Conference back40::soapbox

RE   <<< Note 14.1473 by GRANPA::MWANNEMACHER "NRA member in good standing" >>>

>    Ever use the roads in Cow Hampshire, George?  Do you pay tax for that?
    
  Yes I do.

  States get plenty of Federal funds for things like roads. And when I go up Rt
3 to DEC Merrimack I pay my toll at the booth like everyone else.

  George

  Taxachusetts isn't. Based on the tax rate per dollar earned, we fall around
22nd place which is the middle of the pack. Our tax per person in in the top
three only because our income per person is in the top three.

  George

    
    
    
    So Mass doesn't get any fed road funds nor are there any toll roads,
    right George?
    

RE    <<< Note 356.5 by GRANPA::MWANNEMACHER "NRA member in good standing" >>>

>    So Mass doesn't get any fed road funds nor are there any toll roads,
>    right George?
    
  That's not what you asked. You asked if I paid for roads in New Hampshire.
I do.

  George

    
    
    
    I think you get my point, George.  You keep trying to carry your water
    around in a sieve.

    This troubles me.

    
    All right, who changed the title 8^o!?

Whoever it was just changed it back.

    
>>    All right, who changed the title 8^o!?

	wachoo mean?

   
|  What do you call it when they withhold damn near 6% of your paycheck
|  each week [rest of whyyyyyyyyyyyyyn deleted]....
   
   First, it's less than 5%, but I call it an income tax.
   What do you call it?
   
   (We live in Massachusetts.  I now work in New Hampshire.  Erica works
   in Rhode Island.  We pay taxes in all three states.  So quit your
   whyyyyyyyyyyning.)
   
   								-mr. bill

    How coy.
    
    8^)

Mr. Bill -- 

What taxes do you pay in NH?

RE    <<< Note 356.7 by GRANPA::MWANNEMACHER "NRA member in good standing" >>>

>    I think you get my point, George.  You keep trying to carry your water
>    around in a sieve.

  What point?

  Some N.H. resident who works in Mass complained about having to pay taxes in
    Massachusetts.

  I said big deal, you all live as close to Boston as you can and use Boston
    economic services.

  You asked me if I paid taxes for driving on N.H. roads.

  I said yes I do.

  Then you took a hard turn out of the discussion and complained about paying
    for Mass roads (which has nothing to do with the point I'm making)

  I asked what that had to do with anything.

  Now you start talking about water and sieves.

  My point is that if you use services you should pay for them.

  What point are you trying to make?

  George

>   First, it's less than 5%, but I call it an income tax.

It is 5.95%, which for all intents and purposes is 6% to me. I don't know
where you got the less than 5% from, but it ain't what a non-res pays

>   What do you call it?

Why, Bill, I already told you. I call it pocket-picking. When I was paying
it I got no services and no representation.
   
>   (We live in Massachusetts.  I now work in New Hampshire.  Erica works
>   in Rhode Island.  We pay taxes in all three states.  So quit your
>   whyyyyyyyyyyning.)

The only tax you pay in NH is a meals tax if you eat in a resto up here
or a room tax if you stay in a hotel. Those are thoe only kind we have
unless you own property here. Now who's whining?

    
    Live free... or live in Massachusetts.
    

Rhodes Island?  That must be a bugger to commute to!!

Chris.

>    you all live as close to Boston as you can and use Boston
>    economic services.

I personally don't live as close to Boston as I can (over 25 miles
north of the border and over 65 from Boston) and make no use
whatsoever of PRM "economic services". Do I have to get stiffed because
I go to the North End a few times a year like any other tourist?

    RE: Rhode Island...
    
    isn't an island, so no, it's not particularly hard to
    get to. It's just that no one wants to...
    
    -b

    
    
    You tell me George.
    
    
    
    Is there anyone else out there who didn't see the point I was trying to
    make?
    
    
    
    

oh, I thought you meant it`s (almost) namesake, just off the coast
of Turkey.  :)

Chris.

Jack, if not for the proximity of Massachusetts, you wouldn't be working
for DEC.

    Let's see....
    
    They both have horrible accents.
    They can both be miserable in the Winter.
    The drivers from both states suck in their own special ways.  
    Your car will rust equally as well on either side of the border.  
    You will wait for a miserably long time waiting for tolls going to or
    coming from either state.
    
    I see a lot of commonality here.  
    
