Conference back40::soapbox

    
    
    For some it is and for most it is not.  
    
    
    Mike

	Mike, could you explain that?

    
    >Discuss...   (if you dare)
    
    Well.... if he's particularly fast, and has a good pair of running
    shoes, then yes, I would say it is... seeing as he'd win the race each
    and every time... (Unless of course he was trying to outrune a 9mm
    slug)

	I forget what program and who but.....................


	There was this person, very public, who made the statement
that joung black males were the most dangerous individuals in murica.

	Caused quite a stirr I believe. What he was trying to say was
that joung black males commit a disproportionate amount of crimes, or
something like that. Didn't sit well.

	I do not clame to be educated on this subject, but my
impression is there is truth to this claim.

	What do others think ??.

SOLVIT::KRAWIECKI "Zebras should be seen and not her" 7 lines   7-DEC-1994 15:05



	Andy, your pname seems to suggest that zebras should not be women.

    
    
    I (still) believe that most people are good and that crosses all
    boundaries of race, religion, gender, sexual preference.  There are
    undoubtedly crimes that are racially motivated.  They get a lot of
    focus.  The black person stopping to help the white person or the white
    person stopping to help the black person, you never hear about that but
    it happens all the time.
    
    
    Mike

>>    Is race a factor in crime ? 

	sometimes.


	next?

	I would also say that there is a correlation between
discimination and crime, rather than race and crime. 

	Those races who are discriminated against are more
likely to be pushed to resort to crime than others.

    
    
    
    RE: .8  I don't buy it for a minute.

    
    maybe tweety meant to say that those who are discriminated against feel
    freer to commit crimes since they are discriminated against, after all.
    
    jeff

    
    Statisticians here will probably say yes.
    
    Since I don't think much of statistics as an, um, discipline, I can't
    say it matters much to me.
    
      bb

    
    MMercier gave me an article quoting studies that showed that when one
    compared crime rates in the USA (whites only) to crime rates of
    European countries, they were the same or better.  It was only when
    non-white criminals were factored in that the crime rates were so much
    higher.
    
    I didn't write it, I just read it.  But I couldn't tell you for the
    world where the article came from or what studies were cited. 
                                           

    
    For the computer challenged...
    
    $set term/width=132
    
     Enter notes
    
     open soapbox
    
     Find entry in question
    
     Read whole pname which could not fit in an 80 character screen
    
     Your welcome
    

	Mike, thanks for clarifying that. Do you have any idea(s) as to why
those crimes that are committed due to race are done?


Glen

    
    
    
    
    If I had to guess, I would have to say hate either based on what one
    was taught or by an experience that someone has gone through  which has
    impaired ones judgement to take people on an individual basis.
    
    
    Mike

SOLVIT::KRAWIECKI "Zebras should be seen and not he" 15 lines   7-DEC-1994 15:26
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


	Now you don't think they should be guys either! What gives andrew?    

    

| <<< Note 153.15 by GRANPA::MWANNEMACHER "Montanabound, oneof these days" >>>


| If I had to guess, I would have to say hate either based on what one was 
| taught or by an experience that someone has gone through which has impaired 
| ones judgement to take people on an individual basis.


	That might explain gang vs gang member(s), but what about other crimes
that are committed that don't have that factor into it? Maybe I'm wrong, but I
took the author in the basenote to mean race will determine that a crime will
be committed, and not that it's a racially motivated crime. If it's the latter,
then what you have said makes perfect sense. If it's the former, then I don't
think you've covered everything.


Glen

    For the computer challenged... (and for the cranial-rectal inverted)
    
    $set term/width=132
    
     Enter notes
    
     open soapbox
    
     Find entry in question
    
     Read whole pname which could not fit in an 80 character screen
    
     Your welcome
    

    re: 0
    
    With or without demographics?
    

| (and for the cranial-rectal inverted)

	andrew, are you talking about someone who has their head stuck up their
butt?

| Your welcome

	I don't recall anyone thanking you...

  <<< Note 153.13 by SOLVIT::KRAWIECKI "Zebras should be seen and not herd" >>>

    
    <----------  Thank you....
    

	Hey... your pname changed. good thing andrew. seems like you had too
much trouble with the other one.

    RE: .21
    
    >"goes to show ya don't ever know"
    
    Sorta applies to some people in here.... 
    

	Uh oh.... your old pname is back.... hope the trouble stays down to a
minimum.....

	Oh oh, is that another race related crime ???????	%^)

    i tried to bring this up with some folks at a poker game a couple of
    weeks ago. everyone there was a liberal democrat and happy to admit it.
    believe or not they are also my friends and neighbors. the discussion
    turned to gun control and murders. i remained quiet until they started
    bantering about about murders are way out of control and so is gun
    availability. i calmly informed them that the murder rate in the US is
    going down. they said they didn't believe so i got them the stats the
    following week. i followed my initial statement with one stating the
    the murder would be way down if not for the explosion of murder among
    young 16-24 year old males. particularly latino and black males. one
    guy immediately asked me to leave. "how dare you insist that race
    causes one to murder more?". which, of course is NOT what i said.
    basically he didn't want to discuss it. he felt i was racsist by doing
    so. its typical of people like him. strongly opioninated about things
    like guns and abortion. yet completely ignorant, indeed openly avoids,
    discussions on their cause.
    
    he also believes CBS nightly news is sufficient to be current on such
    issues.
    
    the brainwashing of america continues unabated.

	.22  ur welcome.
	
	.24  :-)

    
    haag, if you really want to make him mad, buy the book 'the bell curve'
    and give it to him for Christmas.
    
    jeff

    jeff
    
    i'll save the money. thanks anyway.

    >Is race a factor in crime ? 
    
    Yes.  Everyone knows that Blacks and Hispanics are more likely to
    commit a crime than White people.

    I believe, Blacks do a very high proportion of the crimes done.
    for example, Blacks make up 20% of the population and do 45% of the
    crime.  (these figures are picked out of the air)
    
    BUT,  the vast majority of black crime is black on black.  So race may
    be a factor here, where black criminals target black victims.
    
    

	Holy BS Batman, what planet am I on.

	Are some of you seriously suggesting if you are black
you are more likely to comit a crime ?????

	Don't any of you think that other factors are driving
non-whites to be more crime prone ?? Isn't the fact that blacks
have far less economic opportunity a large factor here ??

