Conference back40::soapbox

"I want to go to Miiiiyaaaaameeeeee!"

    
    
                                  :)

Thunderbird!

    Cold Duck!

    Something very red, very dark, French and leaves your head somewhere in
    a different time zone the following morning, with really smelly cheese.
    
    Mike.
    
    Eric?

    Wine, I wouldn't touch the stuff.  I can't even survive four beers
    without becoming twisted beyond repair.
    
    >:-|
    
    
    

    It's an acquired ability.

    It's good just before and after a belt of Scotch.
    
    

    Amen.... i think.

    "Wine from the house of the sighs (really the sniffles) of the lovely
    young beauty."  I.e., 
    
    
    "Maiden's Mucus."
    
    L' Chayim!!!

    
    I have two belts of Scotch - one is dress stewart and the other is
    black watch.

    
    
    Wino in liquor store: "This chit's teppid....you bring it down to the
    proper temperature, and when you're done, come out and get me.  I'll be
    out front taking a leak on your front stoop."
    
    
    
    :*)
    

    
    my kind of whine guy Dick ..

 '91 ridge geyersville zin

    
    
    Rep .15  Di
    
    >>>'91 ridge geyersville zin
    
      you godless infidel!!! it's not ready to drink yet and you didn't
    invite mark and i along to try it with you!!!  ;-)
    
    
    -mike
    
    

    The latter, of course, being the more grievous sin...

    
>>  you godless infidel!!!

	i almost read this as "godless zinfandel" first. ;>

>>  it's not ready to drink yet

	hoho.  tell that to my taste buds.  it were wonderful.
	(i'm sure you're right that it will improve though).

>>  and you didn't
>>  invite mark and i along to try it with you!!!  ;-)

        for this, i am indeed sorry.  contrite almost.

	- diane
    

>              -< I only have six left out of the case I bought!! >-

We've apparently now identified one that comes in a box.

    Yessssss!!!!  A nice Atheistic Zin in a box.
    
    Brian 

	I prefer an Atheistic sin in a box.....%^)

        I prefer altruistic skin in a box......
    

 '91 Stonestreet Merlot - dee-lishus.


  - godless infidel

    From the news I've heard about flooding in Sonoma County (at least),
    the damage is minimal. Most producers seem to be unworried, and I heard
    an estimate that only 5% of the vines are underwater. Good news.

    Just got a case of 1993 Bordeaux in yesterday ... a little vintage
    called Chateau de Beauregard-Ducourt. It scored very well in a wine
    tasting done in the Netherlands in November (came out on top). 
    
    I did my own little tasting last night. It's a very dry wine and when
    you first open it, the dryness really hits you. But after it's been
    left to breathe for a while it is very good stuff! I think this is
    going to be a fabulous wine in another year or two.
    
    Whew .. that's enough culture for one week. We now return you to our
    regularly scheduled program.
    
    
    

    '93? What's the appellation? Most 92 bordeaux haven't yet been
    released. This must be from a tiny place in Fronsac or Entre-Deux-Mers
    or something.
    
     93 is not expected to be a particularly good vintage. Cheers to you if
    you made a good find despite the market conditions.

    The appellation is Bourdeax and you are correct that it is from the
    Entre-Deux-Mers region. The vinyard is almost directly East from the
    Bourdeax area and is not that large (just under 50 hectares). The
    Chateau and vinyards changed hands in 1975. One of the many
    improvements the new owners made was to switch over to French oak
    barrels. 
    
    The tasting included about 40 other wines (about half each from '93 and
    '92). It is very drinkable now, even though it is obviously a young
    wine, but I think by 1997 or 1998, it is going to prove to be an
    excellent purchase.
    
    Intern
    
    

	Ze '95 Wine Expo in Boston - she was fun.  Nice to be wandering 
	around, tasting the stuff while the snow was coming down outside 
	Saturday.

	

     Thumbs up for the 91 Ferrari-Carano merlot. Nicely balanced, plenty
    of sweet fruit. 
    
     Picked up a few bottles at the wine store saturday- 89 reserve de la
    comtesse, 89 clos du marquis, 89 ch meyney, 90 les tourelles, 89
    trimbach riesling cuvee frederic emile, 89 beychevelle, 90 la lagune,
    91 mondavi cab and a few others. nothing like a 10+10 sale.

    RE: 89 trimbach/riesling/cuvee/frederic/emile...
    
    Sounds like a wine for our own Mr. Multiplicity, Glenn R.  
    
    :-)

    the word(s) of the day: vosne romanee

 <genuflecting>

	Mark, what happened to "box"?

    heretic!

    
    Ok, I am not a wine expert, and I need some help.
    Alan and I are going to a friend's house for dinner
    and hot tubbing this evening.  They are from England,
    and are planning several curry dishes. (One being some
    type of a chicken dish.)  
    
    I would like to bring a very nice bottle of wine to go with
    dinner, but I don't want to spend more than $25.00.  Can
    I get some suggestions??
    
    Thanks!
    
    Terrie
    

	Terrie, you're going to England to go hot tubbing???? Way cool! Don't
worry about bringing a good wine, they are from England ya know, so they won't
know the difference. I recommend a box-o-wine. 


Glen

Perhaps Glenn can recommend a fine Canadian wine.  Canadian wines are being
featured at a Boston-area liquor store whose name I forget.

	It's at a store called Canadian-wines-R-us

    
    
    Glen!  You are absolutely no help at all!
    
    
    
    
    
    But, you did make me smile. :*)
    
    Terrie
    

	If you want a white that'll stand up to curries, you
	might think about a good Gewurztraminer.

    Nah...keep that nasty Gewurztraminer-stuff...a good $6 bottle of Cold
    Duck should do the trick.
    
    8^)

| <<< Note 43.43 by PENUTS::DDESMAISONS "no, i'm aluminuming 'um, mum" >>>


| If you want a white that'll stand up to curries, 
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^

	My Lady, they are supposed to have fun at this, not go to war!

Nonsense!  Standing up to curries is the white wine's burden.

    
    Well, I eat a lot of curries, I've tried this, and I'd say pitchers
    of beer go better with Indian cooking than any wine.  If you really
    must, buy a bottle of tawny port for desert.
    
      bb

	bb has the right approach. If you use a red wine it would be the Right
approach. If you use white wine, well, it would ruin it..... 

    savigny-les-beaune (blanc) from Jadot, 1990. 2 X yum.

    
    need a corkscrew doctah?

    What is the appropriate wine to go with an Easter dinner of ham, sweet
    potatoes, salad, etc.? (Besides a box o'cab?)
    
    Dan

    Thanks.
    
    Beaujolais may be a wineer in that the wife likes it, but I will look
    at the aussie shiraz selection.
    
    Can I get a box o' beaujo?:-)
    
    Dan

Blue Nun.

If you can't find any, I still have some left . . . 

    
    You are a hermit.... aren't you...
    
    :)
    

Carlo Rossi with cow meat.
Blue nun with sow meat.

-Jack-boy-Bob

    	I second the suggestion of Blue Nun.  Was it you who bought
    	the case at the same time I did when it was real cheap?
    
    	And white zinfandel goes OK with most things -- at least to
    	the us with less-discriminating tastes.

Yup - that was me, Joe.

    Still looking for a bottle of pagan pink ripple.
    
    be fun for a full moon sometimes
    
    meg

I can't help with the pagan pink Ripple, but here in New Hampshire we
have this fine product called "Purple Passion" which is made from
Grape Juice and Everclear.

    re Purple passion  (urp)
    
    No Pagan pink ripple is something i have been looking for for a
    particular person, who has been known to use bali-hi as the fill for
    the cup more than once.
    
    meg

I haven't touched Ripple since one night in my second year of college
when I had some friends over and woke up the next morning to find my
front door (in a questionable neighborhood) wide open . . . 

    Ah, Pagan Pink Ripple, Boones Farm Apple Wine, and Bali Hi.  A true
    smorgasboard of high school fine wines.  Serve well chilled with
    Pringles or twinkies.
    
    Dan

    
    yago sangria, and thunderbird too.

    Riunite Rosato.  

    And I also quite enjoyed the Jaboulet crozes-hermitage 'les jalets'
    1990. It could easily stand another 3 years of bottle age, but is
    already drinking quite pleasantly indeed. A marginal though acceptable
    match with sunday's ham, it was a delight with last night's dead cow.
    ;-)

    RE: .63-.66
    
    "These are the wines of the Fenway.......
    
    Funnier if you read off the names in the same stately manner as the
    Gallo ad :-).  
    
    Our selections for Easter dinner were several bottles of <forgot the
    vintner> Merlot with several bottles of <forgot the vintner> Shiraz and
    several bottles of <forgot the vintner> cheap Chardonnay all sans box,
    avec cork.  We had ham and turkey, I think.  
    
    

	'91 Louis Latour Chardonnay "Grand Ardeche"

	massively good (iffen you like the Burgundian style
	chards, that is); stunningly inexpensive

	.73 Naaah.  It doesn't have to be done in a pretentious way.	
	    Why have the poor waiter fill everyone's glass with bad
	    wine and then have to take them all away, get new glasses,
	    and all that crap?  I've ordered a couple of bottles that
	    had to be sent back because the wine was bad, and several
	    that had to sent back because it was the wrong year.  Makes
	    sense to ensure it's okay at the outset.

    
    Oh, chateaubriand.  I haven't had red meat in, well, months 8^/.

       I don't presume to know if that was the original "rationale", but
       it would seem a matter of obvious practicality at the very least,
       and more to the point - do-able, unlike having the food sampled..  

       People who do it regularly don't have to make a big, showy production
       out of it, which I agree is obnoxious.

    >There's just no reason to single out wine for pre-tasting, except
    >that it's a dumb ritual.
    
     I respectfully disagree. Wine is shared among several participants. As
    such it brings with it an increased liability in the form of sullied
    glassware if the wine is found to be spoiled. Thus it makes perfect
    sense for one person to determine the wine is acceptable prior to
    pouring the remainder of the glasses. Checking the label and ensuring
    that the cork is consistent with the label and in good condition only
    protect both the consumer and restauranteur by ensuring that the
    consumer is getting what he's paying for. 
    
     Not that this need cause all conversation to cease. On the contrary,
    most of the time it is a seamless and unremarkable part of the dining
    experience (at least for us.) There is little reason to make a big deal
    out of this except when showboating, which most true lovers of wine
    eschew anyway. Those who showboat with this ritual are likely to be the
    same ones that are "conspicuous consumers" in other ways as well.
    
    >So, next time you order the wine, just tell the waitron to pour
    >it.
    
     This is frequently the case when we order young and relatively
    inexpensive wines which have not been around long enough for storage to
    be a particular concern. I still try to take a whiff before the
    waitron fills up every glass, in the off chance that we've gotten a
    corked bottle.
    
     Why not do this for every food item? Simple. There is no advantage. If
    the food is NFG, both/all plates will have to go back anyway. Besides,
    this seems to happen naturally anyway. If one or more persons get the
    same dish, the first one to taste it will remark to the others if he or
    she finds any off flavors, etc.

    How is is possible to pre-taste something?

	   .78  gee, I thought that was kinda what I said, only a tad
	        more succinc...  er, with a tad less style and flourish.  ;>

    >How come it's not done when the Widow Cliquot or her relations
    >make an appearance?
    
     Who said it's not done when the Veuve Clicquot shows up?

    re: .81
    
     Those are the hazards of replying without first reading subsequent
    replies. But at least we're consistent. ;-)

     Carton 'o cab budget, and Ch Latour palate?
    
     Well, here's a good value: Bandiera cabernet 1992. For about the price
    of a Gallo cab (well, undere $6 anyway) you get the genuine article.
    No, it's no Cain Five, Opus, or Dominus, but it's a nice bottle of
    cabernet at a very appealing price. 

    
    Taxi cab...
    
    (insert whistling sound here)

    >Gallo cab...
    
    >(Insert gagging sound here)
    
     Actually, Gallo has started to use its vineyard sources for the
    production of quality wine in addition to its ubiquitous jug wines. And
    the quality of these new, premium priced wines is quite good. But they
    are rather pricey. Admittedly, the name Gallo does not conjure up wines
    of the quality of, say, Mondavi...

	yes, this sort of gets me.  gallo has made money hand-over-fist
	on their plonk, and now they're gonna start charging an arm
	and a leg for plonk once removed.  they can keep it for now.

     It's called phylloxera, it's a louse in the aphid family, it attacks
    the roots of the vines and it's causing havoc in Napa and Sonoma due to
    the fact that most of the rootstock is AxR1 and is not resistant to the
    damage phylloxera causes.
    
     Some of the wineries are no longer selling single vineyard cuvees of
    some wines due to the fact that some historic vineyards have been
    destroyed and have had to be replanted. What it means to those of us
    who care is that the near term outlook for some coveted wines is that
    supply will be down, making for a most unfortunate price relationship.

>     Actually, Gallo has started to use its vineyard sources for the
>    production of quality wine in addition to its ubiquitous jug wines.

Starting to rival Carlo Rossi, then, are they?

    LONDON (AP) --If you drink hard liquor and want to live longer, switch
    to wine, a new Danish study suggests.
    
    The 10-year study of 13,285 men and women found people who drank three
    to five glasses of wine a day lived longer than those who abstained. 
    Hard liquor-drinkers died sooner, and beer had no impact.
    
    The findings are to be published in Saturday's issue of The British
    Medical Journal.  The investigators didn't explore the reasons for the
    health benefit.
    
    Most studies indicate that, if anything, any kind of alcohol is
    beneficial, not the particular drink.  But it still isn't clear that
    the benefits outweigh the risks.
    