    Brian

| <<< Note 356.7 by GRANPA::MWANNEMACHER "NRA member in good standing" >>>




| You keep trying to carry your water around in a sieve.


	HEY!!!!!! Leave my memory out of this!!!!


Glen

| <<< Note 356.17 by MPGS::MARKEY "Specialists in Horizontal Decorum" >>>


| Live free... or live in Massachusetts.


	Brian, the above is not a true statement. The homeless live free in our
state..... :(

| <<< Note 356.19 by MOLAR::DELBALSO "I (spade) my (dogface)" >>>


| Do I have to get stiffed because I go to the North End a few times a year like
| any other tourist?

	Dependzzzzz on how much ya drink. 

    >Brian, the above is not a true statement. The homeless live free in our
    >state..... :(

    Only because the predominately dem legislature hasn't figured
    out how to tax them yet... :-) :-)

    -b

re: .23, Gerald

Twenty years ago, that may have been the case, but DIGITAL has established
itself as a major employer in NH over that time. It could be argued that
if DIGITAL picked up and moved its headquarters and most operations out
of the PRM, it would still be quite reasonable to maintain the existing
workforce in NH. Over the past 20 years we've hired scads of people from
all over the country and relocated them here - it isn't a matter of drawing
strictly on the PRM workforce.

re .29,

I thought Digital had established itself as a major unemployer.  :/

Chris.

Agagagagagag!

   
|  make no use whatsoever of PRM "economic services".
   
   When did Logan airport move to New Hampshire?
   
   -----
   
   And you work in New Hampshire, so I'm still trying to figure out why you
   would be witholding for a non-resident tax in Mass.
   
   But as for the 5.95% equals 6%, only if you earn an income soooooooo
   high that your exemptions and credits drop to zero.  (The way to get
   progressive income taxes into a "flat" tax is to have disappearing
   exemptions.)  Otherwise, you adjust the witholding so that the proper
   amount is witheld.  For mere Digital peons, it's about 5%.  (At least,
   that's what all the New Hampshire resident peons gloated over when
   they told us Mass residents that they were getting a 5% "raise"
   when our group relocated to New Hampshire.)
   
   
   Now, can you explain to me how it comes to pass that New Hampshire
   holds about 4% of the income of their retired residents hostage?
   
   								-mr. bill

RE    <<< Note 356.21 by GRANPA::MWANNEMACHER "NRA member in good standing" >>>

>    You tell me George.
>    
>    Is there anyone else out there who didn't see the point I was trying to
>    make?
    
  How should I know? Your question asks me to read the minds of every noter
who may be reading this file.

  But I'm curious. Why are you ducking this discussion by trying to go down
a rat hole of debating who did or did not get an obscure point you are trying
to make? Why not just spell it out and get on with the discussion?

  George

    
    I did enjoy driving the border to do major shopping in NH.
    Boy, do I miss that! Sales tax in Alameda Cty, CA is 8.25%!!
    
    Apart from that, the two are quite interchangable, but I grant
    you, you might find more style (fashions and cuisines especially)
    in Boston than in Concord (or is the capital Manchester, I forgot).
                                  

  Concord.

  George

  Thompson seedless

    
    
    Point is, you get services from every other of the 50 states when you
    are in those states and pay no income tax.  Why should Mass be any
    different.
    
    Mike

>   When did Logan airport move to New Hampshire?

I have used Logan airport exactly once since 1985 - this past Christmas
when my daughter flew in and out from Louisiana. I don't do a lot of flying
myself, but what there is of it goes through Manchester, NH. As I do no
international travel whatsoever, I haven't any need of Logan.
   
>   And you work in New Hampshire, so I'm still trying to figure out why you
>   would be witholding for a non-resident tax in Mass.

Between November of '93 and April of '94 my only office (and hence my
paycheck) was in Littleton, MA.
   
>   But as for the 5.95% equals 6%, only if you earn an income soooooooo
>   high that your exemptions and credits drop to zero.

If you are a non-resident, your exemptions and credits are nil. The witholding
is 5.95%.

>   Now, can you explain to me how it comes to pass that New Hampshire
>   holds about 4% of the income of their retired residents hostage?

Que?
   

Massachusetts is not different.  If you live in New Jersey and work in New York,
it works the same way.  If you earn income in a state you don't live in, you
pay tax to that state.  Your home state lets you deduct that tax from the tax
you owe them.