	Another classic entry by Buck!  I got quite the chuckle out of it!

    Best thing to do is to take a country in Africa that has a black
    majority, governed by blacks, and is very close to a democracy.  Then 
    see what the crime rate is there.  
    
    -Jack

    Make sure you study African Africans.

    
    
    RE:  .34
    
    > "Far less economic opportunity"
    
    You're kidding, right?!  And I suppose it's the "white
    mans" fault that it's this way, right?!
    
    Unreal!  Blame, blame, blame.... it's so easy to do! 

    
    <-----
    
    and all those gangmembers in L.A. are just society's "victims"...
    

        > "Far less economic opportunity"
    
    This is a fallacy.  The crime rate during the depression was extremely
    low.
    
    -Jack

    
    
    
      So Haag,......why don't you state some of the primary reasons
      why Blacks and Latinos 16-24 years old are killing each other
      as opposed to leaving your comments so open ended.
    
      Hey .0,.......you see,....when whites think crime they think black!
      They do,....I'm sorry,...I'm trying not to get caught up in 
      generalizations,....but it's all the result of "us" living in
      separate societies.
    
      Ed
    

    
    
      re.32
    
    
      Is that what you tell your children?
    
    
      Ed

    Ed:
    
    Sorry to dissappoint you but Jesse Jackson admitted he feels the same
    way.  He's more afraid of walking in a black neighborhood than a white
    one.  Does this make him a raccist??
    
    -Jack

Note 153.41 by NEMAIL::BULLOCK 
    
     >So Haag,......why don't you state some of the primary reasons
     >why Blacks and Latinos 16-24 years old are killing each other
     >as opposed to leaving your comments so open ended.
    
    you are kidding, right? i mean anyone that hasn't been living under a
    rock that last decade or two knows of the serious consequences suffered
    by all peoples, especially some latino and black communities, due to
    the destruction of the home's family values and rampant drug usage -
    particularly crack cocaine. there are lots of other causes. but those
    two are the real culprits.

    A white man is more likely to be assaulted (or was that killed) by his
    spouse than mugged (or was that killed) by a black person.
    
    Something I heard recently.

    
    makes sense when one considers that black persons constitute
    12% of the population. a whiteman is more likely to encounter
    his spouse than any black person, let alone one representing
    a threat. therefore placing him in closer proximity to that
    threat than to the threat from any black person.
    
    most saws like this fall down under under even casual scrutiny.
    

	I do not believe for a moment that the color of one's skin
	indicates the predilicition toward becoming a criminal.

	That said, we cannot ignore the statistics that minorities
	are very much overrepresented when it comes to criminal activity.

	Now some have suggested that  the lack of opportunity in minority
	communities is to blame, and there may be something to this.
	BUT it is certainly NOT the whole answer to the problem because
	the criminals are STILL only a small percentage of the minority
	population. If the only cause were environmental then why do 
	the majority of the people in these communities NOT become
	criminals?

	Others say that it is the breakdown of the family, but again this
	is just too simple an answer.

	The issue is complex and it DOES need to be studied. The problem
	is getting passed the "racist" slur when someone suggests that
	it should be looked at.

	The solution will very likely be complex as well. And very likely
	it will be expensive. But until we spend the time and resources
	to address the REAL causes of crime and criminal activity we have
	no hope of ever reducing the numbers.

Jim

    
    Why does everyone whine on about whites not being victimized by blacks
    as much as blacks by blacks when crime is discussed?
    
    Who cares what colour the victim is?  The point is the colour of the
    criminal if we're talking about crime being related to race.  Right?

    Haag-Man... Your "friend" wanted you to leave? Assumption (on my part)
    that he was branding you a racist? I've never met you, but I know
    you're not.
    
    If it wasn't his house, I would've asked permission from the host
    to bounce him out on his arse... and, I would've felt a great insult
    had been placed on me.
    
    Chip

    Re .34:
    
    > 	Are some of you seriously suggesting if you are black you are more
    > likely to comit a crime ?????
    > 
    > 	Don't any of you think that other factors are driving non-whites to
    > be more crime prone ?? Isn't the fact that blacks have far less
    > economic opportunity a large factor here ??
    
    How would your questions in the second paragraph answer the first
    question in the negative.  Sure, let's agree with what you suggest --
    let's even take it to the extreme:  We'll grant, for the sake of
    argument, that ALL crime committed by blacks is caused by economic
    opportunity or whatever other factors you name.
    
    That doesn't alter in any way the fact that blacks are more likely to
    commit crime.  The REASON for it doesn't alter the fact that IT OCCURS.
    
    You probably confused statements that blacks DO COMMIT more crime with
    the idea that blacks commit more crime BECAUSE they are black.  But
    nobody stated the latter, did they?
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

	RE .50

	I do believe the statement was made, or I misintrepreted,
that blacks comit more crimes beacuse they are black. I do not
disagree that blacks comit more crimes than whites. 

| <<< Note 153.36 by AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!" >>>



| Best thing to do is to take a country in Africa that has a black majority, 
| governed by blacks, and is very close to a democracy. Then see what the crime 
| rate is there.

	Jack, just what will this do? Will this really determine anything? 

| <<< Note 153.40 by AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!" >>>


| This is a fallacy.  The crime rate during the depression was extremely low.


	Jack, you left off that blacks knew their place then. Sometimes you
really amaze me. During the depression, what % of the TOTAL population was
doing a good job keeping their heads above water. Compare that to today. There
is one difference in your analogy. Look at the family situation from back then
and compare it to now. There is another difference. Too many differences Jack.
You're comparing apples and oranges, as usual.


Glen

	What color is good in this world? What color is bad? In the movies,
books, plays, black is evil, white is good. Just what color was that real bad
Monday? These are some examples that our own society has projected as being
bad. Considering the path blacks have had to take, thanks to us, it's pretty
easy to see that society had a big hand in it all. 100%? No, but a big hand.


Glen

SEAPIG::PERCIVAL

>>I do not believe for a moment that the color of one's skin
>>indicates the predilicition toward becoming a criminal.

 an admirable statement.

>>That said, we cannot ignore the statistics that minorities
>>are very much overrepresented when it comes to criminal activity.

 A seemingly undisputed fact.

>>The solution will very likely be complex as well. And very likely
>>it will be expensive. But until we spend the time and resources
>>to address the REAL causes of crime and criminal activity we have
>>no hope of ever reducing the numbers.

