    on Prince Edward Island. ONe killed, windows blown out..
    
    grabs your guns and dig in.
    
    Dave
    

 re .73  


 I liked that as well.  Maybe Bill and Janet Reno can take a few days off
 and let the pros handle this.





Jim

PEI?  Isn't that a rather unlikely spot for terrorism?  Did they state a cause
for the explosion?

    
    re: .76
    
    yes, but you notice that it's usually on the "frontier"? and not as
    often as one might expect in that part of the world where one wants to
    annihilate the other?
    

    
    it was just a short blurb.
    just said an explosion.
    
    

    
    
       Were the three suspects still in Oklahoma?
    
    
    
       Ed

Prince Edward Island? in Canada?

Prolly the spanish fishing-lobby terrorists :-}    
    

    
    
>       Were the three suspects still in Oklahoma?
 

      Nope..they moved to South Pacific and were last seen heading to 
      see My Fair Lady with the Music Man.   
    
    
       

>      Nope..they moved to South Pacific and were last seen heading to 
>      see My Fair Lady with the Music Man.   
    
Jim, your corn is as high as an elephant's eye.

    
    
      .84
    
    
       Oh really,......casual dress or formal?

Let's see...  Lots of spuds in PEI, lots of spuds in Idaho.
Musta been one of those Idaho survivalist groups.

The Canadians are very moral.  There are lots of veterans, but only one
has affairs.

    8^)

    The Department of Veterans Affairs is headquarted in Charlottetown.

    They showed all the employees of the different federal buildings
    who were evacuated due to sickos calling in bomb threats (or dummies
    wanting the rest of the day off).  How many people are in the
    Boston bldg; seemed like a large # employed there.
    
    Heard today that a lot of cities have started restricting parking
    around some federal buildings; would this be feasible for the
    long haul?
    
    

3 Middle Eastern men said to be held by immigration authorities

Reuters

OKLAHOMA CITY - Three Middle Eastern men are being being held by the
Immigration and Naturalisation Service after suspicions about their car
were raised by Oklahoma police, it was reported on Thursday.

All three, whose names were read by CNN, are being held on immigration
charges, but CNN said so far they have not been classified as suspects in
the bombing of an Oklahoma City government office building on Wednesday.

Two of the men were said to have been taken into custody in Dallas, and the
other in Oklahoma City, CNN said.

The network reported that the men asked directions from an Oklahoma highway
patrolman who noted the licence plate number and later discovered that the
plate did not belong on the car but on a blue Cavalier vehicle rented from
Dallas-Fort Worth Airport. That car was found at a nearby motel.

    
    
    Two million dollars is being offered for the reward for two suspects
    involved in the bombing in Oklahoma City.
    
    
    I can really use those two million dollars right now. I hope I'm the one
    to spot those "two white males".
                          

    Did anyone indicate how the authorities are so sure the axel
    that they used to trace the vehicle back to the car rental place
    is the axel of the vehicle that contained the bomb?
    
    Would the axel have some residual chemicals on it more so than a
    van that might have been unfortunate enough to be right next to
    the van containing the bomb when it blew?
    
    

 axle

re: .-1

Good question. This is why I begin to worry about the "nab a suspect - any
suspect" mentality/atmosphere that brews after one of these incidents.

 I hope Oklahoma doesn't televise their court proceedings (whenever they
 catch the perps).





 Jim

    
    
    .....televise the execution!
    
    Dave
    

    
    A couple of notes have discussed various levels of response depending
    on the who and where support of the bombers came from. 
    
    I have long held the opinion that our response to such attacks needs to
    be totally out of proportion to the the severity of the original
    attack. You blow up a building, we blow up one of your cities; you blow
    up a city bye-bye your country. The response has got to be so expensive
    that it discourages further attacks. An even exchange with a handful of
    suicidal bombers just encourages further attacks. Responses which
    threaten the extinction of the cause they support gets attention. Yes,
    it would be distasteful to have to kill civilians but better theirs than 
    more of ours.
    
    If the terrorists prove to be from the mid-east it shouldn't be too hard to
    pin down their country of origin. IMHO we shouldn't execute them but should
    provide free transportation back to their native land Slim Pickins style 
    (for those of you who remember the end of the movie Dr. Strangelove).
    
    Before everyone climbs on my back, not to worry, if we get the bombers
    Bill is more likely to wet his pants than carry out any serious 
    retaliation. Our courts will take forever to try them and if convicted
    they will probably die of old age in better living conditions than many
    Americans enjoy.  
    
    Re: .7 Like someone else has said I don't know where you are located
    but you obviously don't understand Americans. Generally, we are a
    peaceable bunch and argue a lot about different issues amongst
    ourselves. But don't make the mistake of how we may react when one of
    us gets stepped on. Japanese Admiral Yamamoto, when he discovered that the
    American carriers were not sunk at Pearl Harbor, was reputed to have
    said, "That he feared that all they had accomplished was to awake a
    sleeping giant." If the terrorists think that they can keep this up
    with virtual impunity they better start worrying about who our next
    Commander-In-Chief will be.
    
    
    JLB

    > The Isrealis don't have the resources to... we do.
    
    Bullchit.  The US had to go out of our way to keep the isrealies
    off Iraq during the gulf war.  
    
    The jews will go anywhere in the world to get their people out from
    harms way, (remember entebbe?)   I admire them for that (but I hate
    the fact WE fund them).  I think isreal shows a lot of restraint in
    trying to get along with its neighbors, but it won't hesitate to kick
    ass when necessary.
    
    We've got 2 Americans sitting in Iraq right now.  Our leadership sucks
    terribly.
    
    President MadMike wouldn't nuke anyone.  I wouldn't even jump up and
    down very much.
    
    I'd make sure baghdad knew I have 3 carrier battlegroups parked off
    shore.  I'd have the rubber bands wound up on everything I had in the
    area.  I'd TELL Mr. Sadumb, that, "At 5PM on of my helicopters is
    going to be landing at the gate of your prison and my people will be
    allowed to get into the helicopter.  Any threat, real or percieved by
    my forces in the area..."  Have a nice day.
    
    And I'd tell the UN to <r.o.> off as well.

    .97
    
    Uhhhh....sorry(tm)
    

	There is more info on the man the British detained at Heathrow
	and deported back to the U.S.

	He had been questioned in Chicago, which had caused him to miss
	his flight to Rome with a connection to Amman.

	His bags went without him.  He rerouted himself through London.

	In Rome, his bags were searched by authorities.  Bomb making
	material was found in his bags.

	/john

re .96

>    Would the axel have some residual chemicals on it more so than a
>    van that might have been unfortunate enough to be right next to
>    the van containing the bomb when it blew?

I believe so.  Something else to consider:  The axle of the vehicle with
the explosives would get a sudden force pretty much straight _down_, the axle
of a neighboring vehicle would get mostly a sideways force.  Just analyze how
it's bent.

    Re: .106
    
    >Why don't we tell Israel and her opponents to stop killing and love 
    >each other?  It is easy to do it
    
    It's easy to say.  It's obviously not easy for them to do.  It's
    obviously easier for them to kill each other than love each other,
    because if it were easier, they'd do it.

re .106:

>    Because US is perceived on the other side of Israel.  The bombing
>    is a strong message how they hate US.   And no one in the notes
>    string understand that.  Why don't we tell Israel and her opponents to
>    stop killing and love each other?  It is easy to do it,  just reduce
>    the aid to Israel and Egypt.   I understand Israel is doing what they can
>    to promote peace now.   But it is not enough.

(Assuming it was Arab terrorists that planted the bomb) By doing this we
gives the terrorists what they want.  This will encourage them to terrorize
us to give in on other demands.  On the other hand if we say "For each of
our buildings bombed that we determine was done by Islamic fundamentalists,
Israel gets an extra billion in aid", _that_ will discourage them...
(Of course then maybe Israel will start launching terror against us, making
it look like the Arabs did it... :-) )

    .106
    
    >	You are right, the killing countinues and eventually it comes 
    >to US.  Becuase your tax dollars to Israel are promoting killing.
    >Because US is perceived on the other side of Israel.  The bombing
    >is a strong message how they hate US.   And no one in the notes
    >string understand that.
    
    Er...I think people understand this.

 Is it really necessary for local (Boston) TV stations to have reporters on the
 scene. I'm not questioning the seriousness of the situation, but what can they
 tell us that Connie Chung, et al can't?



 Jim

    
    If anyone remains curious, the PEI bombing was a small pipe bomb.
    One person was injured.  Totally unrelated to this event.
    
    Prolly just some bored kids tryin' out some stuff they learned from a 
    book they ordered outta the back of `Soldier Of Fortune'.
    

re: .110, Jim

They speak the language, Jim. They can discuss matters relative to
the cahs in the pahking garage.

 That must be it.



 Jim

    i can't believe i read .57
    
    peace, brother
    
    ric

    RU, making a statement like us pulling support/aid from Isreal
    would stop (or minimize the risk) of this kind of act is so far from
    from the truth it isn't funny.
    
    JLB is right on. Barnicle did a powerful and moving editorial last
    night on Chronicle. This country is more concerned that it might offend
    someone than protect its own citizens. The U.S. average citizen's life
    has been worth squat to last few administrations starting with Johnson
    and Nixon in SEA, Carter and Iran, Reagan in Beirut, etc...
    
    It's a low risk to kill americans and there lies the problem. Like
    Barnicle said, find these people and kill them. Find the people
    that helped and kill them. If a country supported/funded these 
    people, launch a severe military response and kill a bunch of them 
    
    This crap has stop, and like right now. 
    
    One disgusted and fed up American!
    
    Chip 

    I didn`t like the way the UK papers were,in a sense,gloating over what
    happened and President Clinton`s reaction to it. (This happening after
    he shook hands with Gerry Adams,and plenty of "now you know what it
    feels like to be the victim of a terrorist organisation" type of comments).
     
    Whilst they have a point,I think it`s still bad taste.
    
    

    re: 393.104
            
    >In Rome, his bags were searched by authorities.  Bomb making
    >material was found in his bags.
     
    any more on this?  haven't heard confirmation.
    
    re: 393.106
    
    >Because US is perceived on the other side of Israel.  The bombing
    >is a strong message how they hate US.   And no one in the notes
    >string understand that.  
     
    this ain't Sesame Street.
    
    thinking you are the only one that understands something is probably
    how MacNamara felt int he 60's.
   
     
    

    
    
    RE: .106  Ru-I guess you don't know very much about Isreal and their
    situation.  If they didn't have nukes, they wouldn't be in existence 
    right now.  There's nothing that many of the countries in the area 
    wouldn't like better than to see Isreal destroyed.  Your simplistic
    view of things sounds just peachy, but it is not realistic.
    
    
    Mike

    
    -1, meant to include from 393.106 
    
    >  Why don't we tell Israel and her opponents to
    >  stop killing and love each other?  
    
    Ain't Sesame street.
    
    must need coffee.  
    
    al

    Re. 115
    
    
    I agree.  I'm all for Civil Rights but what about my rights as
    a law abiding taxpayer.  
    
    
    We need to take a lesson from the Russians.  Back when 
    Iran was taking American hostages, the Iranians also 
    kidnaped a Russian.  The KGB found out which group was
    holding their citizen, found the head of the family - the
    grandfather - of the leader and kidnaped him.  I wont describe
    what the KGB did to him it was too gross to take first thing in
    the morning, but it was a kind of mutilation that is
    understood in the Middle East.  After they returned the
    grandfathers body to his family, no Russians were taken again.
    
    I don't like what the Russians did, but they took care
    of their own people first and it worked.
                                   

    ZZ   i can't believe i read .57
    
    Yes...you are learning to read...congrats! :-)

    >Yes...you are learning to read...congrats! :-)
    
    yup, comprehension next 8^)
    
    and in .57's case that is very hard!
    
    ric

    
    
    
       It's soooo easy to get caught up in the "point your finger
       mentality". Oklahoma bombing suspects,....two White males,
       ....medium build,...etc,...
    
    
       Ed

    
    this "witness" that was flown back to the U.S. from Rome, is going to
    wind up being a suspect or maybe one of the group that did the actual
    bombing. I agree with -b in .57. We should have made Iraq a parking lot
    when we had the chance, then moved on to Iran and leveled its sorry ass
    as well. Then moved on to Libya and more of the same, after all this
    was accomplished, it would make for a more quieter world.

    .57, .125

	where do you people come up with this mindless stuff??

    
    Di, I don't know it just comes to me in my dreams, maybe I should
    knock off the Kool-Aid before bed.

    Well, carpet manufacturers could stand to make a healthy profit in all
    of this.

    The air force would leave rugged terrain in its wake.

    Wall to wall carpet bombing. I'm floored.

    So it`s not ok to murder innocent Americans but it is ok to murder
    innocent Iranians?
    
    er,um...
    
    That`s a bit like the IRA plant a bomb in Warrington shopping centre,
    so the British govt plant a bomb in a Londonderry shopping centre. 
    
    
    

    Tis true.  I work with an Iranian here and he is without doubt one of
    the nicest most congenial individuals I've met.  Keep in mind there are
    alot of babies and children in Iran, Iraq, and Libya...who are far
    removed from politics.
    
    -Jack

    
    
    re: .129
    
    Can you say "surgical strike"??
    
     I knew you could!!!
    
    
     The parking lot and carpet bombing is an emotional reaction to what
    happened...
    
      The appropriate retaliation, ie. Israeli type, is not...
    

    
    The `Israeli Response'...
    
    ...has anyone stopped to question just how well the `Israeli Response'
    has worked for the Israelis?
    
    Seems to me the terrorism is continuing there on a weekly basis.
    

    
    re: .132
    
    You may be right, but as I stated earlier... it's usually on the
    frontier, usually very minor (relatively speaking) and most of the time
    involves the military...
    
     I know... no consolation to the dead soldiers or their families, but
    they do have a handle on it...
    

    i would agree that Bush should have finished the job. we'll live with
    that legacy as long as the current criminals remain in power.
    
    Re; Isreal's success... understand that they play a somewhat less
    restrained game than we do, but their responses are "controlled"
    responses. if they ever get pushed into a corner get the hell outa
    the way. it's called politics, man, politics.
    
    Re; innocent civies... the enemy is the enemy. the scum that were
    involved with the bombing were babies once... ugly statement? yup,
    but i'm sticking to it in this case...
    
    Chip

    
    Well...I keep hoping that those smarter than myself can come up with
    a more creative solution than just `tit-for-tat' military action.
    
    Ultimately, groups like the PLO, the IRA, and the Khmer Rouge end up
    being forces to negotiate with rather than combat.  We may not like it,
    (I certainly don't) but how many people have to die before we finally 
    get to that point?
    
    jc
    

ZZ    i would agree that Bush should have finished the job. we'll live
ZZ    with that legacy as long as the current criminals remain in power.
    
    It would certainly have cost more lives...it would have gone against
    the UN...which to me is meaningless but not to the average sheepish
    fickle American.
    
    Furthermore, Iraq would probably be Shiite right now.
    
    -Jack    
    

    Commentator on NPR was talking about the new generation of terrorists-
    he called them "super-terrorists". These are people who've grown up
    in the middle of the violence in the Mideast,Northern Ireland, et al,
    who have taken the current techniques of terrorism to another level.
    There's a whole generation of very pissed off people out there with
    nothing to lose. Consequently, it's going to get a lot uglier.
    Oklahoma was just the beginning.
    				Al Legory 

    
    
    
      re .137
    
    
      The Oklamoma suspects appear to be "Americans",....wonder what
      pissed them off.?
    
    
      Ed

    .57,.125 etc
    
    so which bit of the US are you going to flatten if it turned out the
    bombers were US citizens?
    
    ric

    
    
    Does anyone have extensive info on the bombing in P.E.I.
    that they could send me?  It would be most appreciated.
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    Terrie
    NETCAD::WOODFORD
    

    re: .139
    
    How about we start with DC.  8^)

    
    re 140
    On the news out here in L.A they said it may have been a pipe bomb
    placed under a porch. Blew out some windows. Contrary to earlier
    reports, nobody killed. One person injured.
    
    

 Wonder if the 2 who rented the truck may have become one with the ground
 on which the explosion took place.





Jim

    
    
    2 factors have to be taken into account:
    prevention and retribution.
    
    The OKC bombing underlines the fact that the US intelligence
    is caught with their pants down, IMO. This is a terrorist doing
    (domestic or foreign is immaterial) which COULD be prevented if
    the FBI, NSA and CIA actually do their job. Come on, they do have
    international resources to work with (intepol, scotland yard, mossad,
     et al) as well as domestic evesdropping and whatever else.
    I am not saying that strikes like this can be prevented ALL the time,
    but quality intelligence is a crucial weapon to counter guerrilla
    tactics.
    
    Did you know that it is ILLEGAL to deny entrance to the US to a person
    who is associated with a group known to be "terrorist-inclined" (I
    learned this from a Congressman interviewed on NPR yesterday), unless
    there is proof that this person has actually been active in a terrorist
    activity?!  Give me a break, what's the point then?? I do understand
    that we do not favor a blanket "discrimination" based on guilt-by-
    association, but then again, if someone is obviously on that high-
    risk list, why not detain for further investigation?
    
    I also believe that terrorists caught (line the NY case) should be
    tried differently than a civilian case; terrorists bombing is not
    the same like the OJ murder case (sorry - ran out of examples!) or
    bank robbery trial! This is a clear case to exercise capital punishment.
    
    Remember words like TREASON?
    
    
    
    
    

    
    .139
    
    well New York city comes to mind, as does parts of L.A. and Chicago.
    HTH

    
    
        It sounds like it dosen't take a ton of expertise to make
        this so called "fertilizer bomb" and the chemicals are 
        readily available.
    
        The culprits that did this might not be affiliated with anyone,
        ....just pissed off,...or insane with access to bomb material.
    
        Ed

I have heard calls on the various TV shows and in here(the box in general) to
use different trial techniques for terrorists just try 'em and kill 'em.

I have one question; In the rush to find a perp, any perp, how do you get the 
right one? If our justice system is broken(Which it is IMHO) and trials are 
too slow and punishments do not fit the crime and appeals take far too long
Isn't it better to fix the system than set up a seperate "fast-track" that 
will in all likelyhood punish the wrong people in a significant percentage of 
cases? What do you say after you executed the first ten mid-east types
who were in OK-city then discover it was really Martians who commited the
crime?

I am in favor of the death penalty for these people.
I am in favbor of retribution against their overseas base(if they are foriegor 
directed by foreign powers)
I am against mistakenly executing those who "look" suspicious.

Amos

    
    
        re .146
    
    
        What about where you live?
    
    
        Ed

    
    well Ed, considering I live in Chicago, my neighborhood could be up
    for consideration.

    >so which bit of the US are you going to flatten if it turned out the
    >bombers were US citizens?

    Smug. I have no use or time for smug. So I'm not going to bother
    answering your question. If you want to engage in debate, I'm
    perfectly willing, but not while you have your arse glued
    to a high horse...
    
    -b

    
    Heard on the radio at lunch that an arrest is expected soon.  
    People "close to the investigation" indicate the names and
    location of the two suspects is known.   Not much else about them.
     
    Also, the guy brought back from Europe has been relesed.  He's not
    a suspect.
    

    
    
    Thank you, Mr. Topaz, and others for the info on PEI.
    
    
    Terrie
    

> you have your arse glued to a high horse...
    
you mean instead of having it glued up your arse?

Chris.

	.151  what a cop-out.

    
    
    >>  Also, the guy brought back from Europe has been released.
    >>  He's not a suspect.
    
    
    Thank goodness! I've heard that there have been death threats leveed
    against some families of Middle-Eastern descent in Detroit and Chicago.
    Can anyone confirm this? The reason why I'm asked, I've been mistaken
    for being someone from the Middle-East in the past.

    RE: .155
    
    I will defend my position. I can't be bothered defending myself.
    Better things to do. I hope you can see the difference...
    

    two points:
    
    It's utterly amazing that anyone could be identified so early after
    such an event.  If they are indeed the people who did it, I am
    thoroughly impressed by the cops down there!  The fact that someone all
    the way across the pond can be tracked down (among the tens of
    thousands of people who travel every day) related to an event in
    Oklahoma speaks wonders about modern society today, especially about
    technology!
    
    Second, I hope the people in charge/with power make the right decision
    and don't frame someone in the name of justice.  Every so often we hear
    about a N.American tourist robbed/killed/etc. in one of those idyllic
    caribbean/Mexican tourist resorts, and most of the time, some poor slob
    is identified, tried, and charged.  Given that the small islands depend
    so heavily on tourism, it is in their interest to see that justice is
    seen to be done.  Similarly, the kennedy assassination (sp?) comes
    to mind as an event where corners were cut (potentially) in the name of
    higher purposes.
    
    Doug

    
>>    I will defend my position. I can't be bothered defending myself.

	The question put to you would seem to pertain to your position.
	Are you willing to employ the same radical tactics domestically as
	you propose to employ abroad?  What's the matter with that question?

>    I will defend my position. I can't be bothered defending myself.
>    Better things to do. I hope you can see the difference...
    
your position is that you've suggested flattening whatever country
the terrorists come from, without any regard for whether the individuals
you've proposed frying have any connection with the terrorists.  This
big talk doesn't look so clever when the terrorists might come from
your own country.

Once they find the culprits, they should make them pay dearly, but
make sure you've got the right people first otherwise it'll only make
things far worse.

Chris.

    
    according to latest radio news FBI is close to making the arrests 
    of two suspects, hopefully by the end of the day today. they now
    know who they are.
    
    all speculation points to bombing being the work of a white
    supremacict group.

    
    That's it...carpet bomb Mississippi!
    

    With Dupont Stainmaster area rugs!

    That's actually a relief of sorts. I think we have a better chance of
    impressing upon americans the importance of not committing terrorist
    actions than we do people from cultures who view terrorism as a way of
    life.
    
     None of which mitigates this horrible atrocity, nor reduces my wish
    for vengeance. Savages must die.

    
    Wall-to-wall retribution!
    

 According to what I saw last night, the initial tip came from the camera
 in an ATM across the street (or near by) from the Fed Bldg.  The camera
 had snapped a photo before the bombing and included in the photo was a
 truck parked in front of the bank.  They enhanced the photo and determined
 that it was a Ryder truck.  They also found the axel (mentioned earlier) 
 a couple blocks away which had the VIN of the truck which they traced to
 Junction City, Kansas.



 Jim

    
    "White supremacists", eh?  Shall we now see calls for surgical strikes
    on KKK offices?
    

    -1 nope... just hunt 'em down and kill 'em like the filth they are.
    
       (whether they're guilty of this or not)
    
       Chip

    
    Soooo...Chip...any big plans for the weekend?   :^)
    

    -1 Sssshhhhhhhh.... :-)
    
       Chip

        Just in (CNN=> Wolf Blitzer):  One of the two suspects is in OK
        police custody

 Woof woof

    
    Wanna bet he "resisted arrest"?
    

    
    yep, an arrest in Perry, Oak. Reno is supposed to cover this
    in a news conference later. No details, just an arrest.
    
    

    
    
    
    The scary part is that the news mentioned militias in their talking
    about this a few minutes ago.  Now the gov't is going to have "cause"
    to go after militias.  
    
    
    Mike

    
    workers at the site, only go in to the building for a period of
    two hours. They are then pulled out, and sent to "grief" 
    counselors.
    
    somebody at the site stated that is how is is working now, since
    there is so much horror within the wrecked building.
    
    Dave
    

    Heard on the news that the FBI is raiding a location in Decker (sp),
    Michigan.  From what the radio says, the bombing is white
    supremacist/Waco related.
    
    Dan

    
    What do white supermists have to do with what happened in Waco? Were
    the Davidians considered white supremists?
    
    

    The terrorists that did this should be thrown in a pit with a bomb and
    have someone set it off and let them get bombed to bits, they will get
    what they deserve the sickos.
    
    I remember two summers ago I went to New York City, went to the top of
    the World Trade Center and spent the whole Saturday touring Ellis
    Island and the Statue of Liberty which you take ferries out from
    Battery park.  Approximately one week from my visit there was a bomb
    threat and both islands of Ellis and Liberty had to be totally
    evacuated. Now that hit home.

    
    Don't hold back, Lynne.  Tell us how you *really* feel.
    

	I don't know - maybe it's just me, but I'm often somewhat terrorized
	by the sentiments expressed in this conference.  

	Amazed too.

    re .180 - I am not real sure of the WS/Waco connection, but the radio
    has inferred that the WS group was anti-Gov't (ATF?), and that the
    anniversary of the raid and the location (ATF out of OKC was involved)
    were Davidian incident related ("Remember the Davidian dead" type of
    bombing?)
    
    Dan
    
    
    
    

    
    
    re .148 - Amos
    Certainly I do not advocate letting go or skipping any DUE PROCESS.
    Any perps, once facts are established, should be put on trial. I was
    pointing out that trying a terrorist case ought not be lumped in
    'ordinary' civilian criminal trials; this is NOT equal to railroading
    a just and fair due process.
    
    re .175 - mr oppelt
    Nope, gathering and utilizing intelligence properly (I know that's
    another rathole topic, right?) does NOT mean a dossier is kept on
    everybody - let's not be paranoid about this!
    
    To not utilize a tool/resource such as intelligence however is rather
    foolish, don't you think? So are you afraid that the FBI over time
    becomes a Gestapo/SS organization? Even when Hoover was around, with
    his warped snooping around, that scenario did not happen. Intelligence
    is not summarily evil. This society will not let that happen.
    
    

    I was wondering about the whodunnit part when I was watching Connie
    chomping at the bit looking for the faintest glimmer of a mid-east
    connection so she could scoop the rest of the world in the finger
    pointing game.  I was not convinced and found myself somewhat appalled
    at the immediate, thinly veiled threats towards mid-eastern factions.  
    I find myself leaning to unrelenting persectuion and an equally 
    unmerciless dispatch of the guilty parties along with proven conspirators.  
    I hope we don't screw this up in our zeal to make the wheels of justice
    turn too swiftly.  
    
    Brian

    
    >...Connie chomping at the bit looking for the faintest glimmer of a 
    >mid-east connection...
    
    I dare say Connie wasn't the only one...
    

    No, she wasn't but she was certainly looking for someone to slip up and
    confirm, prematurely, that the connection was there.  I must admit, it
    was an obvious first guess and who knows, there may be a lot more to
    come out on this before we actually get the whole story, if we ever get
    the whole story.  
    
    Brian

    
    re: .183
    
    >I don't know - maybe it's just me, but I'm often somewhat terrorized
    >by the sentiments expressed in this conference.
    
    >Amazed too.
    
    
      Nature of the beast....
    

    
    Same scenario as described in 359.0.  The media can spout whatever they
    want in these situations and not have to be accountable for it.
    
    For that matter...look at how much time was spent in THIS topic
    discussing trans-atlantic retribution.
    
    jc
    

    
>>      Nature of the beast....

    So the sentiments aren't real - they're just manufactured
    for the forum?  Hyperbole runs rampant in here at times, but
    I don't think that explains it all.

    
    

    We have at least one arrest in this case now (and the names of the
    three men who are suspected of the bombing.)  They went by too
    quick for me to catch, but two of the men are brothers with the
    last name of Nichols.
    
    They are Americans and the bombing was anti-Federal government
    (particularly anti-BATF for the handling of Waco), apparently.
    
    A statement from the Justice department is coming within minutes.

    
    re: .191
    
    Di...
    
    perhaps I should have added "emotional" nature of the beast...
    

    Timothy McVay, age 27, was arrested on a traffic violation outside
    OK city a number of hours after the bombing.  (He's the one with the
    light brown hair in the police drawings.)
    
    The other guy (from the drawings) has not been named, but is still
    being sought.

    
    Thanks Suzanne ... please keep the updates coming!
    

    Re: VIN on axle?
    
    Actually I think they've been doing that for years now.

    
    >...the bombing was anti-Federal government
    >(particularly anti-BATF for the handling of Waco), apparently.
    
    ...the irony being that the federal government usually uses this sort of
    thing to increase their powers.
    

    Janet Reno is not speculating about the motive (the other CNN portion
    that discussed this was operating under the banner heading 'Bomb
    suspect arrested' and they spoke of anti-Federal government and
    anti-BATF for the handling of Waco motives, but I didn't hear the
    first part of that report so I can't confirm where they got this
    from.)
                
    Also, the arrested man's name is Timothy McVeigh (spelling
    correction).

From Nando Times:-
----------------------------------
Earlier in the day, the Justice Department announced that the FBI had released a
Palestinian-American detained in London and returned to the United States on
Thursday. The man had left Oklahoma City shortly after the bombing, and flew
from Chicago to London.

"We let him go," Justice Department spokesman John Russell said. "He's free to
go wherever he wants and I understand he's going back to Oklahoma City."

In Dallas, brothers Anis Siddiqy, 24, and Asad R. Siddiqy, 27, and a third man,
Mohammed Chafi, were all released after being questioned about the case on
Wednesday.

There had been reports that the three were suspects, and CNN had reported,
apparently erroneously, that they had been arrested.

"They questioned me for like 16 hours and let me out at 9 o'clock this morning,"
Anis Siddiqy said Thursday night during an intervie in Chafi's North Dallas
apartment. "They took everything in this apartment." He denied any involvement
in the bombing.
--------------------------------

    Many parts are serialized especially parts of the drive train and then
    tied back to the VIN.  Getting a fake license, and credit card would
    not be too difficult given some time and persistence.  I think you can
    even rent a vehicle for cash under some circumstances.  
    
    If this is truly an anti-gov't act, I wonder how the feds will react
    short and long term.  This should be quite interesting.  I am more
    afraid of internal agitation than I am of outside involvement.  
    
    Brian

    The arrested suspect has been in custody since Wednesday morning
    (when he was arrested for the traffic violation) - the Justice
    Department spokesman (appearing with Janet Reno) did indicate that
    they received the drawing *before* they connected the arrested man
    as being involved in the bombing.

    
    
     Would any of you folks care to take a stab at how long it'll take the
    "activists" to come out of the woodwork and condemn the preliminary
    finger-pointing at certain "ethnic" groups?
    
      

    
    
    if middle east countries don't want to get blamed for terrorist acts.
    then those countries should put a stop to terrorism.
    
    maybe it will work that way, but in this world, who knows.
    
    

    Well, I for one am relieved that it wasn't an Islamic group responsible
    as it would have created an atmosphere of hatred towards all middle
    eastern peoples. Now everyone can hate the race haters. Fine by me.

    
    
    Clinton's using this as an opportunity, as is Reno, to blow up the
    Justice Dept, the FBI, the BATF and all the federal authorities.  
    THis is just too frickin bizzare.
    
    
    Mike

    
    
    RE: .205  I think you're mistaken Glenn.  The New York bombing didn't
    have this effect.  I don't think this one would have either.
    
    
    Mike

    
    cnn reporting the suspects are members of a group called the "michigan
    militia."  they are showing pictures of the fbi raiding a two-story
    white house located in decker, mi., but no commentary on who or what
    they are looking for, although one can assume it is the nichols'.
    
    
    bill

    Oh yes it would have.
    
    6 deaths in New York? Big deal right? That's a good day in New York
    right?
    
    Oklahoma City? 100 deaths and toll rising, 18 children? Very different.

    People started talking about leveling countries in this very forum.

    
    
    Raids are going on throughout the country according to Clinton.  And
    there was talk of raids a few weeks ago wasn't there?  Hmmm, guess they
    found their excuse.
    
    
    Mike

    re: .206
    
    Indeed... this whole apparent resolution takes on the appearance
    of being incredibly, er, convenient for the powers-that-be.
    
    Chris

    
    
    And before anyone says they wouldn't do anything like that, remember
    what happened in Waco in the name of saving the kids.  How many kids
    died there?
    
    
    Mike

    re: .211
    
    
    
    Careful... you might be labeled as one of those paranoid loonies...
    
    You know the ones who wouldn't put anything past the goverment?

      Of course, I believe the event was heinous, BUT
    
      I can't stand what the BATF and DEA have sometimes been
      doing lately.  We know Weaver and Waco and Jim Sadin
      posted a recent newspaper article that depicted BATF  
      and DEA doing some heinous things as well.  Like going
      into homes of innocent people and (sometimes) killing
      them.
    
      VERY convenient.  Maybe convenient enough to remove some
      more of our rights.  For our good of course.   :-(
           

    
    
    
    
    NPR is now interviewing the Nichol's neighbors. One neighbor said that
    he saw them making bombs. He said that they told him that they did not
    need any drivers license to drive their car. He said that they did not
    pay no income taxes neither. The neighbor said that he thought that it
    was a big game or joke what the Nichol's was doing.

      Thats right, the govt. has killed children too.
    
      Wow.

    RE: .205
    
     >Well, I for one am relieved that it wasn't an Islamic group responsible
     >as it would have created an atmosphere of hatred towards all middle
     >eastern peoples. Now everyone can hate the race haters. Fine by me.
    
    Food for thought: Ask any of the parents of the blown-up children if
    they feel relieved that it was Americans that killed their kids.
    
                                                     Bob H.

Let me get this straight:-

When you thought there was a middle-eastern connection you wanted US Governement
to "blow up" the middle east.

But now you find that the attack had nothing to do with a foreign hand, you
fear that your own government will have an "excuse" to go after the organization
who conducted the worst act of terrorism in its history?

- Vikas

    
    re: .218
    
    Not quite right....
    
    The "excuse" would be going after what the government considers
    "fringe groups"... no matter what they've done (or haven't done)...
    
     That's the scary part...
    

    
    .219, Andy:
    
    You see quite clearly how that applies inside your borders...
    
    Can you not see that the same might apply to `surgical strikes'
    outside your borders?
    

    
    
    I too am very relieved this is NOT a Muslim thing k'now, being one
    myself!
    
    Okay, now if proven that these are the perps, do you (those who
    were upset about different trial tracks erlier) maintain that they
    go thru the same civilian trial processes - if we think the OJ thing
    is bad enough, can you imagine the legal and media circus this can
    cause? 
    
    What's the excuse now - temporary insanity?
    

    I suspect there will be more arrests before this is all over and 
    done with. Who knows maybe Mid-Eastern connection will be established 
    somewhere along the line. If you want to read on groups such as the
    Michigan Militia, just pick up a copy of Soldier of Fortune or any
    other of the paramilitary mags out there. 
    
    This will be so ironic if in fact the killers turn out to be American
    with connections to...?????? 

                       <<< Note 393.215 by ICS::EWING >>>
                                   -< ????? >-

>   NPR is now interviewing the Nichol's neighbors. One neighbor said that
>   he saw them making bombs. He said that they told him that they did not
>   need any drivers license to drive their car. He said that they did not
>   pay no income taxes neither. The neighbor said that he thought that it
>   was a big game or joke what the Nichol's was doing.

The neighbors saw all this and didn't report it to the authorities?
Sounds like Reichsfuhrer Reno should inform these peasants about the 
Violent Crime Control Act of 1993.  

Isn't it a federal crime not to turn in your neighbors for such known 
terrorist activity?

    Guarenteed the administration will use this in the firearms control
    issue!
    
    

    
    re: .220
    
    Not quite the same....
    
    If you look back, my `surgical strikes' were against the responsible
    parties... whether groups or nations.... 
    
     If the government sticks to "responsible parties" here in the states,
    I'll have no problem with that...
    
     What I have a problem with is the impication that anything with the
    word "militia" is going to be fair game...
    

    Why should the parents of victims prefer a middle eastern connection.
    If they would prefer one, does this not raise a horrible specter?

    
    RE. 215
    
    As I listened to the radio while the Nichol's neighbor spoke, he was
    laughing the whole time (weird).

    
    
    -221
    
    no they will be convicted.
    
    But It will be the year 2005 or 2010 before they are executed.
    
    .....sounds like  a long time huh? it is.....
    
    Dave
    

     re -223? O'kelley
    
    	why should they? We've been crying all along that this is
    	a FREE country right? Any nut doing any nutty thing is
    	perfectly alright, after all we cannot be that intolerant
    	and snoopy, right?
    
    	Maybe the JD ought to publish a list of "terrorist activities":
        making a bomb, buying/storing a combination of chemical x,y,z,
    	etc???
    
    	

    
    Note 393.225, Andy:
    
    >If you look back, my `surgical strikes' were against the responsible
    >parties... whether groups or nations...
    
    "responsible parties" are those that can be reasonably demostrated
    (say, in a court of law) to have built and delivered the weapon.
    Air-to-surface ordinance, no matter how surgical, cannot hope to
    attain that level of precision.  It's a seductive option, but that
    doesn't make it right, and historically speaking, it doesn't generally
    make it a solution.
    
    >If the government sticks to "responsible parties" here in the states,
    >I'll have no problem with that...
    
    Fair enough.
    
    >What I have a problem with is the impication that anything with the
    >word "militia" is going to be fair game...
    
    What *I* have a problem with is the implication that any foreign group
    or nation that can be linked to such an incident is fair game for an air
    strike, regardless of how many or how few innocents might get caught in 
    the middle.  This was the BIG problem I had with Clinton's retaliatory 
    strike for the George Bush assasination plot.
    
    The principle is the same, Andy.  How broad a net should be cast?  How
    many human rights will Clinton trample in the weeks ahead?  How many did
    he trample when ordered the above-mentioned strike?
    
    jc
    

    
    the head of the michigan militia says the three men named are not
    members, nor have they ever been.
    
    
    bill

    The Oklahoma bombing will have one effect: it will solidify
    national opinion with regard to terrorist attacks. And we
    all know that even if this was not a middle east-related
    attack that we have yet to avenge countless others (Lockerbie,
    etc.), not to mention the inevitable ones in our future,
    due to weakness in our national policies.

    We have a serious problem with the middle east, and I still
    prefer the Israeli solution. Namely, tit for tat. Hit back,
    and hit hard. Each terrorist attack brings a retaliation.

    One thing is certain, we cannot play by Europe's rules.
    Europe's rules suck. The effect Europe has had on our own
    policies sucks even worse. The Israeli assassination squads
    are the correct response to the individual terrorist groups.

    But there is still the issue of the client states. While the
    client states continue to finance terrorist organizations,
    we will continue to be victims of it. Puffy little smart
    bomb attacks are meaningless. They are useful for military
    purposes, but for bending the knee of your enemy you need
    some serious bomber power. You can feign all the indignity
    you want to, but the fact is that the only possible military
    solution is a heap big one.

    As for it turning out to be Americans:

    I feel the same way about this that I felt the day it happened.
    I am extremely saddened by this event; for the children, for
    their families, for civilians. This was not a good thing.
    The people involved should be punished severely; they should
    be executed.

    And yes, I would feel quite differently if these people had
    the 'nads to do a true military strike on the BATF in retaliation
    for Waco. Bombs are for cowards. If you're that pissed off,
    attack and confront your enemy. However, they chose to show
    the same level of cowardice and disregard for law that the
    BATF and DEA show... I weep not for the BATF or DEA, but
    I most definitely weep for the innocent victims.

    -b

    
    Note 393.233, Brian:
    
    >...the fact is that the only possible military
    >solution is a heap big one.
    
    Yes...as in:  Go over and completely occupy the offending nation...
    forever.  Otherwise, the tit-for-tat will go on forever, or until
    somebody finally breaks down and decides to try to solve the problem.
    
    jc
    

        Well said. Just too broad a brush when talking about Europe.
        
        The SAS  (I  worked  briefly with them in a previous existance)
        have the answers, unique  to  the UK.  Ever seen the TV footage
        of them taking out terrorists  in the embassy seige in London a
        few years ago? Only enough for questioning came out alive ...
        
        Andy
        

    
    john doe #2, terry lynn nichols, turned himself in to police
    in harrington, kansas.  must have been an excellent composite
    drawing, or at least he thought it was.  of course, it's possible
    he missed the president calling for the death penalty, but he'll
    find out soon enough.
    
    bill

About the first 7-8 posts on the OKC bombing in the Internet newsgroup
'alt.conspiracy' said, "The US government did this bombing so they could
get away with cracking down on the militias and blaming them."  Given
that the MO was so similar to the WTC bombing, does anyone think this
was a strange reaction even from the crew of paranoids in alt.conspiracy?

I guess i'm wondering if some of the people posting these assertions may
actually have been knowledgeable about what was going on and preparing
their excuses ahead of time.  Should the FBI be taking names from these
postings to investigate that possibility?  (Assuming that the FBI
monitors that newgroup anyway, since so many nuts post stuff there.)
The level of hostility toward the US government displayed there is very
reminiscent of what Hofstadter describes in "The Paranoid Style in
American Politics" from the McCarthy and peak Birch Society periods.

- paul

        Strangely reminiscent  of Clancy's "Red Storm Rising" - working
        from a home-grown  "terrorist  act", blame placed elsewhere for
        political /moral high ground.
        
        Andy
        

    The arrest of Timothy McVeigh is very reminiscent of John Grisham's
    book 'The Chamber' (where one of the bombers is detained for a
    traffic violation after a bombing,  but he is not suspected over
    the next few days - and he is almost released - until his story about 
    his slight injuries from the bomb blast is determined to be somewhat 
    fishy.)

    Also, every time Ted Bundy was taken into custody (for his first
    trial, the capture from his first escape from jail, and the capture
    after his second escape from jail - after he had murdered several
    young women and a 12 year old girl in Florida), it was for traffic
    violations - usually, he just drove really erratically.

    If he'd been a better driver, he might have gotten the chance to
    murder quite a few more people.  Kinda strange.

    
    Clearly Bundy and this guy had their minds on other things (evil things
    -worrisome, guilt ridden things) and didn't pay attention to their
    driving.
    
    That state trooper that pulled him over must be feeling good.
    
    Dave
            

    Considering how Timothy McVeigh was armed (and had just murdered
    probably over 100 people), I suspect the state trooper who pulled
    him over must be feeling kinda lucky to be alive.

    
    That first suspect is being transferred to OC for arraignment.
    
    I wonder how many police will be needed to guard him from 
    a most likely very outraged,and angry public.
    
    

    He looked pretty surrounded when going into the helicopter
    (in an orange suit, all covered with chains.)
    
    The helicopter just left.
    
    Update about his traffic arrest - his car did not have tags on
    it (and when he got out of the car, the state trooper saw he
    was armed.)
    
    After the OK cops saw the police drawing, they realized that
    this guy looked like one of the suspects and called the FBI.

    
    
    	I haven't read all of the last 100 replies so if this is
    	a repeat, I apologize.
    
    	X Nichols (don't remember the first name) has surrendered to
    	police.  So we now have the two suspects the feds and police
    	have been looking for.  Speculation is that they are from a 
    	white supremacist group but Clinton is asking us not to jump
    	to conclusions.  (yeah, right)  It's uncertain as to whether
    	other arrests will be made in connection with the bombing.
    
    	JJ
    

    It seems like the authorities are expressing doubts about the
    suspect Terry Lynn Nichols (who resembles the John Doe #2
    drawing, but may not be directly involved, per CNN.)
    
    Timothy McVeigh's name was on the truck rental, apparently.

    
    renting the truck in his own name and speeding away from the scene
    of the crime with no license plates?  can this doofus really be the
    brains behind this?  seems very unlikely.
    
    bill

Episcopal Church responds with aid following Oklahoma City bombing

     (ENS-April 21) From the first moments after an April 19 bomb blast
destroyed a federal office building in Oklahoma City, Episcopalians joined
the swelling ranks of volunteers who rushed to help.

     "Dozens of volunteers have flooded into the cathedral grounds, a half
dozen of them newly confirmed Holy Saturday night," wrote the Rev. George
Back, dean of the nearby St. Paul's Cathedral, as he recorded his
impressions of the first few hours following the explosion. The cathedral
was also severely damaged by the blast.

     Literally thousands of volunteers, many Episcopalians among them,
flocked to the blast site, to the nearby hospital and to relief centers to
offer aid, reported the Rev. Charles Woltz, diocesan canon to the ordinary.
"In this part of the country, people care for each other," he said. "The
expression of grace is just wonderful to see."

     The blast severely damaged both the Roman Catholic and Episcopal
cathedrals, as well as the Episcopal diocesan offices, reported Bishop
Robert M. Moody of the Diocese of Oklahoma. While no diocesan staff members
at the offices were injured, "several Episcopalians are known to be in the
rubble," he wrote.

     The numbers of Episcopalians killed or injured in the explosion is not
yet known, but the diocesan office is compiling lists of names, reported
Woltz.

     "Yesterday was a day of horror for this city," wrote Moody. "The
force of the bomb is impossible to describe. The damage that extends out
from the city is remarkable." He walked with Woltz to the bomb site within
the first 20 minutes of the explosion and reported that "the number of
people who had been injured was overwhelming and the damage was
indescribable."

Diocesan buildings damaged

     At the cathedral, "five of the six dormers have fallen, the bricks and
stones crushing the bushes and benches beneath them," wrote Back. "The St.
Francis window lies crumbled and twisted amidst the pews. Its companion
dangles among the organ trumpet pipes." In addition, he wrote, the
cathedral roof has shifted and "the heavy oak doors are 10 feet into the
cloister."