   
   To emphasise what Gerald said.  Your resident state credits you the tax
   you owe non-resident states.  This is nearly universal.  You live
   in one of the exceptions that prove the rule - the Live Free or Die
   State.
   
   Finally....
   
|If you are a non-resident, your exemptions and credits are nil. The witholding
|is 5.95%.
   
   Nonsense.
   
   								-mr. bill

>				Your resident state credits you the tax
>   you owe non-resident states.  This is nearly universal.

And this is relevant to what? I guess I don't follow.

>   Nonsense.

Well, I'll double check this weekend. The only "exemption" I recall was
that the tax withheld, for days I was paid but did not physically work in
the PRM, was due me. Hardly an "exemption or credit" to give back to me
what even they couldn't legally take.

    I just find it ironic that "taxation without representation" got folks
    riled enough to fight a revolution, and now it's just hunky-dory.

> And this is relevant to what? I guess I don't follow.

If NH had an income tax, NH residents could deduct their MA income tax from
their NH income tax.  People who lived in MA and worked in NH would pay
NH income tax and deduct it from their MA income tax.  There are states
that have reciprocal agreements so that cross-border commuters don't pay
income tax to the state they work in, but these are states with a fairly
balanced commuting flow (I think Pennsylvania and NJ have such an agreement).

This has all been discussed ad nauseam in the NH notesfile.

    When I drive back roads in my home town, I think the excise tax is a
    good idea.
    
    -Jack

re: .43, Gerald

I guess I'm still missing the relevance to the discussion at hand. Certainly
"IF" NH had an income tax, those things would be true. But it doesn't. In
the cases where it is true, if the commuter works in a state with lower
taxes, they still pay, in total, the higher tax of their own state. And if
they work in a state with a higher tax, I assume they pay nothing to their
own state. Which is what happens to a NH resident holding a job in the PRM.
It may be "universal", but that doesn't make it fair or proper. Like Chelsea
said, taxation without representation, etc.

I was responding to Mike's claim that Massachusetts was different from the
other states.

    re: .45
    
    Funny, I went in the other direction, and I wouldn't have
    it any other way.  I grew up in Massachusetts, lived there
    for 25 years, and you couldn't PAY me to go back.  
    
    You couldn't pay me to wait in line to do even the simplest
    of errands.  To live in overcrowded towns of people who have
    no idea who you are, and who look at you like you are about
    to steal from them if you bother to say, "hello." To try and
    go to the registry.  To try and drive into Boston, let alone
    do anything there.  No thank you.
    
    Give me someplace that has breathing room, pretty friendly
    people and a slower pace any day.  I'll survive the lack of
    "culture", thanks.  When I think "culture", I'm afraid 
    Massachusetts isn't quite the mecca that comes to mind.
    
    Mary-Michael

    re.45
    
    I'd submit that you should stay out of Colorado too
    
    thanks

    > quality of life
    > is exactly equivalent to the cost of life
    
    It's the same in the PRM.  You come into the world with nothing, and
    you leave with nothing - regardless of where you live.
    
    As for relative quality, fine.  Ignore the Nashua Symphony (third
    tier), the New Hampshire Symphony (high second tier), Monadnock Music
    (firts tier), the New Hampshire Opera League (second tier), and many
    other "cultural" organizations.  Ignore the Currier Gallery of Art, and
    its Zimmerman house - can the PRM boast a private residence designed by
    Frank Lloyd Wright among its publicly available museum treasures? 
    Ignore Tuckerman Ravine, ignore the White Mountains, ignore the
    Kankamagus Highway.  Ignore restaurants.  Ignore used book stores. 
    Ignore everything good and concentrate on putting Cow Hampshire in its
    place as the pits that you left.
    
    And of course ignore the knee-jerking of left wingers in the PRM,
    ignore the fact that people there vote for Fatboy because he's a
    Kennedy, not because he might be an effective politician working for
    the betterment of the country.  Ignore driving styles that treat stop
    signs as slow-down signs, yield signs as speed-up signs, and trafic
    lights as year-round Christmas tree decorations, and ignore drivers who
    blast along at 65 or better in the breakdown lane.
    
    You might be surprised to learn that we who fly through Manchester can
    fly just about anywhere we like - even to other countries.  Sure, we
    have to change planes at Kennedy or Dulles, but at least we don't have
    to fight our way through the Sumner and Callahan Tunnels just to drive
    to and from the airport.
    
