Conference back40::soapbox

    this...

    I kinda like 'em.  They're not stodgy, which is a major plus.  They
    have an energetic, aggressive attitude, which is the right idea.  And
    the music is annoying enough to get your attention, but not so annoying
    that you want to smash your TV (unless we start running longer spots).

	Big waist of money. I like the notion of trying to get
name recognition instead of showing specific products. These
adds told me DEC is a group of 60's hippies letting their hair
down.

	I can't believe some add agency got paid big bucks for this.....

    They get the MadMike seal of approval.
    
    Got my attention right quick... was getting ready to make a run to the
    fridge when I saw the first one and I was saying "Far out... HOLY
    COW!  It's a DIGITAL commercial!"  
    
    It beats the heck out of those stupid piano adds.

    Catchy tune, but certainly won't help anyone unfamiliar with Digital to
    look into the company, IMO.  

    
    Not great, but it's a start.  Must continue using broadcast media !
    
     bb

    I perfered the original plan of 'Going My Way' by Lenney Kravitz. (sp)
    But what am I to say, sides an old 60's dude...:) The music sounded
    like Lenney, but really woundered who done it. Anyone got an answer to
    this?
    
    Over all, great start. Stealth marketing has gotta come to an end if we
    are going to be around... We are a house hold name in some segments of
    the market. Not in others and thats were we are getting our tushy
    kicked! So, (toasting a cup of coffee to the screen) 'here's to it
    all!!

    ...infact I went out and bought the Lenney tape! The tapes OK. Going my
    way' is good. The rest of the tape is balards and slow. I thought I was
    going to have some good workout music!

    i don't pay any attention to commercials. dec's or anyone else's for
    that matter. the only commercial i remember seeing all weekend was for
    a local rock 'n roll station - KQRS 92.5. now THEY have some slick
    marketeers.

I liked the kinda grungy, rough-around-the-edges look and sound.
Completely the opposite of what I'd expect someone to come up
with for Mother DEC.

Got a charge outta that "Digital 15, Grim Reaper 0" shot, too.

joanne

P.S.	Now we gotta capitalize on the Pentium-can't-add news.

    "Pentium doesn't add up... Go with Alpha!"
    
    Seriously, the Jaguar 64-bits-do-the-math campaign can't hurt.
    It's weird that the video-game market is turning toward 64-bit CPUs
    while the workstation market doesn't seem to be...

re .12:

We're selling peecees with Pentia.

    Actually, it can't divide... in rare circumstances. But it does run
    thousands of software packages off-the-shelf... flawlessly. At
    performance levels an emulated environment can never touch...
    
    -b

	I loved the commercial from Apple I saw this weekend of
a father sitting at an IBM clone PC and offering to run his son's
CD with dinosaurs. He goes thru all the trials of making it work
when finally his sons says he's going to his friends house where
they have a MAC.

	I loved it.............%^)

    I like the roller coaster footage!

	How many of us would have watched the ads if we weren't Digital
employees?


Glen

	Good point, I would have thought of it as another "NIKE"
commercial and ignored it.

Re: <<< Note 108.18 by BIGQ::SILVA "Memories....." >>>

>>	How many of us would have watched the ads if we weren't Digital
>>employees?

The first one cought my eye, and it wasn't until the end that it said it was a
Digital ad, so I guess I would have watched them.

However, football has never held my interest (I'm a football widower) so I was
only in the room for the first one...

                         Roak

    they coulda done better but at least it is something on national media
    and that's goodness for a change of pace...
    
    wonder how many need to be tfso'd to pay for the new ads though...

    
    What's it like ? What happens ? 
    Anyone care to give a summary ?
    
    Heiko
    

    
    
     In general I like the new ads but I was wondering about the color of
    the digital logo!!! We spent all those bucks changing the color to
    "establish" a new corporate identity!!! Then they use a black logo.
    Maybe this should go in the wondering note.
    
    -mike
    
    
    

    So these are "image builder" ads... Image Builder ads always leave me
    wondering about the point. AT&T does it. Dow Chemical does it. Dupont
    does it. GE does it... so I guess Digital has to do it.
    
    If I were to guess, the point of these commercials is simply to make
    Digital a recognized name in computers... so, who is buying computers
    in any appreciable quantity that doesn't know the name Digital? (Or how
    many people are buying corporate phone systems that don't know who AT&T
    is?)
    
    Are we trying to get the people who browse Computer Shopper to consider
    Digital as a PC source? If yes, then how do these ads help sell Alpha
    iron? Is there anybody out there who would consider buying an Alhpa
    workstation or server that doesn't know who Digital is? Or is Digital
    really trying to be a PC company and all this stuff about alhpa is just
    for the geeks?
    
    It seems to me that Digital constantly bitches about not getting its
    message across, but when given the chance to get its message across
    degrades into content-free feel good BS. I don't blame the advertising
    agency though... I blame the top management of Digital for not knowing
    (or at least not deciding) what business Digital is in.
    
    The ads, in my opinion, are nonsense.
    
    -b

    They could be going for the high-end PC market.  The target audience is
    computer professionals age 25-34.  These would not be the managerial
    types, for the most part, but the techies.

    i couldn't believe we actually PAID somebody for those ads.  total
    
          ####   #  ###########            ##        ###########       
      ####    ####    ####     ###         ###         ####     ###    
     ###        ##    ####      ###       #####        ####      ###   
    ####         #    ####      ###       # ###        ####      ###   
    ####              ####     ###       #   ###       ####     ###    
    ####              #########          #   ###       #########       
    ####              ####   ###        #########      ####            
    ####              ####    ###       #    ####      ####            
     ###        ##    ####    ####     #      ####     ####            
      ###     ##      ####    ####     #      ####     ####            
         #####      ########   ##### #####   ####### ########          

    This file is FREEWARE.  Use and distribute it far and wide.  Design
    Copyright (c) 1993 by Northern Spy Software.
    