     At the diocesan offices, about a block further from the blast, windows
were broken, roof tiles dislodged, and at least one heavy metal door frame
twisted. "It was like the whole building was picked up, shaken and put back
down again," said Woltz.

     Despite the damage it sustained, the cathedral was called into service
the day of the blast as a support center for volunteers, with the magnitude
of the catastrophe prompting what seemed like super-human efforts, noted
Back.  "The city wants to feed 200 firefighters supper in Dean Willey
Hall," he wrote. "It is three o'clock. The hall is in shambles, the floor
is covered with shattered glass and ceiling tiles. By six o'clock the floor
is clean and 20 tables are set."

     The Rev. B. Wayne Kinyon, an Episcopal chaplain at St. Anthony's
Hospital where many of the injured were taken, was coordinating the
ecumenical efforts of the scores of clergy who came to the hospital to
help, reported Woltz. "I've never seen such an outpouring of offers to help
from volunteers," Woltz said. While he was at the hospital, he reported,
one woman approached him and said, "I'm a pastor's wife. How can I help?"

     Bishop Moody participated in an ecumenical prayer service the day
after the explosion, and churches throughout the city were planning special
services or vigils, Woltz said. The cathedral plans to hold its regular
services Sunday.

Relief funds established

     The President Bishop's Fund for World Relief sent an immediate
emergency grant of $25,000 to the Diocese of Oklahoma, reported Nancy
Marvel, the fund's interim director. In addition, the Episcopal Church is
represented through the ecumenical efforts of the Church World Service
(CWS). The Rev.  Peter Van Hook of the Diocese of Utah, an Episcopal
volunteer disaster resource consultant with the CWS, has joined efforts in
Oklahoma City to set up an immediate interfaith support program for
families of victims, she said.

     Donations for the bomb relief effort may be sent to:

     The Presiding Bishop's Fund for World Relief
     815 Second Avenue
     New York, NY 10017
     (checks should be made out to the Presiding Bishop's Fund for World
      Relief, and marked for bomb blast relief)

In addition, donations may be sent to:

     Victim Relief Fund
     924 North Robinson
     Oklahoma City, OK 73102
     (checks should be made out to The Diocese of Oklahoma, and marked
      "Bomb Blast")

     Cathedral Restoration Fund
     127 N.W. 7th Street
     Oklahoma City, OK 73102
     (checks should be made out to St. Paul's Cathedral)

    Latest news is that Nichols is NOT a suspect, but a witness...

    
    >That state trooper that pulled him over must be feeling good.
    
    Y'know, I think it's worth noting that cops tend to take a lot of
    heat for this routine traffic stuff, but I can't count the number
    of times I've heard about serious cases that were broken by this
    sort of routine police work.
    
    Just a thought...
    
    jc
    
            

    
    Oh, and I think that the second suspect turned himself in because he
    was quickly beginning to realize that the safest place to be was
    *in custody*!
    

Bomb suspect is held, another identified; two questioned


(c) Copyright the News & Observer Publishing Co.

New York Times

WASHINGTON (1:15 a.m.) -- Just 48 hours after the Oklahoma City
bombing, authorities Friday arrested a suspect whom a witness described in
court papers as enraged over the federal raid on the Branch Davidian
compound near Waco, Texas, two years to the day before the blast.

Investigators also said they had identified a second suspect in the bombing,
an Oklahoma man whose whereabouts are unknown and whose name they
did not disclose.

And they questioned two longtime associates of the arrested man, searching
a Michigan farm where the three once lived together for evidence of
explosives or ties to domestic right-wing groups hostile to the federal
government.

The breakthrough in the investigation of the worst terrorist attack ever on
U.S. soil came as law-enforcement officials in three states pieced together
fragmentary evidence and got a few lucky breaks. It prompted Attorney
General Janet Reno to conclude that the bombing was most likely the work
of an American group and not international terrorists.

Friday night the suspect under arrest, Timothy J. McVeigh, a 27-year-old
Army veteran, was brought before a federal magistrate at Tinker Air Force
Base in Oklahoma on charges of maliciously damaging federal property.
The government submitted an affidavit quoting witnesses who said they saw
a man matching his description at the scene only minutes before the
explosion.

In that affidavit, a former co-worker said McVeigh was "known to hold
extreme right-wing views" and had been "particularly agitated" about the
Waco raid, which led to a fire that killed some 80 members of the Branch
Davidian sect.

The co-worker, who was not identified in the affidavit, said McVeigh had
been so upset about those deaths that he had visited the charred site and later
expressed "extreme anger at the federal government" and said the
government "should never have done what it did."

McVeigh was captured in a web of circumstance worthy of a thriller. He
had been jailed in Perry, Okla., 60 miles north of Oklahoma City, since
being stopped on Interstate 35 there Wednesday, just 90 minutes after the
bombing, because the car he was driving had no license plates.

When he was pulled over, he was found to be carrying a 9-millimeter pistol
with "cop-killer"bullets and a knife in the car.

He was detained by county officials on misdemeanor charges of carrying a
concealed weapon. But they had no clue that he was being hunted by the FBI,
or matched the composite sketch of the crew-cut bombing suspect identified
a day later -- on Thursday -- only as "John Doe No. 1."

Then a routine check of his Social Security number matched one flagged by
the FBI as belonging to a suspect in the bombing. That led to an urgent call
demanding McVeigh's continued detention only 30 minutes before he was to
be released on bail Friday morning, and he was handed over to the FBI.

Wearing orange prison fatigues, his hands manacled to a leather strap around
his waist, McVeigh was taken under heavy guard from the Noble County
Jail in Perry on Friday as a crowd jeered and shouted, "Bastard!" He was
flown by military helicopter to Tinker Air Force Base for his initial hearing
pending formal arraignment.

McVeigh entered no plea at that hearing and then was taken to the El Reno
Federal Corrections Center, just west of Oklahoma City.

In addition, officials said that they now knew the identity of the man whose
sketch they had labeled as "John Doe No. 2" and that they believed he was
from Oklahoma but were unsure of his current whereabouts.

They said that they had all but eliminated as suspects the two additional men
being questioned but believed that the two had information about
McVeigh's activities.

One of the two, Terry Lynn Nichols, turned himself in this afternoon in
Herington, Kan., a small farm town 25 miles from Junction City, where the
truck suspected of holding the bomb was rented Monday.

The other is Nichols' brother James, an organic farmer in Decker, Mich.,
about 80 miles north of Detroit, whose house there was searched by federal
investigators Friday for evidence of explosive paraphernalia.

The affidavit released at McVeigh's hearing quoted an unidentified female
relative of James Nichols as saying that McVeigh had lived and worked on
the farm.

The relative also said she had heard that James Nichols had been involved in
building bombs about last November and "that he possessed large quantities
of fuel oil and fertilizer" -- the substances investigators believe were used
in the devastating blast.

Investigators believe that the Nichols brothers and McVeigh might have ties
to the Michigan Militia, a paramilitary group that opposes gun control and
believes that the federal government is conspiring to deprive citizens of
their rights.

But a spokesman for the Michigan Militia, which claims as many as 10,000
adherents, denied any knowledge of the Nicholses and said the group had no
connection to the Oklahoma City bombing.

There was other evidence that marked McVeigh as a sympathizer of the
Branch Davidians. The ill-fated raid on the sect's Waco compound occurred
two years to the day before the Oklahoma bombing, and investigators said
he had given 4-19-93 as the date of issuance of the forged driver's license
that was used to rent the truck linked to the bombing.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, which the Branch Davidians
and their sympathizers blamed for the Waco outcome, had offices in the
Oklahoma City building. But the bureau lost none of its employees in the
blast, officials said Friday, because its offices were on the side not damaged
by the bomb.

After 48 hours of fevered speculation that the attack was linked to
international terrorism, Attorney General Reno declared after McVeigh's
arrest Friday afternoon, "Every evidence indicates that it is domestic in
nature."

President Clinton announced that he would attend a memorial service for the
victims of the bombing in Oklahoma City on Sunday. In a news conference
at the White House, after McVeigh's arrest, the president vowed to "solve
this crime in its entirety," and said grimly of the bombers, "We will seek the
death penalty for them."

It was a day of fast-breaking developments in Oklahoma, Kansas, Michigan
and Washington, where Ms. Reno announced the first arrest even as CNN
was televising live pictures of investigators surrounding and searching
James Nichols's farm in Michigan.

Neighbors there said McVeigh, who grew up in Pendleton, N.Y., near
Buffalo, had served in the military with Terry Nichols and had seen action
in the Persian Gulf war.

The neighbors said McVeigh had spent time on the Nichols family farm and
was often seen with guns. Investigators said they had linked him to the
Nichols brothers through his personal effects.

Investigators said McVeigh had served for a while at Fort Riley, Kan., but
no other details of his service record were available. The truck that the
authorities say was used to carry the explosives was rented in Junction City,
Kan., adjacent to Fort Riley, on Monday by two men, one fitting McVeigh's
description

Information about McVeigh's background was extremely sketchy Friday
night, and officials variously gave his first name as Timothy and Thomas.
He grew up and went to high school in Pendleton, where schoolmates
recalled him as unremarkable.

"He's a quiet boy, he kept to himself, he didn't seem like he was a
troublemaker or anything like that," said Tanya Panepento, 26, a fellow
student at Star Point Central School in Lockport.

McVeigh checked into the Dreamland Motel, half a mile outside Junction
City, under his own name last Friday and gave his address as 3616 North
Van Dyke in Decker, Mich., the Nichols farm. He checked out Tuesday
morning.

Lea McGown, the owner of the motel, said he had arrived well dressed, in a
1977 Mercury with Arizona license plates, and had talked her down to $20 a
night for a $28 room.

She said he had later driven a Ryder truck to the motel, backed it far away
from his room, No. 25, and locked it. She thought that was unusual, and
because the truck was close to a dropoff in the parking lot, she made him
move it.

"He's a talker," Ms. McGown said. "He paid attention to his appearance. He
was a very neat person. The feeling was he just washed his pants and put
them on."

Terry Nichols and his wife had lived at his brother's farmhouse but moved
away about a year and a half ago, after his 2-year-old son, Jason, died on
Nov. 22, 1993. The local sheriff's department logged an ambulance call to
the farm because of a report of a child not breathing.

Neighbors said McVeigh himself had left the farm about six months later.

Asked Friday whether the background of the suspect meant that the
government would take a new and tougher look at militant or
white-supremacist groups, Clinton cautioned against drawing quick
conclusions.

"We need to finish this investigation, we need to finish the rescue," he said.
"We then need to obviously examine anew, as we will over the next few
days, the sufficiency of out efforts in the whole area of terrorism."

Clinton also said various federal agencies, including the FBI and the Public
Health Service, had recently been deployed somewhere in the nation to deal
with a "tip of a possible terrorist incident, which, thank goodness, did not
materialize."

White House officials later flatly refused to say anything about the location
or timing of the potential threat, and said Clinton had raised it only in an
effort to reassure the public that authorities were constantly vigilant in
monitoring, and countering, possible plots against the nation.

Clinton announced that he and his wife, Hillary, would go to Oklahoma City
on Sunday for a 3 p.m. memorial service for the victims, and he declared it a
national day or mourning. He is also scheduled to be interviewed live on "60
Minutes" from Oklahoma City that evening.

Both Clintons also plan to use the president's weekly radio address Saturday
morning to address the topic, and will be joined for the broadcast, from the
White House, by parents and children from the Washington area
representing the 13 federal agencies that had branch offices in the bombed
building.

"The children of America need to know that almost all the adults in this
country are good people who love their children and love other children, and
we're going to get through this," Clinton said. "I don't want our children to
believe something terrible about life, and the future, and grown-ups in
general because of this awful thing."



KOCO
Channel 5
Oklahoma City

OKLAHOMA CITY FOOD BANK

Here is a quick summary of what the Oklahoma City Food Bank is
doing relative to the current disaster: 

 1. We are serving as a drop-off point for donations of food or
   other items from individuals, companies, etc. We are
   located at 30 S.E. 17th Street, between Robinson and
   Central Avenue, just south of the river. We are open
   8am-5pm. Donors can call 236-834 9 with questions. 
 2. We are picking up donations that cannot be brought here or
   arranging for volunteers to make pick-ups. 
 3. We are picking up and transporting prepared foods in our
   refrigerated "Second Helpings" truck. This food is
   transported directly to Salvation Army for serving to
   disaster workers. 
 4. We are supplying Salvation Army with food, drinks, and
   supplies as needed and available for use in their mobile
   disaster kitchens (4 now set up and operational), and in their
   main kitchen and shelter area. Many disaster workers are
   taking food and sle ep breaks at the Salvation Army. 
 5. We are storing donated food and other products and
   supplying it as needed to the disaster area. We will also be
   supplying items to emergency food pantries and other
   agencies that we regularly work with. We expect an
   increased demand for food and suppl ies in the inner city
   area beyond the immediate situation, as displaced residents
   and those with damage to their property try to begin
   recovery. 

Some items we have immediate need for are: 

   Hot cups and cold cups 
   Heavy duty paper plates 
   Napkins 
   Garbage bags 
   Coffee 
   Sugar 
   Bread 
   Lunch meat & cheese 
   Fruit 
   Tylenol or aspirin 

We expect to have an ongoing need for other items that could be
collected or the truck placed at 1300 E. Britton Road. These would
include: 

   Canned meats, soups, fruits & vegetables 
   Peanut butter & jelly 
   Other nonperishable foods like macaroni & cheese, canned
   or powdered milk, and other packaged 
   foods 
   Paper products of all kinds 
   Toiletry items like bath soap, shampoo, aspirin, laundry
   soap 
   Baby items like diapers and formula 

Any help you can give will be appreciated. Feel free to call Sally
White at 236-8349. You may also call the Executive Director,
Rodney Bivens. 


RED CROSS INFORMATION

SHELTERS

   Outreach Center (36TH & Walker), Mass Care and Mental
   Health (Red Cross is facilitating) 
   Shelter - St. Luke's Methodist Church (14th & Harvey) 
      First Aid (minor injuries) 
      Mental Health (Helping any person through the
      trauma) 
      Approximately 100 people there now: 500 person
      capacity 

What People Can Do To Help

The most immediate way to help disaster victims is through
financial contributions. Call 1-800-HELP-NOW, or mail to your
local Red Cross, 601 NE 6th, Oklahoma City, OK 73104. 
The blood donation number is 297-5553 

Inquiries For Missing Persons

Call 232-7121 or 1-800-537-6374 or if in Oklahoma City go to
36th & Walker. As of 9:30 on April 20th, the Red Cross had taken
1150 calls concerning missing family. 


HELPFUL PHONE NUMBERS

DONATIONS

   Money (Red Cross), 1-800-435-7669 
   Blood (Oklahoma Blood Institute), 297-5553 
   Equipment, floodlights & generators (OKC Fire
   Department), 297-3439 
   Construction equipment (Assn. of Contractors), 528-4605 
   Relief to volunteer workers (Salvation Army), 270-7800 
   Donations of hot and cold cups, heavy paper cups, napkins,
   garbage bags, coffee, sugar, bread, lunch meat, cheese, fruit,
   sealed Tylenol or aspirin, canned meats, soups, fruits &
   vegetables, peanut butter, jelly, and other non-perishables
   can be donated at KOCO studios, 1300 East Britton Road
   8am-6pm 

MEDICAL VOLUNTEERS, contact the Red Cross at
1-800-435-7669

AMERICAN RED CROSS, 232-7121

SHELTERS

   Outreach Center, 36th & Walker 
   St. Luke's Methodist Church, 14th & Harvey, 232-1371 

COUNSELING

   Contact (24 hour), 271-5050 
   Crisis Intervention Center, 848-2273 
   Hillcrest Health Center, 680-2000 
   Compassionate Friends (OKC), 789-8840 
   Compassionate Friends (Norman), 360-4287 

MISSING PERSONS INQUIRIES 

   American Red Cross, 232-7121 
   American Red Cross, 1-800-537-6374 (First Christian
   Church at 36th and Walker in OKC) 

HOSPITALS 

   St. Anthony Hospital (24 hour), 272-6063 
   Southwest Medical Center, 636-7225 
   Presbyterian Hospital, 271-5100 
   University Hospital, 271-3600 


If you need to contact KOCO Channel 5 in Oklahoma City, send
email to koco@ionet.net. 

--> 

    The press is now looking to paint the bombers as white supremacists,
    but it appears that McVeigh's views were pretty ordinary - only his
    method (the bomb) was extreme.

    
    the press is frantic to backpedal its inital accusations against
    unamed hezboallah operatives.
    
    they are self perpetuating and feed on the ignorance and stupidity 
    of us teevee audiences in general. 
    
    

    McVeigh, a pathetic paranoid, who was so afraid of the federal
    government taking away his freedoms, has apparently committed an act
    that will have long-range effects of taking away freedoms from the 
    rest of us.
    
    -- Jim

This is an extract from a VERY long 1994 ADL report (Anti-Defamation League,
not Arthur D. Little, as I had originally thought when I looked it up).

The full report, titled "Armed and Dangerous" is at

	http://www.acsys.com/~sims/revolution/adl-report.html

Michigan

The militia movement has gained a following in Michigan. The most visible 
such group in the state has sprung up in northern Michigan. Spokesmen there 
make the (probably exaggerated) claim that militias have 10,000 members and 
that brigades are operating or are currently forming in 66 of the state's 
83 counties. Meetings reportedly draw 50 to 100 attendees. 

The issues animating Michigan's militias are the same as those fueling the 
movement nationally. Chief among them is a belief that gun control 
legislation is but a prelude to a complete ban on firearms ownership in 
this country. An essential additional ingredient, though, is their 
conviction that the government intends to wage war on citizens who refuse 
to give up their weapons. They cite as evidence for this view the tragic 
assault on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas. and the 1992 raid 
on the cabin of Randy Weaver in Idaho, in which Weaver's wife and son and a 
federal marshal were killed. They also contend that this same federal 
government is acquiescing in the surrender of U.S. sovereignty to the 
United Nations and other international bodies. The militia's aims are to 
"stand against tyranny, globalism, moral relativism, humanism and the New 
World Order threatening to undermine these United States of America." 

Norman E. Olson, 47, a Baptist minister and gun-shop owner in Alanson, is 
the Commander of the 1st Brigade, 2nd Division, Northern Michigan Regional 
Militia. After a few months of discussion and recruitment, the group was 
established in April 1994. It conducts training exercises twice a month. At 
a recent session, weapons reportedly included Chinese SKS semi-automatic 
assault rifles, shotguns and deer rifles. 

When residents complained about militia members clad in camouflage uniforms 
and painted faces gathering with their rifles at a village park and a 
public campground in Pellston, the village council banned firearms from 
those and other village sites. Militia commander Olson threatened to sue 
the village for allegedly violating his rights. He also announced that his 
group would no longer convene in the park or the campground, saying: "The 
people of Pellston have got to want the light of liberty." 

Olson strenuously denies that the Northern Michigan Regional Militia is 
racist or anti Semitic. He claims some Jewish ancestry, and professes 
admiration for Israel. But his militia's rhetoric on occasion has been 
extreme and alarmist. In reference to the aborted march on Washington 
promoted by Indianapolis militia leader Linda Thompson, Olson has written: 
"Many thousands are prepared to go to Washington in uniform, carry their 
guns, prepared to present the ultimatum to the President and to Congress. 
This may be the beginning of a Concord-like confrontation." A militia 
pamphlet distributed at a May meeting in Petoskey attended by some 55 
people reportedly asked: "What force exists to prevent a state or federally 
orchestrated massacre like the one in Waco from occurring in Michigan?" Ray 
Southwell, a real estate agent who is the group's information officer, has 
said: "I'd guess that within the next two years, you will see the 
Constitution suspended." His further prediction: "Christian fundamentalists 
will be the first to go under fascism this time. Just like the Jews were 
the first last time." 

Southwell speaks as though he regards confrontation with law enforcement as 
inevitable. His militia is preparing for the day "when martial law is 
declared." "We are taking a stand." he says, "and are prepared to lose 
everything." 

Other militia activists in Michigan have had their own encounter with the 
law. Police in Fowlerville (Livingston County) arrested three militia 
members on September 8, 1994. Loaded rifles and handguns, as well as gas 
masks, night-vision binoculars and two-way radios, were found in their car. 
At the men's scheduled September 14 hearing, at least two dozen uniformed 
supporters staged a protest in front of the courthouse and stomped on a 
United Nations flag. The suspects failed to appear and are considered 
fugitives. They were described by their supporters as security aides to 
Mark Koernke (a.k.a. "Mark from Michigan"), a former Army intelligence 
officer whose "America in Peril" video and speeches have helped to recruit 
members to militias around the country. 

All the confrontational talk has caught the attention of law enforcement 
authorities. "Some of their material is disquieting because it defines the 
U.S. government as the enemy said a Michigan State Police commander. "It is 
disquieting if people think redress is in armed conflict with the U.S. 
government." The head of the Detroit office of the Bureau of Alcohol, 
Tobacco and Firearms expressed the hope "that the militia groups would use 
the power of the vote rather than the threat of armed violent confrontation 
to accomplish their goals."

    
    
    on 60 minutes last night, leslie stahl did a story on the michigan
    militia, and interviewed the head of the group. nothing all that new
    from what has already been reported, but it really irked me to hear
    this idiot speculating that the government might have actually planted
    the bomb itself just to frame the militias. to make it even worse, some
    of the members "cheered" upon hearing about the bombing, and felt that
    it was revenge for waco. 
    
    how waco ended was a tragedy, and while i feel badly about what 
    happened to the children, koresh himself pretty much had it coming.
    it's very disturbing to hear people actually believing that because an 
    agency of the government, be it dea or atf, is doing their duty of 
    enforcing a law(s), regardless of what it is, that if there is 
    disagreement with the law, it's alright to commit acts of violence 
    against these agencies. i have friends, and relatives, who work in law 
    enforcement, and i hate to think that there are some people, like mcveigh 
    and some of these militia members, who could actually carry out and/or 
    condone this type of behavior and still consider themselves to be americans
     
    sorry, but REAL americans do not do this type of thing, nor do they
    condone it! 
                                                      
       

    But Bill, he was only protecting us from being invaded but the UN
    Forces that landing at Selfridge AFB in their black unmarked
    helicopters.
    
    Dennis

    
    
    RE: .218  Show me where I said that I wanted the US to go and blow up
    any country.  
    
    Mike

    
    
re:  <<< Note 393.257 by DELNI::SHOOK "Fowl Play Suspected in Hen House Death" >>>
    
    
>    how waco ended was a tragedy, and while i feel badly about what 
>    happened to the children, koresh himself pretty much had it coming.
    
    	Ah yes, he'd committed no crimes, had complied with authorities in
    the past, but he 'had it coming'. Very nice. You remind me of the folks
    who say a woman who wears seductive clothing deserves to get raped.
    
    	What happened at OKC was a horrible tragedy and nothing could be
    more grotesque than someone cheering for it. But sitting back and
    believing that the militia ordered this bombing or had anything to do
    with it is ludicrous. It was the act of one or two extremist loonies
    and nothing more....get it through your head!
    
    	jim
    

    
    
>    but it really irked me to hear
>    this idiot speculating that the government might have actually planted
>    the bomb itself just to frame the militias. 
    
    
    	While I don't think the government actually planted the bomb, it's
    not such a far fetched scenario as one might think. Do not historians
    believe that the Reichstag was burned by it's own people just so they
    could blame it on the opposition and insititute their own agenda in
    Nazi Germany?
    
    jim

    Actually, to be perfectly honest, my first impression of the bombing
    was that it was engineered indirectly by the US government or perhaps
    one of the globalist groups.  There can be NO "new world order" as
    long as the US is sovereign.  This was my impression long before I
    heard what any conspiracy group/conference had to say on it.  After
    Waco, I put nothing beyond our elite rulers (or rather the elite behind
    the scenes).
    
    This may seem paranoid as first glance, but just wait and see what
    comes out of it.  I refuse to believe that loonies just pop out of thin
    air at strategic times to help with the neutering of the BoR.  Of
    course, as of yet nothing concrete has come of this bombing in the way
    of law (it's far too soon), but I make a prediction that you will see 
    legislation- fully backed by the American sheep- that addresses internal 
    terrorism (which will complement parts of the passed crime bill).  This
    legislation is likely to take on the form of internet controls, militia
    controls and/or more gun control.  It is also likely to be used to
    EXPAND the BATF at a time when Americans are calling for its collective
    head to be cut off.  It may well encompass FBI increases, as well as more 
    "national police" (perhaps a new group committed to internal terrorism, or 
    expanded powers to other groups).
    
    Already we see a verbal attack on the organized militias by the
    controlled media.  The conditioning of the American sheep has begun. 
    It won't be long before most Americans will be completely  brainwashed
    into believing that all militias are future internal terrorists in the
    making (thus we need additional national police to be able to deal with
    such a threat).
    
    No, this whole thing smacks of convenience to me.  It is too convenient
    for the powers that be, to be just some looney.  Even some of the
    mild-mannered conspiracy folks will think it just some looney who helps
    to eliminate their rights by terrorism, rather than a small part of a
    greater scheme.  
    
    In a time when the American people have drawn a line in the sand for
    Congress; a time when we are pushing hard to reign in a bloated and 
    power-hungry government; a time when representatives are elected en
    mass due to their pro-BoR and small government platforms; and a time
    when the American people seem determined to bring back the Constitution
    as the law, rather than just a guide that can be ignored when
    convenient; I find it amazing that we are being once again exposed to a
    "national crisis" event that is slowly being spun as a propaganda
    campaign against militias, and one that can lead to the expansion of
    federal powers all in the name of controlling terrorism.  I find it 
    amazing that in such a time of unity of people to take back their 
    government, a major event happens that plays upon emotions, that may 
    possibly be used to enact "emergency" measures or even legislation that 
    can further distance the American people from their BoR.
    
    At some point in time, coincidental timing becomes hard to swallow. 
    Maybe the above is just a paranoid fantasy, I'll admit, but the whole
    thing stinks, IMO.  As the "Contract" with America goes on rather
    successfully, I kept wondering what the globalist-types could do to
    turn the people's focus away from taking back the government (which is
    certianly opposite of what they'd like to see happen).  I kept
    wondering how this resurrection of American spirit for freedom would be
    quenched.  Certianly not by a simply looney opening fire in a
    McDonalds, that wouldn't be enough.  It would have to something big
    enough for the media to bite into for weeks, and big enough to hold the
    people's attentions throughout.  It would seem that the OKC bombing
    fits this bill quite well.
    
    Well see in the not-too distant future whether my ramblings are
    paranoid conspiracy nutter ramblings, or if just maybe there is
    something more sinister at work.  We may never know the truth one way
    or the other, but perhaps the fruit born out of this event will bear
    witness to what is behind it.  Certainly, I hope my first impression is
    utterly incorrect.
    
    
    -steve (just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get
    me  8^) ) 

             <<< Note 393.256 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>

> The issues animating Michigan's militias are the same as those fueling the 
> movement nationally. Chief among them is a belief that gun control 
>legislation is but a prelude to a complete ban on firearms ownership in 
>this country. An essential additional ingredient, though, is their 
>conviction that the government intends to wage war on citizens who refuse 
>to give up their weapons. They cite as evidence for this view the tragic 
>assault on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas. and the 1992 raid 
>on the cabin of Randy Weaver in Idaho, in which Weaver's wife and son and a 
>federal marshal were killed. They also contend that this same federal 
>government is acquiescing in the surrender of U.S. sovereignty to the 
>United Nations and other international bodies. The militia's aims are to 
>"stand against tyranny, globalism, moral relativism, humanism and the New 
>World Order threatening to undermine these United States of America." 

Boy, does that sound like some of our illustrious 'boxer's or what? Kinda 
gives you the the willies...

    
    re: 393.262
    
   >                                        It is also likely to be used to
   > EXPAND the BATF at a time when Americans are calling for its collective
   > head to be cut off.  It may well encompass FBI increases, as well as more
   > "national police" (perhaps a new group committed to internal terrorism, 
   > or expanded powers to other groups).
     
    Driving in this morning, they mentioned that the FBI was precluded for
    infiltrating these groups unless they committed a crime.  The
    legislation the Clinton administration is putting froth would permit
    the government to infiltrate organizations based on suspicion.  
    
    They seem also to want to make a gun issue out of this, although no
    guns were used.
    
    Living in a "free" society has it's drawbacks.  It's not utopia.
    I'd rather live in a "free" society and take my chances.
    
    
      
    
    
    

    Re .101:
    
    > I have long held the opinion that our response to such attacks needs to
    > be totally out of proportion to the the severity of the original
    > attack. You blow up a building, we blow up one of your cities; . . .
    
    Good-bye Detroit.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

       <<< Note 393.260 by SUBPAC::SADIN "One if by LAN, two if by C" >>>

    
    
    
>>    how waco ended was a tragedy, and while i feel badly about what 
>>    happened to the children, koresh himself pretty much had it coming.
    
>    	Ah yes, he'd committed no crimes, had complied with authorities in
>    the past, but he 'had it coming'. Very nice. You remind me of the folks
>    who say a woman who wears seductive clothing deserves to get raped.
    
>    	What happened at OKC was a horrible tragedy and nothing could be
>    more grotesque than someone cheering for it. But sitting back and
>    believing that the militia ordered this bombing or had anything to do
>    with it is ludicrous. It was the act of one or two extremist loonies
>    and nothing more....get it through your head!

It doesn't matter what Koresh did in the past. He had every opportunity to 
do battle to protect his rights in the courts, but instead he choose to 
make a martyr of himself and the people in his compound. The gummint made 
mistakes, and may have overstepped its legal bounds at the outset, but 
Koresh is the one who made the situation deadly for innocents.

No one said that the militia is directly responsible. It's the seige 
mindset that these guys foster that can be pretty much harmless in a bunch 
of war hero wannabies but *disasterous* in someone who's got major head 
problems.

> The legislation the Clinton administration is putting froth would permit
> the government to infiltrate organizations based on suspicion.  

Time to write your congresscritter again, folks . . . 

>It doesn't matter what Koresh did in the past. He had every opportunity to 
>do battle to protect his rights in the courts, but instead he choose to 
>make a martyr of himself and the people in his compound.

This didn't work for George and it won't work for you, either.

    
    RE: .231
    
    jc,
    
     So what would be the solution in your world??
    
    
    

    
    .269, Andy:
    
    In my world, which is probably not far off from your world, the tit-
    for-tat tactics of Israel have OBVIOUSLY not worked, thus they were
    forced to resort to negotiation with the PLO.  I imagine that most such
    disputes end in similar fashion, if they end at all.  Military strikes
    are not a creative solution, and usually not a solution at all.
    
    Do I have a better solution?  Well, an intelligent addressing of the
    issues at hand might go farther than endless strikes and bombings.
    A problem well stated is a problem half solved.
    
    If the deaths in the WTC bombing were crimes, than so would be any non-
    combatant deaths resulting from a `surgical strike'.  If you think that
    those deaths are acceptable, then you are essentially admitting that
    you are at war, and better be prepared to accept more in return.
    
    As for your militias...well...I guess you saw 60 minutes last night.
    
    jc
    

        <<< Note 393.268 by MOLAR::DELBALSO "I (spade) my (dogface)" >>>

Care to tell me how I'm "georging"?

>Care to tell me how I'm "georging"?

Quite simple, actually.

George contends that the BATF did no wrong (other than _possibly_ handling
the situation a bit extremely) and that Koresh should have done battle
in the courts rather than in the Waco compound. You're apparently of
the same opinion. As has been mentioned multiple times by many in here,
you are both wrong. Rather than rehashing the thing, review the Waco
topic.

    
    re: .270
    
    jc...
    
     Well... that sounds all well and good, except fot the fact that it
    doesn't matter how the Israeli/PLO thing works out. They may "settle"
    things and it'll work for a little while, but the outcome will always
    be the same over there...
    
      Do you really believe, with the murderous hate that's prevalent in
    the minds of those people, that it can ever come to real peace? The
    pessimist in me sort a doubts it, although I would like to see peace
    there...
    
      With human nature the way it is, yours is a far-fetched utopia...
    

    Something I forgot to mention under my "convenience" issue was that
    suspects are already in custody for the bombing (which was the same
    with the WTC bombing).
    
    Strange, but with the bumbling efforts given in the past by the federal
    authorities (breaking into the wrong house, etc.), I have to wonder how
    they suddenly become super-detectives in this case.
    
    Of course, I'm on the "question everything" philosophy when it comes to
    the government.
    
    
    -steve

    
    
    
        re .274
    
    
        Seems to me that this McVeigh dude wanted to get caught. Speeding,
        no plates,...he probably believes that he's now a p.o.w.
    
    
        Ed

    ....and will be a martyr for "the cause".   

    re: last two
    
    That's always a possibility, I suppose.

                BILL CLINTON'S REICHSTAG FIRE
                   -- by L. Neil Smith --

     How very convenient.  

     How very damned convenient.  

     A heinous act is committed in Oklahoma City -- the bombing
of a federal building in which many lives, including those of a
dozen innocent children, are blasted away -- and the spokesmen of
both established political parties see nothing in it but another
opportunity to nourish their insatiable desire for control over
the lives of others at the irrational, unnecessary expense of a
sacred American tradition, more two centuries old, of unfettered
individual liberty.

     The spectacularly popular Republican showman who frequently
identifies himself on his national radio program as the "Doctor
of Democracy" spends two days wallowing in orgiastic fantasies of
collective punishment -- a variety of socialism characteristic of
Europe or Japan (where the light of the Constitution never
shines) wholly alien to anyplace in America but the Army and the
public schools. He pompously declares the moral equivalent of war
and implies that it is time for Americans to sacrifice their
time-honored and vital liberties for mere physical security.

     Meanwhile, American history's most discredited president and
his power-hungry wife get a second lease on their worthless and
destructive political lives as, lower lip extended and trembling,
he struts and pouts on national television like the comical
transvestites in _The Rocky Horror Picture Show_, pretending to a
strength of character and resolve he never possessed and never
will.

     Having done her level best to start a second Civil War, his
Attorney General, a dangerously stupid and incompetent piece of
work who has allegedly stated on more than one occasion that
anyone is a potential criminal or terrorist whose opinions
regarding life's most fundamental issues happen to differ from
her own, is now free to assert without public opposition that she
is vindicated.

     Likewise, equally stupid and incompetent people in the
national mass media, who have sucked up unceasingly during the
20th century to those in power and have lately made a habit of
attempting to identify distinguished and respectable civil rights
organizations such as the Libertarian Party and the National
Rifle Association with hate-motivated groups like the skinheads
and the Ku Klux Klan, continue to profit from the lies they
shovel daily at the public.

     Efforts in Congress -- some of them apparently in earnest --
to repeal more than four decades' worth of viciously
unconstitutional legislation get sidetracked and, if the
president and his cronies have their way, derailed altogether.

     Outlaw government agencies responsible for one increasingly
illegal, murderously violent attack on innocent citizens after
another receive a massive whitewashing by the whorish,
authority-bedazzled media, while local police who have taken to
imitating those agencies renew their "license to kill".

     Private talk and public forums on the computer internet,
previously immune to scrutiny, censorship, or control by the
establishment media or the government get closed down "for the
duration" -- for which anyone even faintly familiar with history
reads "forever" -- to the colossal relief of both major parties.

     Americans who were beginning to regain control of their own
political lives can now be lumped together with racists and
perverts -- and effectively silenced.  The Bill of Rights,
threatening for the past several years to make an unwanted
resurgence in American political life, goes into the shredder,
instead.

     What a windfall.  

     What a damned convenient windfall.  

     It's exactly the kind of windfall enjoyed by Adolf Hitler's
National Socialist German Workers' Party when the Reichstag, the
seat of representative government in that country, burned down
and the newly-elected Nazi chancellor, blaming the fire on his
political enemies, used it as an excuse to turn his country into
a dictatorship.  Historians are generally agreed that the Nazis
themselves started the fire -- whereas the pattern of the
Democratic Party in America has been to wait around, like
vultures on a cactus, until something horrible happens (the
assassination of a presidential candidate, the shooting of a
score of restaurant patrons) that they can make the best
political use of.

     Nevertheless, the effect is the same.  

     The simple, politically inconvenient fact, however, is that
terrorist incidents do not stem from any insufficiency of
government, but invariably from too much of the stuff.  This
country's problems in the Middle East -- very much on America's
guilty conscience following the explosion in Oklahoma City --
would not even exist if American politics were kept within
American borders.  Yes, that's what I said -- and if this be
isolationism, let us make the most of it!

     If, as it presently appears, the Oklahoma tragedy relates,
instead, to the infamous and tragically needless events of 1993
in Waco, Texas, then it is time to drastically reduce the role of
government in American lives, as well, not to condone and expand
the scope of the state terrorism which apparently provoked it.

     There is only one way to accomplish that -- and to prevent
this bombing from being used as yet another excuse to terrorize
and punish millions of Americans who had absolutely nothing to do
with it -- but there are many ways to begin.

     First, all federal agencies must be disarmed, their
employees forbidden to carry personal weapons on the job (or to
wear masks or to affect military clothing), and their heavy
weaponry and vehicles-of-war surrendered to the nearest units of
a denationalized National Guard.  These agencies must then be
reduced to that number specifically authorized by the
Constitution under the Ninth and Tenth Amendments.  If a few
remaining federal investigators wish something to be done that is
both lawful and requires the use of force, they may apply to
local law enforcement for assistance -- and, more importantly,
for consent.

     Next, the "War on Drugs", a disastrous Republican error
which, by design or otherwise, has provided most of the
justification for government incursions on individual liberty in
recent years -- and which has served only to enhance departmental
appropriations, numbers of personnel, and the dictatorial power
of bureaucrats and politicians (while enriching their nominal
enemies the so-called drug lords) -- must come to an immediate,
screeching halt.  It was never anything but a war on the Bill of
Rights in any case.  And any law -- like RICO -- which authorizes
unconstitutional seizures of property must be repealed.

     All foreign aid, defense assistance, and overseas military
presence must end, and a drastic reduction in "diplomatic"
activities undertaken, as well. Americans are not the "cops of
the world" and every attempt to make them so merely adds to the
likelihood of another disaster such as that we have just
witnessed.  Scholars mindful of the dismal political history of
the 19th and 20th centuries, once warned that the Vietnam War
would lead to shrinkages of freedom at home, and they were right.
We are witnessing the culmination of that process.

     Stringent -- make that, "draconian" -- enforcement of the
highest law of the land, the Bill of Rights, must become
America's number one political priority.  The population that
must be scrutinized all collect government paychecks.

     These measures would constitute a good beginning.  The
question arises, how is it to be accomplished?  Certainly not by
relying on the Democratic or Republican Parties which have long
since betrayed all of their constitutional responsibilities.
Before the Oklahoma City bombing, the media were full of reports
that Americans are hankering for a third party, although mention
was seldom made of which party it might be or what they believe
it should stand for.

     America has had a third party for more than twenty years.
Perhaps it's time to make use of it.  Those who wish to see it
achieve power and do the things listed above (and more) must work
with those who only wish to continue living in a free country.
If both groups -- to give an illustrative example -- were to
begin putting bumper stickers on their cars that say, "NEXT TIME
I'M VOTING LIBERTARIAN", it wouldn't matter what all those bumper
sticker _stickers_ really intend.  For some it would be the
literal truth.  For others -- those who only want their own
parties to straighten up and fly right -- it would be a threat,
one that could be conveyed in letters and phone calls, as well.

     Try thinking of the Libertarian Party as a rolled-up
newspaper, useful in making the Republican puppy (I've given up
on the Democratic bitch) go where he's supposed to -- not on that
beautiful antique carpet we call the Constitution.

     BAP!  BAP!  BAP!  

     BAD Bobby, BAD Newtie!  

     BAP!  BAP!  BAP!  

     Of course to Janet Reno, such an exercise of free speech
would be terrorism.

     But then, so is the rest of the Bill of Rights.

L. Neil Smith <lneil@lever.ncdl.com>
Author:   THE PROBABILITY BROACH, THE CRYSTAL EMPIRE,
THE LANDO CALRISSIAN ADVENTURES, HENRY MARTYN, and PALLAS
Editor:   LEVER ACTION BBS (303) 493-6674, FIDOnet: 1:306/56
Founder & International Coordinator:
Libertarian Second Amendment Caucus
Secretary & Legislative Director:
Weld County Fish & Wildlife Association
NRA Life Member



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On Fri, 21 Apr 1995 13:32:32 -0500 (CDT) Paul Watson said:
>KRLD Dallas, 1:20pm
>Just announced One suspect arrested tied to Militia of Michigan.
>A right wing group tied to White supremacist.
>Two men are held up in "Decker" Michigan in a stand off with FBI.
>This is the famous "Mark from Michigan"
>They are saying this group was very sympathic with the Raid on the Branch
>Davidian and they did this as revenge.
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Paul Watson, pwatson@utdallas.edu  Purchasing Department  "DISCLAIMER"
>The University of Texas at Dallas  ph# 214/883-2307, fax# 214/883-2348
>----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for posting your thoughts, Paul.

I am in Michigan at this moment.  The information relayed above
is a total fabrication, disinformation, a deliberate lie.

Loacl media reported here some time ago that the guy in Deckerville,
who is actually the Public Information Officer for that county's
militia, is not held and is not wanted.  He DID hear on the radio
that the FBI "was looking for him" earlier today, whereupon he
tunred himself in to his local Sheriff and asked what this whole thing
was about.  At that point, the FBI backed away and announced that they were
in fact NOT seeking this guy - after plastering news releases to the
contrary all over the national media all day long.  CNN persisted
in showing the sheriff collecting this gentleman after he called and
turned himself in. Late this afternoon, CNN was still replaying this
tape clip with the implication in the commentary that this person was
being taken into custody by and/or for the FBI at that moment.  As of
this writing. Mr. Nichols is neing referred to as a "possible witness".
Nothing more.

There are not, and have never been, any Michigan Militia "barraceded suspects"
in Deckerville (no such town as "Decker"). Mark Koernke, sometimes
called "Mark from Michigan" has never been mentioned in local news
telecasts. This story, like the phony one some weeks ago about
"taking over" a local NG base, was manufactured by a known wacko in
Detroit who is trying desperately to get on the fed payroll as a "paid
informant".  In the past, when this gentleman lacked facts, he has simply
made them up to fit his psychotic reality.

Donohue tried the old lie about "white supremacists" in the militias,
and had to eat his words when the commander of the Ohio militia,
who just happens to be Black, showed up for the taping. "White supie"
stories about the Michigan Militia are just as phoney; the
membership of same includes every race and sex, as well as disabled persons.
Try another flavor of lie next time.

The concept of a "revenge raid" as some nebulous "payback" for Waco
by person or persons unknown is laughable.

IF, repeat IF this was done by any terrorist group, the blame for that
lies squarely on American media. If this was a terrorist act, it
seems to clearly be a "copy cat" act inspired by the lather of news
"coverage" of the World Trade Center bombing.  The similarities are
non-trivial and not credible as "coincidence", right down to the
"Arab-looking" suspects and the "rented van". Just like the WTC.

Who stands to gain from this act the most?  Clearly, the BATF (who
already have a documented history of genocide/mass child murder).
They stand to benefit in the form of the very survival of their agency,
until recently hard-pressed in Congress to explain abuse of
innocent American civilians.  They stand to gain in the form of
power, prestige, AND MONEY, to say nothing of probably gaining
blanket and retroactive immunity from prosecution for ALL acts
of any kind as part of the Omnibus Anti-Terrorism Act that is
lurking in Congress. The Waco trial transcripts ($450) clearly
document BATF evidence-tampering and coverups after Waco. These guys
have NOTHING to lose by such an act, and potentially EVERYTHING
to gain.

Speaking of the anti-terrorism bill, it is truly amazing how many
newsfroids have been coming up with "ideas off the top of their heads"
during this flap which are in fact direct quotes from the pending bill,
which is intended to relieve Americans of any of those troublesome
rights they may still retain, including allowing the President to
declare any person or group as terrorists for any reason, suspending
all due process (illegally, according to the Constitution) for same.
Ask any Japanese-American what happens when (not if) the feds decide
to use public hysteria to abrogate the rights of any group.

One thing nobody has explained to me yet.  Since the bomb was claimed
to be OUTSIDE the building, it seems odd that the steel reinforcing bars
embedded in the concrete of the building walls were bent OUTWARD in the
TV photos I have seen.

If I was in a nation outside the USA right now, I would be truly worried.
If the USA turns into a Kruschev-style totalitarian state, it won't be
long before those in power start casting about for the next place to which
they can export their tyranny.  Without effective controls on such actions
from within the USA, you can look forward to joingin us in the NEW Gulag
Archipellago soon.  Very soon.