 Excactly. (careful though, you are starting to sound like a liberal)

 So the next time people see a line like

RUSURE::EDP
>>That doesn't alter in any way the fact that blacks are more likely to
>>commit crime.

 People will realize that the word "black" should really be, underpriviliged,
poor, undereducated, abused, just plain stupid... To just say blacks lumps
alot of people who have none of the REAL causes of crime in their background,
and leaves the impression that the overriding factor in their criminal
behaviour is the color of their skin, hair, and eyes, which is of course
ridiculous. This may seem PC to you, but to me it is the beginning of the end
of stereotyping, which is the beginning of the end of racism.

							Derek.
    

    In American cities, white neighborhoods are generally safer than black
    neighborhoods. Throughout history, men have reached greater heights in
    intellectual, aesthetic, and commercial achievements than have women.
    In general, jews are more intelligent, productive and creative than
    people of other religions, nationalities or races. Are thes the words
    of a racist, a chauvinist, a zionist zealot? They would be if such
    statements as these were directed toward or used in judgement of
    particular individuals. But the statements are made in reference to
    objective, statistical facts that are real. When placed in the proper
    context of being generalized statistics that do not characterize any
    particular individual, then they are validly applicable to generalized
    situations. If the data is accurate, then in-context inferences from
    those data are factual and must be considered in order to make honest
    evaluations and correct decisions. Consider, for example, the provable
    statistic that in all major U.S cities a significantly higher
    percentage of blacks than whites injure and murder people. That is a
    statistical fact regardless of the reasons or so-called social causes.
    But to apply that statistical fact to any individual would be out of
    context, immoral and UNJUST because such statistics can not be validly or
    honestly applied to any particular individual. Therefore, to
    automatically suspect a black individual of a crime, due to only the
    statistics or the fact that he is black, is racist and immoral. To
    avoid black neighborhoods, due to the statistics, is reasonable and not
    racist. To not hire a qualified women because of gender is immoral. To
    not hire or associate with a jew, because they were born a jew is
    immoral. The murderous, immoral act of racism will stop only with the
    complete and total protection of everyone's individual rights. When
    everyone's individual rights are protected blacks, whites, man, women,
    rich, poor, jew, palestianian, business person, laborer, everyone will be 
    will be protected and racism will stop.
    
    ...Tom

Note 153.49 by WMOIS::GIROUARD_C 
    
    >Haag-Man... Your "friend" wanted you to leave? Assumption (on my part)
    >that he was branding you a racist? I've never met you, but I know
    >you're not.
    
    why thank you. no, i don't believe i'm a rassist either. after all, i'm
    part of the most oppressed minority on the planet - bohemians.
    
    i will admit to a bit of baiting. i know my neighbors well. i also know
    their hot buttons. and the one who asked me to leave is a podium
    pounding crusader for racial equality, government funded abortions ON
    DEMAND, and hard core gun hater. the point i tried to make is that by
    ingoring race entirely would prevent us from finding and addressing the
    real problems of violent crime. for that, he thinks i am rassisst. so
    be it. he is in the vast minority in his views anyway.

    Twist on the word "black"...
    
    There is a great debate about the connotations these days. However,
    the politically correct handle of calling the negroid race black
    is relatively new. Past descripts were negro or colored.
    
    I (truely) wonder why the word black was eventually chosen as the
    the representative definition?
    
    Chip

    
    
        re.57
    
    
        When Whites committ violent crimes against other Whites,...do
        you ignore race?
    
    
        Ed
    

    Glen:
    
    I was referring to black on black crime when I brought up the
    depression. 
    
    Statistically, white on white crime in the 30's was lower than black on
    black crime in the 80's.  Two different eras but I believe people are
    people.
    
    I believe alot of it come from sociological conditioning.  My wifes
    grandfather came from Italy.  He owned a butcher shop in Revere during
    the depression.  Immigrants had a sense of oneness and unity, they came
    to a new world and supported each other.  
    
    Unfortunately, alot of blacks in urban America for the most part are
    disjointed.  Sixty percent of black children in Boston will be born
    this year in a broken home.  This is caused by two things...selfish
    fathers with no backbone or concept of taking care of family, and the
    positive myth brought forth by great society liberals that the
    government will take care of all problems, which you and I both know is
    a dismal failure.  
    
    Glen, there ARE jobs and opportunity out there.  I've said this in the
    past.  I started at $8.00 an hour in Hudson.  I worked 70 hour weeks
    for two years, the money stunk and I had to do it.  After two years, I
    looked in Digital for a "real" job.  Turned down month after month
    after month.  I finally came to MKO...didn't know what VMS was.  They
    took the time to train me and gave me a chance.  And guess what
    Glen...I'm white!  BUT...I had vision and I pressed forward, like my
    wifes grandfather did...like anybody can!  
    
    Crime is a learned art...and the motives can vary.  If you find a black
    culture in Africa similar to Americas, I would be interested on what
    the rate of black on black crime is there!  This would prove the
    fallacy that crime is committed because they are black.  I believe it
    is conditioned by environment and not hereditary!
    
    -Jack  

    Race is a genetic characteristic.  Therefore, the question of whether
    race and criminal behavior are related is also asking whether criminal
    behavior can be determined or influenced by genetics.
    
    So, is criminal behavior hereditary?

    I believe sin is hereditary but I believe criminal action as we define
    it is learned through role models and environment.
    
    -Jack

    I can't help but believe that the high crime rate among young black
    males is due to factors such as the destruction of the black family via
    welfare policy, absence of fathers and male role models (and
    discipline), lousy schools, proliferation of cheap guns, a
    subculture of gang-thinking, teenage identity crises, and various other
    factors thrown into the pot.
    
    I don't see skin pigmentation, per se, as being that big a factor.  

    Well, skin pigmentation did put them there in the sense that racism
    created the inequality which placed them in their current dilemma.
    
    Glenn

    .64
    
    this sort of move to "racism as explanation" might work (might) if
    we were talking about white on black crime -- but mostly 18-24
    year gunslinging black males are shooting at each other -- over things
    like sneakers, chewing gum, "dissin", radios, etc.

    Re: .65
    
    He explicitly spelled out the role of racism -- placing minorities in
    the social situations that lead to increased tendency to crime.

    But why are they doing that in the first place?