    You might also mention that defending yourself and your family would be
    much easier in Cow Hampshire than it is in the PRM.  If, of course, it
    were necessary.  Sure, we have crime here, too, but let's start looking
    at insurance rates to see which is the safer place to live.
    
    You pays your money and you takes your choice.  I chose Cow Hampshire,
    and I'm damn glad I did.  The longer I live here the happier I am that
    I didn't get stuck living in the PRM.

   <<< Note 356.32 by PERFOM::LICEA_KANE "when it's comin' from the left" >>>
   
>   When did Logan airport move to New Hampshire?
    
    	What's the point?  Anyone flying into, or out of Logan (or any
    	major airport) pays surcharges to the airport as part of the 
    	ticket price.  THAT's what pays for the airport.  And for Logan
    	in particular, most people driving to the airport end up paying
    	tolls to get there, thereby paying for their use of the roads
    	to get there.
    
    	You'll probably also find that many people choose to fly out of
    	Manchester airport rather than go to Logan...

    My favorite Mass vs N.H. story:

    I grew up in Mass. I lived close to 128. Shortly before I moved out 
    of my parent's house 15 years ago, a bridge that I used to take to 
    get from their house to 128 was condemned. Because of this I had to
    travel an extra 5 miles or so each time I needed to get to 128.
    Everyone was told the bridge would be fixed real soon. 

    I moved to Southern Merrimack. Since then the State of New
    Hampshire has eased my commute from RT3 to my home several times. 
    They rebuilt the old exit 8 (now 11). They built the new exit
    8 (which I take off hours), and they built exit 10.

    Meanwhile the bridge to my parents house still has not been
    repaired.....

    					Ed

re: reciprocal taxes
   As I understand it, one of the most unfair situations that has
   occurred with interstate income tax issues had to do with workers
   in the Portsmouth NH/Kittery ME area. I believe, but may be incorrect
   that the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard (or some other major employer in
   the area thought to be "New Hampshire based") is actually located
   in Kittery. The State of Maine apparently has some sort of draconian
   tax code which allows them to assess an income tax on the HOUSEHOLD
   INCOME of any Maine employee. The result is that for those NH residents
   working at the shipyard (or where ever it is, or anyplace else in Maine
   for that matter), not only do they have the privilege of paying Maine
   income tax, but their spouse does, as well.

   This was taken to court under the "taxation without representation"
   argument which was basically tossed out with a ruling that said that
   no one forced anyone to take a job there - if you sought employment
   there of your own free will, you were subject to the taxation.

   Wotta contree!

    the only way that i would ever live in new hampster is if i rented an
    apartment. i have friends who live there, and they are paying through
    the nose on their property taxes. 
    
    nice place to shop (tax free), but i'll stick to the prm. 

    they both stink (live in Ma - work in NH)...
    
    Chip

    
    Set mode/rathole=on
    
      I have noticed that there are new Taxachusetts license plates.  They
     are Blue/White background, with a whale's tail and seagulls, and the
     slogan is "Preserve the Trust".  This must be a Weldism.  Patrician
     Bill has gone left-coast.  I expect to see him skateboard around
     Beacon Hill eating sushi next...
    
      For those unfamiliar, NH has had "Live Free or Die" on its plates
     since I was young (if I ever wuz).  The old green on white Mass
     plates had no slogan till Ed King put "Make It in Massachusetts"
     there, in his attempt to attract industry.  Then the Duke put a
     spam slogan on "The Spirit of America", which flopped.  It was
     intended to refer to 1776, etc.
    
      What are the atmospherics of "Preserve the Trust" ?  While the
     picture appears environmentalist, there are other problems.  It
     sounds wishy-washy conservative, but doesn't it also conjure up
     defense of big business ?  Who cam up with this ?
    
     Set mode/rathole=off
      
      bb

    
    
    	The Whale plates in Mass cost $70 vs the $30(?) for regular
    red/white/blue plates. The extra money goes to a save the whales
    campaign I believe. I can find out more if you like...my neighbor works
    at the registry in Worcester.
    
    
    jim

    .2
    
    >>Cow Hampshire is "Kennedy Free" and tastes great!<<
    
    Ah Yes! but it's the sometime home of Reagan Lite. (Or, a
    lite in the Bush isn't bright enough)

    
    Tax's (user fees) are built into your plane ticket.  Fly out of
    any airport and you're paying a tax.
    

    re: Note 356.45 by CALLME::MR_TOPAZ
    
    Boy you'd love it where I live.  You'd actually have to kick back
    and relax.  Just think, if we got a hair across our a$$ we could
    pack up and head on down to the city and got hog wild dontcha know.
    Or we could just hang out here and look out at the green mountains
    and smell the nice mountain air (along with the smell of steaks on
    the bbq) and rather than hearing horns, sirens and gunshots you
    could hear birds chirping.  On second thought, you'd hear the
    occasional KABOOM of a gunshot, but at least you know it ain't headed
    at you.
    