W. K. Gorman

        Re: .274 - Federal Bumblers becoming super detectives

    Have you considered that the only NEWSWORTHY items about the Federal
    agencies, and their capabilities are their failures.


    Our intelligence and enforcement agencies have some (granted not all)
    extremely able people to apply to problems such as this.   These
    agencies also have or have access to technology that we might be able to
    dream about, the future is yesterday kind of technology.

    Perhaps these people never make the news just participating in catching
    every day baddies, etc.

    We have a suspect in custody (who has been identified as renting the
    bomb-carrying truck and who was spotted at the scene of the bombing)
    yet we already have some individuals in this country claiming that 
    this bombing was a *government plot*.  (Are these the same people
    who have suggested that members of the militia engage in a 'March
    on Washington' with guns to give our Federal Government an 'ULTIMATUM',
    otherwise known as, 'Civil War II'?)
    
    Someone referred to McVeigh some notes back as being a 'pathetic
    paranoid' - and I have to ask, 'Compared to whom?'  Compared to the
    the authors of some of this material being brought here from the
    Internet, McVeigh sounds pretty normal.
    
    If the folks who agree with McVeigh's point of view had wanted to do
    the one thing that would hurt their cause more than any other single
    act they could have ever done, McVeigh has certainly made their dreams
    come true.  The rhetoric coming from the far right will never look the
    same again to the people of this country.

    re: .281
    
    
    From the reports I've read, no BATF fatalities exist.  Pretty bumbled
    bombing, IMO, if revenge for Waco (as the media is now hyping) is the
    intent.
    
    Instead, children and innocents get killed.
    
    Once again, HOW CONVENIENT!
    
    This agency is not beyond ANYTHING, as they have amply proved.
    
    
    -steve (who's not saying they were behind it, but leaves that
    possibility on the table)

    Just heard that the "leader" of the NH militia group has the same name
    as me.
     
    Arrrggghhh....
    
    

>    If the folks who agree with McVeigh's point of view

Assuming that he actually is guilty of this, I don't know of anyone who's
stated that they "agree with [his] point of view", since that PoV is
apparently that bombing a Federal building without regard for the lives
of innocent people is a justifiable act.

    RE: .282  Steve Leech
    
    > From the reports I've read, no BATF fatalities exist.  Pretty bumbled
    > bombing, IMO, if revenge for Waco (as the media is now hyping) is the
    > intent.
    
    The BATF office was on the other side of the building.  Meanwhile,
    people in buildings across the street *were* killed, so the survival
    of *anyone* in the Federal building at all is almost a miracle.
    
    > Instead, children and innocents get killed.    
    > Once again, HOW CONVENIENT!
    
    The children of some Federal employees were killed.  If you had
    children, would you see this as 'convenient' (for your own children
    to die?)
    
    > This agency is not beyond ANYTHING, as they have amply proved.
    
    Some of those who are paranoid against them are not beyond anything,
    as they have amply proved.

    Would bombing a federal building violate the Geneva Convention or any
    other laws regulating war?
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    
    .273, Andy:
    
    Utopian?  Maybe.  But my point is mainly this: that it is inconsistent
    of you to be worried about how many innocent Americans and constitutional
    rights will be caught in Clinton's broad net when at the same time
    being unconcerned about the lives of innocent foreigners caught in the 
    blast of a `surgical strike'.  If due process should exist for one
    crime, it should exist for the other.
    
    jc
    

    > Would bombing a federal building violate the Geneva Convention or any
    > other laws regulating war?
    
    I'd think it would depend upon who had done it.  Such laws and
    Conventions are ordinarily set up as agreements between signatories-
    and typically only sovereign states sign them. 
    
    DougO

    
    re. 257
    
    These militia people cheered on hearing the news about the bombing?
    Sick bastards. Hope they use real bullets next time they play their
    silly war games together.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

>    The BATF office was on the other side of the building.  Meanwhile,
>    people in buildings across the street *were* killed, so the survival
>    of *anyone* in the Federal building at all is almost a miracle.

Not really.  There was a lot of concrete and steel between the bomb and the
other side of the Federal building.  There was only air between the bomb
and the buildings across the street.

    Why did people cheer when bombs destroyed buildings and people in Iraq?
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    
    re. 291
    
    I don't think the Iragi's cheered when the bombs were dropped them.
    So why would a militia group cheer, when hearing the news. Who the
    hell do they represent, the evil force they keep telling everybody
    else to fear. I would just hate to see the government these clowns
    would set up. Love it, or we blow your brains out.
    
    How long would these militia men be alive in OC if they did that
    in public? Not very long.
    
    A this to point, these militia groups are in trouble. If they 
    breed the types that did this act, they should be in trouble. And
    based on the cheering, there are a lot more of these crazies
    then is comfortable.
    
    
    
    
    
    

Iraqis.  NNTTM.

    Re .292:
    
    > I don't think the Iragi's cheered when the bombs were dropped them.
    
    People in the United States cheered when Iraqis were killed.  Why?
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

From:	RUSURE::ZAHAREE "Michael W. Zaharee  24-Apr-1995 1316" 24-APR-1995 13:16:49.53
To:	EDP
CC:	ZAHAREE
Subj:	LA Times investigation and other stuff.

From:	TIS::HAMBURGER "hamburger@tis.enet.dec.com  24-Apr-1995 1210" 24-APR-1995 12:08:29.60
To:	@SWAT
CC:	
Subj:	Even the media smells a rat

Subj:	UPDATE:  More fingers pointing to BATF as OKC bombers?


The following items just in from various FAX trees:

The Los Angeles Times is reported as conducting an investigation into
whether the bombed building(s) in OKC were at full staff or had been
partially emptied;

LA Times is also reported as investigating whether or not any BATF,
FBI or other federal official had THEIR kids in the day care center when
the bomb went off;

After seismologists in OKC reported recording multiple concussions
from the blast site, investigators are now said to be reporting traces
of a military-grade explosive, not a fertilizer bomb, from the rubble:

Unconfirmed reports indicate that The house of Mark Koernke,
Mark from Michigan", was raided within the last 48 hours.
Mr. K. was not at home.  I presume the feds killed
his cat, as in the Lamplugh case, to "teach him a lesson". Why the
raid?  Best guess would be that McVey or Nichols had purchased a tape
from Mr. K. at some time in the past.  An obvious plot, right?

Most damning of all for the BATF and other feds, reports are now
surfacing from many quarters that the feds were warned weeks ago
that McVey and Nichols had been declared personna non grata by the
Michigan militia for advocating some sort of attack, possibly a bombing,
of a federal building. Allegedly, the feds sat on the warning.

Or did they?  Was this the inspiration for the
plan to bomb the building, complete with ready-made fall guys?
Or were McVey and Nichols merely fed provocateurs trying to create
an incident, as the FBI appears to have done at the World Trade Center
bombing as indicated by the recently released/telecast tape of their
agent/informant within the group that perpetrated that crime?

Same question remains:  who stands to gain the most from this act?
The answer always comes back pointing to the same rogue agency.
Let's hope all the good cops still out there will either prove
or disprove BATF complicity in this heinous outrage in OKC ASAP.


W. K. Gorman

 Conspiracy theorists must love this one..

Note 393.285 by BSS::S_CONLON "A Season of Carnelians..."      
        
>    The BATF office was on the other side of the building. 
 
    Then that brings more qustion of intent, IMO, not less. 
      
>   The children of some Federal employees were killed.  If you had
>   children, would you see this as 'convenient' (for your own children
>   to die?)
 
    I think it would be an interesting experiment to see if any bureau men 
    a) had children
    b) did not bring their child to the day care on the day of the bombing,
    when they normally do drop their kids off
    c) called in sick, or otherwise didn't show up at the office as usual
    
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not stating anything "matter of fact".  I do
    see that the only group who could possibly gain from this bombing is
    the BATF, the NWO elite, and the federal government.  I also see the
    timing as a bit more than suspicious.
    
>   Some of those who are paranoid against them are not beyond anything,
>   as they have amply proved.
    
    Then your mind is already made up by the "facts" blurted out to you
    by the media.
    
    It's good to be sceptical on these conspiracy rantings of mine.  You
    should also be equally sceptical of the media and government in
    general.  If you aren't, you will only be deceived by their propaganda,
    and will never see the match that finally ignites out founding
    document, turning it to ash.
    
    
    -steve

    
    re. 292
    
    I don't know, and simply don't care why they cheered. That is
    their right to cheer if they want to I suppose.
    
    After Nam, I don't cheer about things resulting from war.
    
    
    
    
    
    

        <<< Note 393.272 by MOLAR::DELBALSO "I (spade) my (dogface)" >>>


> George contends that the BATF did no wrong (other than _possibly_ handling
> the situation a bit extremely) and that Koresh should have done battle
> in the courts rather than in the Waco compound. You're apparently of
> the same opinion. As has been mentioned multiple times by many in here,
> you are both wrong. Rather than rehashing the thing, review the Waco
> topic.

Well, I did wade through most of the Waco stuff - including the warrant, 
and yup, I agree with George, and I see nothing there to show me I'm "wrong."
There's a lot of speculation coming from both sides.

Worst case, the BATF was overzealous in its initial raid, and the FBI 
misjudged tragically in the final assualt. Apparently, according to the NRA
grapevine, the BATF stuff is not too uncommon. If true, we'd better do a
thorough review of their practices (Senate hearings? according to one entry
pulled off the Web, that supposedly happened, but I didn't see anything on
it. Did you?) and prosecute offenders and fix the problems - even dismantle
BATF, if that's appropriate. (Of course, you NRA'ers would love that. You
don't want *any* gummint involvement in arms. An incident like OC, though,
makes me glad we have legal reasons to keep an eye on gun wachos.) But
hearings wouldn't satisfy the paranoid loonies here in the 'box or anyhwere
else. 'Cause in your minds, the whole legal system is corrupt. Government
is corrupt.  Every friggin thing's corrupt except your local gun club. Even
a guilty verdict against the Koresh followers was the result of a "stacked"
jury. There's simply no way out is there? Sorta like the Davidians. 

During the 51 day seige, the lens of America was on Mt Carmel, and Koresh 
knew it. At any time during all that negotiation Koresh could have called 
it quits and come out to take his fight to court. Sure, he probably 
believed he would have gotten screwed in court, but at least none of the 
innocent kids would have died. He knew he wouldn't get shot because he knew 
he was center stage on the media. Do you really think the Feds would open 
fire on raised hands and white flags in front of CNN? But he was on a 
biblical mission, not a 2nd ammendment defense. He would no more have 
sought refuge in the legal system than Jim Jones would've told everyone to 
go home. There may be some of the blood of children on the Fed's hands, but 
it was Koresh who was up to his elbows in it. But that doesn't fit your 
agenda; that doesn't fit your government-as-evil-empire imagery. So you 
ignore it.

I suppose this makes me "a jackbooted witch of the Reno pursuasion." Well, 
I'll just have to live with that label, as inaccurate as it may be. 
I'd far, far prefer that to being a paranoid geek of the Oklahoma City 
Bomber persuasion.

Tom

>Worst case, the BATF was overzealous in its initial raid, and the FBI 
>misjudged tragically in the final assualt. 

'overzealous'? 'misjudged'?  Interesting words to deflect from the fact
that children WERE killed at Waco.

>else. 'Cause in your minds, the whole legal system is corrupt. 

Well, the President and numerous other government officials have called
the legal system 'corrupt'.  Do you believe them or not?

>Government
>is corrupt.  

Well, there do seem to be more and more cases of abuse surfacing over the
last few years.

>During the 51 day seige, the lens of America was on Mt Carmel, and Koresh 
>knew it. At any time during all that negotiation Koresh could have called 
>it quits and come out to take his fight to court. Sure, he probably 
>believed he would have gotten screwed in court, but at least none of the 
>innocent kids would have died. He knew he wouldn't get shot because he knew 
>he was center stage on the media. 

Hate to tell you the obvious, but he was STILL center stage when the government
chose to attack him (and his followers) resulting in the bloodshed.  The lens
was still there when the government bulldozed just about any evidence about what
went on.  If the 'lens' did not protect the entire compound, why should Karresh
have believed it would protect him?

>Do you really think the Feds would open 
>fire on raised hands and white flags in front of CNN? 

Perhaps that is why all non tactical people were kept a number of miles away
from the site.  So they could NOT record what happened (or would happen).
Oh yes, it was for their safety... Rigghhhht.  News people were allowed in
Vietnam and Desert Stor.  Were those locations any 'safer' than Waco?

>But he was on a 
>biblical mission, not a 2nd ammendment defense.

Well, so the govenment propaganda says.

>go home. There may be some of the blood of children on the Fed's hands, but 
>it was Koresh who was up to his elbows in it. 

Sorry, but it is the govenment who is to blame for the deaths.  I do not buy
the 'well, you should have done what we told you to do' excuse for the
attack.

-Joe

    RE: .298  Steve Leech
    
    >> The BATF office was on the other side of the building. 
 
    > Then that brings more qustion of intent, IMO, not less. 
    
    If all the BATF staff in the building had died, then it would have
    been proof that the BATF had planned carefully to make sure they
    would not be blamed for the bombing.  Since none were killed, then
    it seems like proof that the BATF had planned carefully to make
    sure that the 1200-1500 pounds of explosives were the exact right
    amount of blast to get only HALF the building and not ALL of it.
    
    If half the BATF staff had been killed, then it would have been
    proof that they didn't want to ALL die, but thought it would look
    suspicious if NONE of them died.  If one-fourth or three-fourths
    of the BATF staff had been killed, then it would have been proof
    that they planned to let a portion of themselves die to make it
    look good (but not all.)
    
    It could be twisted any way you like (to suit the number of BATF
    staff killed.)
    
    > I think it would be an interesting experiment to see if any bureau men 
    > a) had children
    > b) did not bring their child to the day care on the day of the bombing,
    > when they normally do drop their kids off
    > c) called in sick, or otherwise didn't show up at the office as usual
    
    If any single BATF agent was sick (or had a sick child, or a child
    absent from Daycare for any other reason whatsoever) - then it'll
    be all the proof you need, right?
    
    > Don't get me wrong, I'm not stating anything "matter of fact".  I do
    > see that the only group who could possibly gain from this bombing is
    > the BATF, the NWO elite, and the federal government.  I also see the
    > timing as a bit more than suspicious.
    
    The group who had something to gain are those who were out for REVENGE
    against the Federal Government (and the BATF in particular.)  True, it's
    a sick, perverted and disgusting thing to try to gain - but certainly
    not an implausible goal.
    
    Also, the far right has the gain (by blowing up a Federal Building)
    of possibly getting some of its members to become even MORE
    violent and extreme against the Feds by saying that the Federal
    Government conspired to blow themselves up and then BLAME some
    'poor innocent patriot' from the Michigan Militia.
    
    >> Some of those who are paranoid against them are not beyond anything,
    >> as they have amply proved.
    
    > Then your mind is already made up by the "facts" blurted out to you
    > by the media.
    
    Steve, I'm basing my observation on what the right wing is saying
    ABOUT ITSELF.  They are making their position less and less credible
    by claiming that the Federal Government bombed itself for political
    gain, especially when a certified right-winger is already in custody
    for the deed.  (Paranoia is one thing, but this is pure insanity.)
    
    > It's good to be sceptical on these conspiracy rantings of mine.  You
    > should also be equally sceptical of the media and government in
    > general. 
    
    I was way ahead of the media on the motives for this bombing.  I never
    bought the 'middle Eastern connection' for a minute (nor have I bought 
    the idea of 'white supremacists' being the force behind this bombing.)
    
    The far right's cause has been damaged, and it appears they are bound
    and determined to do themselves as much additional damage as humanly
    possible.  I don't think the American people will buy it.

    
    Keep bleating, Suzanne......

On OK-C bombing:

It is difficult to believe a government conspiracy when the truck used to
the explosives was rented just a short time before the blast by the person
they have in custody. 


On Waco:

>Worst case, the BATF was overzealous in its initial raid, and the FBI 
>misjudged tragically in the final assualt. 

Best case is the FBI and BATF were grossly incompetent. Worst case is they
deliberately pursued a policy of escallation (day and night bombardment
of light and sound eg: Psych warfare), used inappropriate weapons (fully
automatic high capacity weapons, aircraft, armored vehicles) on civilians
(illegal) and deliberately covered up their tracks (pushed the building
into itself so as to be totally consumed by the fire).

Regardless of why Keresh would not come out, inside he and his people
were a threat to noone. The level of force such as used in Waco is inexcuseable.
 
On the media:

I watch in amazement how the media, in pursuit of the scoop and 'first to report
the latest' have become little more than gossip channels. How these folks
can get away with spewing mis-information, define whole classes of people as
evil because of the actions of a handfull of Psychopaths, and blame the blast
on the environment put forth by a particular political leaning is quite simply
beyond me.

Doug.

On the President:

The bombing has given Clinton yet another opportunity to show just what 
an incompetent he is, turning a tragic bombing by a handfull of idiots
into a political club in which to beat the opposition and further errode
our constitutional rights while claiming otherwise ....

What respect I had for the man on the few issues he did well on is now long
gone.

Doug.

    RE: .304  
    
    > It is difficult to believe a government conspiracy when the truck used to
    > the explosives was rented just a short time before the blast by the 
    > person they have in custody. 
    
    Exactly.  (This person has also been identified by eye witnesses for
    the truck rental *and* for being near the Federal building shortly
    before the blast.)
    
    It doesn't take 'blind faith' in the government (or being a 'sheep')
    to find such claims about a government conspiracy to be horribly
    discrediting for those who promote them.

 Well said on both counts, Mr. Fyfe.






 Jim

    
    
    
     .304
    
    
      The media "gets away" with it because of the 1st Amendment,...
      ....just like morons can have access to weapons because of
      the 2nd.
    
    
      Ed

The major reason I have at this point for discarding the government
conspiracy theory is that McVeigh is apparently silent and agreeable
to the charges leveled against him. This leads me to believe that he's
either an extremely devoted government undercover agent bound to secrecy
in keeping the conspiracy invisible (which if true would support the
conspiracy and the government would be sacrificing a very valuable
agent for a bad gamble, which is unlikely in my opinion), or that he's
really a lowlife scumbag who did this for his own personal reasons. If he
were anything in between and was actually involved in a conspiracy, he'd be
singing like a canary about now in order to make a name for himself and
expose the whole mess to save his butt.

    RE:  <<< Note 393.306 by BSS::S_CONLON "A Season of Carnelians..." >>>

    I have not heard anyone... _anyone_... claim that the government
    planted the bomb. We have a few people who are questioning the
    facts as the government and the media presents them, and because
    we generally state our mistrust of both the government and the
    media, we are appropriately stamped "looney tunes" and shuffled
    off to public opinion hell...

    The presence (or lack thereof) of BATF employees/families does not
    necessarily imply that they planted the bomb, but they may have
    had prior knowledge of the event and chose the political gains
    they will receive over the safety of civilians and other government
    workers. It is worth investigating if this occurred.

    One thing is certain, the enemies of the "right wingers" (who
    for the most part are more libertarian than right wing) are
    falling over themselves with glee, as they now have opportunity
    to do all the things we've been screaming about. And public
    opinion is now along for the ride.

    Be careful though, when they're done with our civil rights,
    the feds won't have anything left to "work on" but _yours_.

    -b

    RE: .308  
    
    > There are 2 sides to every story.  I would imagine if it is proven that
    > an American did it they were fed up with the feds and the gun goomers -
    > in their mind it is a tit-for-a-tat.  FREEDOM - is it worth fighting
    > for - even if you are fighting against your own?
    
    When bombs are set off with the idea of killing the maximum number
    of people, the bombs kill whomever happens to be around.  Anyone
    can die (including people who even AGREE with the politics of the
    bomber.)
    
    > Clinton proposes even tuffer laws to "prevent" this!  
    
    Do you think most Americans want to be killed by the next bomb
    that goes off (in case they accidently find themselves near a
    Federal building for some reason, even they just happen to be
    *walking past it*?)
    
    > Just wait for the next raid and their response.  Could this be the
    > start of a civil war? 
    
    A number of people in this country WANT to overthrow the government
    in a Civil War.  Now that we see how they aim to defend a guy who
    has been caught bombing innocent civilians (by claiming the Feds
    really did this thing), how much support do you think such extremists
    will get from the American people at large?  (Not much, I'll bet.)
    
    > How many freedoms can the government take away before everyone will
    > get fed up and join a miltia?  
    
    It's more likely that the people who can afford it will LEAVE this
    country (taking their money with them) before militia-related bombs 
    rip this country apart and put everyone left here in grave danger.  

  <<< Note 393.301 by RUSURE::MELVIN "Ten Zero, Eleven Zero Zero by Zero 2" >>>

> 'overzealous'? 'misjudged'?  Interesting words to deflect from the fact
> that children WERE killed at Waco.

No deflection, except in your mind.

> Well, the President and numerous other government officials have called
> the legal system 'corrupt'.  Do you believe them or not?

They don't have the same thing in mind that you do, however.

> Hate to tell you the obvious, but he was STILL center stage when the government
> chose to attack him (and his followers) resulting in the bloodshed.  The lens
> was still there when the government bulldozed just about any evidence about what
> went on.  If the 'lens' did not protect the entire compound, why should Karresh
> have believed it would protect him?

They had an excuse. Whether it was, as you surmise, a phoney one, is 
besides the point. There would be no excuse for mowing down surrendering 
people.

>Do you really think the Feds would open 
>fire on raised hands and white flags in front of CNN? 

> Perhaps that is why all non tactical people were kept a number of miles away
> from the site.  So they could NOT record what happened (or would happen).
> Oh yes, it was for their safety... Rigghhhht.  News people were allowed in
> Vietnam and Desert Stor.  Were those locations any 'safer' than Waco?

Balony. Every GD day we'd see the endless live shots of the compound. They 
may have been kept a distance away (under the very reasonable assumption 
that they could be in harm's way), but you've heard of telephoto lenses, 
haven't you?

> Well, so the govenment propaganda says. 

No. That's what Koresh said. Ah, but you've conveniently forgotten.

> Sorry, but it is the govenment who is to blame for the deaths.  I do not buy
> the 'well, you should have done what we told you to do' excuse for the
> attack.

Sorry, but that wasn't the excuse. Fear for the safety of the children was 
the stated excuse. IN any case, the fact is, these people refused to 
surrender to lawful agents of the government, which made them criminals -- 
regardless of whether they had a good case for harrassment or any other 
abuse of authority in the original raid. They could've had their chance to 
make their case in court, like any sensible criminal would've done. But 
they (or rather, mostly Koresh) decided to fight it out to the bitter end, 
because they weren't your average perps; they were nuts.

What happened to the innocent children (or any other innocents within) was 
tragic. And indeed the Feds must take some of the blame; Reno probably 
should have resigned. But by making Koresh your cause celeb, you are 
branding your cause as extremist and out of touch with reality - as it 
indeed is.

    RE: .311
    
    > The presence (or lack thereof) of BATF employees/families does not
    > necessarily imply that they planted the bomb, but they may have
    > had prior knowledge of the event and chose the political gains
    > they will receive over the safety of civilians and other government
    > workers. It is worth investigating if this occurred.
    
    The political gain would have been FAR BIGGER if they had been able
    to stop the bomb (or get everyone quietly out of the building before
    the blast occurred) to show how smart they are and how formidable
    they are in the face of domestic attack.
    
    As it happens, they looked helpless at first (which is not a favorable
    image.)
    
    If not for the quick capture of McVeigh (thanks to local police) and
    the communications between the FBI and the police which kept McVeigh
    from being released on bail from his traffic arrest, there would be
    little (or NO) political gain from any of this at all (for the Feds.)
    
    They couldn't bank on being able to catch this guy - it was almost
    by accident that they got the first guy, and they're still looking
    for the other bomb suspect.
    
    The smart political move (if the BATF knew about this bombing, and
    so far I've seen ZERO evidence that they were warned in any way
    whatsoever) would have been to stop it.

re: .300, Tom

>grapevine, the BATF stuff is not too uncommon. If true, we'd better do a
>thorough review of their practices (Senate hearings? according to one entry
>pulled off the Web, that supposedly happened, but I didn't see anything on
>it. Did you?) and prosecute offenders and fix the problems - even dismantle
>BATF, if that's appropriate.

Sounds like a good plan to me. And, no I didn't see anything along those
lines.

> (Of course, you NRA'ers would love that. You
>don't want *any* gummint involvement in arms.

Why should anyone want that? What's the benefit to be gained? At what
expense?

> An incident like OC, though,
>makes me glad we have legal reasons to keep an eye on gun wachos.)

Other than the weapon McVeigh had on him when apprehended, no guns were
involved, were there? You wanna have legal reasons to keep an eye on
fertilizer, too?

>hearings wouldn't satisfy the paranoid loonies here in the 'box or anyhwere
>else.

They'd satisfy me, to a degree, if they were above board.

> 'Cause in your minds, the whole legal system is corrupt. Government
>is corrupt.

It's like this. There are any number of reasons not to trust government
and very few to the contrary. I have to stop and ask, "What's government
ever done FOR me?" And, I'm left somewhat flat.

>  Every friggin thing's corrupt except your local gun club.

Sorry - I don't have one of those.

I can't help it, Tom. I just have this reflex action when I hear the
government say that they're going to "help".

    RE: .313  
    
    > Could it be that the answer to solving this spiral to civil war is 
    > that the government should follow its constitution and not deviate from 
    > it or amend its consitition legally?    Has government become too
    > powerful? 
    
    Do Americans typically respond to terrorism by vowing to give the
    terrorists what they want?
    
    If domestic terrorism becomes a big issue, Americans will empower
    the government to be even MORE powerful to stop it (just as some
    here would have wanted the American government to 'carpet bomb'
    entire cities in the middle East if they had been responsible for
    the bombing in Oklahoma City.)
    
    Terrorist bombs can kill anyone (regardless of their political
    beliefs.)  Americans would rather have a big government than
    the threat of right extremist bombs going off all over their
    own cities.  Mark my words.

    it shou.d be pointed out that the weapon used in OKC is one frequently
    used by people in countries where gun ownership is limited by law.  I
    wonder how popular a 7-14 day waiting period on fuel-oil will be when
    next winter hits.  (Or maybe we can go for an insta-check. ala
    colorado.) 
    
    meg

re: .314, Tom

> But by making Koresh your cause celeb, you are 
> branding your cause as extremist and out of touch with reality - as it 
> indeed is.

I don't think anyone is trying to make Koresh their cause celeb. To the
contrary, I think you'll find that most people opposed to what happened
at Waco fully agree that Koresh was a splinter group loonie from the word
go. But Koresh's status doesn't make what Reno and her rangers did right.
HE was a nutcase and THEY shouldn't have handled it as they did. There's
no mutual exclusivity there. I personally wouldn't likely have given
Koresh the time of day. But that sure as hell doesn't mean that I think
he got what he deserved.

>    The political gain would have been FAR BIGGER if they had been able
>    to stop the bomb (or get everyone quietly out of the building before
>    the blast occurred) to show how smart they are and how formidable
>    they are in the face of domestic attack.

I strongly disagree. As you yourself state in another reply, the fact
of the disaster will be a far more effective rallying force than if
no such disaster had taken place.

    re. 319
    
    Bennett,
    
    Virtually everyone of your replies is a list of questions.  Why don't
    you try answering them.  I will give you one:
    
    Name one right, specifically spelled out in the Constitution, that the
    federal government has taken away from you?  Please specify the right
    in detail and exactly what the government did to take it away from you. 

>They had an excuse. 

Oh, well that makes it alright.

>besides the point. There would be no excuse for mowing down surrendering 
>people.

IS there a reason to mow down people who are not surrendering and are not a
threat?

>Balony. Every GD day we'd see the endless live shots of the compound. They 
>may have been kept a distance away (under the very reasonable assumption 
>that they could be in harm's way), but you've heard of telephoto lenses, 
>haven't you?

So, was there a person shot and killed while trying to get INTO the compound?
Did it show up on tape?  Perhaps a clear view was not available for all angles
into the compound.  

>Sorry, but that wasn't the excuse. Fear for the safety of the children was 
>the stated excuse. 

So, we fear that you are (or might) abusing your kids so to prevent it we 
will drive this military hardware, using gas, into/onto/through/over 
everything you own (including yourselves).  APparently a new definition of
"safety".

>IN any case, the fact is, these people refused to 
>surrender to lawful agents of the government, which made them criminals -- 

And still subject to due process, wouldn't you agree?  Or should the death
penalty be invoked immediately?

>abuse of authority in the original raid. They could've had their chance to 
>make their case in court, like any sensible criminal would've done. 

Sure sounds like the 'but you should have done what we ordered you to" excuse
I mentioned.  Wouldn't you agree?

>What happened to the innocent children (or any other innocents within) was 
>tragic. And indeed the Feds must take some of the blame; 

The Feds should take MOST of the blame.  Of course, we did not hear Clinton
on TV talking about children being killed etc as he has been doing for this
bombing.

>But by making Koresh your cause celeb, you are 
>branding your cause as extremist and out of touch with reality - as it 
>indeed is.

In your opinion.  A number of children (and adults) were killed at Waco.
Government forces and equipment were used to do this.  Do you deny this?
Was the death that occurred proportionate to the supposed 'crime'?  Was the
use of the equipment and force (from the very beginning) proportionate to
the supposed 'crime'?

    RE: .320 
    
    > political move and BATF in the same sentence - you don't get it do you?
    
    Oh, but I do.
    
    > Could these BATF cronies be the same zealots who will eventually 
    > violate your rights to bear arms ?
    
    The BATF looks a lot less dangerous than those who fight against them,
    though (honest to God) and I am a member of the NRA.
    
    > this shows that the government fails to understand that there is a 
    > group of people in this country feed up with voting (could they think 
    > it does no good anyway) and WOULD RATHER MAKE THERE IDEAS MADE USING 
    > OTHER METHODS?
                                                                  
    This country does NOT give in to terrorism (even when it comes from
    within.)
    
    Do you think the American Revolutionaries (in the 1700s) killed
    British babies and young children to make a point???  If they had,
    would we have the United States of America today?

    RE: .321
    
    >> The political gain would have been FAR BIGGER if they had been able
    >> to stop the bomb (or get everyone quietly out of the building before
    >> the blast occurred) to show how smart they are and how formidable
    >> they are in the face of domestic attack.

    > I strongly disagree. As you yourself state in another reply, the fact
    > of the disaster will be a far more effective rallying force than if
    > no such disaster had taken place.
    
    As I stated in another reply, the Feds gained a lot of ground by
    being able to get one of those responsible in custody and arraigned
    as quickly as they did.  They couldn't COUNT on being able to do
    this.
    
    If we didn't have a person in custody right now, we'd probably still
    be looking at the middle East for suspects (which would mean NO
    political gain for the Feds and would even mean a LOSS of stature
    to the American people for not being able to protect us from terrorism
    in the first place and for not being able to catch those who did it.)

    RE:  .326
    
    >> This country does NOT give in to terrorism (even when it comes from
    >> within.)
    
    > EXACTLY - it could do a better job of listening to its citizens
    > too could it? 
    
    Right wing terrorism will only make it more difficult to listen to
    the views you would most like the government to hear.

>    As I stated in another reply, the Feds gained a lot of ground by
>    being able to get one of those responsible in custody and arraigned
>    as quickly as they did.  They couldn't COUNT on being able to do
>    this.
>    
>    If we didn't have a person in custody right now, we'd probably still
>    be looking at the middle East for suspects (which would mean NO
>    political gain for the Feds and would even mean a LOSS of stature
>    to the American people for not being able to protect us from terrorism
>    in the first place and for not being able to catch those who did it.)

This would presume that the Feds' stature now is higher in the eyes of the
average American than it would be if they didn't have McVeigh in custody
and were still speculating as to the perp. You can draw that conclusion
if you like, but I don't see it that way. If the American people are
incensed about what happened, then they were incensed before McVeigh's
capture (which, of course they were) and they would still be incensed
if he was at large. Stature of the Feds or lack thereof notwithstanding.
The issue around political gain has to do with the fact that the people
of the country are worked into a frenzy over this, and are thirsty for
blood of the perp at this point. A disaster prevented would not have
resulted in that same degree of fervor.

        Blaming the "right" for the OKC bombing is equvalent to blaming the
        "left" for the Riots in Newark, Detroit, Chicago, New York, Watts,
        LA, etc.  Indeed the left was blamed for these things by the right,
        but that does not make the blame game valid.  The left was also
        identified with the Weather underground, the Symbionese Liberation
        Army, and other mad bombers, bank robbers, murderers, seditionists,
        traitors, and terrorists of the 60s and 70s.  How does the behavior
        of these terrorist loons negate the validity of the rights of the
        representatives of the left to voice their opinions?  This they
        continued to do, even to this day, without anyone muzzling them,
        though attempts at government control were certainly made.  These
        attempts were unconstitutional!  They still are!

        The crux is not left vs. right.  The crux is collectivism vs.
        individualism, totalitarianism vs. anarchy.  Our nation's founders
        struck a remarkable, even miraculous, balance between these issues
        in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.  I'm willing to venture
        that many of those promoting Constitutional issues today are
        exactly the same as those questioning the Constituitionality of an
        undeclared war and fighting racism in the 60s and 70s.  Because
        they have shed their collectivist leanings, they now are identified
        with the right.  They are tarred with a broad brush as racists and
	nazis.  They are blamed for cross-burnings, abortion clinic
	shootings, mad bombings, and terrorism in general.

        It is amazing how freely the press interchanges and enphrases the
        words "extremist", "separatist", "supremacist", "militia",
        "patriot", "gun rights activist".  I have observed much more hate 
        coming from the so-called liberals using these terms with great
        venom and vituperation, often compounded with "hate-monger", than I
        have ever seen from any so-called patriot group. There is every bit
        as much hate-mongering by self-proclaimed liberals as by the most
	extreme of the so-called right-wing fringe.

	Remember, it is so much easier to cede a precious right to the
	government than it is to get it back.  Guard *ALL* of the Bill of
	Rights jealously.  Do not subject such timeless jewels to the whims
	of any agency, bureaucracy, or branch of government.

	Peace,
		TonyC	

    The liberal feeding frenzy going on in the government, the media,
    and even here in the box, would be hilarious if it weren't so scary.
    
    Anarchists are not necessarily "right wing", but do keep saying
    it, because it so obviously fills some of you with glee, and it's
    become entertaining for some of us.
    
    A few nights ago, when the media was showing the police sketches
    of the suspects, they made sure to say the words "white men" so
    many times that after a while it actually made me laugh.  I lost
    count...
    
    Same thing going on now, with "right wing".  I haven't seen anything
    like this since the last shark special on the Discovery channel.
    
    Chris

    RE: .329
    
    > The issue around political gain has to do with the fact that the people
    > of the country are worked into a frenzy over this, and are thirsty for
    > blood of the perp at this point. A disaster prevented would not have
    > resulted in that same degree of fervor.
    
    Before the perp was announced as being in custody, people didn't know
    where to aim their anger.  Some of it went towards the middle East
    (and the Feds make NO political gains if they are attacked by the
    middle East and can't catch those responsible.)
    
    The 'political gain' is that we KNOW this attack came from an anti-
    government faction of our own country and the American people want
    the Federal government to do something about it (which goes against
    the very views that the anti-government extremists were trying to
    illuminate with the bombing.)
    
    If we still didn't know who had done this (or if we'd found out a
    few years later), the Feds would have nothing whatsoever to gain
    from this.
    
    If they'd known about it before hand, they could NOT be assured
    that they would capture one of these guys almost immediately
    (as it happens, they wouldn't have any of the bombers at all if
    not for a lucky break from the local police.)
    
    The right wing extremist bombers damaged their own cause.

    
    
      Please Bill!!!! Protect me from myself!!!!!

>    If we still didn't know who had done this (or if we'd found out a
>    few years later), the Feds would have nothing whatsoever to gain
>    from this.

I still disagree. Orwell did, too.

    RE: .330
    
    > Please don't understand me, I don't believe in alot of what is going
    > on but with everything try to understand where and what is going on
    > from the inability of the government to understand to the militia 's
    > and their general discussed with government would help everyone.
    
    The militias are not helping themselves at all with the American
    people (if the notes in this topic are any indication of their
    attitudes after all this.)  If they don't have the support of the
    American people, they are just dangerous (and not a revolution.)
    
    > What may happen is a deeper void with more senseless killings and
    > more restrictions on the public.
    
    Americans prefer big government to the prospect of bombs going off
    all over our cities.  If you want to push bigger government ONTO us
    by threatening to stop our government by force (in situations where 
    Americans KNOW they *can and will* get killed with abandon), cheer 
    for more of this terrrorism and you will see it happen.

.>Balony. Every GD day we'd see the endless live shots of the compound. They 
.>may have been kept a distance away (under the very reasonable assumption 
.>that they could be in harm's way), but you've heard of telephoto lenses, 
.>haven't you?

Excuse me, but as I recall, the press was highly restricted and many of
the tapes made before the controls were put in place were confiscated by the 
BATF as evidence (of what?) and the tapes of the most important events
we were allowed to see were doctored.

If the BATF had nothing to hide, they would have allowed the unaltered 
tapes to be aired.

We did not get an accurate picture of what happened in Waco. The press wasn't
allowed to do their job.

Doug.

                     <<< Note 393.229 by SX4GTO::WANNOOR >>>

>    re -223? O'kelley
>   
>   	why should they? We've been crying all along that this is
>   	a FREE country right? Any nut doing any nutty thing is
>   	perfectly alright, after all we cannot be that intolerant
>   	and snoopy, right?

No one has advocated that "any nut doing any nutty thing" is OK.
Murder is still murder.  

    
>   	Maybe the JD ought to publish a list of "terrorist activities":
>       making a bomb, buying/storing a combination of chemical x,y,z,
>   	etc???

There probably already is.  Maybe for starters we need to license the 
buying, selling, and leasing of large trucks.  Rental trucks were used in 
the OKC and NYC bombings.

    Cheer? Who's cheering. The media told you some people in some
    nefarious militia cheered somewhere... maybe they did. Maybe
    the media has footage from the last Michigan State football
    game. Who the hell knows? No one in here is cheering, and
    in case you didn't notice there are a few who might be fall
    in the right wing/militant groups...

    You're saying exactly the things we've been warning about...
    that the government, in the name of "public good", may run
    roughshod over your civil rights and you claim most of the
    country will applaud this! You say, frankly, as if _you_
    agree with it? Which one or more of your civil rights are
    you willing to give up?

    Are you, for instance, willing to have the government track
    _every_ transaction? Are you willing to register with the
    government as you travel about the country? Are you willing
    to place transmitters in vehicles so they can keep track
    of where everyone is? Are you willing to _pay_ for all this
    additional surveillance? Because, if you're not, then stop
    sounding so damn glib about the defeat of the right wing,
    because these are exactly the types of measures that have
    and will be considered.

    The people who did this are total scum. They most certainly
    should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and
    since the death penalty is applicable, it most definitely
    should be applied. I know this may be difficult for some of
    you to grasp, but the entire right wing is not throwing a
    party and laughing as they carry dead babies out of the
    rubble.,,

    -b

    
    if you seriously belive in ATF/FBI innocence, consider this.
    we have had two major terrorist bombing so far, wtc and okc.
    in the case of wtc, the blind sheikh, the force behind the
    bombing was allowed into the country by cia and state. he was
    a known terrorist and fbi moles participated in hatching the
    plot to bomb wtc and holland tunnel. that bombing was not
    stopped before it happened as there would be no trial and no 
    glory without a crime.
    
    clinton is being a big hypocrite about terrorism. just the other
    day it was revealed by no less than secretary of state that 
    Saudi arabia refused to allow US Govenment to capture a known
    Pan Am bombing terrorist in Saudi Arabia. and our government wanted 
    to sacrifice american lives to protect those feudal despots from 
    saddam hussain. go figure.
    

        Interesting.  I've just read a preliminary (UNVERIFIED!) report
        that  examination  of  debris  from  the    building  indicates
        "military grade explosive" traces, and not fertiliser/fuel oil.
        
        Andy
        

    
    <----------------
    

    So, Andy, if it turns out that Timothy McVeigh used military-grade
    explosives instead of fertilizer in his bomb, should the FBI let
    him go or what?

   >There probably already is.  Maybe for starters we need to license the 
   >buying, selling, and leasing of large trucks.  Rental trucks were used in 
   >the OKC and NYC bombings.
    
    'scuse me! Yeah, I want to go beg the feds for a special license
    next time I need to move some furniture or get my band's gear
    to a gid. Hey, the dems should love this. I won't be able to
    get a truck, so I'll have to go to some moving company and
    pay their grunts the inflated labor rate. Yeah, that's the
    ticket. DEMocracy in action!
    
    -b

    
    
    The FBI should hunt for the truth in this matter and nothing else...
    
    
    I would be interested to see the follow-up re: what some of the news
    people are looking into...
    

    <<< Note 393.318 by CSC32::M_EVANS "proud counter-culture McGovernik" >>>

>   it shou.d be pointed out that the weapon used in OKC is one frequently
>   used by people in countries where gun ownership is limited by law.  I
>   wonder how popular a 7-14 day waiting period on fuel-oil will be when
>   next winter hits.  (Or maybe we can go for an insta-check. ala
>   colorado.) 

On a similar note, we've now had two bombings involving rented trucks.
How about an instant check system for the buying, selling, and leasing of
"deadly assault trucks", capable of carrying hundreds of pounds of explosive
at one time!

    Even if it was military grade, C4, semtex, whatever it does not
    guarantee government complicity.  An embarrasingly large amount of
    munitions are "lost" every year through paperwork glitches, supply
    clerks on the take, hijackings etc.  
    
    Personally, I am of the opinion that this was not a shadowy government
    or rogue department's act.  At least I am hoping this is not the case. 
    I would not wish to trade one form of tyranny for another and certainly
    do not want to see the country violently divided. 
    
    Brian

    
    I know I'm going to catch major grief for this, but I happen to think
    President Clinton has responded and done a very good job, regarding the
    handeling of this bombing. Also, please note I am a republican, who
    still thinks B.C. handeled this as best he could. 
    
    Mark

    RE: .341
    
    > Cheer? Who's cheering. 
    
    It certainly sounds like terrorism is being 'cheered on' when some
    folks here suggest that we'll see a lot more 'senseless deaths'
    if the government doesn't start 'listening', or whatever.
    
    > No one in here is cheering, and
    > in case you didn't notice there are a few who might be fall
    > in the right wing/militant groups...
                              
    How could anyone fail to notice this?  :/
    
    > You're saying exactly the things we've been warning about...
    > that the government, in the name of "public good", may run
    > roughshod over your civil rights and you claim most of the
    > country will applaud this! 
    
    If this country has to choose between big government and bombs
    going off all over our cities, the American people will most
    likely choose big government.  Without the support of the 
    American people, the militia won't have its 'revolution'.
    
    If American Revolutionaries had blown up Americans and their
    children (not to mention British children) to start the 
    Revolutionary War, we wouldn't have had a revolution (or a 
    country later.)
    
    > You say, frankly, as if _you_
    > agree with it? Which one or more of your civil rights are
    > you willing to give up?
    
    If I ever face the prospect of living in a war torn U.S.A. 
    due to Civil War II (started by militias), ask me then.
    
    > I know this may be difficult for some of
    > you to grasp, but the entire right wing is not throwing a
    > party and laughing as they carry dead babies out of the
    > rubble.,,          
    
    Some of the right wing seems to be defending the scum who did
    it, though, by claiming a Federal government conspiracy (which
    would certainly let this guy off the hook.)
    
    Will we see more bombs on the anniversary of his execution?

    
    re: .353
    
    
    >Much of the right wing seems to be defending the scum who did
    
    
    What Looney-tune cartoon are you watching???
    
    
    Sheeeeeeeeeesh!! you're just as bad a "fringe" as the other side!!!
    

    
    re: .353
    
    I noticed you changed the "much" to "some" real quick like....
    

        Methinks that (some) folk read too much into the mention of the
        unverified  report  that    c4/Semtex/whatever  plastique  were
        supposedly evident in intial  samples  -  what's interesting is
        the heavy emphasis on "readily available fertiliser-based bomb"
        as reported from the beginning.
        
        Andy
        

    The 'some right' who are defending this McVeigh guy are not saying
    he SHOULD have done it, but rather than the 'evil government' did it
    instead (which would certainly let him off the hook, which does
    qualify as a 'defense' of McVeigh.)
    
    Meanwhile, I'd still like to know - will we have more bombs going
    off to kill innocent civilians and children in this country on the
    anniversary of McVeigh's execution?

    re: .336
    
    The government cannot stop bombings, so I fail to see your point.
    
    This is a smokescreen to enact things they otherwise would have been
    unable to enact.  Whether rogue government agencies planned this or
    whether the feds are just taking advantage of a tragic bombing by a
    looney, makes no difference to the end result.
    