    
    Terry Shannon (aka Charly Matco I) liked them.
    
    								-mr. bill

    reply 108.3
    
    A big waist of money?  Well we got over 3500 calls yesterday at PC-By-DEC
    and a lot of those calls turned into big pc deals.   Those ads helped
    my 16 million dollar quarterly budget so I don't see how they could
    have been a big waist of money?
    
	Mindy

    Anent .27: WHile you're here, mr. bill, I didn't understand your
    comment in DIGITAL about floating-point errors in Digital systems.
    Did we fix the problem?  Did we publicize it?  What was the story?

    
    
    i missed 'em...forgot all about them being on...
    
    
    

I agree with a few previous replies.

It's a start!

    
    
    Good to hear, Mindy.
    
    
    What strikes me as quite strange is that here we are, employees of a
    multi-billion $ company, getting fired up over seeing ads for our
    company and products on the tube.  :')
    
    
    
    Mike

    I just finish reading all the rest of notes and I am really shocked and
    disappointed!  CRAP, NONSENSE, A WAIST...ETC... Come on everyone this
    great!  Instead of everyone being so negative we should be excited.  
    
    Digital is finally going to be a major player in the PC industry and it
    is about time!
    
    Mindy
    

    .34
    
    i'd feel happier if our ads made us look like a computer company
    instead of jackson pollock's impression of hip hop.
    
    i admit they're different fram all the other computer ads i see out
    there - maybe there's a reason for that, like the other companies
    (apple, ibm, intel, etc.) have a little experience in teevee
    advertising, hmmm?

    re: Note 108.28 by AIMHI::SEIFERT
                   
    That's good to hear.  I wonder how many of the callers where influenced
    by the ads on TV? 
    
    Imagine if we were able to get a 3 hour commercial (30 times a year) for 
    a reasonable price how often your phone would ring.  Especially since
    it's a known, quantifyable fact how brand loyal NASCAR racing fans
    are.  (here comes Dr.Dan)
                   

    Re: .35
    
    >i admit they're different fram all the other computer ads
    
    Microsoft was running ads during the same game that were in the
    ballpark.  Weirder than ours, but with a quieter soundtrack.

    FPA's are incredibly complex.  Finding problems in them even more so.
    Diagnostics that pass an "FPA" can be quite wrong.
    
    Mostly I have deep empathy with the internet dweeb who found the problem.
    In my story, diagnostics were improved so that the failure I stumbled
    across could be more easily detected in the future.  Also have lots of
    empathy for all those folks solving numerical problems with lots of FPA
    on Pentiums.  Ouch.
    
    
    But don't think for a moment that Digital has never had such nasty
    problems.  We certainly have.  One post to comp.arch related the
    story of the DECstation 5000 Model 240 FPA.
    
    
    Question for you.  A customer buys a Digital Pentium PC.  They have
    also purchased a warranty, from Digital.  Does it get fixed, or not?
    Who fixes it?
    
    								-mr. bill

    .37
    
    > Microsoft was running ads...
    
    shows how much attention i pay to teevee.  i had it on for the sole
    purpose of seeing our ads.

    .38
    
        <<< HUMANE::DISK$CONFERENCES:[NOTES$LIBRARY]MACINTOSH.NOTE;4 >>>
                         -< Apple Macintosh Volume II >-
================================================================================
Note 674.0  A bug the PowerPC does not have...(?) (Pentium chips err  No replies
TAVDAC::DORON "Doing my BEST !!!"                    43 lines  27-NOV-1994 02:07
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Over the past few weeks there have been reports in the news and on Internet
that the Pentium chip has a situation where you can get mistakes made with
the floating point calculations. It seems that this is a real problem.
Intel's current position is that they will not be replacing the existing
Pentium chips becuase the error happens so rarely. Intel has shipped over
2M Pentium chips with this problem and current indications are they will
continue to ship their existing supply until they get a fixed chip.

To find out if your Pentium chip has the problem (and almost all do) all
you need to do is the following calculation using a program like the
Calculator program that come with windows. Type the following:

        4195835
        /
        3145727
        *
        3145727
        =
        press the  +/- button
        +
        4195835

        The answer should be 0. However you will likely get 256.
        On 386 and 486 systems you will get 0.

I tried this on my system and got the result of 256!

If people are using these chips in floating point applications where they
care about the results they need to check the results on a different
system, say an Alpha AXP, to make sure they are getting the right numbers.

Please share this with people who maybe considering using Pentium chips in
important applications.

By the way, Intel is saying that if you convince them you are really using
the Pentium chips in a floating point application and it is important they
will get you a chip which has the correct floating point processor on it.
It is their decision to make.

I would guess that over the next few weeks there will be more discussion in
the Internet and trade magazines on this problem and Intel's position.

John Giudice

    
    well INTC is up a point and has been doing nicely all during
    this FDIV brouhaha.
    
    

>>By the way, Intel is saying that if you convince them you are really using
>>the Pentium chips in a floating point application and it is important they
>>will get you a chip which has the correct floating point processor on it.
>>It is their decision to make.

	suppose they'll honor this if you're planning to sell your
	equipment to someone to whom it'll be important?  hoho.

    
    One sure result, a number of papers written by MS and PHD candidates
    about integer methods for "floating point" work.
    