    That metropolitain big city Atlanta crap can stay right where it is.  
    I know where it is, and I know how to get there.
    
    MadMike

                      <<< Note 356.58 by TOOK::GASKELL >>>

    .2
    
    >>Cow Hampshire is "Kennedy Free" and tastes great!<<
    
   > Ah Yes! but it's the sometime home of Reagan Lite. (Or, a
   > lite in the Bush isn't bright enough)

    Kennebuckport is in Maine.

>                                                         ignore drivers who
>    blast along at 65 or better in the breakdown lane.

Where it's illegal to drive in the breakdown lane, I've never seen anybody
doing more than 55.

re .53:

Maine bases the tax *bracket* on total household income, but they don't (and
can't) tax income earned outside Maine by non-residents.

Thanks for the correction, Gerald - I wasn't quite sure I had it entirely
right. In any event, a sorry state of affairs.

    >    >>Cow Hampshire is "Kennedy Free" and tastes great!<<
    
    >   > Ah Yes! but it's the sometime home of Reagan Lite. (Or, a
    >   > lite in the Bush isn't bright enough)
    
    >    Kennebuckport is in Maine.
    
     We now return you to Rosemary's regularly scheduled anti republican
    diatribe and hate fest.

    Mom was appalled to learn that New Hampshire didn't have a state-wide
    kindergarten program.  One of the drawbacks of running almost
    everything off property taxes.
    
    I like where I am just fine.  Nashua is the right size for my comfort
    level -- large enough to have a selection of shops and theater screens,
    not so big that I think of it as a city.  I do most of my travelling
    out of Manchester except for Christmas, when it's suicide to fly
    anything but non-stop.  (The only reason I'm guaranteed non-stop is
    that I'm flying to DFW; if I were headed to a smaller city, I could
    easily be as well off with Manchester.)  I'm not interested in fine
    dining or art galleries -- or the kind of price tags one finds there. 
    Even if I lived in Massachusetts, I'd still deal with Boston as a
    tourist, not a native.

    Ah, the curmudgeonly Mr Topaz, able as ever to find the silver lining in
    every dark cloud.
    
     You'd have loved the plane trip down to RSW, Don. You could have sat
    next to Mike Barnicle and his kids. Another perpetually cheerful
    fellow.

One thing I've wondered about in Cow Hampshire: Why is it that one of the 
country's most conservative states is one of the few (if not only) states 
to dabble in socialism? State likker stores...can't trust that to free
enterprise.

I think there are other states with state liquor stores.  It's probably a
remnant of the temperance movement.

    Ohio has state liquor stores, though they can now be privately owned,
    which seems rather confusing to me.  Is it a state store or is it a
    private store? 
    
    
    -steve

    VA, NY, PA, FL all have state liquor or state sanctioned liquor stores.
    
    PA has the stupidest liquor laws I've seen.  You have to go to a
    distributor to buy beer unless of course you buy it in a restaurant at
    resto prices.  

Sorry - Liquor stores in the Empire State are strictly privatized.

    But aren't they liquor only as in you cannot buy liquor in the local
    Wal-Mart/grocery store/variety?  I also thought they didn't sell beer
    like we do here in our local packy.  
    
    

    
    re, .57 - so the beeded and tie-dyed can fork over $40 xtra for
             the fishtails, huh.  And "Preserve the Trust" means,
             "See, I'm better than you - I helped save the environment".
    
       How does it compare with a vanity number, which I understand is
       limited to 6 characters ?  You know "SOAPBX" or somesuch.
    
       bb

Privately owned and operated liquor stores in NYS sell only liquor and
wine products - no beer, no mixers, no cigarettes, no munchies. I don't
know whether they carry lottery tickets or not since I left NYS after
the Lottery was introduced.

Grocery stores, drug stores, etc. sell beer and perhaps wine - not sure
about the wine.