    My previous notes just bring up possibilities that the media will never
    voice.
    
    We've tried to stop bank robberies since the first bank opened its
    doors, and as of yet, no luck.  Why do you think that the government
    can stop terrorism of this sort?
    
    
    -steve

>When was the last time you heard a congressman say  " I did a pole in my
>state and

Actually, that's become more prevalent ever since they closed the House
Bank and prevented them from passing czechs.



(Sorry - I couldn't resist. :^)

        <<< Note 393.317 by BSS::S_CONLON "A Season of Carnelians..." >>>
       -< Americans will prefer government over more bombings like OKC. >-

>   Do Americans typically respond to terrorism by vowing to give the
>   terrorists what they want?
 
Americans have very little experience with this sort of thing, so it's 
difficult to say what is "typical".

   
>   If domestic terrorism becomes a big issue, Americans will empower
>   the government to be even MORE powerful to stop it (just as some
>   here would have wanted the American government to 'carpet bomb'
>   entire cities in the middle East if they had been responsible for
>   the bombing in Oklahoma City.)

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that you are correct.  The majority will cry out
for their government to protect them.  Later on they will discover:

    1.  It can't be done.  Europe has police departments that have higher 
        arrest and conviction records, and they still have terrorist attacks.
        Terrorist groups are very difficult to infiltrate, so it's hard to 
        "prevent" these crimes.  And finally, you cannot stop someone who 
        is willing to die for what they believe in through a legal system.
        We have had two bombings, and I believe that we will catch the 
        people responsible for this crime as we did for the World Trade 
        Center bombing.  However, even as we put them away, there will be 
        more people to take their place.
    2.  100% security is an illusion.  We have not had terrorist attacks 
        in the past mostly because we've been lucky.  The Genie is out of 
        the bottle.  Everyone now knows that it can be done.
    3.  The cure is worse than the disease.  The amount of damage that 
        terrorists can inflict is minimal compared to what an omnipotent
        Federal government can do.  Terrorist kill hundreds; governments
        kill millions.

    
>   Terrorist bombs can kill anyone (regardless of their political
>   beliefs.)  Americans would rather have a big government than
>   the threat of right extremist bombs going off all over their
>   own cities.  Mark my words.

Yes, I'm afraid that you are probably right.  In the hysteria that follows,
Americans will run to Big Brother to protect them, and he will -- for a price.

For myself, I would much rather live in a free society and take my chances.

re:332, et al

Submitted for your approval:

	I happened to be in Washington D.C./Maryland last week when, just the
week before I had reliquished my hard-earned dollars to Uncle, and wasn't
feeling too happy about it. Such are the ironies of life, eh?

	I was sitting in a coffee shop in Silver Springs the morning after the
bombing incident and couldn't help over-hearing the conversation of two elderly
men (especially since one of them almost began shouting) when it was still
believed that the perpetrators were of Middle-Eastern origin. Or as the one
pontificating sneeringly amended 'well they were dark-skinned anyway'. After
which he declared piously that the death penalty should be effected.

	(I won't even get into a little incident later on near the white house,
where I thought I'd be reenacting the civil rights marcher/dog encounter).

	This little tableau set me up for a repeat of all previous horror
scripts where the evyl black myn (to borrow and slightly modify a favorite
phrase here) would be the target from everything from police sweeps to further
justifications of policy modification extrapolating from everything from "The
Bell Curve" to the Moynihan Report.

	And Lo and Behold, this time it wasn't an "obvious" member of the 
"underclass". The suspect was a "nice looking boy".

	So, while it may seem trite and petty to you, from _my_ perspective
I think it's important for people to see that wanton viciousness comes in
all colors, and there is nothing but a persons' soul that gives them any
"advantages" as a human being.

	As to your observations of repetition, as well as some others about
being ignored/screwed in the 'rights' category...well now I guess you know
how it feels.

	One other thing about this incident that didn't escape my
attention...the bomb certainly was color-blind.

        <<< Note 393.316 by MOLAR::DELBALSO "I (spade) my (dogface)" >>>


>> An incident like OC, though,
>>makes me glad we have legal reasons to keep an eye on gun wachos.)

>Other than the weapon McVeigh had on him when apprehended, no guns were
>involved, were there? You wanna have legal reasons to keep an eye on
>fertilizer, too?

That's nonsense, and you know it, Jack. What he used is beside the point. 
It was the "cause" that drove his addled brain (and those of his 
co-conspirators - assumming he's guilty and he had help, of course) that
matters, and he apparently saw a conspiracy of the government to disarm all
citizens - among other evils, I suppose. It was timed to coincide with the
anniversary of the Waco debacle, after all. 

>>hearings wouldn't satisfy the paranoid loonies here in the 'box or anyhwere
>>else.

> They'd satisfy me, to a degree, if they were above board.

Glad to here it. Judging from your response, you may not qualify as a 
paranoid loony :-). Although the "if they were above board" caveat leaves a 
lot of possible doors open.

>It's like this. There are any number of reasons not to trust government
>and very few to the contrary. I have to stop and ask, "What's government
>Ever done FOR me?" And, I'm left somewhat flat.

Here's where we part in fundamental ways. I see it as just the opposite. 
Sure, there are reasons to distrust agencies and individuals in government 
to some extent, because power is always tempting for some to abuse. But I 
have not seen evidence that it's a rampant problem, and I have one very 
good reason to trust them more than I fear them: they work for me. I can 
fire them with the vote.

What have they "done" for me? Well, I get to lead a pretty free life. I can 
go pretty much as far as my ambition and energy will take me. They've kept 
us from being invaded. They've stopped God knows how many other OTCs and 
OKCs from happening.

Wherever there's power, be it political or economical, you have to keep a 
watchful eye. But there's a big difference between a healthy sceptical eye 
and staring at something 'til you start to halucinate (I did that enough in 
the 60s to know :-))

> I can't help it, Tom. I just have this reflex action when I hear the
> government say that they're going to "help".

And I can't help it, Jack. I just have this knee-jerk reaction to grand 
conspiracies.

    
    	Is there a recent death toll, or more info as to suspects?
    
    	And was it proven that McVeigh actually planted the truck at
    	the building, or did he just rent it?
    

    re: .353
    
    Once again, your choices of "big government or bombs" is ludicrous. 
    
    As far as terrorism being "cheered on" when folks suggest that more
    deaths will result if government doesn't quit running roughshod over
    our rights; you are reading your own slant into this.  No one is
    cheering, no one is laughing.  This is deadly serious.  The fact that
    when the people are pushed past a certain point, the natural reaction
    is to push back.  The looneys don't care who they hurt to make a point.
    
    And let's quit paralleling the anarchist bombers with the right wing. 
    This is a specious association at best, and a purposely slanted
    hate-tactic at worst.
    
    
    -steve               

    RE: .360  Kevin
    
    The government can't stop ALL the bombings, but the American people
    will expect them to go after the 'extreme right wing' movement
    (and their rhetoric) to do something (anything they can) about the
    bombings.
    
    We'll have bigger government thanks to the activism of those who
    want anything BUT bigger government.
    
    > 3.  The cure is worse than the disease.  The amount of damage that 
    >     terrorists can inflict is minimal compared to what an omnipotent
    >     Federal government can do.  Terrorist kill hundreds; governments
    >     kill millions.
    
    You won't convince the American people that the BATF and the FBI
    are going to kill millions in this country.  The American people
    already KNOW that some folks are willing to kill hundreds of
    AMERICAN PEOPLE to get back at the BATF.  (The disease sounds a 
    LOT more dangerous than the 'cure' in this case.)
    
    > For myself, I would much rather live in a free society and take my 
    > chances.
    
    We aren't free if right wing terrorists are going to bomb and kill
    American citizens (civilians, including children) indiscriminately 
    in our cities.  We'd be in a state of war and the American people
    would want a 'world class superpower' to fight an enemy who would
    do this to us.

re: .362, Tom

>And I can't help it, Jack. I just have this knee-jerk reaction to grand 
>conspiracies.

Don't get me wrong, Tom. I'm not buying the "grand conspiracy" theory
in this - I think I've as much as said so in other replies. What bothers
me more than the "grand conspiracy" theory in this is the fact that
the government is in a perfect position to grandstand, capitalize,
take advantage of, and otherwise make hay in terms of further eroding
rights as a result of this mess. And I can already see the evidence
that they/some are intent upon so doing.

    RE: .365  Steve Leech
    
    > Once again, your choices of "big government or bombs" is ludicrous. 
    
    Hey, I thought I'd made up the idea that some of these groups were
    calling for Civil War II, but I'd hate to tell you how many times
    I've heard people say this week that we may INDEED be looking at a
    Civil War in this country.
    
    If it comes to that, most Americans will want a world-class
    superpower on *their* side (because a big government is not
    nearly as scary as those who are currently proposing violence
    to fight big government.)

re: .361
    
>> 	So, while it may seem trite and petty to you, from _my_ perspective
>> I think it's important for people to see that wanton viciousness comes in
>> all colors, and there is nothing but a persons' soul that gives them any
>> "advantages" as a human being.
    
    You state the obvious.  It's obvious to me, anyway.  It was, in fact,
    obvious to me more than thirty years ago, as soon as I was old enough
    to even be aware of such things.  I don't believe I said anything to
    indicate otherwise.  If I did, feel free to point out specific
    occurrences.
    

>> 	As to your observations of repetition, as well as some others about
>> being ignored/screwed in the 'rights' category...well now I guess you know
>> how it feels.

    It's somewhat presumptuous of you to assume that I don't, in fact,
    already "know how it feels".  I do.  Regardless, what satisfaction
    is to be gained from my knowing how it feels, since I've never oppressed
    anyone to begin with?  It's not like it's payback or anything.
    
    Having the "other side" "know how it feels now" is the mentality that
    generated this tragedy in the first place.  We should endeavor to
    avoid such tempting retribution.
    
    Chris

    
    
>It was the "cause" that drove his addled brain (and those of his 
>co-conspirators - assumming he's guilty and he had help, of course) that
>matters, 
>and he apparently saw a conspiracy of the government to disarm all
>citizens - among other evils, I suppose. It was timed to coincide with the
>anniversary of the Waco debacle, after all. 
    
    	tried and convicted him already have you? Funny, I don't remember
    seeing this trial on after OJ.
    
    	I love how all you folk have jumped aboard the militia beating
    bandwagon. There's been no trial, they have a "suspect" in custody, all
    the militias interviewed have condemned the action (except one where a 
    couple of idjits may have cheered, I haven't seen the footage), yet all you
    righteous folks are slamming the militias. 
    
    	and you have the audacity to call gun owners reactionary!
    
    
    jim

re: .366, Suzanne

>    The government can't stop ALL the bombings, but the American people
>    will expect them to go after the 'extreme right wing' movement
>    (and their rhetoric) to do something (anything they can) about the
>    bombings.

Some American people may expect that, but not all. I sure as hell don't want
to necessarily see that as a mindless be-all/end-all "solution". I don't
even think that "the majority" of the American people want to see that.
(I'm speaking specifically about an all-out surpression of the extreme
right wing, not discrete activities to thwart actual bombings.)
Of course, minor details like the desire of the majority has never tended
to stop the government in the past, as witness the Crime Bill . . . 

It's the responsibility of the American people to make it perfectly clear
to their representative in Congress what it is that they DO want the
government to do about this, as well as what they DON'T want them to do.
And then, as always, and as last November, it's their responsibility
to express the level of their satisfaction at the polls.

    
    The defense lawyers for McVeigh are filing a motion for a change
    of venue from OC.
    
    The defense lawyers for MCVeigh are asking to be taken off the case,
    since they know too many killed or injured.
    
    
    
    

    RE: .374
    
    >> The government can't stop ALL the bombings, but the American people
    >> will expect them to go after the 'extreme right wing' movement
    >> (and their rhetoric) to do something (anything they can) about the
    >> bombings.
    
    > Some American people may expect that, but not all. I sure as hell 
    > don't want to necessarily see that as a mindless be-all/end-all 
    > "solution". I don't even think that "the majority" of the American 
    > people want to see that.  (I'm speaking specifically about an all-out 
    > surpression of the extreme right wing, not discrete activities to 
    > thwart actual bombings.)
    
    Agreed, not all people will want this.
    
    The American people will want the federal government to do SOMETHING,
    though, just as the people want the federal government to provide
    aid after hurricanes, tornados, massive forest fires and other types
    of disasters.
    
    Those who want LESS federal government should be doing everything in
    their power to REFRAIN from giving the American people the impression
    that they are prepared to wreak the havoc of another disaster on this
    land (because most Americans *will* want their own world-class
    superpower to do something about it.)

Note 393.370 by BSS::S_CONLON "A Season of Carnelians..."    
    
       
>    Hey, I thought I'd made up the idea that some of these groups were
>    calling for Civil War II, but I'd hate to tell you how many times
>    I've heard people say this week that we may INDEED be looking at a
>    Civil War in this country.
 
    There may be groups that say it may have to come down to Civil War II,
    but I don't hear anyone CALLING for it.  
       
>    If it comes to that, most Americans will want a world-class
>    superpower on *their* side (because a big government is not
>    nearly as scary as those who are currently proposing violence
>    to fight big government.)
    
    Your use of "Americans" is confusing.  Civil War II would be Americans
    v. Americans at its root, though in effect it would be
    Consitutionalists against a federal government tyranny.  Americans
    would split on who to follow.  Those who want big government to control
    their lives will follow the feds, the rest will be labelled as traitors
    and terrorists.  
    
    FWIW, if it came down to the Constitution vs. despotic big government, I 
    chose the Constitution.  I fear tyranny far more than I do men willing
    to fight and die for their freedom.
    
    
    
    -steve

        <<< Note 393.366 by BSS::S_CONLON "A Season of Carnelians..." >>>

>   The government can't stop ALL the bombings, but the American people
>   will expect them to go after the 'extreme right wing' movement
>   (and their rhetoric) to do something (anything they can) about the
>   bombings.

RE: the right wing and their rhetoric

Hmmmmm...  This sounds like censorship.
So much for the First Amendment.  Of course, you might ask yourself:
    1.  How much censorship is going to stop the bombings?
    2.  If militias are using the Internet heavily, is this the Fed's big
        chance to control the InfoBahn?
    3.  How right wing do we go?  Do we force G. Gordon Liddy off the air?


RE: anything they can

Given our Federal government's stupidity and incompetence, "anything they
can" will be precious little at too high a price.


>   We'll have bigger government thanks to the activism of those who
>   want anything BUT bigger government.

Yes, I'm afraid you are right.  That's the irony of it.
    

>   You won't convince the American people that the BATF and the FBI
>   are going to kill millions in this country.  The American people
>   already KNOW that some folks are willing to kill hundreds of
>   AMERICAN PEOPLE to get back at the BATF.  (The disease sounds a 
>   LOT more dangerous than the 'cure' in this case.)
 
Oh, I doubt that the FBI and BATF and DEA and CIA and NSA could do that.
They're not that good.  But when Big Brother suspends Constitutional rights
in the name protecting society, they will proceed to manipulate public 
opinion.  Those in power will be able to commit terrible crimes against 
humanity without fear of retribution.

   
>   > For myself, I would much rather live in a free society and take my 
>   > chances.
>   
>   We aren't free if right wing terrorists are going to bomb and kill
>   American citizens (civilians, including children) indiscriminately 
>   in our cities.  We'd be in a state of war and the American people
>   would want a 'world class superpower' to fight an enemy who would
>   do this to us.

I disagree.  Even if terrorist bombings were much more common, our society
can remain free.  If we maintain our standards of constitutional law, we 
can remain a free society.  If we refuse to give into terrorist demands, 
they have nothing to gain.  Besides, they cannot take away what we are,
unless we let them.  Someone once said, "A country is not a rock.  A country
is what it stands for when standing for something is hard."

If these bombings continue, then innocent people will die.  All of us may be
at risk.  Isn't our personal freedom worth that risk?  How much have people
been willing to risk to get to this country?

Will we want a "world class superpower"?  No, we need a world class police
force, and that is something that the United States doesn't have.  We can
easily build a world class police state, but that won't solve the problem.

re: .375, Dave

>    The defense lawyers for MCVeigh are asking to be taken off the case,
>    since they know too many killed or injured.

George and Patty may be interested in the case . . . 

re:371   

> Having the "other side" "know how it feels now" is the mentality that
>generated this tragedy in the first place.  We should endeavor to
>avoid such tempting retribution.

Now, you state the obvious.

I've never endorsed harming innocents for retribution, real or perceived.
  

    I doubt she's certified to practice in Oklahoma, unless there's some
    kind of reciprocity with Massachusetts (which I'm inclined to doubt).

Yeah - you're prolly right, Chels . . .

    RE: .377  Steve Leech
    
    > There may be groups that say it may have to come down to Civil War II,
    > but I don't hear anyone CALLING for it.  
    
    Well, I have (go back to the internet posting put into this topic last
    night - didn't it mention something about marching on Washington with
    guns?)  This was not a derogatory article ABOUT militias, but an
    anti-government article in favor of militias, not so?
    
    > Your use of "Americans" is confusing.  Civil War II would be Americans
    > v. Americans at its root, though in effect it would be
    > Consitutionalists against a federal government tyranny.  Americans
    > would split on who to follow.  Those who want big government to control
    > their lives will follow the feds, the rest will be labelled as traitors
    > and terrorists.  
    
    Don't kid yourself - it won't be much of a split.  Even if we have
    100,000 armed people in militias in this country (and I don't think
    it's this high, but who knows) - we have over 250,000,000 people in
    this country and I don't personally think that most of our 250 mil.
    are in the mood to see this country become Bosnia, do you??
    
    How long has it been since we've fought a lengthy Civil War in this
    country (and what was the cost of this war last time???)  Do you
    honestly think the people of this country want to stand by as
    millions of us die on our own soil (in an ideological conflict
    about the Republican party versus the Democrat party?)
    
    Do you think most people believe things are bad enough in this country
    to warrant watching their children die over a political belief?
    
    > FWIW, if it came down to the Constitution vs. despotic big government, I 
    > chose the Constitution.  I fear tyranny far more than I do men willing
    > to fight and die for their freedom.
    
    If it comes down to a group of people trying to overthrow the U.S.
    government, the American people will want the government to use their
    superpower muscle to stop it (and real fast.)

    RE: .378  Kevin
    
    > If these bombings continue, then innocent people will die.  All of us 
    > may be at risk.  Isn't our personal freedom worth that risk?  How much 
    > have people been willing to risk to get to this country?

    The American people will hand over a number of personal freedoms to
    give the government an edge over those who would threaten this
    country with more bombings.  And I know you know this (whether you
    agree with it or not!)
    
    > Will we want a "world class superpower"?  No, we need a world class 
    > police force, and that is something that the United States doesn't 
    > have.  We can easily build a world class police state, but that won't 
    > solve the problem.
    
    The extreme right could push us in that direction if they threaten
    terrorism here to get their way.

    
    RE: S_CONLON
    
    Just for the record, what's your position concerning the government state 
    terrorism at Waco?
    
    I myself condemn both the state terrorism and the civilian terrorism.
    
    Paul
    

    
    They should move it out here to Los Angeles.
    
    We need another trial. This Simpson thing is really dragging.
    
    Dave
    
    

Someone asked what the current death toll was; here is a current article:

Stench of death hangs over Oklahoma City

Reuters

OKLAHOMA CITY (4:08 p.m.) - The smell of death from the bombed Oklahoma
City building stretches for streets around, adding to the horrific task of
workers picking through the rubble.

High winds have dispersed some of the stench of decaying corpses but it has
combined with the harrowing sights of mayhem in the wreckage to demoralise
exhausted rescuers fast losing hope of finding survivors.

Firefighters are wearing masks doused with peppermint, menthol and perfume
to combat the smell.

Many are devastated by the experience.

One rescuer, who identified himself only as "Jim" phoned a talk show host
and said: "I have been in there three days and I can't sleep, I can't eat.
All I do is cry." His voice trailed off into sobs.

Ernestine Dillard, a rescue doctor who has worked at several disaster
sites, began crying when interviewed on television.

"This has been a real bad one," she said. "The children's toys, their shoes
... there's no medical school anywhere that can prepare you for that."

At least 80 bodies have been uncovered so far but authorities said Monday
many more would be found soon. At least 150 people, including many children
from a nursery in the building, are still missing.

Within the wreckage is an area rescue workers have grimly dubbed "the pit."

It is where firefighters believe the day-care center and social security
office in the building were located, and where the majority of victims are
likely to be found.

"While they may be getting closer, they have a long way to go," said a pool
reporter who toured the wreckage Monday.

The work, hindered by the danger of falling debris, is proceeding very
slowly. Firefighters are digging much of the rubble out by hand and
removing it in chains of buckets.

Many are forced to lie on their bellies in tiny spaces to tunnel through
the wreckage.

Reporters were also taken to an area known as "the cave," a cramped space
so small firefighters had to crawl into it on their backs.

Some 18 survivors were pulled out of this space.

Early on Monday firefighters removed the body of a U.S. marine found still
sitting at his desk and completely encased in rubble.

But amidst the tragedy one story of an amazing escape emerged Monday.

Firefighters said a man who entered a lift as the bomb exploded walked away
almost unscathed after the blast sent him plunging seven floors.

"It crashed to the first floor, the doors opened, and he walked out," said
NBC television reporter Roger O'Neill, who spoke to rescue workers inside
the building as part of a news pool.

The firemen did not give the man's name, but said he was only slightly
injured.

Firefighters said the lift, which may have saved the man's life, was now
working again, but was not being used by search teams combing through the
wreckage.

    RE: .385  Paul
    
    > Just for the record, what's your position concerning the government 
    > state terrorism at Waco?
    
    Whatever happened in Waco was not worth the killing of hundreds in 
    Oklahoma City over it (nor is it worth watching millions die in a 
    Civil War in this country over it, although others' mileage may vary.)
    
    > I myself condemn both the state terrorism and the civilian terrorism.
    
    If Timothy McVeigh had given the parents of the babies and young
    children at the Daycare Center 50 days to get them out (or even
    50 *minutes*) - we would not be grieving for the lives of these
    children today.

    
    - to c_bennett
    
    	A while back someone asked you to illustrate ONE right that
    	the Fed had taken away from YOU. It would have been smart,
    	mature and reasonable move for you to respond instead of being
    	a smart-ass. Responding might have given you time to actually
    	THINK instead of frothing in the mouth some more!
    
    	By the way are you going to blame the Fed or any govt (for that
    	matter) also, for you not being able to spell and differentiate
        say, poll ve pole? You know, bad education and all?
    	
    	To think that this is the work of "govt conspiracy" is laughable -
    	Extreme paranoia - that's what (among others) is so scary about 
        the militia - their motto is probably "Shoot/Bomb/Maim First, then 
    	Ask" or "Our way or NO way", I reckon.
    
    

    
    RE: S_CONLON
    
    I agree that Waco wasn't worth what happen at OC. And I condemned both.
    But that wasn't what I asked you. I asked you your position concerning
    the government state terrorism at Waco. 
    
    Paul
    
    
    

    
    
    i believe i heard today that a nurse/rescue worker was killed at the
    site when she was struck in the head by falling debris...
    
    
    %^<
    
    

    
    this guy McVeigh.
    honor student in high school
    was on the track team.
    honorable discharge, went to Gulf.
    drove a bradley vehicle.
    
    if he did this, where did all the hate come from.
    
    must be like a serial killer, makes no sense at all.
    
    ?
    

    McVeigh's hatred is part of the political landscape in our country
    right now.

    
    Yep. When Ronald Reagan was elected he was immediately demonized by the
    left and Clinton has been demonized by the right.
    
    Paul
    

    
    Those two with the last name of Nichols, (brothers?)
    
    The FBI announced they will be indicted on charges connected to
    the OC bombing. They were at first being held as witnesses.
    
    The charges are based on explosives found at their home and 
    at the OC bombing site.
    
    Dave
    

    
    I wonder if they thought they could get away with it or if they figured
    they'd be caught but did it anyway?
    
    Paul
    

    
    the public defenders that want off this case, now have stated they
    fear for the lives of their families if they defend these guys.
    
    smart lawyers.
    
    

    It is pretty scary to wake up and find out that things you feel
    strongly about like the right to own a gun,the Pro-Life movement,
    being against a Big Brother Government etc. are now associated
    with being a "wacko".  
    
    No doubt there will be those in the media and in government who
    will take the acts of a few murderous wackos and paint all 
    conservatives as lunatics for their political gain.
    
    I also find it ironic that the same people who are so outraged
    and upset by the bombing in OK. City could so easily dismiss
    what happened in Waco.  Sad.
    
    Elizabeth

    RE: .390  Paul Toohey
    
    > I agree that Waco wasn't worth what happen at OC. And I condemned both.
    > But that wasn't what I asked you. I asked you your position concerning
    > the government state terrorism at Waco. 
    
    Paul, I wanted to give it some thought before answering your question.
    
    As you may (or may not) know, I'm a member of the NRA so I have strong
    feelings about US 2nd Amendment rights.
    
    I also realize (by your use of the words 'government state terrorism
    at Waco') that you honestly don't see a difference between settling
    down to work with a cup of coffee, or being a baby who has been dropped
    off to Daycare on a calm Wednesday morning, then being blown up with
    1200-1500 pounds of explosives for an issue that had NOTHING WHATEVER
    ON THIS GREEN EARTH TO DO WITH YOU *versus* an arrest-warrant-gone-
    awry-which-turned-into-a-50-day-standoff-with-the-FBI, etc.-during-
    which-the-adults-had-every-opportunity-in-the-world-to-get-the-children-
    to-safe-ground.
    
    The people in Oklahoma City were NOT the BATF or the FBI - they were
    private citizens, children, babies, and people across the street
    who worked in other businesses.  They had nothing whatever to do
    with whatever put a hair up Timothy McVeigh's hind quarters (and
    I mean, they had NOTHING TO DO WITH WACO.)
    
    I'm sorry, but I just don't see the situations as being identical.
    Not that it matters (since the bombing in OKC can never be regarded
    as justification for what happened in Waco anyway.)
    
    As much as I believe in US 2nd Amendment rights, if the police come
    to my door for my guns, I will deal with it in the courts (so the
    BATF doesn't frighten me in the least.)  I'm not interested in having
    my country set up so that cooperation with law enforcement officials
    is optional.
    
    Now, I know you disagree vehemently (to the ends of the earth) with
    everything I've said, but it still doesn't change the fact that the
    bombing in OKC stands on its own as a horrendous crime that can
    never be justified in any way.

    
>    this guy McVeigh.
>    honor student in high school
>    was on the track team.
>    honorable discharge, went to Gulf.
>    drove a bradley vehicle.
    
 >   if he did this, where did all the hate come from.
    
  
   I believe he said that the army planted a "computer chip" in his buttock 
   (don't believe he specified which).



  Jim    

    RE: .398  Elizabeth
    
    > I also find it ironic that the same people who are so outraged
    > and upset by the bombing in OK. City could so easily dismiss    
    > what happened in Waco.  Sad.
    
    'The SAME PEOPLE who are so outraged' - aren't we ALL outraged
    over this?  Or doesn't it matter if it was done for Waco?
    
    It's pretty horrifying to think that perhaps some of those still 
    mad about what happened at Waco *MAY NOT* be 'outraged and upset 
    by the bombing in OK'.  When folks here thought the bombing was
    done by terrorists from the middle East, some were actually
    suggesting that our government CARPET BOMB the terrorists'
    home cities in the middle East!  Why is this bombing suddenly
    not a big deal to some (even though the people killed had 
    nothing whatever to do with Waco)?
    
    I thought nearly everyone in this country (AT LEAST everyone in
    this notesfile) totally condemned it.
    
    This bomb could have killed anyone here (no matter how mad they
    are about Waco) or their children.
    
    The bomb against Americans on the anniversary of McVeigh's execution
    could kill any of us next time (even those who spend every day, until 
    then, enraged over what happened at Waco.)

    
  
  > I believe he said that the army planted a "computer chip" in his buttock 
  > (don't believe he specified which).

 	he's just upset because it's not compatible with the "cow chip"
        between his ears. :-\
    
        on "nightline" tonight, a reporter quoted a source close to the
        investigation as saying that mcveigh hasn't told the authorites
        a single thing since he was taken into custody, even when
        confronted with pictures of the children who were blown up.
    
        bill 
  

    I don't have time to read through all of this, so I apologize if this
    has been discussed:
    
     Rumor that FBI was warned about McVeigh and that a fax actually
     warned of the bombing itself.
    
    Anybody got more on this?
    
    
    
    
    

    Revise figure for the size of the bomb was stated on news at
    
    5000 lbs. They said the original figure of 1000 was incorrect.The
    new figure was released by the investigation team.
    
    2000 pound Diasycluster bombs in Nam were bad news. Maybe since
    this was fertilizer based it didn't have the impact of an high
    explosive based bomb.
    
    Dave

    Well, Nancy, you might be referring to the Republican Congressman
    who received a fax about the bombing shortly before or shortly after
    it happened - it was thrown away at first (by the Republican's staff,
    per the Congressman himself) but then it was fished out and sent 
    either to the FBI or the NRA.
    
    They are seeking the man who is believed to have sent it.

    
    my note .395 is incorrect. the news I heard about the Nichols being
    indicted, didn't appear later in the day.
    
    much like the news onthe Simpson case. Facts are screwed up.
      
    Dave
    
    

re .404

If it was a 5000 pound bomb, it had the impact of 5000 pounds of TNT.

That's not the weight of the bomb; it's the TNT equivalence.

/john

    The news I heard is Terry Nichols is charged after finding bomb making
    materials in his house.  His brother is to be charged today.
    
    Dennis

    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    there is no excuse for anyone to use waco as a rallying cry for
    violence against the government or anyone else for that matter.
    terrorism is terrorism, PERIOD.  
    
    re: .260
    
    i never said that the militias were responsible for the bombing, but IF
    it turns out that they were, then they have done more to hurt their
    cause than the government could ever do, and those who are convicted,
    deserve the death penalty. as a gun owner and a member of the NRA, i am
    sure that this bombing will do more to hurt the image of law-abiding
    gun owners than ever before. to back this up, it was reported on the
    news last night that there is more opposition to repeal of the brady
    bill than there was before, and it's chances are looking very dim. 
     
    
                                   

April 24, 1995                         For Information Contact:
                                                                 

                                       NRA Public Affairs
                                       703-267-3820

MEDIA ADVISORY

NRA CLARIFIES ERRONEOUS NEWS REPORTS

Some recent news reports have incorrectly represented actions of
the National Rifle Association of America, in its handling of
information surrounding the tragedy in Oklahoma City.  In the
interest of providing accurate, truthful reporting of the
investigation of this callous act of terrorism, the following
describes NRA's activity related to a message that had been
earlier faxed to Congressman Steve Stockman's office from an
anonymous source.

After a preliminary internal investigation, it appears that NRA
Legal Counsel acted responsibly and may, in fact, have aided the
investigation.  If more relevant information is obtained after
further scrutiny, NRA will immediately issue an additional
statement to the media.

The following describes NRA activity from April 19 to April 21:

On the evening of Wednesday, April 19, the day of the bombing in
Oklahoma City, NRA Legal Counsel received a telephone call, at
home, from a member of Congressman Steve Stockman's staff.  The
congressional staffer expressed concern over a disturbing fax
that his office had received that day.  After the congressional
staffer described the fax, NRA Legal Counsel asked if it had been
shared with the Federal Bureau of Investigation.  The
congressional staffer said he was sure that the FBI had been
notified.  The congressional staffer explained that he was
calling to inquire if the NRA had any knowledge of who or what
"wolverine" was, as that name was printed at the top of the fax. 
NRA Legal Counsel replied that he would follow up on the
congressional inquiry and asked that a copy of the document be
faxed to his office the next day.

On April 20, at about 1:00 pm, the congressional staffer faxed
the document to NRA Legal Counsel.  In a subsequent telephone
conversation, NRA Legal Counsel asked again if the information
had been brought to the attention of the FBI.  The congressional
staffer again said that it had.  NRA Legal Counsel said he would
check to see if NRA staff had any knowledge of "wolverine." 
Later that same day, NRA Legal Counsel telephoned and left a
message for Congressman Stockman's staffer to return the call.

On April 21, the congressional staffer returned the call to NRA
Legal Counsel around midday.  NRA Legal Counsel stated that he
had no knowledge of "wolverine."  NRA Legal Counsel asked again
if the congressional staffer was absolutely certain that the
information had been forwarded to the FBI.  The staffer responded
that he thought it had been, but was not absolutely certain.  NRA
Legal Counsel asked if the congressional staffer had any
objections to NRA contacting the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and
Firearms about the information.  The congressional staffer
expressed no objections.  NRA Legal Counsel telephoned the office
of BATF's Legal Counsel.  After being told that the individual
was not available, NRA Legal Counsel explained the nature of the
call and was transferred to BATF's command center.  NRA Legal
Counsel described the fax to an agent at the command center and
immediately faxed the document to the agent.

Later that same afternoon, NRA Legal Counsel noted television
news reports about law enforcement activity in Michigan.  NRA
Legal Counsel then telephoned the agent at BATF's command center
to remind him of the fax and to draw his attention to the name
"wolverine" and to the telephone number identification printed at
the top of the document, a number from a Michigan area code.  The
BATF agent at command center thanked NRA Legal Counsel for the
information.

-- nra --
=+=+=
This information is presented as a service to the Internet community
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gopher://GOPHER.NRA.Org, wais://WAIS.NRA.Org, ftp://FTP.NRA.Org,
mailto:LISTPROC@NRA.Org (Send the word help as the body of a message)

Information can also be obtained by connecting to the NRA-ILA GUN-TALK
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NRA.org is maintained by Mainstream.com  mailto:info@mainstream.com

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                       NRA-ILA FAX NETWORK
                   NRA-ILA Grassroots Division
           11250 Waples Mill Road * Fairfax, VA  22030
Vol. 2, No. 18 - SpecialPhone: 1-800-392-8683 * Fax: 703-267-3918Special 4/24/95

                 NRA CONDEMNS ACTS OF TERRORISM

     Joining with its thousands of members in Oklahoma City, the
National Rifle Association of America condemned the criminal
terrorists who were responsible for the tragic bombing in Oklahoma
City and urged swift, sure punishment -- including the death
penalty -- for all individuals found responsible.

     "The NRA has nothing but contempt for terrorists or hate
groups that attempt to disguise themselves as patriots," said NRA
Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre.  LaPierre praised the
efforts of law enforcement in making quick progress in
investigating the case.  "We salute the law enforcement team that
has so skillfully and professionally investigated this matter." 
LaPierre said.  "The authorities who play a role in bringing the
terrorists to justice have no stronger ally than the NRA."

     NRA CLARIFIES ERRONEOUS NEWS REPORTS.  Many members and
volunteers have called in with questions concerning recent news
reports that incorrectly represent actions of the NRA in its
handling of information surrounding the tragedy in Oklahoma City. 
In the interest of providing accurate, truthful reporting of the
investigation of this callous act of terrorism, the following
describes NRA's activity related to a message that had been earlier
faxed to Congressman Steve Stockman's (R-TX) office from an
anonymous source.  After a preliminary internal investigation, it
appears that NRA Legal Counsel acted responsibly and may, in fact,
have aided the investigation.  

     On the evening of Wednesday, April 19, the day of the bombing
in Oklahoma City, NRA Legal Counsel received a telephone call, at
home, from a member of Congressman Stockman's staff.  The
congressional staffer expressed concern over a disturbing fax that
his office had received that day.  After the congressional staffer
described the fax, NRA Legal Counsel asked if it had been shared
with the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI).  The congressional
staffer said he was sure that the FBI had been notified.  The
congressional staffer explained that he was calling to inquire if
the NRA had any knowledge of who or what "wolverine" was, as that
name was printed at the top of the fax.  NRA Legal Counsel replied
that he would follow up on the congressional inquiry and asked that
a copy of the document be faxed to his office the next day. 
[SPECIAL NOTE:  Today, the FBI acknowledged receiving a fax from
Congressman Stockman's office on 4/19/95.]

     On April 20, at about 1:00 p.m., the congressional staffer
faxed the document to NRA Legal Counsel.  In a subsequent telephone
conversation, NRA Legal Counsel asked again if the information had
been brought to the attention of the FBI.  The congressional
staffer again said that it had.  NRA Legal Counsel said he would
check to see if NRA staff had any knowledge of "wolverine."  Later
that same day, NRA Legal Counsel telephoned and left a message for
Congressman Stockman's staffer to return the call.

     On April 21, the congressional staffer returned the call to
NRA Legal Counsel around midday.  NRA Legal Counsel stated that he
had no knowledge of "wolverine."  NRA Legal Counsel asked again if
the congressional staffer was absolutely certain that the
information had been forwarded to the FBI.  The staffer responded
that he thought it had been, but was not absolutely certain.  NRA
Legal Counsel asked if the congressional staffer had any objections
to NRA contacting the BATF about the information.  The
congressional staffer expressed no objections.  NRA Legal Counsel
telephoned the office of BATF's Legal Counsel.  After being told
that the individual was not available, NRA Legal Counsel explained
the nature of the call and was transferred to BATF's command
center.  NRA Legal Counsel described the fax to an agent at the
command center and immediately faxed the document to the agent. 
Later that same afternoon, NRA Legal Counsel noted television news
reports about law enforcement activity in Michigan.  NRA Legal
Counsel then telephoned the agent at BATF's command center to
remind him of the fax and to draw his attention to the name
"wolverine" and to the telephone number identification printed at
the top of the document, a number from a Michigan area code.  The
BATF agent at command center thanked NRA Legal Counsel for the
information.  

     The thoughts and prayers of NRA's 3.5 million members are with
the victims and their families in their time of need in Oklahoma
City.
                              -End-
=+=+=
This information is presented as a service to the Internet community
by the NRA/ILA.  Some useful URLs:  http://WWW.NRA.Org, 
gopher://GOPHER.NRA.Org, wais://WAIS.NRA.Org, ftp://FTP.NRA.Org,
mailto:LISTPROC@NRA.Org (Send the word help as the body of a message)

Information can also be obtained by connecting to the NRA-ILA GUN-TALK
BBS at (703) 934-2121.

NRA.org is maintained by Mainstream.com  mailto:info@mainstream.com

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Subject: Re: Clinton Attacks Waco Victims]
Message-Id: <199504241839.SAA28464@netcom22.netcom.com>

More video uplinks...from the satellites 11:30 AM PST 4/24/95

Stockman reports he got a fax from Mark Koernke at
about the time of the blast. It was cryptic fax and
said that there was going to be a blast. The fax came
to his Washington office. Other congressmen were said
to have also gotten the fax, as well as the NRA. His
staff in Washington was instructed by him to turn it
over to the FBI, which was done. I have some text of
the fax, it is the form of a warning of bombing, not
knowing where or what.

I saw video of the alleged search of Koernke's house, 
there was NO SEARCH. The Sheriff said that Koernke was
not a suspect and was not involved. Apparently Koernke
was taken into protective custody by the sheriff at his 
request...but not sure. Sheriff would notsay where he was.

TV Report says that blasting caps and fuse wire was
found at the Nickles farm. Probably true, he lives
in a forest and must have had to blast a lot to get
the trees cleared. They said no explosives were found.

Feeds are going wild, with all sorts of noise.

I saw a 20 minute uplink of militia video, looked
like a bunch in cammy's at a range doing nothing.
The scare is on with the militis. They really like
to do still shots of guns, bolt guns, semis all types.
Weird stuff, unless you are trying to build a case.

The KOCO out of OKC and Channel 7 out of Detroit are
the most active uplinkers of chase video.

FBI reports they have a security camera film which shows
the Ryder truck outside the building before the blast.
It is still shots.

Some uplinkers have continuous shots of the OKC building.
Searchers have reached the day care center. So a lot of
intense speculating about the numbers of victims. Toll
is now 79 according to on the scene fire chiefs report.

Senate is back, so no the rehtoric is beginning. Schumer
said the next RKBA hearing will most assuredly be called
off. Why?

Clinton speech is saying that the talk radio guys are
to blame. Right wing hate speech. Claims the hate speech
is causing the problem in the country. ... Sure like the
Democrats on the House floor talking about school lunches?

Hillary may have been indicted last week for bank fraud
and obstruction of justice. The Vince Foster case. Also the
current gov. of Arkansas, Tucker may have been indicted
for same. Indictments are allegedly sealed, if they happened
at all. There were supposedly as many as 16 people indicted
by the Arkansas grand jury last week. ... raw data hear. Wait
for more confirmation before drawing any conclusion would be
my advice.

McViegh's lawyers have withdrawn from representing him. Lawyer
said lawyers concern was they had friends in the tradgedy. They
are looking for substitute council. They filed a motion to
transfer the trial to Denver, higher up judge as well. 10 th
circuit court is Denver, I believe.

A news type said the NRA and other groups need to answer what
there involvement in the OKC incident is...obvious isn't it?
There was no NRA involvement at all. Get ready for it.

sheezzz sat feeds are going everywhere. The noise level is
horrific folks and you gotta take in all in and count to 10
before reacting to anything. The only thing I can do is to
report what is said and try to keep people informed. But
what I put out is not necessarily fact, just current.

Bill .... bglover@netcom.com
=======================================================================
Being a citizen is a full-time job. If we wish to reclaim our rights,
we first must begin by reclaiming our responsibilities.
=======================================================================

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Status update...4/24 11:30 AM PST
Message-Id: <199504242001.UAA27597@netcom2.netcom.com>

More....

Schumer held a news conference; among other things this
is part of what he said...

Schumer sent a letter to newt Gingrich requesting delay of the
hearings on RKBA.(some stretch here I might add). he went on...
We should delay or defer the next RKBA hearing and put off any
attempt at a repeal of the ban...now pay close attention ----
"...so as to not reward those who would commit violent acts."

Bill .... bglover@netcom.com
=======================================================================
Being a citizen is a full-time job. If we wish to reclaim our rights,
we first must begin by reclaiming our responsibilities.
=======================================================================

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Status update...4/24 11:30 AM PST
Message-Id: <199504242130.VAA02389@netcom6.netcom.com>

To those of you and others who have asked me where I get
this information, it is from satellite TV. I am watching
the birds as the various TV stations around the country
uplink on-scene reports and information. If you have
a BUD, Big Ugly Dish, look at T2 and G6 for c-band uplinks,
look at G4-21 for CBS uplinks, Look at T1-12 for ABC
and K2 ku band for NBC uplinks. ku news feeds show up
regularly on ku birds G4 G7 T1 K2.

More video uplink info off the satellites...

Several stations are running video clips of other related 
material, for instance there was a feed of about 30 minutes
of violence and violence clips about the Vietnam war protest.
Bombings, roits, fires, you name it, it was there.
They showed what appeared to be the black panthers and some
of the video around what they supposedly did. No audio, just
video, so I couldn't tell for sure, but I reconized some of
the footage, yep...I am that old :-}.

James and Terry Nickles are being held as MATERIAL WITNESSES.
The FBI has concluded their searce of their farm. A material
witness is one who has knowledge or has testimony which no
one else has, or at the very least few, can give. In important
cases the material witness can be held against thier will. The
person would typically be an eyewitness or even a victim. Since
these people knew the man(Mcveigh) who has been charged, this
is normal proceedure.

I saw tape of Koernke's family leaving the MI. farm where he lived.
The family was packing the trunk of the car in a orderly non-hurried
fashion. They "left for parts unknown". It is assumed they went into
hiding, and it is assumed the sheriff knows where they are at.
Koernke's radio show is on T2-21 5.8 wideband audio at
5:00 PM PST so I have been told. I will check tonight. He is
quite outspoken about the gun ban and the one world government
according to the backgrounder done on by the TV station.

The media in general is connecting the gun ban and the repeal
to the bombing. We need to get a strategy together for after
the media feeding frenzy. And it is a freenzy. The gun ban
is at the center of it as far as the media is concerned. Schumer
is leading the charge(no news there is it?) One news type said
it is hard to connect guns to fertilizer, and makes no sense
to do so. How true it is. I use the same type fertilizer in my 
garden, it costs about $2 for a 20# bag. I also have a diesel
pickup with high capacity dual fuel tanks.

I saw a live press conference, the media asked to meet with him,
of Stockman defending his office's action regarding
the fax he received. The fax was apparently a status report, the
FBI got is, and acknowledged that Stockman had done everything
proper. Now the media...both did they go after him. As you
know, Stockman was the one who filed the repeal the gun ban
bill the last day before the break. They were all over him
about this. A staffer of Stockman had sent the fax on to the
NRA and had asked if the NRA could help identify the sender.
This may have been improper in hindsight, but the staffer
did not know what else to do. This was after he sent it
to the FBI and he was likely only trying to help.

	To me I think the report in the fax Stockman got was
	a 'on the scene' report from someone trying to relay 
	information about the bombing. There is still some discussion
	if the fax came before or after the blast. Stockman
	displayed a letter from the FBI, which he gave the
	media saying he acted promptly and properly. The
	media wasn't buying it though.