    A few years ago, one Cornell researcher, dismayed by the difficulty
    in writing a portable solid modeller (the epsilons were usually platform
    dependent) wrote an integer space solid modeller.
    
    								-mr. bill

    108.36
    
    Before the tv ads it was dead up here.  Everyone of my Fortune 1000
    customers mentioned the ads last weekend.  

    108.38
    
    Standard warranty: 3 yrs.
    1 year on site for parts and labor
    2-3 return to local service center
    
    additional $150 per pc for 2&3 on site and parts/labor
    
    Mindy
    

/*
    
    And for an amusing case posted to comp.sys.intel that works just fine
    thanks on SPARC and Pentium, but will give eventually give you the
    right answer for all the wrong reasons after a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG
    time on VAX/VMS unless you know what you are doing.  (But you are at
    least warned.)
    
    Again, when are two floating point numbers equal?
    
*/
#include <stdio.h>
#include <math.h>

#define MAXLOOP 100000000L

/*********************************************************

         Newton's method to solve the equation
         x^2-1 = 0. The positive root is 1.0
    This is the result on SPARC-workstation.
    
    0       4.111728431355000878966166055761
    1       2.177467577462565362367286070366
    2       1.318358332938116328492128559446
    3       1.038438725503885384782165601791
    4       1.000711421667005884827972295170
    5       1.000000252880489437501410066034
    6       1.000000000000031974423109204508
    7       1.000000000000000000000000000000
    
    loop number = 8
    root is     = 1.000000000000000000000000000000
    
**********************************************************/
main()
{
        long i;
        double x, y;

        x = 0.123456789;
        for (i=0; ; i++) {
                y = (x+1/x)/2.0;

                if (fabs(y-x) < 10e-100 || i > MAXLOOP)
                        break;
                x = y;
                printf ("%d     %4.30lf\n", i, x);
        }

        printf ("\n");
        printf ("loop number = %ld\n", i);
        printf ("root is     = %4.30lf\n", x);
}

>    Again, when are two floating point numbers equal?

Well, at least in this program, they are considered equal if they
are within 0.0<97 zeroes>01 of each other.

/john

    .46
    
    works fine on a mips ultrix box.  8 iterations.

   re: /john, who is always right...         
    
|>    Again, when are two floating point numbers equal?
|
|Well, at least in this program, they are considered equal if they
|are within 0.0<97 zeroes>01 of each other.
    
    WRONG.  Not always.  Sometimes, two floating point numbers are *NEVER*
    equal.
    
    re: binder
    
|   .46
|    
|   works fine on a mips ultrix box.  8 iterations.
    
    Before everyone rushes off and tries this everywhere, I suspect it
    will work just ducky just about on everything but VAX/VMS and
    Alpha OpenVMS (might work on Alpha OpenVMS just fine though).
    
   								-mr. bill

Works fine on OpenVMS AXP, too.  8 iterations.

Does indeed seem to have a problem on VAX.  I'm not sure what the
precision rules are supposed to be on VAXC, and whether requesting
D or G floating point is relevant to the problem.

/john

    108.47-49
    
    I thought we were talking about ads?
    

    vax has a known fp bug.  rather than fix it lo these many years ago,
    the decision was made to fix the diagnostic to expect wrong answers.

    Well, it's germane in that Digital can't run attack ads against the
    Pentium chip... 8^)

    
    are you saying they found one in the Alpha as well?

    No, I am not.  But if we attacked the Pentium, Intel could attack our
    previous hardware, and who'd know the difference?
    
    Besides, I would be willing to bet the Alpha is not perfect, anyway.

    VAX has a known limited exponent precision with d_float.  (The
    extra bits went to the fraction, so you get more places, but not
    more range.)
    
    
    With D_FLOAT, a really really small number is about 1E-38.  (Same as
    VAX single precision.)
    
    So, 1E-99 is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too small.
    
    
    With G_FLOAT, a really really small number is 1E-300-something.
    
    So, 1E-99 is not too small.
    
    								-mr. bill

Right, I didn't think it was a bug on VAX.

As the comment in the code stated, you need to know what you're doing.
And it all depends on how small a number you can represent.  In D floating,
you can't represent 0.0<97 zeroes>01.

I'm not sure what you do in C to request G floating instead of D.

/john

    So, can we run attack ads against Pentium then? 8^)

re .58

It would be pretty stupid to run Pentium attack ads, since we sell Pentiums.

/john

    Re: .57
    
    >I'm not sure what you do in C to request G floating instead of D.
    
    Compile /G_FLOAT, then link to VAXCRTLG before VAXCRTL.

    Yeah, but they ran ads calling Pentium the fastest chip in the world
    when it was never true.
    
    Besides, the margin on a dozen Digital Pentium PCs wouldn't pay to keep
    the network up long enough for me to enter this reply.  (Well, perhaps
    I exaggerate, but you get the idea 8^(

>    
>    Compile /G_FLOAT, then link to VAXCRTLG before VAXCRTL.
>
Yep, that makes it work.

The program would imply that there is something wrong on VAX; the actual
problem is that the program uses a constant which isn't representable in
D Floating.

IMHO, the C compiler, when it knows it's generating D Floating Code, should
issue a warning and possibly generate the smallest D Floating constant.  It
would appear to have generated zero, though I didn't look at the code.

/john

    
|The program would imply that there is something wrong on VAX; the actual
|problem is that the program uses a constant which isn't representable in
|D Floating.
|
|IMHO, the C compiler, when it knows it's generating D Floating Code, should
|issue a warning and possibly generate the smallest D Floating constant.  It
|would appear to have generated zero, though I didn't look at the code.
    
    I would say you ought to:

$ show sym cc*
    
    Before you throw darts at the VAX C compiler.