    Thanks Jack, that's what I meant.  Grocery and variety stores can sell
    wine.  I found a great deal on family sized boxes of Taylor's Table
    White at Eckard's the last time I saw my brother.  

    It's no wonder there are so many homicides in New York state.

>    Thanks Jack, that's what I meant.  Grocery and variety stores can sell
>    wine.

That must be new.  When I live in NY, only liquor stores could sell wine.
Come to think of it, I remember the NY wine lobby pushing for grocery store
sales.  They wanted it to apply to only NYS wines!

    	Re socialized liquor stores:
    
    	It is my recollection that the liquor prices were generally 
    	lower at the NH liquor stores than in the Mass package stores.

As I mentioned, I wasn't sure about the wine. I just called Mom, and she
said she isn't sure either, as they only buy wine at liquor stores and
don't know of its availability elsewhere.

Er, Mom says "Hi" . . . 

 Hi Mom!

re: Joe

Rumor has it that on average, not counting specials held elsewhere, the
prices in New Hampshire State Liquor Stores are the lowest in the country.

I know that when I visit my sisters down near Philly, they usually ask
me to bring a supply as they can't touch NH prices in PA, NJ, DE or MD.

>    	Re socialized liquor stores:
>    
>    	It is my recollection that the liquor prices were generally 
>    	lower at the NH liquor stores than in the Mass package stores.

Does that make them somehow not socialized?

   Lots of things change.                         
   
   Grocery stores sell wine and beer....  (And the large supermarkets
   make the largest of Super Stop & Shops and Star Market Pluses look
   like convienience stores.)
   
   Liquor stores sell liquor, wine, and beer.  And lottery tickets.
   And munchies.
   
   Convienience stores sell lottery tickets and beer.  And munchies.
   And flowers.  And fruit.  And newspapers.  And diapers.
   
   And there are breweries in Manhattan again.
   
   
   Some things don't change.  Con Edison will still cheerfully rip up
   two blocks for two days and nights looking for a gas leak.  And the
   employees who are supposed to be wearing hardhats don't.
   
   								-mr. bill

    
    RE: .84
    
    >Does that make them somehow not socialized?
    
    No, what it does is make the government realize the benefits of
    capitalism...
    

re .86:

Huh?

         <<< Note 356.83 by MOLAR::DELBALSO "I (spade) my (dogface)" >>>
    
    	Hey Jack,

>I know that when I visit my sisters down near Philly, they usually ask
>me to bring a supply as they can't touch NH prices in PA, NJ, DE or MD.

	On Rt 40 in Maryland, about halfway between Baltimore and the
    	Del Mem Bridge, is (or at least used to be) a liquor store
    	called Midway Liquors.  My parents always stopped there on their
    	visits to Baltimore from NJ, and stocked up.  That store had the
    	best prices that they, or any of my relatives in Baltimore,
    	could ever find.
    
    	Just an FYI if you or your relatives ever drive out that way.
    
    	And I can't recall my parents ever shopping in NH liquor
    	stores, so I don't know if they could comment on comparisons
    	between Midway Liquors and the NH stores.
    

Thanks, Joe - I'll pass that on to the brothers-in-law who do the interstate
booze runs down there. :^)

    .84> Does that make them somehow not socialized?
    
    	No.  It was just a FWIW factoid.

    re: .87
    
    Huh what?
    
     
    Is it socialized, or is it a capital venture by the government?
    
    Semantically speaking, yes, it's socialized... but if the best
    capitalists turn out to be the state government, then so be it. When
    that changes, turn it over to whomever can do it best/cheapest/etc.
    

>    Semantically speaking, yes, it's socialized... but if the best
>    capitalists turn out to be the state government, then so be it. When
>    that changes, turn it over to whomever can do it best/cheapest/etc.

That's an interesting point. I've often wondered if a privatized liquor
sales system in NH could ever possibly offer the prices that the state
currently does. No doubt they could be more profitable at the consumer's
expense, but I don't know how desireable that is in this case. (I.E.
I prefer to keep it cheap.)

    .67
    
    Where did I ever say that the Zimmerman house is  either livable or
    maintainable?  It is art; and I asked, specifically, if the PRM can
    boast a FLW-designed residence, which many people consider high art, in
    its coterie of publicly available museum treasures.
    
    Apparently you can't give an answer that is favorable to the PRM, so
    you blow smoke.

    .91
    
    > turn it over to whomever can do it best...
    