    It does work as an explanation. When somebody steals your shoes you're
    not going to analyze why this happened and then target the descendants
    of the people who are responsible for placing you in this demography.
    You're going to hunt down the person who stoled your shoes.


    Glenn

	Jack, while your story is impressive, how many people, companies, etc,
are willing to give even the $8.00/hour job to someone from the inner city? You
aren't making much sense Jack. 


Glen

    Re .55:
    
    >>That doesn't alter in any way the fact that blacks are more likely to
    >>commit crime.

    > People will realize that the word "black" should really be,
    > underpriviliged, poor, undereducated, abused, just plain stupid... To
    > just say blacks lumps alot of people who have none of the REAL causes
    > of crime in their background, . . .
    
    First, your implication that being black isn't the "REAL" cause of
    crime also implies that I, or somebody else, suggested it WAS a cause
    of crime.  That's not the case.  I don't see ANY response in this topic
    that suggests such a thing.
    
    Second, those things aren't "REAL" causes of crime either.  They may be
    correlated with crime, but that doesn't make them causes.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

>>    Jack, while your story is impressive, how many people, companies, etc,
>>    are willing to give even the $8.00/hour job to someone from the inner
>>    city?  You aren't making much sense Jack.
    
    Glen, I walked in the door the same day with another temp.  He was
    black and from Hyde Park.  He too was making the same amount I was as
    we came from the same temp agency...
    
    Nyaahhhhh!!!
    

    RUSURE::EDP
    
     Glad to see you missed my point. I did not say you said it was a
    factor. I said by defining the issue around race, you are 1) being
    unfair to others of the same race, and 2) not addressing a relevent
    issue when looking at the reason for crime.
    
     As for the reasons for crime. As long as race is not on the list, I'm
    willing to discuss it.

    .12 - I know I'm way behind here, but it was me, and the wall street
    journal reported that among whites, the US had the lowest crime rate of
    any industrialized nation.

>    A white man is more likely to be assaulted (or was that killed) by his
>    spouse than mugged (or was that killed) by a black person.
    
    Stupid Chelsea.  In my home, this would be very true.  If I go to
    downtown Atlanta, the odds shift dramatically.
    
    It depends on where you live - this is a classic "quote a statistic out
    of context".  You might as well say that crimes by blacks are nearly
    non-existant in Greenland.

| <<< Note 153.70 by AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!" >>>


| Glen, I walked in the door the same day with another temp.  He was
| black and from Hyde Park.  He too was making the same amount I was as
| we came from the same temp agency...

	Jack, since when is Hyde Park a bad place?

    Re .71:
    
    > Glad to see you missed my point.
    
    Sorry to see you missed mine.
    
    > I did not say you said it was a factor.
    
    I did not say you said I said it was.
    
    > I said by defining the issue around race, . . .
    
    No, you did not; you did not say anything about "defining" the issue
    around anything.
    
    > . . . you are 1) being unfair to others of the same race, . . .
    
    Nor did you say anything about the unfairness of it.
    
    > . . . and 2) not addressing a relevent issue when looking at the
    > reason for crime.
    
    What makes it not a relevant issue?  When a witness to a murder says a
    person with red hair committed the crime, it makes sense to track down
    a person with red hair.  That doesn't mean all people with red hair are
    suspects or that red hair caused the crime -- it's a clue, and it's
    useful to find the criminal.  Similarly, if it is a fact that criminals
    are grossly disproportionate by race, that's a clue.  It's not the
    cause, but it is useful to find the cause.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    Glen:
    
    I wouldn't want to live in Hyde Park.  I defy you to go to Hyde Park
    tonight and spend three hours in the center of it whistling, "Strolling 
    through the park one day".  You will be assaulted!
    
    -Jack

    Re: .73
    
    >If I go to downtown Atlanta, the odds shift dramatically.
    
    Prove it.  Show how one man going to downtown Atlanta shifts the odds
    dramatically.  Even if you got mugged ten times by black men, you
    wouldn't make a blip in the odds.  There are millions of white men,
    after all.

       
    
    
    
          Jack,....I live within a "stones throw" of Hyde Park,....
          ....tell me why Glen would be assaulted? Is it because
          he's White?
    
    
          Ed
    

    Guys...your going to think I'm full of it but this is the truth.  
    
    I got Hyde Park mixed up with Mattapan.  I'm not just saying this...I
    mean it.  But Ed, to answer the question, no, not because he is white
    although that can be reasonable in South Boston.  Alot of blacks don't
    go out after dark because of the violence in their neighborhoods.
    
    I already stated that crime is not hereditary, it is learned.  Please
    don't make anybody a victim here.
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 153.76 by AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!" >>>


| I wouldn't want to live in Hyde Park.  I defy you to go to Hyde Park tonight 
| and spend three hours in the center of it whistling, "Strolling through the 
| park one day".  You will be assaulted!

	I should have been more clear Jack. What was wrong with Hyde Park when
he joined?




Glen

	Jack, one more thing. You still didn't answer my question about how
many companies are willing to hire people from those areas. You did mention
one, but how many companies within the city actually do this?


Glen

    
    
    Glen, as a hiring manager in a previous life, I assure you that I never 
    considered an applicant's address an important part of deciding whether
    or not to hire him or her.

| <<< Note 153.80 by AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!" >>>


| But Ed, to answer the question, no, not because he is white although that can 
| be reasonable in South Boston.  

	Huh???? White boy with dark hair walking the streets of Southie? I
couldn't be safer! Well, that is unless I skip. :-)  If you are anything BUT
white, you have to take caution. Having a friend tell me someone who he let
cross the street stopped and spit on his windshield, on the side that his black
roomate was on helps me realize this. Playing basketball for 3 years at good ole
Southie High also helped me see that. 

| Alot of blacks don't go out after dark because of the violence in their 
| neighborhoods.

	NOW you're talking about Southie...


Glen

| <<< Note 153.83 by POWDML::LAUER "Little Chamber of Perdition" >>>



| Glen, as a hiring manager in a previous life, I assure you that I never
| considered an applicant's address an important part of deciding whether
| or not to hire him or her.


	Mz Debra, I'm talking about inner city business's hiring inner city
people. BZ had a drive going on in October to get companies to hire inner city
kids. Why would they need to go public with all of this if it were something
that was easy to do? The companies they got to do the hiring were out of the
lower end of the inner city life. 


Glen

    
    Hiring KIDS, that's the point, inner-city or not.  There's a big
    difference between hiring an ADULT and hiring a TEEN, whether they're from 
    Mattapan or Weston or somewhere in between.
    