$ cc newtons.c
                        if (fabs(y-x) < 10e-100 || i > MAXLOOP)
        ................................^
%CC-W-UNDERFLOW, In this statement, underflow occurs in evaluating the
 expression "1.0e-99".
                At line number 21 in....

								-mr. bill

%DCL-W-UNDSYM, undefined symbol - check...

Now, I haven't installed a new C compiler on my system in years, so the
compiler just might have been improved to implement my suggestion, or
the default on whatever switch controls that warning might have changed.

/john

    108.61
    
    WOW?  I can't remember the last time I only sold a couple Pentiums....I
    usually sell about 100 a time and I'll get you the margins on that if
    you like.
    
    What is all of this, a war between the VAX side of Digital and the PC
    CBU?  
    
    Come on guys revenue is revenue.
    

    To continue the rathole, why can't the PCBU sell Alpha PCs?
     
    Our PCBU account rep only handles Intel PCs, not alpha...
    
    When is a peecee, not a peecee, when it's an Alpha Peecee, I guess.

	And to expand the rathole,

	What are the salesmen who've made multiple 100-Pentium sales
	doing for their angry customers?

	If I had bought a Pentium PC from Digital, how would I get
	the chip replaced?

/john

    Apparently, if you call intel, and they feel you're a candidate for a
    replacement, they'll send you one directly.

    108.67
    
    What are you talking about?  The only time my customers become angry is
    when we can't meet their delivery schedules?  However our resellers can
    quickly delivery and that is why I partner with so much.  None of my 
    customers have ever expressed disappointment in the quality of the Pentium 
    PCs.
    
    Why don't you get all your facts right before making a statement!
    Are you sure you work for Digital and not a competitor?  I would hope
    that the employees of Digital would say only positive things about our
    product lines but I guess I was wrong.
    
    <<If I had bought a Pentium PC from Digital, how would I get
            the chip replaced?>>>
    
    	Good question but since none of my customers have never had to do
    that I can't answer it....however I'm sure that one of my field service
    reps would go out on site and service the customer the best way he
    knows how to....
    
    
    

That would assume that our field service reps have a stock of the replacement
chips from Intel. Possible, but doubtful.

    Windows Magazine, Vol 5 No 12, December 1994, pp 172-173:
    
    Two page Intel ad, where they bash the 386, declare the 486 just about
    dead, and boast about Pentium.  Even including such nonsense as Pentium
    PC's have PCI and plug-and-play (as if you can't get a 486 system with
    such a bus.)
    
    But of course, in the very same Windows Magazine, pp 141-142:
    
    Two page intel ad, where they proclaim that to speed up your i486-33MHz,
    you don't need no stinkin' Pentium, you just need overdrive IntelDX4
    100MHz (which, btw, is really an IntelDX3 99MHz, but who says that
    Digital is the only one in the world to break naming architectures?).
    
    
    Intel seems quite content to take shots at itself.
    Can't see why Digital should refrain at the same.
    (If we don't, IBM might, so some folks who soured on Intel will be
    more likely to move to PowerPC.)
    
    
    All that said, making hay on this FP issue would be riscy.  (Bad pun.)
    
    
    Analyst quoted in the Glob today says it will only cost Intel 100M
    to replace every Pentium out there.  That's peanuts to Intel these
    days.  It ain't peanuts to Dell, Gateway, Compaq, IBM, HP, Digital,
    etc etc etc....
    
    Guess how this is going to work out?
    
    
    (But I do have visions of a web page somewhere with the "Intel Inside
    Pentium Power" logo with a bug running across it.)
    
    								-mr. bill
                                                                          

    108.70
    
    Give me a break.....Do you guys every have anything positive to say?
    
    

re: .69

Since you are wondering what .67 is talking about, I think you need to read
before you start flaming on others.

You say you have sold over 100 Pentium units to single customers.  An error in
the Pentium floating point chip has been identified.  It turns out, it doesn't
always divide properly.  Do you want a computer that doesn't always divide
properly?  Do your customers?  How will your customers get the faulty Pentium
chips replaced?

Bob

    re. 108.73
    
    Flaming others?
    
    Maybe anyone those who have contributed to a negative note(s) should think 
    about their "flaming" of Digital as a company.  
    
    I'm really glad to know that know one outside of Digital has access to
    this file.  I would hate for people to know that even the employees are
    not saying anything good about Digital.
    
    Go on and keeping debating this...rathole.
    
     

    
    I feel as if I should stick out my hand to be rulered.

Note 108.74 by AIMHI::SEIFERT
    
    
    >Maybe anyone those who have contributed to a negative note(s) should think 
    >about their "flaming" of Digital as a company.  
    
    why? this company has done some pretty stupid things lately and a good
    public (within DEC) ass chewing has proven to rectify some of the
    deeds. we still seem hell bent for self destruction. or at least not
    being part of the elite of the computing vendors.
    
    >I would hate for people to know that even the employees are
    >not saying anything good about Digital.
    
    they know. you can't destroy morale for YEARS without it showing. and
    there are tens-of-thousands of laid off deccee's out there. don't
    suppose they are to happy with us. get your head out the sand. reality
    ain't alway flat ground and straight fences.

    
     

re:                      <<< Note 108.72 by AIMHI::SEIFERT >>>
>    108.70
>    Give me a break.....Do you guys every have anything positive to say?

I'll tell you what.

Since you're prepared to tell "our" customers that FS can fixem up if they
run across this Pentium problem, why don't you call FS and ask them exactly
how they intend to service these customers and whether or not they in fact
do have a stock of the replacement chips from Intel.