    Whoever.  The clause "Whoever can do it best..." is, as a unit, the
    indirect object of the verb "turn ... over [to]," where "it" is the
    direct object.
    
    NNTTM.

    Long before "Live Free or Die" NH had the white-on-green plates with
    the slogan of "Scenic". 
    
    
    During The Mel Thompson VS Dukakis "border wars" there were the red-on-
    white X plates, intended to look similar to the then current PRM plates
    and thusly confuse the secret police agents from the PRM who were
    lurking around NH liquor stores, waiting to pounce on anyone who had
    the unmitigated audacity to cross the border to purchase their liquid
    happiness. 

    <guffaw!>

    
    RE: .94
    
    Police brutality!!! Police brutality!!!!
    

    A nude hampster and taxachusettes....

    SNARF!

Nawth Cahlana has state liquor stores. Retaurants and clubs sell you
"setups" and you byob. (Last time I was there.)

They also have fun places like the one my friend introduced me to. I had
to drive up to the front of the house, turning my lights off at a certain
place in the driveway. Sit in the car, don't move until the porch light
comes on. Then and only then go to the door, knock, yell a certain
question.  From inside comes "C'mon in!" Go in, there's a guy sitting on
a couch looking me up and down; I ask the question you're supposed to
ask, he gets up, looks out the window, takes the cushion off the couch,
and I now see it's filled front to back, side to side, top to bottom with
pints of noname bourbon (should have been labeled "Rotgut Paint Remover &
Jet Fuel"). 

It adds an extra dimension to leisuretime activities...

Art

	New Hampshire had something that MA will never be able to match. In
fact, I would venture to say that this was the best thing NH ever had to offer.
It was.....






                                  Uncle Gus

    .96
    
    The Zimmerman house is art.  I've said that.  It's fact that not all
    people like the same things in art.  As for Wright's having been a
    failure, check out the "Check-Out Room" topic.  Livability is in the
    eye of the beholder, and it's a fact that the Zimmermans lived in that
    house for a number of years and expressed satisfaction with its form
    and function.
    
    As for delivering the truth, I hate to remind you of this, but your
    name is Don, not Moses.

      <<< Note 356.80 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "Whatever happened to ADDATA?" >>>
                                   -< FWIW >-

>    	Re socialized liquor stores:
    
>    	It is my recollection that the liquor prices were generally 
>    	lower at the NH liquor stores than in the Mass package stores.


Never thought I'd see an endorsement of socialism from Joe. Hell, *I* don't 
even endorse socialism, and the folks in here accuse us lefties of that all 
the time! :')

Tom

    Re: .103
    
    >As for delivering the truth, I hate to remind you of this, but your
    >name is Don, not Moses.
    
    Nor is it Eric....

    
    BWAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

    Eric the law giver?

    Excuse me...just got a chance to read through this string...

    Re .32 Mr Bill - 

    (In a reply where you are comparing the Mass/N.H taxes you state:
   
>   Now, can you explain to me how it comes to pass that New Hampshire
>   holds about 4% of the income of their retired residents hostage?

    First, where do you get the 4% figure?

    Second, by almost any measure the retired population is the
    most wealthy group in the country. I thought you supported
    taxing the wealthy?

    Third, what would the tax rate be for those same people in
    Massachusetts?

    				Thank you,

    				Ed

Interesting comment on safety in Massachusetts found in #3232.295 of
MORTAL::NEW_HAMPSHIRE.

    
    Found 3273.* and 3274.* much more interesting.
    
    								-mr. bill

    
    ah mr bill....could you please take a moment and reply to my
    .108? I really am interested in where you got this 4% figure.
    
    					Thanks you (again),
    
    					Ed
    
    
    
    

There's some discussion going on in another file regarding law enforcement
bodies in MA. I was thinking that perhaps they have more individual law
enforcement bodies by "type" than anyplace else of which I know. How
close am I on this list?

	Town/Village/City Police
	County sheriff
	State Police
	DMV Registry Police
	Massport Authority Police
	MBTA Police

Are there perhaps more of which I'm unaware?

    There's the (state) Capitol Police...
    
    The "Environment Police" (I have no idea what they do, but they are
    part of the Department of Environmental Quality Engineering)
    
    We used to have "MDC" (Metropolitan District Commission) Police
    but they were merged with the staties.
    
    There's the State Fire Marshall's office, which is also a
    Police organization, although it is primarily an investigative
    role...
    