I saw a live interview with the Mid-East fellow who was brought
back from England. He was sure treated poorly and went over
what happened to him. They stripped him naked, wouldn't let
him even eat, and as he said, he didn't do anything. He was
only going to Jordan. Seems to me police overreacted big time.
He was really up tight about the whole affair. He was put
through the wringer and it showed.

Bill .... bglover@netcom.com
=======================================================================
Being a citizen is a full-time job. If we wish to reclaim our rights,
we first must begin by reclaiming our responsibilities.
=======================================================================

------------------------------

Message-Id: <Pine.HPP.3.91.950424165512.27808Z-100000@elmer.wrq.com>

I will not comment on any of this and would not want to deny or endorse 
any conclusions in it or drawn from it. HOWEVER I will say that have 
heard similar information from another source. Around 3pm PST KVI Radio 
in Seattle interviewed someone alledgedly with a group called citizens 
for a constitutional washington who had information identical to the 
information I've left below. The host of the show, Mike Seigel, read all 
of the information from a FAX he said he had recieved from them and 
concurred that on the graphic of the seismorgraph there were two blips 
of roughly the same size. 
The CCW representative claimed that they had no ties with the militia 
movement and that the FAX they had forwarded to Seigel was from the 
seismology lab of the Univ of OK. Seigel said it was a letter from the 
lab director. None of them of course pinpointed the waves as coming from 
inside or outside the building but the letter implied that it was the 
bomb blast/blasts that leveled the building
-Boyd Kneeland
(I would appreciate email from anyone with more data on the CCW group)
 On Mon, 24 Apr 1995, PAUL D QUESNELL wrote:

Message-Id: <199504250036.AAA27694@netcom7.netcom.com>

Status update, 4/24/95 5:30 PM PST....

Mark Koernke, MI militia, showed up on the radio network
(T2-21 5.8 wideband audio, OMEGA RADIO network) on schedule
and live. He re-iterates he is wanted for nothing, has
talked at length to the Sheriff and the FBI on his own,
and was not involved. He says he left his house to get
away from the media, he says he was served no search warrant
(as I said on the last report) and expects none to be
served, since SAYS HE KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT THE TERRORIST
ATTACK OR THE PEOPLE INVOLVED. HE CONDEMNED THE ATTACKS AS
DOES EVERY ONE ELSE AS NOT RIGHT AND SENDS HIS PRAYERS
FOR THE VICTIMS.

He apparently did send the fax to Stockman, he sent it
about one hour after the blast, and as I said before, he
sent it out as an advisory that an act had taken place, 
not before the fact as was reported. The error as he states,
was due to the fact they had forgot to set the time on
their fax when day light savings time changed over. He
said he sent the fax to advise only.

Koernke is getting alot of calls from the media and the
gun ban in the crime bill remains the center of the media
attention. He relates just about all the media types ask
about it. Funny they don't ask about fertilizer isn't it?

I saw several media types ask interview questions about the NRA
and it's envolvement in the bombing, they were definitely
trying to connect the two.

Bill .... bglover@netcom.com
=======================================================================
Being a citizen is a full-time job. If we wish to reclaim our rights,
we first must begin by reclaiming our responsibilities.
=======================================================================

Message-Id: <199504250118.BAA10413@netcom21.netcom.com>

Chin straps folks...RAW DATA JUST COMING IN.

Media is saying they don't think the militia is 
envolved, but who knows right now...

Another bomb went off in Sacromento taday. It was at
an office of a group who is working to get the spotted
owl _OFF_ the endangered species list. One dead, so far.
Reports are sketchy on exactly what happened. Reporter
said a package was delivered to the offices and when 
they took it in the building, it blew up.

Apparently it was a small device and did not level
the building.

The local TV station states "Environmental terrorist"
are expected as the cause. This is the second bomb in
the area, the first was at a lumber company shed where
$50k damage was done. The lumber company was logging the
precious "old growth" trees. You may have missed the
press coverage in your national media. This happened 
two weeks ago.

.............this is just preliminary information, since
it was on the local TV station, I assume it correct, but
caution is advised.

They are also saying it might be the UNI-BOMBER who has
set off 17 small bombs nationwide. They do not think it
related to OKC, or the militia. It does not fit the
uni-bomber pattern, which has in the past used mailbombs.

From a SF radio station...US BATF spokesman says they
have had a rash of bomb threats, but this is the first real
bomb. They were alerting the public to watch out for
suspicious behavior and objects.

More later...

Bill .... bglover@netcom.com
=======================================================================
Being a citizen is a full-time job. If we wish to reclaim our rights,
we first must begin by reclaiming our responsibilities.
=======================================================================

Message-Id: <199504250220.CAA24255@netcom3.netcom.com>

7:15 PM PST 4/24/95

things are hoping again...sat feeds are now saying...

Saw a sat feed of the New Hampsire militia, same story vilify
the people and their guns. Showed a guy with a 336 Marlin
lever gun and said it was a semi-auto, oh well, the usual
media accuracy. And connect the dots to the gun ban repeal.

DiFi...spokesman said...we need to stop the AW repeal effort
and not reward those extremist for violence. DiFi sent a
letter to Dole and Gingrich saying same. he went on to
label those who would repeal the gun ban extremists.
Don't know about you, but I am really getting tired of this.

New terrorist powers being requested....
FBI internal terrorist office is being asked to be set up
by Clinton. Adds wide sweeping new powers to wire tap,
surveil and have secret trials and on and on it goes. A
full blown police state. ACLU weighs in against it, but
the legislation is ON THE FAST TRACK and hearings are
scheduled to get underway next week. 

Video now coming in...7:20 PM
Sacto bomb, 2:20PM, an employee of a forestry lobby group
retrieved a shoebox size package. When attempting to open
the package it blew up, killing the person. About a 35
feet area of destruction. This group is apparently working
to get the spotted owl OFF the endangered species list.
Gov Wilson is supporting the groups effort and expressed 
outrage at whoever did this. The local TV stations are
saying "enviromental extremists" are apparently behind
this due to the nature of the target.  Second bomb in
two weeks out here. Both _APPEAR_ related to the 
environmentalist movement because of their targets.

But who knows for now. we don't want to fall in the same
trap the rest of the media is now in, so I reserve all
judgement as to who did this and why. This is now a CAPITAL
FEDERAL CRIME AS WELL. Speculation is it is not related
to the OKC bombing.

Bill .... bglover@netcom.com
=======================================================================
Being a citizen is a full-time job. If we wish to reclaim our rights,
we first must begin by reclaiming our responsibilities.
=======================================================================

 
BILL CLINTON ON *60 MINUTES*
 
President Clinton was interviewed on the CBS program, *60 
Minutes*, on April 23, 1995. 
 
MIKE WALLACE:
...Are we Americans going to have to give up some of our 
liberties in order better to combat terrorism? Both from overseas 
and here?
 
 
BILL CLINTON:
Mike, I don't think we have to give up our liberties, but I do 
think we have to have more discipline. And we have to be willing 
to see serious threats to our liberties properly investigated. I 
have sent a "counter-terrorism" piece of legislation to Capitol 
Hill, which I hope Congress will pass. And after consultation 
with the attorney general and the FBI director and others, I'm 
going to send some *more* legislation to Congress to ask them to 
give the FBI and others *more* power to crack these terrorist 
networks -- both domestic and foreign.
    
*{bunch of garbage deleted}* 
 
LESLIE STAHL:
But Mr. President, there are tens -- maybe more -- tens of 
thousands of men and women, dressing up on week-ends in military 
garb, going off for training, because they're upset about Waco -- 
despite what you've said. We're talking about thousands and 
thousands of people in this country who are *furious* at the 
federal government for what *you* say is irrational -- but *they* 
believe it.
 
 
BILL CLINTON:
Well they have a right to believe whatever they want. They have a 
right to say whatever they want. They have a right to keep and 
bear arms. They have a right to put on uniforms and go out on the 
weekends.
    
{ A RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS BILL???? NO KIDDING!!!! }
 

    
    .412 Subject: Re: Clinton Attacks Waco Victims]
    
    What a joke title. By their actions they were criminals and 
    murders. The governments mistake was misjudging how violent 
    they really were and not calling off the raid when the element
    of surprize was lost.
    
    I believe the recent gas posionings in Japan and this bombing
    actually vindicates the government. Showing that these people
    have to be watched because they are unstable and dangerous.
    (The fire-fight should have been enough to show they were unstable.)
    After the bomb, after the posionings, people are wondering why
    the governments didn't know the danger.
    
    These are all birds of a feather. 
     

    
    Re: bomb size:
    
    I read that the fertilizer bomb is about 60% as powerful as TNT, so if
    the TNT equivalency is 5000 lbs, then the bomb probably weighed about
    8300 lbs.
    

    
    
re:                     <<< Note 393.415 by MIMS::WILBUR_D >>>
>              -< What were they, peace loving flower people? NOT >-
    
    
    	>    What a joke title. By their actions they were criminals and 
>    murders. The governments mistake was misjudging how violent 
>    they really were and not calling off the raid when the element
>    of surprize was lost.
    
    	Ah, another blind sheep following the government supplied
    misinformation. Just watch the news and go to sleep and dream of how
    ol' Janet Reno is protecting you from the bad guys. Nighty night...
    
>    I believe the recent gas posionings in Japan and this bombing
>    actually vindicates the government. Showing that these people
>    have to be watched because they are unstable and dangerous.
>    (The fire-fight should have been enough to show they were unstable.)
>    After the bomb, after the posionings, people are wondering why
>    the governments didn't know the danger.
>    These are all birds of a feather. 
    
    	ah yes. Lump 'em all together and toss 'em to the wolves. Raid
    religious sects! More police powers! Warrantless searches! Heck, let's
    just put 'em all in concentration camps like we did with the Japanese
    after the bombing of Pearl Harbor! Ta heck with the consititution, it's
    an outdated piece of paper anyway! We need socialsm now!!!
    
    
    	 yeah, right...
    
    
    jim

    
    Did anyone happen to catch Newt Gingrich last night on CNN, stating
    that he would support broadening the powers of the FBI to counter this
    sort of thing?
    

        <<< Note 393.384 by BSS::S_CONLON "A Season of Carnelians..." >>>
                                    -< ... >-

>   The American people will hand over a number of personal freedoms to
>   give the government an edge over those who would threaten this
>   country with more bombings.  And I know you know this (whether you
>   agree with it or not!)

Like I said, I do agree.  It's stupid, but they'll do it.

Let's not forget that the security at that building was not only bad 
(allowing an unattended truck to park directly in front of the building), 
but it was not as good as other Federal buildings.  We heard over the 
weekend that some Federal office buildings had increased their security 
and removed their day care facilities.  This one didn't.  Now if someone
in the great Federal behemoth figured out that Federal offices might be
targets, then why didn't they spread the word to all Federal buildings?
For Pete's sake, they can't protect themselves, how can protect the other
250 million of us?

The cries for Big Brother to come save them are like the bleating of so
many sheep.  Once again the Federal government becomes the answer to our
problems.

The Media also get revenge on their favorite enemies.  In particular, the
hysterical cries are "right-wing extremists".  They will equate "right-wing
extremists" with "baby killers".  They get to attack talk radio for fanning
the flames.  They are trying to make every possible connection between the
bombings and the NRA.

Then in 1996, they will again label Bob Dole, Newt Gingrich, et. al. as 
"right-wing extremists".

Meanwhile, President Clinton's approval rating goes from 47% to 58%.

    
    re: .418
    
    	yeah, Dole said the same thing.
    
    	I heard an interview on NPR this morning that was interesting...it
    was with an attorney for a group in New York that defends the
    constitution. He claims the FBI has too much power already and to
    reverse the limited powers rulings reached in the 70's would be a
    horrible mistake. I think it's too late to stop it....
    
    
    jim
       

Note 393.383 by BSS::S_CONLON "A Season of Carnelians..."      
    
   > > There may be groups that say it may have to come down to Civil War II,
   > > but I don't hear anyone CALLING for it.  
    
>    Well, I have (go back to the internet posting put into this topic last
>    night - didn't it mention something about marching on Washington with
>    guns?)  This was not a derogatory article ABOUT militias, but an
>    anti-government article in favor of militias, not so?
 
    Yes, it mentioned a march on DC in uniform, with guns.  It didn't say
    anything about an assault on DC, though.  It never happened, though,
    did it.  The ultimatum was not delivered.
    
    In any case, the militia in question seems to be preparing *for* an
    assault on themselves, not preparing *to* assault anyone.  Big
    difference.  They believe that the Constitution will be suspended, and
    they wish to be ready if martial law is called nation-wide.  I can't
    say I blame them for wanting to be prepared for such a thing.  I am
    glad that they didn't march on DC, I think that would have been a bad
    idea.
       
>    Don't kid yourself - it won't be much of a split.  Even if we have
>    100,000 armed people in militias in this country (and I don't think
>    it's this high, but who knows) - we have over 250,000,000 people in
>    this country and I don't personally think that most of our 250 mil.
>    are in the mood to see this country become Bosnia, do you??
 
    I think you underestimate the patriots, but I think that your
    conclusion is, unfortunately, sound.  There won't be much of a split,
    as most will willingly become federal slaves rather than fight against
    an oppressive government.  Peace at any cost.  This attitude merely
    shows that we do not deserve our freedoms.
       
>    How long has it been since we've fought a lengthy Civil War in this
>    country (and what was the cost of this war last time???)  Do you
>    honestly think the people of this country want to stand by as
>    millions of us die on our own soil (in an ideological conflict
>    about the Republican party versus the Democrat party?)
 
    No one wants to see anyone die, but some things are worth fighting for. 
    Our FF certainly beleived that freedom from an oppressive government
    was worth losing everything over (check out what happened to those who
    signed the Declaration of Independence, after they signed it).
    
    I disagree that it is an ideological conflict most strenuously.  It has
    to do with the law of the land.  Both Dems and Repubs have committed
    what basically comes down to treason, by ignoring/circumventing the
    Constitution.  It has nothing to do with politics, but everything to do
    with LAW, which the federal government seems to think it is above.
      
>    Do you think most people believe things are bad enough in this country
>    to warrant watching their children die over a political belief?
 
    Once again, it is not political.  It is the most basic law of the land
    that the federal government is usurping.  And when the law goes, so do
    our rights.  It would be a battle of freedom (not too disimilar to the
    war of independence).
       
>    If it comes down to a group of people trying to overthrow the U.S.
>    government, 
    
    Not exactly overthrow, more like, put it back under Constitutional law.
    
>    the American people will want the government to use their
>    superpower muscle to stop it (and real fast.)
    
    You going to nuke freedom fighters?  Unfortunately, just as the
    propaganda machine led the people astray in 1984 (Orwell) and in the
    very real world of Nazi Germany in the 30's and 40's, it will
    undeniably turn public opinion against the freedom fighters.  They
    would be called terrorists and criminals (just like those who faught
    against the  tyranny of England over 200 years ago).
    
    
    -steve

    
>    Don't kid yourself - it won't be much of a split.  Even if we have
>    100,000 armed people in militias in this country (and I don't think
>    it's this high, but who knows) - we have over 250,000,000 people in
>    this country and I don't personally think that most of our 250 mil.
>    are in the mood to see this country become Bosnia, do you??
    
    
    	Only 2% of the population supported the Revolutionary War. It
    doesn't take much.
    
    	I don't support a civil war BTW. We have a long way to go before
    we're anywhere near that extreme. Things need to change at the ballot
    box.
    
    	jim
           

    re: .414
    
    In just a day or two, Clinton has a "counter terrorism" package ready to
    be sent to Congress?? (!)
    
    Does this seem at all suspicious to anyone?
    
    
    -steve

    Given that there is no evidence any of the organized militias were
    involved in the bombing, and that the Michigan militia may even have
    warned the FBI about McVeigh, enacting legislation allowing the
    government to "infiltrate" these groups that most strongly want to be
    left alone is stupid.  The smart thing to do with people who want to be
    left alone is to leave them alone.
    
    Leave the people alone.

    This is not a popularity contest, folks.  It is not about voting or
    Democracy; it is about freedom.  The militias do not need to look good
    in the public eye; they do not need to sway majority public opinion. 
    They are strong because they are numerous and they will defend
    themselves.  Every bit of publicity may turn off many viewers, but each
    viewer who is attracted to the militia adds to their strength -- so
    publicity works for them.  Even if shallow public opinion goes against
    the militias now, the publicity adds to their membership.
    
    Leave the people alone.

    Some things cannot be voted on.  You cannot vote to take away freedom
    of religion.  You cannot vote to take away freedom of speech.  You
    cannot vote to take away the right to a trial.  Do these things and
    your victims WILL wage war against you.  There is no debate; there is
    no negotiation; there is no compromise.
    
    Leave the people alone.

    Should the government "crack down" on militias, they will have no
    choice.  There will be civil war in this country.  When the United
    States believed "right" was on its side, it bombed Iraq, killing
    between 100,000 and 200,000 civilians.  That is war.  War kills.  War
    kills civilians.  War kills children.  War destroys buildings in your
    home town.  Because the militia members are native, they will not fight
    a war of terrorism that foreigners might.  They will not cause the
    deaths of 100,000 to 200,000 civilians the way a heartless foreign
    president would -- but they will attack federal facilities, and there
    will be incidental civilian casualties, even children.  Is this
    heartless?  No, there will be great remorse in this country -- brother
    fighting brother, as happened last century.  But it will happen.  More
    federal buildings will go.  Is this evil?  All war is evil.  Should we
    be surprised?  No.  Your President is evil; he has ordered human death. 
    Your Attorney General is evil; she has killed children.  Your military
    is evil.  Your FBI, BATF, and DEA are evil.  Many people are evil; why
    are you surprised that Timothy McVeigh is evil?  When freedom is
    attacked, evil arises in the world.  
    
    A civil war cannot be won.  The militias are too numerous to eradicate,
    and attacking them will cause other people to join.  Unlike the reasons
    that Presidents go to war -- power, oil, money -- the militias will be
    warring for their freedom.  They will believe in the cause with a
    fervor that never dies.  History has proven over and over again that a
    government cannot suppress its people.  In the end, a bad government
    will be overturned, and the people will win their freedom.  The only
    question is how much destruction will occur before the inevitable
    victory.  The best path is clear:  The militias want to be left alone.
                  
    Leave the people alone.


    				-- edp


Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    
    
    
       How long have these militias been around??  
    
    
       Ed

    RE: .423  Steve Leech
    
    / In just a day or two, Clinton has a "counter terrorism" package ready 
    / to be sent to Congress?? (!)
    
    The bombing in OKC was almost a week ago (and every President keeps
    advisers, lawyers and writers on staff to handle urgent matters.)
    
    / Does this seem at all suspicious to anyone?
    
    It must mean that Clinton rented the truck, right?  :|
    
    Dole announced this morning that the Republicans will support this
    legislation (Newt says the same thing.)

Given the the manner in which these terms are being being thrown about it would
be interesting to see what the following terms mean to different people.

Anyone care to give their definition of ...

       Right Wing Extremist
       Anti-government
       Militia


Anyone know what the media's definitions are?

Doug.

      
    RE: .424
    
    	We all need to read and reflect carefully on what EDP has written.
    Because regardless of our individual ideals, our wishes, our
    philosophies, or our deepest sympathies; WE MUST pursue the guilty and
    leave those that can not be shown to be quilty alone!!!

>    	We all need to read and reflect carefully on what EDP has written.

>Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75

OMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM....

-- [ From: Gene Haag * EMC.Ver #2.2 ] --

What happened in Oklahoma City (OKC) last week was a deplorable and sickening
act. Those responsible should be apprehended and, when found guilty, executed
immediately. We should offer whatever assistance and moral guidance the peoples
of OKC need/desire to overcome this disaster. A compassionate leadership would
strive for quick justice, aid the people in accommodating their grief and, most
important of all, help them in putting this behind themselves and getting on
with their daily lives. That, however, is simply not going to happen.

Perhaps expecting a reasonable response to this disaster from our government
and media leadership was expecting to much. One commentary this past weekend
called for "justice, not vengeance". Justice may yet be served in the form of
prosecution of the guilty. Although I doubt we will ever fully know the truth.
Though deplorable, vengeance could be understood and, indeed probably demanded,
by many of those who consider themselves compassionate and somehow morally
right. However, what's actually happening is worse. Much worse. And totally
predictable. I am nearly as sickened by the events of this past weekend as I
was by the actual bombing.

Utilizing disasters for political opportunism had been around as long as
politicians. However, the current media and political frenzy surrounding this
disaster is unprecedented in its blatancy. We're not merely seeking justice or
even vengeance, but the revival of a political disaster and the wholesale
condemnation of peoples for nothing more than ideological beliefs that are
fully within the boundaries of current law. One could not help but see that the
media has labeled anyone who is even remotely associated with anything called a
militia, or those who dare support the RKBA, as nothing less than baby killers
and threats to society. It's especially sickening to see them make such
accusations under the guise of "reporting what the public wants to see/hear".
It's really disgusting to see the media believe that, while little credence
would have been given to such statements two weeks ago, those statements now
should be adopted as unquestioned gospel. There is no industry that is as self
serving as the media. Does anyone really think the media wishes to aid the
peoples of OKC to overcome this disaster and get on with their lives? No, that
wouldn't be in their best interest of achieving the desired ratings of market
share.

Some items I noted while watching this weekends newscasts. These statements are
NOT figments of my imagination. 

 - ABC and NBC have already committed to televising, live, the trials of those
   accused of this
   disaster.

 - CBS dedicated a show to Rep. Schumer to discuss why his proposed legislation
   on gun control now, more than ever, needs to be passed. (what the hell do
   guns have to do with the OKC bombing?).

 - ABC stated, repeatedly, that ALL militia's were training for one thing, and
   one thing only. That being an assault on the federal government.

 - NBC and CBS held specials investigating the role conservative talk shows may
   have played in shaping the mood of the country and influencing acts such as
   the OKC bombing. None of the stations expressed an interest in discussing
   why american opinion of government has soured so much in recent years. They
   were to busy discussing how well government was handling this whole issue.

 - ABC commentators stated that it is common knowledge that militia members
   were poorly educated and usually had long histories of trouble with the law.

 - ABC stated that in the interest of public safety it was acceptable to
   "compromise" some of our constitutional rights. After all, a society living
   in perpetual fear really couldn't benefit from those rights. (I really got
   angry at this statement).

 - ABC stated that anyone who actively prepares to confront the ruling
   government "had to be guilty of some crime - or at least be held
   accountable". (I about fell out of my chair on that one). They were
   dumbfounded when one commentator (George Will) merely suggested that
   with such a broad      definition they were including our founding fathers.
   That suggestion was written off with a statement that these are different,
   and more dangerous, times. The media is convienantly consistent about 
   defining things in very general terms. It's a common ploy used by media and
   politicians to avoid accountability. In this case it's a very dangerous
   practice because of its attempt to define targets for "further government
   attention". I liken it to some state opening "bird" hunting season. Anything
   that flies is a legitimate target. It dramatically reduces the chance that
   the "wrong" bird will get shot.

- NBC stated that militias should be required to register as taxable
  organizations and be forbidden from practicing with weapons - guns were OK,
  but NO weapons. (I was speechless on this one). That was followed up with a
  statement that perhaps the militias could be taxed out of existence.

 - All three major networks strongly endorse a widespread crackdown on
   militia's - yet, typically, not one single network could define what
   constituted a militia. History has taught us some clear and painful lessons
   about what happens when controlling agencies attempt to eradicate
   something they have not clearly defined and communicated to the peoples.

 - NBC stated that "informed sources" told them that ALL leaders of the militia
   movement nationwide were white, racist supremacists. (note the singular
   "movement". they are giving the impression that there is a nationwide,
   organized, growing army that is a threat to us all and must be addressed).

 - CBS and ABC reported that the militia movements around the country were
   organizing and plotting via the Internet and that that somehow needed to be
   monitored and stopped. ABC was adamant that such action would not
   constitute a violation of the 1st amendment. They had some idiot, from
   the department of commerce no less, that insinuated monitoring the email on
   the Internet might be an expensive, but certainly doable, task. I felt he
   was lobbying for a job as he seemed real pleased when congratulated how he
   obviously had this well thought out (it took my wife 45 minutes to calm
   me down). 

 - ABC and CBS had former FBI officials who claimed they could not even begin
   to look at any group until they had evidence that group had committed, or
   was planning to commit, a crime. They insisted they didn't even have the
   freedom the press has in beginning the investigation of potential threats.
   (this is either a bold face lie, or the FBI breaks this law DAILY. This is
   part of the conditioning process aimed at making it acceptable for the
   coming abuse of our rights by governmental agencies in the name of
   "national security").

 - ABC supported an idea proposed by an FBI official that those paramilitary
   organizations whose intent "appears" aimed at subverting the US government
   should be infiltrated and stopped. (this issue is so ripe for abuse it's
   ludicrous that anyone with a shred of common sense would agree to it).

 - All three networks strongly supported the presidents proposed widening of
   federal law enforcements authority in the areas of terrorism, militia's,
   and weapons violations (again, what the hell does this have to do with guns?
   I guess banning fertilizer wouldn't be acceptable. And by whose definition
   will we define "militia's"?)

- All three networks praised law enforcements quick, and decisive actions. ABC
  did interview the Jordanian arrested in London and flown back to DC for
  "questioning".  With no evidence, the feds repeatedly violated this persons
  rights in the name of national security. (we will soon see a LOT more of
  this kind of abuse).

 - The president said that anyone or any organization that refuses (not flees,
   not resists, not fights) federal investigations into their actions WILL NOT
   BE TOLERATED. He immediately followed that up with statements that no one
   had the right to plan subversive actions against the government or its
   employees. Those are incredibly dangerous statements coming from the
   president. I believe this will quickly lead to broader investigative powers
   for federal policing agencies without regard to our rights as citizens. It
   will also make those agencies immune from prosecution (they practically
   are now) for violating any of those rights "while in pursuit of national
   security matters". You will notice the very vague definitions - thereby
   legitimizing actions that violate just about any of our rights.

Which gets me back to the political aspect of this. There is no doubt that the
president will outwardly declare this the horrible, senseless disaster it is.
However, inwardly, there is equally no doubt about his sense of opportunity.
His presidency is a disaster. He needs a home run with the american people to
save that presidency in next years election. From a political perspective the
OKC murders came at just the right time. There isn't much doubt that this
administration will exploit this issue as much as possible. Not simply to
achieve justice, or even vengeance, but for political salvation. This is  
a sickening set of events for they imply that the much needed healing process
to get us by this disaster will be stretched out to the maximum - opposite of
what's needed. It's also an extremely dangerous course to chart for it will
divert much attention to areas that would remain quiet and peaceful if left
alone.

I think the federal policing agencies did an excellent job of lying about why
they didn't see the OKC disaster coming and prevent it. They sang right in tune
with the president. It's almost like they rehearsed the response. 
The message is:

 "The federal police agencies have prevented such disasters in the past.
  However, they simply don't have the freedom to detect and prevent as many
  as they would like."

It's frightening to think that many americans will actually believe this. This
administration is betting its political future that YOU will believe. Common
sense should tell you it's one big sham playing to your sense of insecurity and
fear. In some of the most rigidly controlled societies on this planet kooks
regularly commit acts of terrorism preying upon the innocent and defenseless.
Places like Israel, Turkey, India, Ireland, England, South Africa, etc.,
countries with much more regulated and policed populations than the US,  are
all prone to many more acts of terrorism than the US. If a very small band of
individuals are determined to commit such heinous crimes, they are unlikely to
be found out beforehand. The FBI, ATF, president, media, etc. all know this. So
why don't they tell you the truth? Simply because it's not in their best
political interests to do so. A very bitter and ironic twist in this whole
affair is that the FBI has stated that the alleged culprits in this mess were
very sloppy in their planning and execution of the bombing. Perhaps, but
obviously they were not sloppy enough to be detected before hand.

Since the 1992 election the governing power structure has been stung over and
over again. Many view this as their chance for re-emergence to power. In the
coming days/weeks the media will attempt to whip the country into a frenzy
clamoring for justice in the name of the OKC murders. This will be soundly
supported by a president, anxious to show leadership and portray himself as
defender of the republic, who will continually echo "i'm going to make this
right". There will be massive campaigns aimed at assaulting our rights in the
name of justice. Anyone who even questions the motives of those actions will be
classified as supportive of murderers and, worse, baby killers. That's already
playing out as shown on ABC yesterday where the leader of a MI militia answered
a question about why his men were training with guns by stating they were
exercising their constitutional rights - and was promptly asked how he could
possibly support activities that led to the death of innocent women and
children? Excuse me? What the hell does the OKC disaster have to do with guns?
Other than personal and political agendas? And since when did exercising our
constitutional rights equate to supporting murderers? Perhaps the most
incredible aspect of this is how many watching that show saw NOTHING wrong with
those accusations.

This whole episode saddens me. The loss of life is tragic - the act senseless.
Especially the all too common way the media injects their personal, unrelated
agenda's into a sorrowful situation, and in particular the current
administration's pathetic, self-serving actions to date and those too come. I
fear that the lives of many honest, law abiding, tax paying citizens are about
to be pushed - and pushed hard - all in the name of justice. That would indeed
be tragic. If we do nothing this most assuredly will happen. Perhaps it can't
be stopped. 

However, I do not intend to sit back and watch rights that, for 200+ years
millions have died to protect, trampled in the name of "justice". I intend to
write my elected officials and remind them that justice entails the capture and
prosecution of those that committed the atrocities in OKC. If they are found to
be guilty, they must be put to death quickly - without lengthy, televised
trials (only the media measures the quality of justice by the time it takes to
determine guilt or innocence).  Then we must get on with our lives and not get
tangled up in prolonged, politically motivated, endless witch hunts in which we
stand to gain little other than possible conflict, more loss of life, and a
further dividing of the peoples along overly inflamed issues.

What you do is up to you. It's your choice.

    
    
    
    .417 Jim your going so far right your in the left, finding yourself
    with the ACLU.
    
    Come'on you already gave up most of your civil rights anyways
    with the war on drugs. 
    
    Which wasn't the point. The point was, Waco was Wakos. The only
    sleepers in this country are those that throw away the facts to
    make them fit their little paranoid revolution dreams.
                                                           
     
    

    ZZ    Which wasn't the point. The point was, Waco was Wakos. The only
    
    You mean...because they were wackos the federal gov't. had the right to
    do what they did?
    
    

    It is amazing to see the 180 degree turn in the attitude shown by many
    respondents in this replies once the middle eastern angle was lost. 
    The vengeful screamers are now advocating restraint when the suspect is
    one of "theirs".  Oh, what a change of heart!
    
    - Vikas

    
    re: .434
    
     ???????????????????
    
    Where did you glean that from????
    

    
    
>    .417 Jim your going so far right your in the left, finding yourself
>    with the ACLU.
    
    	Wrong. The ACLU has gone so far right as to find itself with me.
    
>    Come'on you already gave up most of your civil rights anyways
>    with the war on drugs. 
    
    	I didn't give them up, they were forcibly taken from me. The war on
    drugs is a stupid farce to keep the DEA/BATF employed.
    
>    Which wasn't the point. The point was, Waco was Wakos. The only
>    sleepers in this country are those that throw away the facts to
>    make them fit their little paranoid revolution dreams.
    
    	Right, sure thing there wilbur. In case you haven't noticed, I
    don't want a revolution. I have a wife and two small children and the
    thought of putting them in any kind of danger just scares the bejesus
    out of me. BUT, I do look beyond the traditional narrow-minded view of
    the world that most seem to take. I look at the facts and I look at
    both sides of the issue instead of having blind faith in one side or
    the other.
    
    	You just go right on believing your government would never do
    anything unjust, and I'll go right on believing they need to be kept
    under close watch. Pleasant dreams...
    
    jim

    .434
    
    tsk
    
    restraint
    
    ric

ACLU * ACLU * ACLU * ACLU * ACLU * ACLU * ACLU * ACLU * ACLU 
 NEWS RELEASE * NEWS RELEASE * NEWS RELEASE * NEWS RELEASE  
 
 
ACLU Denounces Clinton Administration Proposals on Terrorism; 
Urges Government Not To Sacrifice Individual Liberty and Freedom  
 
 
For IMMEDIATE RELEASE 
April 24, 1995 
 
	NEW YORK -- The American Civil Liberties Union today said that the 
"counterterrorism" proposals suggested by President Clinton Sunday evening 
threatened to repeat the mistakes of the past and erode constitutional 
principles that have shaped our society and remain at the core of our 
freedom and liberty.  
 
	The ACLU had earlier commended the Clinton Administration for its 
investigation into the Oklahoma bombing, saying that the massive effort to 
bring to justice those who caused the pain and suffering had proceeded 
without any widespread violations of civil liberties.  The ACLU also said 
that President Clinton's words of caution and restraint as the 
investigation continues were appropriate and welcome.  
 
	Late Sunday, however, the Administration sketched out a new series 
of proposals that the ACLU said would not make us any safer, but would 
inevitably violate the rights of innocent people.  The President proposed 
an extensive list of measures that would make it easier for the FBI to 
infiltrate and eavesdrop on any domestic group by lowering the threshold 
of evidence needed to justify such invasive measures.  
 
	"We must be ever vigilant to prevent criminal activity in this 
country and give our law enforcement officials the powers they need to 
investigate and thwart violent acts and to bring to justice those who 
break our laws," said Ira Glasser, ACLU Executive Director.  "At the same 
time, we must remain true to the constitutional principles that have 
shaped our country and remain at the core of our freedom and liberty," 
Glasser said.  "Too often, we have allowed threats -- whether perceived or 
real -- to tear at the fabric of our free society."  
 
	In past times of tragedy and fear, the government has harassed, 
investigated and arrested innocent people solely because of their race, 
religion, national origin, speech or political beliefs.  In the 1920 
Palmer raids, thousands were improperly arrested and jailed in 33 cities 
as a response to a frightening wave of bombings.  People were summarily 
deported based on their national origin and their political association.  
During World War II, the federal government committed what is now 
universally seen as an act of racism and war hysteria when it incarcerated 
Japanese-American citizens.  In the 1950s, legitimate fears of Soviet 
threats were used to convert dissent into disloyalty.  People were spied 
upon and punished on the basis of political beliefs and associations 
instead of criminal evidence.  In the turbulent 1960s, the government 
again engaged in widespread infiltration and surveillance of organizations 
opposed to the Vietnam war and those trying to win equality for 
African-Americans.  Again, normal standards of criminal evidence were 
abandoned; instead, race and political beliefs became a cause for 
suspicion.  
 
	"We must now try to avoid that same mistake.  The government should 
certainly investigate vigorously based on criminal evidence.  But no one 
should be targeted because they believe in the Second Amendment, or belong 
to far right organizations," Glasser said.  "No matter how much we may 
disagree with some of those organizations, we must not target people 
associated with them in the absence of credible evidence of criminal 
conduct."  
 
	"Just as we must take every lawful step to bring to justice those 
responsible for the heinous crime in Oklahoma, and try to prevent other 
crimes like it," Glasser concluded, "we must avoid the errors of the past 
and make sure to protect the security, freedom and rights of all innocent 
people living in the United States of America."  
 
			--end-- 
============================================================= 
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gopher://aclu.org:6601   | American Civil Liberties Union National Office 
ftp://ftp.pipeline.com /aclu 
mailto:infoaclu@aclu.org |  "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" 
 
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% Subject: FYI: (fwd) Proposed Counterterrorism Measures Threaten Freedom (fwd)
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    You know what is really amazing?  George McGovern and some of his
    clones in the late 60's passed legislation to make the job of the FBI
    tougher...and more difficult to check in on subversive organizations.
    
    Now the same people who decried Constitutional rights of privacy for
    the looney leftists of our college campuses in the 60's now want to 
    extend the power of the FBI.  I find this truly amazing!
    
    -Jack
    
    

        <<< Note 393.426 by BSS::S_CONLON "A Season of Carnelians..." >>>

>   RE: .423  Steve Leech
>   
>   / In just a day or two, Clinton has a "counter terrorism" package ready 
>   / to be sent to Congress?? (!)
>   
>   The bombing in OKC was almost a week ago (and every President keeps
>   advisers, lawyers and writers on staff to handle urgent matters.)

That package had already been sent to Capitol hill before the bombing, and
I will also point out that the purpose of the legislation is to counter 
foreign terrorism.  [Gee, I wonder why that fact isn't discussed much in 
the news reports?]

From what I've read, it is a real piece of "work".  For one thing, one
report I saw stated that the legislation allows foreigners to be deported
in "special" courts based on anonymous testimony.  The accused will have no 
right to cross-examine these secret witnesses against them.

It also calls for the FBI to be given increased authority to monitor credit
card and banking transactions.  We've seen this before.  One week after the
first convictions for the World Trade Center bombing, the Clinton 
Administration floated a proposal to set up an FBI center for monitoring 
credit card and banking transactions to make us all safer.  It was shot-down
big time.  Well, it's back.  Big Brother will start small.

And who will be heading up the task for to write even stronger legislation?
Why, none other than Janet Reno?

Does everyone feel better now?

You mean like Newt Gingrich?

TTom

    
    
    RE: .434  Vikas, perhaps you can provide some examples of your
    allegations?
    
    
    
    Mike

    re: .441
    
    They're all "politicians"!!
    
    They all... repeat ALL, will do what's convenient and politically
    expediant for their personal welfare/career...
    
    
      

    re: ACLU
    
    Now, how 'bout that?  Just when you think all is lost after the likes
    of Dole and Gingrich cave in and fall into the new order without so much
    as a peep of protest, along comes this surprise boost from a most
    unexpected source.  Truth really is stranger than fiction.
    
    Chris

    This affair has turned into a shameless blame fest.  The liberals are 
    blaming "right wing wacko extremist militias".  The conservs are blaming
    "liberal milk fed control mongering governmentistas".  Rush is blaming
    politicians in general for using it as a politcal club to forward their
    own agendas regardless of the side of the fence they are on but mostly
    liberals.  Funny how Mr. Sound Bite is providing such a balanced and
    unselfserving view of the situation as he pontificates who is to blame
    and proclaiming himself correct yet again?  Jesse is blaming "Angry White 
    Males" in general.  The paranoid conspiracy subscribers are blaming the
    very agencies that were blown up for pulling an inside job.  With all
    of the hot air being expended, the flames of unrest are dangerously
    close to being fanned into an inferno, IMO.  
    
    This is a very dark moment in our history as the country comes unglued in 
    the race to place the blame.  Instead of pulling together to address
    the issues regardless of what they are, the bombing is being used as a
    wedge, a club, a rallying cry for those that hold past BATF et al
    victims, martyrs.  I am very frightened, not for more erosion of
    freedoms but by the divisiveness this is causing.  Must I choose a
    side?  Will I be able to trust my neighbors?  I have never really though
    about having a weapon until now.  The problem is I don't relish the
    idea of repelling two antagonists at the same time, the government and
    those that would overthrow it through violence.  I do agree with EDP on
    one point, leave the people (me) alone.  
    
    Brian

    I wonder what happened to EDP's .443?...
    
    Chris

     Close. "Those who give up essential liberty for temporary safety
    deserve neither" Ben Franklin

    .448
    
    he probably got carpet-bombed
    
    ric

                    <<< Note 393.447 by CSC32::C_BENNETT >>>


    I believe that the quote is:

        They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little 
        temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

                                                   Benjamin Franklin 

    The Clinton Administration response would (probably) be:

    1.  We aren't giving up "essential" liberties.
    2.  We will achieve more than a little "temporary" safety.

    I don't agree with this view.  We are already on the slippery slope.

    re: .426
    
    Dole and Newt are committing political suicide along with Clinton,
    then.  People are well-informed today, and the very resurgence of
    Constitutional spirit that outsted so many incumbants in Congress will
    come back to haunt those that have gained from it.
    
    The very same people will out Dole and Newt, too, should they vote to
    increate federal powers that will inevitably overstep individual rights
    (all in the name of security, of course).
    
    Since there is NO connection between the militia and the bombing, why
    the hell is Clinton proposing legislation to crack down on them?
    
    If you don't question this rationale, question this:  how well
    thought-out can a proposal be that was hastily written inside a week,
    without any debate (to hone out a good balance)?
    
    Or has this bill been around before this bombing occurred, and the
    president was just waiting for the right opportunity to ram it through
    as quickly as possible without proper debate?  If so, this brings up
    many other questions as to the intent of said bill.
    
    
    -steve 

    
    
         RE: .331 by Tony Camuso
    
         This note is one of the best of the bunch. I notice that not
         one liberal has addressed it, as they continue to blather on
         about right-wing fanatics, hate-mongers, etc.... Say these
         catch phrases often enough, and pretty soon all conservatives
         are guilty by association, eh?. Reminds me of when David Duke
         was running for Republican office, and suddenly all Republicans
         were KKK'ers.
    
                                                  Bob H.

    <<< Note 393.446 by CONSLT::MCBRIDE "Reformatted to fit your screen" >>>

>   This affair has turned into a shameless blame fest.  The liberals are 
>   blaming "right wing wacko extremist militias".  The conservs are blaming
>   "liberal milk fed control mongering governmentistas".  Rush is blaming
>   politicians in general for using it as a politcal club to forward their
>   own agendas regardless of the side of the fence they are on but mostly
>   liberals.

I think that the liberals and the Media are blaming "ring-wing extremists".
Up until a couple of weeks ago, the term "extremist" was used by Clinton 
and others to describe Conservatives or Republicans.

Conservatives are on the defensive because they can see what's coming.
If "ring-wing extremists" equals "Conservatives", and "ring-wing extremists"
equals "baby killers", then "Conservatives" equals "baby killers".

I'm not much of a Rush fan, but he is right.  This is being used to forward
the Clinton Administration agenda:

    1.  President Clinton yesterday hinted that talk radio is contributing
        to the atmosphere that led to this attack.  Clinton blames talk
        radio for many of his approval problems.  Now he gets a chance to
        put them on the defensive.
    2.  Many in the Media are trying to make any connection they can between
        the bombing and the NRA.  This will help to defeat the repeal effort
        on the assault weapons ban.
    3.  Rep. Schumer (D-NY) announced a new push for more gun control after 
        the bombing to prevent more terrorist acts.  Sounds like opportunism
        to me.  Any excuse to get what he wants.
    4.  Some of the Clinton Administration proposals to combat terrorism
        (e.g. lowering restrictions on wiretaps and monitoring credit card
        transactions) are things that the Adminsitration has tried to get
        in the past, but couldn't.
    5.  Big Government has suddenly become the answer to our problems 
        again.  As if the FBI can do anything about it.  

        By the way, did anyone else notice that the FBI had a major manhunt 
        going for that MI militia leader, but they couldn't find him?  Then 
        a member of the press corps caught up with him at one of his old 
        stomping grounds, and the guy gave a mini press conference.  It
        reminded me of the UN in Somolia trying to kill the war lord.  They
        couldn't find him, but the press got regular press conferences 
        with him.


I also agree with you statement that these are dark times.
Who knows what the results of this hysteria will be.

The main question I believe is how to stop the funding of the
terrorists. If they don't have any funds then they can't buy
the more expensive materials they need to build bombs, and can't
buy weapons and ammunition. First stop the funding at home, then
eliminate funding from terrorist governments like IRAN etc.

Don't entertain any dialogue with terrorists until they prove
that they wish to find peaceful ways to negotiate.

Simon

Oklahoma bombing plotted for months 


(c) Copyright the News & Observer Publishing Co.

New York Times 

WASHINGTON -- Less than a week after the Oklahoma City
bombing, federal investigators have pieced together a
circumstantial case against Timothy J. McVeigh based on his
identification by witnesses, forensic evidence and
correspondence in which he vented his rage at the government
over the deaths of members of a sect in Waco, Texas,
law-enforcement officials said on Monday.

McVeigh himself has refused to cooperate with investigators,
meeting their entreaties to answer questions with a rigid,
stone-faced silence, the officials said. One investigator said
that McVeigh had displayed no reaction even when he had been
shown photographs of maimed and dead children being taken
from the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building.

Much of the evidence implicating McVeigh, who has been
charged with the bombing of the federal building, has
undergone only preliminary analysis so far, but the officials
said it strongly suggested that the bombing last Wednesday was
not an impulsive act by a McVeigh and a band of renegade
malcontents.

Instead, the officials said, they believe the attack was carefully
planned and deliberately timed for the second anniversary of
the FBI's tear gas assault on the compound of the Branch
Davidian sect in Waco on April 19, 1993, and occurred after
months of preparation involving tests of explosives and
discussion about delivery methods and possible targets.

McVeigh's motive appears to center on his extreme anger over
the deaths of more than 80 people in the fiery assault in Waco,
but some investigators are uncertain of his role within what
they believe is a small group of conspirators. Some
investigators doubt that he had the leadership capacity to have
written such a complex plot and theorize that another suspect
will prove to be the ringleader.