    Teens can be difficult employees.  
    

    Digital and Stride Rite did it.  Eventually they did move out but it
    had nothing to do with inner city employees.
    
    -Jack

    
    
       re.80
    
       Jack,......actually,...I live in Mattapan.....:-),...which is a
       "stones throw" from Hyde Park. Maybe we can expand on this a
       little bit. My wife,...will not go at night,....she just dosen't
       feel safe,.......on the other hand a friend of ours (female) lives
       in Newton, Lower Mills,......and she NEVER goes out at night
       either! If we lived in Weston,.....my wife still wouldn't make
       any excursions at nightfall.
    
       Our children play with the kids in the neighborhood,...ride bikes
       etc.,...but we keep an eye on them,....and I've got to believe that
       White folks that live in the suburbs or exurbs,....KEEP AN EYE ON
       THEIR CHILDREN TOO! YES?? Because we all know that strangers,
       perverts and assholes come in all colors and nationalities. As for
       myself,...I go out,...I just don't care. That dosen't mean I'm
       crazy,....it just dosen't bother me.
    
       But what does bother me is the constant "bad press"!! It's like
       everyone that lives here is on AFDC,....does drugs,.....carries
       weapons and its a danger zone if you're White. If you (generic you)
       keep believing this,....it's gonna continue the alienation,....
       it's gonna continue the stereotypes,.......and the fear! The end
       results are extroadinary ignorance that's manifested in dumb
       ass racism.
    
    
       Ed
    
    .

    Okay Okay Ed...I apologize for adding to the bad press of Hyde Park and
    Mattapan.  Let's face it, you turn on Chet and Nat every night and 5
    out of the 7 nights one of the lead stories will be some sort of
    violence perpetrated somewhere within the Roxbury-Quincy-Mattapan
    region on the coast.  Whether it be propoganda or real...the fact is
    that it is happening and we in the Boston area have been spoon fed this
    stuff for years.  You simply don't hear about Charletown or Chelsea as
    much.  
    
    Also, comments made by the likes of Jesse Jackson do not help the cause
    either.  Stating things like he feels safer walking in a white
    neighborhood than a black one.  When you hear it from the liberal bent
    you have to consider that it might be true.  I am firmly convinced that
    Jesse Jackson's sole intent is to help keep the inner city
    impoverished.  Without poverty, he has no power base.
    
    -Jack

	Jack, how did Quincy get into this???? I NEVER hear about Quincy and
crime. Jack, you keep getting deeper and deeper in dog poo.... maybe you should
stop while you're behind...

    No....Quincy is a dump!

| <<< Note 153.91 by AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!" >>>


| No....Quincy is a dump!

	When was the last time you've been to Quincy? Jack, like all cities,
there will be an area or two that may be less than desireable to look at. But
it doesn't mean the whole city is a dump. I have a lot of friends that live in
Quincy. You do realize they have been rebuilding the city for quite some time
now, right? 

	But it doesn't explain why you say you hear Quincy on the tv all the
time. How about you explain that one..... or maybe you'll realize that you
should quit while you're behind...

MR. EDP
    
>>No, you did not; you did not say anything about "defining" the issue
>>around anything.

>>>To just say blacks lumps alot of people who have none of the REAL causes of
>>>crime in their background,

>>   Nor did you say anything about the unfairness of it.

>>>and leaves the impression that the overriding factor in their criminal
>>>behaviour is the coulor of their skin, hair, and eyes, which is of course
>>>ridiculous. 

    								Derek.

    
    
    
     Jack,.....you know what I find to be comical in this file,.....
     .......a number of 'boxers' will excoriate the media as liberal,
     inaccurate,...hyperbole,...etc.,....and yet when it comes to so
     called "inner city" America,....or Black folks or Hispanics,..
     .....all of a sudden it's the gospel!
    
    From reading many of these entries,.....I sense that many of the 
    White folks in this file,......have absolutely no contact at all
    with Blacks or Hispanics. Your schools are all white,....your
    churches are white,....your neighbors are white. If that's what
    you want,....THAT'S COOL WITH ME! THAT'S YOUR BUSINESS! I often
    wonder what you (generic you) tell your children.
    
    You see,....my children go to intergrated schools,...these schools
    are also private. I'm not tootin' my horn like it's some kind of
    big deal,....however,....they realize that the world's a big place,
    ...and it's right in their "backyard". They also realize that good
    and bad come in all hues,.....and that everyone brings "something
    to the table". But most of all,...as they get older and if they meet
    "your" kids,....they won't have culture shock,....and if your
    children have a "problem" with color,.....they'll know,....I mean
    they'll know quick, fast and in a hurry!
    
    Ed
    

    I honestly tried to read all the comments, but just couldn't force
    myself to read on.  It's true, racism is alive and well, deeply rooted
    in many boxer hearts.  Some actually believe the sterotypes that are 
    imposed on minorities, why, because of stats.  It's sad that their is 
    crime running rampant, and it sad a brother would kill a brother, period.
    It's sad that we fear what we don't understand.  If we are going to
    talk about crime, let's not forget the crime commited by "White Men."
    
    I forgot that's not crime, it's called... 
    
    The advancement of civilization...
    
    Protecting and advancing ones interest........
    
    The World's empires where built on every crime you can imagine, go
    figure.  So is depravity race related? No
    
    I guess criminal acts are the condition of ones heart.  Some will probably 
    derive from the statement "So that mean minorities don't have a heart", 
    It wouldn't suprise me one bit.
    
    
    

    >I honestly tried to read all the comments, but just couldn't force
    >myself to read on.  It's true, racism is alive and well, deeply rooted
    >in many boxer hearts.  Some actually believe the sterotypes that are 
    >imposed on minorities, why, because of stats.  It's sad that their is 
    >crime running rampant, and it sad a brother would kill a brother, period.
    >It's sad that we fear what we don't understand.  If we are going to
    >talk about crime, let's not forget the crime commited by "White Men."
    
    Sorry, but this is crap. Take a moral high ground and preen yourself
    from it. Have real courage and _name_ who you think is a racist,
    or STFU.
    
    Racism sucks. But so does preening.
    