If I'm wrong, and they do, and they're prepared to correct the problem in
volume, then I'll apologize for being negative.

If I'm right, and they don't, you can take off the rose colored glasses
and stop pretending eveything is sunshine and lollipops.

Deal?

re: .74

>    re. 108.73
    
>    Flaming others?
    
>    Maybe anyone those who have contributed to a negative note(s) should think 
>    about their "flaming" of Digital as a company.  

.67 asks

>	What are the salesmen who've made multiple 100-Pentium sales
>	doing for their angry customers?

>	If I had bought a Pentium PC from Digital, how would I get
>	the chip replaced?

and you flame him in .69 with

>    What are you talking about?  The only time my customers become angry is
>    when we can't meet their delivery schedules?  However our resellers can
>    quickly delivery and that is why I partner with so much.  None of my 
>    customers have ever expressed disappointment in the quality of the Pentium 
>    PCs.
    
>    Why don't you get all your facts right before making a statement!
>    Are you sure you work for Digital and not a competitor?  I would hope
>    that the employees of Digital would say only positive things about our
>    product lines but I guess I was wrong.

That was totally uncalled for.  There is a bug in the Pentium chips, so you had
better get ready for a few customers being disappointed in the quality of the
Pentium PCs.

As for getting facts right, I don't see any incorrect statement in .67, so
maybe YOU should get YOUR facts right before YOU make a statement.  The rest
of that paragraph is completely off the wall.

Bob

    re -1
    
    i agree.

    108.76
    
    YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS HAD HIS/HER ASS CHEWED...I'VE BEEN IN
    THE SAME BOAT. YET I'VE REALIZED THAT THERE ARE SOMETHINGS I CAN CHANGE
    AND SOME THINGS I CAN'T!  LOOK, DIGITAL IS REALLY TRYING TO CHANGE AND
    BE A BIG PLAYER AGAIN IN THE MARKET PLACE SO HOW DO YOU THINK WE CAN EVER
    ACHIEVE THIS IF EVEN THE EMPLOYEES DON'T BELIEVE IN THE COMPANY?
    
    I WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO SELL AS WELL AS I DO IF I DIDN'T BELIEVE IN THIS
    COMPANY!  DIGITAL HAS A LOT OF GREAT THINGS HAPPENING AND WE ALL SHOULD
    BE REALLY EXCITED. EVEN IF I HAVE HAD THE WORST DAY AND SOMEONE ASKS ME
    HOW IS DIGITAL...I SAY GREAT!   
    
	I'M SORRY BUT NOT GOING TO BE A PART OF THIS DISCUSSION ANYMORE. I
    FEEL THAT IT JUST A WASTE OF TIME.

    Re: .81
    
    >I FEEL THAT IT JUST A WASTE OF TIME.
    
    Well, I think we can all agree on that.
    
    And she had started out so well; how disappointing.

    
    Re: .81:
    
    Is `ass' a recognizable obscenity? 
    

    
    
    Quite so, Chelsea.  It was nice to see the enthusiasm.  The first
    question that came to my mind is, "How long has this individual been
    with the corporation?"  I know many of us who have been around for a
    few years have tried to get fired up over and over again.  Tried to
    make a difference by providing input through various channels to no
    avail.  I'd like to catch some of the attitude that this person has
    once again.  Thing is, I need to seem some positive signs.
    
    
    Mike

    I'm still trying to find the person who said such dreadful things about
    our great benefactor... that set her in off in the first place...
    
    -b

re: .81

Bye!

    re. .81 STOP SHOUTING!!
    
    
         <<< HUMANE::DISK$CONFERENCES:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DIGITAL.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< The Digital way of working >-
================================================================================
Note 3523.33             The Incredible Shrinking Staff                 33 of 52
HAAG::HAAG "Rode hard. Put up wet."                  13 lines  23-NOV-1994 11:07
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    perhaps the most frustrating thing is the total denial by certain
    management types that this is happening. or, as i've seen over the last
    few years here at dec, we get flooded with statements insinuating that
    this is how employees are being treated by all the other companies in
    this industry. we seem to justify treating employess shabbily by
    sticking our heads in the sand stating "its like this everywhere".
    that's rubbish. i am very skeptical about this company turning around
    if we don't re-establish the employee as a valued asset. some of the
    horror stories over the last few years, many detailed in this
    conference, are simply incredible. its not hard to see why many have
    developed an attitude that says "the hell with everything else, what's
    in it for me"? that's an extremely unhealthy attitude for turning a
    company around. but i see it everyday.

>    Is `ass' a recognizable obscenity? 
    
Heh heh.

RSX DCL error messages are "XXX - error text", where "XXX" is the command
containing the error.

There is an ASSIGN command.

Documentation group actually changed the example to be "A** - error text".

I kid you not.

/john

    Ms. Seifert,
    
    If the ads generated real business for PC-BY-DEC then I am glad about
    that.  Personally I caught a few of the ads and IMHO they were most
    forgettable.....overall content was confusing and garbled to me.
    
    Digital will have to sell one heckuva of a lot of PCs to save the
    company's bacon; we DO need to increase sales of other processors and
    I don't see these ads helping us do that.
    
    I work for 800-DEC-SALE; it's most discouraging to assist a rep, a
    VAR/OEM or re-seller and hear them reiterate time and again how our
    SW license pricing and MCS/WARRANTY uplift pricing just put us OUT
    of the running on a bid.
    
    

	Any one seen IBM's OS/2 Warp commercial on TV last night ??