As the evidence against McVeigh mounted, the hunt continued
on Monday for the second suspect, a tattooed man who the
authorities say was associated with the Ryder rental truck into
which the bombers packed fertilizer and fuel oil, possibly
using blue plastic barrels. Fragments of barrels have been
found at the bomb site, officials said. Similar barrels,
investigators say, have been found at the Kansas home of Terry
Nichols, an associate of McVeigh who is being held as a
material witness.

Weldon L. Kennedy, the FBI official in charge of the
investigation in Oklahoma City, said the whereabouts of the
second suspect remained unknown. But he added that the FBI
hotline telephone had produced thousands of leads. Other
officials said that the veracity of the leads was being tested by
asking callers to describe the suspect's tattoo. Its design has
been withheld by the authorities.

Among the thousands of telephone calls to the FBI have been
reports that McVeigh and a second unidentified suspect were
observed visiting other federal buildings in other cities before
they selected Oklahoma City for reasons that are still unclear,
officials said. Those reports have not been confirmed.

The search for John Doe No. 2, as the second man was
designated by investigators, began after a rental agent
described him as the man who accompanied McVeigh to the
truck rental office in Junction City, Kan., south of Fort Riley,
the Army base where McVeigh was stationed before his
discharge in 1992.

The inquiry has also expanded to include McVeigh's younger
sister. A search warrant was issued at 7:45 p.m. on Sunday for
a house in Pensacola, Fla., where the sister, Jennifer McVeigh,
21, had been staying and for a 1995 Chevrolet pickup truck,
with a New York commercial tag registered in her name, that
was still parked in the driveway there on Monday night.
Law-enforcement officials said she was close to McVeigh,
shared his antigovernment views and had several conversations
with him in recent months.

The warrant specified that the search sought explosive devices,
bomb-making equipment, manuals related to any paramilitary
groups espousing violence against the government and any
documents showing a connection to individuals believed to be
involved in the Oklahoma City bombing.

Ms. McVeigh flew to Buffalo, N.Y., on Monday, officials at
Buffalo International Airport reported. Local news reports on
Monday night said that she had been taken into custody by
federal agents, but officials in Washington did not
immediately confirm those accounts.

In a March 9 letter to The Union Sun and Journal, a newspaper
in Lockport, N.Y., that serves the McVeighs' hometown of
Pendleton, Ms. McVeigh said the Constitution was threatened
by gun control and alluded to Randy Weaver, the Idaho white
supremacist who was arrested after a siege in which his wife,
son and a federal marshal were killed.

"We need not change our form of government," she wrote, "we
need only return to practicing the form of government
originally set forth by our founding fathers. If you don't think
the Constitution is being perverted, I suggest you open your
eyes and take a good look around. (Research constitutional
rights violated in Weaver, Waco. Also 'Gun Control')."

Pentagon officials on Monday confirmed that McVeigh was an
infantryman and later a gunner in a Bradley Fighting Vehicle
and was awarded a Bronze Star for his service in the Persian
Gulf conflict. Some law enforcement officials said that
McVeigh's Army service had been a catalyst in his evolution
from the adventurous teen-ager from Lockport, N.Y., to
embittered veteran outraged by the government's attempts to
restrict firearms.

If McVeigh's military experiences changed him, there was no
hint of it in the sketchy records released on Monday. He won
the Army Commendation Medal, Army Achievement Medal,
National Defense Service Medal, Southwest Asia service
medal with two Bronze Stars, Kuwait Liberation Medal and
Combat Infantryman Badge. He completed a leadership
development course and was trained as a gunner in a Bradley
Fighting Vehicle.

The Pentagon also said that McVeigh served in the same unit in
the First Infantry Division as Terry Nichols, who turned
himself over to the authorities in Herington, Kan., last Friday
after McVeigh's arrest on bombing charges. Nichols is being
held as a material witness after a weekend search of his house
turned up the barrels and about 30 weapons, including a replica
of an Uzi machine gun. Nichols was separated from the Army
in 1989, about a year after Mr. McVeigh entered the service.

The federal authorities say they are preparing to charge
Nichols and his brother, James, who is in custody in Michigan,
with explosives and weapons charges. But investigators
strongly suspect that the brothers played a role in the bomb
plot, the officials said.

Terry Nichols' former wife has been interviewed by FBI
agents, who are conducting the inquiry in conjunction with
investigators from the federal Bureau of Tobacco, Firearms
and Alcohol. The woman, Lana Padilla, has dropped from sight
in Las Vegas, Nev., a possible sign that she is cooperating and
has been taken to a undisclosed location for security reasons.

Law enforcement officials said McVeigh left behind a large
body of writings about his ideological leanings, including
extensive tracts in letters to friends and relatives, that describe
his belief in the constitutional principles that he adamantly
maintained allowed him to carry firearms and live without any
restraints from the government. Prosecutors are likely to use
such documents to establish his motive at a trial.

But so far, officials said, they have not found any documents
that detail an operational plan for the bombing or provide
evidence of a direct threat, although McVeigh's anger over
Waco is a theme that emerges in writing samples obtained by
investigators.

The investigators are compiling a file of McVeigh's letters and
statements, some of them from acquaintances interested in a
share of the $2 million reward who contacted the FBI hotline.

The FBI is also subjecting McVeigh's known residences and
those of his associates to heavy surveillance to try to learn
more about his activities and in the event that the second
suspect contacts any of McVeigh's friends. For example,
McVeigh's mail, which is being sent to an address in a trailer
park in Kingman, Ariz., is being turned over to agents for
inspection.

Investigators have sought out people who were in or near the
Alfred Murrah Federal building at the time of the explosion.
The interviews have produced witnesses who have identified
McVeigh at a Ryder rental truck parked outside the building at
8:40 a.m. and again at 8:55 a.m. -- about seven minutes before
the explosion. Subsequent identifications came from a lineup
during the weekend and from photographs of him taken since
his arrest.

Investigators are also minutely examining McVeigh's 1977
Mercury, which he was driving without a license plate when he
was stopped within 80 minutes of the bombing by local
authorities. In addition, evidence technicians are closely
inspecting his clothing for traces of explosives.

Kennedy said on Monday that investigators were trying to
obtain images from a videotape that might yield pictures of the
bombers or the truck that carried the explosives. He said that
investigators were trying to obtain images from one such tape,
but other officials said the tape did not include pictures that
would provide defintive proof of McVeigh's involvement.



                      <<< Note 393.452 by CSOA1::LEECH >>>

>   Dole and Newt are committing political suicide along with Clinton,
>   then.  People are well-informed today, and the very resurgence of
>   Constitutional spirit that outsted so many incumbants in Congress will
>   come back to haunt those that have gained from it.

In the short term, people will be begging (bleating) for help.
The old familiar cry will be heard once again: "We have to do SOMETHING."
Dole and Gingrich will hop on the train or get run over by it.
If they don't and if there is another bombing before the 1996 elections,
President Clinton will win in a landslide.

    
>   The very same people will out Dole and Newt, too, should they vote to
>   increate federal powers that will inevitably overstep individual rights
>   (all in the name of security, of course).

I hope you're right, but I don't think so.

   
>   Since there is NO connection between the militia and the bombing, why
>   the hell is Clinton proposing legislation to crack down on them?

They will be the scapegoats.

Militant broadcaster says his group was behind fax 


(c) Copyright the News & Observer Publishing Co.

New York Times 

DEXTER, Mich. -- A custodian who broadcasts a militant
shortwave radio show said Monday that his group was behind a
cryptic fax sent to a Texas congressman the morning of the
Oklahoma City bombing.

Federal authorities visited a production company used by Mark
Koernke on Monday, his co-host said. Authorities took boxes
of files, faxes and videotapes, WJBK-TV in Southfield
reported.

Koernke said Monday that his group sent the fax. He would not
elaborate.

On Sunday, neighbors spotted Koernke and others loading
luggage and boxes from his house into vehicles, then driving
off. Hours later, he picked up a pizza at a diner.

"He was wearing his black fatigues, acting all cocky," said
Mary Motto, owner of Dexter Diner.

Koernke took a personal day and didn't report to his
maintenance job at a University of Michigan dormitory in
nearby Ann Arbor, his supervisor said.

Reporters held a 24-hour vigil across the street from
Koernke's junk-strewn yard, but he didn't return home. He
spoke with reporters in front of the grocery store in this
southeast Michigan town of 1,500 residents.

He said he had contacted the FBI each day since Saturday and
"they've had no interest in talking."

In Monday's one-hour radio program, he and co-host John
Stadtmiller denied any role in the Oklahoma City bombing.

"We do not condone what happened in Oklahoma City because
that was in fact an act of terrorism," Stadtmiller said.

Stadtmiller said during the radio show that agents were at the
offices of Wolverine Productions. He did not elaborate.

FBI spokeswoman Dawn Moritz in Detroit did not return a call
seeking comment on the reported search. Earlier in the day, she
said she could not confirm that federal authorities had dropped
all interest in Koernke.

"We're not in a position to answer that right now," she said.
"We're not giving out a list of people we're interested in
questioning."

The oblique fax sent to the office of freshman Rep. Steve
Stockman, R-Texas, appears to be a report from the scene of
the bombing: "First update. Bldg 7 to 10 floors only. Military
people on scene -- BATF-FBI. Bomb threat received last
week. Perpetrator unknown at this time. Oklahoma."

It carried a time stamp that, if accurate, would indicate it was
sent slightly more than an hour before the bombing.

Stockman's chief of staff Jeff Fisher said the congressman's
office identified the sender as Libby Molley by faxing a note
back to the number stamped on the message and asking the
sender to call.

The relationship between Molley and Koernke couldn't
immediately be determined.

Fisher said he did not believe the fax was sent before the
bombing. The time stamp on the document said 08:59 because
"the time on the fax machine has not been set for daylight
savings time," Fisher said.

Molley could not be located for comment. There is no
telephone listing in the Dexter area under her name.

Koernke, 37, warns of the threat of one-world government and
rails against gun control on the daily shortwave radio show
called "Mark from Michigan," and on a videotape called
"America in Peril."

He also holds regular militia meetings in his home.

Lynn Wilcox, a clerk at the town's hardware store, said she has
seen dozens of men in fatigues carrying guns at Koernke's
home. "We used to call it the army house," she said.

In a February profile of Koernke, the Detroit Free Press said he
preaches that gun control is a prelude to a United Nations
takeover of the U.S. government and says Los Angeles street
gangs are being recruited as part of a secret police force to
disarm Americans.

He signs off each broadcast: "God Bless the Republic, death to
the New World Order. We shall prevail."

Koernke said Monday he doesn't know the three men held so
far in the Oklahoma bombing. Timothy McVeigh is the only
suspect who has been charged; James and Terry Nichols are
being held as material witnesses.

However, South Florida militia leader Bob Johansen of Port
St. Lucie, Fla., told The Associated Press late Monday that
McVeigh and Koernke visited South Florida together about 18
months ago.

Koernke suggested that McVeigh is being framed and that the
federal government accidentally caused the blast.



    
    I'm waiting for President Chicken to call talk radio 'nattering nabobs
    of negattivism'!
    
    Paul
    

Arizona trailer park owner remembered the wrong
man 


(c) Copyright the News & Observer Publishing Co.

New York Times 

KINGMAN, Ariz. -- The man described by trailer park
residents here to investigators and news reporters as Timothy J.
McVeigh was apparently not the man arrested in the bombing
of the federal building in Oklahoma City, but another man, the
park owner said on Monday night.

Compounding the confusion, the park owner said that a Tim
McVeigh had indeed lived for a time at the trailer park some
months earlier.

Agents of the FBI arrived on Friday in Kingman, the last
known address of the bombing suspect. When they arrived at
the Canyon West trailer park, the owner, Bob Ragin, said they
told him not to bother going back through all his records but
specifically to check if he had a tenant arriving in February,
1994 who was just out of the service.

He did indeed have such a tenant, living in trailer No. 19 under
the name of his girlfriend, Ragin said. He evicted the man after
a stormy nine months in which the man played loud music, left
piles of beer cans and a wrecked car by the trailer and
belligerently refused to obey camp rules.

The agents then interviewed Ragin and trailer camp residents
about the man. Residents later told similar stories to reporters.

But on Sunday night, another Kingman resident, Dave Heiden,
called Ragin and told him that he was the man being described
in news accounts.

That sent Ragin back to his records, where he found that Tim
McVeigh -- he had been sure he remembered the name when
the FBI came calling, he said -- had rented trailer No. 11 from
June, 1993 to early September, 1993 for $250 a month.

It is not known if the Tim McVeigh who rented the trailer is
the man under arrest in Oklahoma. A spokeswoman for the FBI
in Washington declined to comment on Monday night.

Ragin and trailer tenants now described the man who lived in
trailer 11, as a nice man, quiet and neat. The trailer residents
said that people there often did not know each other by name.

"He was nothing like the other guy," a clearly embarrassed
Ragin said in his office on Monday night, displaying the rent
records handwritten on ruled green paper. The tenant named
Tim McVeigh "was a nice guy, a model tenant," he said. He
added that the man he incorrectly recalled as Tim McVeigh
"was like you would think" a suspect in a mass killing might
be. "It was like Dave should be Tim and Tim should be Dave,"
he said.

"They were the same height, the same age, they looked alike,"
Regan said, adding that those factors might have confused his
memory.



	.460   aaagagag.  good one.

    >>Man did you miss the point.   The BATF and FBI cronies are 
    >>to overpowered.  Clinton started it when he signed the ban
    >>of weapons, he compounded the issue when they screwed up
    >>WACA and killed innocent children etc...
    
So we are back to the right to bear arms rubbish are we. This
all stems from the collinization of native America. To protect
themselves from (read kill) the indigenous population who were
only protecting thier families, food stocks, and home lands.

    >>Don't you get it - there are alot of average citizen who are really
    >>p*ssed of at the government and frankly don't give a DAM anymore.

Then change the governemnt by democratic means. Using force only 
alienates the thenselves from the populace.

    >>Either the government (as in we the people) gets its act together
    >>or people are going to start to SNAP as in get some of ammonium
    >>nitrate, aluminum powder, and polystyrene soap and make your own 
    >>poor mans nuclear bomb and let yourself be heard!
    
To do what, what do you want the govenment to do.

    >>I am really sad that this issue has came to this but there are 
    >>some people who really believe that the government is too
    >>powerful. 

Why too powerfull. Why have a government if it isn't the most powerfull
body in the country. You don't want a government that each year meakly
asks the population if they would kindly increase thier tax payments 
would you.

Simon

    
    
>You don't want a government that each year meakly
>asks the population if they would kindly increase thier tax payments 
>would you.
    
    	YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    

Former Army buddy remembers McVeigh 


(c) Copyright the News & Observer Publishing Co.

Cox News Service

DAYTON, Ohio (9:20 a.m.) -- To Jamey Crager, Timothy
McVeigh was "the perfect soldier."

He was always punctual, always impeccably dressed, and he rose
through the ranks faster than any of the other soldiers in their Fort
Riley, Kan., Charlie Company. Crager and McVeigh served in the
company together for five years and fought in the Persian Gulf War.

On Saturday, Crager, 28, of New Burlington, awoke to the news that
his former comrade was the prime suspect in the Oklahoma City
bombing. Another of Crager's fellow soldiers, Terry Nichols, was
being held for questioning.

The familiar lanky frame, the familiar solemn face of McVeigh took
on a surreal cast on the television screen.

"I never imagined anything like this - that I could know someone
responsible for the worst act of terrorism in U.S. history," said
Crager, an assistant manager for Ziebart Tidy Car in Centerville. "I
tried calling some of my old Army buddies to see if they're having
as hard a time dealing with this as I am."

Crager couldn't find much out of the ordinary to say about McVeigh
or Nichols when interviewed Monday by an FBI agent from
Cincinnati. McVeigh "loved guns, of course, but he was a country
boy; he had to love guns."

"Terry was a really religious man. They were just super normal
people," Crager said.

He said he hadn't heard from McVeigh in the three years since he
left the service, but he speculated that his personality must have
"taken a dive" during that time.

"Whatever happened must have happened after the Gulf," he said. "I
honestly believe he was of sound mind and sound body while we
were in the service together. There had to be something that threw
his life for such a loop -- this is just not the man I knew."

Crager wasn't aware of any of his fellow soldiers belonging to any
citizens militia groups. Both McVeigh and Nichols have been linked
with such activities.

One day while still in the Army, however, McVeigh showed off a
new prize possession: a "sniper-type rifle" the length of a desk. "He
acted like it was Christmas. I thought, here was someone who was
serious about his weapons."

In the Persian Gulf War, the soldiers were part of the first ground
forces to enter Iraq, Crager recalled. "McVeigh was a gunner in one
of the fighting vehicles; he was literally the point of the spearhead,"
Crager recalled. "His was one of the only vehicles that fired a round
in combat."

It was not intense combat, Crager said. "The Iraqi soldiers were
more hungry than they were interested in fighting. More than 600
surrendered to us in the first hour."

Crager came back from the war and the Army with "a brand new set
of eyes," he recalled. "Before then I was a real pain, rebellious,
someone who just wouldn't listen."

A traumatic experience must have transformed McVeigh's character,
Crager said, but he doesn't believe it happened in the war. "He was
in the same places I was. It was not a Vietnam by any means."

Crager can't believe that the same man who once fought for his
country would be accused of making such a terrible strike against it.
"I keep waiting for someone to say, 'Ladies and gentlemen, we've
made a mistake here.' "

Crager finds it painful, too, to pass judgment on a fellow soldier, a
man to whom he once would have entrusted his life.

"But if it's beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's guilty, he should
die. There's nothing they could do to him that would be enough to
make up for the loss of 250 lives."



    RE: .459 
    
    / Don't you get it - there are alot of average citizen who are really
    / p*ssed of at the government and frankly don't give a DAM anymore.
    / Either the government (as in we the people) gets its act together
    / or people are going to start to SNAP as in get some of ammonium
    / nitrate, aluminum powder, and polystyrene soap and make your own 
    / poor mans nuclear bomb and let yourself be heard!
    
    The more people start to 'snap' like this, the bigger government will
    become in response to it (at the insistence of the rest of the population
    who don't want to get killed because they went to a social security
    office or happened to be on the same street as some targeted BATF agents.)
    
    / I am really sad that this issue has came to this but there are 
    / some people who really believe that the government is too
    / powerful. 
    
    'Snapping' (in the manner you mentioned) is the one thing most likely
    to push this country in the direction that is exactly the OPPOSITE of
    where you want it to go.

from the Boston Herald, 25-Apr

RESCUE WORKER WHO DIED GIVES GIFT OF LIFE

New Orleans - The heart of a resuce worker whoe died while working to save
victims of the Oklahoma bombing was transplanted into another Oklahoma
resident.

The recipient, William Wilcoxson, 55, of Duncan, Okla., was working at a
Louisiana casino when notified the heart was available.

The donor, Rebecca Anderson, died Sunday.  The 37-year-old nurse was taken to
the hospital with severe head injuries she suffered after she rushed to help
people in last week's bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building.

Wilcoxson was told he had two hours to get to Oklahoma City to receive the
transplant.  He requested help from the Coast Guard when he was unabgle to get
their by commercial means, officials in New Orleans said.

Wilcoxson went into surgery at 8 p.m. Sunday and was in stable condition
yesterday according to the Coast Guard.     - AP
    

    
    
>    / Don't you get it - there are alot of average citizen who are really
>    / p*ssed of at the government and frankly don't give a DAM anymore.
>    / Either the government (as in we the people) gets its act together
>    / or people are going to start to SNAP as in get some of ammonium
>    / nitrate, aluminum powder, and polystyrene soap and make your own 
>    / poor mans nuclear bomb and let yourself be heard!
>    
>    The more people start to 'snap' like this, the bigger government will
>    become in response to it (at the insistence of the rest of the population
>    who don't want to get killed because they went to a social security
>    office or happened to be on the same street as some targeted BATF agents.)
    
    	Agreed. The place to make the changes is at the ballot box. I don't
    believe the gent in the former note is suggesting any of these things
    are justified, but that we may see more of them. The circle is
    self-perpetuating....the govt gets more intrusive, folks on the edge
    snap and do something stupid (like blow up a building), the government
    gets more intrusive, more folks snap, and round and round we go....
    
    	We need to vote for change more than ever now.
    
    
    jim

    re: .401
    
    S_CONLON:  I never once said that I was not outraged by what
    has happened in OKC.  It has occupied my thoughts and prayers
    many times over the last few days.  My point was that the children
    who died in Waco were no less innocent than those in OKC.  Somehow
    our government can make "misjudgements" and this makes them not
    responsible for their actions.  If you have gotten your "facts" only
    from the mainstream media then I see where you would feel they way
    you do about Waco.  However, the result was the same......innocent
    citizens were killed in a violent and tragic manner.  I am sickened
    by both situations more than I can find words to express.
    
    -Elizabeth

    RE: .468

    The story I heard on this women -- and I say this without intent to
    demean her efforts -- was that she suffered a brain hemorrhage while
    working in the rescue effort. That's like someone having a heart
    attack; one of those things that just happens.

    Her death was not directly related to the Ok City bombing, other than
    the precipitating event occurred while she was working at the bomb
    site.

    The previous reports that her injuries were due to a fall appear
    to have been incorrect... her fall resulted from having a brain
    hemorrhage.

    -b

    .399 was a dodge.  Suzanne, Paul asked you your opinion of Waco, twice, 
    not because he "doesn't see a difference" between Waco and the OKC 
    bombings (what a rude thing to suggest of one of your peers) but
    because he wants to know if you recognize what many people see as a
    legitimate concern with police-state tactics used against American
    citizens.  Acknowledging FBI and BATF errors in that assault in Waco 
    does not require one to attempt to justify the OKC bombing.  There is
    nothing sinister in the question- just answer it.  
    
    To the larger audience-
    
    One of the most interesting aspects of the bombing that I see now is
    that the media has been forced to bring up Waco and the Weaver cases.
    They had been buried, reported on back pages at best, in recent months.
    Weaver in particular hasn't been on the front page in over a year, even
    though the report indicating possible criminal indictments was only
    handed down late last year.  It was tucked into an internal news
    summaries column in my paper- effectively buried.
    
    I think that the attempted burial of those stories is one of the
    reasons people are so polarized in the aftermath of this bombing.
    Had the newsmedia been doing their job of reporting and keeping the
    heat on for this abuse of power, and the resultant pressure forced the
    administration to curb the BATF gestapo as so many responsible people
    urged them to do, a couple of fruitcakes wouldn't have blown up their
    bomb.  There are an amazingly large number of people who think that
    officials of the US government are responsible for criminal acts in
    those cases; and just like Watergate, trying to bury the story is just
    not going to work.  I don't say this to "justify" any bombings, as some
    of the wilder accusations in this forum might suggest.  I say this to
    hopefully avoid more such incidents.
    
    DougO

    Note 393.459
    
    >Don't you get it - there are alot of average citizen who are really
    >p*ssed of at the government and frankly don't give a DAM anymore.
    >Either the government (as in we the people) gets its act together
    >or people are going to start to SNAP as in get some of ammonium
    >nitrate, aluminum powder, and polystyrene soap and make your own 
    >poor mans nuclear bomb and let yourself be heard!

    I suppose the following two rewrites aren't equivalent to the above
    statement, are they?

    "Don't you get it - there are alot of Middle Eastern citizens who are 
    really p*ssed of at the U.S. government and frankly don't give a DAMN
    anymore.  Either the U.S. government gets its act together or people
    are going to start to SNAP..."

    "Don't you get it - there are alot of average citizens who are really
    p*ssed of at crime and violence and frankly don't give a DAMN about
    `rights' anymore.  Either the citizenry gets its act together or people
    are going to start to DEMAND tougher legislation..."
    
    jc
    

>>      <<< Note 393.473 by SX4GTO::OLSON "Doug Olson, ISVETS Palo Alto" >>>
>>    Had the newsmedia been doing their job of reporting and keeping the
>>    heat on for this abuse of power, and the resultant pressure forced the
>>    administration to curb the BATF gestapo as so many responsible people
>>    urged them to do, a couple of fruitcakes wouldn't have blown up their
>>    bomb.  

    So you think these guys were of the somewhat rational fruitcake variety?

    
    RE: .474
    
    Nope... they're not...
    
    
    Sorry...
    

    
    Why not, Andy?  All three sound like apologist rhetoric to me.
    

    
    Clinton response.
    
    Would it be any different from our past,
    
    Johnson
    Nixon
    Ford
    Carter
    Regan
    Bush
    
    They all look the same to me.
    
    
    

    > So you think these guys were of the somewhat rational fruitcake
    > variety?
    
    I think that if the BATF and FBI had been curbed as a result of public
    pressure that these guys would not have blown up that building.  Does
    this mean I consider them rational?  Not really.  I think that in their
    own little worlds, their own little twisted realities that the visible
    punishment of those responsible for the murders in Waco and in  the
    Weaver case would have been adequate; they would have felt differently
    about whatever it was that compelled them to go out and attack a symbol
    on their own.  Rational isn't the word I'd use.
    
    DougO

    
    RE: .477
    
    They all may sound like "apologist rhetoric" to you, but that doesn't
    make them equal... 
    
      In parsing yes... in content, no...

    It is amazing how the President is able to convince the public that not
    being able to investigate an organization that is apparently not
    involved in any crime is a terrible problem, and that the solution is
    passing legislation allowing the government to investigate even when
    there is no reason to.
    
    How wonderful it is that our government is taking drastic steps to
    prevent this horrible non-involvement in criminal activities from
    spreading.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

Kansas store received requests for fertilizer 


(c) Copyright the News & Observer Publishing Co.

Reuters

HERINGTON, Kan., (Reuter) - A store owner in Herington, Kan.,
said Monday he recently received two requests for large bags of
lawn fertilizer with as much nitrogen as possible -- one of the
ingredients investigators suspect might have been used in the
Oklahoma City bomb.

Jim Otte, part-owner of Sunflower Service, said an unidentified
caller or callers had placed two orders over the past two weeks for
50-pound bags of high-nitrogen fertilizer.

"No one is that particular," he said. "I thought it was a little weird at
the time."

He said he felt the request was unusual because most lawn fertilizers
are made with a mix of potash and phosphate. High nitrogen
fertilizer is usually used for commercial farming like wheat fields
and sells for between $6 and $12 a bag.

Herington resident Terry Nichols, 40, is being held in the Sedgwick
County Jail in Wichita, Kan., as a material witness in last
Wednesday's bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah federal building in
Oklahoma City.

Investigators have said the blast, which killed at least 81 people and
destroyed part of the building, was probably set from a mix of 4,000
pounds of common fertilizer and fuel oil.

Newspaper reports said police found several empty 55-gallon drums
used to hold fertilizer at Nichols' home. Police reportedly also found
weapons in the house and blasting caps and igniters used with
explosives on the property.

Otte said he did not know who the caller was, or if the same person
called both times. Asked if the call was local or from out-of-town,
Otte said: "I assumed it was a local."

Terry Nichols, whose brother James Nichols is also being
questioned, is believed to be a friend of prime suspect Timothy
McVeigh, 27, who was charged with the bombing Friday.

Otte declined comment on whether he has been questioned by
investigators in connection with the fertilizer requests.



 Hopefully everybody who is doing work on their lawn has bought their
 fertilzer already, else there will probably be a waiting period on such
 purchases in the near future.




 Jim

>>      <<< Note 393.479 by SX4GTO::OLSON "Doug Olson, ISVETS Palo Alto" >>>

    Well, first you were talking about curbing the BATF and FBI, and now
    you're talking about "visible punishment".  There's a difference, 
    clearly, but I still think it's a bit of a leap to make any such
    assumptions about whether or not this act of apparent retribution would
    have occurred.  

Civil liberties groups warn of government overreaction 


(c) Copyright the News & Observer Publishing Co.

Cox News Service 

WASHINGTON -- President Clinton's calls for more power to
probe America's paramilitary movement set off alarms Monday
among some civil liberties experts, who warned that a government
overreaction could trample civil rights.

However, Senate leaders promised quick action on a tough bill, and
White House officials insisted that any expansion of federal powers
to combat domestic terror such as the Oklahoma City bombing could
be accomplished without infringing on individual rights.

Gregory T. Nojeim, legislative counsel for the American Civil
Liberties Union (ACLU), said the new legislation amounted to a
"Contract on the Constitution."

Even former FBI Director William Sessions warned of the hazards
of enacting new investigative powers for the agency he once headed.

"We need to approach that very cautiously, because freedom and the
American way of life are synonymous, and we believe in a very
careful approach to law enforcement and to controls that might
impair the protection given to us by the Constitution," Sessions said.

James X. Dempsey, deputy director at the Center for National
Security Studies, a private Washington group that monitors
intelligence policy, said the FBI already has "very broad authority"
to combat terrorism.

Loosening the FBI guidelines invites a repeat of the 1960s, when the
federal government tracked radical leftist groups and trampled on
constitutional freedoms without improving U.S. security, he said.

But White House counselor George Stephanopoulos said concerns
about violations of rights are "absolutely unwarranted" because the
expanded powers of the government are being sought "only in the
context of investigations and operations where there is credible
evidence."

Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah, whose Judiciary Committee plans a
Thursday hearing on ways to stop terrorism, said he and Majority
Leader Bob Dole of Kansas would press for speedy passage of an
anti-terrorism bill.

Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle, D-S.D., said Congress should
give law enforcement agents "the necessary latitude" to combat
terrorism, but said a "delicate balance" would be "uppermost in our
minds."

Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., chairman of the Senate Intelligence
Committee, said there is "nothing inappropriate" about federal
authorities infiltrating terrorist groups or keeping them under
surveillance.

If anything, Specter said, the Justice Department has been "too
timid" in its counterterrorism directives to the FBI.

The administration is asking Congress to expand authority for:

-- Funding a Domestic Counterterrorism Center to be overseen by
the FBI and charged with infiltrating suspected terrorist groups.

-- Giving the FBI power to examine hotel and motel registers and
search phone logs, as well as credit card records.

Those proposals will be added to Clinton's Omnibus
Counterterrorism Act of 1995, which is already moving through
Congress.

That bill would let the government use evidence from secret sources
in deportation proceedings for aliens suspected of terrorist
involvement.

It would also ban fund-raising in the United States for groups the
president deems dangerous and grant the FBI broader power to
wiretap suspected terrorist groups.

James Zogby, president of the Arab-American Institute, a policy
research group, warned that the proposed legislation, had it been law
when the bombing in Oklahoma City occurred, would have produced
"mass roundups" of Arab Americans.

The bill from Hatch and Dole would toughen penalties for acts of
domestic terrorism, add conspiracy to the list of terrorist offenses --
giving law enforcement authorities a way to stop terrorist
organizations as they emerge -- and make it illegal to provide
material support to groups identified by a presidential finding as
engaged in terrorist activities.

ACLU spokesman Phil Gutis said it was difficult to be in the tiny
minority opposing the president in the aftermath of the bombing
tragedy. "I'm just as afraid of terrorism as any American," he said.



    
    the politicians in DC are creating their own fertilizer and shoveling
    it as us by the ton.
    
    can't believe the crap on tv lately.
    
    I got the right to vote-but where are the leaders to vote for?
    
    
    Dave
    
    
    

    That's why I clearly labeled it as opinion with "I think", Di.
    I'm speculating, and I freely admit it.  My understanding of the social
    climate in which this terrible crime occurred suggests to me that it
    wouldn't have, if our press was doing its job, and our public officials
    were being held properly accountable.  Feel free to disagree.
    
    Curbing the agencies visibly for those abuses would of course include
    punishing those who perpetrated the acts.  It is my understanding that
    the government snipers in the Weaver case may still face criminal charges.
    
    DougO

    Re .464:
    
    > Then change the governemnt by democratic means.
    
    Revolution is democratic.
    
    
    Re .469:
    
    > The place to make the changes is at the ballot box.
    
    You CANNOT vote on whether people will be free.  No amount of voting
    will justify outlawing freedom of religion or speech.  The voting booth
    is ONE method of TRYING to preserve freedom; it was intended to allow
    people to control government.  But when the government gets out of
    control and the voting booth is insufficient to reform it, other
    methods are appropriate.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    re: .470
    
    In all honesty, the Waco incident sickens me more.  This was deliberate
    murder by GOVERNMENT officials, as well as deliberate destruction of
    evidence.  
    
    The bombing was the act of one anarchist whose sanity is questionable.
    
    Acts of crazy men, though devastating in this case, are not on the same
    level as premeditated, government sanctioned murder and cover up.  
    
    This difference in scope is staggering.  Terrorism vs. tyranny.
    
    
    -steve

    re: .479
    
    I'm with DougO on this one.  If proper punishment had been given out
    for these travesties, the overall tone of discontent would have been
    lessened quite a bit.  It is the fact that there has been no real
    effort to effect justice that is sending those on the edge, ballistic.
    
    This does not mean they, or the act of bombing the federal building,
    was rational.
    
    
    -steve

<<< Note 393.487 by SX4GTO::OLSON "Doug Olson, ISVETS Palo Alto" >>>

>>    That's why I clearly labeled it as opinion with "I think", Di.

	Not originally.  ;>  And "curbing" doesn't necessarily involve
	punishment, the way I think of it, so thanks for explaining your
	intent more clearly.  It would be nice to think you're right.

    RE: Note 393.484 by PENUTS::DDESMAISONS "person B"

    I absolutely, 100% agree with Doug Olson. If the government
    response to the Waco incident had been different (more timely,
    for one thing), the OK city bombing would not have occurred.
    I do not think it is a leap of logic at all.

    However, I must also point out that the BATF was indeed under
    scrutiny by Congress and hearings were under way which might
    have led to defunding the agency. Whether the OK city bombers
    were aware of this is unknown. (Although, they probably were,
    which makes their action all the more perplexing.)

    Doug's point though is that the level of disenfranchisement
    that led to the bombing could have been prevented by more
    pro-active efforts by the media and the government, but since
    public safety is not (presently) the true agenda of either,
    they showed no interest. Best to focus on the demonization
    of their enemies.

    -b

    
    Been busy, unable to keep up in here....
    
    However, please add my name to the growing list endorsing
    recent notes by DougO. They're right on the mark Doug, you
    cut right to the core of this issue (IMO).
    
    Other than that, this tragedy has been so horrific that I have
    had trouble following it. It just tears my heart out and as such
    I have had to step back from it all.
    
    						Hank

Re: DougO's comments

Me too!

    >>>    That's why I clearly labeled it as opinion with "I think", Di.
    >
    >        Not originally.  ;> 
    
    Sure I did.  Third paragraph of .473.
    
    > It would be nice to think you're right.
    
    In that it suggests what seems to me to be a rational course for the
    government to follow, yes.  In that it seems very unlikely that the
    government will actually follow such a path...well, sometimes vision
    is a curse.
    
    Ah, well.
    
    DougO

    
>>    Sure I did.  Third paragraph of .473.

	You said you thought the attempted burial of stories is one
	of the reasons people are so polarized post-bombing.  Your 
	next statement, about the fruitcakes, was emphatic.  

	But anyways, I think you're right that it _could_ have made 
	a difference.  

    Brian, what on earth do base such an aggressive statement like "the
    bombing wouldn't ever had occured" if some punishment on the ATF 
    had been imposed?
    
    I don't think it's that simple...
    
    I'll even take a stroll on the firing range and say blaming the death
    of the Waco children on the gov't is gross misrepresentaion. The gov't
    was stupid and irresponsible, but I don't blame them for the childrens'
    deaths.
    
    Waco was a disgrace and a travesty. What happened to the Weavers was
    a disgrace and a travesty. What happened in Oklahoma was a lunatic's(')
    action well beyond someone being p.o.'d...
    
    
    ...and to make remarks like the gov't might have conspired and that
    BC is exploiting all of this through his reactions/actions is pretty
    much a paranoid reaction (lemming-like) of all the BC bashers and some
    fringe gov't haters...
    
    Fire away...
    
    Chip

    ok, so, maybe my normal habits of at most one disclaimer per paragraph
    in soapbox was a bit short in this case.  you got me - it could have
    been clearer.
    
    DougO

Good note by DougO in .479.

Replace "OKC bomb" with "riot"
        "Waco"     with "Rodney King"...
        
Funny, but nobody called for broad new police powers and oppressive new gun
laws back then.

    Nice note, Doug.
    
    Mark.

re:  .489

>The bombing was the act of one anarchist whose sanity is questionable.

Really think this cracker had the smarts to do this on his own?
I don't think so.

Cracker?  McVeigh's from upstate NY.  No crackers there.

    A few comments on this report:
    
>(c) Copyright the News & Observer Publishing Co.

>Cox News Service 

>WASHINGTON -- President Clinton's calls for more power to
>probe America's paramilitary movement set off alarms Monday
>among some civil liberties experts, who warned that a government
>overreaction could trample civil rights.

    The alarms should be going up all over, regardless of political side
    you are on.  One thing Americans all share is the desire to be free,
    the desire to see the Constitution adhered to.
    
    The real alarm comes from Clinton himself, who seems to be making an
    unwarrented connection between the bombing incident and militias.  Why
    do they need broader powers?  They don't adhere to their current
    limitations consistently.  Why probe paramilitary groups (that's
    a somewhat slanted term used for "militia")?  They had nothing to do
    with the bombings.  I fail to see ANY logic behind this whatsoever.
    
    The only conclusion I am left with is more fearful than terrorism.
    
>However, Senate leaders promised quick action on a tough bill, and
    
    Which means the will skim over it, overlooking any dubious measures
    hidden within a large text.  They will force it through without due
    process and study, because they are opportunists who want to have the
    appearance of "doing something".  
    
>White House officials insisted that any expansion of federal powers
>to combat domestic terror such as the Oklahoma City bombing could
>be accomplished without infringing on individual rights.

    The only way to combat this form of terroris is to catch and execute
    those who commit these acts.  It would take an Orwellian "big brother"
    approach, taken to the extremes (which is somewhat redundant, I'll
    admit) to put a stop to this kind of terrorism; and then it could not
    be stomped out altogether if a group is determined enough to bomb
    something.
    
    The statement that places "expansion of federal powers" in the sentence
    with "without infringing upon individual rights" is oxymoronic at best,
    and an outright lie at worst.  History proves that the two cannot
    co-exist without the lessening of one, to some degree.
    
>Gregory T. Nojeim, legislative counsel for the American Civil
>Liberties Union (ACLU), said the new legislation amounted to a
>"Contract on the Constitution."

    He's right.  It's a strange day that I find myself in agreement with
    the ACLU.
    
>But White House counselor George Stephanopoulos said concerns
>about violations of rights are "absolutely unwarranted" because the
>expanded powers of the government are being sought "only in the
>context of investigations and operations where there is credible
>evidence."

    I wonder how he defines "unwarranted".  And while we're into
    definitions, I wonder how he defines "credible evidence"?
    
    This gives me the chills, it does.  
    
>Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah, whose Judiciary Committee plans a
>Thursday hearing on ways to stop terrorism, said he and Majority
>Leader Bob Dole of Kansas would press for speedy passage of an
>anti-terrorism bill.

    Dole has no integrity, then.  He is campaigning for
    president already, and will push his party into passing this peice of
    filth legislation to earn political points.  It would seem integrity
    takes a back seat to politics and what is really good for the nation
    and his constituents.
    
>Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle, D-S.D., said Congress should
>give law enforcement agents "the necessary latitude" to combat
>terrorism, but said a "delicate balance" would be "uppermost in our
>minds."

     I would be interested in a few definition here, as well.  We can start
    with "necessary latitude" and "terrorism", then go on from there.
    
>Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., chairman of the Senate Intelligence
>Committee, said there is "nothing inappropriate" about federal
>authorities infiltrating terrorist groups or keeping them under
>surveillance.

    "terrorist groups"?  Who defines this?
    
    Open season on the politically incorrect, it seems.
    
>If anything, Specter said, the Justice Department has been "too
>timid" in its counterterrorism directives to the FBI.

    Waco, Weaver, etc.  If this is timid, I would hate to see boldness.
    
>The administration is asking Congress to expand authority for:

>-- Funding a Domestic Counterterrorism Center to be overseen by
>the FBI and charged with infiltrating suspected terrorist groups.

    You too, can be considered a terrorist if your views are unpopular,
    especially if you organize a group to discuss like views.
    
>-- Giving the FBI power to examine hotel and motel registers and
>search phone logs, as well as credit card records.

    Big Brother is looking at your receipts.  
    
    Doesn't this collide with "privacy" rights?
    
>Those proposals will be added to Clinton's Omnibus
>Counterterrorism Act of 1995, which is already moving through
>Congress.

    So, when in 1995 did Clinton decide we needed a terrorist act? 
    Certainly one bombing (WTC) is not enough to warrent such a bill.
    
>That bill would let the government use evidence from secret sources
>in deportation proceedings for aliens suspected of terrorist
>involvement.

    Anonymous tips may lead to your deportation...and you'll never meet
    yoru accuser, nor have your day in court.
    
>It would also ban fund-raising in the United States for groups the
>president deems dangerous and grant the FBI broader power to
>wiretap suspected terrorist groups.

    Dictator Clinton will not allow fund raising for politically incorrect
    activities/groups.  
    
    You too can be a "suspected" terrorist, as defined by the FBI (who will
    need no evidence to tap into your conversations).
    
>The bill from Hatch and Dole would toughen penalties for acts of
>domestic terrorism, 
    
    Whoa! Toughen penalties?  How??  Is not the death penalty enough?  Or
    are they talking about those who are somehow connected to FBI defined
    "terrorists" in any way?  Scary stuff!
    
>    add conspiracy to the list of terrorist offenses --
    
    This is rather broad.  Conspiracy?  Are they going to haul me off
    because of my views, even though I've never promoted nor condoned nor
    committed any violent act against anyone?
    
>giving law enforcement authorities a way to stop terrorist
>organizations as they emerge -- and make it illegal to provide
>material support to groups identified by a presidential finding as
>engaged in terrorist activities.

    Stop FBI defined "terrorist" groups.  This frightens me.
    
    
    -steve

ZZ    Replace "OKC bomb" with "riot"
ZZ            "Waco"     with "Rodney King"...
            
ZZ    Funny, but nobody called for broad new police powers and oppressive new
ZZ    gun laws back then.
    
    Yes...and the ironic thing was the Korean store owners meant business
    with their guns from that point on.  They proved the need for them!
    
    -Jack

    >Brian, what on earth do base such an aggressive statement like "the
    >bombing wouldn't ever had occured" if some punishment on the ATF 
    >had been imposed?
    
    >I don't think it's that simple...
    
    What I said was "if the response had been different, the bombing
    would not have occurred." I said nothing about punishment. In
    fact, I believe if there had been extensive public hearings,
    immediately after the fact, and if the government did not
    conspire to conceal evidence (which I believe they did), then
    the facts of Waco would have become known, and the festering
    effect that Waco had on a certain disenfranchised portion of
    our population would have been ameliorated. Punishment of BATF
    and other agencies may have occurred, but I do not think it was
    a necessary conclusion.

    >I'll even take a stroll on the firing range and say blaming the death
    >of the Waco children on the gov't is gross misrepresentaion. The gov't
    >was stupid and irresponsible, but I don't blame them for the childrens'
    >deaths.
    
    Some of feel that the government was of equal blame.

    >Waco was a disgrace and a travesty. What happened to the Weavers was
    >a disgrace and a travesty. What happened in Oklahoma was a lunatic's(')
    >action well beyond someone being p.o.'d...
    
    You, and virtually everybody else, are saying the same thing.
    Who are you trying to distance yourself from? The bombing was
    a cowardly, heinous and criminal act. This mantra is becoming
    repetitive.

    >...and to make remarks like the gov't might have conspired and that
    >BC is exploiting all of this through his reactions/actions is pretty
    >much a paranoid reaction (lemming-like) of all the BC bashers and some
    >fringe gov't haters...

    There are many questions about this bombing. Some people (Steve
    Leech chief among them) have pointed out certain areas of
    inconsistency in the government/media story. Some people are
    not buying the media spin hook/line/and sinker. Some people,
    such as myself, got burned by the media spin over this incident
    when we called for military action against the middle east.
    So, we're trying to exhibit a bit of learning by not getting
    hooked/lined/and sinkered again, and thus we become lemmings
    in your eyes... talk about a no win situation!

    And BC, not to mention the entire administration, are mishandling
    this and saying some very _scary_ things. It's not our fault,
    we're not the ones talking about being "reasonable" with
    regard to our civil rights. You've gone past shooting the
    messenger to shooting the listener!

    -b

    Whew, out for two days; HOW did I know that by the time I got back
    to da 'box, the ATF and FBI would be blamed for OKC?
    
    I don't often agree with Suzanne, but I feel she's made valid points
    that many in here do not want to consider.
    
