Conference back40::soapbox

    If this was on the PBS stations last night I was impressed. Very well
    documented. Very fitting to run it on MLK day. Its a grave reminder of
    where we all have come from and why. 

          <<< Note 255.1 by MKOTS3::RAUH "I survived the Cruel Spa" >>>

>    If this was on the PBS stations last night I was impressed. Very well

Yup. That's the one. 

Do you think cable stations are going to spend the money to produce stuff
like that? Hope CPB survives Newt & Co. Because I don't see the "market"
picking up the slack. 

    There is always another buyer out there. Maybe Discovery Channel or
    A&E. Or it might be run on a sunday afernoon during some slack time.

          <<< Note 255.3 by MKOTS3::RAUH "I survived the Cruel Spa" >>>

>    There is always another buyer out there. Maybe Discovery Channel or
>    A&E. Or it might be run on a sunday afernoon during some slack time.

I doubt it. Sure, they pick up the old PBS broadcasts for peanuts. But they 
don't get the $ to justify paying for a first-run. And certainly not enough 
to pay any kind of advance.

    re: .3
    
    There's one big difference, TLC and the Discovery Channel
    aren't free. CPB is a broadcast station.  It's free.  Now do you 
    really think all those people you are kicking off of Welfare have
    cable TV too?
    
    Mary-Michael

    
    Absolutely.  A refundable tax credit to every qualifying household
    to purchase a laptop and subscribe to cable and get NewTV.
    
    								-mr. bill

    	Why should I as a taxpayer be buying welfare recipients **ANY**
    	TV at all?

    
    You won't be buying them *ANY* TV.  They'll be getting tax credits.
    
    								-mr. bill

    	I'm not talking to you, bill.  I'm replying to .5

    Welp.... AT one time, there was a need. And the need was fulfilled. Now
    we have out grown it. And change must be made. Remember, I did not have
    these children, yet I am responsibile for them from cradel to jail
    house..... And this rodent hole can open into a large pit if you want
    it to do so.:)
    
    

    reply .5  ...Welfare have cable TV too?
    
    Yes most, if not all.
    
    --Doug C.
    
    

    .Now do you really think all those people you are kicking off of 
    .Welfare have cable TV too?
     
     More than you might expect.

    -1 yeah, prolly the Rainbow pkg...
    
       Chip

         <<< Note 255.10 by MKOTS3::RAUH "I survived the Cruel Spa" >>>
                                    -< .5 >-

>    Welp.... AT one time, there was a need. And the need was fulfilled. Now
>    we have out grown it. And change must be made. Remember, I did not have
>    these children, yet I am responsibile for them from cradel to jail
>    house..... And this rodent hole can open into a large pit if you want
>    it to do so.:)

What was the need that existed before and how is it otherwise being met 
now? Care to elaborate?    
    

    .7
    
    To give them and their children (especially their children) access to 
    quality television and educational programs they would have no hope 
    of seeing otherwise.  (In fact none of us would have access to them 
    if PBS were not there.)  I would rather give up my tax dollars for 
    PBS than to keep a pack of big mouthed, small brained, overfed, 
    underworked politicians sitting on their rear ends in Washington. 
    
    I would rather have an educated and aware welfare recipent on the public
    payroll than an ignorant one -- we have enough of them in the Senate
    already

    .14 We have illegal alliens coming in from around the world to raise
    their children upon the backs of the working class. 
    
    There is abortions, there is birth control, there are lots of means of
    which you can give a child a good life if your not able to work or
    provide. When the system fosters decades of people who cannot get out
    of the system and more money is poured into it to the point where it is
    breaking the tax payers back and even forcing them into bankruptcy.
    Enough is enough. You can wrap yourself in the flag of the child and
    gain much sympathy. And call those all those who oppose welfare are a 
    bunch of cold hearted monsters. But if you have never faced bankruptcy
    because of the higher cost of it all. You cannot feel for what it is
    like to understand the opposing camps side..... Next! 

    Back in the '70s or so there used to be a lot of wringing of hands at
    how there were so few news specials being produced anymore -- the Edward R.
    Murrow, CBS Reports types from the 50s and 60s.
    