	I thought it was excelent. Why can't we do these things...%^(

    didn't see the warp commercial, but i've always gotten a chuckle out of
    knowing that the beautiful intel commercials - with the viewpoint
    sweeping along the circuit board and around plug-in cards till it gets
    to the chip with the big "intel inside" logo - were made on a
    macintosh.

	I think the Warp commercial was great.

	What I found interesting was that the music used
during the add was very similar to the new DEC commercial.

    I think product focus might be phase two of our strategy. Cuddlin'
    up business is phase one.

    We got an interesting call at the Center today.  It seems a gentleman
    saw our disaster recovery services ad today...you know...the deplorable
    "Hell has our number" ad.  anyway, he called today and was trying to
    emphasize that he had a new invention to put out fires.  It seems he
    was looking for a backer to help him get this invention to market.
    
    The response was:  Sir...we are a computer company.
    
    Ohhh...Ohhhh....well, thanks anyway!!
    
    -Jack

>       <<< Note 108.91 by GMT1::TEEKEMA "Holly sheep dip Batman....." >>>


>	Why can't we do these things...%^(

Copyright law?

or
why would we want to advertise their products?

    Just thinking...
    
    "Hell has our phone number"
    
    Is that so they have someone to call to fix all those VAXes?
    
    -b

    How interesting this topic popped up.  Just got off the line with
    an end user (AAA Motor Club in Dearborn, Mich).  Poor dude wanted
    to place an RFP for PC's and services.  He said he had called a
    local DEC office in Michigan - they bounced him to 1-800-354-9000
    (CSC).  The CSC probably heard "I'm interesting in buying" and dumped
    him to us at 800-DEC-SALE.  I can't sell squat to anyone (we do pre-
    sales support).
    
    I explained that DEC Direct was the organization who could help him;
    dialed 1-800-DIGITAL for him and stayed on the line until I could
    conference on a rep (since his primary interest was service I didn't
    opt for PC-BY-DEC).
    
    Obviously our ads aren't impressing many of our internal organizations
    either; they shouldn't be "dumping" the customers to 800#s to begin
    with, too bad they can't get it right if they must do The Digital
    Dump :-(
    

    I agree.

    I snarfing agree!

    
    Actually, I think IBM's new ads (shown during the football today) are a
    million times catchier than Digital's new ads, and they're rather droll
    too 8^).
    
    The Digital ads give me the shivers with the flashing lights.

    Hope everyone saw the ads for DIGITAL's new notebook computers during
    the Orange Bowl.  Great Ads.  Good to see something on the
    tube that you (and your friends and family) can really relate to.
    
    Dan

    Is it Oh-range Bowl or Are-range Bowl?

    Neither, it's Uh-range bowl. Hope this helps.
    
    -b

    Is it Fl-oh-rida or is it Fl-are-ida?

    
    It's ARRange and FlARRida, and you know it!

Actually, it is the Fed-Ex Orange Bowl, to be presise.

ME

    
    
    aw-runge bowl in flaw-rid-ah.
    
    and the new notebook ads are good.  i still like the other ones, with
    the rock music...but i hate to admint, i do like the ibm ones, too...
    
    

    I still maintain the it's Oh-range and Fl-oh-rida.

	Pipe down, Canuck, or we won't make the Great White North our
	51st state.  (  8^)  )

    had a person at church tell me he was offended by Digital's "hell has
    our number" ad...I told him I wasn't impressed either...

    Youse is all wrong.  It's Ernge and Flooridder.  
    
    Brian

    
    pssttt....joe...pay attention!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    

    	Sorry.  New year.  New fingers.  New brain.  And a lactic acid
    	buildup from all that running that must be affecting my brain.
    
    	I'll get the bugs worked out shortly...

    Huntsville, AL 2/1-2/3 
    
    To do first article inspections on packaging for a new double secret
    product set to be introduced soon.  I could tell ya' but I'd have to
    hurt ya'.
    
    Brian 

    Mason Jars, right?

What, the Digital space station?

/john

    
    Having seen the latest "security" ads, in both print and video,
    I've decided I like the.
    
    This AM I heard a news program (not an ad) mention Digital (tm)'s
    new product announcements, including the extension of the Starion
    line, and apparently more computer retailers signing up.
    
      bb

    Saw a great ad for the Hi-note Ultra laptop on TV Tuesday night.
    
    Picture of a small PC sitting on a desk, complete with keyboard,
    monitor, and desktop system box. Camera starts to zoom in ...
    
    	"The Hi-note Ultra from Digital isn't the only personal
    	computer system that can provide you with:
    
    	   o  a 256 meg hard drive (or whatever size)
    	   o  a full 14" color screen
    	   o  pc spec
    	   o  pc spec
    	   o  pc spec"
    
    	Camera continues to zoom in and then pans left to the top of 
    	the desk where there is an interoffice envelop (the kind with a
    	string that is used to seal it).
    
    "It isn't the only personal computer that offers you all those
    things and more. However, it IS the only computer system"
    {actor now unravelling the string around the envelope} 
    "that will fit in a package this size" ... {as actor slides the
    Hi-Note out of the envelope}.
    
    Nice looking product. Great ad.
    

    a full 14" screen?  in a laptop?  now that's impressive.
    
    digital made the boston glob last week, in the business section.  'twas
    in an article about how lousy the manuals supplied with computers are,
    and the gist was that some manufacturers are taking steps to remedy the
    problem.  digital, the first name mentioned, is including online
    versions of the windows guide for dummies, the dos guide for dummies,
    and the windows for workgroups guide for dummies (howard r. sams books)
    on the starion line.

    >>a full 14" screen in a laptop ... ??
    
    I'm pretty sure. I saw a prototype a while back that used the entire
    flip up top as a screen (almost no space around the edges.) Sucker's
    only about an inch thick, too.
    