    Unlike previous research, the Danish study examined all causes of
    death, including cancer and accidents, not just heart disease.
    
    "I wouldn't want to recommend never-drinkers to start drinking, but it
    does indicate that if you drink spirits (such as vodka or gin) you
    might want to change to wine," said Dr. Morten Gronbaek, the leading
    investigator at the Institute of Preventive Medicine in Copenhagen.
    
    The study found that those who drank three to five glasses of wine a
    day were half as likely to die in any particular year from all causes
    -- cancer, heart disease, and accidents -- conpared to those who did
    not drink.
    
    Those who drank three to five drinks of hard liquor daily increased
    their chances of dying by more than 30 percent.
    

I'm skeptical.  How do we know the study wasn't funded by the
Danish wine industry?

    It certainly isn't the first study to find evidence that wine in
    moderation may be beneficial.  (snapper alert).
    
    DougO

    >'zat why I can't find St Franny Reserve Merlot anywhere?
    
     I don't know whether St Francis is having a particular problem in
    their merlot vineyards, but certainly the high scores in the Spectator
    and Advocate have done nothing to increase the availability of what is
    a limited bottling in the first place. 

    >I'm skeptical.  How do we know the study wasn't funded by the
    >Danish wine industry?
    
     Well, we could start with an existence proof... ;-)

    I prefer beer, or a...

    
    is brandy a hard liquor?

 No, Brandy she's a fine girl, what a good wife she would be...



 Jim

    but my life, my love and my lady is the sea.

| <<< Note 43.103 by OUTSRC::HEISER "the dumbing down of America" >>>

| but my life, my love and my lady is the sea.


	So Mike, is that more words from Brandy or are you taking on a Jimmy
Buffett personality? :-)

    group... Looking Glass. another one-hit-wonder from the 70's.
    
    i did like the song, though.
    
    Chip

    
    Brandy is a liquor in that it's distilled rather than fermented.

    I thought Brandy was the girl next door.

    
    Regular brandy is distilled from wine, mebbe that's why.
    
    
    Brandy can be distilled from any kind of fruit juice, actually, if you
    like drinking weird stuff like that 8^). 

    TTLT: reading the following descriptions in a review of Ontario's wines:
    
    "The remaining seyvals were either disgusting, flawed or without any
    redeeming qualities. The worst smelled of oxidized pee and peony, the
    best were simply too grassy and tart."
    
    "The vidals were ultimately more drinkable as a group. Despite some
    bubble- gumminess in a couple and dill pickle odors in another pair,
    there was one I could only describe as perversely interesting. It was a
    deep yellow-brown 1992 Brights ($6.45) that displayed attributes I call
    rancid butter and Lemon Pledge."
    
    :-)

	they should have said it was "Lemon Pledgy mid-mouth".

    They're not all bad, some are quite good. At least we don't sell Sutter
    Home up here, nor do we sell Carton o' Cab.

    <--- You forgot Belleville Swill and Chatham Chunky

    >They're not all bad, some are quite good.
    
     True. Here's what the author had to say:
    
    "Of the 34 wines tasted there were no more than half a dozen I wouldn't
    splurt out in a restaurant and only a couple I would agree to pay for."

	;>  "splurt" - good word

    
    If they were the product of London Winery, then they're good for
    nothing but hand-to-hand combat!
    

>Timmons Turpentine

that'n sounds pretty good, where can I get some?  %)

Chris.

    In Timmons, Canada's largest city.

    of course they are insignificant compared to a good sydney syrup or an
    adelaide LeGopener. if the contents don't work you can always use the
    bottle!

    What are some good alcohol-removed wines?  We used some made by St.
    Regis for Passover this year.

       the best way to remove the alcohol is by ingestion
    
    I have tried several alcohol reduced wines and unfortunately they
    remove some of the flavour as well. you are better of buying a half
    bottle for $12 than an alcohol reduced for $12 and just drink less.

>    What are some good alcohol-removed wines?  We used some made by St.
>    Regis for Passover this year.

If God had wanted you to use fake wine for holy rituals, he wouldn't
have made fermentation so easy to accomplish.

/john

    Very true. Thank God for fermentation.

    and the new testament states he turned _jugs_ of water into wine,
    although i don't recall wether he actually partook of any.

    >What are some good alcohol-removed wines?
    
     Good in what sense? Frankly, I'd say this belongs in the oxymoron
    note.

    
    there are times when etoh-free wine is an advantage, such as
    during traffic stops late at night by zealot police personas.

    I should think a police officer would be insulted if you attempted to
    bribe them with an alcohol free wine...

>    and the new testament states he turned _jugs_ of water into wine,
>    although i don't recall wether he actually partook of any.

I guess they didn't have boxes back then.

    re: .122
    
    The only way to make good (as in tasty) low-alcohol wine is to make it
    yourself.  A friend of mine came across a jug of homemade from a
    relative- it was quite tasty and quite low in alcohol for wine.
    
    Of course, this advice is useless if you lack the homebrew necessities. 
    8^)
    
    -steve

    for small values of good.

    .133
    
    :-)

    >huh?
    
     re: .132, line 1.

>If God had wanted you to use fake wine for holy rituals, he wouldn't
>have made fermentation so easy to accomplish.
    
    John, this decision is a personal one and not a faith one.

Ya mean making fermentation easy was one of god's personal decisions?
Weren't they all?

"Fun Facts" is arguably such a repository.

	swiss geezer called yesterday to rub in the fact that he just
	bought a case of '83 Mouton.  sheesh.  tough life.  ;>

83 sheeps?  Haag would be jealous.

	Nice wine cellar over there, Mark.

    You went along for the ride with Mike?

    
    
    >>>You went along for the ride with Mike?
    
    
      Yup, nice house!!! I assume the wall for the wine cellar will be
    at least 2x6. 
    
    
    	-mike
    

I drove.

    Viognier. I like it. Real interesting nose: loads of spiced, exotic
    fruit. Bought a vins de pays de l'Ardeche cepage viognier for around
    $8. A nice change of pace from the ubiquitous chardonnay.
    
    Also had an Alsatian pinot gris. Yummy.
    
    An inexpensive bourgogne from Rodet, and a Markham chardonnay also
    turned out to be well worth the money.

    Yup- Bandiera is a great value label. 

    Had Columbia-Crest's 1994 gewurztraminer with take-out from the
    Szechuan Chef based on a wine writer's recommendation. Seems like they
    figured that residual sugar would be an acceptable substitute for depth
    of flavor. Best thing I can say is that it was inoffensive; but frankly
    it was barely identifiable as a gewurz. Guess I stick with Alsace.

    Er....what?
    
    Isn`t it enough to say "nice bit of grape",or "dodgy plonk" as
    appropriate?
    
    

	>>Guess I stick with Alsace.

	clever lad.

   .155 what an idjit you are, Erik.  
        could it be that the Alsace region simply produces better Gewurz?
	no, no, that just couldn't be.

    So where else ought I go for great gewurztraminer? Hmmmm?
    
     do you have constructive suggestions or are you content to poach?

       > Quelle surprendre
       
       You can't even get that right.  Quelle surprise.

   .158  and no matter what we say, you'll repeat _that_ mantra until
	 your dying day.  you _are_ an idjit - i'm sorry i ever wasted my
	 time trying to explain my tastes in wine to you.  i thought
	 maybe you could somehow remove the blinders you're wearing, but
	 obviously you have no interest in doing so.

    Wow, a wine spat.

	Milady, so sorry that you have been put through the ringer. Erik, you
need to back off..... she IS right you know. 


Glen

       Wringer.
       
       Nnttm.

    
      Who spat wine ?
    
      bb

| <<< Note 43.162 by POLAR::RICHARDSON "Darwinian Trilateralism" >>>

| Wow, a wine spat.

	Might be a whine spat

        >   Wringer.
       
    >   Nnttm.

    But but... since Lady Di has such a fondness for unsolicited
    chatty phone calls, isn't "putting her through the ringer"
    just as valid?

    -b

	.163  it ain't that much of a "wringer" glen.  i'm just sick of
	      listening to this doodlehead spout off about stuff he knows
	      nothing about.  if he were to look at my "winecellar" right
	      now, for instance, he'd see that i have primarily German
	      whites and Kaliph red Zins aging down there.  why did i buy them?
	      because i _love_ 'em.

    Those Germans will get upset with you eventually.
    
    You don't collect milkmen in a room upstairs do you?

 .169

  how dairy suggest such a thing?

    
    Shouldn't this be mooved to the ring?

	Erik, leave the squash lady alone!

    100 quatloos on Di.

    Di has some Germans in her cellar. Aren't you following?

>>     <<< Note 43.171 by APLVEW::DEBRIAE "reflections from the Grotto..." >>>
>>       -< how arrogant of you ddes - you've never seen my cellar either >-

	arrogant??  i've never accused you of liking wine from only
	one region, you ditz.  i could give a cow doot, really, what you
	like, but i'm just tired of your little "franco-" [whatever] comments
	about me and about the Doctah.  i love Gewurz, i've tried quite
	a few of them, and i still haven't found any that are better
	than those from Alsace.  what's the big effing deal?  it has nothing
	to do with France.  if Alsace was in Southeast Asia, i'd still feel
	the same way.
  

       re .171:
       
       Look, you fool: if you're going to challenge your linguistic
       limits by trying to use foreign words and phrases, you would do
       well not to get it badly wrong.  Which you did.  `Surprendre' is
       the verb `to surprise', `surprise' is the noun `surprise'.  The
       expression, common to the point of platitudinal in French, is
       `quelle surprise'.
       
       Don't blame me if you plonk [sic] yourself in here, embarrass
       yourself silly, then become a subject of scorn and ridicule.  
       
       --Mr Topaz
       
       p.s.: > squarely in the francocentric camp
       
             Please do feel free to stuff your gratuitous, erroneous 
             comments deeply into one of your hard-to-reach orifices.
       

    
      un petit allemand, mes amis ?
    
      bb

       Oh, and by the way,
       
       Dag & Tot ziens,
       
       --Mr Topaz

    passing through, one might remind Erik that Alsace is as often German
    as French, the last few hundred years.
    
    DougO

>>     <<< Note 43.155 by APLVEW::DEBRIAE "reflections from the Grotto..." >>>
>>         -< "prejudiced belief in the superiority of one's own" wine >-

>>    	limited chauvinistic lad...


	jump into the wine topic with comments like this and then whine
	about the unfriendly reaction.  right - that makes a whole lot
	of sense.

    For you folks who haven't been party to this periodic teutonic
    whinefest- Erik has a problem with people liking french wine. He thinks
    that if you like french wine, then you are by definition francocentric.
    It doesn't matter whether you like german wine, it doesn't matter
    how much of the wine in your cellar is not french, if you like french
    wine, if you dare to claim that any french wine is superior to that of
    even the most downtrodden, backwards nation (Bulgaria comes to mind)
    then you are a francophile (like this is a bad thing) and a snob and
    and as many other bad things as he can hurl with his turgid prose
    (laced with "poetically licensed" foreign language malapropisms.)
    
     Typically these sneak attacks occur in EATS or WINES where the
    cowardly Erik can foist his blitzkrieg upon an unsuspecting community
    and high tail it out of there, relying on the underlying decorum to
    shield him from the proper fallout. Fortunately the dumb bunny has
    entered our home shooting from the lip, where the "make my day" law is
    in full effect. (I just love when this happens.)
    
     A favorite tactic of the weasel is to crap on the floor and then claim
    everybody is picking on him when they point to his mess and complain.
    Poor baby. You bring it on yourself, you insignificant oaf.
    
     I'm sure it's real titillating to play with fire. Just stop crying
    when you get burnt, you pitiful whiner.

       Yee-hah, not bad.

  <polite, lady-like applause>

    
    <with a side of decorum>

    
    > Please do feel free to stuff your gratuitous, erroneous 
    > comments deeply into one of your hard-to-reach orifices.
    
    Donny I suggest that you follow your own advice in the future....
    

       
       (Someone tell him that it's a bad idea to stand up in the middle
       of other people's manure-tosses)

    Er, Dan, it ain't really a good idear to stand up when fecal matter
    is airborn and with velocity going between two parties of which you 
    aren't one.
    
    

    Yeah, but it's fun to watch. 

Score to date:

         The Doctah   the whiney geek   Dan(never-know-when-to-quit)Killoran

Style        9.7           0.3                   4.0

flair        9.9           HA!                   7.0

stupidity    N/A           9.5 eclipsed only by  9.9

    
    I really didn't think it possible that this topic
    could turn out this way. 
    
    Doc, well done as usual.
    
    							Hank

    
    I have pictures in my head of Niles and Frasier going at it.....

    Oh, and BTW, I washed down my lunch with that great french <smirk> wine
    Montepulciano d'Abruzzo.

   .197  franco-american-ophile!

	No no, di, that would only apply if he ate spaghettio's for lunch!

    
    <---------
    
    BWAHAHAHAHAHAH
    
    

    re: spaghettio's
    
     Well, looked sorta similar. Mushroom filled tortellini in a wild
    mushroom sauce. Absolutely delish.

  .199  yes, yes, that's what i was getting at.

	>>(really ddes, you two should just get
    	a room together).

	hey doc, whaddya say? ;>

    
    I've heard that the Westford has good rooms.
    
    

	Doc, you snob!

	Karen, who ate popcorn for lunch

	Amos, who is the whiney geek you're talking about?

>>    	please show me, for example, your vast notes on mosel wines ddes.

	i don't write "vast notes" in this wine topic or in the WINE
	conference.  of the 15 notes i have entered here, prior to .155,
	exactly two have been in regard to French wines.  Two have
	recommended California wines, one has been anti-Gallo wines, and
	the rest have been general chat.
    