    PBS changed all that, and has consistently produced and shown more high
    quality reporting in a month than you'd see in a decade on commercial
    TV, even at the high point -- Frontline, Nova are just the crown
    jewels, but then there's all kinds of stuff on history, art, philosphy,
    cooking, you name it. Real news programs that are more than just O.J
    and earthquakes.
    
    You're dreaming if you think commercial TV will move above the lowest
    common denominator to pay for this kind of stuff. Maybe somewhere in
    the chaff of cable you could find something, but I wouldn't hold my
    breath -- it's "57 channels and nothing to watch" as far as I can see
    (and I *don't* see it)
    
    What PBS gets from taxes is a pittance. And it goes disproportionately
    to small markets that can't raise their own dough. I live in a big
    city, and I'll still get to see decent, if somewhat reduced PBS. It's a
    damn shame though -- just another nail in the coffin of American
    civilization.
    
    Kit

re: .17

I don't really watch ANY TV.  Why should I help pay for your TV viewing habits
with my taxes?

Bob

    Same could be said for people paying taxes to support schools when they
    don't have children!
    
    -Jack

    .18 I hope like hell your faced someday with going bankrupt. I hope
    like hell you see that there are little or no safty nets for you as
    there is for others. And how the system encourages folks not to
    work.... 

    
    .19
    
    Yeah!  Finally I agree with Jack on something, altho I'm sure he's not
    serious 8^).                 

    Well Debra:
    
    I hate to say it but I'm for gutting the school system and privatizing
    it!  Sorry but I still luvs ya anyway and hope you feel the same!
    
    -Meaty!

re: .19

Only if you want to look silly...

It's not the government's responsibility to entertain anyone.

re: .20

Have a nice day.

Bob

    
    Well Meaty, that's great!  Now would you mind moving to Shirley and
    implementing this so I can stop paying to educate everyone else's
    children 8^)?

    POW? People on Welfare?

re: .25

O.K.  Then don't have a nice day.

Bob

    Hey, I just realized the acronym for Have a Nice Day is Hand...

    HaND...just to help identify it from normal usage.  8^)

    This the War on Poverty started by LBJ? All these years later, and all
    the billions spent, and all the increases in bureaucrats and the costs
    of such bureaucrats, would have to make one consider that this has not
    been a great success. And after 30 years of this crap, it has finally
    culminated in the proposed welfare reform. About  20 years too late.
    

                      <<< Note 255.30 by MYOSPY::CLARK >>>
                               -< Thank you LBJ >-

If you watched the show, you'd have learned that LBJ's Great Society
legislation specifically *excluded* and cash hand-outs. By contemporary
measure, it was a very conservative piece of legislation -  all training,
helping hand to GET A JOB. It was Nixon, under considerable pressure from
the Welfare Rights Organization, who established a minimum income. 

It's a bugger of a problem, no doubt about it. Most of blame lies in our 
culture (or lack thereof), not in the welfare system, IMHO. But regardless, 
we've got some systematic problems too.

I just hope the pols in washington don't indescriminately do some real hurt 
to real lives to make political hay. Conservatives argue that the libs did 
that by creating a welfare class. Maybe. Now that they've got the reins, 
what will be the consequence of their pulling the plug? If they go 
overboard, take my advice, batten down the hatches, boys. There'll be some 
trouble brewing, mark my words.

    
    I was watching a news program last year commenting on LBJ's
    "declaration of war on poverty". One memorable quote was as 
    follows.....
    
     We declared war on poverty. Poverty won.
    
     RG

    
    
    
    Was reading an article on the jobs corps program this morning.  Seems
    the program is riddled with drug and alcohol abuse as well as a murder
    here and there.  Problem was said to be that the bad things are just
    swept under the carpet and not addressed.
    
    
    Mike

     I like that black democrat from Camden, NJ's attitude. He really
    sounds to be on the ball.
    
     Did you see that black girl that was on last night? She was a 3rd
    generation teenage mother / welfare recipient. "I only went to school
    when I knew there was going to be a fight or when one of my friends had
    some weed." Oh, excellent! How nice for you to have a child to care for
    at 14. Although it did sound like she was starting to get her life
    together- graduating from high school and wanting to go to college. But
    sheesh! What a mess.
    