    -b

| <<< Note 153.94 by NEMAIL::BULLOCK >>>


| Jack,.....you know what I find to be comical in this file,.....a number of 
| 'boxers' will excoriate the media as liberal, inaccurate,...hyperbole,...etc
| and yet when it comes to so called "inner city" America,....or Black folks or 
| Hispanics,.......all of a sudden it's the gospel!

	Ed, you really have hit the nail on the head. I really hope Jack can
explain it as pertaining to him. I know he is one who screams about the media,
and at times he will use it as his proof. It has been brought up before, in the
old box, but I don't remember what his answer was.


Glen

    
    
    RE:  .89
    
    When's the last time you've been to Quincy?!  Yeah, it has its
    bad parts...but I can't remember the last time I've heard
    Chet and Nat mention Quincy.  Quincy has a new police
    dept. which looks pretty impressive, they've done a lot to
    the Square....
    
    I'm from Quincy and I have quite a few relatives that still
    live there....it's a nice little city not to mention they've
    got one of the best programs going for Domestic Abuse/Violence
    cases.
    
    I would hardly compare Quincy to the likes of Mattapan or 
    parts of Roxbury.....
    
    Just my .02$

    
    
    
       YOU SEE!!!!!
    
    
       "the likes of Mattapan or Roxbury".
    
    
       Ed
    

	race snarf!

    
    
    RE:  .99
    
    The first time I was on my way to Milton Hospital to visit
    my grandfather I got lost and ended up in Mattapan...wouldn't
    recommend it to anyone.  It was run down, dark  - I just 
    didn't get a warm and fuzzy kinda feeling being there. But
    that was just the part of Mattapan that I saw..... 
    
    My Aunt and Uncle live in West Roxbury and it's very nice.
    
    Every city has its good and bad...

    Markey,
    
    Racism sucks but no one wants to talk about the Historical racism, why? 
    This is not about moral preening and if you read past the first
    paragraph you would see that.  If you did I'll just except your view on
    it.  Just curious, what exactly did you find to be " Moral preening Crap."
    
    
    Kimball

    Hey Ed, 
    
    I see what you mean.

    Then Glen, you also know that the brunt of my ideologies on politics
    and the like come from CSPAN and David Brudnoy as my primary inlets of
    information.  I am a proponent of talk radio and the like because it
    gives the individual a right to state their POV.  CSPAN is one of those
    and Brudnoy is another.  Brudnoy is a proponent of "EQUALITY FOR ALL",
    But Glen, you have voiced that you don't care for him...because
    equality to you must precipitate government gerrymandering in
    society...society is too stupid to evolve on its own.  I pay little
    attention to the bitheads on channel 5 because their form of reporting
    is not objective.  HOWEVER, if what you say is true, then the Maxine
    Waters...The Sharptons, the Jesse Jacksons of the world are just as
    bad.  Furthermore, the pendulum definitely swings both ways.  Racism is
    rampant in all cultures here in the US.  Jackson, Sharpton, all those
    people...they're racists too!!
    
    Am I a racist?  Well, I have a pool of acquaintances that are diverse.  
    I don't feel in my heart any different toward one person over another.  
    If my daughter married an African American, the cultural diversity she
    may face in attitude, etc. might concern me but she'd be old enough to
    make her own decision.   My discrimination of people is solely
    dependent on the content of their integrity and character.
    
    By the way, I picked Quincy arbitrarily.  I consider that the last city
    within the Boston region before going into the south shore towns like
    Hull, Scituate, etc.
    
>>    | Jack,.....you know what I find to be comical in this file,.....a
>>    number of
>>    | 'boxers' will excoriate the media as liberal,
>>    inaccurate,...hyperbole,...etc
>>    | and yet when it comes to so called "inner city" America,....or Black
>>    folks or
>>    | Hispanics,.......all of a sudden it's the gospel!
    
    Listen Ed, I mentioned before that crime isn't inherited...it is
    learned.  I believe moms who have illigite kids will be more apt to go
    on welfare....children of 1 parent families are more apt to drop out of
    school...adults who use drugs are more apt to have deformed
    babies...and yes, unfortunately, minority children in Boston are more
    apt to be born in a broken home.  Why does channel 5 pick on Southie? 
    I don't know...the facts are the facts, parts of Southie are crime
    ridden areas.  Black on black crime is high...I see benefit in Facts
    Facts Facts...like in...Fact: young boy gets killed in crossfire in
    Dorchester.  Fact...baby falls out of window in crackhouse...fact...
    Shooting takes place at funeral in Roxbury.  These are facts that are 
    over reported perhaps...yet the problem still exists.  The shooting in
    Franklin, Ma. a few weeks ago is big news because...you guessed it,
    shootings never happen in Franklin.  War zones are created by
    environment.  Bosnia is just about all white...I rest my case.
    
    -Jack

    >Jack,.....you know what I find to be comical in this file,.....
    >.......a number of 'boxers' will excoriate the media as liberal,
    >inaccurate,...hyperbole,...etc.,....and yet when it comes to so
    >called "inner city" America,....or Black folks or Hispanics,..
    >.....all of a sudden it's the gospel!
    
    Studies, which produce statistics, are generally not done by
    media organizations: they are done by academics. The media
    reports the academics' findings. It's a wonder they do too,
    considering the fact that the data from some of the studies
    (not only those dealing with crime and race) does _not_
    support what the media otherwise spews as "truth".
    
    I don't think many (if any) 'boxers believe that there is a
    _direct_ correlation between color of skin and crime. But
    studies imply that there may be an indirect correlation;
    in fact, several levels of indirection are probably involved.
    For example, blacks comprise a predominantly urban population.
    Urban populations tend to overcrowding and poverty. These
    factors can effect crime...
    
    >You see,....my children go to intergrated schools,...these schools
    >are also private. I'm not tootin' my horn like it's some kind of
    >big deal,....however,....they realize that the world's a big place,
    >...and it's right in their "backyard". They also realize that good
    >and bad come in all hues,.....and that everyone brings "something
    >to the table". But most of all,...as they get older and if they meet
    >"your" kids,....they won't have culture shock,....and if your
    >children have a "problem" with color,.....they'll know,....I mean
    >they'll know quick, fast and in a hurry!
    
    I agree with the basic premise here, with a cautionary note. The
    school can only go so far in teaching a kid right from wrong. If
    a kid is taught at home that xxxxx people (plug in the race of
    your choice) are bad, then that kid will most likely grow up believing
    that xxxxx people are bad. On the other hand, if a child is taught
    at home to respect people... _all_ people, then it really doesn't
    matter if the school is integrated or not...
    