	And she has NEVER recommended wine-in-a-box!

    She will, oh yes, someday, she will.  

    
    
    no no, deb...you hear that the westford has comfortable beds...
              
    

    
    I've heard that, too.
    
    

    I broke a bed at the Boxboro Host by simply siting down on it. Must
    have been the minks who had the room before I did.

    di,, when you and mark get that room, lemme know so that  I	 may
    send you two a bottle of GOOD french wine rather than you chancing
    being stuck with the plonk Erik drinks.
    
    oh, and Erik, by your own admission, you have nothing invested here,
    and we aren't soliciting new members....
    

    
    I have to say that I had a bottle of 1993 Louis Jadot Beaujolais Villages
    recently that was very disappointing.
    
    It was thin and blah.  I usually find LJBV to be rather nice, you know,
    undemanding but tasty.  I could have sworn, tho, that someone had
    yanked the cork on this one, poured it out, and replaced it with
    Gallo-By-The-Gallon, or some such.
    
    Was 1993 a bad year, or what happened?

re: "You favor French wines because of your heritage"

I guess I'm in big trouble then, what with my penchant for Blue Nun.

    
    What a riot.  "Poetic license" excuses subbing "Quelle surprendre"
    for "Quelle surprise?"  It's a pretty strange poet that goes 
    around saying things like "What to surprise."  ;-)
    
    Come on, Erik.  Be a man and admit you were clueless (unless you're
    one of them thar senoritas that Jack was talking about 
    yesterday.)  :-)
    
    
    
    Rob
    

    To put Erik's diatribe in perspective, let's remind ourselves that he's
    the guy who went into a swank restaurant with a huge wine list and
    incorrectly concluded they only had half a dozen or so white wines out
    of the 400 or so listed. It pays to know your appellations, Erik, if
    you aren't going to use the sommelier for his expertise. Instead Erik
    and his partner's choices sent the sommelier into apoplexy (admittedly
    from Erik's account it sounds like the guy overreacted, but it made for
    an immensely funny story.) Anyway, the upshot of the experience was
    that Erik was outraged that this restaurant specializing in french
    cuisine did not have any german wines on its list. I think the episode
    scarred him for life; at least it seems that way given his seething
    hatred for all things french or even french tolerant.
    
     So, Erik, I'm still waiting for your recommendation for the great
    german gewurztraminer. Oh, and you asked what we had: house sizzling
    platter, shrimp with cashews, general tsou's chicken, orange beef, pork
    lo mein.

    
    So...how 'bout them lousy non-French wines, eh?
    
    Aren't they sumpthin'?
    

    Best wine I had yesterday wasn't french.

       Mz Deb --
       
       Louis Jadot isn't a vintner; he buys gazillions of grapes from
       local farmers and then makes and bottles the stuff.  Usually ok,
       but not the same level of quality as a mise en bouteille dans le
       bain, or something like that.  While a bojh needs to go from the
       bottle to the belly without undue delay, the 1993 shuddna crapped
       out so soon.
       
       A Salvapiana over the weekend was an unusually happy surprise.

    
    
    >>>Personally, I don't find Jadot's Beaujolais to be as good as Georges
        Duboeuf's. And I would recommend the 94s over the 93s. Value pick:
        Fleurie flower label from Duboeuf. Gobs of fruit. Lots more flavor.
    
    
    
    	FRANCOPHILE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
      
    
    	-mike
    

    
    re: .216
    
     Yes, but mz_deb? How red was it???
    
    :) :)
    

   .224 you leetle burgundy-chugging troublemaker. ;>

    
    
    >>>.224 you leetle burgundy-chugging troublemaker. ;>
    
     Moi??? I would never think of doing such a thing!!! 
    
    <the troublemaker part!!! I chug burgundy every chance I get>  ;-)
    
    
    	-mike
    

    he doesn't chug, he sips. But with the pinky firmly against the glass.
    :-)

       Has he not yet learned why stemware have stems?

    
    
    >>>he doesn't chug, he sips. But with the pinky firmly against the
    glass.
    
      Yeah, I'm not into this dainty pinky crap!!! :-)
    
    
    -mike
    

  .231  a sissy, he ain't.

    
    >>>Has he not yet learned why stemware have stems?
    
      Yep sure have, I was civilized by the French but don't tell Erik
    that he'll call me a FRANCOPHILE!!! Which I'll be quite happy to
    admit to. Anybody want a glass of Bonne Mares??
    
    -mike
    

>>       Has he not yet learned why stemware have stems?

	a quick perusal of his cellar and you could answer
	your own question. ;>

    >Anybody want a glass of Bonne Mares??
    
     <arm twisted behind back> Oooh! oooh! Alright! :-)

       
       Mais, zut alors, why is his pinky on ze glass, messieurs-dames?
       
       If ze pinky is on ze glass, and not on ze stem, ze essential
       bodily fluids zat swirl through ze pinky will warm up ze wine,
       n'est-ce pas?

    
    	RE: -1
    
    	Wow, I never thought of that.  Learn something new every day,
    	and this must be a joyous day because I learned something from
    	none other than Mr. Topaz.
    
    	[I am not a wine connoisseur.]
    

    ze stem is part of ze glass. when I said glass, I didn't mean "bowl,"
    else I would have said bowl. Sometimes it's rested on the stem,
    sometimes on the base. The glass covers both bases. :-)

	besides, he's chuggin' burgundy. zit matter if he warms it?

>>	besides, he's chuggin' burgundy. zit matter if he warms it?

	;> prolly wouldn't be in the glass long enough, any-hoo.

	If they made squash wine I could enjoy it. But until they do, I can't. 

       re .238:
       
       ze doctaire has a point.

	zen he zchud ver un hat.

    Personally, I like to use a straw but that's just me.  Kind of turns a 
    Box o' wine into a great big juice box.  

    
    
    Rep.  Di
    
    
    >>>;> prolly wouldn't be in the glass long enough, any-hoo.
    
     NOW, cut that out!!! You're giving away all of my secrets!!! ;-)
    
    -mike
    
    
    
    

    
    
    >>> Box o' wine 
    
    
      Ok, now let's get this straight it's not Box o' wine, it's
    
    		Chateau Cardboard!!!!
    
    
      <btw, that's not the dreaded French it's that bloodly Aussie!!!> ;-)
    
    -mike
    

       
       This whole conference is sometimes a Box o' Whine

    
    Recipe for squash wine:
    
    	One pair of panty hose, (no insinuations).
       	large squash
    	Sugar
    	
    Cut a leg off the panty hose
    Cut the top off the squash
    Scoop out the seeds and pith
    Insert squash into pantyhose leg
    Fill halfway with sugar, and top up with water, replace top
    Tie the top and hang it up somewhere warm for a few months
    Put a jar underneath and poke a hole in the bottom.
    Squash wine drips out, add more water
    Label and Cellar.
    
    Colin
    
    
    Disclaimer:  Has a bouquet like a dingo's armpit and tastes like crap.
    
    
    

    Estancia Meritage 1990, a bordeaux style blend of cabernet sauvignon
    and merlot from the Alexander Valley. Delicious- fully mature, flavors
    of red fruit and chocolate. At peak. Drink up. Its well balanced
    flavors were a perfect accompaniment to last night's meal: chicken
    cacciatore. Only problem was the bottle seemed about 2 glasses too
    small. :-)

    What`s your opinion of Pomagne? I remember winning a bottle or 2 at
    the local Donkey Derby when younger.
    
    

    never 'eard of it.

    I always wondered what they did with all that donkey pee

  .252 at least it's not going to waste.  that's re-ass-urine, isn't it?

    
    	Don't quit your day job, Lady Di.
    

    Please don't, we _need_ the puns.

>>    	Don't quit your day job, Lady Di.
    

	okay, please promise to be my pun mentor from
	now on, shawn.  i'm counting on you.

  .252 at least it's not going to waste.  that's re-ass-urine, isn't it?
    
    Very quixotic.  Don quixotic, even.

 .257  good one, and i realize i'm going out on a limb here,
       since i didn't have time to consult with Shawn first.

    
    	I didn't say to stop, I just told you not to rely on them for
    	regular income.
    
    	8^)
    

	Anyone have luck with Mirassou Chardonnay, 1992 limited edition ?

	According to the sign at the liquor store, this wine was
	a gold medal winner, and was rated 92/100 points.

	We were not impressed, in fact, my husband wouldn't even
	drink it.  However, the cork was extremely dry when I opened
	the wine, and it fell apart all over the counter when I removed
	it from the corkscrew.  Could the bottle have been bad ?

	Karen

    
    The bottle was probably fine Karen.... I would venture the wine inside
    it was bad...
    
    ;)
    

     I've had Mirassou wines before; most were undistinguished. the best
    was a pinot blanc, harvest reserve.
    
    >	According to the sign at the liquor store, this wine was
    >	a gold medal winner, and was rated 92/100 points.
    
     By whom? Some reviewers, Wine and Spirits being among them, appear to
    have an indecipherable algorithm for awarding points. One magazine, and
    I think it was Wine and Spirits but it may have been the Wine
    Enthusiast, rated Napa Ridge cabernet sauvignon an astronomical 94 or
    95 points, and awarded Chateau Montelena's 91 cab only 88 points. these
    wines are not even comparable; the Napa Ridge is nice and a good value
    at ~$8, but is certainly no match for the ~$20 Montelena, which will
    only begin to show its stuff in another 5-10 years.
    
    >	We were not impressed, in fact, my husband wouldn't even
    >	drink it.  
    
     Hmm. This would lead me to believe that there's something wrong with
    the bottle. Their wines, while usually undistinguished, usually offer
    nothing to offend, either.
    
    >    However, the cork was extremely dry when I opened
    >	the wine, and it fell apart all over the counter when I removed
    >	it from the corkscrew.  
    
     Sounds like it was stored standing up, allowing the cork to dry out
    and air to contaminate the wine. This frequently happens to grocery
    store bought wines, which rarely are afforded the care required. It was
    probably oxidized. If you have any of the wine left you can return it
    to the retailer (especially if you still have the receipt); most
    reputable retailers will gladly replace the bottle.

                              A Soapbox Wine Event
                              (or, I've Had Oenuff)

     Wine likers are invited to a Soapbox Event:

     What's it      In response to underwhelming demand, a PseudoBash is
     all about?     planned for Soapbox devotees of the fermented grape,
                    or possibly demented fermentees of Soapbox.  In
                    other words, a BYO wine tasting.

     OK, what's     BYOB to share/BYOG to use: As a guideline, the retail
     the format?    value of the B should be between $12-18, and the
                    retail value of the G should be between $.99 and
                    $65.00.  Wines can be from any country of origin, but
                    the glasses must, of course, be French.

      Details:      Sunday, October 15, at 1:30pm.  The Event will be
      when and      held in pleasant yet not overly-ostentatious digs in
      where?        Billerica, MA, about 15 minutes from ZKO, 20 minutes
                    from the Littleton sites, or about 5 minutes from
                    the Burlington Mall. 

      How do I      Capacity is limited to about 8-10.  To be included in
      get an        the Event, send mail to CALLME::MR_TOPAZ.  Please
      invite?       respond only if you will be able to attend.  

      All booze    
      and no food?  Appropriate comestibles will be provided.
       

    >Wines can be from any country of origin, but
    >the glasses must, of course, be French.
    
     Sorry, but Betsy and I will be taking Austrian glasses. Hope this
    isn't overly problematic. ;-)

  Austriophile!!

    
    
    >>>Sorry, but Betsy and I will be taking Austrian glasses. Hope this
        isn't overly problematic. ;-)
    
    
      As long as nothing happens to your Reidel's !!!  ;-)
    
    

I've got a bottle of really rough cheap red wine lying around downstairs
that I'll probably drink later on, interspersed with some cans of fizzy
lager.  Of course I'll drink it out of a pint glass (the lager goes in
the pint and a half glass) (briefly), wine glasses are for gurlies and
queeahs.

Chris.

  .267  op, he's gonna do ka-kas and leave, just as the doctah said
	he would.  ta-ta, erik.

    
    
    Twas thinking the same thing, Di.  He had to pat hisself on the back
    first though, with regards to where he's been.  We've seen this style
    before, but this has taken it to the extremes so as to almost be a
    comeny skit.  He can't be serious, can he????

    oops, comedy.

	>>He can't be serious, can he????

	that's the sad part - he seems to be.  he never listens to
	what we say about our wine tastes, he just keeps going on
	like a broken record, as if he's the last great hope for the
	German wine biz in America.  hoho. ;>

    
    	Erik, you're taking this way too seriously.  This is SOAPBOX,
    	not a U.N. meeting.
    

  .274  Right.  PLUS, let's assume for a second that I, for example,
	liked _only_ '88 Brunello di Montalcino.  So effing what!?
	That would be my prerogative.  It's not true, but what if
	it were?  WGAS?
 
	sheesh. ;>

    
    	Oooh, I love it when you get this way.
    

    
    I think what we have here is the rare case of someone who
    seems to get under Lady Di's skin in an altogether not
    good way. So far, she's given Erik a right tonking, as
    another boxer so eloquently described such events. And
    I'd say Erik has displayed about as much savvy as our
    beloved Kirby Hoover when it comes to picking his fights.