    What happened at Waco was horrible; I was out on STD at the time, so
    I got to watch all the hideous happenings.  However, ya'll keep
    dodging Suzanne's point about the basic difference between Waco and
    OKC......the timeframe.  During the siege leading up to that final
    day, many members of the press, government etc. repeatedly asked that
    Koresh allow anyone (adults and children) to leave if they wished to
    do so.  Many relatives and a spokesman for the Davidians claimed 
    that NO ONE was being held against their will.....
    
    I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid.  The compound was surrounded; I
    would have been scared out of my mind that there was ONE wing-nut in
    either the ATF or FBI whose clock was wound a little too tight and
    that wing-nut would go off and do something stupid.  There was no
    reason for one child to have died in Waco; their deaths are on the
    hands or Koresh or any parents who chose to take their children 
    along with them in their search for matyrdom.  I'm definitely not
    saying the ATF or FBI are blameless; Waco showed them at their worst,
    OKC has balanced that out.  If the perps were looking to do one thing
    that would GUARANTEE that the government would be in their faces from
    here on out, they were highly successful.
    
    I was sitting on the fence regarding the repeal of the assult weapons
    ban; OKC made up my mind.  OK, I KNOW guns were not used here, but
    after watching news clips of some of the Schwartzkopf wannabes in the
    Michigan Militia, I think I'd rest easier at night knowing they won't
    have free access to assault weapons.  One man described as a Brigadier
    General in the MM attained the rank of Staff Sergeant in the U.S.
    Army, the MM has some real military geniuses at the helm!
    
    No one knows where the trail will ultimately lead; people who study
    terrorist groups say that Islamic terrorists typically do no use
    outsiders, but it's not unheard of.  They did use members of a radical
    Japanese group in several past instances.  On the other hand militia
    leaders are falling over themselves to distance their groups from
    McVeigh.  Right now there doesn't seem to be any evidence that any
    militia leader ordered the bombing, but IMO I think a number of them
    knew about it and did nothing.  In my mind that makes them culpable.
    
    I have no problem if a group of men want to get together on weekends,
    wear fatigues, put greasepaint on their faces and play war games
    and shoot some guns.  However, I do think they must accept some re-
    sponsibility if they preach rhetoric that can trigger violence in
    someone who may not be playing with a full deck. (I think it was de-
    termined a long time ago that yelling "fire" in a crowded theater
    was not protected by one's right to free speech).  It's been specu-
    lated by groups who watch these militias that this might be a case
    of some new recruits who thought the leaders were a bunch of old
    farts unwilling to put their rhetoric into action, so they acted them-
    selves and OKC was the result.
    
    Waco was tragic; IMO the ATF and FBI did learn a valuable lesson, I
    don't see them repeating it. If 80 dead, 150 missing (presumed dead),
    plus 400+ injured is considered by many to be no different than 
    Waco, then something is very wrong.  Add up the numbers, if the 
    bomb had been just a little more successfull 700+ people could be
    dead.....does what happened at Waco REALLY justify that?
    

    RE: .470  Elizabeth

    / I never once said that I was not outraged by what has happened in OKC. 

    You made comments about 'the same people who are outraged and upset by
    the OKC bombing' as if this group did not include you.  Glad to hear
    that this isn't the case.

    / My point was that the children who died in Waco were no less innocent 
    / than those in OKC.  

    Their parents had over 50 days to move them away from the danger, though.
    The parents and Daycare providers of the children in the bombing would 
    have been happy for *50 minutes* to get the children out of harm's way.
    They would have done so quite gladly.

    / Somehow our government can make "misjudgements" and this makes them not
    / responsible for their actions.  

    They didn't roll up to a building filled with people (most of whom had
    nothing whatsoever to do with their protest!) to drop off a 5,000 pound 
    bomb and then just drive away before the blast.
    
    They tried to serve a warrant and things went horribly wrong (and yes,
    mistakes were made.)  The Branch Davidians made mistakes, too (not the
    least of which was failing to get the rest of their children to safety.)
    
    / If you have gotten your "facts" only from the mainstream media then 
    / I see where you would feel they way you do about Waco.  
    
    You don't see *anything* about how or why I feel the way I do.
    
    / However, the result was the same......innocent citizens were killed 
    / in a violent and tragic manner.  
    
    The children of Waco were indeed as innocent as the children in 
    Oklahoma City, but the adults in Waco had 50 days to consider their 
    situations (and to do what they could to remove the rest of their 
    children from the scene.)
    
    If only the 'mad about Waco' bomber had given those in Oklahoma City
    the chance to consider *their* situations.  Oklahoma is a Republican
    state, too, so isn't it ironic that most of those killed in the OKC
    bombing probably AGREED with the bomber's anger about Waco...

>                     <<< Note 393.501 by LANDO::OLIVER_B >>>

>re:  .489

>>The bombing was the act of one anarchist whose sanity is questionable.

>Really think this cracker had the smarts to do this on his own?
>I don't think so.

I know a little about the training these guys get. since all the materials
are available at little or no cost and he was trained in building 
munitions it isn't that hard to do. 
A man that won medals in the service is not a total dolt.

BTW in many farming states dynamite and blasting caps are legally purchased
by farmers to clear land. So raiding a working farm and finding blasting caps
fertilizer and diesel fuel is not automatic guilt.
A house in the suburbs might be a different story :-}

Amos

        <<< Note 393.507 by BSS::S_CONLON "A Season of Carnelians..." >>>
                                    -< ... >-

>   If only the 'mad about Waco' bomber had given those in Oklahoma City
>   the chance to consider *their* situations.  Oklahoma is a Republican
>   state, too, so isn't it ironic that most of those killed in the OKC
>   bombing probably AGREED with the bomber's anger about Waco...

Minor point: If the people killed in the blast were a cross-section of 
Oklahoma, then this statement would be true.  However, most of the adults
who were killed were Federal employees -- hardly a representative sample.
I believe that public employees are more likely to call themselves 
Democrats.  At the 1992 Democratic National convention, the majority of the 
delegates on the floor were public employees or representatives of public
employee unions.

    
    
    They went in shooting, Suzanne.

Among the other ironies listed here I note a couple more:

	o  People are warning against broad-brush/guilt by association.

Now where have I heard that before?

	o  the big IF (IF there is evidence to show McVeigh is responsible...
	   IF the MI militia is shown to have had any culpability) whereas all
	   evidence as of right now is circumstantial.

I've said it and I say again: there is a double standard applied in this country.

    RE: .509  Kevin
    
    / Minor point: If the people killed in the blast were a cross-section of 
    / Oklahoma, then this statement would be true.  However, most of the adults
    / who were killed were Federal employees -- hardly a representative sample.
    
    The largest group of adults killed were on the first floor (in the social 
    security office), from what I've heard - and most of these people were in 
    the building as private citizens with appointments with government workers.
    
    Evidently, the office was similar to going to the Department of Motor
    Vehicles (where lots of customers go to meet with a smaller number of
    workers.)
    
    / I believe that public employees are more likely to call themselves 
    / Democrats.  At the 1992 Democratic National convention, the majority of 
    / the delegates on the floor were public employees or representatives of 
    / public employee unions.
    
    After 12 years of Republicans in the White House, a great many government
    agencies still have many Republican workers.

                      <<< Note 393.503 by CSOA1::LEECH >>>

Steve, I'm with you.

The report says:

    But White House counselor George Stephanopoulos said concerns
    about violations of rights are "absolutely unwarranted" because the
    expanded powers of the government are being sought "only in the
    context of investigations and operations where there is credible
    evidence."

If there is credible evidence, then the FBI can investigate now.

We've heard this before.  Wasn't it Ed Meese who suggested changes in the
rules of evidence to make it easier to get convictions in a criminal court?
I can't remember his exact words, but it was something to the effect that:
"Only criminals would be effected, because the police don't arrest innocent
people."


The report also stated:
    
    It would also ban fund-raising in the United States for groups the
    president deems dangerous and grant the FBI broader power to
    wiretap suspected terrorist groups.

Oh, boy.  So if President Clinton declares the Republican Party a terrorist
group, he can order the FBI to wiretap their offices.  Only this time, it
will be "legal".

    RE: .510  Mike
    
    / They went in shooting, Suzanne.
    
    If this is true, then all the more reason to worry about the children
    (and to get them out of there at some point during the next 50 days.)
    
    The Branch Davidians knew the BATF was coming and they took up gun
    positions around the compound to lie in wait for them.
    
    They could have used the extra time to go outside with their hands up
    (and their guns down) to make sure no shots were fired with the children 
    present.

    >What happened at Waco was horrible; I was out on STD at the time, so
    >I got to watch all the hideous happenings.  However, ya'll keep
    >dodging Suzanne's point about the basic difference between Waco and
    >OKC......the timeframe.  During the siege leading up to that final
    >day, many members of the press, government etc. repeatedly asked that
    >Koresh allow anyone (adults and children) to leave if they wished to
    >do so.  Many relatives and a spokesman for the Davidians claimed 
    >that NO ONE was being held against their will.....

    No one is "dodging" this point. Her point may well be valid.
    However, a counter-point has also been made that it may not
    have been as easy to get out of the building as she suggests.
    At least one person who tried to get out of the building was
    shot for doing so. Everyone keeps screaming that the people
    in that building wanted to die (they even claim Koresh said
    so), but I've never heard or seen a quote in print which suggests
    this is the truth.

    But all this is _completely_ beside the real point. The _real_
    point is that the government has done nothing (so far) to
    police itself. If the appropriate action had been taken, the
    bombing most likely would not have occurred.

    >I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid.  The compound was surrounded; I
    >would have been scared out of my mind that there was ONE wing-nut in
    >either the ATF or FBI whose clock was wound a little too tight and
    >that wing-nut would go off and do something stupid. 

    This is _exactly_ why it might not have been as easy to get
    out as you (and Suzanne) would like to believe. There were
    a lot of tightly-wound clocks present, including agents whose
    badges were concealed, and which many people believe were
    deputized members of the so-called "Delta Force", the
    existence of which many people feel is unconstitutional
    (because they would be use of US military assets against
    civilians).

    Also, the use of helicopters and armored personnel carriers
    on the compound was a bit more than a simple goof. "Aw
    shucks, there we go again, making another boneheaded,
    but unintentional of course, transgression of US law..."
    Yeah right.

    >I was sitting on the fence regarding the repeal of the assault weapons
    >ban; OKC made up my mind.  OK, I KNOW guns were not used here, but
    >after watching news clips of some of the Schwartzkopf wannabes in the
    >Michigan Militia, I think I'd rest easier at night knowing they won't
    >have free access to assault weapons.  One man described as a Brigadier
    >General in the MM attained the rank of Staff Sergeant in the U.S.
    >Army, the MM has some real military geniuses at the helm!
    
    Well shucks, you think they look suspicious, they must be
    dangerous, they must be controlled, and by gosh, your
    government better do it by mucking with everyone's civil
    rights. Of course, this begs the rather obvious question
    if this type of mucking about with people's rights was
    part of the problem which led to the OK situation in the
    first place...
        
    >I have no problem if a group of men want to get together on weekends,
    >wear fatigues, put greasepaint on their faces and play war games
    >and shoot some guns.  However, I do think they must accept some re-
    >sponsibility if they preach rhetoric that can trigger violence in
    >someone who may not be playing with a full deck. (I think it was de-
    >termined a long time ago that yelling "fire" in a crowded theater
    >was not protected by one's right to free speech).  It's been specu-
    >lated by groups who watch these militias that this might be a case
    >of some new recruits who thought the leaders were a bunch of old
    >farts unwilling to put their rhetoric into action, so they acted them-
    >selves and OKC was the result.

    Wow, have _you_ swallowed the spin on this or what !?!? Those
    members of the militia who do not espouse being aggressively
    violent are "old farts" and of course the bombers are "lunatics",
    but they're all a bunch of maggots either way... right?

    -b

        <<< Note 393.507 by BSS::S_CONLON "A Season of Carnelians..." >>>
                                    -< ... >-

   > Their parents had over 50 days to move them away from the danger, though.
      
   > The children of Waco were indeed as innocent as the children in 
   > Oklahoma City, but the adults in Waco had 50 days to consider their 
   > situations (and to do what they could to remove the rest of their 
   > children from the scene.)
    
   So it alright that these innocent children paid the price for 
   their parents stupidity? Does that translate to the welfare 
   reform topic as well?

   daryll

    Brandon makes a valid point; the footage of several militias showed
    that they are indeed racists, also anti-Semitic.  They claim they
    are anti-government, but there's a heckuva lot more to it IMO.
    
    Local PBS station showed clips of Klan rallies from the 60's; the
    clothing may have changed, but much of the militia rhetoric remains
    chillingly much the same.
     

    
    
    The klan is not a militia.

        <<< Note 393.512 by BSS::S_CONLON "A Season of Carnelians..." >>>

>   The largest group of adults killed were on the first floor (in the social 
>   security office), from what I've heard - and most of these people were in 
>   the building as private citizens with appointments with government workers.

The "largest group" equals what percentage of the total?


>   / I believe that public employees are more likely to call themselves 
>   / Democrats.  At the 1992 Democratic National convention, the majority of 
>   / the delegates on the floor were public employees or representatives of 
>   / public employee unions.
>   
>   After 12 years of Republicans in the White House, a great many government
>   agencies still have many Republican workers.

It doesn't matter, even after 12 years of Republicans in the White House, 
the percentages at the convention were not affected (compared with years 
past), and civil service is such that the Republicans have little effect on 
the make up of office complexes in places like Oklahoma, even after twelve 
years.

When a new President comes to town he gets to pick several thousand people
to fill key political posts.  The rest rise from the civil service ranks.
One of the consequences in the November elections was that the really good
patronage jobs are now under the control of the Republicans.

    
    
>    Brandon makes a valid point; the footage of several militias showed
>    that they are indeed racists, also anti-Semitic.  They claim they
>    are anti-government, but there's a heckuva lot more to it IMO.
    
    	Oh what utter crap. I guess you missed the show where the head of
    the Ohio militia was on....he's black BTW. Try pulling your head out of
    the media's butt and maybe you'll see things differently....
    
    
    

								25 April 1995

	    Official Declaration of the Santa Clara County
			Liberty Brigade
	    Regarding the Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, bomb-murder.

    We, the members of the Unorganized Militia of the Santa Clara County,
feel it necessary and appropriate to write to the public at large, to the
media companies, and to the political leaders of this State, and of this
Country, that they may have a view of these recent, tragic events not
arising from the commercial media companies and the Politicians of our land.

    The event surrounding the bombing of the Federal Office Building in
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, give us sorrow, and are a cause for grief for many.

    Publicly, we denounce the murderers of the men, women, and children who
were the targets of that bomb attack.  The bombers are guilty of multiple
murder, and are liable for the full penalty of the law.  We hope they, the
bombers, are caught, tried fairly, fairly convicted, and properly punished.

    Publicly, we denounce whatever group, if any, upholds or supports that
criminal act.

    Publicly, we denounce the grandstanding of the press, and their smear
campaign, first upon Arabic peoples, now upon the law-abiding, peaceable
American citizens who are members of legal, and patriotic, miliitia groups.
    First, there have been a few arrests, but no convictions.  Under the
American System of Jurisprudence, the accussed are innocent until proven
guilty.  No guilt has been proven, so the smear campaign by the commercial
media companies is verbal vigilantism.  To do so in the context of persuing
those allegedly guilty of violent vigilantism is hypocracy.
    Second, the central target of the smear, the Milita of Michigan, is to be
praised for having detected and denied membership to the accused, and for
having expelled them from among their ranks, which they did several months
ago, upon discovering that they, those who are now the accused, were
advocating violent, war-like acts against the United States, such as a
bombing attack like this one. Not only did the Militia of Michigan expell
those preachers of violence, they alerted the F.B.I. of their names and
conduct.  Why the F.B.I. did not pay sensible attention to this tip is
unknown.  Between the two, the press should be lambasting the F.B.I. for
a possible serious breach of duty, and leaving the Miltia of Michigan alone.
    Third, the Militia of Michigan is unconnected in any way with the other
militia groups, whether in Michigan, or in any other State, and to smear all
the militia groups with the label that the criminals have earned (and the
accused were never actual members of the Militia of Michigan) is no
different from smearing all Jews as though they were somehow responsible for
the Holocaust.  It is irresponsible to do either.  No sane mind can look
upon the guilt of the guilty, and assign that guilt to other people.
    Fourthly, the accused, (presuming guilt for one brief argument) are
employees of the Federal Government, Department of the Army.  If
guilt-by-association has any merit, we should be clamoring for the disbanding
of our Armed forces and all Federal and State enforcement agents.

    Publicly, we repudiate all public and elected officials who have been
taking advantage of this tragedy for the advancement of any personal
political agenda.  This crime is proper grounds for hunting down, finding,
trying, convicting, and punishing the guilty.  It is not proper grounds for
shreading the liberties of the other 260 Million Americans, who are not
guilty of this act.  Should it be necessary or helpful, we, the militia
organizations of the United States, would faithfully and dutifully assist
the hunt and capture of the criminals committing these, or similar, dreadful
deeds.  We are certain that nearly all Americans would dutifully and
faithfully help to bring such evil men down.

    Whatever connection was in the minds of the culprits who performed this
evil deed, between this deed and the tragedy at Waco, we denounce the
defective reasoning that excuses murder because of possible murder, burning
because of burning.  That way lays Chaos and Mobocracy, and we want none of
it!

    Another factor of this tragedy that gives us grief is the thoughtless
blather of imposing new restrictions upon all innocent, trustworthy, Americans
as a reponse to this crime.  We call for a moment of reflection:
    What restrictions, if established and enforced, starting, say, on the
first of this year (1995), would have rendered this attack impossible?  One
half ton of fertilizer, 68 pounds of diesel fuel,  a rented truck, and a
lunatic or five...  What restrictions would be adequate for catching this?
Only yearly psychological exams for all Americans, and block-by-block
car-and-truck-and-purse-and-briefcase searches every day of the year in
every city and town of this Nation, could hope to suffice.  We oppose any
suggestion that America become such a hostile and suspicious nation.  We,
as a nation, spent Trillions of dollars and 4 decades resisting the spread
of this style of suspicion and distrust in other lands.  To impose it upon
ourselves would make little sense.
    We are the Land of the Free, and facing some danger is a requirement to
enjoying some liberty.  Therefore, we denounce the tone and content of the
'reporting' on the airwaves and in the papers that amount to little more
than a terror-oriented attack on our Civil Liberties.

    Lastly, we wish to air a worry that we fervently hope is clearly and
quickly disproven: This bomb attack may have had 'inside' (meaning BATF/FBI)
 help.
    1: Watching the news and reading the papers, we note that the degree of
damage to nearby buildings sems low, considering the damage done to the
Federal building.  In particular, the building directly across the street
should have been razed by the blast that caved in the front of the Federal
building. The cars nearby should have been scattered like leaves. The front of
the building seems to have blown *out*, more than *in*. Unconfiremed reports
declare that the Oklahoma City University geology department seismograph show
*two* distinct bomb-blasts. Yes, this attack registered like an earthquake. It
seems to have registered as *two* earthquakes. We want to see a thoughtful
investigation of the matter.
    2: Looking at the damage, the building seems to have been cut with
carefully-placed demolition charges, rather than hit with one ANFO
pressure-wave.
    3: We wonder at the speed of the annunciation of the bomb being an ANFO
device (before any bomb-lab chemists were on the scene), and of the arrest of
the first suspect practically before the rubble had stopped bouncing. This
suspect has tell-tale signs of being an overly-obvious perfect suspect, and we
consider that things too good (or easy) to be true usually are not true.
Maybe Lee Harvy Oswald had no help murdering J.F.K., maybe this bomb was just
a dumb lunatic or five... we want to see a thoughtful investigation.
    4: We make no specific accusations, and we recoil from the thought that
Federal agents blew up their own building and their co-workers children with
the same revulsion we have at the thought of the FBI and/or BATF participating
in the burning of the Waco complex with the Davidian children inside. We make
no specific accusations, we call for a careful and thorough investigation.


		Signed: Brian T Brunner, press scty,

		Santa Clara County Liberty Brigade

		Lawful, Patient, Faithful, Caring.

Views You Can Use - April 25, 1995 - Matt Rearwin

	The Oklahoma City tragedy has exposed an ugly, divisive, and 
un-American opinions in our nation.  At a time when the major media players
ought to be bringing our citizens together, the media seems to be rejoicing
in the blood shed, and in the subsequent recriminations of citizens concern-
ed with their nation.
	Today, ABC's Good Morning America presents us with a "cult expert" who
states that the numbers of people needed deprogramming for their political
views is vast, and nationwide.  Gosh, I thought we discredited the idea of
Soviet style political re-education.  Among the symptoms requiring treatment 
are taking views critical of the Federal Government, or thinking that there 
are conspiracies at work behind the scenes.  (My personal view is that it is 
nothing more than old fashioned greed and privilege at work.)
	But regarding the conspiracies, there are several things that need to 
be said.  It wasn't my supposed paranoia that put the President's left-handed 
lawyer, Vince Foster dead in Ft. Marcy Park with a gun he wasn't known to 
have possessed in his right hand.  It's not my lack of faith that blew up 
the President's Marine Corps guards.  My psychological profile didn't create 
Army memorandums questioning the legality of BATF actions in Waco, months 
before the attack.  And I can't see how a conservative conspiracy has made 
the liberal United States Attorney General for the Democratic Johnson 
Administration, Ramsey Clark, come forth and state that Davidians were 
murdered by Federal agents, and provide evidence to that end.
	It's not my imagination that broadcast CBS radio's Charles Osgood 
show this morning.  He had on a spokesman from Boston Political Analysis 
who stated that these militia groups treat the United States Constitution 
as a holy writ.  This spokesman went on to say that the Constitution is a 
"weird document" anyway, and that these conspiracy theorists think that the 
Constitution is in danger of being scrapped.  Yeah, well if it's so "weird", 
why do we have millions of military & law enforcement personnel as well as 
elected officials swear an oath to uphold and defend it?
	The Constitution, approved in 1789, is so close to being dispensed 
with, that even NPR is reporting it.  Only two more states are needed to pass 
resolutions calling for a Constitutional Convention.  That would allow 
appointees to create a new Constitution for our nation, and eliminate the 
items that they don't like in our current one.  I don't know about you, 
but I wasn't asked.  I like the Bill of Rights.
	These "Big Government" people think that the Oklahoma tragedy shows 
that we need government control of the Internet.  But it was that government 
that trained McVeigh to build improvised munitions in the Special Forces.  
It's that same government that has downsized the military, and distributed 
those Special Forces explosives manuals to the military surplus stores.  If 
anything needs to be regulated, it's  "Big Government".
	These militias, and the number of citizens holding cynical views of 
the government are not the problem.  This is merely a symptom, a reaction, to 
the fundamental problem.  The problem is a government not responsive to the 
citizenry, and badly attempting to cover up its mistakes.

    RE: The racist angle

    You've already been there and done that, so to speak. Horror
    of horrors when the libs were having a talk-show feeding frenzy
    on the  militias and invited the head of one to appear on the
    show... and he was African American! Oooops.

    -b

    
    RE: .520,.523
    
    The answer's simple really... 
    
    He's an "Uncle Tom" and not worth the newsprint...
    

    
    Re: > He's an "Uncle Tom" and not worth the newsprint...
    
    C'mon Andy, that really isn't warranted.
    

    
    <-------
    
     >C'mon Andy, that really isn't warranted.
    
    
     I haven't been able to come up with a "sarcasm" face to put in when
    it's obvious...
    
      I was hoping it was obvious...
    

    Takes the wind out of the "white supremacist" angle, doesn't it?
    
    So what's with this rush to demonize a group for this bombing, anyway?
    First it was "middle eastern" types. Now it's militia types, with a not
    so subtle smear of all gun owners (despite the fact that guns were not
    used here.) In the end, we'll probably find out that the guys who did
    this had been in a militia at one time, but their radical views branded
    them as outcasts, and they did this on their own. So guess what group
    will be duly demonized then?

    
    	Well, if they didn't have bombs then they would have had to use
    	guns.
    
    	I say make bombs illegal!!  Oops, they already are!!  How come it
    	didn't prevent the bombing??
    

    
    re: .528
    
    >How come it didn't prevent the bombing??
    
    Because it wasn't on the list of "assault-looking bombs"??
    

Re:  .508

>There seems to be some synsytyvyty around the usage of the
word 'cracker'.

In an earlier note I questioned whether the ALLEGED suspect
Timothy McVeigh had the intelligence to carry out this bombing
on his own.  

When arrested he was carrying an unregistered gun, correct?
He was speeding, correct?
There were no licence plates on his car, correct?

Maybe he should have hung a sign on the back of the car:

             YUP, I'M A SUSPICIOUS CHARACTER.

I would also bet (I said bet) that ol' Tim isn't that fond
of non-white folks, Jews, or anyone else who is different
from him.  Yes, a gross assumption - but probably a good bet.

    RE: .515
    
    / However, a counter-point has also been made that it may not
    / have been as easy to get out of the building as she suggests.
    
    A good number of people (including many children) *DID* make it 
    out of the building, though.
    
    All the children who were not fathered by David Koresh made it out,
    as I understand it.  His children could have gotten out, too, if
    he'd wanted them to get out.
    
    / But all this is _completely_ beside the real point. The _real_
    / point is that the government has done nothing (so far) to
    / police itself. If the appropriate action had been taken, the
    / bombing most likely would not have occurred.
    
    This is no point at all.
    
    Anyone who is violent enough to kill hundreds of people to vent his
    anger at others could have been willing to kill them for a 'self
    policing' that didn't go quite far enough, though.  For example, if
    the BATF agents hadn't been drawn and quartered with their entrails
    left to rot in the desert, it's possible that Timothy McVeigh would
    have believed that he needed to extract his own brand of 'justice'
    ANYWAY.

    
    	So, is anyone really that stupid, or was he actually trying to
    	get himself bagged for some reason?  There could be something
    	to that, I think.
    
    	Like maybe a few pounds of fertilizer stuffed up his butt that
    	could explode at any time.  [Probably not, but you get the idea.]
    

re:.517,.520,.523

You miss my point.

I'm comparing what reactions I see now vs reactions in the past.

The Rodney King beating for example. I'll never forget the justifications for
that one. The Susan Smith sweeps are another. A cop kills an unarmed kid in the
ghetto and it's automatically...on paid leave while investigations are
conducted. And life goes on.

Also it is ironic to see the alarmist reactions of the measures being proposed
when, as a posted article in this string recalled they've been with us
throughout the century: surveillance and 'extended' police powers.

Now that it is finally hitting the "mainstream" everyone's "up in arms".

(Finally, skin color does not definitively define an individual).

These are the ironies to which I refer.

>Takes the wind out of the "white supremacist" angle, doesn't it?

No it doesn't. "Uncle Tom" is a misnomer (from various articles I've read) --
Harriet Breecher Stowe did not create a stereotypical, kowtowing, dupe of a
character but an individual who rose above the constraints and pressures
of his time to care for others; as I understand it to elevate the perception of
slaves.

That is not to say those individuals do not exist.

    I believe the U.S. Constitution allows for a "well regulated" militia.
    
    I do not think you can regulate a militia unless you have knowledge of
    its makeup, activities, members, etc.  It would seem to me that the
    founding fathers knew that organized, armed groups would have to be
    monitored.  That is why they spelled out "well regulated" in the
    constitution.  All the talk from the militias about infiltration,
    spying and such by the government is a lot of bull.  The militias
    complain about infringement on their rights, but the constitution
    clearly states that they are to be "REGULATED".
    

    RE: .535

    You might want to refer back to a number of documents from
    the period which use the word "regulated" synonymously with
    "equipped" (or in the case of a militia, one might say
    that "equipped" is synonymous with "armed".)

    Ships logs from the period often refer to "regulated" with
    regard to rations and supplies.

    I will also remind you that in present day usage, a well-
    regulated militia could just as well be one that takes
    a dump at the same time every day. Regulation does not
    mean big brother needs to stick his ugly nose in.

    -b

    
    In the usage of American English at the time the 2nd Ammendment was
    written, 'regulated' meant 'equipped', 'knowledgeable'.
    
    Paul
    

    RE: .532  Sean
    
    / So, is anyone really that stupid, or was he actually trying to
    / get himself bagged for some reason?  There could be something
    / to that, I think.
    
    He almost got away, though, remember - he was only 30 minutes from
    being released on bail (for the traffic stuff) when it was stopped
    so he could be questioned by the FBI.
    
    It may not have been unusual for him to drive around without plates
    (as part of his general 'protest', or whatever.)
    
    / Like maybe a few pounds of fertilizer stuffed up his butt that
    / could explode at any time.  [Probably not, but you get the idea.]
    
    Maybe he thought the computer chip in his butt would warn him (sorta
    like a radar detector.)  Who knows?

    
    Anybody know if McVeigh is a member of the NRA?
    
    If he is, its only a matter of time before the network media starts
    another smear campaign. With the help of some politicians, of course.
    
    Paul
    

>    Anybody know if McVeigh is a member of the NRA?
    
National Rivers Authority?

Chris.

    
    1965-1970
    1995-2000
    
    I just wonder if we are all in for another rollercoaster ride.
    If you were around back then, you know what I mean.
    Newsreels don't do it justice. It was a bad time. 
    
    Things are getting very strange again.
    
    Dave
    

    .539
    Yeah, that was my first thought about McVeigh: one less NRA member.
    

    > Yeah, that was my first thought about McVeigh: one less NRA member.
    
    Didja ever wonder how many of the victims might have been
    NRA members as well? After all, this was Oklahoma!
    
    -b

    I don't have my head up the media's butt; I was referring to
    films from MM meetings.  Kornke's words saying there will another
    Waco over his dead body (as he pounded the lecturn) spoke for
    itself.
    
    Most (not all) of these so-called militias spew hate for one group
    or another.  My reference to the Klan was to point out the today
    the Klan is rather powerless; men who might have gravitated toward
    the Klan in the past, now seem attracted to SOME of these militia
    groups.
    
    

    
    RE: .544 ...Most (not all) of these so-called militias spew hate for
             one group or another...
    
    How do you know this? Is this speculation or do you have evidence
    supporting this statement?
    
    Paul
    

    
re:                     <<< Note 393.535 by MIMS::SANDERS_J >>>
>                             -< "Well Regulated" >-
>    I believe the U.S. Constitution allows for a "well regulated" militia.
    
    
    	<sigh> I do get tired of explaining this all the time.
    
    	Go to note 21. Read the replies. If'n you'd like, I'll send you
    copies of all the 2nd amendment data I have on hand. Hope you have a
    lot of disk space....:)
    
    	As was explained before, look at the definition of "well regulated"
    during the time of the writing of the bill of rights.
    
    jim

    I listened to some of the talk radio today here in L.A. and you
    should hear the "hate-mongering" that is being spewed forth against
    anyone who dares to question our government,owns a gun or doubts
    anything about what occured at Waco (to name a few...). The common 
    label applied to anyone who might fall into one of the categories 
    above is "mental patient" among others. 
    
    All I have to say is y'all better be real careful who you share
    your opinions with.  It doesn't take a leap of faith to see where
    someone who has a beef with you could call the Feds and next
    thing you know you're under surveillance for your "anti-government
    sentiments".  (Of course we all know that distrust of any aspect of
    government means you're a potential terrorist .... right?)
    
    I think there must be a blue moon out tonite....I agree with DougO's
    replies and the ACLU........
    
    Elizabeth
    

 "Its a big ol' goofy world"



                          John Prine

re: .503
    
>>However, Senate leaders promised quick action on a tough bill, and
>    
>    Which means the will skim over it, overlooking any dubious measures
>    hidden within a large text.  They will force it through without due
>    process and study, because they are opportunists who want to have the
>    appearance of "doing something".  
    
Plus they expect to be the ones benefiting from the "tougher" laws in
two years time.  The Republicans plainly think Clinton is dead meat and
that the Republican nomination will be equivalent to the next President.

One of the constant questions on 'alt.conspiracy' is "who benefits from
this?"  (With the implied answer: "not the militias!")  I think the
Republicans could be the big beneficiaries, considering as they now
appear more like the "sensible center" between the paramilitary right
(which openly lumps Dole and Gingrich in with Clinton as "traitors"
and even refers to Rush Limbaugh (!) as a "toady" of the power elite)
and Clinton and his party, which seem fast heading for permanent
minority status like the Whigs.  So they get to "act responsible" (by
rushing through Clinton's request for rights-abridging powers with
the excuse of this bombing) and THEN, two years from now, they get to
be the ones who USE these same powers as they see fit.  Now if that
isn't having your cake and eating it too, i don't know what is!

- paul

    There is a moment of silence scheduled to remember the victims
    of the OKC bombing at 9:02 CDT today.  
    
    -Elizabeth

    Something just occurred to me... perhaps the "John Doe number II"
    (who's in deep number II if they ever find him), is vapor now.
    Maybe the perps didn't just park the truck and drive away in
    another vehicle. Maybe one of them pulled a Beirut (i.e., they
    were in the vehicle when it exploded).

    Bomb experts have speculated that some people, namely those
    unfortunate enough to be walking on the street when the bomb
    went off, will never be identified as victims... they're
    pretty much rain cloud fodder now. Maybe JDII was one of
    them.

    -b

Pretty sad stuff. Militia leaders whould could not articulate any intelligent
position. Towns folk fearing the militia (what did they do to cause fear?),
and a bunch of questions from Brokaw that could have started real conversation
on real issues; an opportunity not taken advantage of.

Pretty sad commentary ...

Doug.

>    Something just occurred to me... perhaps the "John Doe number II"
>    (who's in deep number II if they ever find him), is vapor now.

No, John Doe II is an undercover BATF agent who was there to ensure
the success of the mission.  He scadaddled after he set McVeigh up
with the unlicensed getaway vehicle.

Patriots unite.  Don your fatigues and fight.  

    Re: .548
    
    >All I have to say is y'all better be real careful who you share
    >your opinions with.  It doesn't take a leap of faith to see where
    >someone who has a beef with you could call the Feds and next
    >thing you know you're under surveillance for your "anti-government
    >sentiments".  (Of course we all know that distrust of any aspect of
    >government means you're a potential terrorist .... right?)
   
    >Elizabeth
     
     Last night Barney Frank, Clinton's point man to guide the new
     anti-terrorist legislation thru Congress was asked the very
     question on a local talk show in Boston area. Barney's response 
     was that FBI's proposed anti-terrorist unit with increased
     infiltration powers will not be able to have everyone under 
     suveillance for lack of manpower.

     There you have it. All of us should now feel assured that our 
     rights and freedoms will be safe because FBI does not have enough 
     surveillance manpower.    

I'm out the door to sign up with the MinutePerson Militia.

    Oh great...let's continue to bastardize the English language.
    

    > I'm out the door to sign up with the MinutePerson Militia.
    
    Cool with us as long as you don't come back until you
    find them...
    

The only thing that troubles me is where do I find
those cool camouflage fatigues and boots that they
were?  Or are they issued to you when you join up?
And how much beer do you have to drink to get one
of those pot bellies?  

    
    
    	cool camo can be picked up at the army/navy store, along with the
    boots.
    
    	beer? about a 6pack of green-death and you'll fit right in. ;*)
    
    jim
    

FBI says second Oklahoma bomb suspect may be dead


(c) Copyright the News & Observer Publishing Co.

Reuters

OKLAHOMA CITY (9:14 a.m.) - Federal agents are investigating
whether the second suspect in the deadly Oklahoma City blast was
killed when the two-tonne bomb went off, an official source said on
Wednesday.

"It's an active theory," a law enforcement source told Reuters.
"That is one reason why they are so closely examining pictures
from the area -- he may have got caught by the explosion."

The official death count rose early Wednesday to 93, including 14
children. An estimated 135 people are still missing.

The source said it is routine in bombings to see whether the bomber
was killed in a blast, but said in this case, "unidentifiable body parts
and heavy damage all around the area has made it more difficult to
be certain."

Only one person -- Gulf War veteran Timothy McVeigh -- has
been directly charged in the blast, which exploded last Wednesday,
almost demolishing a nine-floor federal building.

A surveillance camera's tape -- damaged by last Wednesday's
blast -- is being scrutinised because it may show the truck that
carried the bomb and the suspects.

The source said publicity about a second suspect has been so
intense it would be very difficult for the man to move around in
public.

Federal authorities issued a new sketch of the dark-haired,
tattooed man on Tuesday, this time showing him in a baseball cap.

"Either he doesn't know anybody or he's dead, is what some of the
guys are speculating," said the source.

McVeigh, 27, was being held in a maximum security prison on the
outskirts of Oklahoma City.

Several media reports on Wednesday said investigators found
traces of ammonium nitrate, an ingredient of fertiliser, on
McVeigh's clothing and in his car. Experts believe the bomb was
made primarily of fertiliser and fuel oil.

McVeigh was listed on Tuesday as a co-conspirator in federal
charges filed in Michigan against farming brothers James and Terry
Nichols.

The charges were not linked to the Oklahoma bomb.

James Nichols, 41, and Terry Nichols, 40, are reported to have ties
to the Michigan Militia, a paramilitary group which is part of a
pro-gun, anti-government movement operating in several states.

An FBI affidavit released with the charges alleged that McVeigh
and the Nichols brothers experimented with making bombs. It said
James Nichols held extreme, right-wing views and despised the
U.S. government.

CNN reported that McVeigh, a former soldier, was refusing to
speak to authorities, claiming he was a political prisoner. It said
McVeigh would give only his name, rank and Army serial number
-- the information a prisoner of war gives his captors.

High winds slowed the search for the missing people who may have
been trapped inside the Alfred Murrah federal building when the
bomb exploded.

Several times workers were told to clear the area because winds
were whipping loose debris from upper floors down onto people
digging through a 300-ton pile of debris on the ground in front of the
shell of the building. 

    
    
re: .559
    
        
    You can find them most anytime at any flea market or Army surplus
    store..
    
     You'll have to work on the pot belly yourself... beer won't do it
    all..
    

Bombers thought militias to be too tame 


(c) Copyright the News & Observer Publishing Co.

Fort Worth Star-Telegram 

They may harbor the same rabid hatred for government, but those
behind the Oklahoma City bombing might have found the militia
movement too tame and decided to take action on their own,
according to people who track extremist groups.

Terry and James Nichols, two brothers detained as material
witnesses in connection with the April 19 explosion, spoke at
Michigan Militia meetings but were removed because of their
"anarchist rhetoric," the militia's state commander, the Rev. Norm
Olson, said. The brothers were charged Tuesday in Michigan with
conspiring to make explosives.

"They may have gone to several meetings and decided the militia
wasn't radical enough or they might have been active somewhere
else," said Mark Briskman, the Dallas-based representative of the
Anti-Defamation League of the B'nai B'rith.

There have been other radical movements for years, all generally
claiming strict adherence to the Constitution. But the "unorganized"
militia movement launched with formation of the Michigan Militia in
April 1994 has spread to 20 states, said Briskman, whose
organization released an in-depth study of the militia movement in
October.

Ralph Turner, 57, the Denison-based spokesman for the Texas
Constitutional Militia, said militias of one sort or another are active
in all 50 states with "20 million people attending meetings."

The figure could not be corroborated, and outside experts said it
was highly exaggerated.

The downside of the movement's rapid growth during the past year,
Turner said, is "that you are going to have a lot of loose cannons.
The odds would suggest it."

But anyone espousing racism or violence cannot join the militias,
Turner said.

"We have barred more than one person from coming to militia
meetings, and have told them they cannot say they are a part of the
militia movement," he added. "That's not to say there aren't some
splinter groups that hold those views."

Just how radical are the militias?

John George, 59, a political scientist at the University of Central
Oklahoma at Edmund, said the movement is a relatively new
phenomenon whose followers -- unlike the Ku Klux Klan and the
white supremacist Aryan Nation -- "don't have a single set of
right-wing ideologies."

"The militias have people who don't have any ideologies at all --
people worried about having their guns taken away from them," said
George, co-author of the 1992 book, "Nazis, Communists,
Klansmen and others on the Fringe: Political Extremism in
America."

"They will have a few libertarians who don't trust anybody anyway,
a few right-wing anarchists who just want to be left alone. And
then of course, this kind of group is going to attract the right-wing
Christian nationalist, like the Aryan Nation or Aryan Resistance
types, the intense white racial nationalists."

The Oklahoma scholar said as many as one-fourth of militia
members could be considered racial nationalists.

George suggested that those responsible for the Oklahoma City
bombing might have touched base with militia units that share a
general far-right fear that federal agencies plan to seize personal
weapons and that the 1993 raid on the Branch Davidians was
"proof" of that. But they might have found the militia's defensive
posture not to their liking, he said.

A federal affidavit filed Tuesday in Milan, Mich., said Daniel
Stomber, a Michigan acquaintance of James Nichols, heard Nichols
saying " 'judges and President Clinton should be killed,' and that he
blamed the FBI and the ATF for killing the Branch Davidians in
Waco," according to The Associated Press.

The racist segment of the right-wing has shrunk since the early
1920s when the Klan attracted 2 million members out of the
nation's 100 million population, George said. Today, in a nation of
260 million, he said there are fewer than 5,000 Klansmen. Other
armed right-wing extremists number fewer than 10,000, he said.

But he warned, "It doesn't take many to set off a bomb.

"In these groups, very few people would do this act that this man
(Timothy) McVeigh is accused of doing," George said.



re .562:

What's the News & Observer Publishing Co.?  The article spells ton both
the British and U.S. ways.  It also uses the British spellings "scrutinised"
and "fertiliser."

     re: .565
    
    	don't know who they are. they have a web site at
    http://www.nando.net and post these articles....
    
    
    jim

Agencies disagree on new measures to counter
terrorism 


(c) Copyright the News & Observer Publishing Co.

New York Times 

WASHINGTON -- Sharp differences between the Justice
Department and the Treasury Department are hampering the
Clinton administration's campaign for broad new powers to
investigate and monitor organizations suspected of plotting terrorist
attacks, law-enforcement officials said Tuesday.

The administration is scrambling to flesh out its proposals in time
for a Thursday hearing by the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Administration officials said Tuesday that the Federal Bureau of
Investigation and its parent agency, the Justice Department,
wanted new authority to monitor, investigate and infiltrate groups
suspected of planning terrorist attacks. But they said that the
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and its parent agency, the
Treasury Department, saw less need for new powers and believed
that their existing authority was adequate.

On Sunday in Oklahoma City, President Clinton condemned the
bombing of a federal office building there and said he would seek
broad new powers to combat terrorism. Although civil liberties
groups said they feared a return to government abuses like the
harassment of Vietnam War protesters in the 1960s, members of
Congress said there was widespread support for such changes on
Capitol Hill, where lawmakers appear eager to move quickly.

Clinton gave few details of his proposal, leaving law-enforcement
officials to work out specific recommendations.

Differences between the FBI and the firearms bureau have
surfaced in the last two days as officials from various federal
law-enforcement agencies have tried to develop an official position
on legislative proposals.

The rift mirrors disagreements that have often split the FBI and the
firearms bureau in the last decade.

Stephen E. Higgins, who worked at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
and Firearms for 32 years and was director from 1982 to October
1993, said: "From an institutional standpoint, the bureau felt that
not much needed to be changed in the existing rules. Those rules
provide protections that innocent people needed and did not hamper
law enforcement that much."

Higgins said the firearms bureau "was not a strong proponent of
making wholesale changes in the rules for gathering intelligence or
conducting criminal investigations."

Whenever the Bush administration tried to draft a comprehensive
crime bill, he said, "there was always some difference of opinion
between the Justice Department and the Treasury Department on
how much change was necessary." The Justice Department, with
much broader law-enforcement and intelligence-gathering
responsibilities, "always wanted to go somewhat further" than the
firearms bureau, he said.

Higgins was director of the firearms bureau in February 1993 when
four of its agents were killed trying to carry out search and arrest
warrants at the compound of a religious sect, the Branch Davidians,
near Waco, Texas. The compound burned to the ground and more
than 70 of its residents died when FBI agents stormed the site after
a 51-day standoff. Higgins retired early, in part because he
disagreed with Treasury officials who said he had not adequately
supervised the February raid.

A law-enforcement official at the Treasury Department who works
closely with the firearms agency said Tuesday, "We need more
manpower and resources, but we are not seeking more authority."

That official, who spoke on the condition that he not be named, said
there was "a tremendous potential for abuse" in some of the recent
FBI proposals to relax the standards for investigating suspected
terrorists.

FBI officials have long expressed frustration with the current
guidelines, particularly the requirement that there be some
indication of criminal activity before the government can open an
investigation. Oliver B. Revell, a former top official of the FBI, said
this week: "That means you have to wait until you have blood on the
street before the bureau can act. You can't prevent what you don't
know about, and you can't know about a group if you can't
investigate until after they have committed an act of terrorism."