    OK, suppose like many CRTs, the LCD panel in question uses a
    diagonal measure. If it's diagonal, corner to corner in the
    largest dimension, that would make the diagonal the hypotenuse
    of a right triangle. By the Pythagorean theorem:
    
    	sqrt (8.5^2 + 11^2) = 13.9, which is pretty damn close...
    
    -b

    .123
    
    it's not 8x11; it must be larger.  an interoffice envelope is 10x13.
    
    the problem is the necessity for supplying power and control to the
    lcd matrix.  if they can do that, i'm impressed.
    
    but i don't want one.

SnotaMac, right?

    The High Note and High Note Ultra are both 8.5 x 11.  
    
    Brian

	HiNote and HiNote Ultra have 9.5" screens.
	
	Overall system dimensions are 8.5"x11.0"x1.5"
	
	according to the PCatalog(tm)

    > Overall system dimensions are 8.5"x11.0"x1.5"
    
    Well, I guess that in that case I'm not impressed by the sheer compact
    size of the machine.  PowerBook Duos have been available since 1992;
    they are 8.5"x10.9"x1.4".  But that 9.5" screen is - even though it's
    not a whopping 14" - nice.  The Duo 280C's screen is only 8.5".  Can
    the HiNote machines support 16-bit color?

	akchewally, they range in in thickness from 1.0" (the Ultra Mono)
	to 1.7" (the HiNote TFT color). The Ultra TFT Color is 1.2"
	
	i'm note sure "they" were trying to impress you. 
	you could ask "them" tho.
	
	;-)
	
	not sure 'bout 16-bit color.

    I was wrong anyways. I just got my new PC catalogue, and it says right
    there in black 'n' white that it's a 9.5" screen.
    
    {blushing ... OB-viously ashamed of his technical error}
    
    :^<\
    

re: .121, Dick

>		digital, the first name mentioned, is including online
>    versions of the windows guide for dummies, the dos guide for dummies,
>    and the windows for workgroups guide for dummies (howard r. sams books)
>    on the starion line.

This is a very shrewd move in my opinion. Whoever is responsible for it
is hopefully getting a nice raise this year.

Including mass market books with the purchase, which titles most people
would end up buying anyway, is the type of thing we should be thinking
about much more often if we don't intend to supply proprietary docs.

Congrats to whomever it was.

    While I agree in principle Jack, I wonder how many people like
    opening the package only to be beaten over the head with the
    implication that they're "dummies". I always found the title
    of those books slightly offensive. But then again, a lot of
    people seem to buy them and don't mind that the publisher thinks
    they're dumb.
    
    -b

 I don't care what the publisher thinks...I *know* I'm a dummy when it
comes to PCs..


 The books are a lot like the "How to repair your Volkswagen for the
 Complete Idiot" books that were out years ago (and may still be out)..they
 were a big help for a dummy like me.




Jim

I don't know, Brian. They sell like hotcakes, and I know few people who
haven't bought one or more titles. I think folks consider it more
humorous than insulting. The books are a lot easier to assimilate
than the more dry MicroSoft tomes, but I have to admit that if you
can't get them at a discount price, they aren't really worth paying
list for unless one is totally computer illiterate.

	>But then again, a lot of
        >people seem to buy them and don't mind that the publisher thinks
        >they're dumb.

	most of them are probably smart enough to know that the
	publisher doesn't really think they're "dumb". 

	Must be that 80% of the population who categorize
	themselves as smarter than average that's buying
	all the books, eh?

    Somebody seems not to have picked up on my point that the "dummies"
    books being offered are ONLINE versions.  No paper.  I'd guess that
    there must be some spiffy book-reading software there.

    
    
    If you are computer illiterate, how can you get to the on-line books?
    
    
    
    
    
    I donut under stand.....
    
    
    Terrie
    

    >	most of them are probably smart enough to know that the
    >	publisher doesn't really think they're "dumb". 
    
    I suppose that's one possibility, another being that the
    people are not quite smart enough to realize that the
    publisher really does think they're dumb. :-)
    
    Either way, the title of the books is one of the randomly
    selected things that I sometimes get a bee in my bonnet
    about. Not a big deal really, but I must admit that I
    would never consider buying a book with "for dummies"
    in the title. I dunno... just a poorly conceived pet
    peeve I guess.
    
    -b

They aren't the real "<Mumble> for Dummies" books.  They are some copycat books
called "The Complete Guide for Idiots to <Mumble>".  I've never read any
of the Idiots books so I can't compare them to the <Mumble> for Dummies.

Bob

    .141
    
    Bob, the titles cited in the article specifically included the word
    "dummies."  Not "idiots," "dummies."  Do you think the Glob miscopied
    THREE titles?  Or perhaps Digital supplied the wrong information?

re: .142

While I was composing my reply, I had my friend who purchased a Starion in
January, read me the title of the manual off the screen.

Perhaps the earlier ones came with the "<mumble> for Dummies" or perhaps the
new versions with Pentiums due out soon, will have "<mumble> for Dummies".

Bob

    In an interesting sidenote, one of the newsmags had an article about
    IBM's new extra-small laptops.  Just IBM, like they're the only ones
    who could have such a thing.

    It's a notable step for IBM, who used to be known for building
    behemoths.

	and big computers, too...

    
    Did I hear right on the radio this morning - did Digital just
    open a PC price war, slashing Venturis/Celebris prices 20% across
    the board ?  I thought our margins were thin.
    
      bb

It was in Livewire yesterday.