    -b

  .277 i simply hate being accused of anything that's not true.
       admittedly, this isn't up there with racism or indifference,
       but what the heck - wine's a passion with me too. 
       wines from all over the freakin' place. ;>

    
    It's like anything else, what you prefer is fine by me as long as it
    doesn't effect me or anyone else.  What was the Timothy Leary saying? 
    something like, "Do you own thing as long as you don't put it on my
    bag".

    well, erik's problem (one of many,  i'm sure from his noting style)
    seems to be that it's ok for HIM to have differing tastes in wine,
    but heaven forbid others have their own tastes/opinions, especially
    when the wine in question is french.....in other words, in a typically
    male fashion, he must be right.  blech.

    
    
    I'll send along a bottle of MadDog 20/20 to the tasting... you all will
    give me an opinion of the "wine" after you taste it??
    

    
    >>>I'll send along a bottle of MadDog 20/20 to the tasting...
    
    
      If you do that I will personally hire Mz_Deb to shove you into
    a locked closet and throw away the key!!!  ;-)
    
    -mike
    

    I can't believe anyone has the energy to be this much of a crybaby
    about wine. It's truly mindboggling. What a waste of energy. Contrary
    to his claims of it being "too energy-draining for me," he seems to
    have boundless energy to belabor the point, moaning about the
    unfairness of it all. 
    
    >(don't have time to look up which replies these were, but they stuck 
    >like pins in my side all weekend and fumed and fuelled parts of my 
    >bike ride).
    
     Glad we could help! I'm sure lucky Jack had no idea how much you'd
    appreciate his comments. The absolute BEST part, of course, is the fact
    that Jack wasn't saying that "anything non-french is immediately the
    same thing as Blue Nun" at all. You oaf; he was being serious. He
    really does have a case of Blue Nun, and he really does like it! You,
    in fact, are insulting his taste by bemoaning the nonexistent
    comparison the way you have.
    
>  I stick by my comments that someone who only drinks and writes about french
>  wines is not a "clever lad" but is displaying french chauvinism instead.
    
     There's not a single person who fits that description in here. Not
    one. You are beating the straw man senseless, Donny Quixote, but
    somehow the windmill is still winning. don't let that deter you,
    though. You are nothing if not entertaining.
    
>  wine drinking culture, the wine lists in restaurants here, and the
>  availability of wines in local catalogues and stores are all strongly
>  francocentric and mono-cultural.  
    
     So you are saying that the wine drinking public's taste is wrong, eh?
    Oh, well. Suffer, I guess.
    
>  Please excuse me if I don't listen too hard to you all group of 'educated'
>  wine experts and culture here that says non-french is 'plonk' 
    
     Total BS, as per usual. Nobody here has said or even intimated that.
    But you continue braying as if that were the party line being repeated
    incessantly by unthinking dittoheads. Wrong. You are LYING. You are
    making this up. You are full of fertilizer.
    
     Scurry off like the vermin you are; you've made your deposit. Oh, and
    you might want to think about getting a life while you're at it.

    
    Interesting how Erik says he done and then has to pipe in with another
    reply.....I wonder why that is?

              eh?
	      /
	  oO)-.
	 /__  _\       
	 \  \(  |      
	  \__|\ {                                             
	  '  '--'   
    
    

    
    	HE SAID,
    
    	INTERESTING HOW ERIK SAYS HE DONE AND THEN HAS TO PIPE IN WITH
    	ANOTHER REPLY ... I WONDER WHY THAT IS.
    

    
    re: .282
    
    Mike...
    
    Don't you want to taste it first???
    
    :)
    

    
    Unfortunately, Mike, Andy did NOT appear wearing white shoes on Sunday,
    and I had no excuse to lock him in the closet 8^/.
    
    Better luck next time 8^).
    

    He sends a bottle of MD 20/20 to the tasting and no further excuse will
    be necessary...

    
    
    But I did switch the TP...
    
    and she didn't bite at the bait...
    

    
    Send the MD20/20 in case someone needs to start the barbecue.

    -b

    
    Now now Andy, as I told you, I'd never be so impolite as to switch
    someone else's TP around in their home.  I do have a modicum of
    gentility.
    
    
    
    
    ...stop laughing!

    
    >I do have a modicum of gentility.
    
    While having thoughts of stuffing certain individuals into closets, I
    suppose???
    
    
    
    
       Yes, I'm laughing!!! Hysterically!!!!!
    
    :) :)
    

    
    
    Rep .267 Erik
    
    >>>I'm free to
      spend my time with my own group of multi-cultural wine style
    appreciative friends.  We are free to choose our own friends as 
    well as our wines. I'm sorry, but "Blue Nun" and "plonk" indeed....
    
      By the way, these will be easy points to score here in your
    knock-down fight scorecards, I will not be back after this point 
    to defend myself, it's too energy-consuming with no payback.  
    This weekend gave me a different perspective of how I want to 
    spend my time.  Your mileage may vary. 
    Enjoy...
    
    
	Well Erik, I say good riddance to you. I grow very tired of 
    your francophile strawmen anyways. You can't for some reason
    accept the fact different people have different tastes. I asked
    you start a discussion of German wines over in the Wine conference
    and all you did was to continue to setup your francophile straw
    men. Too bad you might have had something interesting to say. 
    The next bottle of '83 Moselle I have, I'll drink a toast to your
    stupidity.
    
    -mike
    
    
    oh yes, my cave has usa, australian, german, spanish, italian, 
    portuguese, and french wines in it so i guess that makes me one of
    your francophile strawmen. since you're the only one who seems
    to believe they are "multi-cultural" around here.
                                   

    
    
    >>>Unfortunately, Mike, Andy did NOT appear wearing white shoes on
    Sunday, and I had no excuse to lock him in the closet 8^/.
    
      Well according to my multi-kultural wine tasting handbook, anybody
    bringing/sending MD 20/20 is to be shoved into a locked closet and
    the key is to be disposed of. Whether he/she is wearing white shoes or
    or not. I figured since you have so much experience working for/with
    the white shoe police we could hire you to enforce the wine tasting
    rules. I would offer suitable payment of course, I realize you can
    be bought but you are not cheap!!!  ;-)
    
    
    -mike
    

    
    We'll talk!
    
    

    
    re: .296
    
    >I realize you can be bought but you are not cheap!!!  ;-)
    
    She certainly isn't!!!!
    
    How's the new perfume deb????? ;) ;)
    

    hold out for the meursault-perrieres, Debra. don't let him get away
    with a mere pernand-vergelesses.

    
    
    DOOOOONNNN'TTTTT DOOOOOO THHHHAAAAATTTTT

    
    Andy, I smell heavenly.  I thank you most sincerely 8^).
    
    

    
    
    Will you wear it next time you try to stuff me in a closet??
    
    
    

    
    I was thinking of dabbing a little MadDog 20/20 on my pulse points next
    time 8^).
    
    

    
    True story time:

    When I was in the Pathworks group, they sent me to Cannes for
    DECUS. I awoke one night with the most god-awful case of cotton
    mouth, so I took a 6 ounce bottle of orange juice from the minibar.
    When the hotel bill came in, I noticed that it cost over $5 for
    a 6 oz bottle of orange juice. Not great value.

    It was outrageously expensive to eat there. So, I put the max
    per diem amount for each day on my expense report, figuring
    it cost at least that much and that I would make up the difference.

    The group's financial wiz called the group secretary, asking
    that I write a memo indicating how I managed to spend the exact
    per diem amount each and every day. So, write a memo I did.

    In the memo I included the following text (which is paraphrased,
    but close enough for jazz): "Please note item ### on the hotel
    bill; it is for a 6 oz bottle of orange juice. At over $5,
    it is approaching the cost, per ounce, of French perfume, although
    it is doubtful that dabbing orange juice behind one's ears would
    produce the same results."

    The expense report soared through the signature loop without
    further question...

    -b

    
    	I think "Reader's Digest" would like that for "Life In These
    	United States" or "All In a Day's Work".
    

   .304  gee, i wish my French perfume were anywhere near that cheap.
	 (i know, i know - francophile!!)

    
    	And what's wrong with German perfume, hmmmm??
    

    .305
    
    Agreed re .304.  It's a classic.

    
>>    	And what's wrong with German perfume, hmmmm??

    why it's too sweet, of course. ;>
    

    
    Chuckle. No, make that guffaw. Your sense of humor is on a
    decided upswing.

    -b

    .304, .305
    
    Submit it...Reader's Digest pays $400 for stories these days.

    
    
    >>>hold out for the meursault-perrieres, Debra. don't let him get away
        with a mere pernand-vergelesses.
    
     Actually, I was thinking a Chevalier-Montrachet, Mz_Deb's closet
    shoving work is definitely Grand Cru quality!!!  ;-)
    
     

    
    re:.274

    > 	Erik, you're taking this way too seriously.  This is SOAPBOX,
    > 	not a U.N. meeting.

    eeerrr....you mean U.N. meetings are serious?  They take that brappola
    that they spout seriously !?!?!?

    re:.303

    > I was thinking of dabbing a little MadDog 20/20 on my pulse points next
    > time 8^).

    hhhmmmm... I could learn to like MadDog 20/20.... after all there ARE
    fringe benefits... ;->

    >     Actually, I was thinking a Chevalier-Montrachet,
    
     That's junk, Mz Deb. Don't let him get away with it. I'll drink that,
    and you can have a meursault-perrieres like I said. ;-)

    
    
    >>>     That's junk, Mz Deb. Don't let him get away with it. I'll drink
    that, and you can have a meursault-perrieres like I said. ;-)
    
    
     Mz Deb, don't believe him for a minute, as usual he's trying to get
    all of the good stuff for himself!!!    ;-)
    
    
    -mike
    
    

    
      Dear, Mr. T - I'll come, if there's still an opening in your select
     little group.  I consider selecting a vintage for this a personal
     crisis.  If I earn a thumbs-down, my Box reputation will be tattered.
    
      bb

       Select little group?  Not at all -- it's for anyone who enjoys
       wine and trying new ones. 
       
       And I couldn't imagine a thumbs-down for you or anyone else.  A
       cold, blank stare, maybe, but certainly not a thumbs-down (which,
       while holding the stem, could create all sorts of ancillary
       problems).

    >    Mz Deb, don't believe him for a minute, as usual he's trying to get
    >    all of the good stuff for himself!!!    ;-)
    
     Quiet, Mike! :-)
    
     He's right, Debra. Chevalier-Montrachet is as much a step above
    Meursault-Perrieres as Meursault-Perrieres is above
    Pernand-Vergelesses (which I happen to like quite a bit.) C-M is also
    mucho $$$, especially from a good year.

    
    >>>C-M is also mucho $$$, especially from a good year.
    
     Well if you hire the best you expect to pay top shelf prices. :-)
    

    What's that sucking sound? Put your mouth to a bottle, and you won't
    have any need for a corkscrew...

    
    
    >>>What's that sucking sound? Put your mouth to a bottle, and you won't
        have any need for a corkscrew...
    
      Nope, no sucking up here!!! I'm just a great believer in the old
    saying, you get what you pay for!!!  ;-)
    
      -mike
    

    >I'm just a great believer in the old saying, you get what you pay for!!!  
    >;-)
    
     Alas, that great saying is slightly incorrect. You have to pay for
    what you get, but you don't always get what you pay for.

    
>>     Alas, that great saying is slightly incorrect. You have to pay for
>>    what you get, but you don't always get what you pay for.

	Fortunately, you occasionally get more than what you pay for,
	in my experience.

 >>  Select little group?  Not at all -- it's for anyone who enjoys
 >>    wine and trying new ones. 
       

	Are we now to assume Mr. Braucher is among "Those Who Count" ?

       
       You alone are responsible for the assumptions that you make.

	<-- ooh, where's that memorable quotes topic ?

    .328 is a solicitation and is forbidden by PP&P 6.54.  Mods, please
    remove it.

    
    	Oh, sure ... I bet you wouldn't have complained if NVW made
    	FRENCH wine.
    

    
    P&Pphile!
    
    -b

    .330
    
    Zut alors, mon ami!  Comment pouvez-vous dire une telle chose?

	How does that go against the P&P?

	Brian, you're encouragable! :-)

    
    It's true. I'm not easy, but I am encouragable.

    -b

    Glen, it goes against P&P because it solicits readers to write
    requesting the reinstatement of funding for the Nashoba Valley Winery.

	Thanks, Dick. I agree with ya. 

    >rewritten to pass the P&P censors
    
    you may care to note that yours is the second solicitation 'censored'
    this week - so don't take it personally, if you were.  The other was in
    21.1504, by Jim Sadin.  He rewrote his, too.
    
    DougO

Since I live in that area; A lot of people (residents) are complaining that
it will be "THE END OF THE ORCHARD(or the world, or something)" I suggested
that if folks really want to preserve it and prevent housing that
300 residents each buy a share at $1k and "bail it out". local answer
to local problem. 
One would think I had suggested they sell their mothers or molest children or 
something. :-} 

They don't want it changed but they only want "state" money. those I talked to
don't want to risk theirs and don't think others would. 

If you want a solution to a local problem make it a local solution

Amos

    .337 is STILL a solicitation:
    
    > HOWEVER, THERE IS STILL HOPE IF YOU SEND EMAIL ***TODAY***!!!
    
    Moderastors, please delete it until Erik sees fit to remove all
    solicitation from it.

>>         <<< Note 43.341 by MKOTS3::RAUH "I survived the Cruel Spa" >>>

>>    new shirt
>>    new tie
>>    new pants
>>    old knickers....;(

    these are Bulgarian wines, are they?
    

    oooops.... wrong file!!!;((
    
    

 Right file, wrong topic?

    Whaaa!! is that a good enough whine?:)

    
    Don't the Bulgarians make a wine called "Bulls Blood" (Egri Bikaver
    label)?  Whatever, it's the only wine I know that will stand up to a
    Beef curry. 