     It seems like too many of the stories they tell were like the hispanic
    woman, who had her first child at 17, subsequently dropping out of the
    10th grade, and her second at 18. Isn't 17 a little old to be in 10th
    grade?
    
     I don't think the solution is to merely throw sticks at the problem.
    We need carrots, too. My proposal is to have a meager base level of
    assistance which you get for existing and being motivated enough to
    fill out the forms (not for unlimited time.) This base level can be
    supplemented with rewards for doing things attending school, undergoing
    job training, etc. No additional monies ought to be provided for those
    that become pregnant while on welfare. Responsible behavior should be
    rewarded; irresponsible behavior must not be rewarded.

    re: .19
    
    Jack!  We agree on something!  A town works to upgrade it's schools,
    more people with children move in to take advantage of it, and
    wham!  my taxes go up even though I have no children.  Then suddenly
    we have to build bigger schools and it costs even more money. I should
    get a tax CREDIT because I do not contribute to overcrowding, 
    increasing population or the use of additional resources.  But no!
    I subsidize everyone else who automatically gets a deduction 
    because they figured out how to reproduce!!  Now, what was
    that about reforming the system?  :-)
    
    Mary-Michael

    .19 .35 and when your old enough and well off enough to have one.
    Others have had many.

It is in everyones best interest that the youth of or society be educated
and so, as a member of society we contribute to that common good.

And the opportunity for education is there for everyone (who paid for your
education?).

If you don't educate them now, you'll be supporting them later. Which would you
chose?

Doug.

    .If you don't educate them now, you'll be supporting them later.
    
     Or need protection from them.

    re: .32
    
  >   We declared war on poverty. Poverty won.
    
    Well, to be accurate, poverty won after the War on Poverty was
    essentially abandonned.
    
    Throughout the 60s and early 70s the poverty rate fell to record lows.
    This was partially the result of the movement of the elderly from the
    cohort with the largest poverty rate to that with the lowest poverty
    rate (They hit the glory years of Social Security, Medicare came along,
    they retired when unions and the resultant pensions still meant
    something, etc)
    
    But poverty fell for children, too, partially as a result of the social
    welfare programs associated with the War on Poverty.  Since the mid-70s
    the poverty rate for children has risen steadily. This is partially the
    result of the relative cutting back in welfare and the demise of other
    social welfare programs. It is also partially due to more single-parent
    families. And, most fundamentally, it is due to the declining standard
    of living suffered by at half or more of the population as wages have
    stagnated or fallen, industrial jobs have left the cities, job security
    has vanished, etc.
    
    Kit

    
    .37
    
    Yep, yep, I know...I went through this argument a box or two ago. 
    Public education benefits everyone, bla bla bla.  I agree, but I don't
    hafta like it 8^).
    
    
    >And the opportunity for education is there for everyone (who paid for your
    >education?).
 
    I attended private schools.  So Mummy & Daddy paid for an education I 
    didn't receive as well as the one I did, and now my sister and I are
    paying for the service we're not using.  The public schools are making
    out like a bandit on my family 8^).
                  

    Bottom line is once again government charges exhobitent amounts for
    half hearted services when private does twice as good for half the
    price!  

    
    RE: .37
    
    Doug,
    
     You mean like those "What causes violence in America" specials which
    aired just recently? You know, those that "educated" us with all the
    "facts"??

    re: .37
    
    Mummy and Daddy paid for my education for the most part.  I
    went mostly to private school (would've went completely to
    private school if they hadn't kept closing them on me).
    
    I suppose you could also say that welfare programs that help
    people learn skills to get new jobs and support themselves
    would fall into the same category.  If you try and pick and
    choose the social programs you support, you're bound to run 
    into other people (like me) who want to get rid of the ones 
    you use.
    
    I'm honestly sick and tired of fighting with parents about
    what Johnny and Janey should learn and what they shouldn't 
    learn and what they should read and what they shouldn't read.
    And why public school isn't a religious institution and if you
    want one send your kids to private school. I would prefer that
    they all educate them at home and make them pass equivalency
    tests at this point and let me put MY tax dollars to keeping 
    people employed rather than football and soccer and baseball
    and who knows what else.  I got a perfectly sound education
    without those things, everybody's else kids can to.  
    