    -b

    
    Jack, are you sure you mean Southie?  Southie is like 99.9% white and
    quite safe for white people, although I have heard that it's not quite
    as safe for people of colour.  I thought you were referring to 
    predominantly black areas in your note?
                  

    Damn...I'm sorry.  I am referring to Roxbury/parts of
    Dorchester/Jamaica Plain/Roslindale/Mattapan areas.

    >Racism sucks but no one wants to talk about the Historical racism, why? 
    >This is not about moral preening and if you read past the first
    >paragraph you would see that.  If you did I'll just except your view on
    >it.  Just curious, what exactly did you find to be " Moral preening Crap."
    
    Exactly the part I picked out and posted along with my response.
    
    Racism is an "easy" issue... as I said. Just take a moral high
    ground and rather amorphously point to everyone else, in the
    vaguest terms, and paint them a racist. It doesn't work that
    way. For example, if you're at a restaurant and refuse to sit
    at a table next to (pick whatever), you probably are a racist.
    If you're one race and nervous about walking in a neighborhood
    predominated by another race... are you a racist? No... you may
    have unnecessary fear, but all in all you're not inclined to
    hate or otherwise oppress another race... so you're probably
    not a racist.
    
    What I see happening here is that anyone who argues that there
    are statistical correlations between race and any other random
    factor is someone who's racism cuts to the very heart of their
    being. BS. Either refute the statistics, show _exactly_ where
    someone is being racist, or as I said, STFU.
    
    -b

| <<< Note 153.104 by AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!" >>>

| Then Glen, you also know that the brunt of my ideologies on politics and the 
| like come from CSPAN and David Brudnoy as my primary inlets of information.  

	Jack, you still are good for amazing me. You stated where you came to
this conclusion, via Chet & Natalie. Am I supposed to then turn around and say
you got it from other areas when you already told us where you got it? Give me
a break Jack. If you got it from other areas as well, don't state I got it from
X, when it was X & Y. (X & Y don't mean Chet & Natalie) 

	Now, where did you get the info about Quincy, and what info did you
actually get that made you think Quincy is a high crime, high race crime area?

| But Glen, you have voiced that you don't care for him...because equality to 
| you must precipitate government gerrymandering in society...society is too 
| stupid to evolve on its own.  

	Jack, did you hear my thoughts from Chet and Natalie too? Me thinks you
had better go read my notes again. 

| I pay little attention to the bitheads on channel 5 because their form of 
| reporting is not objective.  

	Ahhhhh.... but you said you got this stuff from Chet & Natalie... who
you now say aren't objective. What a vicious confusing circle you lead Jack.

| HOWEVER, if what you say is true, then the Maxine Waters...The Sharptons, the 
| Jesse Jacksons of the world are just as bad.  

	Huh? Could you explain that please? As to why they are?

| By the way, I picked Quincy arbitrarily.  

	I knew you didn't pick it because you put any thought into it. :-)

| Why does channel 5 pick on Southie?

	Jack, what do you consider to be Southie? If you mean South Boston,
which is the true meaning of Southie, they don't have very many reports on the
residents. 


Glen

    Current issue of National Review contains a symposium on Herrnstein and
    Murray's The Bell Curve, which books discusses IQ, success, crime, etc.

    Glen:
    
    Does Hymie town ring a bell?

| <<< Note 153.111 by AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!" >>>


| Does Hymie town ring a bell?


	Uhhh... no Jack, it doesn't. Is this some slang word used years ago to
describe Quincy?

	After you answer that, can you answer my last reply please?


Glen

    
    Pssst - Jesse Jackson got in trouble running for Prexy by calling
    the Big Pickle "hymietown" - indicating his was a non-Jewish
    "rainbow".
    
      bb

    Glen:
    
    Okay Glen, I lumped Quincy in there with the neighboring war zone.  My
    fault.
    
    What bb said!!  The black leadership is full of racists and bigots.
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 153.114 by AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!" >>>


| Okay Glen, I lumped Quincy in there with the neighboring war zone.  My fault.

	Jack, you see, I'm not so sure you just lumped it in there or if you
really had it in your mind that it was. I ask because you kept giving all these
examples of how you heard about it. Started with Chet & Nat, and ended up with
Brudnoy and such. I guess what I am getting at is the same thing I was doing
with Haag earlier. To talk because you know something is <insert the way it is>
and not just say words that clearly have no meaning. In other words, don't talk
out of your butt! :-)  If it were something you honestly believed to be true,
that would be one thing, but if it isn't, why say it?


Glen

    
    I biked in Quincy in November.  Liked the Adams stuff.
    
    But I can see how you could call it a dumpling.  Matter of
    standards.  Not in a league with, say, Somerville.
    
      :-)  bb
    

    Glen:
    
    Example:  New York City is loaded with hoodlums and is the vilest scum 
              of the world.
    
    Reality:  Staten Island is a beautiful, wealthy part of New York.  
              Manhattan is rich in commerce and culture.  
    
    Yes Glen, it's a stigma thing.  I myself lump Quincy in with the rest
    of that area because it is urban, it is part of that busy south part of
    the city.   I speak in generalizations sometimes but it doesn't mean
    I'm speaking out of my butt.  
    
    Bottom line is this.  All sections south of Boston I mentioned are not
    the most desirable.  It's too bad it is this way but it doesn't
    alleviate the fact that it is crime ridden.  Black on black crime is
    the worst.  So what is to be done about it?  Well, we know government
    has only made things worse.  Therefore, I believe it is the
    responsibility of the local church to see this as a ministry.
    
    -Jack

>    >If I go to downtown Atlanta, the odds shift dramatically.
>
>    Prove it.  Show how one man going to downtown Atlanta shifts the odds
>    dramatically.  Even if you got mugged ten times by black men, you
>    wouldn't make a blip in the odds.  There are millions of white men,
>    after all.
    
    I will prove it to you, Chelsea, but it requires a thought experiment.
    
    First off, no black people live in my home.  If I get assaulted there,
    it's really likely to be by my wife or kids.
    
    Second, none of my family live in downtown Atlanta, but the population
    is predominantly black.  If I get assauted there, it's very likely to
    be someone who is not my family, and also quite likely to be a black
    criminal.
    
    Therefore, if I spend most of my time at home, an assault would likely
    come from my family.
    