	I was thinking... about this wine tasting event...

	if one who is not considered one of "Those who count" rsvp's
	to the invitation, does he become one of the 8-10 allotted guests ?

	and if so, does he then become one of the "Those who count" (or 
	is he just on of "Those who is counted" ?

    RSVP, Karen, and find out.

	I would, but I have to wash my hair that day.

>    Don't the Bulgarians make a wine called "Bulls Blood" (Egri Bikaver
>    label)?  Whatever, it's the only wine I know that will stand up to a
>    Beef curry. 

Hungarovin.

/john

    >	I would, but I have to wash my hair that day.
    
     Your loss.

    
>>     Your loss.

	prolly ours too.

    >prolly ours too.
    
     Yes, but unlike her, we can do nothing about it (except try to
    browbeat her into coming.) ;-)

	Thank you, di !

	The doctah's working on me... (browbeating, that is)

       
       re .354:
       
       One can only hope that he is successful.

>>	The doctah's working on me... (browbeating, that is)

	allow me to pummel you (in a lady-like fashion) in the
	general vicinity of your forehead.  there.  i hope that
	didn't hurt.

	Thanks.  I've forgotten all about that headache now.

    How about some bludgeoning?

    I like that word, it's a very woody word.

	I suspect that'd cure my headaches in a more permanent fashion.

    excerpt from Konrad Ejbich's review of Fess Parker 1992 Syrah, tasted
    at a restaurant called Boba:
    
    >I was floored. This was an incredibly concentrated, fantastically rich 
    >wine, oozing blackberry and black cherry flavors. Had I not been in a 
    >public place I might have sipped it with one hand under the table. I 
    >swear I could still taste it as I drove home. (For a cold shower, we 
    >trust. -- Uptight eds.)
    
     I think he liked it. :-)

    
    Fess Parker?  The Daniel Boone Fess Parker?
    
    
    Is that the upscale name for Boone's Farm 8^)?
    
    

       Fess Parker was Davy Crockett (Born on a mountaintop in Tennessee,
       Greenest green in the land of the free, &c.).
       
       Hmm, maybe he was Dannel Boone, too.

    
    Oops!  Guess that was before my time 8^).
    
    Is that the Davy Crockett Fess Parker, then?
    
    

    The very same. And he makes damn fine wine in Santa Barbara county.

    How many people had a Davy Crockett mattress, with scenes of Davy
    Crockett in action on the mattress?

    
      Help - Chris Ralto !  I thought Fess Parker played Dan'l Boone ?
    
      bb

Fess Parker played Davy Crockett in a Disney three part movie. Played on the
"Wonderful World of Disney" on Sunday nights.

Of course that was back in the days of steam-powered TVs so most of you are 
too young to remember. :-}

Amos

    Hah, if there was a horse in it, I didn't watch it...
    ...but I think that Fess Parker played both characters.
    
    Back to the books, tonight.
    
    Chris

 I also believe Fess Parker played Dan'l Boone.





 Jim

Chris - why don't you just bring your reference books to work so we
wouldn't have to spend the day in anticipation of your solving our 
tv trivia questions?  I just know I'm going to have a hard time
falling asleep tonight pondering the question "was it Davy Crockett
or Daniel Boone?"  I tell you, the "Everglades" or "Gentle Ben"
question had me up all night!

    Having just visited the Fess Parker winery last month, I can report
    that he is still around 6'7" tall, but a bit thicker than he was during
    the tv show; white hair- but still the same voice.  Our seven year-old
    was practically speechless when this huge man walked up to him, stuck
    out a hand the size of a basketball, and introduced himself- "Hi, I'm
    Fess Parker, what's your name?"  And the '92 Syrah is indeed to die
    for- we'd enjoyed it at a smorgasboard in Solvang the night before, and
    took four more bottles home.  We also got to taste the not-yet-for-sale
    '92 Syrah Reserve- which Stace liked better.  I don't know if it'll
    open up as beautifully as the regular '92 does, though, so I'm
    reserving judgement.
    
    DougO

    re: books at work
    
    Good idea... actually it's embarrassing to admit on the occasions
    when I have to go to the books, though.  I'm supposed to know all
    this stuff off the top of my head!  :-)
    
    I do have a sitcom book here somewhere, but it won't help in this
    case.  For now, I'll stick to my dimly-recalled memory that he
    played both roles, but I'll verify it.
    
    re: .371
    
    >> "Hi, I'm Fess Parker, what's your name?"
    
    Hey, maybe I'll try that line someday... nahhhh.
    
    Chris

Does anyone drink port?  What makes port port?
Is it rot gut?   

Would someone recommend a good port?

  .373  if you come across any bottles that say "Fonseca"
	or "Graham" on the label, do not drink them, i caution
	you.  send them directly to me, and i will dispose
	of them safely.  nnttm.

    
      I drink port.  It is for after dinner.  I like the "tawny" ports.
     If you aren't up to brandy, port is a good choice.  It's not exactly
     what is meant by a dessert wine.  Spanish stuff is good.
    
      bb

    
    Port, walnuts and a ripe Stilton cheese.  Food of the gods.  Fonseca.
    Try a Madeira before dinner too.

Fonseca it is...thanks...i'm in the market
for a new taste.

.377 it would be a happy coincidence if you were
     also independently wealthy.  

    or indescribably patient.

  .379 ;> right.  

    Fonseca?  Good, but I like Taylor Fladgate better.  Very personal
    thing, taste in Ports.

  .381 oh yes, of course, there are lots of extraordinary
       ports out there - fonseca's just one of the better names.
       i have a couple of fonsecas in the basement that i'm just
       hoping i live long enough to drink. 8^{  
       and a '77 smith-woodhouse that oughta be purty good soon.

    I'd not mind helping you evaluate that Smith-Woodhouse, oh, say, in
    about 5 years.

  .383  you're too good to me.  yes you are.

       How can there be decent wine from Portugal?
       
       If you want to drink that sort of thing, try a Pineau des
       Charentes, from France.

    Francophile bigot.

>       How can there be decent wine from Portugal?

I like a little Lancers with my Blue Nun now and again.

    Both now come in the economy size E-Z pour pouch.  Never hurts to have
    a little Lancers on tap for when unexpecting company drops by.  

    
    	unexpecting company ?
    
    	As in "not in a family way" ?
    

    
    If we're talking about wine in a box, it should be unSUSpecting company
    8^).
    

How independently wealthy?  I don't think I could buy
a jury but I might be able to spring for a nice bottle
of port...

So how much is that Fonseca in the window?

    
    	I knew that!
    
     I was just wondering if Brian was reading too many Surgeon General
    	  warning labels!

    About $300 for a TAP ticket from Boston to Faro or Oporto and you can
    taste all you want.  They're very generous.  A halfway decent bottle of
    this year's stuff costs about $18 and you only have to keep it for
    about 21 years. 

    Actually, no, I wasn't but it fits also.  What a clever, clever lad I
    am.  No, it was aimed directly at our own Mz_Deb as in "for those that do
    not expect much in a wine."  Unsuspecting works too :-). 

| <<< Note 43.373 by LANDO::OLIVER_B >>>

| Would someone recommend a good port?

	There is a real good one in Florida. :-)

    Can anyone recommend a good port-o-let?

    >What makes port port?
    
     Port is a fortified wine from a specific area of Portugal. If it's not
    from Portugal, it's not port, regardless of what the name on the label
    says. In fact, all true port says "porto" somewhere on the label.
    
     "True, classic vintage port-- wine that needs 20-25 years before being
    ready for drinking -- should have an almost overwhelming structure in
    its youth. The colour should remain as blue-black as indelible ink for
    several years, the wine needs a tannic backbone of super-heavy-weight
    proportions, and it should have a grip as tight as the handshake of the
    Commendatore's statue in Don Giovanni. Above all it must have fruit:
    Very, very ripe, very, very conentrated, and in enormous abundance."
    
    	-- Clive Coates, M.W.
   
     That would be a description of vintage port, one of the many styles of
    port. It's chief distinguishing factor is that it requires many years
    to be ready to drink, whereas ruby and tawny and Late Bottled Vintage
    (LBV) and Port of the Vintage are ready to drink on release.

    Port-au-lait, a new gacktail.

    Okay, a question for our wine experts...
    
    I'm looking for a good red wine for under $5.
    
    Okay, just kidding. 8^)  I'm looking for a good red wine for $20 or
    less.  It should be slightly sweet, not too dry, and have a nice fruity
    flavor.  
    
    I realize this question has probably reared its head in this topic
    previously, but I don't normally read this topic and I don't have time
    to go re-read 400 notes. 
    
    An ignorant question:  Upon perusing through a store, I ran across
    bottles of wine costing $400.  Now, I certainly realize that such
    things exist, but can a $400 bottle of wine really taste $380 better
    than a good $20 bottle of wine? (yes, this is a very relative question-
    perhaps some of you who have tasted $400 wine can enlighten me on the
    benefits of such a high $$ beverage over a good modestly priced
    vintage)
    
    Since I prefer more expensive beers, I can partially understand, but I
    would never pay $400 for a six pack- I can't imagine there being *that*
    much difference in taste to warrent such an expense.  Of course, I have
    the poor boy mentality on this.  Perhaps if I was rich, I would think
    differently.  8^)
    
    
    -steve 

    It becomes an investment at this point doesn't it?

    <--- ahhh...I hadn't thought of that.  That's about the only thing that
    makes sense to me.

	So, if I were to give a bottle of Port as a gift (one that
	could be consumed in the next 5 years or so), what
	would be a good choice, and how much would it cost me ?

    
    > I'm looking for a good red wine for under $5.

    Wild concept, buy a case of Santa Rita 120 (about $4/bottle when you
    buy a case) and let it sit for 12-18 months.  Straight outta the case
    it's a pretty good spaghetti eatin' wine, but if you let it sit you 
    wind up with a decent wine overall... :-)

    You can make your own for under 2 bucks a bottle for premium wine kits,
    and believe me it's amazing how good these kits are.

    
    
    Circa $5. Robert Mondavi cab.  Consistently good as an every-day wine.
    
    About $18.  Pindar Mythology.  A "Lawn Guy Land" wine that I bought last
                Oct. that turned out to be very good (to my unsophisticated
                palate).                              

    >	So, if I were to give a bottle of Port as a gift (one that
    >	could be consumed in the next 5 years or so), what
    >	would be a good choice, and how much would it cost me ?
    
     Warning: I am not a big port drinker. With that in mind, I'd look for
    a bottle of '77 vintage port from Dow or Graham (~$35) or Taylor or
    Fonseca (~$55). I understand from my port drinking friends that they
    are beginning to approach readiness, and may well be drinking nicely
    within 5 years. An alternative which would definitely be ready now are
    the '70 ports from these same producers, at around $60 or so.
    
     If they are less good friends (or your budget is more modest) consider
    the Taylor Fladgate "First Estate" which is a "vintage character" port.
    I believe this is available for less than $20, and is drinkable
    immediately.

    >Circa $5. Robert Mondavi cab.  Consistently good as an every-day wine.
    
     That would be the Mondavi "Woodbridge" line. Wines under the Robert
    Mondavi label (proper) are in the $12-15 range for cabs and chards.
    An intermediately priced label is the Robert Mondavi "Coastal" series,
    at $7-9.

	nah, I wouldn't give Port to friends.  It'd be for my
	parents.

    In that case go for the '63s. "Honoring the year I was born to you two"
    or something similarly gushy. The "vintage of the century." Expect to
    pay $150 though. But they're your parents, aren't they worth it? :-)

    
    	Uh, yeah.  Sure.
    
    	(counts spare change)
    
    	what'd you say the name of that $20 Port was ?
    

>    Well, "sweet" red wine is dessert wine. Is that what you're really
>    looking for? 
    
    Not really, but I wouldn't mind locating one anyway.
    
>    Are are you simply attempting to avoid the mouth searing
>    tannins that make some young red wines difficult to drink? 
    
    Yes, this is what I'm attempting to avoid.
    
    
    -steve   

   .410  friend of mine gave me a '63 Croft from his cellar for
	 my birthday last year.  i have some awesome friends, oh 
	 yes. ;>

    Ok, whatcha gonna eat with it? 

    
      The suggestion of spending $50 for a port, when you've never had
     port before, strikes me as slightly ridiculous.  Just go to the
     liquor store, buy several inexpensive ports at 8-15 dollars, with
     good cork stoppers, and try a glass after dinner several days a
     week for a few weeks, instead of any other fruit dessert, like
     with pie.  If you don't like it at all, why go broke ?
    
      bb

>>         <<< Note 43.415 by GAAS::BRAUCHER "Frustrated Incorporated" >>>
    
>>      The suggestion of spending $50 for a port, when you've never had
>>     port before, strikes me as slightly ridiculous.

	who suggested that?

    >      The suggestion of spending $50 for a port, when you've never had
    >     port before, strikes me as slightly ridiculous.
    
     Absolutely. But when one doesn't know anything about something but
    wishes to buy some for someone who does, one may as well be presented
    with advice regarding things that this other person will appreciate.
    
    >Wine is for drinking, not for showing off
    
     I completely agree.
    
    >If you don't like it at all, why go broke ?
    
     Excellent advice. But I was presuming that the advice was to buy for
    someone who would appreciate the port. The same way I'd expect someone
    to give me help with a purchase of single malt scotch (which I don't
    drink.)
    
     /hth

 .417
>>     /hth

	i'll lay you 10-1 it doesn't. ;>

    
    re: .415
    
    My premise exactly...

     No doubt.

       yes, well, maybe it should be savonnais, I dunno.