    There's more I'm sure. Mass is a true "Police State" :-)
    
    -b

    Good question, Jack.  During town elections last week, we voted
    for someone who calls himself a "constable".  Not only that, there's
    a "first constable" and a "second constable".  There may be more,
    but I was afraid to look further.
    
    On the way out of the polls, we briefly talked to the guy who was
    apparently the incumbent "first constable", but I didn't ask him
    anything along the lines of "So, just what do you do, anyway?",
    because I didn't want to get arrested or something.  :-)
    
    Chris

    The "constables" deliver warrants and subpoenas.

    The sheriff's department does some of this as well, but they're
    more in the the civil lawsuit and confiscation of property
    business (like when the bank forecloses on your home, it's
    the sheriff's department that padlocks it).

    The sheriff's department is also in charge of the county
    jail, and in transporting prisoners to and from the
    courthouse.

    Of course, the state department of correction does this for
    the state prisons.

    Confused yet?

    -b

    >> The "constables" deliver warrants and subpoenas.
    
    Oh... now that's a full time job or two, for sure...
    I wonder why such a position is an elected office?
    
    >> The sheriff's department is also in charge of the county jail...
    
    Ah yes, county jail.  No doubt it exists for that special class
    of criminal who commits crimes against the county.
    
    >> Confused yet?
    
    Always! :-)
    
    Chris

>    Oh... now that's a full time job or two, for sure...
>    I wonder why such a position is an elected office?

In New York, the coroner is an elected position.

    >Ah yes, county jail.  No doubt it exists for that special class
    >of criminal who commits crimes against the county.
    
     It's actually for people who commit lesser crimes as well as those
    who are picked up and charged with a crime. It eliminates the need for
    every small town to have their own medium term holding pen.

    The Registry Police also merged with the Staties.  Staties were upset
    because of their view that the registry hacks were never real police to
    begin with.  I agree.  

	I think those who get pulled over and lose their license in NH should
be made to watch Uncle Gus reruns to help make them realize how bad things
could get!

(Might's well put this here as start a new topic.)

What are the details on the current issue with the Mass Pike regarding
the autotoll? I've only caught bits and pieces on the radio, in the
form of commercial time bought, apparently by one of the contractors
bidding on the deal, but it seems as though the Turnpike authority
is signing a deal for some sort of technology contract to automate
tolls for regular account holders. What I gather is that there are
two competing systems, one of which claims to be cheaper and higher
tech, and the Authority is leaning toward (or has signed with) the
more expensive low tech bidder.

Is this about the gist of it? Is there more than what's being said?

    Amtech's Tolltag seems to work just fine here in Texas.  Chris just
    about wet his pants when I blew through a toll booth here at ~35 MPH.
    I wonder what his reaction would be to the ones that go through at 50+
    MPH during rush hour.
    
    BTW, the Tolltag system can handle traffic passing at speeds > 200 MPH.
    
    Bob

    That little turbo-car won't do 200, Bob, so I'd stick with your normal
    speed.  Now, if you were to buy the Lambo Diablo or perhaps that new
    speed-king Porche, you might be able to give it a try.  8^)

    Sounds like Tolltag will cause accidents...  

Ban Tolltag!

    Hey, if it saves one life...
    

    .123
    
    Or a PA-28-200RT....

    	But ...  wasn't the Mass Pike toll only supposed to be temporary
    	until the road's original bonds were paid off?

    
    <--------------

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahaahahaha.....
    <gasp>,<gasp>,<gasp>,<sniff>......that's toooo funny!

    re: .124
    
    Why?

    re: .124
    
    I concur. No serious accident ever occured using Tolltags at the the
    tollgate, even before they put in the "speedbumps".  The Texas Turnpike
    Authority put in the speedbumps to slow down Tolltag customers because
    "they were endangering our booth personnel who might move might be 
     migrating across lanes of traffic". The only problem with that
    rational ? The tolltag lanes are centered in the middle of the tollway,
    and there are TTA offices on the right and left sides of the turnpike.
    No personnel need cross the tolltag lanes, even if they were too stupid 
    to look before crossing.

    -1 no kidding? i was only kidding...

    
    > "they were endangering our booth personnel who might move might be 
    > migrating across lanes of traffic". 

    I often wondered why they didn't build the roadway with a tunnel
    underneath the toll booths, to allow the toll takers to move between
    the extortion...er...toll booths in complete safety.