    If I spend a lot of time in downtown Atlanta, the odds change.
    
    Why is this difficult?

    Re: .118
    
    >If I spend a lot of time in downtown Atlanta, the odds change.
    
    If I had said, "The odds that Mr. Ciarochi will be mugged by a black
    man are lower than the odds that Mr. Ciarochi will get assaulted by his
    spouse," then you would have proved something.  But I didn't.
    
    White men _are_ mugged by black men -- and the odds are still better
    that a white man will get assaulted by his spouse.
    
    As I said, there are millions of white men.  If 2% are mugged by black
    men and 5% are assaulted by spouses, then statistically and
    probabilistically speaking, it really doesn't make any difference what
    happens to one individual.

| <<< Note 153.117 by AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!" >>>


| Example: New York City is loaded with hoodlums and is the vilest scum of the 
| world.

	Jack, that's being simplistic, isn't it? I think the countries that
have terrorism are far worse for the vilest scum of the world. :-)

| I speak in generalizations sometimes but it doesn't mean I'm speaking out of 
| my butt.

	Yes Jack, it does mean JUST THAT! Is it a generalization to say
Christians are hateful people? Would I be talking out of my butt if I went
around saying that? You bet ya! In this case you lump Quincy into a group, a
couple of weeks ago you lumped me in a group of people who you feel think that
certain people of the Bible are homophobic, or that I think certain people are 
homophobic if they believe the Bible is true. You generalize all the freakin
time. If you put some thought into what you say sometimes, you wouldn't get
your words thrown back at you nearly as often. If you say something, and you
make it sound like it's a fact, know that you haven't generalized beforehand.
If you know you do it now, then think about it in the future.

| Bottom line is this. All sections south of Boston I mentioned are not the most
| desirable. 

	I could be wrong, but I think a lot of people have mentioned to you
that this is not the case.

| It's too bad it is this way but it doesn't alleviate the fact that it is crime
| ridden. Black on black crime is the worst. So what is to be done about it? 
| Well, we know government has only made things worse. Therefore, I believe it 
| is the responsibility of the local church to see this as a ministry.

	OK Jack, will the local church be taking care of any funding that is
needed? Oh... you need the government for that. When gangs run through the
streets shooting people, will the people call on the church to go out and
aprehend these killers, or will the local government have to step in? The
government as a whole has problems when it comes to these areas. The people of
the inner cities have problems when it comes to this area. Together, they can
make things work. Do I see the church playing a part in all this? For some
areas, yeah, I do see them. I couldn't say all areas, but I would say most
would have the church involved in some fashion. But it's going to take a full
effort of everyone if this is going to work.



Glen

    Daggnabbit, It took me a whole week to find my way back to Soapboxland.
    Did you miss me?  Old Soapbox fart's response: NO!
    
    Well I missed you, all of you wonderful box people.  Yes haag that
    includes you. :-)
    
    Looks like the conversation pretty much died, but I'm going to add my 
    3 cents anyway.  Why? Because it's where I left off, daggnabbit.
    
    re. 108/Markey
    
    >Racism is an easy issue as I said just take a moral high ground and
    >rather amorphously point to everyone else, in the vaguest terms, and
    >paint them a racist.
    
    From this and your earlier statement, you pretty much said that I took
    the "High and Mighty" stance, and that it was pointless.  Pointless in
    the sense that my comment was amorphous <heeh heeh>, and vague. 
    What you called moral preening.
    
    Question is "Are your sense working overtime?  or Did you just miss my 
    point.  I'm sorry, I forgot i didn't make one. :-)
     
    >(Paraphased) If you refuse to sit next to someone, because of thier
    >race.  Your probably a racist.
    
    Probably????  
    
    >(paraphrased with a twist) If your nervous about walking through a
    >neighborhood, whose race is predominately different from your own, 
    >Are you a racist?
    
    Yes, if your nervousness is based on negative assumptions, about a race
    of people.  Last I checked, fear and/or hatred is fertile ground for 
    prejudice of every kind.  
    
    No, if it's a bad neighborhood.  It's would be wise of you to watch
    your step.
    
    >What I see happening [Senses working overtime :-)] is that anyone who
    >argues that there are statistical correlations between race and any
    >other Random (Random?) factor is someone who's racism cut's to the
    >very heart of thier being.
    
    If someone believes that these statistics and random factor suggests
    that racism and crime correlate, There either stupid or Racist.
    Pick one if you like, but it's my hope that your neither.
    
    There are degrees of emotional states, so it could be said that there
    are degrees of intensity, when it comes to racism.  Make no mistakes
    about it, your either racist or not.  No such thing as allittle
    pregnant, no such thing as allittle racist.  It may not cut to the core
    of who you are, but if it's there, it's there, period.  
    
    Question:
    If you found that some of your views are racist, would change your
    mind?  This will determine if your racist or not.
    
    >B.S  Either refute the statistics or show _exactly_where someone is
    >being racist, or as I said, STBU
    
    
    Since I don't know what STBU means, I can't help you in that area.  I'll do
    my best to fill the rest of the order.  
    
    I will not argue with the statistics for the following reason:
    
    1. I'm not sure of thier accuracy.
    
    2. They are statistics based on points in time, unlike history.
    
    3. The statistics may be fact, but that facts are not synonomous with 
       with truth.  
    
    The implication that race and crime is related, is offensive, period.  
    Remeber what I mention about people not wanting too look at history.
    <smile>  Let's talk about historical criminals.
    
    Answer this question, What race of people are responsible for
    plundering, raping, and subjugating other races and thier lands.
    What color was thier skin?  What are the statitistics for the crime and
    race relationship throughout history.  Do I need to say it, no.  Is it
    proof that the criminal mind and heart lives in a specific race, No.
    Some would simply call it the advancement of civilization.
    
    Just to let you Know:
    
    I do not support the "White man is the Devil theory"
    
    That theory is garbage, and so is the "Race and Crime correlation
    thoery"
    
    All races of people have been responsible for criminal acts,
    to varying degree's through history,  I choose to see it as a matter of
    the heart.  What's in your heart comes out in your actions, and this
    fact has no racial bounderies.   
    
    I saw a T-shirt that said "Yes, I am a Afro-American and No, I am not 
    a criminal.  
    
    
    it's sad that a t-shirt like this exists.
    
    Call it amorphous and vague if you want. 
    
    
    Peace.