    .422
    
    You'd prefer saponarca, perchance?

       Saponarca, perchance to dream....

thanks for all the port info, y'all.

    
    	Was there voting, and/or a clear-cut winner?
    
    	Or did you all just agree to disagree, for once?  8^)
    

    
    Caviar with wine?  Heathens.  Chilled vodka, or why bother.
    

    
    	I guess that's a pretty good start towards 'BOXer harmony.
    
    	8^)
    

    
>>    Caviar with wine?  Heathens.  Chilled vodka, or why bother.

    it was to go with the champagne.  chilled vodka wasn't on
    the agenda.
    

    
    Hey!  Who was that jerk in .429?
                      

    > Was there voting, and/or a clear-cut winner?
    
     No and no.
    
    >Or did you all just agree to disagree, for once?  8^)
    
     No. /hth :-)
    
    
     Actually, the wines were all pretty good (though I found the 78
    Bouchard a bit oxidized for my tastes). I think that the Mazzocco zin
    got a lot of favorable nods. If there were a "wine of the tasting" it
    might be that one.

    >>I think that the Mazzocco zin
    >>got a lot of favorable nods. If there were a "wine of the tasting" it
    >>might be that one.

	{beam}  i was glad the hosts liked it.  now if you could
	only _get_ the stuff out here. ;>

    
    .434
    
    Shut yer yap, Collins.
    

	I think you should all get Erik Debriae's opinion here.... his is the
only correct one. :-)

     I'm sure that Erik will weigh in with his snarling anti-francophile
    rhetoric before long.

	Mark, Mark, Mark.... you got him all wrong. He knows his wines!

    >	Mark, Mark, Mark.... you got him all wrong. He knows his wines!
    
     Unless you expect him to be able to find the whites on a menu of
    french wines. :-)

    >	Mark, Mark, Mark.... you got him all wrong. He knows his wines!
    
    Granted. But it's spelled "whines."
    
    -b

.427

Cool!  So, at one of these wine thingys you begin with the lighter
wines and shade into the heavier ones?  Sounds like you had a fine
selection of vinos.

    
    	Weight of wine is irrelevant.
    
    	Heck, I had a can of wine once that couldn't have weighed more
    	than 12 ounces but it was really good.  That is, as long as you
    	remember to wrap your hand with a napkin to avoid "heating" the
    	wine with your fingers.
    

       
       The Bill Hill California stuff that Levesque carried through the
       door and the French plonk from Wolinski both made it from one end
       of the throat to the other exceptionally well, as did the
       aforementioned Zin. 

.446  You talking bout wine or Sterno?

    
    	I think it was called "Vino de Can-O" or something like that.
    

we used to tap a harry and get this stuff called Arriba!

    
    
      Yup, a very fun wine thingo!!! Great job by the host and hostess.
    We should definitely do it again soon. Not a bad wine in the bunch
    but I thought the winner was the margaux. The prize also has to go
    to Di for the best/most stemware!!! ;-)
    
                           
    -mike
    

    I'm sorry I missed it.  I called and spoke with the lovely Mrs. Topaz
    to give my regrets.  I was at the hospital with Mum for the afternoon,
    then over to dad's to make him dinner and clean up a bit as he's
    stressed and exhausted over mother's latest illness. 

    
      I also enjoyed it until I got up to leave.  At which point, I should
     have realized I'd gone over my limit of alcohol and called home, where
     there just happened to be two sober drivers.  But I didn't.  I went
     out and started my car, weaved all over the driveway, and smacked
     Mike Wolinski's new car.  Then, too late, steadier hands called my
     house and my wife and college-student son came over and got my car
     and somebody drove me home (sorry, I don't remember the end of this).
     Infuriatingly stupid !  I only live 2-3 miles from Mr. Topaz, and I
     knew I was way over my driving limit after maybe 3-4 of the bottles.
    
      I'm hoping my insurance company sets Mike right.  I just got the
     bodywork appraised.  The guy said $1072.04, and I have a $500
     deductible.  So this mistake will cost me $500, and both Mike and me
     the aggravation of taking our cars to shops.  There is rough justice
     in this.  That is, I displayed approximately $500 worth of stupidity.
    
      Technically, I guess I didn't commit a felony, as I never got out
     of the driveway.  Is it illegal to drive legally drunk in a driveway ?
    
    
      A much chastened (and sheepish) bb
    

.454

Bummer.  

    
    
    Rep .454  Bill
    
    >>>The guy said $1072.04, and I have a $500 deductible.
    
      Puts a crimp in the wine buying budget. ;-)
    
    >>>I'm hoping my insurance company sets Mike right.
    
      The process is well underway and everything should be ok. Don't let
    it bother you too much. I'm sure your son won't let you forget about
    it anytime soon though!!! ;-)  Take care, Bill
    
    
    -mike
    

    A true bumber.

    >The guy said $1072.04, and I have a $500
    >deductible.  So this mistake will cost me $500, 
    
     This isn't typically such an expensive hobby (necessarily.)

    
      Um, pass the Gallo, Doc...
    
      bb

I cleaned up my wallet at lunch and found a review that I must have cut
out of the paper at least 1/2 a year ago:

Australia: Penfold's Koonunga Hill 1992 Shiraz Cabernet Sauvignon
($9.70,89) is a stunner with dense blackberry and plum nose with mint 
overtones and powerful extract of blackberry and cherry.  Massive
fruit for the money.

I'll hold on to the review and hope that I'm prompted to find it again next 
time I'm buying wine. I haven't had an Australian Shiraz Cabernet yet
that I didn't like.  BTW, what does the "89" after the price mean?

>I'll hold on to the review and hope that I'm prompted to find it again next 
>time I'm buying wine. I haven't had an Australian Shiraz Cabernet yet
>that I didn't like.  BTW, what does the "89" after the price mean?
    
     This is a good, affordable bottle (I assume the price is in canadian
    dollars, as this wine costs $6-7 in the states.) The 89 is a rating on
    the 100 point scale as used by some wine writers. A wine with an 89
    rating for under $10 is an exceptional bargain. (Note that numerical
    ratings are only a rough estimate and should not be used to ascertain
    the intrinsic worth of any particular wine. Ratings are somewhat
    subjective, after all, and each writer has a palate which is biased
    towards certain types of wines. Your palate may or may not be in accord
    with any particular writer- that's why the tasting notes are so
    important.)

    Latest "find" is the 1992 Powers Columbia Valley Merlot. Big, upfront
    fruit, loads of chocolate. Very ripe and unctuous. The only complaint
    is that it's a little fat; it's probably not going to be a long term
    ager. Nice value.

   re the vertical Ch. Margaux tasting ('78-'90)
   
   it was sort of what i would imagine dying and going to heaven
   would be like.

   anyways, the '86 was probably the most spectacular, imo, and will
   no doubt just keep getting better for the next million years or so.
   for drinking now, the '85 was my pick.  perfect.  also 
   noteworthy - '83, '90, and of course '82.  not a loser in the bunch.
   we were also fortunate enough to have donations, from one of the
   tasters, of '85 and '88 Pavillon Rouge, which both stood up amazingly
   well to their counterparts.  

   in short, i wouldn't make vinaigrette out of any of 'em.
   maybe you can get a more detailed review out of Paul Winalski.

   and the food at Salamander's?  just outstanding.
   had a terrific time and thought about you guys (Mark and Mike) with
   every mouthful of the elixir.  er, or at least every other one. ;>

    It's a good thing my keyboard is equipped with air bags.

    Zzzzzzzz

    
    .464
    
    Careful there Mr. Personality, you are wasting precious disk space, and
    cpu cycles. You should be ashamed of yourself!

    
    re: .464
    

    >It's a good thing my keyboard is equipped with air bags.
    
     No, your keyboard is equipped with a windbag. Slight difference. /hth

    
    
    >>>had a terrific time and thought about you guys (Mark and Mike) with
       every mouthful of the elixir.  er, or at least every other one. ;>
    
     Yeah, riiight!!! Sounds like a great evening. 
    
    -mike
    

    
>>     Yeah, riiight!!! 

	oh but it is true sir.  i really wished you guys could have
	been there.  i did get a whole set (i think) of the empty bottles.
	you guys could sniff 'em. ;>
	michael was dumping the last little bit out of them at the end.
	really making me cringe, i'll tell ya.

    
    
    >>>oh but it is true sir. 
    
     ok, I'll believe you.
    
    >>>i did get a whole set (i think) of the empty bottles.
            you guys could sniff 'em. ;>
    
     gee, thanks!!!! ;-)
    
    >>>michael was dumping the last little bit out of them at the
       end. really making me cringe, i'll tell ya.
    
     I suppose even the dregs of Ch. Margaux aren't too bad. 
    
    -mike
    

    
                       WINE SNOBS CAN'T CLAIM SOUR GRAPES
                                  By Dave Berry
 
             If  you  want  to  become a rich, pretentious snot - and who
        doesn't  -  you  should learn about wine.  Alternatively, you can
        buy  polo  ponies,  but  the  wine approach is better because you
        won't  have  to  spend your weekends shoveling huge quantities of
        polo-pony  waste  out  of  the  rec  room.    Also,  you  can  be
        pretentious  about  wine  almost  anywhere,  whereas  your  finer
        restaurants and opera houses generally do not admit polo ponies.
 
             The study of wine is called "oenology," which sounds like an
        unnatural sex act.
 
             POLICE OFFICER: Your honor, we caught this person committing
        oenology with a parking meter.
 
             JUDGE: Lock him up.
 
             Some people believe wine is still made by peasants who crush
        the  grapes  with  their  bare  feet,  leaving toenails and other
        disgusting, disease-ridden peasant-foot debris in the wine.  This
        is,  of  course,  nonsense.   Today's winemakers crush the grapes
        with   modern,   hygenic  machines  and  add  the  disease-ridden
        peasant-foot  debris  later.    The end product is a delicate and
        complex  collection  of  subtly  interacting  chemicals  that, if
        bottled  properly, aged just right and decanted carefully, rarely
        tastes as good as cream soda.
 
             Which leads us to two critical facts:
 
             *    Few people are really all that fond of wine.
 
             *    Almost nobody can tell the difference between good wine
        and melted popsicles without reading the label.
 
             These  facts make it much less expensive for you to become a
        pretentious wine-oriented snot because they mean you don't really
        need  to  buy good wine:  All you need is good wine bottles.  You
        can  get  these in any of the finer garbage cans.  Fill them with
        cheap  wine,  the kind that comes in three-gallon containers with
        screw-on  caps  and  names  like  Zambini Brothers Fruit Wine and
        Dessert  Topping.   Some people make a big fuss about which foods
        go  with  white wine and which with red, so buy a wine that could
        be taken for either.
 
             When  company  comes for dinner, grab a bottle at random and
        make an elaborate, French-sounding fuss about how you chose it to
        complement  your  menu.    Say:  "I chose the Escargot '63 rather
        than  the  Garcon  '72 because the bonjour of the s'il vous plait
        would  bring  out the plume de ma tante of the Cheez Whiz without
        being  too  strident for the chili dogs."  This brings up a third
        critical fact:  You can use any of this blather to describe wine.
 
             Another  good  time to be pretentious about wine is when you
        dine  out, but the trick is to do it without spending much money.
        Use this technique:  Glance scornfully at the wine list, then ask
        the  waiter  for  a  wine  you know does not exist.  Say:  "We'll
        start  with the Frere Jacques '68, preferably from the north side
        of  the  vineyard."  When he says they don't have it, look at him
        as though he had asked permission to put his finger in your nose,
        then order the most expensive wine on the list.
 
             When  he  brings  it  to  your  table, examine the label for
        spelling  and  punctuation  errors.  Next smell the cork:  If you
        don't  like  it,  order  the  waiter to take it back and splash a
        little cologne on it.
 
             Finally,  take  a  largish mouthful of wine, swill it around
        your  mouth  for a while, swallow it, tell the waiter it won't do
        and  demand another bottle.  Keep this up until you have a lot of
        trouble  getting  the  cork near enough to your nose to smell it.
        Then tell the waiter you wouldn't dream of eating at a restaurant
        with  an  inadequate  wine  cellar,  and march out in a dignified
        manner,  by  which  I  mean  without  making  advances toward the
        cigarette machine.
    

    
    
    It's Dave Barry, but who cares...!!!  I can't stop laughing long
    enough to worry about it!!!!
    

    
    	Oops, I cross-posted it and didn't even notice the mispelling.
    
    	8^)
    

    
    
    :) :) :) :) :) :)
    
    I read .471 again....
    
    I'm not going to be able to keep a straight face anymore when the
    discussion resumes in here.... :)
    

   had a '92 opus one last night.  wowee - now i know what
   all the brouhaha's about.  certainly the best american
   cabernet i've had, by far.

   but then, in true francophile-cum-pretentious-wine-snob
   fashion, that was followed up with an '85 cheval blanc.
   to die for.  has to be on the top-five-ever list.
   doctah, have you tried this stuff?  amazing fruit.
   sort of in a different league from the opus one.

   

    Wyndham Estate's 92 Shiraz (Bin 222 or something.) Pleasant, but not a
    "real" shiraz in the stuffing department. A light quaffer, which is
    heresy for the grape variety. Disappointing is probably the most
    accurate thing I can say; inoffensive is the best spin I can put on it.

    hey, I had some of that Bin 222 Shiraz a few weekends ago.  It
    was good.  Light.  Exactly what is the stuffing department?
    I ask in all seriousness.