Carl Stern, the Justice Department spokesman, said Tuesday that
there was vigorous discussion among administration officials
preparing the president's counterterrorism package. But he said he
was unaware of any serious divisions between the Treasury and the
Justice Department. "If they weren't arguing, they wouldn't be
doing their job," he said.

James X. Dempsey, deputy director of the Center for National
Security Studies, a civil liberties organization, said Tuesday: "The
FBI is both an intelligence agency and a law-enforcement agency.
Sometimes the monitoring mentality of the intelligence side infects
the law-enforcement side of the house." By contrast, he said, the
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms has "a more clearly
defined goal, to go out and arrest people violating firearms or
explosives laws."

Likewise, James O. Pasco, who worked at the Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco and Firearms from 1970 to January of this year, said: "The
ATF differs philosophically with the FBI. The agencies have
dramatically different personalities, approaches and missions." At
the same time, he said, they respect each other and often work
together.

Federal guidelines for investigating threats to domestic security
were adopted in 1976 by Edward H. Levi, who was then attorney
general. The rules were revised and reissued in 1983 by another
attorney general, William French Smith.

The rules say, "A domestic security/terrorism investigation may be
initiated when the facts or circumstances reasonably indicate that
two or more persons are engaged in an enterprise for the purpose of
furthering political or social goals wholly or in part through
activities that involve force or violence and a violation of the
criminal laws of the United States."

FBI officials and former officials said the guidelines had been a
source of constant frustration.

But Higgins said that he and his colleagues at the firearms bureau
had been able to live within the constraints of the attorney
general's guidelines. Violations of federal gun laws often precede
terrorist activity, they noted.

"In the Branch Davidian case," Higgins said, "we gathered a lot of
information about illegal activities, though we did not have a tap on
the phones or surveillance devices inside the compound when our
agents tried to serve warrants" on Feb. 28, 1993.



There's so much to learn, a whole new vernacular.
Like, what's this six pack of green-death?   Sounds
cool, but what does it mean?  

When interviewing with the militia, should one be 
very serious and intense?  And carry oneself in a 
military fashion?   

    
    
    Maybe the thing to do is learn more about what a true "militia" is and
    what it does, rather than approach it from ignorance... although I
    suspect there's more chain yanking to your replies than anything
    else...
    

    
    
>There's so much to learn, a whole new vernacular.
>Like, what's this six pack of green-death?   Sounds
>cool, but what does it mean?  
    
    	Heffenreffer beer.....12% alcohol. a 6 pack of those and you'll see
    st. peter.
    
>When interviewing with the militia, should one be 
>very serious and intense?  And carry oneself in a 
>military fashion?   
    
    	Tell them you once worked for the BATF...that'll win you some
    friends right off the bat.
    
    

How do I find out what a true militia is?
Are there books on the subject?  I must 
confess, I don't know anyone who is a member.
(At least I don't _think_ I do.)

And I still don't know what a six pack of
green-death is. :-(

    
    >And I still don't know what a six pack of green-death is. :-(
    
    Mountain Dew???
    

Heffereefer...thanks!

    
    
    	I think I have some web-sites of militia's on the net (I'm not a
    member). I'll try and post them...
    
    

McVeigh, Nichols brothers said to use farm for
bomb-making school 


(c) Copyright the News & Observer Publishing Co.

New York Times 

DECKER, Mich. -- The FBI, charging James and Terry Nichols of
conspiring to make bombs, said Tuesday that the brothers and
Oklahoma bombing suspect Timothy McVeigh used the Nichols'
farm here as a test site to learn about explosives.

Although the new charges do not accuse the Nichols brothers of a
role in last Wednesday's bombing of the federal building in
Oklahoma City, FBI affidavits supporting the new accusations
place the Nichols closer to the bomb-making expertise that
McVeigh is accused of in connection with the Oklahoma City
disaster.

According to the new charges, James Nichols told FBI
investigators he had seen his brother and McVeigh make and
explode "bottle bombs" in 1992 at the family's 160-acre farm here
in the flat fertile grain-growing region known as Michigan's
"Thumb."

They used "brake fluid, gasoline and diesel fuel," according to an
FBI affidavit filed with the federal complaint.

James Nichols also said he participated with the two men in making
bottle bombs and, in 1994, that he had made "small explosive
devices using prescription vials, pyrodex, blasting caps and safety
fuse."

Daniel Stomber, who lives near the Nichols farm, told investigators
that he saw the brothers several times "mix fertilizer, peroxide and
bleach in plastic pop bottles and detonate them around the Nichols
farm," the document says.

Stomber recalled James Nichols saying, "We're getting better at
it," referring to the bombmaking.

Paul Isydorek, another neighbor, told investigators that James
Nichols often experimented with common household materials "to
determine what type of explosive value they had," and that Terry
Nichols and McVeigh also took part in the experiments.

The affidavit says investigators found 28 50-pound bags of
fertilizer containing ammonium nitrate and a 55-gallon drum
containing fuel oil at the farm. Similar substances were used to
make the Oklahoma City bomb, but such materials are also not
unusual on Midwestern farms.

The Nichols brothers were not charged with bombing the Oklahoma
City federal building last Wednesday, a crime that only McVeigh
has been accused of.

Before the new charges against them, James Nichols, 41, was
being held in Michigan as a material witness to the Oklahoma City
bombing and his brother Terry, 40, was being held in Kansas on a
similar charge.

When they weren't allegedly experimenting with explosives, the
Nichols brothers vented their hatred of the federal government in
dramatic gestures.

In 1992, for example, James renounced his U.S. citizenship. A year
later, he challenged a traffic ticket on the basis that the
Constitution guaranteed him the right to travel without a driver's
license.

Terry Nichols returned his voter registration card in August 1992,
writing to an Evergreen Township, Mich., clerk: "My status is that
of a non-resident alien, non-foreigner, stranger to the current state
of the forum."

Such renunciations have no legal effect.

While James is a familiar figure to people in this small community in
Michigan's Thumb, where grazing cows and horses share the
landscape with scattered satellite TV dishes, neighbors say Terry
is quieter and harder to get to know.

Philip Morawski, a rural Methodist chaplain whose farm is 2 1/2
miles down the road from the Nichols' farm said: "James is more or
less ... all out in front of you."

By contrast, Terry is "a very complicated person in that you
couldn't get too close to him," Morawski said.

Both men were high school athletes in Lapeer, another Thumb
community. The first marriages of both brothers ended in divorce.
Both were known by their neighbors to hold strong anti-government
views. And now, both are at the center of a national investigation.

McVeigh, 27, listed the Nichols' farm -- where a nearby road sign
warns of horse and buggy traffic -- as his home on his Michigan
driver's license. He also listed James Nichols as his next of kin
when he was arrested.

Federal authorities spent four days at the property, combing through
the two-story farmhouse, barn and silo, as well as some sheds and
fields. Agents carried boxes and packages away from the scene.

According to the affidavit, agents also discovered large quantities
of 35 percent solution of hydrogen peroxide, a 1/2 pint of aluminum
powder, and fuel tanks that appeared to contain diesel fuel.

"All of these materials can be used as ingredients in improvised
explosives," the document says.

In addition, agents found non-electric blasting caps, pyrodex -- or
black powder -- and safety fuse inside the farmhouse, and
"jagged-edged metal fragments, which appear to be shrapnel from
the detonation of explosive devices" in a field, according to the
affidavit.

While James Nichols remains in federal custody, Morawski said he
is trying to round up a group of neighbors to work on his farm.

7/8 7/8"He should be planting oats now," he said. The Nichols'
parents divorced in the 1970s and the two brothers moved here in
1975, when their mother, Joyce, bought the farm.

Nichols has been described as an organic farmer, but Morawski
called him a "transitional farmer, moving from a chemical farm to an
organic farm."

Stomber, the neighbor quoted in the FBI affidavit, previously told
the Huron Daily Tribune, the main newspaper in the Upper Thumb
area, that James did some weird things.

"The guy takes baths in peroxide. The guy has an ozone machine in
his house," Stomber said. "You walk into that house and you think,
'God, that house reeks."'

Stomber, who had a falling out with the Nichols brothers recently,
said he had heard James say that "(President) Clinton needs to be
dead."

Morawski denied that James had said that.

"It's not true that he wanted to kill the president," Morawski said.
But, he said, Nichols did tell friends that anyone who "surrenders
the sovereignty of the United States" to the United Nations,
including the president, should be killed.



   RE: 393.567

 >FBI officials have long expressed frustration with the current
 >guidelines, particularly the requirement that there be some
 >indication of criminal activity before the government can open an
 >investigation.

    So, this is the mindset we are dealing with?...Incredible!

                                                Bob H.

>Nichols has been described as an organic farmer, but Morawski
>called him a "transitional farmer, moving from a chemical farm to an
>organic farm."

Aha!  He was just looking for a way to use up that leftover fertilizer!
I guess his supplier had a no-return policy.  Either that or he lost
his receipt.

Re: 575

>"The guy takes baths in peroxide.

This isn't required is it?  Can you substitute with green-death?

    >>  Right.  The FBI tells us that maybe they can't find John Dough cause
    >>  he blew himself up.
         
    
    John Dough?  Any relation to Pillsbury Dough?

    
    What does John Dough use to blow himself up? Yeast?
    

      <<< Note 393.473 by SX4GTO::OLSON "Doug Olson, ISVETS Palo Alto" >>>

I hate to interrupt this love-in for DougO, but... 
 
>   .399 was a dodge.  Suzanne, Paul asked you your opinion of Waco, twice,  
>    not because he "doesn't see a difference" between Waco and the OKC  
>    bombings (what a rude thing to suggest of one of your peers) but 
>    because he wants to know if you recognize what many people see as a 
>    legitimate concern with police-state tactics used against American 
>    citizens.  Acknowledging FBI and BATF errors in that assault in Waco  
>    does not require one to attempt to justify the OKC bombing.  There is 
>    nothing sinister in the question- just answer it. 
 
Suzanne wasn't a dodging anything. And there *is* something sinister in the
question. He refered to "state terrorism" versus "civilian terrorism" which
sounds like apples-to-apples to me. It shows a disturbing lack of
proportion and a bizarre preoccupation with government conspiracy. In the
box it's relatively harmless, but when it's embraced by a sociopathic mind,
it's lethal. What Paul and others are saying (or at least implying) is
"While I deplore the act, I agree with the rationale." I (and I guess
Suzanne) have a problem with that - as do most Americans, I reckon. 
 
>    One of the most interesting aspects of the bombing that I see now is 
>    that the media has been forced to bring up Waco and the Weaver cases. 
>    They had been buried, reported on back pages at best, in recent months. 
>    Weaver in particular hasn't been on the front page in over a year, even 
>    though the report indicating possible criminal indictments was only 
>    handed down late last year.  It was tucked into an internal news 
>    summaries column in my paper- effectively buried. 
>     
>    I think that the attempted burial of those stories is one of the 
>    reasons people are so polarized in the aftermath of this bombing. 
>    Had the newsmedia been doing their job of reporting and keeping the 
>    heat on for this abuse of power, and the resultant pressure forced the 
>    administration to curb the BATF gestapo as so many responsible people 
>    urged them to do, a couple of fruitcakes wouldn't have blown up their 
>    bomb.  There are an amazingly large number of people who think that 
>    officials of the US government are responsible for criminal acts in 
>    those cases; and just like Watergate, trying to bury the story is just 
>    not going to work.  I don't say this to "justify" any bombings, as some 
>    of the wilder accusations in this forum might suggest.  I say this to 
>    hopefully avoid more such incidents. 
 
Et tu DougO? Media/government conspiracy? I expect better from you. 

Has it ever occurred to you that most folks don't view the occasional
skirmish between a government agency and those who appear to be fringe
wackos as being central to their daily lives. Only the chronically paranoid
and 2nd amendment obsessive see Waco and Weaver as cosmic symbols of a
secret war, right up there in historic importance with "the shot heard
'round the world." There is no grand conspiracy to strip us of our rights.
While evidence exists of criminal acts by individuals within ATF, there is
no evidence of an agency gone wild. "Gestapo tactics" is the kind of
transparent hyperbole that discredits what might well be some legitimate
complaints. Proportion. 
 
What gun advocates who toe the no-regulation line don't seem to grasp is
that most Americans - most people - hate guns. *Hate* them. From their
sweet oiled-metal smell, to the shockingly loud explosion when they fire,
to the violent kick they give to your hand or shoulder, to the death or
injury they can deliver before the shot is even heard, people who aren't
used to using a firearm (and that's most folk) are scared sh*tless of them.
Still, only the few nuts on the other extreme of the spectrum would want to
deprive their fellow citizens of their right to own guns for sport and self
protection. Where you loose sympathy is when you include exotic weapons of
war under the 2nd amendment banner. To most, the difference between a deer
rifle and an "assault" rifle is like the difference between sex in marriage
and an orgy. Pointing to a raid on Plato's Retreat as a threat to your
right to marital bliss is going to seem mighty paranoid. 
 
Waco and Weaver aren't Watergate. What happened in those instances is far
worse on a human scale and far less on a political scale. If Watergate
involved operatives for Senator Helms against his latest opponent, it never
would've made more than a one-shot sidebar in the national press. 
 
Of course the Feds are going to try to sweep the whole issue under the
carpet. It's an embarrassment. I'm not justifying it, I'm just pointing out
the obvious impulse of self-protection. It's far from evidence of
systematic abuse of power, let alone a collusion in that abuse by the
media. 

    ...and you'll still be prattling this line of bull off as you are
    asking Big Brother for permission to go pee.
    
    Now, sarcasm aside for a moment, let's assume that there is no
    *conscious* plot to do away with the BoR by the government.  This still
    does not mean that the BoR is NOT being slowly dismantled for whatever
    reason.  The end result is the same.
    
    It is up to us to make sure that the government stays within its
    constitutional powers, else it is our freedoms that will be lost-
    whether said loss is intentional or accidental.
    
    To fight the ever-intrusiveness of the federal government is not being
    anti-government, it is being pro-individual rights.  A Big Brotherish
    government cannot coexist with personal freedoms.  
    
    I don't care how its spun, the BoR is under attack.  I don't care
    whether it is intentionally under attack via some government or NWO
    conspiratorial plot, or whether it is an evolution of a too-bloated
    federal government, or whether it is by accident.  The end result of
    ignoring/suspending/tampering with the Constitution is the same in any
    case.
    
    
    -steve

                      <<< Note 393.582 by SHRCTR::DAVIS >>>

> Has it ever occurred to you that most folks don't view the occasional
> skirmish between a government agency and those who appear to be fringe
> wackos as being central to their daily lives. Only the chronically paranoid
> and 2nd amendment obsessive see Waco and Weaver as cosmic symbols of a
> secret war, right up there in historic importance with "the shot heard
> 'round the world." There is no grand conspiracy to strip us of our rights.
> While evidence exists of criminal acts by individuals within ATF, there is
> no evidence of an agency gone wild. "Gestapo tactics" is the kind of
> transparent hyperbole that discredits what might well be some legitimate
> complaints. Proportion. 

I believe that those in the majority should pay more attention to the
"occasional skirmish".  When our government begins to display a reckless 
disregard for its citizens, these incidents have a way of showing up at
our door.  For example, the DEA has a history of breaking down doors hard
and fast.  For several years now we've seen terrible "mistakes" that have 
ended in innocent people being killed.

James Bovard wrote this for the Wall Street Journal (January 10, 1995):

   The Weaver case is by far the most important 
   civil-rights/civil-liberties case the Clinton administration has 
   yet resolved -- and it resolved it in favor of granting unlimited
   deadly power to federal agents.  If the new Republican congressional 
   leaders let the Justice Department and the FBI get away with what may
   have been murder, they will be accomplices to a gross travesty of justice.

You and I have very little control over the way that Federal agencies 
carry out their duties and use deadly force.  Your local and state police
departments have separate departments to look into every complaint and
every incident where an officer had to use their firearm.  Many of these
groups have ordinary citizens on the panel or as observers.  The Federal
Governement has ad-hoc investigations by the Justice Department, and in
the Weaver case, it was a whitewash.
 

> What gun advocates who toe the no-regulation line don't seem to grasp is
> that most Americans - most people - hate guns. *Hate* them. 

Really?  Where does this number come from?

The last survey I saw was by the Justice Department.  I believe it was 1991.
The results were that 47% of the households in the country had a firearm.
I find it a little that this has changed much.  If recent increases in gun
sales are any indication, the number may be up slightly.

    
    
    The building I work at (customer site)is the same building that 
    houses Packard Bell Hdgtrs. The president of the company received
    a package with no return address/ unmarked. Sitting in hallway.
    
    So the entire complex was evacuated.
    
    Entire complex surrounded by police. People running out the 
    entrances. Bomb squad on it's way. Three to four hours estimated
    time to resolve.
    
    so here I am at home.
    
    
    Wonder if this will become a regular thing for many.
    
    Dave

                      <<< Note 393.583 by CSOA1::LEECH >>>
                                 -< re: .582 >-

    Steve,

    I, too, think that the Bill of Rights is under attack.

    First Amendment:
	- HUD threatens people who organize petition drives against HUD
	  projects under the Fair Housing Act.
	- Proposed EEOC guidelines concerning religious material at the 
	  workplace.
	- Janet Reno's testimony before Congress where she explains that
	  the Justice Department is considering "regulation" of TV if the
	  violence isn't toned down.
	- Civil disobedience is allowed, except at abortion clinics

    Second Amendment:
	- Assault weapons ban
	- Proposals for universal licensing

    Fourth Amendment:
	- Warrantless searches

    Tenth Amendment:
	- Brady Bill (state and local governement required to act to 
	  support a Federal program)

    What about the right to privacy?  We have the Clipper Chip proposal.
    When Clinton was running for office, he suggested "smart cards" for
    all citizens.  We've seen Justice Department proposals to make it
    easier for Federal agencies to monitor telephone communications and
    a proposal for the FBI to monitor credit card and banking transactions.

re: .585, Dave

Hmmm. That could very well be the laptop that a friend of mine recently
got fed up with . . . 

:^)

    > Suzanne wasn't a dodging anything.
    
    She never did answer the direct question, it looks dodged to me.
    
    > And there *is* something sinister in the question.
    
    Asking people what their opinion is on the matter of whether the fedgov
    was acting properly when it burnt the Waco compound to the ground is
    sinister?  Are we no longer allowed to have thoughts on the possible
    impropriety of fedgov action, or to discuss the possibility?  That was
    the question, and I refuse to see it as sinister.  
    
    > What Paul and others are saying (or at least implying) is "While I
    > deplore the act, I agree with the rationale." 
    
    Nonsense.  What they are saying is that buried fedgov sh*t still
    stinks.  It doesn't justify murder.  But the hypothesis I articulated
    and that many people here seem to have endorsed is that it apparently
    leads (some sociopaths) to commit unjustified murder all the same. 
    Deal with it, Dorothy.  Quit arguing against us as though we're saying
    that either set of murders were 'justified' - we aren't.  We're saying
    neither were.  Hold BOTH sets of murderers accountable.  Or the fringe
    elements will return what you call 'civilian terror' for what they see
    as 'state terror'.  Us informed spectators would prefer that *all* the
    villains get punished and the killings stop NOW.
    
    Those of you who'd prefer not to face the fact that the nature of
    government is to attempt to accumulate more power, who'd prefer to
    think that two hundred years of history of freedom guarantees it in
    perpetuity, who prefer to ignore the evidence of fedgov arrogance in
    the killings at Waco, would also prefer to think that the appropriate
    response to incidents of domestic terror such as this bombing is to
    cede yet more power to federal government police agencies.  You risk
    making it worse.  Unfortunately, as any engineer will tell you, if you
    haven't understood the problem, your solution won't address it.  And I
    think that you simply haven't understood the problem.
    
    I don't think it takes a conspiracy, Tom- only disbelief.  You'd prefer
    not to believe it, so would the media.  Unfortunately, I can't
    disbeleive it any more.  Maybe its living in California- DEA
    helicopters buzz rural towns around here.  INS agents raid sweatshops.
    LA cops beat speeding motorists who happen to be the wrong color.  LA
    County Sherriff's Deputies conduct phony drug raids to confiscate
    choice ranches, killing their owners.   And BATF and FBI agents are
    evidently licensed to kill with impunity.  And that's just the ones
    that we hear about.  You go ahead and disbelieve.  After all, the media
    isn't telling you any different.
    
    DougO

    
    well, it's good to see slick back to normal, after keeping a low
    profile for months in order to get his approval up in the polls.
    he told us last year that teevee was the cause of violence
    in america; now he says talk radio is the culprit.  also, he's
    calling for broad federal powers to infiltrate groups like the
    michigan militia, even though it is clear that the bombing suspects
    were not allowed to become members, and reporters had no trouble
    whatsoever finding out everything they wanted to know about them
    just by asking around.  
    
    time to get moving on the whitewater hearings.
    
    bill

Some interesting factoids for all those who think that a citizenry
    without guns will wipe out crime.
    
    -Elizabeth
    
    
 
Heritage News Forum
From Heritage Features Syndicate
Washington, D.C.

GUN CONTROL IS NOT CRIME CONTROL
By Edwin Feulner
         
     Which is a policeman more likely to encounter as he
patrols the streets of your neighborhood: a vicious criminal
with an assault rifle or an escaped tiger from the local
zoo?  The answer may prompt you to buy some safari gear. 
     You will find it in "Guns, Crime and Freedom," an
important new book by Wayne LaPierre, head of the National
Rifle Association.  His book is full of facts gun-control
advocates don't want you to know. 
     For example, he tells of the New Jersey deputy police
chief who explained to the Senate Judiciary Committee in
1993 that "assault weapons are/were used in an underwhelming
.026 of one percent of crimes in New Jersey.  This means
that my officers are more likely to confront an escaped
tiger from the local zoo than to confront an assault rifle
in the hands of a drug-crazed killer on the streets."
     So why do the gun-control advocates keep telling us
that banning assault weapons will stop the crime wave that
has millions of Americans afraid to leave their homes at
night? For the same reason they want to keep law-abiding
citizens from obtaining other types of firearms.
     LaPierre shows that stopping crime is not what the
gun-control crowd in Washington is really after.  He says
the Brady bill--which required a nationwide seven-day
waiting period for firearms purchases--was just the first
step toward completely taking away your right to defend
yourself and your family--even though the Constitution
guarantees you that right.
     "Immediately after passage of the Brady bill,
gun-control proponents moved to continue their assault on
the rights of law-abiding gun owners.  Brady Bill II
contains four more steps in the march to disarm the American
people: firearms registration, licensing, gun bans and taxes
on firearms and ammunition," LaPierre notes.
     None of these newest gun-control proposals will reduce
crime.  But they will embolden criminals to commit more
assaults against innocent victims.  Instead of taking guns
away from law-abiding citizens with measures like the Brady
bill, the government ought to be protecting our right to
protect ourselves.
     The deterrent effect of gun ownership is beyond
dispute.  LaPierre cites research by nationally recognized
criminologist Gary Kleck showing as many as 2.5 million crimes
are prevented each year by armed citizens who usually don't
have to fire a shot.  Criminals fear being shot and they
avoid situations they believe might expose them to such
dangers.
     But the gun-control fanatics aren't nearly as concerned
about gun-toting rapists, robbers and murderers as they are
about people like Randy Weaver and David Koresh.  Weaver's
wife and young son were shot and killed in a 1992 assault at
Ruby Ridge, Idaho, by Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and
Firearms (BATF) agents.  Weaver's crime: allegedly selling
two shotguns whose barrels were a quarter of an inch shorter
than allowed by federal law.
     A few months later, Koresh died with 84 Branch Davidian
followers in Waco, Texas, in one of the most disgusting
government-led debacles ever televised worldwide by the
Cable News Network.  In both cases, BATF said it was
searching for illegal weapons.
     Weaver was a white separatist, while Koresh was a cult
leader.  But even if you don't agree with their views, as I
certainly don't, you have to wonder who will be next and
why.  Wouldn't BATF be better utilized fighting drug dealers
and gangs that terrorize schools and neighborhoods?
     Meanwhile, America's crime wave surges: A murder is
committed every 21 minutes, a woman is raped every five
minutes, a citizen is robbed every 46 seconds and a home is
burglarized every five seconds.  And gun-control advocates
want to disarm the victims!

------------------------------------------------------------
     Note: Edwin Feulner is president of The Heritage
Foundation, a Washington-based public policy research
institute.

March 16, 1995
                
                Downloaded from GUN-TALK (703-934-2121)
                A service of the 
                National Rifle Association 
                Institute for Legislative Action
                Fairfax, VA 22030
 

    
    tom brokaw last night interviewed wayne lapierre of the NRA and implied
    that the NRA supports militias because they oppose the BATF. wayne
    answered it well and avoided that trap.
    
    now, the person who claims to be the una-bomber has told the new york    
    times that he is against people who are in technology or who threaten
    the environment. anyone want to place bets on the media investigating
    to see if there is a "conspiracy" involving the sierra club??
    
    don't hold your breath.
    
      

    .505 then why didn't you say what you meant. gee, what a stretch for
    to define your statement "response" with punishment without you
    defining "response"... please forgive the leap, right... 
    
    there are tons of lemmings in here. countless randomly wandering
    pseudo-politicos sifting through every little thing to twist and
    mangle it into a BC or gov't bashing session. Are you so blind that
    you don't see this? 
    
    I won't even discuss the gov't conspiracy implication in this topic.
    it's just really too abstract. join the Michigan Militia...
    
    Chip 

    >I hate to interrupt this love-in for DougO, but...
    
     I'm getting a strong reading from my insincerity meter, captain.
    
    >Et tu DougO? Media/government conspiracy? I expect better from you.
    
     Yeah, they're all looking out for "we the peoples'" best interest.
    Ho ho! 
    
    >Only the chronically paranoid and 2nd amendment obsessive see Waco 
    >and Weaver as cosmic symbols of a secret war
    
     Only the morally obtuse, blissfully ignorant and government toadies
    fail to see the Waco and Ruby Ridge episodes as evidence of a problem.
    
    >There is no grand conspiracy to strip us of our rights.
    
     How immensely naive. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out
    that the government is working to make life easier on itself by
    systematically eliminating the freedoms that prevent them from
    enforcing all manner of prescribed behaviors.
    
    >While evidence exists of criminal acts by individuals within ATF, there
    >is no evidence of an agency gone wild.
    
     Cute. And you downplay the evidence that exists "it's just a few rogue
    officers" and remain silent when internal investigations absolve all of
    criminal responsibility, presumably justifying the government's
    criminal actions by the mitigation of "well they were bad people
    anyway."
    
    >What gun advocates who toe the no-regulation line don't seem to grasp
    >is that most Americans - most people - hate guns.
    
     I sense just a teensy bit of projection here. Since when were you
    appointed the spokesman for "most people"? Since more than 50% of
    households have at least one gun in them, one must wonder how you
    arrived at your conclusion.
    
    >most folk) are scared sh*tless of them.
    
     More projection. This explains your attitude, perfectly.
    
    >Where you loose sympathy is when you include exotic weapons of
    >war under the 2nd amendment banner. 
    
     That's "lose." Besides, the 2nd amendment is about weapons of war;
    read the Miller opinion (I think that's the one) where a law outlawing
    the possession of a sawed off shotgun was allowed to stand because
    nobody provided any evidence that such a weapon is used for military
    purposes. (I'm sure someone with ready access to the opinion will
    provide the full citation.)
    
    >To most, the difference between a deer
    >rifle and an "assault" rifle is like the difference between sex in
    >marriage and an orgy.
    
     In fact, it's the difference between a martial arts expert in a three
    piece suit and one in ninja black. The difference is primarily
    cosmetic. My deer rifle is a semiauto. My shotgun is a semi auto. Both
    are perfectly legitimate and perfectly legal. And extremely powerful.
    more powerful than a plurality of the "assault weapons" banned by the
    congress of cowards.
    
    >Of course the Feds are going to try to sweep the whole issue under the
    >carpet. It's an embarrassment. I'm not justifying it,
    
     Just aiding and abetting. Your downplay of these events assists the
    Feds in "sweeping the whole issue under the carpet."
    
    

      <<< Note 393.588 by SX4GTO::OLSON "Doug Olson, ISVETS Palo Alto" >>>

>    Asking people what their opinion is on the matter of whether the fedgov
>    was acting properly when it burnt the Waco compound to the ground is
>    sinister?  Are we no longer allowed to have thoughts on the possible
>    impropriety of fedgov action, or to discuss the possibility?  That was
>    the question, and I refuse to see it as sinister.  

No one's suggesting that your are "no longer allowed to have thoughts" and 
it's absurd and dishonest to make that leap. I'm pointing out a parallel 
thought process.
    
>    Deal with it, Dorothy.  Quit arguing against us as though we're saying
>    that either set of murders were 'justified' - we aren't.  We're saying
>    neither were.  Hold BOTH sets of murderers accountable.  Or the fringe

Another grand rhetorical leap. No one that I know of in the 'box is 
sociopathic. Of course you abhore the deaths of innocent people. That 
doesn't mean that many here don't have a surreal view of the political 
landscape. And it's one they share with the McVeigh's of the world.

>    elements will return what you call 'civilian terror' for what they see
>    as 'state terror'.  Us informed spectators would prefer that *all* the
>    villains get punished and the killings stop NOW.

Those weren't my terms, they were Paul's.
    
>    Those of you who'd prefer not to face the fact that the nature of
>    government is to attempt to accumulate more power, who'd prefer to
>    think that two hundred years of history of freedom guarantees it in
>    perpetuity, who prefer to ignore the evidence of fedgov arrogance in
>    the killings at Waco, would also prefer to think that the appropriate
>    response to incidents of domestic terror such as this bombing is to
>    cede yet more power to federal government police agencies.  You risk
>    making it worse.  Unfortunately, as any engineer will tell you, if you
>    haven't understood the problem, your solution won't address it.  And I
>    think that you simply haven't understood the problem.

I disagree. It's not the nature of government to accumulate power, it's the 
nature of man- it just so happens government is one of the more popular 
vehicles. That's not as trivial a distinction as it may seem. In fact,  
because the urge to power resides in the individual, that makes 
any kind of widespread conspiracy - particularly in a complex web of 
bureaucracies operating under democratic controls, like we have - 
impossible. What we really have to fear is individuals with pathological 
hunger for power actually attaining positions of power. J Edger Hoover 
comes to mind, as does Nixon. Some in here think Clinton fills the bill (so 
to speak :-)); I don't. In any case, there is evidence of individuals 
overreaching their powers, and evidence of incompetancy and misjudgement, 
but I have yet to see *persuasive* evidence of any overarching systemic 
problems that warrant level of alarm and passion I see hear. 

I must confess I don't like what I'm seeing from Clinton and the congress. 
I don't like expanding FBI's and other agencies' investigative powers. It 
opens more doors to abuse. They already have more than enough power to deal 
with terrorism about as effectively as they can ever hope to short of a 
police state - and even that won't stop a determined terrorist. But their 
reasons for proposing such things, IMHO, have nothing to do with 
accumulating power and everything to do with politics. They *have* to look 
like they're responding to this threat somehow. And these are the tangible 
ways that can demostrate "taking control of the situation" to their 
constituencies.
 
>    I don't think it takes a conspiracy, Tom- only disbelief.  You'd prefer
>    not to believe it, so would the media.  Unfortunately, I can't
>    disbeleive it any more.  Maybe its living in California- DEA

I'm not suggesting that we suspend doubt. If we want to protect our 
freedoms and ourselves from the abuses of power by individuals within our 
system, we need to keep a watchful and sceptical eye, and use the power of 
our voice and our vote to root out the bad. It's a system that has worked 
for over 200 years, and I don't see it working any less effectively now.
YMMV.

>    helicopters buzz rural towns around here.  INS agents raid sweatshops.
>    LA cops beat speeding motorists who happen to be the wrong color.  LA
>    County Sherriff's Deputies conduct phony drug raids to confiscate
>    choice ranches, killing their owners.   And BATF and FBI agents are
>    evidently licensed to kill with impunity.  And that's just the ones
>    that we hear about.  You go ahead and disbelieve.  After all, the media
>    isn't telling you any different.

Where did you learn of these events, Doug? If not from the *Media*, than 
from what? And what, pray tell, makes that other source more credible? 

Tom

          <<< Note 393.594 by WAHOO::LEVESQUE "luxure et supplice" >>>

>     Yeah, they're all looking out for "we the peoples'" best interest.
>    Ho ho! 

In their own own market/vote-driven way, they are.

>     Only the morally obtuse, blissfully ignorant and government toadies
>    fail to see the Waco and Ruby Ridge episodes as evidence of a problem.

Only a paranoid or someone with a hair across their political arse 
stretches easily from "evidence of a problem" to proof of a crisis.

>     How immensely naive. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out
>    that the government is working to make life easier on itself by
>    systematically eliminating the freedoms that prevent them from
>    enforcing all manner of prescribed behaviors.

Nope. It takes an arrogant absolutist with right-wing myopia.
        
>    >To most, the difference between a deer
>    >rifle and an "assault" rifle is like the difference between sex in
>    >marriage and an orgy.
    
>     In fact, it's the difference between a martial arts expert in a three
>    piece suit and one in ninja black. The difference is primarily
>    cosmetic. My deer rifle is a semiauto. My shotgun is a semi auto. Both
>    are perfectly legitimate and perfectly legal. And extremely powerful.
>    more powerful than a plurality of the "assault weapons" banned by the
>    congress of cowards.

The difference to the observer between sex between strangers and sex 
between spouses is simply "cosmetic", too. It's a question of purpose. 
While in the 'box I've learned that weapons bans probably won't have any 
effect on curtailing weapons-related crimes. So I'm against most 
regulation. But what I'm telling you is that all the statistical evidence 
to refute the efficacy of assault bans are meaningless to most people. They 
want to say "we as a society are disgusted by these weapons" and they 
demonstrate it through legislation. As DougO would say, Get used to it, 
Dorthy.

>    >Of course the Feds are going to try to sweep the whole issue under the
>    >carpet. It's an embarrassment. I'm not justifying it,
    
>     Just aiding and abetting. Your downplay of these events assists the
>    Feds in "sweeping the whole issue under the carpet."

And responding to the bombings in OKC with "Hey, what about the 'state 
terrorism' in Waco" isn't aiding and abetting?

Tom    
    

    >In their own own market/vote-driven way, they are.
    
     So when they implemented Jim Crow laws, they were looking out for our
    best interest? When they prevented women from voting, that was in our
    best interest?
    
    >Nope. It takes an arrogant absolutist with right-wing myopia.
    
     You're the one with the ostrich problem, so I suppose that "myopia" is
    less problematic than purposely sheilding ones eyes. No matter how many
    times you close your eyes and block your ears and yell "it's not true!
    it's not true!" at the top of your lungs, the facts will not be
    changed. Reality doesn't go away because it is ignored.
    
    >They want to say "we as a society are disgusted by these weapons" and they
    >demonstrate it through legislation.
    
     Well, the "hearings" on what the people really want have been quite
    skewed for a very long time now. Perhaps a more accurate reading will
    be taken by the current congress. And let me remind you, the mob
    mentailty is not always right; the tyranny of the majority remains an
    issue which must be checked in order to preserve individual rights.
    
    >And responding to the bombings in OKC with "Hey, what about the 'state
    >terrorism' in Waco" isn't aiding and abetting?
    
     Given the fact that one of the major motivations of the bomber was the
    whitewashing of those two events, one might indeed consider the cost of
    said whitewash. I completely disagree with the tactic used to gain
    attention and feel that execution is the appropriate punishment, but
    this misdeed doesn't excuse or mitigate the crimes committed by the
    government. So to reexamine the whitewashed government crimes can
    hardly be rationally considered to be "aiding and abetting" the bomber;
    after all, we've been singing the same tune since they happened. What,
    are we supposed to shut up now that some nutcase took his beliefs to
    such an extreme?
    
     Again, we are interested in seeing ALL the perpetrators of crimes
    punished, not just the ones who don't have a government shield for
    their criminal actions.

> because the urge to power resides in the individual, that makes 
> any kind of widespread conspiracy - particularly in a complex web of 
> bureaucracies operating under democratic controls, like we have - 
> impossible. What we really have to fear is individuals with pathological 
> hunger for power actually attaining positions of power.

I disagree.  Man is a social animal, capable of working with others to 
achieve goals that a single person cannot achieve.  If this were not so,
then government cannot achieve anything through getting groups of people
to work together for the common good.  Therefore, unscrupulous individuals
can conspire together to achieve greater power than they can otherwise 
achieve separately.  An example is organized crime.


> I must confess I don't like what I'm seeing from Clinton and the congress. 
> I don't like expanding FBI's and other agencies' investigative powers. It 
> opens more doors to abuse. They already have more than enough power to deal 
> with terrorism about as effectively as they can ever hope to short of a 
> police state - and even that won't stop a determined terrorist. 

I agree 100%.


> But their 
> reasons for proposing such things, IMHO, have nothing to do with 
> accumulating power and everything to do with politics. They *have* to look 
> like they're responding to this threat somehow. And these are the tangible 
> ways that can demostrate "taking control of the situation" to their 
> constituencies.

Yes, the cry of "Well, we have do to SOMETHING" is a familiar one.
However, I think that the Clinton Administration in particular will be very
pleased to gain more power and control through legislation that they failed
to get before (e.g. Justice Dept. monitoring of telephone calls and banking
transactions).  But, of course, they wouldn't use this event as an excuse
to push a hidden agenda, would they?  That would be dishonest for a 
politician to do that!

>                      <<< Note 393.582 by SHRCTR::DAVIS >>>
 
>What gun advocates who toe the no-regulation line don't seem to grasp is
>that most Americans - most people - hate guns. *Hate* them. From their

FWIW,

GUN OWNERS IN US.   :60-65 million,
                     30-35 million own handguns
Source: NRA FIREARMS FACT CARD 1993

Other than this lone factoid, I don't see where you could possibly have
gotten the above. I don't recall any polls asking, "Do you hate guns?" I,
before becoming involved in the subject through an interest in history and
things military, was indifferent towards them. I suspect many who haven't
been whipped into some "baby-killing assault engines of death" frenzy by the
press, are similarly indifferent.

>To most, the difference between a deer rifle and an "assault" rifle is like
>the difference between sex in marriage and an orgy.

Yes, so do you approve of their ignorance? Do you attempt to correct it? Do
you feel legislation based on it is appropriate?

    
    I am afraid that whatever the other merits of DAVIS' argument,
    
    "Most people hate guns" is not a correct statement in the USA.
    
    I think this misinformation is honest, and comes about due to a
    limited circle of acquaintances.  I personally own no guns, but
    know many men and women who do, including a majority on my own
    street right here in the GMA.
    
    The statement is incorrect.
    
      bb

    > No one's suggesting that your are "no longer allowed to have thoughts"
    > and it's absurd and dishonest to make that leap. I'm pointing out a
    > parallel thought process.
    
    No, you're calling the question 'sinister'.  It isn't.  I want that
    'sinister' comment explained or repudiated.
    
    > Another grand rhetorical leap.
    
    Again, this is rooted in explaining why asking the question about the
    fedgov action in Waco is not sinister.
    
    > That doesn't mean that many here don't have a surreal view of the
    > political landscape. And it's one they share with the McVeigh's of 
    > the world.
    
    Calling it surreal doesn't answer the question, either.  From the
    'surreal' place where I sit, Waco was an obviously overzealous
    enforcement mistake, a case where BATF hoped to stage a quick in-n-out
    raid to acquire a bunch of (legally obtained) 'weaponry' as the
    showpiece for Geraldo-style tv coverage.  Only they blew it.  And
    instead of backing down and accepting egg-on-the-face, they escalated.  
    And in the end a bunch of keep-to-themselves, relatively harmless nuts
    got killed, with their kids.  BATF heads should have rolled, and that
    would have been that.  But there's been a coverup, instead, and it
    simply stinks.  "surreal view...shared with the McVeigh's of the
    world"?  Now you're namecalling instead of addressing the questions at
    the root of this issue.  Why do you find it so hard to address these
    issues?  What is so "sinister" in facing the possibility of fedgov
    murder and coverup?
    
    > I disagree. It's not the nature of government to accumulate power,
    > it's the  nature of man- it just so happens government is one of the
    > more popular vehicles.
    
    You would broaden the terms of the debate, and its an interesting place
    to go - but right now I'm interested directly in the public policy
    imnplications of the situation and prudence dictates we confine the
    discussion to the governmental sphere.  Open a new topic for the nature
    of power-grabbing, if you will.  Since you recognize the premise, treat
    the current topic as a mere example or case study (of abuses.)
    
    > What we really have to fear is individuals with pathological hunger
    > for power actually attaining positions of power. J Edger Hoover comes
    > to mind, as does Nixon.
    
    Right!  And I'd prefer not to hand such a one a ready-built tool for
    oppression, such as an FBI unencumbered by civil liberties concerns or
    a BATF emboldened by years of getting away with it all...or new
    legislation dreamt up by politicians eager to look as though they have
    a clue.  That approach is dangerous, Tom; that's exactly why we're
    objecting to it.  A tool ready-fashioned for abuses, as you confess
    you recognize, draws power-seekers.  Political appearances do not
    justify these additional law enforcement and investigative powers.
    
    > I'm not suggesting that we suspend doubt. If we want to protect our
    > freedoms and ourselves from the abuses of power by individuals within
    > our system, we need to keep a watchful and sceptical eye, and use the
    > power of our voice and our vote to root out the bad.
    
    Then you're going to have to work really hard to explain what you meant
    when someone doing just that was accused by you of asking a "sinister"
    question.
    
    >> DEA...INS...LA Police...LA County Sherriffs...FBI...BATF...And that's
    >> just the ones that we hear about.  You go ahead and disbelieve. 
    >> After all, the media isn't telling you any different.
    >
    > Where did you learn of these events, Doug? If not from the *Media*,
    > than from what? 
    
    That's disingenuous, Tom.  The media reports these things in
    isolation.  The media doesn't pick out the trend, though.  Now that it
    is called to your attention, why not?  Why is there no national debate
    on growing abuses of police and national law enforcement powers?  And
    asking that question is just part of that 200 years keeping a watchful
    and sceptical eye you seem to prefer we honor more in the breech than
    in actual practise, so don't be calling it sinister or surreal, again.
    Just consider us to be living up to your rhetoric.
    
    DougO

    RE: .602
    
    Now THAT'S appropriate.  8^)

    Still to be verified, Today Show reported that authorities have
    McVeigh's journal/diary in their possession.  It "alleges" that
    he originally planned to have additional bombs go off in Omaha
    and Phoenix simultaneously.  Not quite sure how/why those plans
    went off-track; glad they did.
    
    

Topic No. 3

Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 03:26:29 +0000 (GMT)
From: bglover@netcom.com (William Glover)
To: lball@unlinfo.unl.edu (larry ball)
Cc: noban@Mainstream.com, texas-gun-owners@zilker.net, roc@xmission.com,
Subject: Re: Our Beloved Pres and AT
Message-ID: <199504270326.DAA23150@netcom4.netcom.com>

> I heard on Public Radio the the Pres (oh blessed be his name) is 
> asking for 1,000 more Federal Police (Mach Schnell!!) and to be able 
> to use the Military to quell the terroristic threat that the citizens 
> present to our sovereign government.  Are we seeing the advent of the 
> divine right of Big Bubba?

He is indeed doing this, I have a news article which shows what he
wants to do. It includes;
	1000 new FBI agents etc...
	new materials to be put in fertilizer to identify it
	see if fertilizer can be made less explosive
	allow court warrants for a range of new spying on citizens
	federal crime for the use of chemical weapons
	crime to posses stolen explosives
	new ten year penality for the transfer of a firearm to criminal
	(the above is a bueatiful one, can anyone think of its uses?)
	stiffer penalities for crimes against federal workers.
	And essentially repeal the Posse Comitatus Act of 1894(I think).
	
The amazing thing is would then value federal workers more than you
and I. Cute, I feel real good about this in the country where all people
are to be treated as equal.

> Can anyone explain the issue of posse comitatus to me?  This indeed is
> becoming scary.
Posse Comitatus refers to the use of force in any country or the entire
population of a country above the age of fifteen, which the sheriff may
summon to his assistance in certain cases, as to aid him in keeping
the peace, in ou persuing and arresting felons etc...

Now, the Posse Comitatus Act of 1894 prevented the use of the military
in internal affairs, social criminal or whatever. Repealing it would
in effect make the US armed forces the new police force of the federal
government.

Think long and hard about his one before signing on to it. 
Kind of wish they taught real history in civics classes these days. 
They used to. :-}...

Bill .... bglover@netcom.com
=======================================================================
Being a citizen is a full-time job. If we wish to reclaim our rights,
we first must begin by reclaiming our responsibilities.

As we move deeper into the age of the sound bite --- We often say a
picture is worth a thousand words, we now KNOW that a picture often
needs a thousand words to explain it.
=======================================================================