   Date          Network                 Program   (subject to change)
 
   Nov. 26       
                 ABC                     Good Morning America/Sunday      
   
                 CBS                     Sunday Evening News
                                         Face the Nation
   
                 NBC                     Sunday Today
                                         AFC Game 1
                                         Sunday Movie: "Jurassic Park"
   
                 A&E                     Bob Vila
                                         Breakfast with the Arts
                                         Screening Room
   
                 CNBC                    America's Talking Showcase
                                         Dick Cavett
                                         Straight Forward
                                         Talk All-Stars
                 
                 CNN                     Sports Today
                                         Your Money
                                 
                 TDC                     Discovery Sunday
   
                 ESPN                    NFL Gameday
                                         Sportscenter
   
                 TLC                     TLC Presents
                                         Weekend Marathon
   
                 TBS                     Techwatch
                 
                 TNT                     Prime Movies
   
                 SciFi                   Sunday Program Rotation


   Dec. 3        
                 ABC                     Good Morning America/Sunday
 
                 CBS                     Sunday News
                                         Sunday Movie "Haunting of Helen Walker"
 
                 Fox                     NFC Game 2
         
                 NBC                     Sunday Today
                                         Mad About You
   
                 A&E                     Reasonable Doubt
                                         The Last Days
                         
                 CNBC                    America's Talking Showcase
                                         Dick Cavett
                                         Straight Forward
                                         Talk Allstars
         
                 CNN                     Your Money
                 
                 ESPN                    NFL Gameday
   
                 TDC                     Discovery Sunday
   
                 SciFi                   Sunday Program Rotation
   
                 TBS                     Movie Blast
   
   Dec. 9
                 Fox                     NFC Game
 
   Dec. 10
                 ABC                     Good Morning America/Sunday      
   
                 CBS                     Sunday AM News
                                         Face the Nation
                                         Sunday Evening News
   
                 NBC                     Sunday Today
                                         AFC Game 1
                                         AFC Game 2
   
                 A&E                     Bob Vila
                                         Breakfast with the Arts
                                         Family Movie
   
                 CNBC                    America's Talking Showcase
                                         Straight Forward
                                         Dick Cavett
                                         Talk Allstars

                 CNN                     Sports Today
   
                 TDC                     Discovery Sunday
   
                 ESPN                    NFL Gameday
   
                 TLC                     Scientific American Wonders
                                         Ultrascience Report
                                         Wonders of the Universe
                                         Best of TLC
   
                 SciFi                   Sunday Program Rotation
   
                 TBS                     Techwatch
                                         Movie Blast
 
   Dec. 16
                 Fox                     NFC Game
 
   Dec. 17       
                 ABC                     Good Morning America/Sunday      
                                         Sunday Movie "Dare to Love"
   
                 CBS                     Sunday AM News
                                         60 Minutes
   
                 Fox                     NFC Game 2
   
                 NBC                     Sunday Today
   
                 A&E                     Bob Vila
                                         Screening Room
   
                 CNBC                    Talk Allstars
                                         Dick Cavett
                                         Straight Forward
         
                 CNN                     Daybreak
                                         Sports Sunday
                                         Sports Today
                 
                 ESPN                    NFL Gameday
 
                 TDC                     Discovery Sunday
                 
                 SciFi                   Sunday Program Rotation
 
   Dec. 23
                 Fox                     NFC Game
 
   Dec. 24
                 ABC                     Sunday World News
                                         Good Morning America/Sunday
                                         Sunday Movie "Colombo"
 
                 CBS                     Sunday AM News
                                         Face the Nation
                                         Sunday Evening News
                                         60 Minutes
 
                 Fox                     NFC Game
 
                 NBC                     Sunday Today
                                         AFC Game 1
                                         AFC Game 2
 
                 A&E                     Ancient Mysteries
                                         Bob Vila
                                         Screening Room
 
                 CNBC                    Strait Forward
                                         Talk AllStars
                                         Dick Cavett
 
                 CNN                     CNN Presents
                                         Daybreak
                                         Sunday Sports
 
                 ESPN                    NFL Gameday
 
                 SciFi                   Sunday Program Rotation
 
                 TDC                     Discovery Sunday
 
                 TLC                     Weekend Marathon
 
                 TNT                     Prime Movies
 
   Dec. 30
                 ABC                     Wild Card Pre Game
                                         Wild Card Game 1
                                         Wild Card Game 2
 
   Dec. 31
                 ABC                     Good Morning America/Sunday
                                         Sunday World News
                                         Sugar Bowl
 
                 CBS                     Sunday AM News
                                         Sunday Evening News
                                         60 Minutes
 
                 NBC                     Sunday Today
                                         Sunday Nightly News

                 A&E                     Bob Vila
                                         Family Movie
                                         Screening Room
 
                 CNBC                    Strait Forward
                                         Talk Allstars
 
                 CNN                     Daybreak
                                         Newsday
                                         Sunday Sports
 
                 SciFi                   Sunday Program Rotation
 
                 TBS                     Movie Blast
 
                 TLC                     Weekend Marathon
 
   Jan. 1
                 ABC                     Rose Bowl
                                         Florida Citrus Bowl
 
                 Raycom                  Gator Bowl
                                         Cotton Bowl
 
   

    I saw the ad on A&E, it was a very good ad.  I hope we keep up the good
    work
    
    Dennis

    I just picked up the spring copy of Canadian life gardening, Intel have 
    four pages of ads in it, two single pages then a double page that
    is supposed represent a home office, the computer very prominently
    displayed is a Compaq. The head line on the double page reads "the best 
    ideas flourish at home" The whole thing reads like it is a feature
    of the magazine.
    
    These ads are very eyecatching.
    
     We could use some like that.
    
    
    joan