    Stuffing refers to concentration of flavor and tannins, which are
    related to a wine's ability to age. I didn't expect a "light" wine,
    given my past experience with australian shirazes; I expected a wine
    with more flavor interest and more body. Thus the wine, while pleasant,
    was a victim of unfulfilled expectations.

    
    
    I understand the 72 Peugeot is very nice as well.
    
    

    Who here is into Ice Wine?

    I had some on Saturday, it was quite good. I hear it's quite expensive.
    Leave it to somebody to turn a disaster into a profitable business.

    Ice wine (eiswein in german) is quite expensive due to the risky nature
    of its production. half bottles (375 ml) are frequently $40-70+. I
    understand that some Ontario wineries produce some rather nice ice
    wines. Whose did you have, Inniskillin?

    >>Whose did you have, Inniskillin?

	did glenn add another personality?

    it's pretty delicious, all right.  too bad it costs mucho dinero.
    joe oppelt could go to several movies instead of drinking a bottle.

    
    
    Shoot!!! I can rent movies for a month for them dineros!!
    

    
    	Or buy a handful of CD's.
    

    My brother in-law was bottling his ice wine from a kit while I was
    brewing beer on Saturday. With the kit, the price per bottle comes to
    about $8, that's to make on premises. It seemed to me to be ready to
    drink right away, but I was told it's perfect after one month. 8^q

    Doctah, you got any of that "Thunderbird" stuff,  I heard it's top
    shelf sauce.

    
    
    Along with that there MadDog 20/20
    

    May I highly recommend Sutter Home.  A wine that truly opens the
    sluices at both ends.

What's ice wine?  Izzat like cold duck on the rocks?

       pers. 1: "You sexist swine!"
       
       pers. b: "I swine?"
       
       pers. d: "Si"
       
       pers. c: "Cy?"

    
    
    Riuniti on ice.....
    
    
    dats so friggin nice

   <<< Note 43.492 by NOTIME::SACKS "Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085" >>>

>>What's ice wine?  Izzat like cold duck on the rocks?

  no - cold duck on the rocks is what you get when the
  the Exxon Valdez is in the neighborhood.

    I thought that was tanqueray on the rocks.

    
    Oh, ice wine is sweet?  Bluuuurgh.
    
    

    Well, the one I tasted wasn't that sweet, but it has a dry finish.

     The commune of the day is St Emilion. Vintage is 1985. Hint is to sit
    the bottle upright ahead of time to avoid the dregs.

     Montevina 1993 Amador County Zinfandel $6
    
     This is a big boned bruiser in what I am finding to be the typical
    Amador style. Tannins are fairly prominent, and I don't think this will
    ever be an elefgant wine. But there is reasonable complexity for the
    price. I noted cocoa and spice, with some chunky fruit. It seemed, like
    most Amadors that I've had, to be missing fruitiness on the midpalate.
    This is decent wine, and good value, but I think I've decided that the
    Amador style is not my cup of tea.
    
     St Francis 1993 Sonoma County Cabernet Sauvignon $8
    
     This is the first 93 cab I've had. Absolutely gorgeous nose. Savage
    and wild, with loads of smoky berry aromas. This died down after about
    45 minutes in the glass or so, but what a glorious 45 minutes. No doubt
    the Riedel bordeaux glasses helped, but I just love that smell. Yum.
    It's still quite purplish, as one would expect from such a young wine,
    and the tannins are plenty puckerish. A really good value for cabernet,
    though I doubt this will make old bones. 

  .502  "chunky fruit"?   ;>  too funny.

    
    
    Well, I kind of liked,
    
    >>>missing fruitiness on the midpalate.
    
    ;-)
    
    
    -mike
    
    

	Ok...I'm at a friends house on Saturday night. About 15 adults, 17 kids
were all having a big Thanksgiving dinner. My friend Sue, who was one of the
people throwing this dinner, said, "If anyone wants some wine, I got this new
thing. It's a box-o-wine!" I couldn't stop laughing! 



Glen

    :-)
    
     The hostess where we are going asked me to bring wine for my dad, my
    cousin (her husband), my wife and myself. "The others can drink from
    our box of wine." :-)

    
    I take it doc, it won't be a boujolaise (sp)

    Don't let some of the Amador wines put you off - there's some gems in
    the pack.  I don't like the Montevina either, I found it oxidized and
    tired.
    
    Maybe if I enter last year's ZAP tasting notes before this year's
    tasting I'll point out some of the worthwhile zins from the Sierra
    foothills region.
    
    DougO

    >Maybe if I enter last year's ZAP tasting notes before this year's
    >tasting I'll point out some of the worthwhile zins from the Sierra
    >foothills region.
    
     Hmph. You were supposed to do that quite a number of months ago;
    however, you have this strange habit of letting customers get in the
    way. :-)
    
     I understand that there's a lot of excite wrt the 94 vintage. Should
    be a great tasting.

    Had a few wines over the holiday.
    
    With turkey dinner:
    
    93 Markham Napa Valley Chardonnay: pretty good stuff, but seems to be
    in an awkward stage right now. Best to cellar 3-6 months.
    
    90 Mommesin Savigny-les-beaune: totally closed down. I'm an idiot for
    opening this after the Santenay experience. I'll probably wait 3 years
    to open the Volnay. Grrr. Infanticide is a bad thing.
    
    with a porterhouse, garlic mashed yukon golds, petit pois:
    
    92 Rosenblum Sonoma Old Vines Zinfandel. Nice. Plummy, raspberry,
    chocolate. Smooth tannins. So good I had to finish the bottle. :-)
    
    with chicken breast stuffed with artichokes and cheese, wrapped in
    phyllo, roasted red potatoes and ratatouille:
    
    Eschol Chardonnay (by Trefethen): decent napa chard for a low price
    
    Georges Du Boeuf Viognier, vins de pays d'Oc 1994: an interesting
    change from the barrel fermented chardonnay treadmill. Nicely floral.
    
     Diane or Karen: if I put my hands anywhere near any other red '90
    burgs, please pinch me.

    
    	ooh, happy to oblige, doctah!
    
    	Dad served his usual Pouilly Fousse with Turkey Dinner, and
    	then a Warres Port (which I barely had one sip of).
    
    	I also had a glass of Lindemans Chardonnay Saturday night.  Not
    	bad, but also not my favorite.
    
    Karen
    

   I can't even remember what the heck all the wines were, but I know
   there was a kaliph chard, a french chard, an NZ sauvignon blanc,
   a cab/merlot blend, a Beaujolais <cringe>, red zin, bordeaux from
   St. Emilion, and red burgundy.  Sheesh.  That's a lot of wine for three
   people.  hoho.
 

   >I can't even remember what the heck all the wines were, [...]
   >That's a lot of wine for three people.  hoho.
    
     The relationship between the first line and the last line is left as
    an exercise to the reader. ;-)
    

   .513  ;>  i was busy.  and there were 17 people.  8^p

    
    I sampled Inniskillin's Ice Wine last night.  *Very* interesting.
    An enjoyable, though expensive, substitute for an after-dinner 
    liqueur.
    

	because i know that Andy will be curious (more curious than he
	already is) - i have to say the best wine i tasted yesterday 
	was an Australian wine.  
	(there were about a million wines, and i tasted only about 750,000,
	so this isn't very conclusive.)

	'93 Normans Chais Clarendon Shiraz

	yummer.

	not to be sneered at:

	'93 Grgich Hills Chardonnay (around 30 bucks a pop - no wonder)
	'94 Ridge Pagani Ranch Zinfandel

    
    	But if we don't like wine, can we sneer at even the good ones?
    

  .517  sure, if it makes you feel better.

    
    .516
    
    what!! no cold duck or Andre's to be found??? what kind of wine expo
    was this??? one with no class I assure you.

    What's the lastest in pouch technology?  I heard there were some really
    nifty no drip spouts coming out so as to keep the fridge clean when
    reaching for that next frosty glass of cabernet.  

    >What's the lastest in pouch technology? 
    
     I dunno. You're the guy with the ski racing suit. Why don't you tell
    us? :-)

    Ouch!  Quick, someone give me a mirror.  I think my nose is bleeding.  

    
    Gee Di!!!
    
    All those wines???
    
    
    Who'd they get to carry you out???
    
    :) 
    
    

    nice job, Erik. Thanks for giving us your impressions. And but a single
    gratuitous slam. Must be a record.

    >I may have been seeing resistance where there was none in people here 
    
     I think so. I will say, however, if you aim was to get me to think of
    you every time I uncorked a bottle of german wine, it worked
    marvelously. :-) I always say "here's to Erik." :-)
    
>"That these are barely known in the US is none the less a
>  scandalous reflection on the lack of interest that the American wine trade
>  has shown in fine German wines during recent years."
    
     Not to mention an indictment of the lack of attempts on the part of
    the german wine exporters to overcome the plonk image _they created_ by
    flooding the market with Liebfraumilch. They are happy to sell Black
    Tower and Blue Nun when they could instead be giving at least some level of
    coverage to better made wines. They appear to be satisfied with the
    cult following for the better stuff (which, in a way, is not all bad
    because the better german wines are almost always in short supply.)
    
    >Besides, some wine conversation is better than none at all.  
    
     No argument there.
    
     I'm really pleased to see you write a note that actually discusses
    wines that you like. Seriously.

  Erik, thanks for the pointer to Marty's - I'll have to check that out.
  If you find the phone number you referenced, that would be great, but
  it's no biggie.  Did you, by any chance, try any NZ Eiswein?  There
  was one there that was quite inexpensive, and when I asked the fellow
  about it, the reason became apparent - that being that they don't make
  the wine from grapes frozen on the vine; they freeze the juice afterwards.
  Hunh?, I thought. ;>  If that isn't cheating - I don't know what is!
  Not bad, though.

    
    	Erik and The Doctah getting along ... wow!!
    
    	Next thing you know, Glen will proverbially "stop sniffing Andy's
    	butt" in SOAPBOX.
    

    
    while I am definitely not a wine drinker, I enjoyed reading Erik's
    summation of his trip. very well written, Erik!

    
    	re: inexpensive Australian Chardonnays
    
    	I like the Wyndham Estates Chardonnay. 
    
    	I tried the Lindemanns (sp ?), but didn't really care for it.
    
    

    |Wyndham Estates Chardonnay.
    
    hey!  that's one they actually sell at my store!  me like.

    
    	;-)
    
    	I walked into a local store the other day to see what I
    	could find.  My husband and I had tried the Wyndham Estates
    	a few weeks earlier.  Lo and behold, the Wyndham Estates 
    	was the "Feature Wine of the week" !
    
    	

    Asprilla - the new 6.7 million pound Columbian player for Newcastle.
    
    Sheer poetry in motion as he came on for the last 16 minutes against
    Middlesbrough on Saturday.
    
    He is God.
    

RE: Asprilla - the new 6.7 million pound Columbian player for Newcastle.

What's that in kilograms?

    
    	About a buck two eighty.
    

  so he's a wine drinker, this guy?

    In footie culture, that would go against the grain.

    
    	1993?
    
    	Can't you afford something newer than that?
    
    	Might as well splurge once in awhile.
    

    Q:  What's 'tine's favourite wine?
    

    
    	Uh-oh ... I'll put an "INCOMING!!" here because I think you're
    	going to need one.
    
    	8^)
    

    
    	re: .545
    
    	Huuuuuunnnnnneyyyyyy, I want a Beeeeeeeeaaaammmmeeeerrrrr....
    
    
    :)

    
    She's rather fond of Louis Jadot Beaujolais Villages.
    
    Next question 8^)?
    

    
    
    
    	does that come in a box?
    
    

    Of course. A box that holds 12 bottles. /hth

    
    
    	errr ummm...thanks doc.
    
    

    uhoh!  Bill, what ARE you talking about?  
    
    And Debra, thanks for remembering.

    Yabbut, does it come in a pouch in a box with the handy dandy no-spill
    spout?  

    
    
    I still want to know how Di made it home that night after all those
    tastings...
    

    Sounds like a southern france red. Probably be ok for the price (but
    not unless you like hearty red wines.) Never heard of The American Wine 
    Exchange, so I can't vouch for them.

    >Yabbut, does it come in a pouch in a box with the handy dandy no-spill
    >spout?  
    
     And I suppose you use 90g discs for Ultimate, too...

    
    	What size disc should you use for Ultimate?  150g?
    
    	Never played it before.
    

    Yup, the big disk and that's what we played with, for ultimate that is. 

    >	What size disc should you use for Ultimate?  150g?
    
     Nekulturny! A 165g disc is the official size. 

    <---- yeah, that too.....

  thanks for posting that info, Erik.

  btw, i enjoyed a '93 Brauneberger Juffer Spatlese 
  on Saturday (from the Burgundy Cellar, in Shirley).

    
    {ahem}  
    
    You were in Shirley on Saturday?
    
    {tap, tap}
    

    
    	Deb, maybe she had it delivered from Shirley.
    

    
>    You were in Shirley on Saturday?

	no, i was there on Friday - late afternoon.  i was
	in Carlisle on Saturday though, i'm sure you'll be
	interested to know.

    well, tap, tap, i was in ayer that afternoon and no more than, say,
    3 miles from you.  tap, tap!

    
    Come on over this weekend, and I'll pick up some Sutter Home!
    

    blurgh!!!!!!!!!!

    they say that Sutter Home White Zin is aged for
    three whole days!

    
    Yummy 8^q!
    

>   re: Dianne

	Diane


>    	I'm glad you found the Brauneberger Juffer! I'll have to visit the

	well, i know it was the Kabinett you tried at the Expo, but
	i figured i'd give the Spat a whirl and everyone enjoyed it.
	in fact, that was the first recommendation of Richard, the
	proprietor.  i was pretty amazed at the coincidence. 

	i don't know how much of a variety you'll find there - Mike
	Wolinski could probably tell you more about their German
	wine selection - but it's a great place to check out.  they're
	very helpful with seeking out special items too.

	from Harvard?  oh my - well, i'm not sure of the best way.  it's
	right on 2A, if that helps any.