    Mary-Michael

    Yes...Yes...Yes....Have home school consortiums where the children all
    get together for activities...parentally run!  That would be great and
    would allow me to spend that tax money in the private sector!  Too bad
    some parents simply cannot teach and other children simply wouldn't do
    well in a homeschooling environment!!
    
    Rgds.,
    
    -Jack

    Jack,
    
    there are already homeschooling groups for some socialization. 
    However, as those on AFDC are finding out, if you start taking money
    from the guvmint, they get to start making the rules.
    
    meg

    I have had the misfortunate experience to have rented to a member of
    AFDC. She was 24, working on her 3rd child by casual contact. And she
    had a drug problem. She gave me a security deposit, and one weeks rent
    to move in... it took me three months to get her out because she didn't
    want to pay to stay. She snorted/drank the rent. 
    
    She had a free lawyer, I had to pay for mine. She had three kids by 24.
    I had my first when I was 38. WE all foster this woman to raise and
    abuse her children. And coddle her because she is a irresponsible. 
    Where and when does the coddling stop? 
    
    All of the working folks will give you a past record of previous
    landlords. AFDC folks do not have to do so. And if you try to get some
    past refernces from their past landlords, its now called stalking....
    Nothing to do with the fact that your trying to run a business and
    trying to protect your property...
    
    And if you deny her housing, she will get her free lawyer to free rent
    for a year. Not a bad deal...

     The government makes it tough to be a landlord, then they cry about
    the lack of affordable housing...

    ...and when you turn to the goverment for help.... the thumb their
    noses at you as they take your properties... Bankruptcy can be a real
    crushing experience.

    George:
    
    I've harped in this conference time and time again on the value of
    property rights and their constitutionality.  With the exception on ONE
    person, it seems most are in agreement with me.  Property rights are
    the backbone of America.  This is why I am a big proponent of gun
    rights!
    
    -Jack

    Not only that, that's why you're for gun rights in a big way!

	Jack, who is this ONE person?

    AAAAAHAAAAAAAAAHAAAAA.....I'll give you three guesses Glen...The first
    two don't count!!!!

	I don't wanna guess Jack..... 

           <<< Note 255.47 by WAHOO::LEVESQUE "luxure et supplice" >>>

 >    The government makes it tough to be a landlord, then they cry about
 >   the lack of affordable housing...
    
    A bit of a tangent here... housing and community development is  one
    area of considerable success in recent years in programs that are
    descendents of war on poverty programs.  
    
    In many places moderate to low income housing is now done primarily
    through local economic development corporations, in partnership with
    private developers.  Small-scale, properly constructed housing is
    created, and then properly maintained. There is great emphasis on home
    ownership.  This is all in contrast to the massive,  poorly built
    housing projects of the 30's through the 60s.
    
    Even the poorest urban communities of, for example, Boston, where I
    live, have been immeasurably improved by this carefully crafted kind of
    community development.  It couldn't have been done with out government
    help. And it couldn't have succeeded without community involvement.
    
    I could cite similar successes in describing the health center model.
    
    Kit
     

    Ther exist a major problem with existing units built before 1978....
    Lead paint and aspestoce.(sp). There is a rodent hole into itself which
    I am not going to take because of it is theology unto itself.
    
    There is a movie many should rent sometime... Its called "Pacific
    Heights". And they watered down what really goes on sometimes as an
    owner trying to keep at arms reach the 'tenant from hell'! 

Don't pick on Mr. Rauh.  He spelled it asbestos he could.

    I dont have the spell corrector as JMartin has on his unit... Down
    sides of using a pc I guess and trying to work fast/er!
    

    
    Nor do I, but I use a dickshunary 8^)!
    

    >just chain yanking, george
    
    Hey! Bears say they love yha with a slap! Ask Bongo the Bear....:)

    
      To kick off a series of tough anti-drug proposals, President Clinton
     gave a strongly anti-drug speech in Miami.  He called for yet more
     money, more enforcement, more treatment, and more anti-drug
     legislation.  I've heard this from every presidential candidate
     of either party since I can't remember when - at least the last 5
     elections.  And it's a very popular position - Clinton was cheered,
     and cheered more, the tougher the language.
    
      bb

Wrong topic.

    
      Oops - too many wars.  I better polish my specs when reading
     Topic #2 !!
    
      bb