    
    110/111 in Harvard to the Ayer Circle to 2A west through Ayer, stay on
    2A west, pass my house, go another mile and a half, stop right before
    the Bull Run.
    
    

    
    	Party at Deb's house ... directions in -.1!!
    

    we had a nice chardonnay last nite with some raw tuna.
    forest glen '94.  very buttery.

    
    >we had a nice chardonnay last nite with some raw tuna.
    
    
    Followed by a nice dessert of raw jello????
    

    |Followed by a nice dessert of raw jello????
    
    no.  i had that for dessert the night before.
    
    last night we each had a little tab of feodora 
    chocolade.

    Raw tuna, mmmmmmm.  Was my phone busy when you called to see if I was
    hungry?  

    'twas busy.  oooo, there's this wonderful little seafood
    market in w. concord called 'twin seafood'.  their stuff
    is very fresh and the prices really aren't that bad.

    
    I was at a party Friday night at which there was a crate'o'chablis in
    the kitchen.  I toted my bottle of Chateau Larose-Trintaudon Haut-Medoc
    with me from room to room making new friends 8^).
    

  '93 Murphy-Goode Cab.  i tot it were excellent, speshly for the price.

    
    I was going to a party with some wine when I learned on the way there
    that this was going to be a beer keg and plastic beer cups party. So
    before arriving I dropped into a wine store to pick up something more
    suitable to be drunk from a pint-sized plastic cup. 
    
    They had some extremely cheap Slovenian wines there which, it turned
    out, weren't that bad at all! In fact their Zinfendal was very nice, we
    enjoyed it, thin plastic cup regardless. :-)
    

    
    
    Question
    
    Will the taste of a red table wine be affected adversely if it's put
    in the fridge and chilled??
    

    the wine will 'break down', causing a change in taste.

    And if you put it in the freezer, it'll be more difficult to get the
    wine to pour out of the bag.

    
    Thanks Bonnie...
    
    Ummmm.... what will the "change" be? Bad to worse? Or just different?
    
    Does the length of time in a fridge matter??

    the good wine molecules will become inert; the bad ones
    will flourish, causing a soury imbalance on the palate.
    this happens five minutes into refrigeration, give or 
    take a few seconds.

    
    Thanks Bonnie...

    
    >>> Ummmm.... what will the "change" be? Bad to worse? Or just
    different?
    
        Does the length of time in a fridge matter??
    
    
    
      Wine really doesn't "break down" when refrigerated. The main reason
     not to refrigerate red wine is that it mutes the nose and fruit and
     makes the alcohol the dominant factor in the taste. Some red wines
     like Beaujolais actually get better being slightly chilled. But in
     general you don't really want to refrigerate reds.
    
    
    -mike
     

    Me thinks Bonnie was having a chuckle @ Andy's expense.  I could be
    wrong though.  It is possible.  

    
    >Me thinks Bonnie was having a chuckle @ Andy's expense.  I could be
    >wrong though.  It is possible.
    
    Nothing that hasn't happened to me before... ;)
    

    andy, just be aware that refrigeration will break the
    wine's nose.  
    
    me, i leave my unfinished bottles of wine uncorked overnight.
    some wines actually taste better the second day when you do
    that.

    
    	Does that improve the bouquet or something?
    

    Had a few wines over vacation.
    
     winners: Chateau Woltner Howell Mtn Chardonnay 1993, Kenwood Jack
    London vyd zinfandel 1991, Chateau Olivier Graves 1989, Chateau
    Souverain Sonoma County Chardonnay 1992, Raymond chardonnay 1993,
    Chalk Hill Chardonnay 1993, J Lohr Estates Riverstone chardonnay 1994,
    Hogue Cellars Columbia Valley chardonnay 1994
    
     ok but nothing special: Steele Bien Nacido vyd pinot blanc 1993, La
    Crema reserve pinot noir 1993
    
     loser: some south african pinot blanc whose name I don't recall

    
    
    Rep .598  Erik
    
    >>>  Anyway, the wine was a 1990 "ULTRA-Late Harvest Selected Dried
    Berry" (just say TBA) Geyser Peak "Johannisberg Riesling" 
    (just say Riesling) from Mendocino County.
    
    
      I prefer they not use the TBA labeling myself and keep to a left
    coast one. To me TBA's come from Germany and not the left coast call
    me a purist. Also I prefer they label it Johannisberg Riesling since
    it isn't the same clone as the riesling grown in Alsace and Germany.
    It is considered by riesling fanatics to be an inferior clone and
    doesn't produce the same quality of wine as the clones used again
    in Alsace and Germany. 
                          
    
    -mike
    

>  Seems like you were in quite a mood for a high percentage of Chardonnay.  :-)
>  I guess that would fit the big picture though, isn't chardonnay the best
>  selling varietal in America right now, far ahead of any other?
    
     You buy what is available, and that's what they had that went with
    what we were eating. I was mildly surprised at the paucity of wine
    shops in Naples, which is by other standards a very upscale city. I did
    find a wine bar/cigar place by accident, but never got a chance to try
    anything they had. I noticed they had '89 La Tache for $350 a bottle.
    :-) Overall the selection was decidedly unimpressive in the area, and
    storage seems to be an issue.
    
>The label annoyed me a little.  Instead of
>  calling it a TBA, to eliminate the shame of having German on their label,
>  they instead called this an "ULTRA-Late Harvest" wine of "Selected dried
>  berries." C'mon now.  And instead of using degrees of Oechsle, they measured
>  the must in terms of brix (something only used in California I believe).  It
>  was 42 degree brix.  I have no idea how that translates to the more common
>  "(specific gravity - 1.00) x 1000" Oechsle standard.  What specific gravity
>  is 42 degree brix?? They also referred to their Riesling as a "Johannisberg
>  Riesling." I'm mixed on the use of that codeword phrase.  It is a completely
>  redundant synonym meaning simply a pure true Riesling varietal.  I think the
>  phrase started from the fact that many people feel (myself included) that
>  Riesling is at its best when grown in the Rheingau vineyards in the area of
>  Johannisberg, so that the phrase "Johannisberg Riesling" denotes a Riesling
>  "as grown in the Rheingau vineyards of Johannisberg." Perhaps the
>  differentiation is good in francocentric circles where Riesling has a bad
>  rap, as in, "Oh good, this isn't one of those cheap Riesling varieties." But
>  it is the same thing, a standard true Riesling.  Oh well.                   
    
    As quick to take offense as ever, eh, Erik? Why is it that you assume
    that the vineyard would be ashamed to use a german term on their label
    rather than allow that the vineyard might feel that their market would
    be confused by such a term or that they didn't feel that appropriating
    a term which has a legal meaning in another country were appropriate?
    How would you feel if they had, in fact, used the term TBA when in fact
    the number of non-botrytis affected berries exceeded that allowed by
    german law? And, I hesitate to mention, the use of such german terms
    was once common but it has since been outlawed. Perhaps a casual
    inquiry into the history of the region would be helpful in disabusing
    you of the notion that the wine industry is out to get the germans.
    You don't have a web site on this, do you? :-)
    
     And why are you bellyaching about their use of brix instead of
    oechsle? Who in california routinely announces oechsle? Who in
    california that bothers to announce ripeness fails to use brix? If they
    had borrowed french terms you'd be crying about how they copied the
    french and how francocentric it all was. They didn't copy the germans
    and you whine about that, too? How quaint. Even the austrians, who
    share the terms BA and TBA with the germans, do not use the oechsle
    scale.
    
     And the use of terms like "Johannisberg Riesling" and "white
    riesling" are used to differentiate between real riesling (the riesling
    of the rhine) and other grapes with similar names such as grey riesling
    (not a riesling at all) emerald riesling (a cross of riesling and
    muscadelle) and sylvaner (which can be sold as riesling though is
    frequently named "riesling-sylvaner" or "franken riesling.")
    
     /hth
    
     

  >Your description of Johannisberg Riesling is exactly the way I saw it too.  I
  >assumed it was an inferior hybrid based on my own samplings as well.
  >However, I read in several places (OXford and the Southeby Guide to Fine
  >Wines) that Johannisberg is in fact just a synonym for the exact same plant.
    
    Correct. Johannisberg Riesling is the same riesling that is used for
    the fine german wines. It doesn't make the same kind of wines in
    California for two very good reasons: the soils in Kaliph is way
    different than the soils of Germany, and the climate could hardly be
    less comparable. In California, grapes ripen every year. In Germany,
    the climate is such that each year stamps its signature on the harvest;
    in some years no beerenauslesen or trockenbeerenauslesen are produced,
    and precious little auslesen. In other years, there may be little in
    the way of QbA (like 1976). This is because german vineyards are at the
    northern limits of the vine. The character of such wines is certainly
    going to be different than the character of wine made from California
    grapes. In the case of riesling in particular, it will be routinely
    superior (when the grapes ripen, at least.)
    
     Going back to the synonym thing. The following are all synonyms of
    riesling: Rheinriesling (Austria), Riesling Renano (Italy), Rjanski
    Rizling (former country of Yugoslavia), and Rhine Riesling (Australia).
    

    >I don't know what that equates too, now why couldn't they use the more
    >common Oechsle scale?" 
    
     I don't know why you think it's more common. Neither France nor Italy
    use it. Even Austria, which is similar in many regards to Germany, uses 
    the KMW scale (Klosterneuburger Mostwaage).  
    
    >I've seen the Oechsle scale used most everywhere in the literature I've
    >read, so I assumed it was the standard.  
    
     Well, if you're reading wine books on german wines... :-)
    
    >Are you saying that it (likewise) is only
    >used by one country like brix? 
    
     I don't know whether any other countries use it; but it's not like
    everybody but the US uses it.
    
    >What's the big deal about everyone agreeing to one unified standard? 
    
     You're asking the wrong guy. :-)
    

    
    
    >>>Johannisberg Riesling
    
      I didn't mean to say that J.R. wasn't really riesling. From what I
     have read and heard from producers in Kaliph and Washington state is
     that the vast majority of wine labeled J.R. is from an older clone
     that is considered inferior to the clones currently grown in Alsace
     and Germany. There are some producers especially in Washington like
     Hogue that are using the new clones. There is a big push in Washington
     to bring back riesling as a varietal and to incease its production.
    
    
    -mike
    

    ya know, you people make entirely too much out of this wine thing, what
    with baume scales, legs, estate bottlings, varietals, and all that
    cr*p.
    
    you need to use Bob's rules of wine:
    
    	0) do I have a bottle of win?
    	1) does the bottle have a screw top?
    	2) can I get the top off?
    	3) is the bottle empty?
    	4) if it ain't, can I get the thing up to my face without spilling
    	   the contents all over the brown bag?
    	5) are the cops coming?
    	6) is the sidewalk comfortable enough to sleep on?
    	7) can I remember my name?
    	8) if 7) is yes, go to step 0)
    	9) if 7) is no, stop.
    

     I've occasionally had bottles with some goop at the top. All but one
    of them were ok, though they weren't cellared for more than a couple of
    years after the goop was discovered. If the ullage is ok and the amount
    of goop doesn't increase (wipe it off so if it reappears you can be
    sure to notice it) then it's probably worth risking. Sometimes a short
    term wide temperature variation can cause such leakage. (Like buying
    the wine on a hot day- it can leak in the car on the way home.)

   if i noticed some goop on a pricey Sauternes, i'd prolly return it.
   just so i wouldn't be having little anxiety attacks about it for
   however many years it was cellared.

   >if i noticed some goop on a pricey Sauternes, i'd prolly return it.
    
    If I'd gotten it nearby, I might as well. But if it's going to be a
    trek... well, time is money, too.

"We will slime no wine before its time."

				- O. Welles

  .614  well, see, that's the difference - my time is pretty much
	worthless. ;>  and i like driving.

    Well, gee- can you loan me some? :-)

    
    	Or at least give him a ride somewhere.
    

    Ooh, er!

    
    	You know, I was going to say "Ooh err not intended" but I
    	didn't think it was necessary.
    
    	And then I remembered you were back from vacation.  8^)
    

   if the doctah hadn't said it, i would have. 

    Prince Florent de Merode Ladoix les Chaillots 1993- nice, berry nose,
    with a tannic and acidic structure that dominates the fruit at present- 
    needs time. A good value for red burgundy.

  >What I like about the wine labels and the English translations is how
  >wonderfully literal the meanings are and how EASY they are to understand.
  >You right away know exactly what this wine is even if you forget about any
  >special wine nomenclature.  
    
     Assuming you know german. :-)
    
  >DEUTSCHER TAFELWEIN - simple table wine.  Consumed primarily right around
  >	 where it is grown in Germany, it is for their simple everyday
  >	 enjoyment.  It comes from one of five broad Tafelwein regions, is
  >	 never allowed to bear a vineyard name, and may be chaptalized. 
    
     It may also includes grapes grown outside of Germany.
    
    

    All good info -
    
    but with regard to France, esp Bordeaux,, a little known fact is that 
    the classified growths are indeed sometimes reclassified - the most famous
    classification being that of 1855, but as recently as the mid-1980s
    several estates were promoted and several other demoted, and there's
    another round of that going on right now.  The Bordelais certainly
    recognize that the terroir is not all - estate management and
    vinification techniques also significantly affect the quality of the
    product and thus estate classifications will change to reflect that.
    
    DougO